1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of I Heart Radio 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: In the more than two years since I've been putting 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Noble Blood out into the world, by far, the most 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: frequently requested subject for me to cover is the Hungarian 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: countess Elizabeth Bathory. Chances are if you're a fan of 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: historical trivia or true crime corners of the Internet, you 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: at least have a passing familiarity with Bathory. She's often positioned, 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: including by the Guinness Book of World Records, as the 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: most prolific female serial killer of all time. In the 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: centuries since Elizabeth Bathory's life, her story has traveled as 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: folklore and word of mouth, horror story, as pop history, 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: and now spooky Internet irreverence. The basic version of the 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: narrative is that Elizabeth Bathory was a wealthy and powerful 15 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: countess in sixteenth and seventeenth century Hungary, and that her 16 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: estates became nightmare dens of sadistic torture that she inflicted 17 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: first on her servant girls and then eventually as time 18 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: went on and the daughters of noblemen too young girls 19 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: who had been sent to her palaces to learn basic 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: courtly etiquette. Stories of Elizabeth Bathory often include gruesome details 21 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: of her torture. That she would take a girl and 22 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: strip her naked before covering her with honey and sending 23 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: her out into the fields to be devoured by insects. 24 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: Bathory would stick needles beneath fingernails, cut off flesh, whip 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: servants with stinging nettles, or forced girls naked into freezing 26 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: ice baths. There was seemingly no end to Elizabeth Bathori's depravity, 27 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: nor to her creative means of indulging her sadism. Most 28 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: popular culture depictions of Elizabeth Bathory also include one very 29 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: specific element that the countess not only murdered young girls, 30 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: but that she bathed in their blood, believing that it 31 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: would keep her forever young and beautiful. It's the perfect detail, 32 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: incredibly visual and cinematic. Can't you picture it now, the 33 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: aging Countess, vain and ever fearful, lowering herself into a 34 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: golden tub filled with crimson. It gives her motivation for 35 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: the murders beyond insanity or mere sadism. It makes the 36 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: story unforgettable. If you know the name Elizabeth Bathory, at all. 37 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: It's because, you know, Elizabeth Bathory, the bloody serial killer, 38 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: the blood countess. But what if we been wrong about 39 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: her this entire time? What if Elizabeth Bathory was completely innocent. 40 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: In recent years, a few scholars have attempted to reframe 41 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Bathory not as a murderous but as a victim 42 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: of circumstances, manipulated by the Hungarian crown and the encroaching 43 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Habsburg power, punished for being a wealthy and powerful woman 44 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: in the wrong family, conveniently disposed of on trumped up charges. 45 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: Those scholars suggest that, as so often happens, hundreds of 46 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: years of rumors and exaggeration have taken root, and when 47 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: a story is better than the truth, well that story 48 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: is almost impossible to kill. Now, personally, I'm not certain 49 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 1: I'm fully convinced one way or the other. I think 50 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: the problem with certain pieces of evidence is that they 51 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: can be explained reasonably in either direction. But to put 52 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: the case into modern legal parlance, there's certainly reasonable doubt, 53 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: and I think it's worth trying to understand why maybe 54 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: a famous historical monster might have just been a woman 55 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: all along. I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is noble blood. 56 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: In the sixteenth century, when Elizabeth Bathory was born, Transylvania 57 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: was a principality within the Kingdom of Hungary. The Holy 58 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: Roman Empire was a looming neighbor ruled by the powerful 59 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: Habsburg family. At certain periods in history, Hungary and the 60 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: Holy Roman Empire would have the same monarch. That's what 61 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: the Habsburgs certainly wanted to consolidate their power, for their 62 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: leader not only to be emperor but also king of Hungary, 63 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: and why not Lithuania and Poland as well. Transylvan Out 64 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: was a pebble in their shoe, a stronghold for Eastern 65 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: independence from Western Habsburg influence of these little principalities, and 66 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: the Bathories were one of the most influential families across 67 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: those principalities. Elizabeth born August seventh, fifteen sixty was a 68 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: product of an illustrious lineage. Her paternal uncle was the Voivode, 69 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: or highest ranking official of Transylvania. Her father was a baron. 