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Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. While we're hard at work

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Speaker 1: prepping our next season on some of the must read

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Speaker 1: psychology books of twenty twenty five, I thought you might

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Speaker 1: appreciate hearing some of the fun conversations I get to

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Speaker 1: have with smart folks outside of this show, And one

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Speaker 1: of my recent favorites was the chat I had on

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Speaker 1: the Ritual podcast. Ritual is an incredibly cool guy. He's

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Speaker 1: gotten to chat with an amazing array of people on

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Speaker 1: his show, from doctors to scientists, to sports stars to explorers.

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Speaker 1: My conversation with Rich covered a lot of ground, and

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Speaker 1: get ready because this episode does last a couple hours,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think we left any happiness stone unturned.

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Speaker 2: If you enjoy what you hear, you should check out

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Speaker 2: Rich's other interviews on the Rich Role podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can download it wherever you get your shows. We

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Speaker 1: as a species of all always been obsessed with happiness.

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Speaker 1: The culture apparatus that we surround ourselves with is telling

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Speaker 1: us all the wrong things to do right. Go for money,

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Speaker 1: go for status, Just buy something, change your circumstances. You'll

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Speaker 1: feel happier. And what we know is like those are wrong.

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Speaker 1: We go after those things at the expense of social

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Speaker 1: connection time for rest. We kind of forego those great

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Speaker 1: things in the service of stuff that's not going to

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Speaker 1: make us feel good. I think if these strategies is

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Speaker 1: almost like preventative mental health. So you can have your

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Speaker 1: little O Lacarte snacklist of different strategies you use to

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Speaker 1: feel happier, and if you can manage to turn them

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Speaker 1: into habits, to put them into effect, you'll wind up

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Speaker 1: reaping the benefits.

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Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, Welcome to the podcast, today's version of which

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Speaker 3: is focused entirely on happiness. My guest for this very

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Speaker 3: broad and somewhat elusive subject matter is doctor Lori Santos,

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Speaker 3: who is a professor of psychology and the head of

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Speaker 3: Silomon College at Yale University, where she teaches psychology and

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Speaker 3: the good Life. This is not new terrain for this show,

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Speaker 3: but I think this conversation goes to some pretty interesting,

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Speaker 3: new and important places when it comes to the many

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Speaker 3: ways in which we misunderstand happiness and why we so

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Speaker 3: often behave in ways at cross purposes. With getting it.

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Speaker 3: We discuss what gets in our way specifically, and of

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Speaker 3: course the many things that we can do actionable tools.

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Speaker 3: Laurie calls rewirables to engender more happiness in our lives

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Speaker 3: more often. You can read up on her online at

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Speaker 3: doctor Loriisantos dot com, where you will also find her

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Speaker 3: fabulous podcast, The Happiness Lab, as well as a variety

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Speaker 3: of courses, courses for kids, for parents, courses for everyone,

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Speaker 3: and there's even one for teachers interested in teaching happiness,

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Speaker 3: which is pretty cool. So with that, let's do the thing.

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Speaker 3: This is me and doctor Lori Santos. I want to

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Speaker 3: start with some real basic stuff. We can't talk about

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Speaker 3: happiness without having a working understanding of what it actually is.

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Speaker 3: So what is your thesis. I'm sure people ask you

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Speaker 3: all the time you teach happiness, so tell me what

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Speaker 3: it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I use the very limited definition that lots of

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Speaker 1: psychologists use. This comes from Sonya Lubermerski and her colleagues, right.

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Speaker 1: The idea is you think about being happy in your

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Speaker 1: life and with your life, the sort of two parts

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Speaker 1: of happiness. So being happy in your life is the

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Speaker 1: fact that you experience lots of positive emotion or decent

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Speaker 1: ratio of positive emotions to negative emotions. You have contentment

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Speaker 1: and laughter and joy in these things, and you have

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Speaker 1: a nice ratio of those with the normal negative stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know, anger or sadness, anxiety, overwhelm whatever. The key

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Speaker 1: there is you're not getting fully rid of negative emotions,

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Speaker 1: but you want the ratio to be decent. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of being happy in your life. But being happy with

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Speaker 1: your life is the fact that you think your life

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Speaker 1: is going well. These are what's often called the kind

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Speaker 1: of affective and the cognitive parts of happiness. How your

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Speaker 1: life feels and how you think it's going. But how

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Speaker 1: you think your life is going is the answer to

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Speaker 1: the question, all things considered, how satisfied am I with

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Speaker 1: my life? Do I have purpose, to have a sense

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Speaker 1: of meaning? Does it feel like something to be here?

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Speaker 1: And the strategies that I talk about in my course

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Speaker 1: and on my podcast, really what they're trying to do

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Speaker 1: is boost both of those. You're kind of feeling good

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Speaker 1: in your life and you sort of think your life

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Speaker 1: is going well, then by and large I'd be saying

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Speaker 1: that you're happy.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm curious around how you got interested in

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Speaker 3: this field to begin with. Was there a catalyst or

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Speaker 3: what ignited your passion around this subject of happiness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I've been a nerdy psychologist basically forever, like

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Speaker 1: since I was a kid, I was interested in people

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Speaker 1: in psychology, but spent most of my career studying animals,

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Speaker 1: all kinds of different stuff. And then my interest in

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Speaker 1: happiness started when I took on this new role at Yale.

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Speaker 1: I became this thing called the head of college, which

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Speaker 1: is like strange el speak for a faculty member who

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Speaker 1: lives on campus with students. Like I moved into this

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Speaker 1: big mansion in the middle of this dorm and thought

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Speaker 1: I was going to be around lots of college students

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Speaker 1: like partying and having this amazing time, And really what

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Speaker 1: I just saw was the college student mental health crisis.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Most of my day was like students who were experiencing

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Speaker 1: acute anxiety, suicidality, panic attacks. And I was like, this

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Speaker 1: is like, not okay, how long ago that this was?

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Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen was when I first started up pre.

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Speaker 3: Pandemic, Like we're in a different world now.

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Speaker 1: I think things have gotten worse, you know, But what

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Speaker 1: I was seeing on the ground was just shocking, And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't what I remember from college, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: what you kind of hear in the media of a

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Speaker 1: bunch of snowflakes. These were students having like acute crises,

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Speaker 1: and so I got interested in the happiness work because

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Speaker 1: I was like, somebody needs to do something to help

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Speaker 1: these students. It started with me being again like a

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Speaker 1: nerdy professor, thinking I'll make a new class, right, I'll

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Speaker 1: develop a class where I teach students these strategies. And

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize how much that would go viral, not

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Speaker 1: just on campus, but lots of folks need these strategies.

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Speaker 3: I remember it was national news. You were all over

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Speaker 3: the place, the most popular, over subscribed class at Yale.

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Speaker 1: And I think you know, it was a couple thing.

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Speaker 1: One is like whenever Yale does anything, it makes the

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Speaker 1: New York Times and national news and stuff. But I

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Speaker 1: think it was striking for people to see that these students,

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Speaker 1: who are nineteen one of the best universities in the world,

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Speaker 1: the whole lives out of them, were suffering in the

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Speaker 1: way that they were suffering like not just at Yale,

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Speaker 1: but right now nationally, more than sixty percent of students

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Speaker 1: report being so anxious that they can't function most days.

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Speaker 1: More than forty percent say they're depressed. More than one

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Speaker 1: in ten is seriously considered suicide in the last few months,

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Speaker 1: and that was what I was kind of seeing. So

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Speaker 1: I think it was a striking story for people to see,

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Speaker 1: like wow, like young people are struggling way more than

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Speaker 1: we thought.

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Speaker 3: And by being head of college and cohabitating with all

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Speaker 3: of them, you're the door that is, you know, getting

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Speaker 3: knocked on, right, So you're on the receiving end of

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Speaker 3: a lot of these stories and tales.

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Speaker 1: Of woll No I would. I spent numerous weekends visiting

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Speaker 1: students in psychiatric hospitals. I had lots of knocks on

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Speaker 1: the door late at night where I like wear my glasses,

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Speaker 1: like walked down stairs to see what's going on.

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Speaker 3: But you don't understand.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, it was less the emergencies and more just the

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Speaker 1: like low grade, painful hustle in ways that just like

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Speaker 1: weren't making students happy. They kind of like deep anxiety

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Speaker 1: about the future, just like mortgaging the fun and the

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Speaker 1: sleep and the social connection they could have in college.

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Speaker 1: It just felt like a really unhealthy situation. And again,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just Yale. The more I dug into I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is just college student lives generally.

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Speaker 3: That was my question because it takes a lot to

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Speaker 3: get into Yale, So by the time they arrive there,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're well into their striver trajectory, right, Like

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Speaker 3: they've been grinding for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, you know, there's there's aspects of

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Speaker 1: being at Ivy League school that might be worse because

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Speaker 1: they're kind of been in that grinding mode for so long.

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Speaker 1: But I just think this is a generational thing, and

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Speaker 1: the data really bear it out. Right, You're starting to

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Speaker 1: see seeds of this stuff in high school, even in

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Speaker 1: middle school, with rates of depression anxiety skyrocketing. And I

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Speaker 1: just think we have so many people who are off track.

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Speaker 3: Prior to creating the course what we're you teaching, Like,

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Speaker 3: I take it that you weren't, like happiness wasn't an

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Speaker 3: area of expertise or specificity for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was really interested in kind of how humans

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Speaker 1: got to be the weird species that we are, both

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Speaker 1: the strange smart things that humans do, but also the

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Speaker 1: strange dumb things that humans do. I know you and

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Speaker 1: I both are fans of Bob Sapolski at Stanford, this

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Speaker 1: primary researcher, and I'm a fan in part because I

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Speaker 1: was a primary researcher. I studied these groups, this group

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Speaker 1: of monkeys off the coast of Puerto Rico, and tried

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Speaker 1: to see how they made sense of the world.

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Speaker 3: So now it's your gambit to like create this course

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Speaker 3: and you got to figure it out, right, So how

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Speaker 3: do you piece that together and start to make sense

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Speaker 3: of this very elusive topic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, one of the things I did was, you know,

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Speaker 1: stand on the shoulder of giants. Right. There were lots

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Speaker 1: of other faculty who maybe hadn't seen the same crisis

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Speaker 1: in the same way I did, but were really interested

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Speaker 1: in the science of happiness and had pulled together classes.

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Speaker 1: Is you know, I get a lot of mileage because

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Speaker 1: I did this at Yale, but folks like tall Benee

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Speaker 1: Hair had offered a similar course at Harvard. There recourses

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Speaker 1: all around the country that we're looking at this, So

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Speaker 1: I kind of pulled different folks syllabus and kind of

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Speaker 1: looked at the stuff I liked. I think the unique

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Speaker 1: thing that I added in though, was that I was

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Speaker 1: also really worried about not just what we should do

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Speaker 1: to be happy, but how we put that stuff into practice,

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Speaker 1: because I know, you know from the show that like

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Speaker 1: there's all theyse strategies and tips we can do to

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Speaker 1: be more fit, to be healthier, to be happier, to

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Speaker 1: strive more, whatever it is. But you can know all

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Speaker 1: those things and not do any of that stuff. You

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Speaker 1: can know all that stuff and lay on the couch

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Speaker 1: every morning.

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Speaker 3: There's a big gap between self awareness and action. Yes,

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Speaker 3: when it comes to this stuff. I take it from

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Speaker 3: me as somebody who sat across from many a happiness expert.

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Speaker 1: It's like they walked out of the room and you're like, yeah, do.

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Speaker 3: I actually then go do these things? This is a

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Speaker 3: lingering question.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The nerds and social science like to call this

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Speaker 1: bias the g I Joe fallacy. You're my age, so

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Speaker 1: you probably remember Gi Joe. The cartoon. Gi Joe to

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Speaker 1: end the cartoon with this public service announcement where g

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Speaker 1: I Joe would teach kids things like don't talk to

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Speaker 1: strangers or look both ways when you cross the street,

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Speaker 1: then quaint to problems of the eighties that you need

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Speaker 1: to teach kids about. But then at the end the

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Speaker 1: kid would say, thank you, Gi Joe. Now I know,

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Speaker 1: and Gi Jo would say, and knowing is half the battle.

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Speaker 1: Go Gi Joe. There's tons of things I know that

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Speaker 1: I don't put into effect, and that you won't put

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Speaker 1: into effect unless you have social support in the right

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Speaker 1: habits and like a real commitment to these things. And

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Speaker 1: so I think that's where my course is different. Everyone

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Speaker 1: talks about it being a course about happiness, but the

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Speaker 1: whole second half of the course is about Okay, now

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Speaker 1: you know this stuff, but how do you put it

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Speaker 1: into practice? How do you form the right habits?

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Speaker 3: Right? The difference between knowing something and then acting on

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Speaker 3: it is just like you said, like what got you

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Speaker 3: interested in psychology? Like why do our brains lead us astray?

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Speaker 3: It's like we know better, and yet we do these

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Speaker 3: things and we get into these loops and these patterns

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Speaker 3: that we can't escape from. I mean that is central

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Speaker 3: to happiness, but central to all facets of like trying

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Speaker 3: to better ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this was the thing that the folks who were

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Speaker 1: first interested in psychology, who weren't psychologists, right, the philosophers,

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Speaker 1: the ancients, all the folks who thought about the human condition.

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Speaker 1: This was the thing they were really worried about, right,

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Speaker 1: self regulation? How do you get folks to do what

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Speaker 1: they really want to do? Yeah, So this gap has

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Speaker 1: been following us around for a long time.

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Speaker 3: Is there science on because there are people, Oh I

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Speaker 3: read that and now I'm doing it. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: not a leap, but for most people it is a leap. Like,

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Speaker 3: is there some understanding around what differentiates those two archetypes?

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Speaker 3: Like the person who can just kind of pivot right

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Speaker 3: into action.

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Speaker 1: Honestly not great work. I mean there are people who

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Speaker 1: talk about it lot. I know Gretchen Rubin for example,

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Speaker 1: and others. Journalist, happiness expert, she talks about what she

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Speaker 1: calls the lightning phenomena, which is like a lot of

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Speaker 1: times behavior change is really hard. But then sometimes there's

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Speaker 1: just this moment where you see some statistic, or you

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Speaker 1: hear something bad, or you have a health diagnosed, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, boom.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 1: I'm changing my behavior and then like a lightning bolt,

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Speaker 1: everything has changed. Sadly, most behavioral change doesn't work that way.

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Speaker 1: And I think we as social scientists, we really haven't

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Speaker 1: figured out how to engineer the lightning bolt. If we did,

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Speaker 1: you know, podcasts like this might be well.

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Speaker 3: Pain is a pretty good reliable motivator. Yeah, if you're

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Speaker 3: in enough pain, maybe for a while, then you develop

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Speaker 3: you develop a capacity for willingness that you know you

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Speaker 3: can't conjure willingness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So how you get folks to be motivated? How

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Speaker 1: you turn something into a habit? I mean, honestly, the

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Speaker 1: best strategies we have now were the same ones that

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Speaker 1: folks like Aristotle back in the day came up with. Right,

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Speaker 1: you do it repeatedly, so you become a person who

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Speaker 1: does these kinds of things. You kind of fake it

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Speaker 1: till you make it. You get social support. Right, The

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Speaker 1: best strategies we have in social science for getting people

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Speaker 1: to do stuff are the ones that the philosophers thought

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Speaker 1: of thousands of years ago.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Are there not different types of happiness? I mean there's

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Speaker 3: hedonic happiness, there's you tomonic happyesiness. Is hedonic happiness actually happiness?

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Speaker 3: Or is that something different?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: How do you think about that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many different definitions of happiness. I try

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Speaker 1: to squish them into this definition that social scientists use

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Speaker 1: so often. The way I think about more hedonic happiness.

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Speaker 1: That's the kind of in your life happiness, Right, that's

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Speaker 1: like things are going well, I'm experiencing joy, I'm savoring stuff, right.

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Speaker 1: I think it's not the pure way that hedon has

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Speaker 1: thought about it, because if you just had like you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, deep pleasure, pleasure, pleasure all the time, it

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Speaker 1: would stop being good right.

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Speaker 3: Now, Well, you wouldn't be happy in your life ultimately, correct, Yes,

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Speaker 3: so you need to with your life. I can't what

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Speaker 3: is the distinction?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think you know, if I was just going

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Speaker 1: for pure hedonic pleasure, you know, like how fuch Sundays

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Speaker 1: and sex and you know, days on the beach or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and that was it, eventually I would get bored with that, right.

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Speaker 1: This is a phenomenon of getting used to stuff, what's

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Speaker 1: called hedonic adaptation. Even the best things in life over

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Speaker 1: and over stop being so good. So it wouldn't really

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Speaker 1: make me happy in my life, and it probably wouldn't

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Speaker 1: make me happy with my life. You know, you and I,

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Speaker 1: because we do what we do, tend to run in

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Speaker 1: these circles where we meet lots of rich folks, lots

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Speaker 1: of folks who have the privilege and the money to

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Speaker 1: have every heat on at pleasure. By and large, my

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Speaker 1: experience with those folks as they are not happy, like.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is the world capital of that, I mean,

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Speaker 3: we live, you know, this is Los Angeles, you know

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Speaker 3: plenty of those people cruising around here, so I'm very

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Speaker 3: familiar with that. But I think part of what leads

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Speaker 3: them to that place is a fundamental misunderstanding of happiness.

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Speaker 3: It goes back to the self awareness thing. Like we know,

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Speaker 3: and we've read in so many books and heard so

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Speaker 3: many people say that the things that drive happiness are

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Speaker 3: human connection and having a purpose and you know, having

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Speaker 3: some sense of meaning in how you show up in

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Speaker 3: your life, and you know, all these things that you

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Speaker 3: talk about that we're going to get to. And yet

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Speaker 3: we still delude ourselves into thinking that the happiness that

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Speaker 3: eludes us is just around the bank end of the promotion,

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Speaker 3: or the new car, or when you get the new house,

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Speaker 3: or just name whatever your poison is. And for some

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Speaker 3: reason we believe that we are the sole exception to

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Speaker 3: the rule. And no matter. It's like in AA they say,

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Speaker 3: the persistence of this delusion is astonishing, Like it doesn't.

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Speaker 3: It's like it's so resilient, this idea that the things

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Speaker 3: that we chase in modern society will purchase happiness for us,

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Speaker 3: even though time and time and time again they don't

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Speaker 3: and we don't learn our lesson. Yeah, like what is

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Speaker 3: going on with that.

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Speaker 1: Human minds are stupid, man, I mean, human minds are stupid.

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Speaker 1: My mind is stupid, right. I know all this research

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Speaker 1: rag and quote you the specific paper and the journal

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Speaker 1: that these findings are in. But for me, it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the cool new opportunity, maybe I'll make some money.

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Speaker 1: It's like ah, how sexy, or like, let me just

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Speaker 1: get some emails done rather than like chat with my

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Speaker 1: husband over dinner. Like, we just have these biases to

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Speaker 1: go after stuff that we I strongly believe, at least intuitively,

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Speaker 1: like our deep intuitions are that this will make us

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Speaker 1: feel good, this will make us happy, this will make

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Speaker 1: life better, and it just doesn't. The specific things that

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Speaker 1: we go after what a lot of folks call the

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Speaker 1: arrival fallacy. One of the big ones that we mess

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Speaker 1: up is if I could just get to this thing,

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Speaker 1: if I could just get to the promotion, just earn

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Speaker 1: a million dollars, just find the right partner. When I

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Speaker 1: arrive there, I'll be happy. But this is the arrival fallacies,

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Speaker 1: like the happily ever after fallacy, And that's one thing

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Speaker 1: we get wrong right, which is there's never a moment

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Speaker 1: where you're like okay, one and none, like I can

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Speaker 1: be happy now and just exist in happiness. My colleague

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Speaker 1: Dan Gilbert at Harvard is fond of saying that happily

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Speaker 1: ever after it only works if you have three more

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Speaker 1: minutes to live. It's just not how happiness works, but

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Speaker 1: we often think it is, and we often really think

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Speaker 1: that the stuff like money, fame, all these things, we

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Speaker 1: think that that's going to get us there, and we

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Speaker 1: go after those things at the expense of all the

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Speaker 1: stuff you just listed, social connection, time, for rest, hard

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Speaker 1: problems that give us meaning but that we might you know,

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Speaker 1: not get to in the end. Right, these are things

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Speaker 1: that are really ultimately going to make life worth living,

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Speaker 1: but we kind of forego those great things in the

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Speaker 1: service of stuff that's not going to make us feel good.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious or I wonder whether what we think of

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Speaker 3: is happiness when we chase these things, is, in point

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Speaker 3: of fact, the alleviation of fear or doubt. Like it's

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Speaker 3: not that we're imagining some blissful, permanent state of well

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Speaker 3: being if we achieve these things or get to these

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Speaker 3: certain places, but that we won't have to worry about

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Speaker 3: stuff that we worry about now that we will eradicate

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Speaker 3: some level of uncertainty, and we no longer need to

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Speaker 3: be afraid, and we won't have to work as hard.

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Speaker 3: I bang on about this all the time, so I

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Speaker 3: apologize to the audience. But I had this psychiatrist Phil Stutz.

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Speaker 3: You know Phil Stuts is on the show. He's a

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Speaker 3: wonderful man, and he has this working idea, this working theory,

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Speaker 3: because he treats all these people in Hollywood who are

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Speaker 3: like rich and powerful and just you know, miserable, right,

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Speaker 3: And he said, this sort of shared strain between all

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Speaker 3: of these people is that they are in denial of

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Speaker 3: three fundamental truths of life, which are pain, uncertainty, and

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Speaker 3: the need for constant work. And in the context of happiness,

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Speaker 3: on some level, it seems resonant like we're chasing these

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Speaker 3: things because we don't like these ideas of pain, uncertainty

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Speaker 3: and having to continually work on things. And if we

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Speaker 3: just get to this place, then we can take a breath. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And we associate that with happiness, and I guess there's

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Speaker 3: some veneer of happiness with that, but it's a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a different thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think we're really bad at making effective

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Speaker 1: accurate predictions about like how much pain we're going to

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Speaker 1: have in different situations. Right, take money. I think this

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Speaker 1: is one that people get wrong all the time. Right,

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Speaker 1: just walk in when the power ball gets high and

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Speaker 1: people are like, oh my gosh, when I win this

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Speaker 1: eight hundred million dollars, everything's going to be great. And

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Speaker 1: I think if you duck to some one of the

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Speaker 1: hundred million dollars to be like, oh maah, no, you

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Speaker 1: got to worry about the taxes and everyone comes out

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Speaker 1: of it would work to get money from you. And

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Speaker 1: where are you going to park your yacht? It's a

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Speaker 1: huge pain in the butt to figure out where you're

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Speaker 1: going to put your yacht, et cetera, et cetera. It's

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Speaker 1: like when we simulate these positive futures, we just get

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Speaker 1: it wrong, right, We kind of miss out on the

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Speaker 1: stuff that's really going to matter. That's true for the

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Speaker 1: good things in life. Interestingly, it's also true for the

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Speaker 1: bad things in life. Right. One of the most famous

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Speaker 1: studies on this that folks did, like back, you know,

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Speaker 1: decades ago now, had people predict, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: if we were to walk out of the studio and

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Speaker 1: you and I both get hit by a car and

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Speaker 1: we were both paraplegic. How would that affect our lives?

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Speaker 1: We said, Oh my gosh, we would just be so unhappy.

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Speaker 1: Our lives would be ruined. But you look at people

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Speaker 1: who've actually gone through a terrible accident like that, who've

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Speaker 1: become paraplegic, and what you find is that within six

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Speaker 1: months their happiness levels are statistically indistinguishable from what they

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Speaker 1: were before, statistically indistinguishable from folks who you know, walked

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Speaker 1: out of the studio and didn't get hit. That's absolutely

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Speaker 1: not what we predict. But what happens, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: life goes on, there's still reruns on TV, and like

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Speaker 1: you chat with your friends and something funny happens on

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Speaker 1: the internet, and like that's what's changing your day to day.

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Speaker 1: But we absolutely don't think that a terrible thing could

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Speaker 1: happen to us and we'd be fine. So these are

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Speaker 1: our prediction problems. We simulate the wonderful thing, the awesome

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Speaker 1: thing that we're going for, we don't simulate all the

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Speaker 1: problems that go with it. And when we simulate the

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Speaker 1: terrible things, we don't simulate all the day to day

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Speaker 1: stuff that's going to affect our happiness. Much more than

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Speaker 1: we expect with this terrible thing happening. So we're just

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Speaker 1: we're just kind of bad forecasters, and that's a lot

433
00:20:38,836 --> 00:20:39,676
Speaker 1: of what we get wrong.

434
00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:44,596
Speaker 3: One of your so called rewirables around this, which are

435
00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:49,956
Speaker 3: basically actionable tools, right, is very encounterintuitive. We're all taught

436
00:20:49,996 --> 00:20:52,836
Speaker 3: to like visualize success and you know, imagine what will

437
00:20:52,876 --> 00:20:55,636
Speaker 3: happen and you know, believe in yourself and all of that,

438
00:20:55,836 --> 00:20:59,716
Speaker 3: and your counsel is basically like visualize the opposite, like

439
00:20:59,836 --> 00:21:03,036
Speaker 3: imagine the obstacles like forget, which is a very process

440
00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:06,716
Speaker 3: versus destination mindset, and I think it's really cool. I'd

441
00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:10,396
Speaker 3: never heard anyone talk about this before, the idea that

442
00:21:10,716 --> 00:21:13,316
Speaker 3: what you should be visualizing are all the problems you're

443
00:21:13,316 --> 00:21:15,756
Speaker 3: going to face on the road to getting the thing.

444
00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:20,996
Speaker 3: And when you visualize on the destination, that's when you

445
00:21:21,036 --> 00:21:23,756
Speaker 3: succumb to the arrival fallacy, right, because when you get there,

446
00:21:23,796 --> 00:21:25,716
Speaker 3: it's like, all right, well, I already imagine this, and

447
00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:28,116
Speaker 3: maybe it's not as good as I imagined, or it

448
00:21:28,116 --> 00:21:29,276
Speaker 3: wears off very quickly.

449
00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:31,916
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's also lots of evidence that when we imagine

450
00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:34,596
Speaker 1: these positive futures, like oh my gosh, you know, I'm gonna

451
00:21:34,636 --> 00:21:36,236
Speaker 1: run ultra marathon. Oh, it's gonna be so great and

452
00:21:36,276 --> 00:21:37,916
Speaker 1: be so cool. Everyone's going to think I'm great whatever.

453
00:21:38,516 --> 00:21:42,196
Speaker 1: The more you imagine the positive future, your imagination kind

454
00:21:42,236 --> 00:21:45,236
Speaker 1: of works like real brain cognition, like real brain thinking.

455
00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:47,196
Speaker 1: You get some of the reward from that. When I'm thinking,

456
00:21:47,236 --> 00:21:49,276
Speaker 1: oh my god, everyone will think I'm so cool, I

457
00:21:49,356 --> 00:21:51,156
Speaker 1: kind of get a little bit of everyone thinking I'm

458
00:21:51,196 --> 00:21:54,276
Speaker 1: cool already, and it actually makes people less likely to

459
00:21:54,516 --> 00:21:56,716
Speaker 1: take action towards those goals. This is the lovely work

460
00:21:56,756 --> 00:21:59,396
Speaker 1: of this woman, Gabrielle Ottingen, who's at NYU. She does

461
00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:02,836
Speaker 1: these studies where she has students positively fantasize about getting

462
00:22:02,876 --> 00:22:04,876
Speaker 1: good grades, and she finds that the ones who have

463
00:22:04,916 --> 00:22:06,876
Speaker 1: the most vivid fantasies are the ones that put the

464
00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:09,196
Speaker 1: least work into studying because kind of like that already.

465
00:22:08,916 --> 00:22:10,956
Speaker 3: Has right, I've already had the experience.

466
00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:15,676
Speaker 1: It's exceeding. Meanwhile, you're you're not putting the work into

467
00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:18,836
Speaker 1: things you really need your cognitive help with, which is like, Okay,

468
00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:20,596
Speaker 1: how I'm going to actually get to the library, or

469
00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:22,156
Speaker 1: how am I going to go to office hours, or

470
00:22:22,156 --> 00:22:23,716
Speaker 1: how I'm going to do the million things you need

471
00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:25,996
Speaker 1: to do to achieve that goal. And so when you

472
00:22:26,116 --> 00:22:29,396
Speaker 1: envision the obstacles, now, all of a sudden, you're putting

473
00:22:29,396 --> 00:22:32,636
Speaker 1: your cognitive brain power towards practicing and thinking through the

474
00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:34,356
Speaker 1: things that are really going to mess you up when

475
00:22:34,396 --> 00:22:35,436
Speaker 1: you try to go for that goal.

476
00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:39,116
Speaker 3: But you do need some self belief that you could

477
00:22:39,156 --> 00:22:41,476
Speaker 3: achieve the goal, right, So you have to balance that

478
00:22:41,636 --> 00:22:45,876
Speaker 3: against on some level, you know there is value in

479
00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:48,276
Speaker 3: seeing yourself cross the finish line or getting the rapport

480
00:22:48,356 --> 00:22:51,036
Speaker 3: card or whatever to anchor you in the journey. Yeah,

481
00:22:51,076 --> 00:22:53,356
Speaker 3: it's more than you ruminate on it, right.

482
00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:55,556
Speaker 1: It's so nuanced. In fact, this was the thing that

483
00:22:55,596 --> 00:22:58,036
Speaker 1: I just finished teaching my happiness class this semester. You're

484
00:22:58,036 --> 00:23:00,076
Speaker 1: talking to me. I submitted grades right before I flew

485
00:23:00,076 --> 00:23:02,316
Speaker 1: here to Las. I'm feeling really good. But the one

486
00:23:02,356 --> 00:23:04,876
Speaker 1: thing my students kind of thought about and complained the

487
00:23:04,876 --> 00:23:07,476
Speaker 1: most about was this because right now, in the popular culture,

488
00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:10,156
Speaker 1: this idea of positive diss is big.

489
00:23:10,276 --> 00:23:10,396
Speaker 3: Right.

490
00:23:10,476 --> 00:23:13,356
Speaker 1: My students love manifesting. They hear about it on TikTok

491
00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:15,556
Speaker 1: a lot, and so they're like, you're telling me manifesting's bad.

492
00:23:15,596 --> 00:23:17,916
Speaker 1: I thought, thinking about your positive future, thinking you were

493
00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:19,876
Speaker 1: the kind of person that could do this is great.

494
00:23:20,596 --> 00:23:23,316
Speaker 1: And the subtle distinction is you want to think that

495
00:23:23,356 --> 00:23:25,596
Speaker 1: you're the kind of person who can do it, but

496
00:23:25,876 --> 00:23:28,276
Speaker 1: you're not that person yet, Like you haven't done it

497
00:23:28,316 --> 00:23:30,236
Speaker 1: already yet. Right, So you want to be like, I'm

498
00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:32,516
Speaker 1: the kind of person who can put in the work

499
00:23:32,556 --> 00:23:34,476
Speaker 1: needed to become a good student. I'm the kind of

500
00:23:34,516 --> 00:23:37,076
Speaker 1: person who can put in the work needed to become

501
00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:39,676
Speaker 1: ultra marathon or get fit or whatever it is. Right,

502
00:23:39,956 --> 00:23:41,596
Speaker 1: you want to think you're the kind of person who

503
00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:43,916
Speaker 1: can do it, but you also want to know the

504
00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:45,956
Speaker 1: things that you actually have to do to do it,

505
00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:48,476
Speaker 1: Cause most big goals have some like work that you

506
00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:50,676
Speaker 1: need to put in, and when you get the reward

507
00:23:50,716 --> 00:23:52,636
Speaker 1: without the work, that's when you get into trouble.

508
00:23:53,436 --> 00:23:59,276
Speaker 3: Yeah, So by focusing on the obstacles with some anchor

509
00:23:59,316 --> 00:24:02,036
Speaker 3: of self belief that you are going to be able

510
00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:05,636
Speaker 3: to solve the problems and like navigate through the mindfield

511
00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:10,716
Speaker 3: is very valuable. But it's distinct from maybe what some

512
00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:14,196
Speaker 3: people misunderstand it to be, which would be like an

513
00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:18,556
Speaker 3: attitude of dread around this or a victim and everything's terrible.

514
00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:21,596
Speaker 3: There's all these problems, it's going to take forever. I'm

515
00:24:21,596 --> 00:24:24,556
Speaker 3: never gonna make it, and why even try? Like those

516
00:24:24,556 --> 00:24:25,556
Speaker 3: are two different things.

517
00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:28,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the best thing in Gabrielle Outingen's work is

518
00:24:28,236 --> 00:24:31,116
Speaker 1: not just imagine the obstacles, but imagine the if then

519
00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:34,156
Speaker 1: plan you would take to get through the obstacles. I

520
00:24:34,196 --> 00:24:36,476
Speaker 1: talk about this on my podcast, the sort of idea

521
00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:38,676
Speaker 1: of kind of getting through the obstacles. And I interviewed

522
00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:43,556
Speaker 1: Michael Phelps, the swimmer's coach, because Michael Phelps, Yeah, great,

523
00:24:43,596 --> 00:24:46,396
Speaker 1: great guy and can talk so articularly about what Michael

524
00:24:46,476 --> 00:24:48,436
Speaker 1: was doing. And one of the things he did a

525
00:24:48,436 --> 00:24:51,196
Speaker 1: lot was he used a lot of visualization, right, visualize

526
00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:53,636
Speaker 1: the perfect swim. But Michael was so good at this

527
00:24:53,676 --> 00:24:56,396
Speaker 1: he got bored with it, and so he started visualizing

528
00:24:56,476 --> 00:24:58,916
Speaker 1: what would happen if terrible things went wrong. His goggles

529
00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:00,956
Speaker 1: came off, he slapped his foot against the thing, you know,

530
00:25:01,076 --> 00:25:04,396
Speaker 1: just stupid stuff went wrong, right, And what he did

531
00:25:04,436 --> 00:25:06,196
Speaker 1: in doing that was that he kind of just played

532
00:25:06,196 --> 00:25:08,476
Speaker 1: out the scenario, right. He said, like, oh, my goggles

533
00:25:08,516 --> 00:25:10,116
Speaker 1: fall off, then I know I can just count my

534
00:25:10,116 --> 00:25:12,556
Speaker 1: strokes and that'll be fine. Turns out this wound up

535
00:25:12,556 --> 00:25:15,036
Speaker 1: being incredibly helpful. I think it was the Beijing Olympics

536
00:25:15,036 --> 00:25:17,676
Speaker 1: when his goggles actually came off. He kind of had

537
00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:20,796
Speaker 1: practiced what to do, and therefore he was fine and

538
00:25:20,836 --> 00:25:23,036
Speaker 1: he ended up winning a gold even though you know,

539
00:25:23,076 --> 00:25:24,756
Speaker 1: the horrible event that he was saying, Wow, this would

540
00:25:24,756 --> 00:25:27,156
Speaker 1: be so terrible actually happened, And I think this is

541
00:25:27,156 --> 00:25:29,276
Speaker 1: what we want to do. You want to ask the question, Okay,

542
00:25:29,356 --> 00:25:32,196
Speaker 1: like I'm trying to study more. What's a horrible thing. Well,

543
00:25:32,196 --> 00:25:34,636
Speaker 1: there's a party this weekend. Well how would I navigate that? Well,

544
00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:36,276
Speaker 1: I'd you know, set time to go to the party,

545
00:25:36,276 --> 00:25:38,676
Speaker 1: and I'd set my alarm clocker really and get up right.