70 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's mother was also a Bathory, and on that side, 71 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: her grandfather was a previous by vote of Transylvania, and 72 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: her uncle, Stephen Bathory, was the King of Poland and 73 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: Grand Duke of Lithuania. Some here that Elizabeth's parents were 74 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: both Bathories, and we've that into their Halloween story about her, 75 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: that being in bred was the source of her mental illness, 76 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: her sadism. There were reports of her having epilepsy in 77 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: her childhood. Surely that too, some believe is the result 78 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: of her parents blood being too close. Fortunately for Elizabeth, 79 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: her parents were from two extremely distant branches of the family, 80 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: though the name had been preserved. Her mother and father 81 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: were separated from their last common ancestor by seven generations 82 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: and two hundred years. But Elizabeth was sickly as a 83 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: young child, prone to seizures that were diagnosed in the 84 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: sixteenth century as falling sickness. Some say that one of 85 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: the treatments involved opening a cut and letting the blood 86 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: of a healthy person enter the body, and so that too, 87 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: is used as a morbid little detail to foreshadow Elizabeth's 88 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: alleged blood lust. The rumors about Elizabeth Bathory's life are countless, 89 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: and I've found that most sources on the Internet either 90 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: willfully forego actual evidence or just except that Elizabeth today 91 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: lives more as folklore than an actual historical figure. One 92 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: of the rumors is that when Elizabeth was thirteen, she 93 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: had an affair with a peasant boy and gave birth 94 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: to a child. There's no evidence of that. What we 95 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: do know is that when she was ten years old, 96 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: she was engaged to Count Ference Nadashti, who was five 97 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: years older than her and from one of the most 98 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: powerful noble families over in the Kingdom of Hungary. The 99 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: pair were married when Elizabeth was fifteen and Ference was twenty, 100 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: at an event with four thousand and five hundred guests 101 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: in attendance. We don't know if the pair were in love, 102 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: but they seemed to at least like each other well 103 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: enough to have five known children, three of whom survived 104 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: to adulthood. But the purpose of their marriage, like most 105 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: early modern marriages, wasn't happiness. This marriage codified an incredibly 106 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: lucrative allotans, one that would make the couple two of 107 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: the most powerful figures in Eastern Europe at the time, 108 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: with enough the states scattered across Hungary that an army 109 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: could traverse the country by using their properties as protective 110 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: lily pads. If it's difficult for you to visualize the 111 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: very complicated geopolitics at the time. Think of Transylvania and 112 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: Hungary as a square rectangle situation. All squares are rectangles, 113 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: but not all rectangles are squares. Transylvania was a part 114 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: of Hungary, but there were parts of the Kingdom of 115 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: Hungary that existed outside of Transylvania. At the start of 116 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds, when Elizabeth was reaching middle age, Habsburg 117 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: Emperor Rudolph the Second inherited and claimed both the titles 118 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: of Holy Roman Emperor and King of Hungary. There was 119 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: so much resentment and an anti Hapsburg independence movie in 120 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: Transylvania that eventually forced Rudolph to abdicate Hungarian throne and 121 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: give it to his brother Matthias. It was still in 122 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: the family, but hopefully people would get less mad if 123 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: it was more of a nominally separate kingdom. In sixteen 124 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: o four, after twenty nine years of marriage, Count Ference 125 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: died while off fighting the Ottoman invasion of Hungary, and 126 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Bathory became one of the wealthiest and most powerful 127 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: women in the kingdom. She was sitting on incredibly important 128 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: land that she inherited from her husband's powerful Hungarian family. 129 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: States that she was already more than comfortable managing. She 130 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 1: had managed them for decades while her husband was off fighting. 