546
00:25:38,676 --> 00:25:40,836
Speaker 1: You know, I want to go running a little bit

547
00:25:40,836 --> 00:25:42,996
Speaker 1: more this weekend. I want to pick up my more

548
00:25:43,036 --> 00:25:45,356
Speaker 1: miles or whatever. Like, well, what should I do? Well,

549
00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:46,996
Speaker 1: I have to I might have to cancel this thing

550
00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:48,676
Speaker 1: and schedule a little bit more time. Oh it's going

551
00:25:48,716 --> 00:25:50,676
Speaker 1: to be raining. I got to get myself to the

552
00:25:50,676 --> 00:25:52,756
Speaker 1: gym because I want to do on the treadmill. But

553
00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:55,476
Speaker 1: you're just going through the scenarios and coming up with

554
00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:58,476
Speaker 1: a plan, so it's not this victim mindset and all like, oh,

555
00:25:58,476 --> 00:26:00,396
Speaker 1: it's just going to be so hard you're like, Oh,

556
00:26:00,396 --> 00:26:02,916
Speaker 1: there's an obstacle, but I can overcome the obstacle, and

557
00:26:02,956 --> 00:26:04,636
Speaker 1: I've already thought through how to do it. I've kind

558
00:26:04,676 --> 00:26:06,316
Speaker 1: of given myself some practice.

559
00:26:06,516 --> 00:26:09,556
Speaker 3: The distinctive quality in that is resilience. Is it not

560
00:26:09,756 --> 00:26:12,996
Speaker 3: like the ability to adapt when things aren't going your

561
00:26:13,036 --> 00:26:17,356
Speaker 3: way without getting completely derailed by it. Right? So in

562
00:26:17,396 --> 00:26:22,076
Speaker 3: the athletic context, when you've visualized the perfect race and

563
00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:25,836
Speaker 3: something slightly is amiss or doesn't go as you imagined it,

564
00:26:25,916 --> 00:26:29,516
Speaker 3: you collapse and fall apart, versus being able to roll

565
00:26:29,556 --> 00:26:31,476
Speaker 3: with whatever life throws at you.

566
00:26:31,676 --> 00:26:33,916
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's also the practice that we can do

567
00:26:34,076 --> 00:26:36,836
Speaker 1: inside our heads. I mean, this isn't a wonderful feature

568
00:26:36,836 --> 00:26:39,236
Speaker 1: of the human mind, right is it? We can just

569
00:26:39,356 --> 00:26:41,516
Speaker 1: experience things happening to us in our head.

570
00:26:41,756 --> 00:26:41,916
Speaker 3: Right.

571
00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:43,956
Speaker 1: I don't have to go through the morning where my

572
00:26:43,996 --> 00:26:45,796
Speaker 1: alarm clock goes off and I don't want to run,

573
00:26:45,836 --> 00:26:47,996
Speaker 1: because like, oh, I can practice that in my head

574
00:26:47,996 --> 00:26:49,556
Speaker 1: and I can walk through like, oh, here's what I

575
00:26:49,596 --> 00:26:52,396
Speaker 1: will do to do that better. There's just some amazing

576
00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:54,956
Speaker 1: cognitive science work on the power of mental practice. One

577
00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:57,516
Speaker 1: of my favorite studies that I tell my students about

578
00:26:57,596 --> 00:26:59,756
Speaker 1: nerdly is. I think this is the work by Carrie

579
00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:02,476
Speaker 1: Morwage at Boston University. He does this study where he

580
00:27:02,796 --> 00:27:05,756
Speaker 1: either has people imagine eating M and ms one by

581
00:27:05,836 --> 00:27:09,676
Speaker 1: one slowly or slowly put in quarters like into a

582
00:27:09,756 --> 00:27:12,076
Speaker 1: vending machine, over and over again, and then at the

583
00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:13,956
Speaker 1: end of imagining this, you just give people a big

584
00:27:13,996 --> 00:27:16,556
Speaker 1: bowl of eminem's. What do you find The people who

585
00:27:16,636 --> 00:27:18,596
Speaker 1: imagine eating the eminems, They're like, oh God, I don't

586
00:27:18,596 --> 00:27:21,276
Speaker 1: want any more m and ms. I'm going I don't

587
00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:23,636
Speaker 1: need it anymore. Whereas the people who imagine the quarters,

588
00:27:23,636 --> 00:27:25,716
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, eminems will have some right. When we

589
00:27:25,796 --> 00:27:29,316
Speaker 1: practice something in our heads, there's something in our brain

590
00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:32,116
Speaker 1: that's a little bit confused about whether that's happened already,

591
00:27:32,516 --> 00:27:34,716
Speaker 1: and we get to mental practice in the fitness domain

592
00:27:34,796 --> 00:27:36,676
Speaker 1: or in the health domain, or in the like happiness

593
00:27:36,716 --> 00:27:39,196
Speaker 1: strategy domain. What it means is when you practice it

594
00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:41,876
Speaker 1: in your head, you're building that abbot up even though

595
00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:44,276
Speaker 1: you haven't had to do that in real life yet.

596
00:27:44,676 --> 00:27:46,996
Speaker 1: And that can be great. That means your time, you know,

597
00:27:47,076 --> 00:27:50,076
Speaker 1: stuck in traffic on your commute to work, the rumination

598
00:27:50,196 --> 00:27:51,876
Speaker 1: that you have in bed and they oh am I

599
00:27:51,876 --> 00:27:53,716
Speaker 1: going to be able to get through this. You can

600
00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:56,316
Speaker 1: harness that for good. You can like practice the thing

601
00:27:56,396 --> 00:27:58,676
Speaker 1: that you're worried is going to be hard, and you'll

602
00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:00,636
Speaker 1: get the benefit of that practice, you know when you

603
00:28:00,716 --> 00:28:02,276
Speaker 1: wake up or in real life later on.

604
00:28:02,676 --> 00:28:05,596
Speaker 3: That's the positive side of the coin, you know, if

605
00:28:05,636 --> 00:28:08,556
Speaker 3: you flip it over the other version, the negative version

606
00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:12,196
Speaker 3: of that is is the person who talks all the

607
00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:15,236
Speaker 3: time about the thing they're going to do and then

608
00:28:15,276 --> 00:28:19,436
Speaker 3: never ends up doing it because their brain has already

609
00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:23,276
Speaker 3: been satisfied by whatever it's seeking. Right, So what's going

610
00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:29,036
Speaker 3: on in the brain like dopaminergically or neurologically that like,

611
00:28:29,316 --> 00:28:31,636
Speaker 3: what is the signaling that's occurring?

612
00:28:31,836 --> 00:28:34,356
Speaker 1: I think the key is like if you just sit

613
00:28:34,396 --> 00:28:37,236
Speaker 1: there with their reward and that's it, and you stop there, right,

614
00:28:37,276 --> 00:28:38,716
Speaker 1: you kind of oh, I would be so great if

615
00:28:38,756 --> 00:28:40,636
Speaker 1: I did this. I'd be so proud of myself. You know,

616
00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:43,156
Speaker 1: you kind of dust it off and you're done. That

617
00:28:43,196 --> 00:28:46,036
Speaker 1: means you get the reward without doing the practice, without

618
00:28:46,116 --> 00:28:48,996
Speaker 1: kind of getting the information when you start to simulate

619
00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:50,476
Speaker 1: and ask, okay, well what would I need to do

620
00:28:50,516 --> 00:28:51,956
Speaker 1: to do that? What are the obstacles that are going

621
00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:53,996
Speaker 1: to come up? Oh? I like to sleep in, or

622
00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:56,676
Speaker 1: it's going to be cold out or whatever. You know, strategy,

623
00:28:56,716 --> 00:28:59,516
Speaker 1: You need to think of whatever obstacle that's there. Now,

624
00:28:59,556 --> 00:29:01,436
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, your brain goes into planning mode

625
00:29:01,636 --> 00:29:03,676
Speaker 1: rather than just sitting with your rewarder is firing and

626
00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:05,756
Speaker 1: be like, oh my gosh, that'd be so awesome. Now

627
00:29:05,756 --> 00:29:08,316
Speaker 1: you're kicking into the planning parts of your brain, your

628
00:29:08,316 --> 00:29:10,996
Speaker 1: frontal lobes kick in. Is trying to think through different

629
00:29:11,036 --> 00:29:14,276
Speaker 1: scenarios and come up with these answers for you. And

630
00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:16,316
Speaker 1: that means you get the answer before you have to

631
00:29:16,356 --> 00:29:18,396
Speaker 1: be in the situation that's doing it. And so I

632
00:29:18,436 --> 00:29:21,116
Speaker 1: think you switched from just kind of like sitting there

633
00:29:21,156 --> 00:29:23,876
Speaker 1: and enjoying what you already accomplished, which you didn't accomplish

634
00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:27,196
Speaker 1: yet too, turning on those planning parts of your mind

635
00:29:27,196 --> 00:29:29,196
Speaker 1: and your brain that can actually help you get through

636
00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:34,396
Speaker 1: in a much more successful way. Later on, you're listening

637
00:29:34,436 --> 00:29:37,236
Speaker 1: to my conversation on the Rich Role podcast. We'll have

638
00:29:37,316 --> 00:29:38,796
Speaker 1: even more after the break.

639
00:29:45,796 --> 00:29:50,476
Speaker 3: While we're on the topic of misconceptions around happiness. Another

640
00:29:50,516 --> 00:29:54,036
Speaker 3: one that occurs to me is the way in which

641
00:29:54,836 --> 00:30:00,556
Speaker 3: we're wired to believe that comfort and convenience and expediency

642
00:30:00,756 --> 00:30:06,716
Speaker 3: and all of these things luxury are essential in this

643
00:30:07,316 --> 00:30:12,436
Speaker 3: equation happiness when we know that actually it's discomfort and

644
00:30:12,516 --> 00:30:15,436
Speaker 3: getting out of your comfort zone and pushing yourself and

645
00:30:15,876 --> 00:30:17,836
Speaker 3: you know, getting up, you know, when you set the

646
00:30:17,876 --> 00:30:21,876
Speaker 3: alarm or whatever habit or practice it is that as

647
00:30:21,956 --> 00:30:26,076
Speaker 3: uncomfortable and as miserable as they feel when we're doing them,

648
00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:29,636
Speaker 3: leads to that resilience and ultimately a sense of greater

649
00:30:29,716 --> 00:30:32,796
Speaker 3: self esteem like these are like you know, seedlings that

650
00:30:33,516 --> 00:30:38,156
Speaker 3: blossom into a more lasting and low grade maybe, but

651
00:30:38,676 --> 00:30:42,796
Speaker 3: sense of well being. That has to be part of happiness, yes, yeah,

652
00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:43,356
Speaker 3: for sure.

653
00:30:43,676 --> 00:30:46,356
Speaker 1: And I think we get it wrong in two ways.

654
00:30:46,436 --> 00:30:46,596
Speaker 3: Right.

655
00:30:46,956 --> 00:30:49,196
Speaker 1: One is we assume that, you know, if we get

656
00:30:49,196 --> 00:30:51,876
Speaker 1: to the comforts, that those comforts are going to last, right,

657
00:30:52,356 --> 00:30:54,156
Speaker 1: And what we forget is that we get used to

658
00:30:54,196 --> 00:30:56,756
Speaker 1: stuff that Again, the best thing in life could happen

659
00:30:56,756 --> 00:30:59,276
Speaker 1: to you, and it's awesome when it first happens, but

660
00:30:59,276 --> 00:31:01,396
Speaker 1: it gets boring over time. I think this is one

661
00:31:01,396 --> 00:31:03,756
Speaker 1: of the reasons that people with just enormous privilege, you know,

662
00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:05,876
Speaker 1: the rich folks that we're living around here, you know,

663
00:31:05,916 --> 00:31:08,036
Speaker 1: hanging out here in La with us, that they don't

664
00:31:08,276 --> 00:31:10,836
Speaker 1: kind of enjoy the great things that are happening to

665
00:31:10,916 --> 00:31:12,956
Speaker 1: them because they're used to it. You know, you fly

666
00:31:13,076 --> 00:31:15,076
Speaker 1: in first class the first time, you're like, oh my god,

667
00:31:15,076 --> 00:31:16,636
Speaker 1: I get a free drink. This seeds so nice.

668
00:31:16,676 --> 00:31:16,996
Speaker 2: Whatever.

669
00:31:17,396 --> 00:31:19,636
Speaker 1: You fly in first class for the fifteenth time, the

670
00:31:19,636 --> 00:31:23,676
Speaker 1: fiftieth time, it's just how you fly. Right. The comforts

671
00:31:23,676 --> 00:31:26,836
Speaker 1: that we bring to ourselves stop being comforting the more

672
00:31:26,876 --> 00:31:30,236
Speaker 1: we have them over time. In contrast the hard work

673
00:31:30,236 --> 00:31:32,236
Speaker 1: we have to put in the little bit of struggle.

674
00:31:32,636 --> 00:31:35,556
Speaker 1: It does two things right. One is that we kind

675
00:31:35,556 --> 00:31:37,556
Speaker 1: of don't get hurt by it as much as we

676
00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:39,956
Speaker 1: think because we get used to that too. Right when

677
00:31:39,956 --> 00:31:43,316
Speaker 1: you're starting a new fitness program. My husband talks about this.

678
00:31:43,356 --> 00:31:45,276
Speaker 1: He was a college swimmer and he remembers, like, you know,

679
00:31:45,276 --> 00:31:47,316
Speaker 1: when the swimming season started and you do the first

680
00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:50,276
Speaker 1: workout and you're so tired, and you're like, I cannot

681
00:31:50,276 --> 00:31:53,116
Speaker 1: do this every day for the next semester. Then two

682
00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:54,716
Speaker 1: weeks into it, you're like, oh, yeah, let's just still

683
00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:56,836
Speaker 1: work out. Right. We forget that we're going to get

684
00:31:56,876 --> 00:31:59,556
Speaker 1: used to the hard stuff too, Right, So we start

685
00:31:59,596 --> 00:32:01,636
Speaker 1: off being really scared by the hard stuff. We start

686
00:32:01,636 --> 00:32:03,996
Speaker 1: off being really scared about getting out of our comfort zone.

687
00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:06,076
Speaker 1: But then once you jump into it, it's just like

688
00:32:06,236 --> 00:32:09,276
Speaker 1: it becomes easier over time. And so this idea we

689
00:32:09,316 --> 00:32:12,156
Speaker 1: get used to stuff, this kind of concept of hedonic adaptation,

690
00:32:12,236 --> 00:32:14,636
Speaker 1: We kind of adapt to stuff in the world. We

691
00:32:14,756 --> 00:32:17,276
Speaker 1: forget that it causes us not to get as much

692
00:32:17,276 --> 00:32:19,276
Speaker 1: happiness out of the comfort stuff because we're going to

693
00:32:19,316 --> 00:32:20,996
Speaker 1: get used to the good stuff. It'll stop being as

694
00:32:20,996 --> 00:32:23,716
Speaker 1: good over time, and the bad stuff won't be as

695
00:32:23,756 --> 00:32:25,676
Speaker 1: bad over time because we'll sort of get used to.

696
00:32:25,636 --> 00:32:28,996
Speaker 3: It, right the non hedonic adaptation. Is there a term

697
00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:29,316
Speaker 3: for that?

698
00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:33,316
Speaker 1: Well, it's like researchers call this kind of affective forecasting bias.

699
00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:35,036
Speaker 1: Is one of the things. We call it what's often

700
00:32:35,076 --> 00:32:37,756
Speaker 1: called the impact bias. That the impact of whatever it is,

701
00:32:38,156 --> 00:32:40,356
Speaker 1: both in terms of it's kind of magnitude of how

702
00:32:40,396 --> 00:32:42,596
Speaker 1: good or how bad something is, and also its duration.

703
00:32:43,156 --> 00:32:45,316
Speaker 1: It just doesn't impact us as much as we think.

704
00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:50,876
Speaker 3: A tangent of this hedonic adaptation. I'm just imagining, like

705
00:32:51,036 --> 00:32:54,156
Speaker 3: the super wealthy guy driving around LA in the fancy car.

706
00:32:54,916 --> 00:32:58,876
Speaker 3: Is that person's attention or my attention? I'll speak for myself.

707
00:32:58,956 --> 00:33:02,676
Speaker 3: I'm you know, I'm not immune from this. Immediately goes

708
00:33:03,076 --> 00:33:06,716
Speaker 3: towards comparison, because there's always somebody who's more successful, more powerful,

709
00:33:06,836 --> 00:33:10,756
Speaker 3: more wealthy, better looking, fitter, you name it, right, Why

710
00:33:10,756 --> 00:33:16,316
Speaker 3: do our brains deal with hedonic adaptation by immediately going there?

711
00:33:16,596 --> 00:33:21,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is just a like, really remarkably common

712
00:33:21,156 --> 00:33:23,716
Speaker 1: feature of our brain. Right, you and I are talking

713
00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:25,636
Speaker 1: in this studio. You get these great lights. There's a

714
00:33:25,636 --> 00:33:28,236
Speaker 1: podcast I'm so jealous of. But when we walk out

715
00:33:28,236 --> 00:33:30,676
Speaker 1: of this really bright space into the rest of the studio,

716
00:33:30,716 --> 00:33:32,956
Speaker 1: we'll be like, oh, man, I didn't even realize when

717
00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:34,796
Speaker 1: I was sitting talking and rich that it was really bright.

718
00:33:34,796 --> 00:33:36,996
Speaker 1: But when I walk out, everything will look kind of dark. Right.

719
00:33:37,756 --> 00:33:40,996
Speaker 1: Our brains are always processing things in this relative way.

720
00:33:41,156 --> 00:33:43,476
Speaker 1: I'm not processing how much objective light is here. I

721
00:33:43,556 --> 00:33:45,196
Speaker 1: just kind of get used to the amount of light here,

722
00:33:45,276 --> 00:33:47,356
Speaker 1: and then when I walk outside, now all of a sudden,

723
00:33:47,356 --> 00:33:50,076
Speaker 1: it's brighter, it's darker, or something like that. That's our

724
00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:52,756
Speaker 1: visual system getting used to stuff. But the fact that

725
00:33:52,796 --> 00:33:54,676
Speaker 1: we get used to stuff that we think in terms

726
00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:57,436
Speaker 1: of these relative things over time rather than like what

727
00:33:57,516 --> 00:34:00,196
Speaker 1: objectively is going on, that's just a general feature of

728
00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:03,436
Speaker 1: how our mind works for everything, So nobody thinks of

729
00:34:03,476 --> 00:34:06,556
Speaker 1: their salary as being objectively good or objectively bad. If

730
00:34:06,556 --> 00:34:08,596
Speaker 1: you think how your salary is going, you just think

731
00:34:08,756 --> 00:34:11,476
Speaker 1: I meet in terms of like, well, what is the

732
00:34:11,476 --> 00:34:13,676
Speaker 1: guy next to me in the office making or like.

733
00:34:14,196 --> 00:34:16,716
Speaker 3: That comparison is very much a function of proximity.

734
00:34:16,956 --> 00:34:20,236
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and what's terrible about the comparison is that,

735
00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:21,876
Speaker 1: like it never goes in the good way.

736
00:34:22,276 --> 00:34:22,436
Speaker 3: Right.

737
00:34:22,476 --> 00:34:24,076
Speaker 1: There might be tons of people sitting next to you

738
00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:25,796
Speaker 1: that aren't making as much money, that aren't as hot

739
00:34:25,796 --> 00:34:27,356
Speaker 1: as you, they didn't have as good a vacation as you,

740
00:34:27,396 --> 00:34:28,796
Speaker 1: that doesn't have a nice a car view, and you

741
00:34:28,876 --> 00:34:31,356
Speaker 1: just like don't notice those people. This is what happens

742
00:34:31,356 --> 00:34:33,396
Speaker 1: in La, right. I mean even driving here and again

743
00:34:33,436 --> 00:34:35,356
Speaker 1: I fall prey to the stuff too, you know, driving here,

744
00:34:35,756 --> 00:34:37,636
Speaker 1: you know, I was like driving right next to this

745
00:34:37,796 --> 00:34:40,196
Speaker 1: like super souped up white Porsche, and I was like, oh,

746
00:34:40,196 --> 00:34:42,756
Speaker 1: that's such a cool white Porsche. Right, I'm noticing the

747
00:34:42,756 --> 00:34:44,756
Speaker 1: car that's crappier than my rental car, But I didn't

748
00:34:44,756 --> 00:34:47,156
Speaker 1: notice the hundreds, maybe thousands of other cars on the

749
00:34:47,196 --> 00:34:49,596
Speaker 1: streets of La that like just were unremarkable.

750
00:34:49,636 --> 00:34:52,836
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good. It's it's fun and easy to you know,

751
00:34:52,996 --> 00:34:56,676
Speaker 3: poke at the billionaire who's all been out of shape

752
00:34:56,716 --> 00:34:59,276
Speaker 3: because there's another guy at the cocktail party that has

753
00:34:59,476 --> 00:35:02,316
Speaker 3: you know, a billion more than him, Like how could

754
00:35:02,356 --> 00:35:05,796
Speaker 3: you possibly you know, think that. But it's just an

755
00:35:05,796 --> 00:35:07,436
Speaker 3: extreme version of what we all do.

756
00:35:07,996 --> 00:35:11,476
Speaker 1: And like the data this is like just they're so funny.

757
00:35:11,476 --> 00:35:14,796
Speaker 1: There's one really funny study. It was in Europe where

758
00:35:14,836 --> 00:35:17,316
Speaker 1: they do lotteries a little bit differently. So here, the

759
00:35:17,316 --> 00:35:18,876
Speaker 1: lottery in the US is like you go buy a

760
00:35:18,916 --> 00:35:21,636
Speaker 1: powerball ticket, if your number comes up, you win. The

761
00:35:21,676 --> 00:35:23,316
Speaker 1: way they do them in Europe is often they do

762
00:35:23,396 --> 00:35:26,236
Speaker 1: it's called a postcode lottery. So I'm in ZIP code

763
00:35:26,276 --> 00:35:28,756
Speaker 1: like zero six five one one, and they're going to

764
00:35:28,836 --> 00:35:31,316
Speaker 1: pull a lottery ticket that's just going to say my postcode,

765
00:35:31,356 --> 00:35:33,676
Speaker 1: and if I played, then in my postcode, my whole

766
00:35:33,676 --> 00:35:35,636
Speaker 1: postcode will win. If I didn't play, I don't get it.

767
00:35:36,116 --> 00:35:38,716
Speaker 1: What's the consequence of this type of lottery system. If

768
00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:41,916
Speaker 1: your postcode is called and you didn't play, you're going

769
00:35:41,956 --> 00:35:43,756
Speaker 1: to have a bunch of people around you who like

770
00:35:43,996 --> 00:35:45,276
Speaker 1: one something.

771
00:35:45,156 --> 00:35:47,516
Speaker 3: Like they all want like the worst case scenario for.

772
00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:49,556
Speaker 1: You it's great. It's great for the lottery because a

773
00:35:49,596 --> 00:35:52,276
Speaker 1: lot of people want to play the lottery and regret insurance. Right.

774
00:35:52,756 --> 00:35:54,596
Speaker 1: But one of these lotteries was a lottery that gave

775
00:35:54,636 --> 00:35:57,156
Speaker 1: people a new car, right, And so people in the postcode,

776
00:35:57,196 --> 00:35:58,676
Speaker 1: if they're a lottery number, cam up, they got a

777
00:35:58,676 --> 00:36:01,116
Speaker 1: new car. What they found is that sales of lottery

778
00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:04,156
Speaker 1: cars of the non winners went up when people won,

779
00:36:04,316 --> 00:36:05,836
Speaker 1: of course, because like you're like, yeah, I want to

780
00:36:05,836 --> 00:36:06,676
Speaker 1: be the only one in my time.

781
00:36:07,396 --> 00:36:10,796
Speaker 3: You left out, You're going to get you know, booted

782
00:36:10,836 --> 00:36:11,716
Speaker 3: out of the tribe.

783
00:36:11,996 --> 00:36:14,196
Speaker 1: And this is true, you know, in the context of

784
00:36:14,276 --> 00:36:16,996
Speaker 1: material goods. It's definitely true for my poor students, in

785
00:36:17,036 --> 00:36:19,716
Speaker 1: the context of grades. It's true in the context of looks,

786
00:36:20,036 --> 00:36:21,876
Speaker 1: and our brains are just bad at it. We're just

787
00:36:21,956 --> 00:36:24,876
Speaker 1: good at finding people who are better than us. And

788
00:36:25,196 --> 00:36:28,036
Speaker 1: sometimes that's us, right, I think in the context of fitness,

789
00:36:28,036 --> 00:36:30,396
Speaker 1: in the context of looks. Right, all of us are

790
00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:33,596
Speaker 1: getting older over time, like we're moving towards a reference

791
00:36:33,636 --> 00:36:35,876
Speaker 1: point that's going to make us feel crappy about ourselves

792
00:36:35,916 --> 00:36:39,876
Speaker 1: if not now, ten years, twenty years, right, And so yeah,

793
00:36:39,956 --> 00:36:42,436
Speaker 1: minds are built to not be objective They're built to

794
00:36:42,436 --> 00:36:45,516
Speaker 1: pay attention to stuff in this relative fashion, and they

795
00:36:45,796 --> 00:36:49,116
Speaker 1: seek out reference points that make us feel crappy. I

796
00:36:49,116 --> 00:36:51,996
Speaker 1: did this consulting with a basketball team where I was

797
00:36:51,996 --> 00:36:55,676
Speaker 1: talking about social comparison a professional basketball team, and that's

798
00:36:55,676 --> 00:36:57,316
Speaker 1: something that comes up all the time. You know, who's

799
00:36:57,356 --> 00:36:59,316
Speaker 1: doing better than you was making more money, and I

800
00:36:59,356 --> 00:37:01,356
Speaker 1: was asking, well, you know, who's the reference point for

801
00:37:01,596 --> 00:37:03,116
Speaker 1: you know, salary, And at the time it was like

802
00:37:03,156 --> 00:37:04,996
Speaker 1: Steph Carry. I was like, okay, Steph Carry, Like who's

803
00:37:04,996 --> 00:37:07,396
Speaker 1: the reference point for like three point shots? And like, oh,

804
00:37:07,396 --> 00:37:09,516
Speaker 1: Steph Cary. I was like, who's the reference for the

805
00:37:09,516 --> 00:37:11,796
Speaker 1: best height in the NBA? And they're like Taco fails,

806
00:37:11,836 --> 00:37:13,676
Speaker 1: Like wait, why is it not Steph Curry anymore? Steph

807
00:37:13,716 --> 00:37:15,836
Speaker 1: Curry was the reference point for everything else, but in

808
00:37:15,876 --> 00:37:17,916
Speaker 1: the one domain where you're like doing better than him,

809
00:37:17,956 --> 00:37:20,756
Speaker 1: now he's not the reference point anymore. And like, that's

810
00:37:20,796 --> 00:37:22,716
Speaker 1: just how our minds work. We just pick the one

811
00:37:22,756 --> 00:37:24,716
Speaker 1: thing that makes us feel crappy about ourselves.

812
00:37:24,876 --> 00:37:29,756
Speaker 3: And yet when we see those individuals who somehow have

813
00:37:29,956 --> 00:37:36,316
Speaker 3: immunized themselves against this compulsion that's so human and stand

814
00:37:36,476 --> 00:37:41,756
Speaker 3: proudly as themselves without concern for whatever. Anybody thinks about

815
00:37:41,756 --> 00:37:46,076
Speaker 3: what they're doing, and they're not comparing themselves to anyone else,

816
00:37:46,116 --> 00:37:49,076
Speaker 3: and they're just doing their thing. These are happy people

817
00:37:49,596 --> 00:37:53,156
Speaker 3: and there's a magnetism to that. Like when you see

818
00:37:53,196 --> 00:37:57,316
Speaker 3: those people, it's inspirational. You're like, wow, like, how can

819
00:37:57,356 --> 00:37:59,476
Speaker 3: I be more like that? And then we go right

820
00:37:59,516 --> 00:38:01,516
Speaker 3: back to comparing ourselves, you know what I mean. I

821
00:38:01,556 --> 00:38:05,636
Speaker 3: was thinking about that yesterday. I had Bob roth On here,

822
00:38:05,676 --> 00:38:07,876
Speaker 3: who runs the David Lynch Foundation, and we were talking

823
00:38:07,916 --> 00:38:12,436
Speaker 3: about David Lynch. I'm obsessed with this guy and he's like, why, Like,

824
00:38:12,476 --> 00:38:14,796
Speaker 3: what is it about him? You know that captures you?

825
00:38:14,836 --> 00:38:17,556
Speaker 3: And I said that very thing. It's like he's so

826
00:38:18,876 --> 00:38:22,836
Speaker 3: thoroughly himself and that's very attractive quality.

827
00:38:23,196 --> 00:38:25,316
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's a really hard quality to

828
00:38:25,356 --> 00:38:27,516
Speaker 1: go after it because our minds are not Our minds

829
00:38:27,516 --> 00:38:30,356
Speaker 1: are really built to be paying attention to other individuals do.

830
00:38:31,036 --> 00:38:33,116
Speaker 1: And I think that was bad enough back in the

831
00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:35,436
Speaker 1: evolutionary day when we were part of bands of people

832
00:38:35,476 --> 00:38:37,076
Speaker 1: were you know, one hundred, two hundred strong.

833
00:38:37,116 --> 00:38:39,796
Speaker 3: It's a threat, it's to your membership.

834
00:38:39,316 --> 00:38:41,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's so much worse when that membership is

835
00:38:41,796 --> 00:38:45,756
Speaker 1: everybody on TikTok or everybody on Instagram. Right. I think

836
00:38:45,796 --> 00:38:47,596
Speaker 1: this is something that comes up a lot. I see

837
00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:50,436
Speaker 1: my college students talk about this where you know, when

838
00:38:50,476 --> 00:38:52,596
Speaker 1: I was in college, you could have these like dorky hobbies.

839
00:38:52,636 --> 00:38:53,916
Speaker 1: You could be like, you know, I don't know, like

840
00:38:53,956 --> 00:38:56,756
Speaker 1: solve Rubik's cubes really fast, or like be like in

841
00:38:56,796 --> 00:38:59,636
Speaker 1: a cool band, right, like you played bass really well. Now,

842
00:38:59,636 --> 00:39:01,556
Speaker 1: I feel like our poor college students can never feel

843
00:39:01,556 --> 00:39:03,676
Speaker 1: like they do anything really well because they immediately go

844
00:39:03,716 --> 00:39:06,396
Speaker 1: on the internet. However fast you solve the Rubik's cube,

845
00:39:06,396 --> 00:39:09,596
Speaker 1: there's somebody who's doing it blindfolded and much faster than you.

846
00:39:09,916 --> 00:39:11,876
Speaker 3: And so maybe they're learning that lesson earlier.

847
00:39:12,636 --> 00:39:16,676
Speaker 1: I don't think so, Okay, I think they're just much

848
00:39:16,716 --> 00:39:17,756
Speaker 1: more paralyzed by it.

849
00:39:17,836 --> 00:39:19,956
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you can also, I mean, I know you

850
00:39:19,996 --> 00:39:23,516
Speaker 3: have a lot to say about the digital landscape, and

851
00:39:23,596 --> 00:39:25,836
Speaker 3: you know how social media is driving a lot of

852
00:39:25,836 --> 00:39:31,276
Speaker 3: the malevolence here. But there are millions of subcommunities now

853
00:39:31,316 --> 00:39:36,476
Speaker 3: for every you know, bizarre interest and that lonely kid

854
00:39:36,676 --> 00:39:39,356
Speaker 3: who is the only person he or she knows that's

855
00:39:39,396 --> 00:39:43,476
Speaker 3: into you know, name name, your weird hobby can go

856
00:39:43,516 --> 00:39:46,076
Speaker 3: on Reddit or one of these places and find like

857
00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:49,516
Speaker 3: minded individuals and have some sense of connection and community there.

858
00:39:49,636 --> 00:39:51,636
Speaker 3: Totally total black and white thing.

859
00:39:51,596 --> 00:39:53,116
Speaker 1: No, And I think I think this is one of

860
00:39:53,196 --> 00:39:55,956
Speaker 1: the tricks with social media and really all of our technology.

861
00:39:56,036 --> 00:39:58,556
Speaker 1: Raise it has such good aspects when it comes through

862
00:39:58,556 --> 00:40:01,076
Speaker 1: our happiness. There's such real potential to use this in

863
00:40:01,156 --> 00:40:04,356
Speaker 1: positive ways, to increase social connection, to get her better

864
00:40:04,396 --> 00:40:07,596
Speaker 1: sense of purpose, you know, honestly, to see reference points

865
00:40:07,596 --> 00:40:09,636
Speaker 1: that should make you feel really good about yourself.

866
00:40:09,716 --> 00:40:09,876
Speaker 2: Right.

867
00:40:09,956 --> 00:40:11,676
Speaker 1: But like, I'm just like the fact that you are

868
00:40:11,956 --> 00:40:13,756
Speaker 1: anyone listened to this right now is privilege.

869
00:40:13,796 --> 00:40:13,956
Speaker 3: Right.

870
00:40:13,956 --> 00:40:16,076
Speaker 1: You have a technology that you can use to access this,

871
00:40:16,636 --> 00:40:18,916
Speaker 1: you have hearing right it like it is working, right

872
00:40:18,956 --> 00:40:21,076
Speaker 1: you you know, probably eyes are working if you're watching

873
00:40:21,116 --> 00:40:24,156
Speaker 1: this on YouTube. Right. Those are incredible privileges that we

874
00:40:24,156 --> 00:40:26,116
Speaker 1: can look to other people to feel good about, to

875
00:40:26,116 --> 00:40:28,236
Speaker 1: remember like, oh, that wasn't a given in life. Right.