131 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: The properties were vast, and she was so wealthy that 132 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: even King Matthias the Second was in debt to her. Meanwhile, 133 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: over in Transylvania, her nephew, Gabor Bathory was being crowned prince. 134 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: With Elizabeth's wealth and rank, Gabor seemed like an even 135 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: bigger threat to the Habsburgs of Hungary. Her estates were huge, 136 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: stretching from the west to the southeast of the Hungarian Kingdom. 137 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: If the Bathories wanted, Elizabeth could grant Gobor safe passage 138 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: across the entire kingdom, giving him access to possibly claiming 139 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: the Polish throne or even the Hungarian throne. The Bathories 140 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: were a threat. This is the larger context in which 141 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Bathory was accused of terrible things. On December, the 142 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: Palatine of Hungary, Gregory Thorzo, stormed into Elizabeth Bathories castle 143 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: with a regiment of guards. The Palatine is the highest 144 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: ranking official of the country, think of him almost like 145 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: a prime minister, and had been ordered by King Matthias 146 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: to investigate the terrible rumors about the widow Elizabeth Bathory. 147 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: Thorso had succeeded in his task and then some, eventually 148 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: gathering hundreds of testimonies, all of which were in agreement 149 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: that Elizabeth Bathory was a murderer. Thorso would right that 150 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: he burst into the castle and found Elizabeth Bathory in 151 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: the act of torture, with one young girl already dead 152 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: at her feet and another strung up and being flayed. 153 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: But in truth, according to the documentation of the secretary 154 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: at the time, Bathory was actually just eating dinner. It's 155 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: hard to find where the stories of Elizabeth Bathory murderer began. 156 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: One visiting priest had written to the king back when 157 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's husband was still alive, saying that he saw the 158 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: two of them being noticeably cruel to their servants. The 159 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: local Lutheran pastor, Janis Picenus seemed to delight in accusing 160 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: Elizabeth of witchcraft and cannibalism. He even wrote to Thurso 161 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: saying that Elizabeth would transform into a black ut and 162 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,479 Speaker 1: that she would stalk him at night. His clearly exaggerated 163 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: outrage doesn't seem particularly easy to explain, at least from 164 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: a religious perspective. Though Elizabeth's husband was Lutheran, Elizabeth herself 165 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: remained a lifelong Calvinist, just like her mother had been. 166 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: But even still, she didn't renounce Lutheranism or hinder the 167 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: religious freedom of the Lutherans on her land. Her records 168 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: as a landowner indicate that she built schools and educated ministers, 169 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: and supported Lutheranism to the healthy extent that the local 170 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: pastor should have been content with. Still, it's worth noting 171 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: that before Thorso's investigation into Bathory, there were no formal 172 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: legal complaints made against her at any time from either 173 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: anyone on her estate or in her community, and this 174 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: was during a period when the Hungarian legal system kept 175 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: meticulous records of all grapes and grievances. It was just 176 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: rumors that swirled around her that motivated Thorso to move 177 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: on Bathory. King Matthias authorized Thorzo to investigate the rumors 178 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: around Bathory at the start of six and the Palatine 179 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: sent two notaries out into the Hungarian territories to gather 180 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: whatever evidence they could. By October there were fifty two witnesses. Later, 181 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: after Bathori's arrest, there would be over three hundred. The 182 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: stories were damning Elizabeth Bathory, they said, like to torture 183 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: young girls, that she mutilated even bit them, that she 184 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: beat and stabbed and starved them. Almost all of the testimony, 185 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: it's worth pointing out, was word of mouth hearsay from 186 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: people who had heard of Bathoris abuse, or from people 187 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: who had had relatives who had entered service at the 188 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: castle but who had never emerged. Elizabeth was arrested that 189 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: night December in her castle, along with four of her servants, 190 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: her so called accomplices. Thorso tortured all of the servants 191 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: into confessing to assisting the countess with various murders, although 192 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: all four gave differing numbers of victims, ranging from twenty 193 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: to sixty. One of the later witnesses would allege that 194 