876
00:40:28,556 --> 00:40:30,276
Speaker 1: And so the point is that we can use technology

877
00:40:30,316 --> 00:40:32,596
Speaker 1: in all these positive ways when it comes to our happiness.

878
00:40:32,636 --> 00:40:34,596
Speaker 1: The problem is that we tend not to use it

879
00:40:34,596 --> 00:40:37,556
Speaker 1: in those positive ways. And I think sometimes the technologies

880
00:40:37,556 --> 00:40:39,996
Speaker 1: themselves are set up with algorithms that are set up

881
00:40:40,036 --> 00:40:41,916
Speaker 1: to kind of lead us towards the not so good

882
00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:43,316
Speaker 1: ways for technologies.

883
00:40:43,636 --> 00:40:46,996
Speaker 3: You have a rewirable around this as well, though, Like

884
00:40:47,036 --> 00:40:50,716
Speaker 3: the idea to the solution to this comparison problem in

885
00:40:50,796 --> 00:40:53,956
Speaker 3: terms of actions that you can take is to use

886
00:40:53,996 --> 00:40:56,476
Speaker 3: this what do you call it, the bronze.

887
00:40:56,276 --> 00:40:59,556
Speaker 1: Yeah, the bronze medallists, Yeah, yeah, which the joke is

888
00:40:59,596 --> 00:41:02,156
Speaker 1: we always have this idea of look for the silver lining,

889
00:41:02,236 --> 00:41:04,316
Speaker 1: and the joke as you look for the bronze lining.

890
00:41:04,316 --> 00:41:07,796
Speaker 1: And this actually comes from a sports domain too. One

891
00:41:07,836 --> 00:41:10,916
Speaker 1: of the most famous studies of social comparison in the

892
00:41:10,916 --> 00:41:14,956
Speaker 1: field of psychology was a study of Olympic medalists looking

893
00:41:14,956 --> 00:41:17,196
Speaker 1: at the emotions they show on the stand. And what

894
00:41:17,236 --> 00:41:19,516
Speaker 1: you find is that gold medalists, you know, best best

895
00:41:19,636 --> 00:41:23,276
Speaker 1: in their sport, are showing like, really strong positive emotions.

896
00:41:23,596 --> 00:41:26,796
Speaker 1: But the silver medalists aren't just showing slightly less positive emotions.

897
00:41:26,876 --> 00:41:30,396
Speaker 1: They're showing incredibly negative emotions. Their facial expressions show things

898
00:41:30,436 --> 00:41:33,916
Speaker 1: like contempt, deep sadness, anger, and these kinds of things.

899
00:41:34,316 --> 00:41:36,636
Speaker 1: And that's because of social comparison, Right, you were so

900
00:41:36,836 --> 00:41:38,676
Speaker 1: close to being the best in the world and you're not,

901
00:41:39,156 --> 00:41:41,556
Speaker 1: and rather than feeling like you beat billions of people

902
00:41:41,556 --> 00:41:44,196
Speaker 1: in your sport, which you did. You find very sailing.

903
00:41:44,276 --> 00:41:44,836
Speaker 3: You're haunted.

904
00:41:44,956 --> 00:41:48,916
Speaker 1: You're haunted by one person, right, that's a silver medallist.

905
00:41:48,956 --> 00:41:50,996
Speaker 1: And the reason why it's the kind of bronze lining

906
00:41:51,076 --> 00:41:53,916
Speaker 1: that matters is that if you look at the bronze medalists,

907
00:41:53,916 --> 00:41:56,876
Speaker 1: you might think that they're even more contemptuous, more angry

908
00:41:56,916 --> 00:42:00,596
Speaker 1: than the silver medalists. But no, because the bronze medalist's

909
00:42:00,676 --> 00:42:03,756
Speaker 1: reference point isn't gold. They were multiple seconds or multiple

910
00:42:03,796 --> 00:42:06,196
Speaker 1: whatever it was in their sport. Away from that, their

911
00:42:06,196 --> 00:42:08,636
Speaker 1: assailient reference point is like if I was just like

912
00:42:08,636 --> 00:42:10,796
Speaker 1: a teeny tiny bit slower, I wouldn't be up here

913
00:42:10,796 --> 00:42:13,476
Speaker 1: at I've going home empty handed. And so it turns

914
00:42:13,516 --> 00:42:15,876
Speaker 1: out that the bronze medalist, in some cases and these studies,

915
00:42:15,916 --> 00:42:18,316
Speaker 1: are actually happier than the gold medalists, like they're showing

916
00:42:18,356 --> 00:42:21,156
Speaker 1: like incredible elation because they're like, oh my gosh. And

917
00:42:21,196 --> 00:42:23,756
Speaker 1: this is why like finding the bronze lining instead of

918
00:42:23,756 --> 00:42:26,716
Speaker 1: the silver lining, because I can for any trait you

919
00:42:26,756 --> 00:42:29,476
Speaker 1: care about, there are people who are doing a lot

920
00:42:29,516 --> 00:42:31,716
Speaker 1: worse than you, right, And if they're not doing a

921
00:42:31,756 --> 00:42:33,756
Speaker 1: lot worse than you, on that particular trait you're looking at.

922
00:42:33,876 --> 00:42:35,956
Speaker 1: Just broaden your horizon a little bit to be like, again,

923
00:42:36,476 --> 00:42:38,676
Speaker 1: if you're watching this or listening to this right now,

924
00:42:39,156 --> 00:42:41,076
Speaker 1: you have hearing in a way that not everybody on

925
00:42:41,076 --> 00:42:43,276
Speaker 1: the planet has. You're the privilege of owning this technology,

926
00:42:43,276 --> 00:42:45,436
Speaker 1: which not everybody has. You have your phone that didn't

927
00:42:45,436 --> 00:42:48,396
Speaker 1: break ten minutes ago, right, which it could have done. Right. Like,

928
00:42:48,436 --> 00:42:51,156
Speaker 1: when we kind of take a broader perspective, we can

929
00:42:51,236 --> 00:42:54,876
Speaker 1: use our social comparison to realize we're actually doing pretty good.

930
00:42:55,836 --> 00:42:58,076
Speaker 3: How do you give more than lip service to that though,

931
00:42:58,116 --> 00:43:00,716
Speaker 3: because it's it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can hear,

932
00:43:00,836 --> 00:43:02,916
Speaker 3: I can see fine, Like I know what you're saying.

933
00:43:03,076 --> 00:43:06,236
Speaker 1: But so the butt, the butt, the butt. Yeah, Well,

934
00:43:06,316 --> 00:43:08,036
Speaker 1: like all things, you got to do this strategy. But

935
00:43:08,036 --> 00:43:10,196
Speaker 1: here's the strategy that I like. And it comes both

936
00:43:10,236 --> 00:43:12,116
Speaker 1: from what we were talking about before in terms of

937
00:43:12,196 --> 00:43:15,356
Speaker 1: using our imagination in positive ways, and it gets back

938
00:43:15,356 --> 00:43:17,556
Speaker 1: to the ancients. This is a technique that the ancient

939
00:43:17,556 --> 00:43:20,836
Speaker 1: Stoics talked about. They called it negative visualization. But here's

940
00:43:20,876 --> 00:43:23,236
Speaker 1: how it goes. When I leave the studio right now,

941
00:43:23,276 --> 00:43:24,716
Speaker 1: I'm going to get hit by a car. I'm going

942
00:43:24,756 --> 00:43:26,636
Speaker 1: to lose the use of my legs. My phone's going

943
00:43:26,676 --> 00:43:27,796
Speaker 1: to be dead, and I'm not going to be able

944
00:43:27,836 --> 00:43:29,556
Speaker 1: to find my next appointment because I don't have a

945
00:43:29,556 --> 00:43:32,716
Speaker 1: phone anymore. Something terrible is going to happen to my husband,

946
00:43:32,796 --> 00:43:34,356
Speaker 1: and I'm going to get a horrible phone call, like

947
00:43:34,396 --> 00:43:35,996
Speaker 1: I'm not going to win that. That's not going to happen.

948
00:43:36,676 --> 00:43:40,916
Speaker 1: That took me like what thirty seconds. Instantly, I'm much

949
00:43:40,956 --> 00:43:43,556
Speaker 1: more grateful for my phone, much more grateful for my legs.

950
00:43:43,556 --> 00:43:44,956
Speaker 1: I'm going to call my husband when I got out

951
00:43:44,956 --> 00:43:46,916
Speaker 1: of this and be like, I didn't guard something terrible

952
00:43:46,956 --> 00:43:49,436
Speaker 1: didn't happen to you, write honey, are you okay? That's

953
00:43:49,516 --> 00:43:52,076
Speaker 1: negative visualization. The stoics thought that you should start every

954
00:43:52,116 --> 00:43:55,316
Speaker 1: morning being like I was exiled. I will lose my health,

955
00:43:55,356 --> 00:43:57,436
Speaker 1: I will lose my house, I will lose my money.

956
00:43:57,836 --> 00:43:59,196
Speaker 1: And you take a deep breath and you say, hey,

957
00:43:59,196 --> 00:44:00,996
Speaker 1: that didn't happen. Now, all of a sudden, you're a

958
00:44:00,996 --> 00:44:03,676
Speaker 1: little bit more kind of grateful for those things. I

959
00:44:03,756 --> 00:44:07,316
Speaker 1: do this negative visualization exercise in my talks. Lately, I've

960
00:44:07,316 --> 00:44:09,036
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of work on parenting and talk

961
00:44:09,156 --> 00:44:11,436
Speaker 1: can do parents about happiness, and I say, do a

962
00:44:11,476 --> 00:44:14,116
Speaker 1: quick negative visualization. The last time you saw your kids,

963
00:44:14,236 --> 00:44:15,796
Speaker 1: that was the last time you're ever going to see them.

964
00:44:16,156 --> 00:44:18,996
Speaker 1: They're gone, never going to see them again. My guess

965
00:44:19,076 --> 00:44:21,796
Speaker 1: is the next time even people listening see their kids

966
00:44:21,876 --> 00:44:24,076
Speaker 1: or hug them, you're going to hug them a little bit.

967
00:44:24,156 --> 00:44:26,756
Speaker 1: Like that's the power of imagination. It doesn't take us

968
00:44:26,836 --> 00:44:29,636
Speaker 1: long to get to a reference point of we don't

969
00:44:29,636 --> 00:44:31,476
Speaker 1: have the good things that we have in our lives.

970
00:44:32,196 --> 00:44:33,996
Speaker 1: You just have to take a practice to do that,

971
00:44:34,196 --> 00:44:35,836
Speaker 1: to recognize that a little bit more.

972
00:44:36,356 --> 00:44:39,516
Speaker 3: We all know people in our lives though that see

973
00:44:39,556 --> 00:44:42,796
Speaker 3: the world through a very negative lens, like nothing's ever

974
00:44:42,836 --> 00:44:46,476
Speaker 3: going to work out, Like I'm worthless. It's only a

975
00:44:46,516 --> 00:44:48,596
Speaker 3: matter of time before I get fired, and then I'm

976
00:44:48,636 --> 00:44:50,436
Speaker 3: going to be homeless, and like I'm going to be

977
00:44:50,476 --> 00:44:52,916
Speaker 3: starving on the street and I'm just going to die,

978
00:44:52,996 --> 00:44:55,716
Speaker 3: you know, like I know a lot of these people. Yeah,

979
00:44:55,756 --> 00:44:57,956
Speaker 3: So the key is that this sty to share it

980
00:44:58,036 --> 00:45:01,676
Speaker 3: isn't isn't quite like it's a different thing. But like, notice.

981
00:45:02,996 --> 00:45:05,756
Speaker 1: You do this like all day into the evening, two

982
00:45:05,756 --> 00:45:07,276
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. They said, just do it really

983
00:45:07,356 --> 00:45:08,676
Speaker 1: quickly and realize you can.

984
00:45:08,556 --> 00:45:11,156
Speaker 3: Show get for the normal person. But what is the

985
00:45:11,396 --> 00:45:15,236
Speaker 3: antidote for somebody who's really caught up in this looping

986
00:45:15,516 --> 00:45:19,956
Speaker 3: negative pattern of the mind that then translates into how

987
00:45:19,956 --> 00:45:21,876
Speaker 3: they show up in the world, and then they do

988
00:45:21,956 --> 00:45:26,516
Speaker 3: manifest negative outcomes in their life because they're walking through life,

989
00:45:26,756 --> 00:45:30,116
Speaker 3: you know, staring at their feet and expecting everything to

990
00:45:30,196 --> 00:45:34,116
Speaker 3: go terribly wrong and kind of on some level like

991
00:45:34,476 --> 00:45:38,116
Speaker 3: are co creating that real world experience.

992
00:45:38,396 --> 00:45:40,756
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's two strategies. One is a strategy

993
00:45:40,996 --> 00:45:43,836
Speaker 1: just to shift your attention to the positive stuff. And

994
00:45:43,876 --> 00:45:45,836
Speaker 1: this is what comes out of a gratitude practice. I

995
00:45:45,836 --> 00:45:47,876
Speaker 1: feel like this is kind of in the common ether

996
00:45:47,956 --> 00:45:50,316
Speaker 1: about people talking about the power of gratitude, right, just

997
00:45:50,356 --> 00:45:52,596
Speaker 1: taking a moment to notice the good stuff, even the

998
00:45:52,596 --> 00:45:55,316
Speaker 1: little good stuff. The reason this is powerful is that

999
00:45:55,396 --> 00:45:57,556
Speaker 1: it trains our attention to do the opposite of what

1000
00:45:57,596 --> 00:45:59,876
Speaker 1: we naturally do. We're naturally built to have this like

1001
00:45:59,996 --> 00:46:03,276
Speaker 1: negativity bias where we're noticing, well, my car's not good enough,

1002
00:46:03,356 --> 00:46:05,356
Speaker 1: or that bad thing happened. There's so much traffic today,

1003
00:46:05,356 --> 00:46:07,356
Speaker 1: the weather's so crummy in la today, which, by the way,

1004
00:46:07,516 --> 00:46:08,396
Speaker 1: rather it is kind of growing.

1005
00:46:08,516 --> 00:46:12,276
Speaker 3: It's been terrible believe me, I'm all upset about it.

1006
00:46:12,316 --> 00:46:15,516
Speaker 1: They keep going, rather than like the temperature is actually

1007
00:46:15,596 --> 00:46:16,516
Speaker 1: quite pleasant.

1008
00:46:16,236 --> 00:46:18,596
Speaker 3: It's not you know, like we've been rain and it's

1009
00:46:18,636 --> 00:46:19,956
Speaker 3: beautiful and the hills are.

1010
00:46:19,876 --> 00:46:23,196
Speaker 1: Alive and exactly, yeah, no, it just so beautiful out.

1011
00:46:23,276 --> 00:46:25,876
Speaker 1: But this is where our brain normally goes negativity bias,

1012
00:46:25,876 --> 00:46:28,636
Speaker 1: Oh the weather's so crummy, rather than my god, we

1013
00:46:28,676 --> 00:46:30,076
Speaker 1: need a rain. This is great. This is going to

1014
00:46:30,116 --> 00:46:32,516
Speaker 1: protect LA from all the yucky stuff that happens here. Right,

1015
00:46:32,556 --> 00:46:35,596
Speaker 1: And so this this is the practice of gratitude. Right.

1016
00:46:35,596 --> 00:46:38,436
Speaker 1: You're training your attention, which normally just gloms on to

1017
00:46:38,516 --> 00:46:41,716
Speaker 1: the bad stuff, to find the good things. Sometimes when

1018
00:46:41,716 --> 00:46:44,956
Speaker 1: I talk to people, they find gratitude to be like hard,

1019
00:46:45,076 --> 00:46:47,196
Speaker 1: or you really have to be grateful, or it feels cheesy.

1020
00:46:47,676 --> 00:46:51,476
Speaker 1: Another practice I love, which comes from the novelist Rosque

1021
00:46:51,476 --> 00:46:54,316
Speaker 1: who's this book called the Book of Delights. He says,

1022
00:46:54,396 --> 00:46:56,556
Speaker 1: rather than going for things that you're grateful for, which

1023
00:46:56,596 --> 00:46:59,476
Speaker 1: kind of feels like I falu in or hard, just

1024
00:46:59,556 --> 00:47:02,876
Speaker 1: notice delights on the way here. I was at the

1025
00:47:02,956 --> 00:47:06,036
Speaker 1: airport coming into Lax and there's just like one restroom

1026
00:47:06,076 --> 00:47:07,756
Speaker 1: in the ladies room that was like this orchid there,

1027
00:47:07,796 --> 00:47:09,556
Speaker 1: and I was like, who's the staff who put it

1028
00:47:09,596 --> 00:47:12,236
Speaker 1: work in there? Just like the delight We're like driving here,

1029
00:47:12,236 --> 00:47:15,356
Speaker 1: there was somebody like blasting like Cypress Hill out of

1030
00:47:15,356 --> 00:47:17,716
Speaker 1: his car like in a lowrider and just like really

1031
00:47:17,716 --> 00:47:19,956
Speaker 1: savoring and being into Cypress Hill. And I was like,

1032
00:47:20,036 --> 00:47:22,996
Speaker 1: that's a little delight. LA is so cool? Right, I'm

1033
00:47:22,996 --> 00:47:25,276
Speaker 1: not taking extra work to like find these things that

1034
00:47:25,276 --> 00:47:27,756
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for whatever. I'm just noticing, like the

1035
00:47:27,756 --> 00:47:31,036
Speaker 1: world has these good, funny things that are amusing, that

1036
00:47:31,076 --> 00:47:33,756
Speaker 1: are beautiful, that are nice, you just like train your

1037
00:47:33,796 --> 00:47:35,956
Speaker 1: brain to find. With Rosque, in his book The Book

1038
00:47:35,956 --> 00:47:39,156
Speaker 1: of Delights, he wrote an essay about one delight every day.

1039
00:47:39,596 --> 00:47:41,076
Speaker 1: And what that did was it made him he had

1040
00:47:41,076 --> 00:47:42,356
Speaker 1: to find a delight because he had to write the

1041
00:47:42,436 --> 00:47:44,436
Speaker 1: essay about it, right. And so I find that writing

1042
00:47:44,436 --> 00:47:47,396
Speaker 1: these things down or finding someone you can share delights with.

1043
00:47:47,476 --> 00:47:49,636
Speaker 1: I have some friends that I like will just text

1044
00:47:49,636 --> 00:47:51,596
Speaker 1: a delight too, you know, like my god, dude listening

1045
00:47:51,596 --> 00:47:54,076
Speaker 1: to Cypress Hill and his lowrider delight. You know, like

1046
00:47:54,636 --> 00:47:56,516
Speaker 1: what you're doing there is you're training your mind that

1047
00:47:56,556 --> 00:47:58,876
Speaker 1: would normally be looking for all the lucky stuff to

1048
00:47:58,956 --> 00:48:01,476
Speaker 1: find a few of the good things. That's how to

1049
00:48:01,516 --> 00:48:03,676
Speaker 1: train your attention. But the thing you brought up, this

1050
00:48:03,716 --> 00:48:06,436
Speaker 1: sort of ruminating, I think needs another strategy, which is,

1051
00:48:06,476 --> 00:48:09,116
Speaker 1: like you need to find ways to harness more positive

1052
00:48:09,236 --> 00:48:11,316
Speaker 1: self talk or at least nip the bad self talk

1053
00:48:11,316 --> 00:48:13,756
Speaker 1: in the bud. And one of the great ways for

1054
00:48:13,836 --> 00:48:15,476
Speaker 1: doing that, I know you had Ethan Cross on the

1055
00:48:15,476 --> 00:48:17,996
Speaker 1: show recently, is a lot of the strategies he talks

1056
00:48:18,036 --> 00:48:21,756
Speaker 1: about for distance self talk, like literally talk to yourself

1057
00:48:21,956 --> 00:48:23,956
Speaker 1: in the second and third person and I'm like, oh

1058
00:48:23,956 --> 00:48:26,756
Speaker 1: my god, this is so terrible. Me me, me, You

1059
00:48:26,796 --> 00:48:29,476
Speaker 1: just say, Laurie, it's gonna be fine. You've gone through

1060
00:48:29,476 --> 00:48:32,476
Speaker 1: stuff like this before. Like you just switch the pronouns

1061
00:48:32,476 --> 00:48:34,716
Speaker 1: that you use to talk to yourself. And what that

1062
00:48:34,756 --> 00:48:37,276
Speaker 1: does is it puts you in good friend mode, it

1063
00:48:37,276 --> 00:48:39,156
Speaker 1: puts you in mentor mode, it puts you in problem

1064
00:48:39,236 --> 00:48:42,156
Speaker 1: solving mode rather than ruminate all the time. That's a hack,

1065
00:48:42,436 --> 00:48:44,316
Speaker 1: one of Ethan's hacks that I use all the time.

1066
00:48:44,396 --> 00:48:46,796
Speaker 1: And it's like been a game changer for me, because

1067
00:48:46,836 --> 00:48:49,636
Speaker 1: like you just automatically switch the narrative in your head

1068
00:48:49,676 --> 00:48:51,636
Speaker 1: when you're getting real with yourself.

1069
00:48:51,676 --> 00:48:52,516
Speaker 3: Dude, it's not that.

1070
00:48:52,516 --> 00:48:54,476
Speaker 1: Bad come on and you can.

1071
00:48:54,756 --> 00:48:57,716
Speaker 3: It also allows you to be a bit of an

1072
00:48:57,756 --> 00:49:01,596
Speaker 3: objective observer, like you're disidentifying with the problem, and you're

1073
00:49:01,636 --> 00:49:05,476
Speaker 3: bifurcating your identity like, oh, there's me, and then there's

1074
00:49:05,596 --> 00:49:07,796
Speaker 3: like that other voice that is saying all of these

1075
00:49:08,036 --> 00:49:11,236
Speaker 3: things that now needs to sit in the backseat and

1076
00:49:11,276 --> 00:49:12,316
Speaker 3: be quiet for a little while.

1077
00:49:12,476 --> 00:49:14,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it helps you realize your thoughts or

1078
00:49:14,396 --> 00:49:17,636
Speaker 1: your thoughts, which is one of the biggest innovations the

1079
00:49:17,676 --> 00:49:19,876
Speaker 1: human mind has come up with to realize that like, wait,

1080
00:49:19,956 --> 00:49:22,916
Speaker 1: that's not the truth. That's just like the little dialogue

1081
00:49:22,916 --> 00:49:25,196
Speaker 1: that's going on in my brain. I could put a

1082
00:49:25,236 --> 00:49:27,356
Speaker 1: little stop gap there and it'll work better.

1083
00:49:28,756 --> 00:49:35,236
Speaker 3: Human beings are storytelling and story receiving animals, and as

1084
00:49:35,276 --> 00:49:38,356
Speaker 3: you were sharing about the person who is in a

1085
00:49:38,476 --> 00:49:44,116
Speaker 3: negative thought pattern loop, so much of that is anchored

1086
00:49:44,236 --> 00:49:47,316
Speaker 3: in whatever story they're telling themselves about who they are,

1087
00:49:47,396 --> 00:49:50,676
Speaker 3: what they're capable of, and probably a very age old

1088
00:49:50,756 --> 00:49:54,436
Speaker 3: story that maybe they inherited or was impressed upon them,

1089
00:49:54,716 --> 00:49:59,036
Speaker 3: but nonetheless become cemented in such a way that we

1090
00:49:59,316 --> 00:50:02,316
Speaker 3: rarely question it. And for the person who's waking up

1091
00:50:02,316 --> 00:50:04,316
Speaker 3: every day and saying it's going to go terrible and

1092
00:50:04,356 --> 00:50:07,356
Speaker 3: this bad thing is going to happen. I believe we

1093
00:50:07,396 --> 00:50:11,156
Speaker 3: have the power to sort of change that narrative. And

1094
00:50:11,836 --> 00:50:15,356
Speaker 3: the practice that seems like it would be effective is

1095
00:50:15,396 --> 00:50:17,396
Speaker 3: to kind of do an inventory at the end of

1096
00:50:17,396 --> 00:50:19,916
Speaker 3: the day or in the morning and say, Okay, here's

1097
00:50:19,956 --> 00:50:26,476
Speaker 3: what actually happened, and reaffirming where the bad thing didn't happen,

1098
00:50:26,556 --> 00:50:28,796
Speaker 3: like and something could happen instead, and like you know,

1099
00:50:29,076 --> 00:50:32,716
Speaker 3: kind of starting to attune your attention to all of

1100
00:50:32,756 --> 00:50:34,796
Speaker 3: those things as a way of kind of creating a

1101
00:50:34,836 --> 00:50:38,076
Speaker 3: new neural pathway. Does that make sense? Is there science

1102
00:50:38,076 --> 00:50:39,276
Speaker 3: behind that or yeah?

1103
00:50:39,356 --> 00:50:42,836
Speaker 1: Totally. I think it's partly using that negative visualization like

1104
00:50:42,876 --> 00:50:44,956
Speaker 1: it could have gone bad but it didn't kind of thing,

1105
00:50:44,996 --> 00:50:47,716
Speaker 1: which is powerful. But it also fits with what a

1106
00:50:47,756 --> 00:50:49,996
Speaker 1: lot of the science shows is the power of practices

1107
00:50:50,076 --> 00:50:52,076
Speaker 1: like journaling, right, which often is the kind of thing

1108
00:50:52,116 --> 00:50:54,836
Speaker 1: people do towards the end of the day. Right. Journaling

1109
00:50:54,836 --> 00:50:59,196
Speaker 1: practices are really powerful because when we're writing down, we

1110
00:50:59,316 --> 00:51:01,436
Speaker 1: kind of just assume that writing is supposed to like

1111
00:51:01,556 --> 00:51:02,596
Speaker 1: have a narrative arc.

1112
00:51:02,716 --> 00:51:02,836
Speaker 3: Right.

1113
00:51:02,956 --> 00:51:04,276
Speaker 1: You kind of got this in like you know, a

1114
00:51:04,356 --> 00:51:06,316
Speaker 1: middle school in high school, right, where it's like it's

1115
00:51:06,356 --> 00:51:08,156
Speaker 1: going to start and it's going to have a conflict,

1116
00:51:08,196 --> 00:51:10,956
Speaker 1: and then you kind of solve conflict. Right, It's very

1117
00:51:10,996 --> 00:51:12,756
Speaker 1: hard in your journaling just to be like this sucks,

1118
00:51:12,796 --> 00:51:15,836
Speaker 1: this is terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible. When you're writing,

1119
00:51:15,836 --> 00:51:18,676
Speaker 1: you kind of brain just automatically goes into like, okay,

1120
00:51:18,676 --> 00:51:20,876
Speaker 1: but how can I make sense of this? Right? We

1121
00:51:20,956 --> 00:51:23,716
Speaker 1: go into sense making, we go into problem solving. It's

1122
00:51:23,796 --> 00:51:25,556
Speaker 1: kind of similar to some of Ethan stuff when you

1123
00:51:25,596 --> 00:51:27,996
Speaker 1: talk like you're a friend. If you take that other perspective,

1124
00:51:28,036 --> 00:51:30,756
Speaker 1: you instantly go into coach mode or mentor mode. When

1125
00:51:30,756 --> 00:51:34,076
Speaker 1: you're writing, you go into sense making mode, into storytelling mode.

1126
00:51:34,236 --> 00:51:37,196
Speaker 1: And there's lots of evidence that expressive writing about whatever

1127
00:51:37,316 --> 00:51:39,116
Speaker 1: the thing is that you're scared about or that you're

1128
00:51:39,156 --> 00:51:42,156
Speaker 1: worried about, you wind up coming up with better problem

1129
00:51:42,236 --> 00:51:45,396
Speaker 1: solving strategies. And some lovely work by Jamie Pennybaker who

1130
00:51:45,756 --> 00:51:47,956
Speaker 1: looked at the power of expressive writing even in domains

1131
00:51:47,956 --> 00:51:50,716
Speaker 1: where people went through terrible trauma. He did some famous

1132
00:51:50,716 --> 00:51:54,236
Speaker 1: work looking at the narratives of Holocaust survivors and found

1133
00:51:54,236 --> 00:51:56,836
Speaker 1: that the people that got content onto paper, that were

1134
00:51:56,876 --> 00:51:59,196
Speaker 1: able to talk about their stories, whether in writing or

1135
00:51:59,196 --> 00:52:01,716
Speaker 1: whether with the interviewer, like they wound up kind of

1136
00:52:01,796 --> 00:52:04,076
Speaker 1: going into sense making, and it had not just a

1137
00:52:04,156 --> 00:52:06,836
Speaker 1: huge effect on how they process that horrible trauma, but

1138
00:52:06,916 --> 00:52:10,356
Speaker 1: also on their health later on, as individuals live longer,

1139
00:52:10,356 --> 00:52:12,396
Speaker 1: they had less heart attacks and so on, because it's

1140
00:52:12,396 --> 00:52:14,516
Speaker 1: like you're not like holding in the body all this stuff.

1141
00:52:14,556 --> 00:52:16,876
Speaker 1: And so I think this practice of express if you

1142
00:52:16,876 --> 00:52:19,156
Speaker 1: get kind of get stuck in this negative thought pattern

1143
00:52:19,196 --> 00:52:22,036
Speaker 1: and nothing works, give yourself an hour to just like

1144
00:52:22,316 --> 00:52:24,916
Speaker 1: get stuff on paper and don't try to have an agenda,

1145
00:52:25,036 --> 00:52:27,436
Speaker 1: just kind of let it go down, and your brain

1146
00:52:27,476 --> 00:52:29,476
Speaker 1: will go into the normal mode it goes into to

1147
00:52:29,516 --> 00:52:30,916
Speaker 1: try to make sense of some stuff.

1148
00:52:32,076 --> 00:52:34,356
Speaker 3: I find that to be very effective in my life.

1149
00:52:34,396 --> 00:52:36,596
Speaker 3: It's something I've been doing for a long time, and

1150
00:52:36,636 --> 00:52:41,196
Speaker 3: I've learned that when I start to resist, like I've

1151
00:52:41,196 --> 00:52:43,556
Speaker 3: done enough, like I need to stop, Like you need

1152
00:52:43,596 --> 00:52:47,356
Speaker 3: to have a certain number of pages that you commit

1153
00:52:47,396 --> 00:52:49,476
Speaker 3: to because something happens, you know.

1154
00:52:49,596 --> 00:52:52,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I said, Yeah, Like then you're.

1155
00:52:52,556 --> 00:52:54,956
Speaker 3: Like suddenly you're writing all this crazy stuff that your

1156
00:52:55,036 --> 00:52:58,916
Speaker 3: unconscious mind gets activated and things start to spill out,

1157
00:52:59,556 --> 00:53:02,716
Speaker 3: and you know more will be revealed.

1158
00:53:03,036 --> 00:53:06,316
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think just remember that, you know, one

1159
00:53:06,316 --> 00:53:07,916
Speaker 1: of the reasons that human mind is school is there's

1160
00:53:07,916 --> 00:53:10,076
Speaker 1: so many different parts in prosses, right, we have so

1161
00:53:10,116 --> 00:53:13,116
Speaker 1: many different kind of narrators coming online, and like there's

1162
00:53:13,116 --> 00:53:15,236
Speaker 1: a narrator in there that wants to understand things and

1163
00:53:15,276 --> 00:53:16,916
Speaker 1: wants to make sense of things. You just kind of

1164
00:53:16,916 --> 00:53:19,196
Speaker 1: get to give them space to kind of come out.

1165
00:53:20,396 --> 00:53:24,876
Speaker 3: All those voices just wanted to be loved and heard.

1166
00:53:24,916 --> 00:53:27,436
Speaker 1: To help, you know, everybody. All the voices want us

1167
00:53:27,436 --> 00:53:27,876
Speaker 1: to be happy.

1168
00:53:27,916 --> 00:53:31,316
Speaker 3: I think another way in which our intuition leads us

1169
00:53:31,356 --> 00:53:35,116
Speaker 3: astray with this idea of happiness is is that it

1170
00:53:35,196 --> 00:53:38,796
Speaker 3: is very much rooted in circumstance. So talk a little

1171
00:53:38,796 --> 00:53:39,316
Speaker 3: bit about that.

1172
00:53:39,836 --> 00:53:42,756
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we assume, you know, if we were

1173
00:53:42,876 --> 00:53:44,996
Speaker 1: putting together a big ingredient list of what we need

1174
00:53:45,036 --> 00:53:48,196
Speaker 1: for happy life, we would assume, maybe, like you know,

1175
00:53:48,276 --> 00:53:50,756
Speaker 1: some genetics, you want some like genes to be happier,

1176
00:53:50,796 --> 00:53:52,996
Speaker 1: but you would also want to have great circumstances. You

1177
00:53:52,996 --> 00:53:55,076
Speaker 1: wouldn't want a life with a lot of conflict, a

1178
00:53:55,076 --> 00:53:58,716
Speaker 1: lot of kind of problems. You'd want life with perfect circumstances.

1179
00:53:58,716 --> 00:54:00,836
Speaker 1: You get into the perfect college. If you're like you

1180
00:54:00,876 --> 00:54:02,956
Speaker 1: know the students I work with, or you have lots

1181
00:54:02,956 --> 00:54:05,636
Speaker 1: of money, or great things happen to you. Everything goes

1182
00:54:05,636 --> 00:54:07,956
Speaker 1: your way, your flight never gets canceled, there's no traffic.

1183
00:54:07,996 --> 00:54:10,676
Speaker 1: You just want the circumstance is to be perfect. But

1184
00:54:10,756 --> 00:54:13,116
Speaker 1: it turns out that circumstances have much less of an

1185
00:54:13,116 --> 00:54:16,476
Speaker 1: effect on our happiness than we think, for a couple reasons. Right. One,

1186
00:54:16,596 --> 00:54:18,916
Speaker 1: when you have good circumstances over and over again, you

1187
00:54:18,956 --> 00:54:21,356
Speaker 1: don't keep noticing that they're good. You just get used

1188
00:54:21,396 --> 00:54:24,076
Speaker 1: to them. The other is, if you have bad circumstances, right,

1189
00:54:24,076 --> 00:54:26,716
Speaker 1: you become paraplegic, you have a horrible accident, Quickly you

1190
00:54:26,716 --> 00:54:28,516
Speaker 1: get used to that bad thing too, and it doesn't

1191
00:54:28,556 --> 00:54:30,916
Speaker 1: continue to affect you as much as you think. And

1192
00:54:30,996 --> 00:54:34,196
Speaker 1: so oftentimes we're much better off not trying to change

1193
00:54:34,236 --> 00:54:38,116
Speaker 1: our circumstances, getting richer, changing where we live, you know,

1194
00:54:38,156 --> 00:54:41,116
Speaker 1: but then changing our behaviors in our mindsets, because those

1195
00:54:41,116 --> 00:54:43,836
Speaker 1: things are going to matter more, right, getting more social connection,

1196
00:54:43,916 --> 00:54:47,116
Speaker 1: getting out and moving your body, stopping that negative self talk,

1197
00:54:47,236 --> 00:54:50,476
Speaker 1: finding the delights, those kinds of things are just intervention wise,

1198
00:54:50,556 --> 00:54:52,516
Speaker 1: going to have a much bigger impact on your happiness

1199
00:54:52,516 --> 00:54:55,196
Speaker 1: than changing your circumstances. It's also the case that changing

1200
00:54:55,236 --> 00:54:58,356
Speaker 1: your circumstances for a lot of circumstances is like hard, right,

1201
00:54:58,436 --> 00:55:00,756
Speaker 1: like you could do it. It often takes it. You know,

1202
00:55:00,916 --> 00:55:03,396
Speaker 1: you can earn more money, but that's like much more

1203
00:55:03,436 --> 00:55:06,916
Speaker 1: of a pain than engaging in a journaling practice every night,

1204
00:55:07,036 --> 00:55:09,316
Speaker 1: or like writing down a few delights every week.