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: an officer had told him that he had seen a ledger, 195 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: the Countess's own ledger of her murders, and that they 196 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: numbered in these six hundreds. Under torture, one of the 197 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: countess's servants gave Thorso the location of a young girl's 198 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: body buried on the estate. Before the torture, the servant 199 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: had maintained that the young girl was one of eight 200 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: who had died of the plague earlier that fall. Bristling 201 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: with excitement, Thurso and his men dug up the body, 202 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: still fairly well preserved, having been buried in the cold 203 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: dirt of autumn. There's a hoisted the decomposing, play gritten 204 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: corpse onto a wooden platform in front of the castle, 205 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: and he invited all the servants and noblemen of neighboring 206 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: estates to come and see, Come, be witness see the 207 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: naked tortured body of one of the Countess's victims. Elizabeth 208 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: herself was forced to stand there in full view a 209 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: punishment of public humiliation. Thorso shouted at her to look 210 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: at her poor victim. Though the body was more than 211 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: two months old, Thorso claimed that it was fresh, which 212 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: no doubt colored the opinions of onlookers when it came 213 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: to make their statements about Elizabeth's brutal torture. After all, 214 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: they had seen the Countess standing next to a clearly 215 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: mutilated body. Though King Matthias urged Thurzo to follow the 216 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: strictest legal procedures, Thurso ignored the wreck. He claimed to 217 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: spare the Bathory family the shame of a public trial 218 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: and to preempt the order of execution. The servants that 219 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: had been arrested, were tried and quickly put to death. 220 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: But though Elizabeth had private hearings, she never had the 221 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: large public trial that would have been standard at the time. 222 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: She wasn't permitted to make a defense or speak on 223 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: her own behalf. There was never a sentencing. Thurzo continued 224 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: to claim that it was a mercy that if she 225 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: went to trial she would be put to death instead. 226 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: Without a verdict, she was merely detained under house arrest 227 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: at the castle for the rest of her life. The 228 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: rumors would only continue and grow. The thorso wrote to 229 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: the king and said that she was bricked into a 230 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: locked room. Visiting priests at the castle would write and 231 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: remark that she actually moved freely about the castle, at 232 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: least until she died three years later at age fifty four. 233 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: The story could be complete there. Elizabeth Bathori as a murderess, 234 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: for whom the extent of her crimes will never be 235 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: fully known. A woman who was cruel and sadistic, who 236 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: killed as many servants as she could because she could 237 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: protected by her wealthy and powerful family. Only in the end, 238 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: when she was no longer fully protected, her wealth and 239 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: privilege at least allowed her to remain comfortable under house arrest, 240 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: guilty and disgraced, but not hanged by the neck. But 241 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: in recent years, Hungarian scholars in particular, have found that 242 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: Bathori's case is less cut and dry than some people 243 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: might believe. I don't know if there's a smoking gun 244 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: one way or the other, but I think it's interesting 245 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: and important enough to examine that there might be more 246 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: gray area than originally meets the eye. Doctor Irma Shadeki 247 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: Kardo's posits that the quote I witness testimony of the 248 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: hundreds of witnesses against Elizabeth Bathory are less compelling than 249 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: they might originally seem. For one thorso had restricted his 250 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: investigation only to the parts of the Hungarian Kingdom where 251 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: he had full power and where many of the tenants 252 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: were beholden to him. He obtained confessions under torture. The 253 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: vast vast majority of the testimony gathered is hearsay. There 254 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: are no firsthand accounts of anyone who was actually abused 255 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: by the Countess. Much of the later testimony came after 256 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: the witnesses would have seen a decomposing corpse on a 257 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: platform with Elizabeth standing beside it, while Thorzo was shouting 258 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: that this was one of her victims. I think that 259 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: would buy us anyone a little, at least subconsciously. But again, 260 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: though Thorso claimed that his lack of public trial was 261 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: to protect Elizabeth, it also conveniently prevented any recorded defense. 