1205
00:55:10,836 --> 00:55:14,916
Speaker 3: It is a difficult thing, though, because if you're somebody

1206
00:55:14,916 --> 00:55:18,716
Speaker 3: who came up from very difficult circumstances, or your life

1207
00:55:18,756 --> 00:55:22,356
Speaker 3: is one in which it's difficult just by dint of

1208
00:55:22,596 --> 00:55:26,476
Speaker 3: you know, where you find yourself, it's hard to claw

1209
00:55:26,516 --> 00:55:28,756
Speaker 3: out of that. It's like you don't want to be

1210
00:55:28,796 --> 00:55:32,036
Speaker 3: dismissive of that. If somebody's like you know, who's unhappy,

1211
00:55:32,156 --> 00:55:34,796
Speaker 3: but they're caught in something they care.

1212
00:55:34,796 --> 00:55:37,556
Speaker 1: Right well, out of the circumstances I'm talking about are

1213
00:55:37,676 --> 00:55:40,516
Speaker 1: not like you are in a refugee situation or you've

1214
00:55:40,516 --> 00:55:43,356
Speaker 1: been putting an El Salvador in prison, although racketed. What

1215
00:55:43,396 --> 00:55:45,636
Speaker 1: we know as people who are in those horrible situations

1216
00:55:45,676 --> 00:55:48,396
Speaker 1: sometimes find a lot of purpose, a lot of social connection,

1217
00:55:48,476 --> 00:55:50,636
Speaker 1: a lot of happiness. Right, But if those are the

1218
00:55:50,636 --> 00:55:53,076
Speaker 1: circumstances that you're listening right now, and you're like, that's

1219
00:55:53,196 --> 00:55:55,636
Speaker 1: the situation I'm in. That's not what I mean. What

1220
00:55:55,676 --> 00:55:57,716
Speaker 1: I mean is for the person who has hood on

1221
00:55:57,756 --> 00:56:00,236
Speaker 1: the table, who has a roof over their head, who's

1222
00:56:00,276 --> 00:56:02,956
Speaker 1: not in a terrible war zone or terrible trauma. I'm

1223
00:56:02,996 --> 00:56:04,636
Speaker 1: talking about the person who's like, Oh, if I could

1224
00:56:04,636 --> 00:56:06,676
Speaker 1: only make ten thousand dollars more a year, I'd be

1225
00:56:06,756 --> 00:56:08,756
Speaker 1: so much happier. I just need to move to a

1226
00:56:08,756 --> 00:56:11,556
Speaker 1: better neighborhood, I need a better phone or car. Those

1227
00:56:11,596 --> 00:56:14,916
Speaker 1: are the circumstantial changes I'm talking about. And the sad

1228
00:56:14,916 --> 00:56:16,836
Speaker 1: thing is like changing those things are just not going

1229
00:56:16,836 --> 00:56:19,196
Speaker 1: to impact your happiness in the way you think. This

1230
00:56:19,276 --> 00:56:21,956
Speaker 1: is similar. We were you talking about money and happiness before,

1231
00:56:21,996 --> 00:56:24,516
Speaker 1: and we say, like, oh, money doesn't buy happiness. That's

1232
00:56:24,516 --> 00:56:26,836
Speaker 1: not entirely true. Money does buy happiness. If you don't

1233
00:56:26,836 --> 00:56:28,876
Speaker 1: have any right, you can't put a move over your head,

1234
00:56:28,916 --> 00:56:30,876
Speaker 1: you don't have food on the table. Yes, getting more

1235
00:56:30,916 --> 00:56:33,716
Speaker 1: money will allow you the basic needs you need to

1236
00:56:34,196 --> 00:56:36,476
Speaker 1: be a little bit happier. It's just that after a

1237
00:56:36,476 --> 00:56:38,836
Speaker 1: certain point, once you get those basic needs, more money

1238
00:56:38,876 --> 00:56:40,116
Speaker 1: doesn't impact your happiness.

1239
00:56:40,156 --> 00:56:44,836
Speaker 3: Like you think, what are the questions that you ask

1240
00:56:45,716 --> 00:56:49,276
Speaker 3: the person who comes to you, Laurie and says, I've

1241
00:56:49,316 --> 00:56:52,316
Speaker 3: done everything right. I checked all the boxes. You know,

1242
00:56:52,396 --> 00:56:56,596
Speaker 3: I went to the schools. You know, I got the job,

1243
00:56:57,196 --> 00:57:00,676
Speaker 3: I worked hard, I you know, got married, I had

1244
00:57:00,676 --> 00:57:03,676
Speaker 3: the two kids, and you know, I've done everything and

1245
00:57:04,636 --> 00:57:07,876
Speaker 3: I succeeded. Like, I kind of have it all, and

1246
00:57:07,916 --> 00:57:12,436
Speaker 3: I'm not necessarily unhappy. But I can't say that I'm

1247
00:57:12,476 --> 00:57:15,516
Speaker 3: happy either. I know that there is a greater happiness

1248
00:57:15,596 --> 00:57:19,196
Speaker 3: available to me. I just don't know what to do

1249
00:57:19,356 --> 00:57:20,076
Speaker 3: or how to get it.

1250
00:57:20,356 --> 00:57:23,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, first I would start by asking questions about

1251
00:57:23,836 --> 00:57:26,916
Speaker 1: their behaviors. You have this perfect job and all this stuff.

1252
00:57:27,156 --> 00:57:28,196
Speaker 1: What's your social connection?

1253
00:57:28,356 --> 00:57:30,916
Speaker 3: Maybe not perfect, but like good reasonable?

1254
00:57:30,996 --> 00:57:32,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's your social connection?

1255
00:57:32,756 --> 00:57:32,836
Speaker 3: Like?

1256
00:57:32,996 --> 00:57:35,996
Speaker 1: Right, are you putting time into the connections that matter?

1257
00:57:36,116 --> 00:57:38,116
Speaker 1: Are you putting time into doing good in the world.

1258
00:57:38,156 --> 00:57:40,156
Speaker 1: One of the things we know is that treating ourselves

1259
00:57:40,196 --> 00:57:42,756
Speaker 1: just doesn't make us as happy as treating other people. Right,

1260
00:57:43,556 --> 00:57:46,076
Speaker 1: I might ask about like simple physical habits. Are you

1261
00:57:46,116 --> 00:57:48,236
Speaker 1: moving your body? Are you getting sleep? Or is all

1262
00:57:48,276 --> 00:57:50,196
Speaker 1: that at the expense of doing this other stuff that

1263
00:57:50,236 --> 00:57:52,556
Speaker 1: you talked about? And then I would ask about kind

1264
00:57:52,596 --> 00:57:54,876
Speaker 1: of how you think about emotions? Right, are you trying

1265
00:57:54,876 --> 00:57:57,716
Speaker 1: to get positive emotion? Right? Do you get positive motions?

1266
00:57:57,756 --> 00:58:00,116
Speaker 1: We don't often think about a sense of wonderous, sense

1267
00:58:00,116 --> 00:58:02,476
Speaker 1: of awe, humor, those kinds of things. And I might

1268
00:58:02,556 --> 00:58:04,996
Speaker 1: even ask like, how are you engaging with your strength?

1269
00:58:05,116 --> 00:58:06,676
Speaker 1: Like what are the things that you find purpose and

1270
00:58:06,676 --> 00:58:09,356
Speaker 1: in value and are you doing that stuff? Right? Really

1271
00:58:09,436 --> 00:58:11,876
Speaker 1: kind of ask in detail about people's thought patterns and

1272
00:58:11,916 --> 00:58:15,236
Speaker 1: their behaviors, because often that's that's the trick, right, that's

1273
00:58:15,236 --> 00:58:17,556
Speaker 1: what people aren't investing in. And I see this even

1274
00:58:17,596 --> 00:58:19,716
Speaker 1: in a get into my Yale students, right, you have

1275
00:58:19,756 --> 00:58:21,436
Speaker 1: every povilege. I think they fall a lot into the

1276
00:58:21,476 --> 00:58:23,796
Speaker 1: category you're talking about, Like I got into the perfect school,

1277
00:58:24,436 --> 00:58:26,676
Speaker 1: you know, young and healthy and all, my future is

1278
00:58:26,676 --> 00:58:29,156
Speaker 1: so bright? Why am I so miserable? And it's often

1279
00:58:29,196 --> 00:58:31,996
Speaker 1: because those are the same students who are mortgaging their

1280
00:58:32,036 --> 00:58:35,156
Speaker 1: social connection, filled with thought patterns of just like such

1281
00:58:35,196 --> 00:58:38,516
Speaker 1: anxiety about the future, not sleeping, right, you know, they're

1282
00:58:38,596 --> 00:58:40,836
Speaker 1: kind of doing the stuff that we know kind of

1283
00:58:40,996 --> 00:58:43,956
Speaker 1: will negatively affect your happiness in the service of trying

1284
00:58:43,956 --> 00:58:45,916
Speaker 1: to go after this stuff that probably won't impact their

1285
00:58:45,916 --> 00:58:47,276
Speaker 1: happiness as much as they think.

1286
00:58:47,516 --> 00:58:51,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in addition to that, for those students

1287
00:58:52,156 --> 00:58:56,436
Speaker 3: or the person who has climbed the mountain, there's a

1288
00:58:56,516 --> 00:59:01,996
Speaker 3: sense of betrayal because they've played the game and followed

1289
00:59:02,036 --> 00:59:05,556
Speaker 3: all the rules, and implicit in the game is this

1290
00:59:05,716 --> 00:59:08,356
Speaker 3: idea that you know, happiness is.

1291
00:59:08,596 --> 00:59:11,236
Speaker 1: The reward, right when you arrive there, you'll be happily

1292
00:59:11,276 --> 00:59:12,556
Speaker 1: of rafter you're supposed to.

1293
00:59:13,036 --> 00:59:17,836
Speaker 3: This is a fantastic lie that has, you know, persevered

1294
00:59:18,156 --> 00:59:21,916
Speaker 3: within this narrative. And I wonder if it's more acute

1295
00:59:22,036 --> 00:59:24,996
Speaker 3: in America because this notion of the American dream and

1296
00:59:25,636 --> 00:59:28,196
Speaker 3: you know, kind of pull yourself up by your bootstraps

1297
00:59:28,236 --> 00:59:31,076
Speaker 3: and you know, these stories back to stories. It's like,

1298
00:59:31,116 --> 00:59:33,596
Speaker 3: this is the story of what it means to live

1299
00:59:33,636 --> 00:59:36,396
Speaker 3: here and how to go from where you are to

1300
00:59:36,596 --> 00:59:37,396
Speaker 3: where you want to be.

1301
00:59:37,716 --> 00:59:40,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the stories I watch in my Yale

1302
00:59:40,076 --> 00:59:43,836
Speaker 1: students is that there's this phenomena on the Internet called

1303
00:59:43,876 --> 00:59:46,116
Speaker 1: admissions videos. So when students are about to find out

1304
00:59:46,156 --> 00:59:47,556
Speaker 1: if they're going to do to college, you know, they've

1305
00:59:47,556 --> 00:59:50,276
Speaker 1: got a camera and TikTok's watching, you know, and they hear,

1306
00:59:50,836 --> 00:59:53,716
Speaker 1: and so in my class, I show students these admission videos.

1307
00:59:53,716 --> 00:59:55,716
Speaker 1: When students find out they get into Yale, which is

1308
00:59:56,076 --> 00:59:57,956
Speaker 1: like a big heradic click on this little website and

1309
00:59:57,956 --> 01:00:00,836
Speaker 1: it plays as Yelle. Seems like it was bulldog Bulldog bow.

1310
01:00:00,956 --> 01:00:03,596
Speaker 1: So as you got into Yale, students scream and they cry,

1311
01:00:03,636 --> 01:00:06,396
Speaker 1: and their parents are in these videos screaming, crying, and

1312
01:00:06,476 --> 01:00:08,836
Speaker 1: the students will watch these videos and have a moment

1313
01:00:08,836 --> 01:00:10,996
Speaker 1: of madness because you're like, I remember that moment, and

1314
01:00:11,036 --> 01:00:14,716
Speaker 1: that moment was a good moment, but like thirty seconds later,

1315
01:00:15,196 --> 01:00:17,436
Speaker 1: I was like, nah, I just have to do the

1316
01:00:17,436 --> 01:00:20,236
Speaker 1: same thing to like get into medical. Like never care.

1317
01:00:20,236 --> 01:00:22,396
Speaker 1: It just moved right, and it's like you didn't even.

1318
01:00:22,276 --> 01:00:24,596
Speaker 3: Pain, uncertainty and the need for constant work.

1319
01:00:24,516 --> 01:00:26,876
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly exactly.

1320
01:00:28,956 --> 01:00:31,996
Speaker 2: You're listening to me and Ritual on the Ritual podcast.

1321
01:00:32,356 --> 01:00:35,076
Speaker 2: We'll have even more fun conversation after the break.

1322
01:00:43,036 --> 01:00:44,836
Speaker 3: So we're kind of dancing around the edges here. But

1323
01:00:44,876 --> 01:00:52,436
Speaker 3: there are well identified, scientifically evidence backed pillars to happiness.

1324
01:00:52,956 --> 01:00:56,916
Speaker 3: There is relationships like connection with other people, like how

1325
01:00:56,996 --> 01:01:00,916
Speaker 3: social are you in your community? And the low hanging

1326
01:01:00,956 --> 01:01:05,036
Speaker 3: fruit like sleep and nutrition and you know, physical exercise

1327
01:01:05,196 --> 01:01:09,796
Speaker 3: and being in nature. These are relatively easy to identify

1328
01:01:09,836 --> 01:01:13,756
Speaker 3: and also easy to fix. But there are other pillars

1329
01:01:13,796 --> 01:01:16,556
Speaker 3: that are a little bit more elusive, like when you

1330
01:01:16,596 --> 01:01:22,116
Speaker 3: talk about purpose and meaning, like these are kind of big,

1331
01:01:22,196 --> 01:01:26,636
Speaker 3: scary words that I think are hard to get our

1332
01:01:26,676 --> 01:01:29,076
Speaker 3: heads around, like what does that mean? Like if I

1333
01:01:29,116 --> 01:01:31,676
Speaker 3: do I have purpose in my life? Is there meaning?

1334
01:01:31,796 --> 01:01:33,836
Speaker 3: Is what I'm doing meaningful? Is it meaningful to me?

1335
01:01:34,276 --> 01:01:38,796
Speaker 3: Is there some you know, greater animating force that's propelling

1336
01:01:38,836 --> 01:01:43,516
Speaker 3: me forward that is of value? Like how to identify that?

1337
01:01:43,796 --> 01:01:47,236
Speaker 3: And if it's missing, how do you fix it? Because

1338
01:01:47,276 --> 01:01:49,396
Speaker 3: I think when you say to somebody like well you

1339
01:01:49,476 --> 01:01:52,076
Speaker 3: just need more purpose or you need meaning, you know,

1340
01:01:52,116 --> 01:01:53,396
Speaker 3: it's like what are you supposed to do with that?

1341
01:01:53,556 --> 01:01:53,636
Speaker 1: Right?

1342
01:01:53,996 --> 01:01:57,356
Speaker 3: You know? I think it's paralyzing and I think it

1343
01:01:57,476 --> 01:02:02,516
Speaker 3: leads to people feeling guilty, if not ashamed.

1344
01:02:02,076 --> 01:02:05,156
Speaker 1: Totally totally. And I think two things there. One is

1345
01:02:05,516 --> 01:02:07,756
Speaker 1: I think when we think about purpose, you know, in

1346
01:02:07,756 --> 01:02:11,756
Speaker 1: our brains, I think we like the capital pee purpose

1347
01:02:11,916 --> 01:02:14,756
Speaker 1: like it's so big. Some of the folks I've talked

1348
01:02:14,756 --> 01:02:17,316
Speaker 1: about my podcast, I've talked about small P purpose like

1349
01:02:17,396 --> 01:02:19,876
Speaker 1: you know, little lowercase P. And I think when you

1350
01:02:19,876 --> 01:02:21,956
Speaker 1: think about it like that, you say, oh, it's like

1351
01:02:22,476 --> 01:02:24,516
Speaker 1: the conversation I have with the brist at the coffee shop,

1352
01:02:24,596 --> 01:02:26,356
Speaker 1: or it's that I help my nephew with his homework,

1353
01:02:26,476 --> 01:02:28,716
Speaker 1: or it's that I really care about this hobby that

1354
01:02:28,756 --> 01:02:30,596
Speaker 1: I engage and I find it fun. I like I

1355
01:02:30,676 --> 01:02:32,396
Speaker 1: like moving up right, Like I get a sense of

1356
01:02:32,396 --> 01:02:35,996
Speaker 1: purpose for like running marathons, whatever it is, right if

1357
01:02:36,036 --> 01:02:37,916
Speaker 1: you're not thinking like you have to, like you know,

1358
01:02:38,036 --> 01:02:41,236
Speaker 1: becomes deep jobs or solve cancer or whatever. Like when

1359
01:02:41,276 --> 01:02:43,276
Speaker 1: you realize it's like, oh, that's the thing that just

1360
01:02:43,396 --> 01:02:45,876
Speaker 1: kind of I feel better about myself when I'm doing

1361
01:02:45,876 --> 01:02:48,996
Speaker 1: that thing. I feel more authentically myself when I'm doing that.

1362
01:02:48,996 --> 01:02:50,996
Speaker 1: That's the kind of little pea purpose, And I think

1363
01:02:50,996 --> 01:02:53,356
Speaker 1: you just want to build more of that in. I

1364
01:02:53,356 --> 01:02:55,556
Speaker 1: also use a technique with my students that get them

1365
01:02:55,556 --> 01:02:58,396
Speaker 1: to think about the kind of more in an abstract way,

1366
01:02:58,436 --> 01:03:00,596
Speaker 1: what some of those things are. The little pea purpose

1367
01:03:00,636 --> 01:03:02,796
Speaker 1: exercises trying to figure out what are you already doing

1368
01:03:02,876 --> 01:03:05,796
Speaker 1: that does that. But a different exercise you can use

1369
01:03:05,876 --> 01:03:08,156
Speaker 1: is to try to figure out what researchers call your

1370
01:03:08,196 --> 01:03:11,956
Speaker 1: signature strength. Right. Researchers like Chris Peterson and Marty Segment

1371
01:03:11,996 --> 01:03:14,396
Speaker 1: have done this work where they've kind of gone cross

1372
01:03:14,396 --> 01:03:16,516
Speaker 1: culturally and tried to figure out, like what are the strengths,

1373
01:03:16,556 --> 01:03:18,636
Speaker 1: what are the values that different people can have, like

1374
01:03:18,676 --> 01:03:20,476
Speaker 1: the good traits that you can have in the world.

1375
01:03:20,716 --> 01:03:22,436
Speaker 1: And they've come up with a list of twenty four

1376
01:03:22,476 --> 01:03:24,556
Speaker 1: of these things they call character strengths. There are things

1377
01:03:24,596 --> 01:03:27,676
Speaker 1: like bravery and love of learning, a zest for life,

1378
01:03:27,796 --> 01:03:32,796
Speaker 1: curiosity right like helping people, social intelligence and stuff. And

1379
01:03:32,836 --> 01:03:35,036
Speaker 1: what they find is that all of these are good,

1380
01:03:35,156 --> 01:03:37,756
Speaker 1: Like all those things I just listed are great, but

1381
01:03:37,916 --> 01:03:40,996
Speaker 1: some of them you resonate with more than others. And

1382
01:03:40,996 --> 01:03:43,756
Speaker 1: you can actually go online if you google character strengths

1383
01:03:43,796 --> 01:03:46,356
Speaker 1: as a website called the Values in Action Character Strengths

1384
01:03:46,356 --> 01:03:49,076
Speaker 1: where you can take a psychometric quiz and look at this.

1385
01:03:49,156 --> 01:03:50,596
Speaker 1: You can just look at the big list of these

1386
01:03:50,876 --> 01:03:52,516
Speaker 1: I find. Just looking at them, you go through you like,

1387
01:03:52,516 --> 01:03:54,796
Speaker 1: oh yeah, bravery is good, but oh humor that's me

1388
01:03:54,956 --> 01:03:57,116
Speaker 1: or love of learning that's me or whatever it is.

1389
01:03:57,836 --> 01:04:00,476
Speaker 1: Those was the idea would be or your signature strengths.

1390
01:04:00,676 --> 01:04:02,956
Speaker 1: And what research by Segment and as colleagues has found

1391
01:04:02,996 --> 01:04:05,796
Speaker 1: is that the more you use your signature strength and

1392
01:04:05,876 --> 01:04:09,516
Speaker 1: your daily life, the happier you feel, the more you

1393
01:04:09,596 --> 01:04:11,996
Speaker 1: have like, the more like you love whatever you're doing

1394
01:04:12,516 --> 01:04:15,036
Speaker 1: in your workplace. For example, if you use your signature strengths,

1395
01:04:15,036 --> 01:04:17,196
Speaker 1: you can turn whatever job you have into a calling.

1396
01:04:17,796 --> 01:04:19,356
Speaker 1: And the reason I like the work on the signature

1397
01:04:19,396 --> 01:04:22,036
Speaker 1: strengths is that some of that's been not in jobs

1398
01:04:22,436 --> 01:04:24,436
Speaker 1: like our job. You know, we have this wonderful podcaster

1399
01:04:24,636 --> 01:04:27,076
Speaker 1: job or professor where I could build in all these things. Right,

1400
01:04:27,516 --> 01:04:29,876
Speaker 1: A lot of the most creative work on signature strengths

1401
01:04:29,996 --> 01:04:32,796
Speaker 1: is done in domains where folks have jobs that are

1402
01:04:32,836 --> 01:04:36,036
Speaker 1: like very constrained. This woman, Amy Rezinski Us at the

1403
01:04:36,116 --> 01:04:41,396
Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania, looks at strengths in hospital janitorial staff workers.

1404
01:04:41,836 --> 01:04:43,636
Speaker 1: So these are people who are like, you know, washing

1405
01:04:43,636 --> 01:04:45,676
Speaker 1: the linen for people who are sick, or you know,

1406
01:04:45,756 --> 01:04:47,676
Speaker 1: mopping the floor is like you don't think they could

1407
01:04:47,676 --> 01:04:51,156
Speaker 1: bring in like bravery or a curiosity or prudence or

1408
01:04:51,196 --> 01:04:53,596
Speaker 1: whatever it is, right, But what she finds is that

1409
01:04:53,636 --> 01:04:56,236
Speaker 1: between like a quarter to a third of janitorial staff

1410
01:04:56,276 --> 01:04:58,836
Speaker 1: workers say they love their job. They're you know, they

1411
01:04:58,876 --> 01:05:00,836
Speaker 1: have to work for you to earn an income, but

1412
01:05:00,876 --> 01:05:02,356
Speaker 1: they would like they would do it even if they

1413
01:05:02,436 --> 01:05:04,676
Speaker 1: hit the lottery because they love what they do. And

1414
01:05:04,716 --> 01:05:08,116
Speaker 1: those are the ones who are naturally infusing their strengths

1415
01:05:08,156 --> 01:05:10,796
Speaker 1: into their job. She tells them my podcast, she told

1416
01:05:10,836 --> 01:05:13,356
Speaker 1: these lovely stories. She had a story of a janitorial

1417
01:05:13,396 --> 01:05:16,796
Speaker 1: staff worker who worked in a chemotherapy ward. And so

1418
01:05:16,996 --> 01:05:20,076
Speaker 1: if you're listening right now and you had kenotherapy or

1419
01:05:20,076 --> 01:05:21,636
Speaker 1: know someone who does, you know people get sick, right.

1420
01:05:21,676 --> 01:05:23,276
Speaker 1: So a bad thing about this treatment is people tend

1421
01:05:23,316 --> 01:05:25,436
Speaker 1: to vomit. So a lot of this dude's job was

1422
01:05:25,476 --> 01:05:27,716
Speaker 1: cleaning up vomit. But he said, that's not my job.

1423
01:05:27,796 --> 01:05:30,836
Speaker 1: My job is, like my strengths are humor and social intelligence.

1424
01:05:30,876 --> 01:05:32,716
Speaker 1: My job is to make that person laugh. The person's

1425
01:05:32,716 --> 01:05:34,716
Speaker 1: having a crummy day, and I see it as my

1426
01:05:34,836 --> 01:05:36,996
Speaker 1: duty to like make them laugh before I walk out

1427
01:05:37,036 --> 01:05:38,236
Speaker 1: of there. And he had, I guess he had like

1428
01:05:38,236 --> 01:05:40,316
Speaker 1: a standard joke where he said, like, oh, there's a

1429
01:05:40,316 --> 01:05:43,076
Speaker 1: lot of vomits over time today, like keep it coming,

1430
01:05:43,196 --> 01:05:45,236
Speaker 1: you know, the you know, stupid joke. But the person

1431
01:05:45,236 --> 01:05:47,716
Speaker 1: would lie and he's like, that's that's my job, right.

1432
01:05:47,756 --> 01:05:50,796
Speaker 1: She talked about another janitorial staff worker who worked in

1433
01:05:50,916 --> 01:05:53,516
Speaker 1: a coma award. So this was a staff work who

1434
01:05:53,516 --> 01:05:55,396
Speaker 1: couldn't it and interact with the patients because the patients

1435
01:05:55,396 --> 01:05:58,196
Speaker 1: were all in a coma and unconscious, but every day

1436
01:05:58,236 --> 01:06:00,596
Speaker 1: she would like walk around and move, move the artwork

1437
01:06:00,636 --> 01:06:03,556
Speaker 1: in the room. Her strength was creativity, right, Like I

1438
01:06:03,556 --> 01:06:05,676
Speaker 1: guess she thought like maybe the patients will notice or

1439
01:06:05,716 --> 01:06:08,636
Speaker 1: wake up. Probably not medically accurate, but he gave her

1440
01:06:08,636 --> 01:06:11,356
Speaker 1: some purpose going to work. These are the ways we

1441
01:06:11,396 --> 01:06:13,956
Speaker 1: can infuse purpose into our work. And I love the

1442
01:06:14,116 --> 01:06:17,396
Speaker 1: janitor work because again, not all of us have jobs

1443
01:06:17,436 --> 01:06:19,436
Speaker 1: where we can, you know, switch things around and do

1444
01:06:19,476 --> 01:06:22,796
Speaker 1: some intellectual switch, right, But like everybody has a job

1445
01:06:22,836 --> 01:06:24,796
Speaker 1: where you can bring some of these things in a

1446
01:06:24,836 --> 01:06:26,756
Speaker 1: little bit, right, And if you can't do it at work,

1447
01:06:26,796 --> 01:06:29,316
Speaker 1: bring it in in your leisure and stuff. So if

1448
01:06:29,356 --> 01:06:32,036
Speaker 1: you're not sure what those are, I think google character strengths,

1449
01:06:32,316 --> 01:06:33,796
Speaker 1: just look at the big list, or take one of

1450
01:06:33,836 --> 01:06:36,356
Speaker 1: these formal tests, or just kind of have a sense

1451
01:06:36,356 --> 01:06:39,116
Speaker 1: of like, you know these when I feel most authentically myself,

1452
01:06:39,156 --> 01:06:41,516
Speaker 1: what am I engaging in, and just try to do

1453
01:06:41,596 --> 01:06:42,036
Speaker 1: more of that.

1454
01:06:42,236 --> 01:06:46,556
Speaker 3: There's something wonderfully counterintuitive about that, though, because I would

1455
01:06:46,556 --> 01:06:52,116
Speaker 3: have thought that that inventory would be an attempt to

1456
01:06:52,356 --> 01:06:56,036
Speaker 3: identify the things that bring you joy or remembering when

1457
01:06:56,076 --> 01:06:58,756
Speaker 3: the last time you know, you felt like really happy.

1458
01:06:58,796 --> 01:07:01,596
Speaker 3: What were you doing to like set it in a

1459
01:07:01,676 --> 01:07:06,916
Speaker 3: context of strengths as opposed to activities where you really

1460
01:07:06,956 --> 01:07:09,756
Speaker 3: feel yourself. I mean you mentioned authenticity, so that's part

1461
01:07:09,796 --> 01:07:13,196
Speaker 3: of this, But why isn't it my version of that? Yeah, Like,

1462
01:07:13,196 --> 01:07:17,876
Speaker 3: why is it strengths versus like activities that make me

1463
01:07:17,916 --> 01:07:18,516
Speaker 3: feel happy?

1464
01:07:18,876 --> 01:07:21,236
Speaker 1: I think I think ultimately they're one and the same

1465
01:07:21,316 --> 01:07:23,276
Speaker 1: for you. It's just that the ones that might work

1466
01:07:23,316 --> 01:07:25,676
Speaker 1: most for you might not be the ones that work

1467
01:07:25,716 --> 01:07:27,876
Speaker 1: for somebody else. Right, Like there's people that, like, you know,

1468
01:07:27,916 --> 01:07:29,356
Speaker 1: their signature strength is humor.

1469
01:07:29,476 --> 01:07:33,356
Speaker 3: Right, I love working on my weaknesses. Yeah, your strength.

1470
01:07:33,036 --> 01:07:35,956
Speaker 1: Is that that that could.

1471
01:07:35,676 --> 01:07:37,756
Speaker 3: Be that could be something right who those people are.

1472
01:07:37,796 --> 01:07:40,516
Speaker 1: But there are strengths that are bravery, for example, which

1473
01:07:40,516 --> 01:07:42,436
Speaker 1: I think depending on how you think of those weaknesses,

1474
01:07:42,476 --> 01:07:44,116
Speaker 1: it could be part of that. There are strengths that

1475
01:07:44,156 --> 01:07:46,956
Speaker 1: are self regulation, right that, like what I'm going to

1476
01:07:47,036 --> 01:07:49,196
Speaker 1: do is really try hard to kind of regulate my

1477
01:07:49,276 --> 01:07:51,956
Speaker 1: deepest emotions, strengths of things like prudence, right where it's

1478
01:07:51,996 --> 01:07:54,876
Speaker 1: like I want to just very carefully work on these things. Right.

1479
01:07:54,916 --> 01:07:57,156
Speaker 1: So the set of strengths when you look at the

1480
01:07:57,156 --> 01:08:00,196
Speaker 1: big list is pretty broad and a lot of times

1481
01:08:00,036 --> 01:08:02,036
Speaker 1: that the thing that feels most authentic to you. When

1482
01:08:02,076 --> 01:08:03,596
Speaker 1: you look at the list, you'll be like, oh, that's

1483
01:08:03,636 --> 01:08:06,196
Speaker 1: kind of on there for me. You have artists who

1484
01:08:06,276 --> 01:08:08,756
Speaker 1: have strengths of things like appreciation of beauty or zest

1485
01:08:08,836 --> 01:08:11,396
Speaker 1: for life. A lot of folks who have strengthen that

1486
01:08:11,396 --> 01:08:14,876
Speaker 1: are related to social intelligence like kindness or forgiveness or

1487
01:08:15,756 --> 01:08:19,436
Speaker 1: or social intelligence kind of empathy and understanding people. When

1488
01:08:19,476 --> 01:08:21,596
Speaker 1: you look at the big list, usually folks have some

1489
01:08:21,676 --> 01:08:25,596
Speaker 1: that fit with that. And often if you're using those things,

1490
01:08:25,596 --> 01:08:26,956
Speaker 1: it can be can be powerful.

1491
01:08:27,436 --> 01:08:30,956
Speaker 3: How do you parse the difference between purpose and meaning?

1492
01:08:31,156 --> 01:08:36,556
Speaker 3: Is it that meaning? Is this emergent property of finding

1493
01:08:36,596 --> 01:08:40,236
Speaker 3: some purpose, even if it's a small p purpose by

1494
01:08:40,276 --> 01:08:41,596
Speaker 3: investing in your strengths.

1495
01:08:42,076 --> 01:08:44,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, these definitions always make it complicated.

1496
01:08:44,436 --> 01:08:46,916
Speaker 3: It becomes like a mind vendor. And just like I

1497
01:08:46,916 --> 01:08:49,196
Speaker 3: think meaning all these words are like the same, but

1498
01:08:49,196 --> 01:08:51,516
Speaker 3: they're not the same and are like does one come

1499
01:08:51,516 --> 01:08:54,276
Speaker 3: from the other? Like you know, I still, after like

1500
01:08:54,316 --> 01:08:57,476
Speaker 3: having a million conversations about this, I still don't. I'm

1501
01:08:57,476 --> 01:08:59,396
Speaker 3: still not sure I really get it.

1502
01:08:59,436 --> 01:09:01,196
Speaker 1: The way I think about it. And again, I think

1503
01:09:01,276 --> 01:09:03,556
Speaker 1: we all we use many of these turns interchangeably, and

1504
01:09:03,556 --> 01:09:06,356
Speaker 1: it gets so much more complicated when we look cross culturally.

1505
01:09:07,116 --> 01:09:09,876
Speaker 1: There's a set of researchers at Harvard who are doing

1506
01:09:09,876 --> 01:09:13,716
Speaker 1: a project or trying to catalog emotional words that exist

1507
01:09:13,796 --> 01:09:16,316
Speaker 1: in one language or one culture, but that don't translate

1508
01:09:16,356 --> 01:09:20,196
Speaker 1: to other languages and cultures. And it's a really fascinating

1509
01:09:20,236 --> 01:09:23,276
Speaker 1: list to go through because me is a monolingual English

1510
01:09:23,276 --> 01:09:25,756
Speaker 1: speaking American. Just see all these words of like wait,

1511
01:09:25,796 --> 01:09:27,516
Speaker 1: I kind of know that emotion, but I never had

1512
01:09:27,556 --> 01:09:29,476
Speaker 1: a word for it. One of my favorite ones maybe

1513
01:09:29,716 --> 01:09:32,116
Speaker 1: might not translate as well in LA. It translates a

1514
01:09:32,156 --> 01:09:34,476
Speaker 1: lot on the East Coast where I live in the Northeast,

1515
01:09:34,916 --> 01:09:36,796
Speaker 1: is the feeling that you get on the first spring

1516
01:09:36,876 --> 01:09:38,636
Speaker 1: day where you can say outside and have a beer

1517
01:09:38,836 --> 01:09:41,436
Speaker 1: and like the outdoors. That emotion. I'm like, oh man,

1518
01:09:41,476 --> 01:09:42,876
Speaker 1: I know that might have don't have a word for yah.