262 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: Her disgrace, and the rippling disgrace of the entire Bathory 263 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: family was irreconcilable. It was also fairly convenient for Thorso 264 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: that his own son, Imre, happened to be the same 265 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: age as Elizabeth's son, Paul. Paul, being the scion of 266 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: two powerful families, would easily eclipse Thorso's son when it 267 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: came to Hungarian politics, unless, of course, the Bathories family 268 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: fortunes changed. Dr shadeky Cardo's also raises a fascinating point 269 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: that many of the so called tortures that Bathory was 270 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: reported to have engaged in were actually well recorded medical 271 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: procedures for the sixteen hundreds. In Transylvania, where Bathory had 272 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: grown up, in the seventeenth century, it was considered the 273 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: duty of landowners and nobles to provide for the welfare 274 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: of their tenants and servants. The lady of the house 275 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: was responsible for the women and children. According to Schadecki Cardo's, 276 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's letters aren't blood chilling manifestoes of a sadistic murderer, 277 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: their normal, reasonable business management. Elizabeth writes, petitioning the King 278 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: for her tenants, she installed in each of her estates 279 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: herbalists and healers, and appointed the same personal healer that 280 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: she used for her own children for her underlings. Coming 281 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,239 Speaker 1: from Transylvania, Elizabeth was familiar with a more hands on 282 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: approach to herbal medicine and healing methods that would have 283 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: been unfamiliar to the local people when she moved with 284 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: her husband to western Hungary. One of Elizabeth's most famous, 285 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: quote unquote accomplices was a woman named Anna Darbuglia, a 286 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: Croatian midwife and healer and one of the few women 287 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: who performed rudimentary surgeons on her patients so that the 288 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: female patients wouldn't have to be treated by men. It 289 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: would have been a rare and strange sight, maybe for 290 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: some to see a woman doing something like blood letting, 291 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: even though blood letting at the time was a conventionally 292 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: accepted medical procedure. The medical texts of a contemporary Transylvanian 293 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: doctor Fence Papa peris contain a number of procedures that, 294 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: to the untrained eye, or to an eye mistrustful of 295 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: a woman holding a knife, might look suspiciously like torture. 296 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: Necrotic tissue needed to be cut from healthy flesh to 297 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: prevent infection from spreading. Maggots were frequent. Blight boils and 298 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: abscesses had to be lanced. Wounds needed to be cauterized 299 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: with red hot irons. For some ailments, hot cupping was recommended, 300 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: and for those with fever or rubonic plague, a weak, 301 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: sweating body would be shocked with an ice cold bath. 302 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: Singing nettles were an old wives cure for rheumatism and arthritis. 303 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: Some seamstresses suffered from boils under their nail beds, a 304 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: condition known as finger nail poison. The treatment was lancing 305 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: finger tips under the nails with needles. Hearing those treatments 306 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: out of context, and particularly if they were unfamiliar or 307 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: gasped done by a woman, you can almost see where 308 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: the stories of torture might have begun. Shadeki Cardos also 309 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: points out that the deaths that Dorzo ascribes to Elizabeth 310 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: happened to coincide with outbreaks of disease. The eight girls 311 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: whom Thurzo built his case around had possibly actually died 312 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: of the plague. They had been quarantined together and treated 313 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: by two of Elizabeth's servants, and they had died when 314 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: Elizabeth wasn't even at the castle. Elizabeth was frequently touring 315 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: between her estates. The pace and pre neticism with which 316 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: the rumors of Elizabeth Bathery's guilt took hold of the 317 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: Countryside could also possibly point to Thurso's haste to make 318 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: her guilt quote common knowledge. Common knowledge was accepted evidence 319 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: in court at the time. Elizabeth's confinement meant that her 320 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: relatives were able to take control of her valuable properties 321 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: a few of her son in law's new in advance 322 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: of impending quote surprise arrest. They