1519
01:09:43,036 --> 01:09:45,596
Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I'm from the East Coast. I lived

1520
01:09:45,636 --> 01:09:46,196
Speaker 3: in Ithaca.

1521
01:09:46,996 --> 01:09:48,596
Speaker 1: Because are the point, you know, if you look in

1522
01:09:48,756 --> 01:09:51,676
Speaker 1: Asian cultures, you have lots of different words that are

1523
01:09:51,716 --> 01:09:54,556
Speaker 1: hard to translate for an American that mean different aspects

1524
01:09:54,596 --> 01:09:58,236
Speaker 1: of contemplation or peacefulness or kind of attention to what's

1525
01:09:58,276 --> 01:10:01,076
Speaker 1: going on in the world acceptance, right. So point is

1526
01:10:01,276 --> 01:10:04,276
Speaker 1: it's hard cross culturally, it's hard even for these terms

1527
01:10:04,276 --> 01:10:06,236
Speaker 1: that we all use in English together. I think of

1528
01:10:06,356 --> 01:10:09,036
Speaker 1: meaning as that experience. I get a sense of me

1529
01:10:09,676 --> 01:10:11,956
Speaker 1: from engaging in the purpose, which is kind of the

1530
01:10:11,996 --> 01:10:13,876
Speaker 1: activity or the kind of thing you're doing.

1531
01:10:14,036 --> 01:10:17,556
Speaker 3: It matters less how you define those things than the

1532
01:10:17,636 --> 01:10:20,276
Speaker 3: actions that you're taking. Like you're very action based, You're like,

1533
01:10:20,316 --> 01:10:22,236
Speaker 3: here are these things that you should do. Get into

1534
01:10:22,316 --> 01:10:26,916
Speaker 3: action journaling, identify your strengths, like all of these you know,

1535
01:10:26,956 --> 01:10:31,156
Speaker 3: sort of snackable you know what do you call them again, rewirables? Right,

1536
01:10:31,716 --> 01:10:36,156
Speaker 3: that are there to counter program all the intuitions and

1537
01:10:36,196 --> 01:10:39,156
Speaker 3: instincts that lead us astray when we're on autopilot.

1538
01:10:39,316 --> 01:10:40,676
Speaker 1: And I think this is the thing I didn't say

1539
01:10:40,716 --> 01:10:42,196
Speaker 1: that I would say to the person who's like, I

1540
01:10:42,236 --> 01:10:43,916
Speaker 1: feel like I'm doing everything right or I feel like

1541
01:10:43,956 --> 01:10:46,436
Speaker 1: I'm really struggling. I have this rumination. I think that

1542
01:10:46,596 --> 01:10:48,996
Speaker 1: the thing that really gives me hope about all this

1543
01:10:48,996 --> 01:10:53,116
Speaker 1: stuff is like there's like hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands,

1544
01:10:53,116 --> 01:10:56,156
Speaker 1: of studies on these things, these little snackable activities or

1545
01:10:56,156 --> 01:10:59,356
Speaker 1: mindset shifts. They all work. They all work in a

1546
01:10:59,356 --> 01:10:59,956
Speaker 1: striking way.

1547
01:11:00,036 --> 01:11:00,156
Speaker 3: Right.

1548
01:11:00,196 --> 01:11:02,236
Speaker 1: They don't take your happiness from zero to one hundred,

1549
01:11:02,556 --> 01:11:06,356
Speaker 1: but they give small, reliable, significant increases in your happiness.

1550
01:11:06,916 --> 01:11:09,196
Speaker 1: I know you Dan Harris on the show recently, he

1551
01:11:09,236 --> 01:11:12,116
Speaker 1: talks about ten percent happier, And that's a great name

1552
01:11:12,156 --> 01:11:15,036
Speaker 1: for a podcast and a title for anything, because that's

1553
01:11:15,116 --> 01:11:16,676
Speaker 1: kind of the range that you're going up and all

1554
01:11:16,716 --> 01:11:19,436
Speaker 1: these little meaningful changes. I'm suggesting you get a little

1555
01:11:19,436 --> 01:11:21,996
Speaker 1: social connection, You'll go from a seven on a ten

1556
01:11:22,036 --> 01:11:24,516
Speaker 1: point happiness scale to eight. You know, you get to

1557
01:11:24,556 --> 01:11:26,956
Speaker 1: get in some exercise in a half hour of cardio

1558
01:11:26,956 --> 01:11:29,836
Speaker 1: every day, like, you'll move from a six to a seven. Right. Like,

1559
01:11:29,876 --> 01:11:33,116
Speaker 1: that's about the magnitude of increase. But that increase is

1560
01:11:33,156 --> 01:11:35,436
Speaker 1: available for all the different things we've talked about. Right,

1561
01:11:35,516 --> 01:11:37,836
Speaker 1: So you can have your little a la carte snacklist

1562
01:11:37,836 --> 01:11:40,716
Speaker 1: of different strategies you use to feel happier, and if

1563
01:11:40,756 --> 01:11:42,596
Speaker 1: you can manage to turn them into habits, to put

1564
01:11:42,596 --> 01:11:45,276
Speaker 1: them into effect, you'll wind up reaping the benefits.

1565
01:11:45,756 --> 01:11:53,356
Speaker 3: Another important pillar here is contribution to others service, basically,

1566
01:11:54,516 --> 01:11:58,236
Speaker 3: which as a twelve step person I know well and

1567
01:11:58,356 --> 01:12:01,316
Speaker 3: had to learn the hard way that this is the

1568
01:12:01,356 --> 01:12:05,996
Speaker 3: most reliable and truest antidote to self obsession. And I

1569
01:12:05,996 --> 01:12:09,236
Speaker 3: think self obsession is sort of at the root of

1570
01:12:09,396 --> 01:12:13,436
Speaker 3: a lot of unhappiness out there. We're just constantly thinking

1571
01:12:13,476 --> 01:12:18,516
Speaker 3: about ourselves all day long, whether positively or negatively. And

1572
01:12:18,796 --> 01:12:22,716
Speaker 3: if we can get out of that and invest ourselves

1573
01:12:22,756 --> 01:12:24,156
Speaker 3: in somebody else, I mean, this is a big part

1574
01:12:24,156 --> 01:12:26,596
Speaker 3: of the community piece too, like be with other people.

1575
01:12:26,796 --> 01:12:29,596
Speaker 3: Like you know, you have to get out of your

1576
01:12:29,596 --> 01:12:33,636
Speaker 3: own like narrative and immerse yourself in the world. But

1577
01:12:33,716 --> 01:12:38,036
Speaker 3: when you invest yourself in somebody else's welfare, even in

1578
01:12:38,116 --> 01:12:43,196
Speaker 3: the smallest way, it's incredible how that can shift your mood,

1579
01:12:43,796 --> 01:12:45,516
Speaker 3: your energy, and your perspective.

1580
01:12:45,916 --> 01:12:48,876
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think this is something that culture gets wrong.

1581
01:12:48,916 --> 01:12:51,476
Speaker 1: We talked about culture getting manifesting wrong. I think that's

1582
01:12:51,596 --> 01:12:53,716
Speaker 1: number one thing we get wrong on TikTok. But number

1583
01:12:53,756 --> 01:12:55,996
Speaker 1: two things we get wrong about happiness on TikTok is this.

1584
01:12:56,316 --> 01:12:58,716
Speaker 1: If you look anywhere on TikTok itself about self care,

1585
01:12:58,876 --> 01:13:01,716
Speaker 1: treat yourself self self self Like you look at the

1586
01:13:01,716 --> 01:13:03,996
Speaker 1: studies of happy people, and happy people are not focused

1587
01:13:04,036 --> 01:13:06,836
Speaker 1: on themselves. Happy people are very other oriented. They're doing

1588
01:13:06,956 --> 01:13:10,116
Speaker 1: nice stuff for other people, right, control for income, happier

1589
01:13:10,116 --> 01:13:12,516
Speaker 1: people tend to donate more money to charity than not

1590
01:13:12,556 --> 01:13:15,396
Speaker 1: so happy people. Right. It's just these like subtle correlations

1591
01:13:15,396 --> 01:13:18,796
Speaker 1: between doing nice stuff for others and feeling better. But

1592
01:13:18,836 --> 01:13:20,556
Speaker 1: then you have all these experiments where you kind of

1593
01:13:20,636 --> 01:13:23,916
Speaker 1: force participants to do nice stuff for other people. One

1594
01:13:23,956 --> 01:13:26,236
Speaker 1: of my favorites by Elizabeth Dunn and her colleagues where

1595
01:13:26,236 --> 01:13:27,796
Speaker 1: they walk up to folks on the street, hand them

1596
01:13:27,796 --> 01:13:30,716
Speaker 1: twenty bucks and say, either, hey, spend this twenty bucks

1597
01:13:30,716 --> 01:13:33,196
Speaker 1: to do something nice to treat yourself, right, or hey,

1598
01:13:33,276 --> 01:13:35,756
Speaker 1: spend this twenty bucks to do something nice for somebody else.

1599
01:13:35,796 --> 01:13:37,516
Speaker 1: You could donate it to a homeless shelter, you could

1600
01:13:37,516 --> 01:13:39,676
Speaker 1: buy a friend, you know, something nice like that has

1601
01:13:39,716 --> 01:13:42,036
Speaker 1: to go to someone else. When they call people at

1602
01:13:42,036 --> 01:13:43,316
Speaker 1: the end of the day or even at the end

1603
01:13:43,316 --> 01:13:45,316
Speaker 1: of the week, they find that people are happier when

1604
01:13:45,316 --> 01:13:47,836
Speaker 1: they treated someone else rather than when they treated themselves.

1605
01:13:47,916 --> 01:13:50,436
Speaker 3: Right. In giving that money to that other person, if

1606
01:13:50,476 --> 01:13:53,236
Speaker 3: you qualify it, it then becomes a burden for them,

1607
01:13:53,556 --> 01:13:56,596
Speaker 3: as opposed to an enriching experience where you felt like, oh,

1608
01:13:56,596 --> 01:13:58,756
Speaker 3: I like, you know, I did something nice for somebody.

1609
01:13:58,916 --> 01:14:01,636
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is a spot where even in my

1610
01:14:01,716 --> 01:14:04,516
Speaker 1: own life, if I'm not careful with it, like there's

1611
01:14:04,556 --> 01:14:07,196
Speaker 1: just like a terrible opportunity cost because like all the

1612
01:14:07,236 --> 01:14:09,756
Speaker 1: money you spend on yourself to feel better, you know,

1613
01:14:09,796 --> 01:14:12,956
Speaker 1: buying yourself a massage, or buying yourself that new gadget,

1614
01:14:13,036 --> 01:14:16,156
Speaker 1: or buying your treating yourself to a nice class, well,

1615
01:14:16,196 --> 01:14:17,956
Speaker 1: it's just the same money that you could have spent

1616
01:14:18,076 --> 01:14:20,636
Speaker 1: on someone else. Often joke that every time my brain

1617
01:14:20,716 --> 01:14:22,436
Speaker 1: is like I'm going to get a manicure, I'm going

1618
01:14:22,476 --> 01:14:24,036
Speaker 1: to do something nice for myself, I'm like, wait, can

1619
01:14:24,076 --> 01:14:27,196
Speaker 1: I give my sister in law manicure? Can I buy

1620
01:14:27,236 --> 01:14:30,316
Speaker 1: that massage for like someone in my workplace? Like it

1621
01:14:30,596 --> 01:14:32,596
Speaker 1: genuinely is one of these things that even violates my

1622
01:14:32,636 --> 01:14:34,596
Speaker 1: intuition's even saying. And now I'm like, dude, I would

1623
01:14:34,636 --> 01:14:36,956
Speaker 1: like the massage better than my sister in law or whatever.

1624
01:14:37,276 --> 01:14:42,316
Speaker 3: But you're cultivating abundance, an abundance content, right instead of lack,

1625
01:14:42,556 --> 01:14:44,796
Speaker 3: Like you you have to hoard it because you're afraid

1626
01:14:44,796 --> 01:14:46,556
Speaker 3: it'll run out or you'll run out.

1627
01:14:46,836 --> 01:14:49,236
Speaker 1: And the benefits is like when you do nice things

1628
01:14:49,236 --> 01:14:51,476
Speaker 1: for other people, like what you get back in the

1629
01:14:51,596 --> 01:14:55,716
Speaker 1: social connection is huge, right. My my producer and co

1630
01:14:55,756 --> 01:14:58,116
Speaker 1: writer form my podcast, Ryan Dilley tells the story of

1631
01:14:58,476 --> 01:15:00,276
Speaker 1: he was walking into a coffee shop and someone was

1632
01:15:00,316 --> 01:15:02,356
Speaker 1: walking out with this cookie they were very excited about

1633
01:15:02,356 --> 01:15:04,276
Speaker 1: and then dropped it like on the threshold of the

1634
01:15:04,276 --> 01:15:06,396
Speaker 1: doors they were walking out. It seems sad, and he

1635
01:15:06,476 --> 01:15:08,276
Speaker 1: ran into the coffee shop and brought this person a

1636
01:15:08,276 --> 01:15:10,596
Speaker 1: cookie and like gave them the cookie and like prison

1637
01:15:10,676 --> 01:15:13,596
Speaker 1: was really happy. And he's like, months later, I'm still

1638
01:15:13,636 --> 01:15:15,876
Speaker 1: telling that story, Like I don't ever tell the story.

1639
01:15:15,876 --> 01:15:17,276
Speaker 1: At the time I walked through the coffee shop, I

1640
01:15:17,356 --> 01:15:19,156
Speaker 1: just got myself the cookie. Like now it's you know,

1641
01:15:19,236 --> 01:15:21,196
Speaker 1: millions of people and your show or hearing it, right,

1642
01:15:21,236 --> 01:15:23,996
Speaker 1: And so these moments of good deeds that we do

1643
01:15:24,076 --> 01:15:27,356
Speaker 1: for others, they percolate. They percolate in our own memory,

1644
01:15:27,396 --> 01:15:30,396
Speaker 1: they percolate in our social conversations. Even you know, just

1645
01:15:30,436 --> 01:15:32,716
Speaker 1: hearing Brian's story, probably all your people have this little

1646
01:15:32,716 --> 01:15:35,636
Speaker 1: boost and happiness that we get, and so we forget

1647
01:15:35,636 --> 01:15:37,956
Speaker 1: that our actions and our things we do to feel

1648
01:15:37,956 --> 01:15:40,636
Speaker 1: happy at the moment, some of them live on better

1649
01:15:40,676 --> 01:15:42,716
Speaker 1: than others. And the things we do for other people

1650
01:15:42,836 --> 01:15:44,956
Speaker 1: live on in special ways, is.

1651
01:15:44,876 --> 01:15:51,076
Speaker 3: There any science to establish. I want to call it

1652
01:15:51,116 --> 01:15:53,956
Speaker 3: a placebo effect, but it's not quite that. What I'm

1653
01:15:53,996 --> 01:15:57,596
Speaker 3: getting at is the intention behind it, Like does it

1654
01:15:57,716 --> 01:16:02,356
Speaker 3: matter if you give of yourself from a place of

1655
01:16:02,636 --> 01:16:07,636
Speaker 3: you know, open heartedness and generosity, or you're doing it

1656
01:16:07,716 --> 01:16:12,956
Speaker 3: selfishly because Lrie Santo's I do this it makes me happy.

1657
01:16:12,996 --> 01:16:16,956
Speaker 3: And I know just based on my anecdotal personal experience

1658
01:16:17,036 --> 01:16:21,556
Speaker 3: that it actually doesn't matter, Like if I just even

1659
01:16:21,556 --> 01:16:24,036
Speaker 3: if I don't want to do the thing, like I

1660
01:16:24,116 --> 01:16:26,996
Speaker 3: know that it will make me happier, and so to

1661
01:16:27,116 --> 01:16:33,356
Speaker 3: be selfless from a selfish perspective, Yeah, it still ends

1662
01:16:33,436 --> 01:16:35,556
Speaker 3: up creating a shift.

1663
01:16:35,676 --> 01:16:37,876
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's true for all the like

1664
01:16:38,716 --> 01:16:41,036
Speaker 1: we get the benefit from the behavior in a lot

1665
01:16:41,036 --> 01:16:43,236
Speaker 1: of the cases. I think that again, with all these things,

1666
01:16:43,236 --> 01:16:45,076
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of nuance. Lara Actin has this

1667
01:16:45,116 --> 01:16:47,716
Speaker 1: work that if you feel forced to do nice things

1668
01:16:47,716 --> 01:16:49,716
Speaker 1: for others, like you don't have any choice, you don't

1669
01:16:49,756 --> 01:16:51,556
Speaker 1: have any agency in it, that can be not good.

1670
01:16:51,556 --> 01:16:52,956
Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons we see things like

1671
01:16:52,996 --> 01:16:55,196
Speaker 1: caregiver burnout and so on, Like you have no choice,

1672
01:16:55,196 --> 01:16:58,116
Speaker 1: you have to be doing these nice things. That's not great.

1673
01:16:58,436 --> 01:16:59,956
Speaker 1: But if you come at it from like, all right,

1674
01:16:59,996 --> 01:17:02,796
Speaker 1: I don't really cortting this page, I'll try it. It

1675
01:17:02,876 --> 01:17:04,716
Speaker 1: kind of works. And that's like, that's true in all

1676
01:17:04,756 --> 01:17:08,276
Speaker 1: these domains, you know, Like I respect so many people

1677
01:17:08,316 --> 01:17:11,196
Speaker 1: that get the like the wonderful emotional hit that have

1678
01:17:11,276 --> 01:17:13,076
Speaker 1: the like craving for working out.

1679
01:17:13,116 --> 01:17:13,916
Speaker 3: I never have that.

1680
01:17:13,956 --> 01:17:16,276
Speaker 1: It's always this log for me. I hoped that doing

1681
01:17:16,276 --> 01:17:18,476
Speaker 1: it more and more I'll get into it. Never is,

1682
01:17:18,636 --> 01:17:20,356
Speaker 1: but every time I do it, when I'm done, I'm like, oh,

1683
01:17:20,356 --> 01:17:22,156
Speaker 1: that was great. Why did I hate doing that? What's

1684
01:17:22,196 --> 01:17:22,756
Speaker 1: my problem?

1685
01:17:22,836 --> 01:17:22,956
Speaker 3: Right?

1686
01:17:23,036 --> 01:17:25,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the same thing can be true

1687
01:17:25,116 --> 01:17:27,756
Speaker 1: for doing nice things for others. For me, it's also

1688
01:17:27,796 --> 01:17:30,116
Speaker 1: true for like talking to people. I know that talking

1689
01:17:30,156 --> 01:17:32,916
Speaker 1: to strangers from all my studies. Again, I can tell

1690
01:17:32,956 --> 01:17:36,036
Speaker 1: you the journal article name right that it makes you happier.

1691
01:17:36,316 --> 01:17:38,476
Speaker 1: But I'm just like, don't really feel like talking to people.

1692
01:17:38,556 --> 01:17:41,756
Speaker 1: But then inevitably, when I do it, I'm like, Okay,

1693
01:17:41,756 --> 01:17:44,316
Speaker 1: I should really do it. I wind up feeling better.

1694
01:17:44,676 --> 01:17:46,716
Speaker 1: Even on the plane over here today, I was sitting

1695
01:17:46,716 --> 01:17:49,956
Speaker 1: next to someone who kind of plopped down, and this

1696
01:17:50,036 --> 01:17:52,956
Speaker 1: individual sort of disabled and like had a tough time

1697
01:17:52,996 --> 01:17:55,076
Speaker 1: getting in and was sort of seemingly sort of frustrated,

1698
01:17:55,436 --> 01:17:56,956
Speaker 1: and I had this moment of like, all I want

1699
01:17:57,036 --> 01:17:58,836
Speaker 1: to do is look at my phone and check my email.

1700
01:17:58,876 --> 01:18:01,076
Speaker 1: That's all my craving and motivation is telling me to do.

1701
01:18:01,156 --> 01:18:03,596
Speaker 1: But I know, happiness wise, I should like try to

1702
01:18:03,596 --> 01:18:06,116
Speaker 1: brighten this person's day. And so I did it, and

1703
01:18:06,196 --> 01:18:08,076
Speaker 1: we had a little chat, and then I felt a

1704
01:18:08,116 --> 01:18:10,396
Speaker 1: little bit brighter for ten minutes into the flight and

1705
01:18:10,436 --> 01:18:13,276
Speaker 1: feel like I've made you his version of that flight

1706
01:18:13,316 --> 01:18:14,876
Speaker 1: a little bit better than if I was just kind

1707
01:18:14,876 --> 01:18:15,476
Speaker 1: of on my own.

1708
01:18:17,276 --> 01:18:20,756
Speaker 3: How does this break down between introverts and extroverts Because

1709
01:18:20,916 --> 01:18:23,676
Speaker 3: that type of behavior comes a little bit more naturally

1710
01:18:23,716 --> 01:18:26,956
Speaker 3: to the extroverted person, and so it would follow that

1711
01:18:27,196 --> 01:18:31,316
Speaker 3: extroverts are happier because they're more social. They like to

1712
01:18:31,356 --> 01:18:34,156
Speaker 3: be around a lot of people, and you know, it's

1713
01:18:34,196 --> 01:18:36,116
Speaker 3: an easier lift for them to you know, kind of

1714
01:18:36,116 --> 01:18:38,916
Speaker 3: engage with people out in the world, whereas an introvert

1715
01:18:38,996 --> 01:18:42,516
Speaker 3: is like afraid of those situations or is avoiding those

1716
01:18:42,556 --> 01:18:47,356
Speaker 3: and isolating. So is there science around that those two archetypes.

1717
01:18:47,516 --> 01:18:49,796
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, Well, first is the is there a difference

1718
01:18:49,836 --> 01:18:51,916
Speaker 1: in the happiness of introverts and extroverts, and the answer

1719
01:18:51,956 --> 01:18:55,836
Speaker 1: seems to be yes or extroverts are happier, probably presumably

1720
01:18:55,876 --> 01:18:59,476
Speaker 1: because they're socially connecting more often and more easily, but.

1721
01:18:59,436 --> 01:19:01,396
Speaker 3: They can be more self obsessed, though they might be

1722
01:19:01,396 --> 01:19:02,196
Speaker 3: more self pubsessed.

1723
01:19:02,276 --> 01:19:06,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of nuance, as I said, for

1724
01:19:06,156 --> 01:19:08,196
Speaker 1: a lot of these. But there's a different question, right,

1725
01:19:08,236 --> 01:19:12,476
Speaker 1: which is if introverts engaged in more social connection, if

1726
01:19:12,476 --> 01:19:14,996
Speaker 1: they kind of pushed against their natural tendency not to

1727
01:19:14,996 --> 01:19:17,676
Speaker 1: do it but tried it out more, would they wind

1728
01:19:17,756 --> 01:19:19,956
Speaker 1: up being happier. And this is something that's been studied

1729
01:19:19,956 --> 01:19:21,916
Speaker 1: by lots of folks. My favorite experiments on this are

1730
01:19:21,916 --> 01:19:24,516
Speaker 1: by Nick up Lee at the University of Chicago where

1731
01:19:24,516 --> 01:19:26,516
Speaker 1: he does these studies where he forces people to talk

1732
01:19:26,556 --> 01:19:28,596
Speaker 1: to strangers that situation I was in talking to the

1733
01:19:28,596 --> 01:19:31,036
Speaker 1: person on the plane. He basically makes people do that

1734
01:19:31,076 --> 01:19:33,596
Speaker 1: on commuter trains in Chicago. He says you'll get a

1735
01:19:33,636 --> 01:19:36,516
Speaker 1: ten dollars Starbucks gift card if you spend the train

1736
01:19:36,596 --> 01:19:38,596
Speaker 1: ride talking to someone, And everyone hates to do it,

1737
01:19:38,636 --> 01:19:41,036
Speaker 1: but they do it because the promise of the ten

1738
01:19:41,076 --> 01:19:43,276
Speaker 1: dollars Starbucks gift card and social.

1739
01:19:42,956 --> 01:19:46,836
Speaker 3: Science amazing and a gift card will do yes.

1740
01:19:47,116 --> 01:19:49,116
Speaker 1: But people predict that this is going to be terrible

1741
01:19:49,916 --> 01:19:52,396
Speaker 1: talking to the stranger on the train, and introverts predict

1742
01:19:52,396 --> 01:19:54,316
Speaker 1: that it's going to be like more. I think the

1743
01:19:54,356 --> 01:19:56,196
Speaker 1: scale doesn't go low enough for them to say how

1744
01:19:56,276 --> 01:20:00,236
Speaker 1: terrible it will be. But both introverts and extroverts get

1745
01:20:00,436 --> 01:20:03,716
Speaker 1: a positive emotion boost from talking to the stranger, which

1746
01:20:03,756 --> 01:20:05,036
Speaker 1: is not what people expect.

1747
01:20:05,436 --> 01:20:09,436
Speaker 3: Does the boost higher for the introvert because there's seems

1748
01:20:09,436 --> 01:20:11,556
Speaker 3: to be more to be gained, like there's a bigger

1749
01:20:11,596 --> 01:20:12,196
Speaker 3: gap there.

1750
01:20:12,516 --> 01:20:16,116
Speaker 1: So the test that they did is the difference between

1751
01:20:16,156 --> 01:20:18,716
Speaker 1: your prediction and what the outcome was. They didn't compare

1752
01:20:18,756 --> 01:20:21,396
Speaker 1: introverts and extroverts, but what you find is the prediction error,

1753
01:20:21,476 --> 01:20:23,396
Speaker 1: right what you think is going to happen versus what

1754
01:20:23,516 --> 01:20:26,996
Speaker 1: really happens. That difference is much bigger for the introverts,

1755
01:20:27,356 --> 01:20:30,596
Speaker 1: but everybody overall gets a positive boost. This is the

1756
01:20:30,636 --> 01:20:32,196
Speaker 1: thing I'll tell you because you're going to look at

1757
01:20:32,196 --> 01:20:33,756
Speaker 1: the comment section of the show that we're going to

1758
01:20:33,756 --> 01:20:36,076
Speaker 1: get the most hate mail about. Because when I did

1759
01:20:36,276 --> 01:20:39,476
Speaker 1: a podcast about introverts try it out and get a

1760
01:20:39,516 --> 01:20:42,236
Speaker 1: little bit more social we got tons and tons of

1761
01:20:42,236 --> 01:20:46,436
Speaker 1: hate mail. I had this fantastic guest on, Jessica Pan

1762
01:20:46,516 --> 01:20:49,876
Speaker 1: who wrote this book called Sorry Emilee, I didn't want

1763
01:20:49,916 --> 01:20:53,396
Speaker 1: to come colon inn Introverts Guide to Extroverting, and she

1764
01:20:53,636 --> 01:20:56,876
Speaker 1: was this like incredibly hardcore introvert, like would go to

1765
01:20:56,916 --> 01:20:58,636
Speaker 1: parties and like, you know, have to go cry in

1766
01:20:58,676 --> 01:21:01,276
Speaker 1: the bathroom because she hated being social so much and

1767
01:21:01,356 --> 01:21:03,796
Speaker 1: read the work on extroverts being Happier and she's like,

1768
01:21:03,796 --> 01:21:05,116
Speaker 1: I'm just going to try it for a year, and

1769
01:21:05,196 --> 01:21:07,916
Speaker 1: she'd one of these experiments that journalists do, or they

1770
01:21:07,956 --> 01:21:09,516
Speaker 1: do the thing they will make them ha for a

1771
01:21:09,556 --> 01:21:12,996
Speaker 1: whole year and she did improv comedy, she went to

1772
01:21:13,076 --> 01:21:15,516
Speaker 1: like networking events, she talked to people on the train,

1773
01:21:15,556 --> 01:21:18,156
Speaker 1: and she worked with Nick Eppley about this and at

1774
01:21:18,196 --> 01:21:20,276
Speaker 1: the end of the year she was like way happier.

1775
01:21:20,596 --> 01:21:22,316
Speaker 1: And at the end of the year she found something interesting,

1776
01:21:22,356 --> 01:21:24,916
Speaker 1: which is like it's hard at first because your prediction

1777
01:21:25,076 --> 01:21:27,316
Speaker 1: is wrong, right, And if you think about that prediction

1778
01:21:27,436 --> 01:21:29,836
Speaker 1: er I just talked about, you see where it gets hard.

1779
01:21:29,876 --> 01:21:32,836
Speaker 1: You're an introvert. You're like, ah, I predict calling my

1780
01:21:32,836 --> 01:21:34,476
Speaker 1: friend that's going to be yucky. You're talking to the

1781
01:21:34,476 --> 01:21:36,396
Speaker 1: barriste at the coffee shop. Oh that's going to be yucky.

1782
01:21:36,836 --> 01:21:39,676
Speaker 1: You never do it, you don't notice it feel good,

1783
01:21:40,116 --> 01:21:42,276
Speaker 1: and you keep not doing it right. It's like when

1784
01:21:42,276 --> 01:21:44,236
Speaker 1: we get in bad cycles of whatever, you know. I

1785
01:21:44,236 --> 01:21:46,596
Speaker 1: see this sometimes in my own fitness journey, of like

1786
01:21:47,156 --> 01:21:48,836
Speaker 1: I don't feel like exercise and I don't do it.

1787
01:21:48,876 --> 01:21:50,676
Speaker 1: Then I forget, Oh my god, it feels amazing. Then

1788
01:21:50,796 --> 01:21:52,316
Speaker 1: it's harder for me to do it next time because

1789
01:21:52,316 --> 01:21:54,356
Speaker 1: I didn't do it before, and so on, and so

1790
01:21:54,636 --> 01:21:56,556
Speaker 1: folks like Nick Eppley think that this is kind of

1791
01:21:56,596 --> 01:21:58,756
Speaker 1: one of the things that happens to introverts is that

1792
01:21:59,436 --> 01:22:02,836
Speaker 1: you predict it's going to be crappy. You behaving based

1793
01:22:02,836 --> 01:22:05,836
Speaker 1: on your predictions. You don't engage in social connection, and

1794
01:22:05,836 --> 01:22:07,876
Speaker 1: then it's harder next time, and it's harder and it's harder,

1795
01:22:07,916 --> 01:22:10,916
Speaker 1: and so his advice would be baby steps. This is

1796
01:22:10,956 --> 01:22:13,396
Speaker 1: not like going to a party or doing improv comedy

1797
01:22:13,476 --> 01:22:15,356
Speaker 1: or like, you know, going out with three hundred of

1798
01:22:15,396 --> 01:22:17,716
Speaker 1: your best friends. This is just like text a good

1799
01:22:17,756 --> 01:22:20,316
Speaker 1: friend and say hey, can we connect for coffee, or like,

1800
01:22:20,516 --> 01:22:22,636
Speaker 1: you know, the set of time to call like someone

1801
01:22:22,636 --> 01:22:24,596
Speaker 1: you haven't talked to in a long time, it's not

1802
01:22:24,636 --> 01:22:26,756
Speaker 1: doing that all the time. It's just getting a little

1803
01:22:26,756 --> 01:22:28,796
Speaker 1: bit more of that in I didn't try to see,

1804
01:22:28,876 --> 01:22:29,436
Speaker 1: try to notice.

1805
01:22:29,476 --> 01:22:31,596
Speaker 3: If it makes you feel better, Yeah, well, let me

1806
01:22:32,036 --> 01:22:34,916
Speaker 3: try to inhabit the voice of Susan Kane right now

1807
01:22:34,996 --> 01:22:38,636
Speaker 3: and speak, you know, speak to the introvert thing. I

1808
01:22:38,636 --> 01:22:43,356
Speaker 3: think there is a distinction between the introvert who's just

1809
01:22:43,636 --> 01:22:48,436
Speaker 3: predisposed to a little bit more solitude and quiet and

1810
01:22:48,516 --> 01:22:53,036
Speaker 3: tends to thrive in those types of environments or is

1811
01:22:53,676 --> 01:22:58,836
Speaker 3: more suited to smaller gatherings, let's say, than the introvert

1812
01:22:58,916 --> 01:23:02,316
Speaker 3: who has this fear or this terror of these and

1813
01:23:02,356 --> 01:23:05,116
Speaker 3: it has like this negative predictive, you know, kind of

1814
01:23:05,116 --> 01:23:08,036
Speaker 3: brain around what happens when they're in those you know,

1815
01:23:08,116 --> 01:23:11,436
Speaker 3: more crowded irons. And I think on top of that,

1816
01:23:12,556 --> 01:23:14,836
Speaker 3: I would imagine that part of the pushback that you

1817
01:23:14,836 --> 01:23:18,836
Speaker 3: know you get for this is that beneath it all,

1818
01:23:19,036 --> 01:23:21,876
Speaker 3: there's this perspective that it's better to be an extrovert,

1819
01:23:22,116 --> 01:23:25,636
Speaker 3: and that if you're an introvert, you should be more

1820
01:23:25,716 --> 01:23:28,916
Speaker 3: extroverted or there's something wrong with you. And some people

1821
01:23:28,996 --> 01:23:32,156
Speaker 3: are more wired to be many many people are more

1822
01:23:32,196 --> 01:23:35,756
Speaker 3: wired to be more introverted than extroverted. I happen to

1823
01:23:35,796 --> 01:23:38,916
Speaker 3: be one of them, and it's very comforting to hear

1824
01:23:39,116 --> 01:23:41,716
Speaker 3: Susan talk about this and say, there's nothing wrong with

1825
01:23:41,796 --> 01:23:43,716
Speaker 3: you, you know what I mean. And that's not to say

1826
01:23:43,756 --> 01:23:46,356
Speaker 3: that what you're sharing is is incorrect either. It's that

1827
01:23:46,876 --> 01:23:50,756
Speaker 3: you know, if you are isolating and cutting yourself off

1828
01:23:50,796 --> 01:23:53,956
Speaker 3: from life because of this predisposition that you have, that

1829
01:23:54,516 --> 01:23:57,316
Speaker 3: there is greater happiness that you can find if you

1830
01:23:57,436 --> 01:23:59,676
Speaker 3: get out of your comfort zone and you know, put

1831
01:23:59,716 --> 01:24:02,956
Speaker 3: yourself in those uncomfortable positions. It doesn't mean that you

1832
01:24:02,996 --> 01:24:05,716
Speaker 3: have to become an extrovert or that there's an expectation

1833
01:24:05,796 --> 01:24:07,116
Speaker 3: around that is that you think that's.