even helped him to 323 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: arrange it. King Matthias's debts that he owed to Elizabeth 324 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: were conveniently dissolved. I don't know exactly where I stand 325 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: when it comes to a proclamation that Elizabeth Bathory was 326 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: either a sadistic monster or completely innocent a framed woman. Personally, 327 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: I tend to find it a little easier to believe 328 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: that a few hundred people living in close and unhygienic 329 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: quarters at the start of the sixteen hundreds were more 330 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: likely to have died from the plague than from a 331 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: cruel and unusual Lady Dracula. People were suspicious of powerful women, 332 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: and especially of powerful women with regional and religious differences. 333 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: Rumors were easy to spread, and Elizabeth Bathi's downfall financially 334 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: benefited many people in power. But on the other hand, 335 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: I also don't find it difficult to believe that a wealthy, 336 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: noble woman might have been exceedingly cruel, abusive, maybe even 337 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: deadly in her treatment of servants. You'll notice that throughout 338 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: this I didn't mention the whole bathing in blood thing. Well, 339 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: that's because that's objectively a complete fabrication. There were absolutely 340 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: no contemporary witnesses who alleged even rumors of Elizabeth bathing 341 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: in the blood of young women to preserve her own youth, 342 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: or doing anything with their blood. That rumor came over 343 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: a hundred years later during the Counter Reformation. In seventeen 344 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: twenty nine, the Hungarian Jesuit priests Laslow Taroshi used the 345 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: by then infamous saga of Elizabeth Bathory as a parable 346 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: to discuss the dangers of becoming Protestant. He wrote that 347 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: she was a Catholic who had broken bad and converted 348 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: to Lutheranism, and that unleashed in her a blood lust 349 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: that caused her, this demented Protestant to sadistically torture servants 350 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: and bathe in young blood in order to try to 351 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: stay young herself. It's a compelling detail, and kudos to 352 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: Taroshi for his imaginative creativity that still persists in the 353 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: popular culture today. But it's just not true. Elizabeth wasn't 354 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: even ever Lutheran. She was never elapsed Catholic. As I mentioned, 355 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: she was a lifelong Calvinist. So no blood lust. But 356 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: as for the murders, it's up to you to decide 357 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: what's to and what's merely rumor. That's the saga of 358 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Bathory. But keep listening after a brief sponsor break 359 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: to hear a little bit more about her legacy. Lists 360 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: of pop history fun facts are littered with the type 361 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: of historical anecdote that seems like it should be true, 362 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: and so these anecdotes are just repeated often enough that 363 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: they become fact. One of those seems like it might 364 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: as well be true is the idea that, upon hearing 365 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: the rumors of this Eastern European countess from Transylvania, an 366 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: Irish author named Bram Stoker, while staying on the misty 367 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: northern coast of Scotland, was inspired to write Us to 368 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: worry about a man who sucked blood from others to survive. 369 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: His book, of course, became Dracula. Now there's no real 370 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: consensus on whether Bathory directly or even indirectly inspired Stoker, 371 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: but Bathory did inspire another recent character in pop culture. 372 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: In the video game Resident Evil Village, there's a glamorous 373 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 1: woman with a large black hat and sweeping white gown 374 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: who stands at over nine ft tall. The character is 375 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: named Countess Alcina or Lady Dimitrescu, and she became an 376 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: almost instant fan favorite. A villainist who rules over a 377 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: feudal peasantry with allegations of murder and cannibalism swirling around 378 00:27:50,800 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: her incredibly glamorous and incredibly tall person. Noble Blood is 379 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild 380 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: from Aaron Mankey. The show is written and hosted by 381 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: Dana Schwartz. Executive producers include Aaron Mankey. Alex Williams and 382 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick. The show is produced by rema il Keali 383 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: and Trevor Young. Noble Blood is on social media at 384 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: Noble Blood Tales, and you can learn more about the 385 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: show over at Noble Blood Tales dot com. For more 386 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, 387 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 388 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: M