1834
01:24:07,076 --> 01:24:10,596
Speaker 1: Exactly That's exactly I think. And I talk about the

1835
01:24:10,596 --> 01:24:12,556
Speaker 1: work in social connection, some people hear me saying like,

1836
01:24:12,596 --> 01:24:15,196
Speaker 1: don't be an introvert. That's wrong. Everybody should be extrovert.

1837
01:24:15,236 --> 01:24:17,676
Speaker 1: It's not true. I think there's a lot of happiness

1838
01:24:17,716 --> 01:24:21,316
Speaker 1: boosts that comes from certain aspects of introversion, like contemplation

1839
01:24:21,916 --> 01:24:24,196
Speaker 1: right time and a sense of kind of like being

1840
01:24:24,276 --> 01:24:27,116
Speaker 1: with yourself, understanding your own intentions right. I think there's

1841
01:24:27,916 --> 01:24:31,476
Speaker 1: forms of happiness that come from solitude that you can't

1842
01:24:31,476 --> 01:24:34,716
Speaker 1: get from social connection. That said, what we know is

1843
01:24:34,796 --> 01:24:36,716
Speaker 1: we're better or for worse. One of the ways that

1844
01:24:36,756 --> 01:24:39,476
Speaker 1: we boost our mood and improve our overall happiness and

1845
01:24:39,516 --> 01:24:42,836
Speaker 1: life satisfaction is to have rich connections with other people.

1846
01:24:43,236 --> 01:24:45,916
Speaker 1: Not to go to the hugest party and like whatever,

1847
01:24:46,076 --> 01:24:49,316
Speaker 1: but like make sure you're maintaining your social connection even

1848
01:24:49,356 --> 01:24:51,476
Speaker 1: with weak ties like the brast at the coffee shop

1849
01:24:51,556 --> 01:24:53,676
Speaker 1: or the stranger on the train. And what it means

1850
01:24:53,716 --> 01:24:55,996
Speaker 1: is if you're an extra, if you're an introvert that's

1851
01:24:56,036 --> 01:24:59,276
Speaker 1: not doing any of that, you're leaving opportunities for happiness

1852
01:24:59,276 --> 01:25:01,436
Speaker 1: on the table. And I think one thing to remember

1853
01:25:01,476 --> 01:25:04,316
Speaker 1: is there's so much of the advice about happiness that,

1854
01:25:04,396 --> 01:25:07,476
Speaker 1: at least for some personality types or people with certain backgrounds,

1855
01:25:07,916 --> 01:25:09,756
Speaker 1: feels like a little bit of a stress, you know,

1856
01:25:10,156 --> 01:25:12,116
Speaker 1: Like I think sometimes like you know, some people might

1857
01:25:12,116 --> 01:25:14,276
Speaker 1: listen to this podcast because like eating super healthy, like

1858
01:25:14,316 --> 01:25:16,436
Speaker 1: eating plant based and getting away from processed foods, it

1859
01:25:16,516 --> 01:25:19,316
Speaker 1: feels like a stretch for people given some backgrounds. Even

1860
01:25:19,356 --> 01:25:20,596
Speaker 1: you know, if you're the kid who's picked on in

1861
01:25:20,676 --> 01:25:22,756
Speaker 1: gym class, like the you know, moving your body every

1862
01:25:22,796 --> 01:25:24,356
Speaker 1: day might feel like a little bit of a stretch.

1863
01:25:24,556 --> 01:25:27,196
Speaker 1: I think social cognition is one that's just like that too, Right.

1864
01:25:27,276 --> 01:25:29,356
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a stretch for people, but

1865
01:25:29,716 --> 01:25:31,676
Speaker 1: if you engage in it doesn't make sense mean it's

1866
01:25:31,676 --> 01:25:34,396
Speaker 1: better or worse, But there's an opportunity for you on

1867
01:25:34,396 --> 01:25:35,956
Speaker 1: the table that if you engage with that a little

1868
01:25:35,996 --> 01:25:37,716
Speaker 1: bit more, you might wind up feeling.

1869
01:25:37,676 --> 01:25:39,916
Speaker 3: You don't have to break a rubber band, but you can,

1870
01:25:40,156 --> 01:25:41,396
Speaker 3: you know, extend it a.

1871
01:25:41,316 --> 01:25:44,876
Speaker 1: Little bit exactly and take a moment to notice, because

1872
01:25:44,916 --> 01:25:48,476
Speaker 1: I think one of the interesting things about so many

1873
01:25:48,556 --> 01:25:52,236
Speaker 1: things in this happiness space is that our predictions are wrong. Right.

1874
01:25:52,276 --> 01:25:54,236
Speaker 1: We predict this thing is not going to work, we

1875
01:25:54,316 --> 01:25:55,996
Speaker 1: do it. Oh, actually I feel a little bit better.

1876
01:25:56,196 --> 01:25:58,476
Speaker 1: We predict this thing, oh, definitely going to work, more money,

1877
01:25:58,516 --> 01:26:01,396
Speaker 1: you know, status, whatever, I still get to go after

1878
01:26:01,436 --> 01:26:03,836
Speaker 1: more of it, right. And so one of the reasons

1879
01:26:03,836 --> 01:26:05,596
Speaker 1: I like being a nerdy scientist in this space is

1880
01:26:05,636 --> 01:26:07,956
Speaker 1: I want people to test their predictions. Right, try it out.

1881
01:26:08,236 --> 01:26:10,236
Speaker 1: It may be more for you, maybe it will, but

1882
01:26:10,396 --> 01:26:12,636
Speaker 1: you can do your own experiments on yourself and see

1883
01:26:12,676 --> 01:26:13,436
Speaker 1: what works.

1884
01:26:13,836 --> 01:26:18,716
Speaker 3: And those experiments require a little bit of discomfort, yes, right,

1885
01:26:18,796 --> 01:26:21,356
Speaker 3: I mean that's the piece, right, So it's that Susan

1886
01:26:21,436 --> 01:26:24,636
Speaker 3: David thing like discomfort is the price of admission for

1887
01:26:24,676 --> 01:26:27,636
Speaker 3: a meaningful life. Yes, so you have to be willing

1888
01:26:27,756 --> 01:26:31,196
Speaker 3: to step outside yourself, even if just a little bit,

1889
01:26:31,836 --> 01:26:34,716
Speaker 3: to reap the benefits of any of these things that

1890
01:26:34,756 --> 01:26:35,636
Speaker 3: you're talking about.

1891
01:26:35,876 --> 01:26:38,116
Speaker 1: And this gets to something that we haven't really talked about, right,

1892
01:26:38,156 --> 01:26:42,236
Speaker 1: which is negative emotions, right, senses of you know, this

1893
01:26:42,396 --> 01:26:45,876
Speaker 1: kind of pushing yourself feeling uncomfortable. Right. I think that

1894
01:26:46,116 --> 01:26:48,716
Speaker 1: not only is discomfort the price of a meaningful life,

1895
01:26:48,756 --> 01:26:54,156
Speaker 1: but so are all negative emotions, right, Anxiety, stress, overwhelm, anger,

1896
01:26:54,676 --> 01:26:58,596
Speaker 1: all these things are prices for a meaningful life, and

1897
01:26:58,636 --> 01:27:00,396
Speaker 1: that means that we need to not run away from

1898
01:27:00,396 --> 01:27:03,516
Speaker 1: negative emotions. I think sometimes people hear about my class

1899
01:27:03,516 --> 01:27:06,316
Speaker 1: and assume it's this terrible Ivy League toxic positivity thing

1900
01:27:06,316 --> 01:27:08,636
Speaker 1: where I'm teaching people to be in, you know, happy

1901
01:27:08,676 --> 01:27:11,276
Speaker 1: emotion all the time, and I think it's not true

1902
01:27:11,276 --> 01:27:12,676
Speaker 1: at all. I think what we want to do is

1903
01:27:12,756 --> 01:27:17,076
Speaker 1: find ways to notice, except embrace, learn from our negative emotions,

1904
01:27:17,436 --> 01:27:19,396
Speaker 1: but also find good ways to regulate them.

1905
01:27:19,876 --> 01:27:23,636
Speaker 3: Do you get criticism for the class, like, oh yeah,

1906
01:27:23,796 --> 01:27:27,356
Speaker 3: is there skepticism that you're treating this subject matter in

1907
01:27:27,476 --> 01:27:30,116
Speaker 3: kind of a reductive way, or what is the nature

1908
01:27:30,196 --> 01:27:31,716
Speaker 3: of the I think critique.

1909
01:27:31,796 --> 01:27:35,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, part of the critique is these snowflakes that need

1910
01:27:35,276 --> 01:27:38,276
Speaker 1: a class on happiness, right, And I think those are

1911
01:27:38,316 --> 01:27:40,956
Speaker 1: people who just haven't, honestly, haven't seen the data of

1912
01:27:40,996 --> 01:27:43,676
Speaker 1: just how bad this mental health crisis is. I think

1913
01:27:43,716 --> 01:27:48,316
Speaker 1: there are also folks who think we're treating it from

1914
01:27:48,316 --> 01:27:51,276
Speaker 1: a scientific perspective and therefore we're missing out on other

1915
01:27:51,596 --> 01:27:54,236
Speaker 1: ways to kind of come to these truths, right, Which

1916
01:27:54,236 --> 01:27:55,716
Speaker 1: is one of the reasons I always like to bring

1917
01:27:55,756 --> 01:27:58,356
Speaker 1: in the wisdom of the ancients and philosophers often sometimes

1918
01:27:58,356 --> 01:28:01,956
Speaker 1: even spiritual traditions, right, because I like to see the

1919
01:28:01,996 --> 01:28:04,396
Speaker 1: science in part because often our intuitions are wrong, so

1920
01:28:04,396 --> 01:28:05,836
Speaker 1: it helps me to see the data of like, oh,

1921
01:28:05,876 --> 01:28:08,636
Speaker 1: actually talking to somebody does make you feel good. But

1922
01:28:09,156 --> 01:28:11,436
Speaker 1: so many of the ancient traditions figured this stuff out

1923
01:28:11,436 --> 01:28:13,756
Speaker 1: and had deep insights even in the absence of these

1924
01:28:13,996 --> 01:28:16,756
Speaker 1: psychological and neural data on these questions.

1925
01:28:17,476 --> 01:28:24,196
Speaker 3: What is your most controversial or contrarian opinion about happiness?

1926
01:28:24,716 --> 01:28:28,916
Speaker 1: Honestly, introversion, Like introverts could actually get a little bit

1927
01:28:28,956 --> 01:28:30,956
Speaker 1: more social connection, it won't be so bad that's when

1928
01:28:30,956 --> 01:28:33,236
Speaker 1: I get attacked on. Manifesting doesn't work in the way

1929
01:28:33,236 --> 01:28:35,196
Speaker 1: you think when I get attacked on money doesn't make

1930
01:28:35,236 --> 01:28:37,476
Speaker 1: you happy. I always know what's contrary, and.

1931
01:28:37,436 --> 01:28:39,876
Speaker 3: You're like, yeah, you're just whatever is going against the

1932
01:28:39,876 --> 01:28:41,476
Speaker 3: grain of TikTok trends.

1933
01:28:41,796 --> 01:28:43,996
Speaker 1: It might be. Honestly, it really is like if I

1934
01:28:44,036 --> 01:28:46,396
Speaker 1: could tweak the algorithm, we'd all I'd get much less

1935
01:28:46,396 --> 01:28:49,516
Speaker 1: hate mail. I mean, I think another big one really

1936
01:28:49,596 --> 01:28:53,996
Speaker 1: is just this idea that being happy is ultimately good

1937
01:28:54,036 --> 01:28:56,156
Speaker 1: if what you want to do is face challenges and

1938
01:28:56,196 --> 01:29:00,116
Speaker 1: push yourself. A different attack I get is kind of

1939
01:29:00,756 --> 01:29:03,116
Speaker 1: look at the world right now. It is falling apart,

1940
01:29:03,316 --> 01:29:06,556
Speaker 1: you know, like from the economy to the climate to whatever.

1941
01:29:06,716 --> 01:29:09,396
Speaker 1: Like it's just like a crappy place with many big

1942
01:29:09,436 --> 01:29:12,876
Speaker 1: structural problems. Right You're going around telling everybody to like

1943
01:29:12,956 --> 01:29:15,316
Speaker 1: be happy and accept the things in life and find

1944
01:29:15,316 --> 01:29:17,956
Speaker 1: your purpose, right Like, people need to not be happy.

1945
01:29:17,996 --> 01:29:19,796
Speaker 1: People need to be out there pissed off. You know,

1946
01:29:19,796 --> 01:29:21,956
Speaker 1: if you're not angry, you're not paying attention kind of thing.

1947
01:29:22,436 --> 01:29:24,156
Speaker 1: And this is a pushback I actually get from a

1948
01:29:24,156 --> 01:29:26,276
Speaker 1: lot of my students. I think a lot of the

1949
01:29:26,316 --> 01:29:28,876
Speaker 1: young people I work with are you're really inclined to

1950
01:29:29,076 --> 01:29:31,236
Speaker 1: worry about the big problems and fix them, and think

1951
01:29:31,276 --> 01:29:33,196
Speaker 1: that the way you face those big problems is not

1952
01:29:33,276 --> 01:29:36,156
Speaker 1: to like be happy in the face of them, or

1953
01:29:36,236 --> 01:29:38,596
Speaker 1: to kind of be happy in ways that like ignore

1954
01:29:38,636 --> 01:29:41,796
Speaker 1: the structural problems. Right. I think sometimes people here, for example, like,

1955
01:29:41,836 --> 01:29:44,076
Speaker 1: you know, more money doesn't make you happy, that what

1956
01:29:44,116 --> 01:29:46,956
Speaker 1: I'm doing is like justifying like really terrible practices where

1957
01:29:47,036 --> 01:29:49,756
Speaker 1: billionaires get richer. It's like naha. I think what we

1958
01:29:49,836 --> 01:29:52,276
Speaker 1: need to remember is two things. One is that we

1959
01:29:52,316 --> 01:29:56,396
Speaker 1: can have individual change and individual strategies for feeling happier

1960
01:29:56,396 --> 01:29:59,716
Speaker 1: that work alongside the structural changes for making you happier. Right,

1961
01:29:59,716 --> 01:30:02,036
Speaker 1: you can write in your gratitude journal and do it

1962
01:30:02,036 --> 01:30:04,996
Speaker 1: expressive writing if you're in a terrible job situation while

1963
01:30:05,036 --> 01:30:08,276
Speaker 1: working to change that terrible job situation, right, and those

1964
01:30:08,476 --> 01:30:10,876
Speaker 1: things should go together, right, It's not like, well, just

1965
01:30:11,036 --> 01:30:12,836
Speaker 1: expressive writing and then you can put up with these

1966
01:30:13,236 --> 01:30:15,996
Speaker 1: terrible bad practices. But I think the other thing is

1967
01:30:15,996 --> 01:30:18,156
Speaker 1: that researchers have gone out and asked the question, like,

1968
01:30:18,796 --> 01:30:21,276
Speaker 1: what is this set of psychology and the set of

1969
01:30:21,276 --> 01:30:23,316
Speaker 1: emotions that you need to be the kind of person

1970
01:30:23,356 --> 01:30:26,716
Speaker 1: that's fighting these big structural problems. His work by Constantin

1971
01:30:26,756 --> 01:30:29,356
Speaker 1: Kush left at Georgetown, and what he finds is that like,

1972
01:30:29,676 --> 01:30:31,996
Speaker 1: it's actually the people who are experiencing the most positive

1973
01:30:31,996 --> 01:30:34,076
Speaker 1: emotion who are the ones who are the bandwidth to

1974
01:30:34,156 --> 01:30:36,676
Speaker 1: go out and fight this stuff. He looks at folks

1975
01:30:36,716 --> 01:30:38,716
Speaker 1: who are interested in, for example, in things like climate

1976
01:30:38,836 --> 01:30:41,156
Speaker 1: justice and asks like, who are the ones who aren't

1977
01:30:41,156 --> 01:30:44,916
Speaker 1: just like anxious about climate change, but really you know,

1978
01:30:44,996 --> 01:30:47,876
Speaker 1: putting on solar panels, going to a protest, donating money.

1979
01:30:48,116 --> 01:30:50,036
Speaker 1: And he finds that it's the folks who experience the

1980
01:30:50,036 --> 01:30:53,316
Speaker 1: most positive emotion who are taking the actions. It's kind

1981
01:30:53,316 --> 01:30:55,676
Speaker 1: of like, you know, putting your own oxygen mask on first.

1982
01:30:56,076 --> 01:30:58,796
Speaker 1: And so this is something that I really push is

1983
01:30:58,836 --> 01:31:00,156
Speaker 1: that when people are like, well, if you're not angry,

1984
01:31:00,196 --> 01:31:03,396
Speaker 1: you're not paying attention, It's like, yes, but a little

1985
01:31:03,396 --> 01:31:06,076
Speaker 1: bit of self care to protect yourself, kind of protecting

1986
01:31:06,076 --> 01:31:07,716
Speaker 1: your own bandwidth is going to make you the kind

1987
01:31:07,756 --> 01:31:10,036
Speaker 1: of person who has there is alience to kind of

1988
01:31:10,076 --> 01:31:11,036
Speaker 1: fight the big fights.

1989
01:31:11,036 --> 01:31:15,396
Speaker 3: And so whatever you're pursuing, whether it's some strain of

1990
01:31:15,516 --> 01:31:21,036
Speaker 3: activism or you have an ambition, what I'm hearing is

1991
01:31:21,076 --> 01:31:26,876
Speaker 3: that happiness on some level is actually strategic in achieving

1992
01:31:27,036 --> 01:31:31,196
Speaker 3: those goals, because otherwise you're on an unsustainable fuel source

1993
01:31:31,396 --> 01:31:34,356
Speaker 3: and you'll burn out. Right. So if you're fulfilled in

1994
01:31:34,396 --> 01:31:37,676
Speaker 3: finding meaning and purpose and all of these aspects of

1995
01:31:38,076 --> 01:31:40,956
Speaker 3: what it means to be happy in the pursuit of

1996
01:31:40,996 --> 01:31:45,316
Speaker 3: these difficult things, then you're going to stay in the game. Yes, Otherwise,

1997
01:31:45,396 --> 01:31:48,516
Speaker 3: like if you're just fueled by anger and outrage and

1998
01:31:48,876 --> 01:31:51,476
Speaker 3: this has to change, you know, when you're young, it's

1999
01:31:51,476 --> 01:31:53,396
Speaker 3: like you know, of course you think that you'll be

2000
01:31:53,436 --> 01:31:55,476
Speaker 3: able to do that forever, right, but you're not going

2001
01:31:55,556 --> 01:31:57,596
Speaker 3: to last, Like you're not going to be able to

2002
01:31:57,636 --> 01:32:00,156
Speaker 3: stay in it for all four quarters of the game.

2003
01:32:00,276 --> 01:32:02,396
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I love your idea that it's fuel right,

2004
01:32:02,436 --> 01:32:05,036
Speaker 1: because I think it really is, you know, And I

2005
01:32:05,036 --> 01:32:06,836
Speaker 1: think this is a spot where we get the metaphor

2006
01:32:06,916 --> 01:32:09,116
Speaker 1: is all wrong. Right. Another thing we hear on TikTok

2007
01:32:09,156 --> 01:32:11,756
Speaker 1: all that time is like work life balance, right, which

2008
01:32:11,996 --> 01:32:14,116
Speaker 1: I think at our brains we picture like a scale like, well,

2009
01:32:14,116 --> 01:32:16,236
Speaker 1: when work is going up, when I'm performing really hard,

2010
01:32:16,356 --> 01:32:18,676
Speaker 1: like you know, life is going down like they can't

2011
01:32:18,756 --> 01:32:21,716
Speaker 1: kind of and I think a much more accurate way

2012
01:32:21,716 --> 01:32:23,756
Speaker 1: of thinking about it, which we get from the science

2013
01:32:23,876 --> 01:32:26,916
Speaker 1: is the sense of work life harmony, right, where if

2014
01:32:26,956 --> 01:32:29,396
Speaker 1: you're prioritizing life, by which I mean kind of happiness

2015
01:32:29,436 --> 01:32:31,476
Speaker 1: and mental health and so on, you're gonna work better,

2016
01:32:31,516 --> 01:32:33,796
Speaker 1: You're gonna perform better, you're gonna have more bandwidth to

2017
01:32:33,796 --> 01:32:36,116
Speaker 1: do the stuff you care about. And this is the

2018
01:32:36,196 --> 01:32:38,276
Speaker 1: kind of thing we see and study after study you

2019
01:32:38,316 --> 01:32:41,036
Speaker 1: give people, you know, a hard problem at work. One

2020
01:32:41,076 --> 01:32:42,916
Speaker 1: of these was done with medical doctors where it's like

2021
01:32:42,956 --> 01:32:44,836
Speaker 1: you have to kind of you get some tough problem

2022
01:32:44,916 --> 01:32:46,636
Speaker 1: you have to figure out, like what's the diagnosis? Is

2023
01:32:46,636 --> 01:32:49,156
Speaker 1: really tricky. You need true innovative out of the box thinking.

2024
01:32:49,716 --> 01:32:51,836
Speaker 1: You put some set of doctors in a good mood. First,

2025
01:32:51,836 --> 01:32:54,276
Speaker 1: they just watch silly cat videos on YouTube. Aut of time,

2026
01:32:54,596 --> 01:32:56,636
Speaker 1: they're the ones that come up with the innovative solution.

2027
01:32:57,036 --> 01:32:57,236
Speaker 3: Right.

2028
01:32:57,636 --> 01:33:00,356
Speaker 1: You have to go through something really uncomfortable at work,

2029
01:33:00,356 --> 01:33:02,716
Speaker 1: whether that's you know, a terrible time like COVID or

2030
01:33:02,796 --> 01:33:05,396
Speaker 1: just like pushing yourself on a hard workout. But you

2031
01:33:05,436 --> 01:33:08,756
Speaker 1: go into that listening to happy, upbeat music versus like

2032
01:33:10,196 --> 01:33:12,436
Speaker 1: you know, drought down or you or music, and like

2033
01:33:12,476 --> 01:33:14,476
Speaker 1: you're going to push through better if you're just like

2034
01:33:14,796 --> 01:33:17,196
Speaker 1: you know, and so it seems so simple. But I

2035
01:33:17,196 --> 01:33:19,236
Speaker 1: think we get it wrong, right. We're like, well, you know,

2036
01:33:19,236 --> 01:33:21,596
Speaker 1: I have this ambition that I really care about, and

2037
01:33:21,636 --> 01:33:23,636
Speaker 1: I'm just going to make myself super miserable. I'm not

2038
01:33:23,676 --> 01:33:25,476
Speaker 1: going to see my friends, I'm not going to sleep.

2039
01:33:25,516 --> 01:33:27,556
Speaker 1: I'm going to just like you know. But then I'll

2040
01:33:27,596 --> 01:33:29,716
Speaker 1: get to the success and I'll feel happy. And we

2041
01:33:29,756 --> 01:33:31,796
Speaker 1: get it wrong in two ways. One that we've talked about,

2042
01:33:31,836 --> 01:33:33,756
Speaker 1: like the success that arrival isn't going to make us

2043
01:33:33,756 --> 01:33:35,796
Speaker 1: as happy as we think. The second, if what you

2044
01:33:35,836 --> 01:33:38,356
Speaker 1: really want to do is perform, well you're not doing

2045
01:33:38,396 --> 01:33:40,396
Speaker 1: that as well, if you're not taking care of yourself,

2046
01:33:40,436 --> 01:33:42,836
Speaker 1: if you're not giving yourself as or happiness fuel that

2047
01:33:42,876 --> 01:33:48,196
Speaker 1: we know performance like true exceptional optimal performance really requires.

2048
01:33:48,476 --> 01:33:51,916
Speaker 3: I think that's a really important point. I know what

2049
01:33:51,956 --> 01:33:55,556
Speaker 3: it's like to be laser focused on something and you know,

2050
01:33:55,636 --> 01:33:58,316
Speaker 3: lose myself in the pursuit of a name or a goal,

2051
01:33:59,196 --> 01:34:02,716
Speaker 3: and there is something dopamine inducing about that. There's like

2052
01:34:02,756 --> 01:34:05,396
Speaker 3: a euphoria of like I'm all in man and I

2053
01:34:05,396 --> 01:34:08,556
Speaker 3: don't have time for anything else. That in it of

2054
01:34:08,596 --> 01:34:12,276
Speaker 3: itself as a form of self obsession where you begin

2055
01:34:12,316 --> 01:34:14,076
Speaker 3: to believe or I should say, I you know, I

2056
01:34:14,476 --> 01:34:18,156
Speaker 3: have been lured into into places where I would think

2057
01:34:18,436 --> 01:34:21,156
Speaker 3: is happiness like is it really all that important? Like

2058
01:34:21,636 --> 01:34:24,636
Speaker 3: it feels like an indulgence and also something I can

2059
01:34:24,676 --> 01:34:28,476
Speaker 3: live without because I have this purpose and it's fulfilling

2060
01:34:28,476 --> 01:34:30,836
Speaker 3: and it's giving me meaning and it's driving me forward,

2061
01:34:30,956 --> 01:34:33,196
Speaker 3: and I have this aim and I'm gonna I'm going

2062
01:34:33,276 --> 01:34:39,116
Speaker 3: to get there. And so not only is or are

2063
01:34:39,276 --> 01:34:40,756
Speaker 3: all of the things that you need to do to

2064
01:34:40,876 --> 01:34:46,236
Speaker 3: engender happiness inconvenient, They just feel indulgent and like a distraction.

2065
01:34:47,036 --> 01:34:50,676
Speaker 3: And that is part and parcel of like the Striver's dilemma.

2066
01:34:51,676 --> 01:34:53,676
Speaker 3: We had this woman in here the other day, doctor

2067
01:34:53,876 --> 01:34:56,956
Speaker 3: Judith Joseph, who talks about, you know, high functioning depression,

2068
01:34:56,996 --> 01:34:58,596
Speaker 3: and I'm like reading this book and I'm like, oh

2069
01:34:58,636 --> 01:35:03,716
Speaker 3: my god, Yeah, they changed like seeing god, you know. Anyway,

2070
01:35:04,036 --> 01:35:06,556
Speaker 3: But I can also imagine the person who has a

2071
01:35:06,676 --> 01:35:09,516
Speaker 3: very challenging life, like the single mom with two and

2072
01:35:09,636 --> 01:35:11,716
Speaker 3: kids and has to take the bus to work and

2073
01:35:12,116 --> 01:35:15,356
Speaker 3: life is just hard. And for that person, that person

2074
01:35:15,396 --> 01:35:19,476
Speaker 3: as well, I would imagine, is in a position where

2075
01:35:19,476 --> 01:35:23,556
Speaker 3: they could develop the perspective that like, this happiness thing

2076
01:35:23,596 --> 01:35:26,916
Speaker 3: is an indulgence and I can't take my eyes off

2077
01:35:26,956 --> 01:35:30,676
Speaker 3: the ball because people need me and I need to provide,

2078
01:35:30,756 --> 01:35:34,596
Speaker 3: And so make the argument for the self care at

2079
01:35:34,676 --> 01:35:38,756
Speaker 3: least at a base level to cultivate some degree of

2080
01:35:38,836 --> 01:35:42,396
Speaker 3: happiness From that sustainability perspective.

2081
01:35:41,996 --> 01:35:44,556
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, you just can't sustain that for very long.

2082
01:35:44,716 --> 01:35:48,116
Speaker 1: And again, we know this in other domains. I remember

2083
01:35:48,116 --> 01:35:50,436
Speaker 1: one thing from you reading your book that I loved

2084
01:35:50,436 --> 01:35:52,956
Speaker 1: in your story was, you know, even when you're training

2085
01:35:52,956 --> 01:35:54,876
Speaker 1: to be as fast as possible, you didn't want to

2086
01:35:54,916 --> 01:35:57,476
Speaker 1: run as fast as possible. You actually want to be it.

2087
01:35:57,636 --> 01:35:58,276
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not.

2088
01:35:59,876 --> 01:36:02,756
Speaker 3: Comfort conservation and efficiency.

2089
01:36:02,156 --> 01:36:05,636
Speaker 1: And active rest, right, active rest, we understand that in

2090
01:36:05,716 --> 01:36:08,676
Speaker 1: other high performance fields. We forget that when it comes

2091
01:36:08,756 --> 01:36:11,276
Speaker 1: to just performing at our jobs in our life. And

2092
01:36:11,356 --> 01:36:13,476
Speaker 1: I think of active rest as the kind of fuel

2093
01:36:13,516 --> 01:36:15,676
Speaker 1: that we need to do it better. Right, that sometimes

2094
01:36:15,676 --> 01:36:17,756
Speaker 1: what we need is a break. Times what we need

2095
01:36:17,836 --> 01:36:19,796
Speaker 1: is like a moment to notice that stupid delight in

2096
01:36:19,836 --> 01:36:22,396
Speaker 1: the world, to like, you know, have a gab fest

2097
01:36:22,436 --> 01:36:24,756
Speaker 1: with our you know, good girlfriends, right, Like, we just

2098
01:36:24,836 --> 01:36:28,556
Speaker 1: kind of need this time to boost our overall mood

2099
01:36:28,756 --> 01:36:30,996
Speaker 1: and to kind of feel good in life and to

2100
01:36:31,036 --> 01:36:33,676
Speaker 1: feel good with life. And ultimately, if we're doing that,

2101
01:36:33,756 --> 01:36:35,916
Speaker 1: it just makes it easier to achieve the bigger aims

2102
01:36:35,956 --> 01:36:38,916
Speaker 1: that we have for ourselves. I hope you've been enjoying

2103
01:36:38,916 --> 01:36:41,796
Speaker 1: my appearance on the Ritual podcast. We'll have even more

2104
01:36:41,836 --> 01:36:42,996
Speaker 1: fun after the break.

2105
01:36:45,316 --> 01:36:51,796
Speaker 3: You mentioned curiosity earlier. Clearly having a growth mindset, or

2106
01:36:51,876 --> 01:36:55,756
Speaker 3: being interested in the world or wanting to learn things

2107
01:36:55,796 --> 01:37:00,596
Speaker 3: and seeking out new experiences are crucial, you know, to

2108
01:37:00,636 --> 01:37:04,076
Speaker 3: being a happy person. But at baseline, like foundational to

2109
01:37:04,156 --> 01:37:08,716
Speaker 3: that is your relationship with your own curiosity. So talk

2110
01:37:08,716 --> 01:37:13,236
Speaker 3: a little bit about that, Like, curiosity is something that is,

2111
01:37:14,036 --> 01:37:16,476
Speaker 3: you know, part of being human but also lives on

2112
01:37:16,516 --> 01:37:17,116
Speaker 3: a spectrum.

2113
01:37:17,436 --> 01:37:19,556
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think there's so much we can do

2114
01:37:19,636 --> 01:37:23,076
Speaker 1: with curiosity to to feel happier. Right. One is that

2115
01:37:23,156 --> 01:37:26,756
Speaker 1: sometimes curiosity can be a little motivating force that gets

2116
01:37:26,836 --> 01:37:29,796
Speaker 1: us to positive emotions we don't expect. One of the

2117
01:37:29,836 --> 01:37:32,236
Speaker 1: positive emotions I think about a lot is the experience

2118
01:37:32,276 --> 01:37:34,996
Speaker 1: of awe. Right, This like sense of wonder, the sense

2119
01:37:34,996 --> 01:37:36,796
Speaker 1: of stuff is bigger than you. You know, we've talked

2120
01:37:36,796 --> 01:37:39,116
Speaker 1: a lot about being self obsessed, but like when you

2121
01:37:39,156 --> 01:37:41,716
Speaker 1: look at you know, the skyline here in the canyon,

2122
01:37:41,836 --> 01:37:43,836
Speaker 1: or when you look at you know, something bigger than you,

2123
01:37:43,916 --> 01:37:46,236
Speaker 1: or even just like people doing amazing moral good in

2124
01:37:46,276 --> 01:37:48,436
Speaker 1: the world, like you're just like, wow, there's things that

2125
01:37:48,436 --> 01:37:49,756
Speaker 1: are bigger than myself because it's just.

2126
01:37:49,796 --> 01:37:54,076
Speaker 3: So inconvenient though, well there's so much it is hard,

2127
01:37:54,156 --> 01:37:56,156
Speaker 3: like a gratitude there.

2128
01:37:56,116 --> 01:37:59,036
Speaker 1: Go with delights, go with the light. I mean, sometimes

2129
01:37:59,036 --> 01:37:59,436
Speaker 1: these words.

2130
01:37:59,436 --> 01:38:01,676
Speaker 3: Get why you consciously use the word delights?

2131
01:38:01,756 --> 01:38:03,796
Speaker 1: I think so because sometimes it feels like, you know,

2132
01:38:04,116 --> 01:38:06,916
Speaker 1: was I grateful that the guy was listening to like

2133
01:38:06,996 --> 01:38:09,556
Speaker 1: Cypress Hill in the car and the Lowrider and not really?

2134
01:38:09,596 --> 01:38:11,956
Speaker 1: But was that delightful that you know, talking about it now?

2135
01:38:12,036 --> 01:38:14,036
Speaker 1: Does it make me smile a little? That? Yeah? It does, right?

2136
01:38:14,316 --> 01:38:16,796
Speaker 1: And I think all like if if all feels too much,

2137
01:38:17,076 --> 01:38:18,996
Speaker 1: like maybe go with like bad ass, Like when you

2138
01:38:18,996 --> 01:38:21,676
Speaker 1: see something really like that was just bad ass, Like

2139
01:38:21,756 --> 01:38:24,836
Speaker 1: that was badass sunset or like you know, the James

2140
01:38:24,836 --> 01:38:27,476
Speaker 1: Wood space telescope. We just see all these worlds that

2141
01:38:27,556 --> 01:38:30,676
Speaker 1: is badass, or like someone doing an amazing you know

2142
01:38:31,116 --> 01:38:33,236
Speaker 1: thing in Fitless is like like you know, smpone Biles,

2143
01:38:33,276 --> 01:38:36,756
Speaker 1: It's just like she was bad ass that badass allows

2144
01:38:36,796 --> 01:38:38,876
Speaker 1: you to think of something that's bigger than yourself. It

2145
01:38:38,916 --> 01:38:41,316
Speaker 1: allows you to see achievement like it just kind of

2146
01:38:41,356 --> 01:38:44,196
Speaker 1: feels like a good positive emotion. And so I think

2147
01:38:44,236 --> 01:38:46,836
Speaker 1: curiosity can often get us to things that are badass,

2148
01:38:46,836 --> 01:38:48,876
Speaker 1: and that's helpful. But I think a bigger way that

2149
01:38:48,916 --> 01:38:52,116
Speaker 1: curiosity is so important for our positive emotions is that

2150
01:38:52,156 --> 01:38:55,236
Speaker 1: we can use curiosity to allow and deal with our

2151
01:38:55,316 --> 01:38:58,956
Speaker 1: negative emotions. I think the kinds of you know, type

2152
01:38:58,996 --> 01:39:00,516
Speaker 1: A folks that you talk to a lot on this

2153
01:39:00,596 --> 01:39:03,716
Speaker 1: podcast and listen to this podcast are like perform perform

2154
01:39:03,756 --> 01:39:06,276
Speaker 1: all the time, and that sense of overwhelm or that fear,

2155
01:39:06,396 --> 01:39:08,556
Speaker 1: that anxiety or that yuck you feel like that that

2156
01:39:08,636 --> 01:39:11,556
Speaker 1: is really so I'm just gonna sqush that down. But

2157
01:39:11,676 --> 01:39:14,876
Speaker 1: in doing that, we lose the opportunity to learn from

2158
01:39:14,876 --> 01:39:17,476
Speaker 1: our emotions, to learn from our discomfort, something that Susan

2159
01:39:17,516 --> 01:39:20,716
Speaker 1: Kane talks about a lot. I think curiosity can be

2160
01:39:20,836 --> 01:39:23,676
Speaker 1: away in especially if you're kind of uncomfortable with those

2161
01:39:23,716 --> 01:39:26,036
Speaker 1: negative emotions and your move is like squish them away.

2162
01:39:26,036 --> 01:39:28,796
Speaker 1: I don't feel that get curious, like, huh, I don't

2163
01:39:28,836 --> 01:39:31,156
Speaker 1: want to do this workout today? What's going on, like Oh,

2164
01:39:31,156 --> 01:39:33,756
Speaker 1: I'm feeling a little overwhelmed at work, or huh, I'm

2165
01:39:33,756 --> 01:39:35,556
Speaker 1: feeling like a little bit pissed off, right, I'm like

2166
01:39:35,636 --> 01:39:38,636
Speaker 1: extra pissed off in this traffic right now. Curiosity, what's

2167
01:39:38,676 --> 01:39:40,476
Speaker 1: going on? Where is this coming from? Like, oh, I'm

2168
01:39:40,476 --> 01:39:43,156
Speaker 1: actually feeling kind of lonely right, Often when we get

2169
01:39:43,156 --> 01:39:45,196
Speaker 1: a little bit curious about our emotions, it's a way

2170
01:39:45,196 --> 01:39:47,476
Speaker 1: to engage with them in a way that doesn't like

2171
01:39:47,956 --> 01:39:50,956
Speaker 1: amplify them, but kind of has some common humanity, like

2172
01:39:50,956 --> 01:39:53,196
Speaker 1: make sense, I'm feeling this, Let me try to understand it,

2173
01:39:53,596 --> 01:39:56,196
Speaker 1: and then we can use emotions what they're for, what

2174
01:39:56,236 --> 01:39:58,756
Speaker 1: they're really for evolutionarily, which is I think of them

2175
01:39:58,796 --> 01:40:01,956
Speaker 1: as like our like internal signaling unit. Like I like

2176
01:40:01,996 --> 01:40:04,156
Speaker 1: to see our negative emotions is like the dashboard on

2177
01:40:04,196 --> 01:40:06,636
Speaker 1: your car. It's like tire light, engine light, you know

2178
01:40:06,676 --> 01:40:08,396
Speaker 1: that comes on in your car. If it came on

2179
01:40:08,436 --> 01:40:10,796
Speaker 1: in my rental car today, like it'd be really inconvenient,

2180
01:40:10,916 --> 01:40:12,956
Speaker 1: like crap, I had to deal with this tire situation.

2181
01:40:13,356 --> 01:40:15,196
Speaker 1: And I think our negative emotions are kind of like that.

2182
01:40:15,236 --> 01:40:17,796
Speaker 1: It's like ding ding overwhelmed, like ding ding anxiety. It's

2183
01:40:17,796 --> 01:40:20,316
Speaker 1: like this is stupid but if you don't deal with it,

2184
01:40:20,396 --> 01:40:22,116
Speaker 1: you know you're going to break down on the highway.

2185
01:40:22,156 --> 01:40:25,556
Speaker 1: And I think the same is true for negative emotions. Right,

2186
01:40:25,596 --> 01:40:27,676
Speaker 1: we need to get curious, like, huh, I wonder what's

2187
01:40:27,676 --> 01:40:29,556
Speaker 1: going Why is that sense of overwhelm? They're like, oh,

2188
01:40:29,556 --> 01:40:31,276
Speaker 1: I'm too busy at work, or I need to take

2189
01:40:31,276 --> 01:40:34,196
Speaker 1: a break, or often there's something in there that you

2190
01:40:34,276 --> 01:40:36,796
Speaker 1: can change your mindset or change your behavior about to

2191
01:40:36,836 --> 01:40:38,796
Speaker 1: fix it. But if you suppress it, you're just not

2192
01:40:38,836 --> 01:40:40,516
Speaker 1: going to notice what that signal is telling you.

2193
01:40:40,796 --> 01:40:46,116
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's another way of disidentifying. Yeah, detaching yourself a little.

2194
01:40:45,916 --> 01:40:48,076
Speaker 1: Bit from indicator.

2195
01:40:48,076 --> 01:40:51,556
Speaker 3: Because negative emotions can be intoxicating, and when they flare up,

2196
01:40:51,636 --> 01:40:54,476
Speaker 3: then there's a kind of instinct to indulge them, right,

2197
01:40:54,516 --> 01:40:57,116
Speaker 3: and you're not even consciously thinking about it. It just

2198
01:40:57,196 --> 01:41:00,636
Speaker 3: takes over. And then in the aftermath of that we

2199
01:41:00,756 --> 01:41:03,876
Speaker 3: self flagellate like like I can't believe why did I

2200
01:41:03,916 --> 01:41:05,516
Speaker 3: do that? And you feel guilty and Shane, you just

2201
01:41:05,516 --> 01:41:06,596
Speaker 3: go down in the spiral.

2202
01:41:06,716 --> 01:41:06,916
Speaker 1: Right.

2203
01:41:07,356 --> 01:41:09,716
Speaker 3: But to be able to look at it as if

2204
01:41:09,756 --> 01:41:13,436
Speaker 3: you're watching it on television as opposed to something that's

2205
01:41:13,436 --> 01:41:19,396
Speaker 3: happening to you is a really powerful technique, and using

2206
01:41:19,516 --> 01:41:23,476
Speaker 3: curiosity as the way in is a really cool idea.

2207
01:41:24,076 --> 01:41:29,516
Speaker 3: Some people are naturally very curious. Some people are extremely incurious.

2208
01:41:30,076 --> 01:41:32,316
Speaker 3: You know. I'd asked this question to other other people

2209
01:41:32,356 --> 01:41:35,396
Speaker 3: on the show, and everyone seems to agree that curiosity

2210
01:41:35,476 --> 01:41:38,116
Speaker 3: is something that you can learn and get better at

2211
01:41:38,316 --> 01:41:41,396
Speaker 3: and trained, but you have to be curious about your

2212
01:41:41,436 --> 01:41:44,316
Speaker 3: own curiosity A loop there.

2213
01:41:44,996 --> 01:41:47,916
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think with all of these things, there

2214
01:41:47,916 --> 01:41:50,156
Speaker 1: are going to be some of these sort of happiness hacks,

2215
01:41:50,156 --> 01:41:52,676
Speaker 1: happiness strategies that come really easy, right. You know, you

2216
01:41:52,756 --> 01:41:54,756
Speaker 1: might be listening to this year super ex or oh yeah,

2217
01:41:54,796 --> 01:41:57,196
Speaker 1: social connection tick or oh yeah, like watching what I

2218
01:41:57,196 --> 01:41:59,356
Speaker 1: eat or moving my body great, But then there's some

2219
01:41:59,436 --> 01:42:02,116
Speaker 1: that like h this one, like curiosity is a little harder.

2220
01:42:02,556 --> 01:42:04,196
Speaker 1: I actually think those are the domains where you're going

2221
01:42:04,236 --> 01:42:06,716
Speaker 1: to have the most impact, right. You know, we mentioned

2222
01:42:06,716 --> 01:42:08,676
Speaker 1: this idea of being ten percent happier. You're not going

2223
01:42:08,676 --> 01:42:10,516
Speaker 1: to go from zero to one hundred. So it's helpful

2224
01:42:10,556 --> 01:42:13,796
Speaker 1: to find the spots where you're as close to baseline,

2225
01:42:13,796 --> 01:42:15,716
Speaker 1: as close to not doing it all as possible, because

2226
01:42:15,716 --> 01:42:17,636
Speaker 1: if you intervene on that, even a little baby staff

2227
01:42:17,676 --> 01:42:19,476
Speaker 1: will kind of give you a big boost. And so

2228
01:42:19,516 --> 01:42:23,476
Speaker 1: if yours is curiosity, I think just use the opportunity

2229
01:42:23,516 --> 01:42:26,036
Speaker 1: to kind of notice a little bit, right, Rather than

2230
01:42:26,076 --> 01:42:28,516
Speaker 1: call it curiosity, just call it noticing. Just noticing what's

2231
01:42:28,516 --> 01:42:31,276
Speaker 1: happening in my body. I'm noticing what's going on. Expressive

2232
01:42:31,276 --> 01:42:34,036
Speaker 1: writing is a really great tool for this, in part

2233
01:42:34,116 --> 01:42:36,116
Speaker 1: because when you go into sense making mode, you have

2234
01:42:36,156 --> 01:42:38,756
Speaker 1: to ask questions, right, and so just by the act

2235
01:42:38,756 --> 01:42:41,236
Speaker 1: of writing about whatever's going on, you can often go

2236
01:42:41,276 --> 01:42:43,916
Speaker 1: into question asking mode, which is sort of one of

2237
01:42:43,916 --> 01:42:47,156
Speaker 1: the fastest ways to get to curiosity.

2238
01:42:47,196 --> 01:42:52,716
Speaker 3: On the topic of noticing, isn't attention sort of the

2239
01:42:52,756 --> 01:42:53,836
Speaker 3: whole ballgame here?

2240
01:42:54,156 --> 01:42:54,476
Speaker 1: Totally?

2241
01:42:54,676 --> 01:42:58,756
Speaker 3: Like it really is a function of the extent to

2242
01:42:58,796 --> 01:43:02,956
Speaker 3: which you're mindful about where you're placing your attention. That's

2243
01:43:02,996 --> 01:43:07,876
Speaker 3: like the whole thing. So, whether it's curiosity, or your

2244
01:43:08,036 --> 01:43:11,796
Speaker 3: interactions with people out in the world, or your ability

2245
01:43:11,836 --> 01:43:14,756
Speaker 3: to notice something that could give you that moment of delight,

2246
01:43:14,916 --> 01:43:19,356
Speaker 3: it's all about being present with your own attention and

2247
01:43:19,716 --> 01:43:24,836
Speaker 3: not allowing it to randomly go where you know it's

2248
01:43:24,876 --> 01:43:28,516
Speaker 3: it's sort of impulse to go, but commandeering it in

2249
01:43:28,596 --> 01:43:29,476
Speaker 3: a conscious way.

2250
01:43:29,716 --> 01:43:32,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's hard, right, because we know that attention

2251
01:43:33,116 --> 01:43:35,796
Speaker 1: is very is We know that attentions like basically built

2252
01:43:35,796 --> 01:43:38,276
Speaker 1: to go where it's going to go. Right, if someone

2253
01:43:38,356 --> 01:43:41,636
Speaker 1: screamed fire right now in the studio, no matter how

2254
01:43:41,636 --> 01:43:45,756
Speaker 1: interesting a conversation we were having, it would steal our attention.

2255
01:43:46,476 --> 01:43:49,476
Speaker 1: And that kind of mode of commandeering attention is the

2256
01:43:49,476 --> 01:43:51,956
Speaker 1: thing we've built into all the devices that are around

2257
01:43:51,996 --> 01:43:54,076
Speaker 1: us all the time. Like there's so much built out

2258
01:43:54,076 --> 01:43:56,116
Speaker 1: there to steal our attention. Like it was already bad

2259
01:43:56,196 --> 01:43:58,556
Speaker 1: just having a human brain that just kind of get

2260
01:43:58,596 --> 01:44:01,156
Speaker 1: commandeered really easily, but now we have all these things

2261
01:44:01,156 --> 01:44:04,036
Speaker 1: around us that are trying to commandeer our attention, often

2262
01:44:04,076 --> 01:44:07,316
Speaker 1: for bad, right, because negativity is what makes algorithms lots

2263
01:44:07,356 --> 01:44:09,436
Speaker 1: of money, and so lots of folks are on us

2264
01:44:09,436 --> 01:44:12,356
Speaker 1: are trying to commander our attention towards the anti delights

2265
01:44:12,436 --> 01:44:14,956
Speaker 1: or the anti grateful things. But yeah, if you can

2266
01:44:14,996 --> 01:44:17,676
Speaker 1: develop the agency to harness your attention, and so much

2267
01:44:17,876 --> 01:44:20,036
Speaker 1: so much work in the field psychoho, do you suggest

2268
01:44:20,036 --> 01:44:22,076
Speaker 1: that you can do that just through training, right, just

2269
01:44:22,116 --> 01:44:25,356
Speaker 1: through practice and trying to notice certain things more through

2270
01:44:25,396 --> 01:44:29,676
Speaker 1: your intention for your attention, you can kind of gain

2271
01:44:29,756 --> 01:44:31,876
Speaker 1: agency over that and feel a lot better.

2272
01:44:32,916 --> 01:44:37,596
Speaker 3: What do you make of the mainstreaming or the degree

2273
01:44:37,636 --> 01:44:42,436
Speaker 3: of attention and interest there is now in the subject

2274
01:44:42,436 --> 01:44:45,156
Speaker 3: of happiness, Like this is sort of unprecedented in the

2275
01:44:45,276 --> 01:44:48,636
Speaker 3: history of humanity. And to me, it's sort of like

2276
01:44:48,676 --> 01:44:50,876
Speaker 3: you can look at it through two different lenses. On

2277
01:44:50,916 --> 01:44:53,236
Speaker 3: the one hand, you can say, well, this is just

2278
01:44:53,316 --> 01:44:57,796
Speaker 3: a byproduct of our metastasizing self obsession, right, like, you know,

2279
01:44:57,836 --> 01:45:00,836
Speaker 3: we're so caught up in our own selves and obsessed

2280
01:45:00,876 --> 01:45:03,996
Speaker 3: with our own degree of happiness, and this in and

2281
01:45:04,036 --> 01:45:07,836
Speaker 3: of itself is some form of disease, right, Or you

2282
01:45:07,876 --> 01:45:11,516
Speaker 3: can look at it as a symptom of the real disease,

2283
01:45:11,596 --> 01:45:15,436
Speaker 3: which is that we are suffering this, this epidemic of

2284
01:45:15,676 --> 01:45:20,156
Speaker 3: unhappiness and loneliness and disconnection and the like, and this

2285
01:45:20,236 --> 01:45:23,156
Speaker 3: is us raising our hand or you know, like asking

2286
01:45:23,156 --> 01:45:23,996
Speaker 3: to be rescued.

2287
01:45:24,196 --> 01:45:26,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well I guess a couple of things there.

2288
01:45:26,756 --> 01:45:29,996
Speaker 1: One is that I think we are obsessed with happiness now,

2289
01:45:30,036 --> 01:45:32,316
Speaker 1: but we as a species have always been obsessed with happiness.

2290
01:45:32,316 --> 01:45:34,556
Speaker 1: We've been obsessed with happiness since we were a species

2291
01:45:34,556 --> 01:45:36,876
Speaker 1: that could think about happiness. I mean, look at the ancients.

2292
01:45:36,916 --> 01:45:39,396
Speaker 1: That was all they talked about was trying to live

2293
01:45:39,396 --> 01:45:41,316
Speaker 1: the good life, and you Diaminia, and how do we

2294
01:45:41,356 --> 01:45:43,956
Speaker 1: get there and create the right habits. You'll look at

2295
01:45:43,956 --> 01:45:46,036
Speaker 1: the founders of the country, which you know, even in

2296
01:45:46,076 --> 01:45:48,436
Speaker 1: the Declaration of Independence could have written like, you know,

2297
01:45:48,516 --> 01:45:51,276
Speaker 1: here's what we want, like life, liberty and the pursuit

2298
01:45:51,316 --> 01:45:56,356
Speaker 1: of happiness, right living like longevity fright in the document.

2299
01:45:55,476 --> 01:45:58,436
Speaker 1: And there's actually a really interesting history if you look

2300
01:45:58,476 --> 01:46:01,676
Speaker 1: at the original document. They went through different versions, is

2301
01:46:01,756 --> 01:46:04,596
Speaker 1: like life liberty, and then they decided on happiness, which

2302
01:46:04,596 --> 01:46:05,996
Speaker 1: is sort of interesting and it's all right, But the

2303
01:46:05,996 --> 01:46:07,356
Speaker 1: point is that like what was it was?

2304
01:46:07,396 --> 01:46:09,556
Speaker 3: It was there something in how they yea, it was

2305
01:46:09,596 --> 01:46:10,516
Speaker 3: like it's.

2306
01:46:10,436 --> 01:46:12,156
Speaker 1: Hard to know, but I think it was like do

2307
01:46:12,196 --> 01:46:14,196
Speaker 1: we want that in there? It was an interesting debate

2308
01:46:14,236 --> 01:46:15,916
Speaker 1: about putting that in there, so it was interesting. But

2309
01:46:15,996 --> 01:46:18,196
Speaker 1: the point is, like even old school they were thinking

2310
01:46:18,196 --> 01:46:21,516
Speaker 1: about this, So I think we've always cared about it. However,

2311
01:46:22,316 --> 01:46:24,756
Speaker 1: I do think we're more off track than ever, right,

2312
01:46:24,836 --> 01:46:28,076
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we have cultural patterns that are

2313
01:46:28,236 --> 01:46:30,196
Speaker 1: actively leading us in the wrong way. You know, we

2314
01:46:30,196 --> 01:46:32,916
Speaker 1: were joking about TikTok and being a little facetious, but

2315
01:46:33,036 --> 01:46:35,156
Speaker 1: I think you know, we mean something like the culture

2316
01:46:35,156 --> 01:46:38,316
Speaker 1: apparatus that we surround ourselves with that's easily stealing our attention,

2317
01:46:38,836 --> 01:46:40,796
Speaker 1: is telling us all the wrong things to do right,

2318
01:46:40,876 --> 01:46:43,276
Speaker 1: go for money, go for status, just buy something, change

2319
01:46:43,276 --> 01:46:45,876
Speaker 1: your circumstances. You'll feel happier. And what we know is

2320
01:46:45,916 --> 01:46:48,476
Speaker 1: like those are wrong. And so I think the interest

2321
01:46:48,556 --> 01:46:50,436
Speaker 1: we have now is in part because we're kind of

2322
01:46:50,516 --> 01:46:52,956
Speaker 1: raising our hands and saying help, we're doing it wrong.

2323
01:46:53,356 --> 01:46:56,196
Speaker 1: But I think it's also because we how could we

2324
01:46:56,276 --> 01:46:57,956
Speaker 1: not be doing it wrong when there's so many other

2325
01:46:57,996 --> 01:47:00,156
Speaker 1: influences that are pushing us in the wrong direction.

2326
01:47:01,636 --> 01:47:06,556
Speaker 3: Our digital devices are proxies for social connection, and we

2327
01:47:06,636 --> 01:47:11,836
Speaker 3: believe that it is making us closer to all these people,

2328
01:47:12,076 --> 01:47:17,196
Speaker 3: and we're not really conscious of the extent to which

2329
01:47:17,356 --> 01:47:20,916
Speaker 3: it's actually isolating us more and more and more. Like

2330
01:47:20,996 --> 01:47:24,836
Speaker 3: it's very effective convincing us that we're in touch with

2331
01:47:24,876 --> 01:47:26,876
Speaker 3: all these people and we know what they're doing, and

2332
01:47:26,916 --> 01:47:30,676
Speaker 3: it feels like one big community, even if we're prone

2333
01:47:30,716 --> 01:47:33,276
Speaker 3: to comparison, and you know, we're a victim of the

2334
01:47:33,316 --> 01:47:37,676
Speaker 3: algorithm and the like short of turn your phone off,

2335
01:47:38,356 --> 01:47:41,036
Speaker 3: do a digital detox, don't bring it in, like all

2336
01:47:41,036 --> 01:47:43,476
Speaker 3: the sort of stuff we know, right, Like, what is

2337
01:47:43,516 --> 01:47:46,516
Speaker 3: the council that you give to your students and talk

2338
01:47:46,516 --> 01:47:50,636
Speaker 3: about more broadly with respect to how we navigate our

2339
01:47:50,676 --> 01:47:52,196
Speaker 3: digital age in a healthier way.

2340
01:47:52,356 --> 01:47:55,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's worth noting that technology

2341
01:47:55,756 --> 01:47:57,436
Speaker 1: is just a tool. Right. It's a tool that we

2342
01:47:57,476 --> 01:47:59,716
Speaker 1: could use in positively, is right, which I think we

2343
01:47:59,796 --> 01:48:01,916
Speaker 1: all saw during the pandemic, Right, I don't know about

2344
01:48:01,996 --> 01:48:05,836
Speaker 1: you're like zoom Thanksgiving, like you know, pilates glasses with

2345
01:48:05,876 --> 01:48:08,476
Speaker 1: friends of mine, right, Like, it's we can use this

2346
01:48:08,556 --> 01:48:12,156
Speaker 1: to really get connection, especially when we're feeling isolated. You know,

2347
01:48:12,236 --> 01:48:14,556
Speaker 1: communities that you know you're the one person who cares

2348
01:48:14,596 --> 01:48:16,236
Speaker 1: about this thing, and now you can connect with others

2349
01:48:16,276 --> 01:48:18,316
Speaker 1: who care about that same thing and have that sense

2350
01:48:18,356 --> 01:48:20,036
Speaker 1: of little be purpose. I think there's lots of things

2351
01:48:20,036 --> 01:48:23,516
Speaker 1: we can do positively with technology, but you're right, a

2352
01:48:23,516 --> 01:48:25,756
Speaker 1: lot of things we actually do with technology is like

2353
01:48:25,876 --> 01:48:28,396
Speaker 1: leading us astray. It's leading us away from social connection.

2354
01:48:28,916 --> 01:48:30,276
Speaker 1: But we don't want to get rid of it, right,

2355
01:48:30,316 --> 01:48:33,316
Speaker 1: because it does have these positives. And so the strategy

2356
01:48:33,356 --> 01:48:37,316
Speaker 1: I suggest to my students is is this strategy of attending, noticing,

2357
01:48:37,396 --> 01:48:39,956
Speaker 1: getting curious again. Right, what are the parts of this

2358
01:48:40,036 --> 01:48:41,716
Speaker 1: that are feeling good and what are the parts of

2359
01:48:41,756 --> 01:48:45,116
Speaker 1: this that are maybe leading me astray? And I like

2360
01:48:45,116 --> 01:48:47,156
Speaker 1: like shortcuts to do this because it's hard to do

2361
01:48:47,196 --> 01:48:48,876
Speaker 1: this in the abstract. And one of the ones I

2362
01:48:48,956 --> 01:48:51,396
Speaker 1: share with my students comes from the journalist Catherine Price

2363
01:48:51,556 --> 01:48:53,676
Speaker 1: was this lovely book called How to Break Up with

2364
01:48:53,716 --> 01:48:55,796
Speaker 1: Your Phone, where she argues that you don't really need

2365
01:48:55,796 --> 01:48:57,036
Speaker 1: to break up with your phone, but you need to

2366
01:48:57,036 --> 01:48:59,676
Speaker 1: take it to like couples counseling you can develop like

2367
01:49:00,036 --> 01:49:02,516
Speaker 1: maybe like a hell of relationship with it. And she

2368
01:49:02,636 --> 01:49:06,316
Speaker 1: has this acronym she uses called www, which is funny

2369
01:49:06,316 --> 01:49:08,316
Speaker 1: because you know world Wide Web, but in her case

2370
01:49:08,396 --> 01:49:12,236
Speaker 1: WWW stands for what for? Why now? And what else?

2371
01:49:12,756 --> 01:49:13,196
Speaker 3: Jerke is it?

2372
01:49:13,236 --> 01:49:15,796
Speaker 1: Whenever you find yourself kind of engaging with technology, you

2373
01:49:15,796 --> 01:49:18,396
Speaker 1: should ask this question, what for was I picking my

2374
01:49:18,436 --> 01:49:20,356
Speaker 1: phone up for? Maybe I was checking my email, looking

2375
01:49:20,396 --> 01:49:22,716
Speaker 1: at the weather. Maybe I don't even know what it like,

2376
01:49:22,756 --> 01:49:24,556
Speaker 1: I'm just in some Reddit rabbit hole and I have

2377
01:49:24,556 --> 01:49:25,476
Speaker 1: no idea how I got here.

2378
01:49:25,556 --> 01:49:27,516
Speaker 3: Or you're just standing in line at the grocery store

2379
01:49:27,636 --> 01:49:30,196
Speaker 3: and you don't want to have to be alone with

2380
01:49:30,236 --> 01:49:32,076
Speaker 3: your thoughts for an instant.

2381
01:49:31,876 --> 01:49:34,236
Speaker 1: Exactly, and Then that gets to the second question, why

2382
01:49:34,316 --> 01:49:36,996
Speaker 1: now right? What was the trigger? I was feeling lonely,

2383
01:49:37,116 --> 01:49:39,996
Speaker 1: I was feeling anxious, I was feeling socially avoidant right,

2384
01:49:40,036 --> 01:49:43,636
Speaker 1: Like what was your being curious about? What was the trigger?

2385
01:49:43,836 --> 01:49:46,676
Speaker 1: Often an emotional trigger or situational trigger that caused you

2386
01:49:46,716 --> 01:49:49,436
Speaker 1: to get on it. And the final question, what else?

2387
01:49:49,596 --> 01:49:51,556
Speaker 1: What else could you be doing right now? Maybe in

2388
01:49:51,596 --> 01:49:53,716
Speaker 1: that grocery line you could talk to a friend in

2389
01:49:53,756 --> 01:49:56,356
Speaker 1: the grocery line, or text someone and check in. Maybe

2390
01:49:56,356 --> 01:49:58,396
Speaker 1: you could do just a couple of deep breaths right, like,

2391
01:49:58,796 --> 01:50:01,796
Speaker 1: you know, there's notice the world around you, Notice that

2392
01:50:01,836 --> 01:50:04,116
Speaker 1: guy who's you know, playing the cypress hill or whatever?

2393
01:50:04,236 --> 01:50:06,876
Speaker 1: Like what's the opportunity cost of being on your phone

2394
01:50:06,916 --> 01:50:09,916
Speaker 1: right now? And I like this WWW technique? What for?

2395
01:50:10,076 --> 01:50:12,796
Speaker 1: Why now? What else? Because it doesn't say digital detalks,

2396
01:50:12,876 --> 01:50:15,436
Speaker 1: get off your phone, like it just causes you to

2397
01:50:15,516 --> 01:50:18,556
Speaker 1: notice your own patterns, like, oh, whenever I'm being socially

2398
01:50:18,556 --> 01:50:20,636
Speaker 1: avoided at a party, I look at my phone, or

2399
01:50:20,676 --> 01:50:23,596
Speaker 1: I go to this whenever I'm anxious or what else?

2400
01:50:24,036 --> 01:50:26,076
Speaker 1: I haven't noticed that it's springtime out because I've just

2401
01:50:26,156 --> 01:50:27,996
Speaker 1: been staring at my phone the whole time. Right. It's

2402
01:50:28,276 --> 01:50:30,516
Speaker 1: it allows you to get curious about the things you're

2403
01:50:30,596 --> 01:50:33,516
Speaker 1: using your phone for and when you're using it, and

2404
01:50:33,556 --> 01:50:36,116
Speaker 1: what's the cost, and you can ask are those things

2405
01:50:36,156 --> 01:50:36,756
Speaker 1: worth it for me?

2406
01:50:36,876 --> 01:50:41,676
Speaker 3: Right? It's a way of applying your curiosity. But you're

2407
01:50:41,716 --> 01:50:45,076
Speaker 3: certainly not going to find moments of delight on wonder

2408
01:50:45,396 --> 01:50:46,796
Speaker 3: if you're looking at your phone.

2409
01:50:47,076 --> 01:50:50,756
Speaker 1: Sometimes you do, I mean there's a lot of like, yeah,

2410
01:50:51,996 --> 01:50:54,516
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying. That, like the analogy I

2411
01:50:54,596 --> 01:50:56,876
Speaker 1: like to use and a and it gets back to

2412
01:50:56,916 --> 01:51:00,116
Speaker 1: the nutrition stuff is like I think oftentimes we get

2413
01:51:00,116 --> 01:51:03,116
Speaker 1: the sort of nutrisity of social connection online right where

2414
01:51:03,116 --> 01:51:05,396
Speaker 1: it's like feels like I connected because I scrolled through

2415
01:51:05,396 --> 01:51:08,596
Speaker 1: my Instagram feed and saw everyone's doing. It's not really nutritious.

2416
01:51:08,596 --> 01:51:11,036
Speaker 1: Schocial can so like it's kind of like drinking the

2417
01:51:11,076 --> 01:51:13,516
Speaker 1: diet coke, like it satisfies the sugartoos, but like it

2418
01:51:13,556 --> 01:51:16,236
Speaker 1: doesn't and it has these kind of downstream consequences because

2419
01:51:16,236 --> 01:51:18,796
Speaker 1: it's not nutritious. I think the same thing is true

2420
01:51:18,836 --> 01:51:21,956
Speaker 1: for our kind of social connection psychology. It overcomes a

2421
01:51:21,996 --> 01:51:24,156
Speaker 1: little social friction, like we kind of get to it

2422
01:51:24,196 --> 01:51:26,796
Speaker 1: easier than like maybe talking to a friend or texting someone.

2423
01:51:27,636 --> 01:51:31,196
Speaker 1: But I think that ease uh is mistake. We kind

2424
01:51:31,236 --> 01:51:33,116
Speaker 1: of mistake it for something that's going to feel really

2425
01:51:33,156 --> 01:51:35,436
Speaker 1: good ultimately psychologically, and it sort of doesn't.

2426
01:51:37,156 --> 01:51:42,796
Speaker 3: Happiness is a byproduct of welcoming into your life all

2427
01:51:42,796 --> 01:51:45,316
Speaker 3: of these things that we've been talking about. It is

2428
01:51:45,356 --> 01:51:49,036
Speaker 3: not the aim. It's not something you chase, right, It's

2429
01:51:49,076 --> 01:51:51,836
Speaker 3: a consequence of doing all of these things. Where we

2430
01:51:51,876 --> 01:51:55,036
Speaker 3: place our attention. What is our curiosity? Like, are we

2431
01:51:55,516 --> 01:51:57,436
Speaker 3: going out of our way to be connected to the

2432
01:51:57,436 --> 01:51:59,716
Speaker 3: people we care about? Are we meeting new people all

2433
01:51:59,716 --> 01:52:04,396
Speaker 3: the like? But do you think that there are still

2434
01:52:04,796 --> 01:52:09,236
Speaker 3: many many people out there who are pursuing happiness in

2435
01:52:09,276 --> 01:52:15,076
Speaker 3: a wrong headed way such that this pursuit becomes a

2436
01:52:15,116 --> 01:52:18,996
Speaker 3: barrier to happiness, Like because it is such a mainstream phenomenon,

2437
01:52:19,036 --> 01:52:21,636
Speaker 3: and there's so many books and so many experts like yourself,

2438
01:52:21,676 --> 01:52:24,196
Speaker 3: and we're talking about it, and you know, you're on

2439
01:52:24,236 --> 01:52:30,116
Speaker 3: the Today Show and in our collective consciousness, like, happiness

2440
01:52:30,156 --> 01:52:32,516
Speaker 3: is something we're thinking a lot about and we're trying

2441
01:52:32,596 --> 01:52:36,116
Speaker 3: to get more of. But if we're chasing it, we're

2442
01:52:36,156 --> 01:52:38,076
Speaker 3: getting in the way of it. Yeah, I guess is

2443
01:52:38,116 --> 01:52:38,836
Speaker 3: what I'm getting at.

2444
01:52:38,996 --> 01:52:42,436
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for whatever reason we engage with these habits,

2445
01:52:42,916 --> 01:52:45,236
Speaker 1: many of them will work. You know, if I'm engaging

2446
01:52:45,236 --> 01:52:47,236
Speaker 1: in social connection now because I really want to connect

2447
01:52:47,236 --> 01:52:48,716
Speaker 1: with this person, because I'm like, I'll get my little

2448
01:52:48,716 --> 01:52:51,316
Speaker 1: happiness boost, I might still get the happiness boost, right,

2449
01:52:51,956 --> 01:52:53,956
Speaker 1: you know, the same doing nice things for others. You know,

2450
01:52:53,996 --> 01:52:55,596
Speaker 1: I might do it because like, well Laurie says to

2451
01:52:55,636 --> 01:52:57,516
Speaker 1: do it, and then you'll feel happier, but you still,

2452
01:52:57,876 --> 01:53:00,436
Speaker 1: as you noticed yourself, you still get the benefit. I

2453
01:53:00,476 --> 01:53:03,276
Speaker 1: think where we go wrong is that when we go

2454
01:53:03,316 --> 01:53:06,836
Speaker 1: after pursuing happiness, we do it in a very perfectionist,

2455
01:53:07,436 --> 01:53:11,036
Speaker 1: very self critical way. I almost happy right now, and I'm

2456
01:53:11,036 --> 01:53:13,636
Speaker 1: gonna not do normal baby steps and you know, take

2457
01:53:13,636 --> 01:53:15,316
Speaker 1: it a little, you know, day by day, I'm going

2458
01:53:15,356 --> 01:53:17,436
Speaker 1: to do it all right now. And then we wind

2459
01:53:17,476 --> 01:53:20,116
Speaker 1: up disappointing ourselves. We wind up feeling crappy about it.

2460
01:53:20,276 --> 01:53:22,356
Speaker 1: It winds up becoming a chore, it's another thing on

2461
01:53:22,356 --> 01:53:24,916
Speaker 1: the to do list. It makes us feel overwhelmed, right,

2462
01:53:25,396 --> 01:53:27,796
Speaker 1: and I think that's not helping anyone, right. There are

2463
01:53:27,836 --> 01:53:30,156
Speaker 1: a lot of good things that we could do for ourselves,

2464
01:53:30,196 --> 01:53:33,076
Speaker 1: from you know, eating healthier, to fitness to whatever pursuit

2465
01:53:33,116 --> 01:53:35,916
Speaker 1: you want to engage in, that like will feel good

2466
01:53:35,996 --> 01:53:39,756
Speaker 1: if you do it in a self compassionate kind reasonable way,

2467
01:53:40,036 --> 01:53:41,876
Speaker 1: and we'll feel really terrible if you do it in

2468
01:53:41,876 --> 01:53:44,396
Speaker 1: a like a perfectionist, self critical has to be perfect

2469
01:53:44,436 --> 01:53:46,276
Speaker 1: kind of way. And I think one of the problems

2470
01:53:46,276 --> 01:53:49,316
Speaker 1: with pursuing happiness is people get into that mindset. I'll

2471
01:53:49,316 --> 01:53:52,036
Speaker 1: often get the question hafter to talk is like, well,

2472
01:53:52,036 --> 01:53:53,276
Speaker 1: you mentioned all these things, what's the thing I can

2473
01:53:53,316 --> 01:53:54,596
Speaker 1: do right now to do it? Like, I just want

2474
01:53:54,596 --> 01:53:56,676
Speaker 1: to do the one thing. It's like, okay, we're already

2475
01:53:56,716 --> 01:54:00,196
Speaker 1: like a yeah, maybe we want to do.

2476
01:54:00,116 --> 01:54:03,796
Speaker 3: It's in the Declaration of Independence. Shit.

2477
01:54:04,316 --> 01:54:06,516
Speaker 1: But it's the how of the pursuit. You know. There's

2478
01:54:07,076 --> 01:54:09,676
Speaker 1: things we can pursue for the journey of it, for

2479
01:54:09,756 --> 01:54:11,956
Speaker 1: the growth of it, for noticing that stuff, and there's

2480
01:54:11,996 --> 01:54:13,556
Speaker 1: things that we can pursue. Were like, if I don't

2481
01:54:13,556 --> 01:54:15,876
Speaker 1: get this right by Thursday, I'm like a loser, and

2482
01:54:16,476 --> 01:54:18,836
Speaker 1: we just get out of get out of the loser mindset, right.

2483
01:54:19,156 --> 01:54:22,636
Speaker 1: We need to recognize that a way to motivate ourselves

2484
01:54:22,676 --> 01:54:25,316
Speaker 1: for anything, whether it's pursuing happiness or any of your pursuits,

2485
01:54:25,476 --> 01:54:28,196
Speaker 1: A healthier way to do that is through self compassion, right,

2486
01:54:28,436 --> 01:54:30,836
Speaker 1: kind of noticing this is a challenge, This is tough,

2487
01:54:31,036 --> 01:54:34,316
Speaker 1: recognizing your common humanity, I'm just human, and talking to

2488
01:54:34,356 --> 01:54:36,916
Speaker 1: yourself in a kind way. Those are the paths to

2489
01:54:36,956 --> 01:54:38,996
Speaker 1: achieving so much of the stuff we want to achieve.

2490
01:54:39,196 --> 01:54:41,116
Speaker 1: I think where we get happiness wrong isn't that we're

2491
01:54:41,156 --> 01:54:43,556
Speaker 1: going after it. I think again, it's just built in.

2492
01:54:43,636 --> 01:54:44,836
Speaker 1: We're going to want to go out. We're going to

2493
01:54:44,876 --> 01:54:47,116
Speaker 1: want to have a flourishing life, most of us. But

2494
01:54:47,276 --> 01:54:49,436
Speaker 1: like if we go after that flourishing life in this

2495
01:54:49,636 --> 01:54:51,916
Speaker 1: like way doesn't work.

2496
01:54:51,996 --> 01:54:54,596
Speaker 3: The person who's clutching onto it and he's like, tell

2497
01:54:54,636 --> 01:54:56,476
Speaker 3: me the thing I need to have it now, it's

2498
01:54:56,476 --> 01:54:59,236
Speaker 3: sort of like asking a fish, how's the water? Like,

2499
01:54:59,356 --> 01:55:02,036
Speaker 3: that's the problem, that's sort of the barrier.

2500
01:55:02,156 --> 01:55:02,316
Speaker 1: Right.

2501
01:55:02,356 --> 01:55:05,956
Speaker 3: You have to emerge out of that mindset and that

2502
01:55:06,436 --> 01:55:07,956
Speaker 3: bubble and find a different way.

2503
01:55:08,116 --> 01:55:10,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you know, when you really tackle

2504
01:55:10,516 --> 01:55:13,196
Speaker 1: the principles and understand the principles better, that comes a

2505
01:55:13,196 --> 01:55:16,316
Speaker 1: little bit more naturally, right. You learn these strategies for

2506
01:55:16,356 --> 01:55:18,236
Speaker 1: self talk that are a little bit healthier. You learn

2507
01:55:18,276 --> 01:55:19,996
Speaker 1: to be more other oriented, rice you get out of

2508
01:55:19,996 --> 01:55:23,196
Speaker 1: this individual pursuit, and you kind of develop these notions

2509
01:55:23,236 --> 01:55:25,436
Speaker 1: of wanting to do nice things for others for the

2510
01:55:25,476 --> 01:55:27,956
Speaker 1: sake of doing nice things for others. I think what's

2511
01:55:27,996 --> 01:55:31,396
Speaker 1: interesting is if you start going after this stuff, you

2512
01:55:31,436 --> 01:55:33,636
Speaker 1: find it rewarding and it gets easier to do it,

2513
01:55:33,716 --> 01:55:35,716
Speaker 1: not in a like groupy half new way, but in

2514
01:55:35,756 --> 01:55:38,116
Speaker 1: a kind of more measured, self compassionate way.

2515
01:55:39,116 --> 01:55:42,956
Speaker 3: Are you a happier person now than when you started

2516
01:55:43,316 --> 01:55:44,076
Speaker 3: lecturing on this?

2517
01:55:44,196 --> 01:55:46,316
Speaker 1: Oh? For sure. I mean I'm a nerd. I take data,

2518
01:55:46,316 --> 01:55:49,756
Speaker 1: you know, I do my little psychometric happiness tests all

2519
01:55:49,796 --> 01:55:50,316
Speaker 1: the time.

2520
01:55:50,196 --> 01:55:51,876
Speaker 3: And it would be so tragic if you weren't.

2521
01:55:52,116 --> 01:55:53,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I'll see it.

2522
01:55:53,356 --> 01:55:54,556
Speaker 3: Or if you had to lie about it.

2523
01:55:54,876 --> 01:55:57,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so much happier. No, no, I I you know,

2524
01:55:58,116 --> 01:56:00,196
Speaker 1: true to this idea of ten percent happier, I'm about

2525
01:56:00,196 --> 01:56:01,796
Speaker 1: a point to a point and a half happier on

2526
01:56:01,836 --> 01:56:04,876
Speaker 1: a standard happiness test than I was when I started this.

2527
01:56:05,396 --> 01:56:08,196
Speaker 1: But I will say something interesting, which is, with the

2528
01:56:08,236 --> 01:56:11,196
Speaker 1: interesting meaning and purpose and amazing privilege of being able

2529
01:56:11,236 --> 01:56:14,076
Speaker 1: to do this, comes a lot more happiness challenges. Right.

2530
01:56:14,116 --> 01:56:17,796
Speaker 1: If I'm not careful, I can have so many guest

2531
01:56:17,796 --> 01:56:20,436
Speaker 1: appearances like this opportunities for travel, that will take away

2532
01:56:20,476 --> 01:56:22,996
Speaker 1: my social connection, that'll take away my sleep, that'll take

2533
01:56:22,996 --> 01:56:26,196
Speaker 1: me from my movement routine if I'm not careful, and

2534
01:56:26,436 --> 01:56:28,436
Speaker 1: so I have to push against that. I get to

2535
01:56:28,476 --> 01:56:30,836
Speaker 1: see a lot more unhappy people. That gives me some

2536
01:56:30,956 --> 01:56:33,876
Speaker 1: challenges with negative emotions. Right when you know about this stuff,

2537
01:56:33,876 --> 01:56:36,956
Speaker 1: you're put in situations where people need this stuff and

2538
01:56:36,996 --> 01:56:39,636
Speaker 1: you really see the full gamut of human emotion, and

2539
01:56:39,676 --> 01:56:42,156
Speaker 1: that can be really tough. And so I think, even

2540
01:56:42,156 --> 01:56:44,476
Speaker 1: though I have these strategies I can use to feel better,

2541
01:56:44,516 --> 01:56:47,036
Speaker 1: it's also brought with it, like many good things in life,

2542
01:56:47,076 --> 01:56:49,276
Speaker 1: lots of challenges. And so it means that I have

2543
01:56:49,356 --> 01:56:51,516
Speaker 1: to practice what I preach, maybe even more now than

2544
01:56:51,556 --> 01:56:53,436
Speaker 1: I was before I was doing this work.

2545
01:56:53,876 --> 01:56:58,676
Speaker 3: Being really clear on your nose and your yes is yeah,

2546
01:56:58,836 --> 01:57:01,316
Speaker 3: when to say yes and more importantly when to say no,

2547
01:57:02,116 --> 01:57:05,636
Speaker 3: and how to have clear boundaries. What was like the

2548
01:57:06,116 --> 01:57:11,076
Speaker 3: biggest epiphany or shift that you made as a result

2549
01:57:11,116 --> 01:57:13,796
Speaker 3: of this experience in the research and everything that you've

2550
01:57:13,876 --> 01:57:16,356
Speaker 3: learned that made the biggest difference in your life.

2551
01:57:16,516 --> 01:57:18,756
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, a big one is maybe a happiness strategy

2552
01:57:18,796 --> 01:57:21,156
Speaker 1: we haven't mentioned yet, which is this idea of time

2553
01:57:21,236 --> 01:57:23,836
Speaker 1: affluence that one of the things we need to feel

2554
01:57:23,836 --> 01:57:26,556
Speaker 1: happier is to be wealthy, not with money in our finances,

2555
01:57:26,596 --> 01:57:27,756
Speaker 1: but to be wealthy in time.

2556
01:57:28,316 --> 01:57:30,876
Speaker 3: I have none of this, I know already as get it.

2557
01:57:31,636 --> 01:57:34,516
Speaker 1: Most of us self report being time famished, which is

2558
01:57:34,556 --> 01:57:37,356
Speaker 1: like literally starving for time, and the physiology of this

2559
01:57:37,436 --> 01:57:40,036
Speaker 1: when you look is very similar to being tied. You know,

2560
01:57:40,116 --> 01:57:42,556
Speaker 1: it's inflammation, it's stressed, it's all this stuff. This is

2561
01:57:42,596 --> 01:57:44,556
Speaker 1: worked by Ashley Willian's at Harvard Business School. If you

2562
01:57:44,556 --> 01:57:47,596
Speaker 1: self report being time famished a lot, that's as bad

2563
01:57:47,636 --> 01:57:50,076
Speaker 1: for your well being as if you self report being unemployed.

2564
01:57:50,196 --> 01:57:52,996
Speaker 1: You probably would be sad if you lost your job tomorrow.

2565
01:57:53,036 --> 01:57:54,796
Speaker 1: Your listeners would be sad if they lost their job.

2566
01:57:54,956 --> 01:57:57,956
Speaker 1: Just not have any time? Is this bad? This work

2567
01:57:57,996 --> 01:58:01,356
Speaker 1: was an epiphany for me, both because as a professor, podcaster,

2568
01:58:01,516 --> 01:58:03,916
Speaker 1: as a human in the modern age, I'm busier than

2569
01:58:03,956 --> 01:58:07,436
Speaker 1: I should be, but especially because this new found path

2570
01:58:07,476 --> 01:58:09,516
Speaker 1: that I'm on have given me so many opportunity where

2571
01:58:09,516 --> 01:58:12,636
Speaker 1: if I don't set really hard boundaries, ones that I

2572
01:58:12,676 --> 01:58:15,676
Speaker 1: like hate, I'm never going to be able to have

2573
01:58:15,716 --> 01:58:19,836
Speaker 1: any time affluence. So that does that come up?

2574
01:58:19,956 --> 01:58:22,276
Speaker 3: Because you have a history of being a people pleaser.

2575
01:58:22,356 --> 01:58:26,436
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, just confirming, yeah yeah. And I

2576
01:58:26,476 --> 01:58:29,076
Speaker 1: think because you know, the hardest times to set time

2577
01:58:29,076 --> 01:58:32,476
Speaker 1: affluence are like when there's really good opportunities, and I

2578
01:58:32,476 --> 01:58:35,156
Speaker 1: think for a lot of the you know, interesting people

2579
01:58:35,196 --> 01:58:37,676
Speaker 1: with interesting jobs, interesting opportunities that are listening to this,

2580
01:58:38,236 --> 01:58:39,836
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to say no. Not just to the

2581
01:58:39,876 --> 01:58:41,716
Speaker 1: stuff you don't want to do that feels like kind

2582
01:58:41,716 --> 01:58:43,236
Speaker 1: of crappy, you're gonna have to say no to the

2583
01:58:43,276 --> 01:58:45,916
Speaker 1: stuff you really do want to do to leave space

2584
01:58:45,956 --> 01:58:47,996
Speaker 1: for the time to stuff that really matters.

2585
01:58:47,676 --> 01:58:50,396
Speaker 3: Which are kind of the fruits of your labor. Like

2586
01:58:50,476 --> 01:58:52,556
Speaker 3: you work so hard and now you're in this position

2587
01:58:52,596 --> 01:58:56,036
Speaker 3: where you get invited to do really cool stuff with

2588
01:58:56,116 --> 01:58:59,196
Speaker 3: cool people, and after all of that work to get

2589
01:58:59,236 --> 01:59:02,556
Speaker 3: to this place, you have to say no. Yeah, yeah,

2590
01:59:02,636 --> 01:59:04,996
Speaker 3: crimeing a river. But you know, it is it is

2591
01:59:05,036 --> 01:59:07,636
Speaker 3: like a it's it's it's tough to do that.

2592
01:59:07,996 --> 01:59:11,876
Speaker 1: I think it's tough, and it's tough to realize that

2593
01:59:11,876 --> 01:59:14,396
Speaker 1: that open space, that open time is going to be

2594
01:59:14,436 --> 01:59:16,716
Speaker 1: more valuable than whatever you could get out of these things.

2595
01:59:16,716 --> 01:59:18,236
Speaker 1: I think for us being.

2596
01:59:18,036 --> 01:59:19,836
Speaker 3: Clear on those values and what's.

2597
01:59:19,716 --> 01:59:22,756
Speaker 1: Important exactly and not falling prey to all the biases

2598
01:59:22,836 --> 01:59:25,316
Speaker 1: we just talked about, right, I think a big kind

2599
01:59:25,356 --> 01:59:27,156
Speaker 1: of trade off that people have to make is time

2600
01:59:27,196 --> 01:59:28,876
Speaker 1: and money. Right, I could spend a little bit more

2601
01:59:28,916 --> 01:59:30,836
Speaker 1: time at work, maybe I don't take my vacation time,

2602
01:59:30,836 --> 01:59:32,916
Speaker 1: and I get that promotion, or I get some overtime.

2603
01:59:32,956 --> 01:59:35,916
Speaker 1: I get these things. And again, if you have enough

2604
01:59:35,916 --> 01:59:37,596
Speaker 1: money to put roof over your head, if you like,

2605
01:59:37,636 --> 01:59:39,676
Speaker 1: if you're in the sort of threshold where more money

2606
01:59:39,716 --> 01:59:41,916
Speaker 1: is not going to make you happy, more time really

2607
01:59:41,956 --> 01:59:45,036
Speaker 1: will make you happy. So Ashley Willans finds that one

2608
01:59:45,076 --> 01:59:47,196
Speaker 1: thing you can do to improve your time affluence is

2609
01:59:47,236 --> 01:59:50,956
Speaker 1: to spend any discretionary income you have on getting time back, right,

2610
01:59:51,316 --> 01:59:54,076
Speaker 1: you know, get the chopped up vegetables, get the healthy takeout,

2611
01:59:54,196 --> 01:59:56,516
Speaker 1: hire the neighbor's kid to mow the lawn. Whatever it

2612
01:59:56,636 --> 02:00:00,596
Speaker 1: is to free up time that actually makes you happier

2613
02:00:00,636 --> 02:00:03,476
Speaker 1: than spending your discretionary and come on stuff or even

2614
02:00:03,516 --> 02:00:04,956
Speaker 1: in some cases experiences.

2615
02:00:06,036 --> 02:00:13,516
Speaker 3: There's a piece within this subject of time affluence that

2616
02:00:13,636 --> 02:00:17,876
Speaker 3: has to do with deferred happiness. Like I don't have

2617
02:00:17,916 --> 02:00:21,356
Speaker 3: a lot of time affluence right now, but it's because

2618
02:00:21,596 --> 02:00:23,716
Speaker 3: I'm in this phase of life, and I need to

2619
02:00:23,756 --> 02:00:27,636
Speaker 3: do these things, and I am going to defer my

2620
02:00:27,756 --> 02:00:30,156
Speaker 3: happiness and all these things that I know because I,

2621
02:00:30,436 --> 02:00:32,756
Speaker 3: you know, pay attention to Laurie and everything that she says,

2622
02:00:33,156 --> 02:00:35,396
Speaker 3: and I get it and I agree. But it's just

2623
02:00:35,436 --> 02:00:38,636
Speaker 3: going to sit over here for a while and I

2624
02:00:38,676 --> 02:00:41,796
Speaker 3: will indulge it at the appropriate time, So you hold

2625
02:00:41,836 --> 02:00:45,996
Speaker 3: it in abeyance versus like the time is now and

2626
02:00:46,036 --> 02:00:49,676
Speaker 3: your life is happening now, and you know, I fall

2627
02:00:49,716 --> 02:00:53,836
Speaker 3: into that. So how do you disabuse people of that mindset?

2628
02:00:53,956 --> 02:00:55,836
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think having the terms for some of these

2629
02:00:55,836 --> 02:00:57,836
Speaker 1: things can be so helpful. I think often we worry

2630
02:00:57,876 --> 02:01:01,676
Speaker 1: about what researchers call myopia, right, which is like, you know,

2631
02:01:01,996 --> 02:01:05,276
Speaker 1: eat unhealthy now, you know, because like you'll start your

2632
02:01:05,276 --> 02:01:07,596
Speaker 1: workout tomorrow kind of thing. We kind of are indulging

2633
02:01:07,676 --> 02:01:10,276
Speaker 1: now because we're myopic or like not taking care of

2634
02:01:10,276 --> 02:01:13,356
Speaker 1: our future self. That does happen, of course, But I

2635
02:01:13,436 --> 02:01:15,916
Speaker 1: worry much more about the opposite, which is what folks

2636
02:01:15,916 --> 02:01:19,796
Speaker 1: call hyperopia, which is like I'll have my rewards in

2637
02:01:19,836 --> 02:01:21,876
Speaker 1: the future, I'll just work really hard right now, and

2638
02:01:21,916 --> 02:01:24,356
Speaker 1: the like social connection, I'll do that later, or you know,

2639
02:01:24,476 --> 02:01:26,596
Speaker 1: enjoying the thing that I really care about. I'll get

2640
02:01:26,596 --> 02:01:29,316
Speaker 1: to that later, and you know the sad thing is

2641
02:01:29,356 --> 02:01:32,356
Speaker 1: that later is not guaranteed. You know, so many of

2642
02:01:32,396 --> 02:01:34,796
Speaker 1: us have had the experience of like this thing that

2643
02:01:34,836 --> 02:01:37,676
Speaker 1: we were you know, waiting to do, like runs out.

2644
02:01:37,756 --> 02:01:39,516
Speaker 1: You know. The cliche is like, you know, buy the

2645
02:01:39,596 --> 02:01:41,716
Speaker 1: nice bottle of wine that you're saving for a good occasion,

2646
02:01:41,716 --> 02:01:43,716
Speaker 1: and when the good occasion finally comes around, you open

2647
02:01:43,756 --> 02:01:46,316
Speaker 1: it and it's like it's toasted, it's dead, or you

2648
02:01:46,356 --> 02:01:49,036
Speaker 1: save your frequent flyer miles, or you know, for the

2649
02:01:49,316 --> 02:01:51,676
Speaker 1: people like me, you like a chicky self care. You know,

2650
02:01:51,676 --> 02:01:53,756
Speaker 1: you buy that one nice candle that you're going to use,

2651
02:01:53,836 --> 02:01:55,636
Speaker 1: or like that one bath bomb that you're going to save,

2652
02:01:55,916 --> 02:01:58,116
Speaker 1: and by the time you get to it's like all smelly,

2653
02:01:58,196 --> 02:02:00,236
Speaker 1: and it's just you know, I think we're doing that

2654
02:02:00,316 --> 02:02:03,076
Speaker 1: so much with the big opportunities in life, that we're

2655
02:02:03,236 --> 02:02:05,636
Speaker 1: assuming that they're going to be available tomorrow and they

2656
02:02:05,716 --> 02:02:09,116
Speaker 1: might not. I just did this episode with my colleague

2657
02:02:09,196 --> 02:02:12,596
Speaker 1: DJ Dedonna, who's a sabbatical expert who talks about the

2658
02:02:12,596 --> 02:02:14,916
Speaker 1: benefits of you know, taking extended time off now and

2659
02:02:14,956 --> 02:02:16,756
Speaker 1: he finds it people like well, you know, I'll do

2660
02:02:16,796 --> 02:02:18,956
Speaker 1: it someday. I'll do it when I retire. And you

2661
02:02:19,036 --> 02:02:21,196
Speaker 1: shared the statistic that I think I'm going to get right,

2662
02:02:21,236 --> 02:02:24,276
Speaker 1: which is that if you're in a couple, the possibility

2663
02:02:24,316 --> 02:02:26,796
Speaker 1: that you both individuals and your couple, you and your

2664
02:02:26,836 --> 02:02:29,596
Speaker 1: spouse will make it healthy to retirement age and like

2665
02:02:29,636 --> 02:02:32,276
Speaker 1: be able to do stuff is actually only fifty percent

2666
02:02:32,716 --> 02:02:34,516
Speaker 1: that both of you will make it and be healthy

2667
02:02:34,596 --> 02:02:36,596
Speaker 1: enough to travel or do whatever you're fantasizing you.

2668
02:02:36,716 --> 02:02:39,196
Speaker 3: And retirement's not really a thing anymore.

2669
02:02:39,316 --> 02:02:41,516
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, this is you're lucky enough to take retirement.

2670
02:02:41,516 --> 02:02:43,796
Speaker 1: But his point is like, don't be hyperopic, like see

2671
02:02:43,836 --> 02:02:45,876
Speaker 1: if you can get that time affluence now. And so

2672
02:02:45,916 --> 02:02:48,876
Speaker 1: I think I think we need to kind of think

2673
02:02:48,916 --> 02:02:51,116
Speaker 1: too often we worry about my apia, right. I think

2674
02:02:51,236 --> 02:02:53,316
Speaker 1: like capitalist culture gets us to do this of like

2675
02:02:53,396 --> 02:02:55,156
Speaker 1: you know, put out, don't put off till tomorrow what

2676
02:02:55,236 --> 02:02:57,956
Speaker 1: you can do today. But then we have doing everything today,

2677
02:02:58,196 --> 02:03:00,636
Speaker 1: assuming there's going to be a healthy, happy tomorrow that

2678
02:03:00,796 --> 02:03:03,556
Speaker 1: and that's given that that's not guaranteed. We can have

2679
02:03:03,596 --> 02:03:07,196
Speaker 1: a healthy medium where we put in some fun times

2680
02:03:07,196 --> 02:03:11,396
Speaker 1: from enjoyable stuff now. And I think our mystique and

2681
02:03:11,396 --> 02:03:12,956
Speaker 1: assumption is like, well, I can't do that because I

2682
02:03:12,996 --> 02:03:15,956
Speaker 1: won't be as I won't be as productive. But everything

2683
02:03:15,956 --> 02:03:18,236
Speaker 1: you've just heard showed you that that's a misconception. You'll

2684
02:03:18,236 --> 02:03:21,236
Speaker 1: actually be more productive if you have that break now,

2685
02:03:21,276 --> 02:03:23,236
Speaker 1: if you engage in that social connection, if you engage

2686
02:03:23,276 --> 02:03:25,956
Speaker 1: in rest active rest now, you'll be able to perform

2687
02:03:25,996 --> 02:03:29,396
Speaker 1: better in the future. It's so much of this is

2688
02:03:29,436 --> 02:03:34,036
Speaker 1: about short term versus long term. Also, what makes us

2689
02:03:34,036 --> 02:03:36,196
Speaker 1: happy in the short term doesn't make us happy in

2690
02:03:36,196 --> 02:03:40,756
Speaker 1: the long term. And these uncomfortable things that are important

2691
02:03:41,476 --> 02:03:46,236
Speaker 1: for the long term feel like tremendous inconveniences they do,

2692
02:03:46,676 --> 02:03:49,196
Speaker 1: and easy to dismiss, you know, because we can just

2693
02:03:49,236 --> 02:03:51,596
Speaker 1: say I am going to do it like.

2694
02:03:51,556 --> 02:03:53,356
Speaker 3: It is important to me, just not right now.

2695
02:03:54,116 --> 02:03:56,476
Speaker 1: So of course there's a conflict between the short term

2696
02:03:56,476 --> 02:03:57,116
Speaker 1: and the long term.

2697
02:03:57,156 --> 02:03:57,316
Speaker 2: Right.

2698
02:03:57,316 --> 02:03:59,556
Speaker 1: This is again the thing the agent thinkers talked about.

2699
02:03:59,716 --> 02:04:03,316
Speaker 1: But often more often than we think, the thing that's

2700
02:04:03,356 --> 02:04:05,156
Speaker 1: good for us in the short term is also good

2701
02:04:05,196 --> 02:04:07,836
Speaker 1: for us in the long term. We just are predicting wrong. Right.

2702
02:04:08,396 --> 02:04:10,836
Speaker 1: Take exercise, like a good workout might seem inconvenient, but

2703
02:04:10,876 --> 02:04:12,716
Speaker 1: you do it and you actually feel good, like you're

2704
02:04:12,716 --> 02:04:14,396
Speaker 1: pretty soon into it, right, And that's good for the

2705
02:04:14,396 --> 02:04:16,716
Speaker 1: short term and good for the long term social connection.

2706
02:04:16,876 --> 02:04:17,036
Speaker 3: Right.

2707
02:04:17,036 --> 02:04:18,916
Speaker 1: That's the kind of thing that like my feeling like

2708
02:04:19,036 --> 02:04:20,556
Speaker 1: it's going to take up time I should be checking

2709
02:04:20,556 --> 02:04:22,076
Speaker 1: my email, but let me talk to this person on

2710
02:04:22,116 --> 02:04:24,156
Speaker 1: the trade. It's actually going to feel good for you

2711
02:04:24,276 --> 02:04:27,076
Speaker 1: and the experience. Like the research shows that, like you

2712
02:04:27,116 --> 02:04:29,196
Speaker 1: won't actually get a ding in your productivity. If anything,

2713
02:04:29,236 --> 02:04:31,556
Speaker 1: you'll be more productive later on, right. And so I

2714
02:04:31,556 --> 02:04:34,716
Speaker 1: think there are cases where obviously there's this kind of

2715
02:04:34,756 --> 02:04:37,636
Speaker 1: disconnect between our short term and long term happiness, but

2716
02:04:37,716 --> 02:04:39,636
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that really work for happiness

2717
02:04:39,636 --> 02:04:41,996
Speaker 1: do both. It's just our mistaken minds that think they're

2718
02:04:42,036 --> 02:04:44,116
Speaker 1: going to be in conflict and practice they're not actually

2719
02:04:44,116 --> 02:04:45,516
Speaker 1: as much in conflict as we think.

2720
02:04:46,436 --> 02:04:50,036
Speaker 3: Is there anything that you've changed your mind about because

2721
02:04:50,076 --> 02:04:54,876
Speaker 3: of emerging science or some new idea that cropped up

2722
02:04:54,916 --> 02:04:59,156
Speaker 3: that challenged your preconceived idea about happiness.

2723
02:04:59,356 --> 02:05:01,316
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think I've changed my mind a

2724
02:05:01,356 --> 02:05:02,636
Speaker 1: lot about that time stuff.

2725
02:05:02,756 --> 02:05:02,916
Speaker 2: Right.

2726
02:05:03,996 --> 02:05:06,156
Speaker 1: You know, I would have you know, set no boundaries, people,

2727
02:05:06,156 --> 02:05:09,196
Speaker 1: please put in every opportunity, push push, push, And I

2728
02:05:09,236 --> 02:05:11,076
Speaker 1: think I've really seen the signs and be like, no, no,

2729
02:05:11,076 --> 02:05:13,076
Speaker 1: that's not going to work. I need to build in rest,

2730
02:05:13,116 --> 02:05:14,836
Speaker 1: I need to build in breaks, I need to build

2731
02:05:14,836 --> 02:05:17,396
Speaker 1: in that stuff. I wouldn't have thought that before, and

2732
02:05:17,476 --> 02:05:19,676
Speaker 1: it goes against all my intuitions, but I think that

2733
02:05:19,756 --> 02:05:21,156
Speaker 1: it's been so essential for me.

2734
02:05:22,796 --> 02:05:28,876
Speaker 3: You mentioned Martin Seligman earlier, and Sonya Leabamirsky who's been

2735
02:05:28,956 --> 02:05:34,836
Speaker 3: on the show. In the pantheon of people who study

2736
02:05:35,276 --> 02:05:39,156
Speaker 3: and teach happiness, Arthur Brooks comes to mind. Where do

2737
02:05:40,636 --> 02:05:46,476
Speaker 3: you and your colleagues divert? Like? Is there daylight in

2738
02:05:46,516 --> 02:05:49,796
Speaker 3: your perspectives? Like I imagine you don't match up perfectly

2739
02:05:49,836 --> 02:05:53,956
Speaker 3: with Sonya or Arthur. You have a different lens. So

2740
02:05:54,676 --> 02:05:58,156
Speaker 3: where is that daylight? What are the kind of points

2741
02:05:58,156 --> 02:05:59,276
Speaker 3: of departure and why?

2742
02:05:59,796 --> 02:06:03,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think so many of us are sweded

2743
02:06:03,396 --> 02:06:05,636
Speaker 1: by the data that to the extent that the data

2744
02:06:05,676 --> 02:06:08,516
Speaker 1: all agree, I think we kind of mostly agree on

2745
02:06:08,596 --> 02:06:11,756
Speaker 1: these things. I think if there's a spot where not

2746
02:06:11,796 --> 02:06:14,876
Speaker 1: so much we disagree, but our emphasies are different. I

2747
02:06:14,876 --> 02:06:17,276
Speaker 1: think my emphasis has really been on this idea that

2748
02:06:17,436 --> 02:06:20,076
Speaker 1: our minds are biased, that our minds are lying to us.

2749
02:06:20,356 --> 02:06:22,676
Speaker 1: And then unless we kind of like approach those things

2750
02:06:22,756 --> 02:06:25,756
Speaker 1: as lies as misconceptions, we're kind of not going to

2751
02:06:25,836 --> 02:06:27,716
Speaker 1: get it right. And so I think that's a difference

2752
02:06:27,756 --> 02:06:30,316
Speaker 1: of focus that like, if you look at my course,

2753
02:06:30,316 --> 02:06:32,516
Speaker 1: for example, I'm so focused on, like what are the

2754
02:06:32,556 --> 02:06:34,756
Speaker 1: misconceptions because we have to understand what we're getting wrong

2755
02:06:34,836 --> 02:06:36,756
Speaker 1: before we can figure out what we need to do better.

2756
02:06:38,516 --> 02:06:41,556
Speaker 3: I feel like Arthur puts a lot of emphasis on

2757
02:06:42,636 --> 02:06:47,556
Speaker 3: faith cultivating a relationship with the divine, and I don't

2758
02:06:47,596 --> 02:06:49,676
Speaker 3: know that you disagree with that, but it doesn't seem

2759
02:06:49,716 --> 02:06:53,636
Speaker 3: to be as top of mind or as big as

2760
02:06:53,676 --> 02:06:57,396
Speaker 3: a priority. I mean, Arthur very devout Catholic. How do

2761
02:06:57,436 --> 02:06:58,876
Speaker 3: you think about that aspect of it?

2762
02:06:59,316 --> 02:07:01,436
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know, in terms of their research,

2763
02:07:01,556 --> 02:07:04,716
Speaker 1: Arthur's right on this, right. I mean, many studies have

2764
02:07:04,796 --> 02:07:07,796
Speaker 1: looked at what makes people happy, and a big predictor

2765
02:07:07,916 --> 02:07:12,596
Speaker 1: is if you have participation in religious faith. What's interesting, though,

2766
02:07:12,676 --> 02:07:14,916
Speaker 1: is if you kind of break down what does that mean, Like,

2767
02:07:14,916 --> 02:07:17,116
Speaker 1: what are the components of being a person of faith

2768
02:07:17,156 --> 02:07:19,956
Speaker 1: that allows you to feel happier, it seems like it's

2769
02:07:19,956 --> 02:07:23,076
Speaker 1: actually not so much your beliefs as opposed to your

2770
02:07:23,116 --> 02:07:25,436
Speaker 1: behaviors and what you do what do I mean by that.

2771
02:07:25,916 --> 02:07:28,596
Speaker 1: Let's say you're, you know, I don't know, a devout

2772
02:07:28,636 --> 02:07:31,516
Speaker 1: Catholic who really believes in God, like you know, you

2773
02:07:31,596 --> 02:07:34,756
Speaker 1: kind of like kind of really buy into the whole worldview,

2774
02:07:34,756 --> 02:07:37,996
Speaker 1: all the metaphysics you agree with, but you never get

2775
02:07:37,996 --> 02:07:40,676
Speaker 1: to church, you don't have time to pray, You're very busy.

2776
02:07:40,916 --> 02:07:43,756
Speaker 1: Versus you are someone who goes to church a lot,

2777
02:07:43,876 --> 02:07:46,556
Speaker 1: You pray a lot, you do the pro social acts,

2778
02:07:46,556 --> 02:07:48,436
Speaker 1: like you donate to the spaghetti suppers and so on,

2779
02:07:48,836 --> 02:07:51,476
Speaker 1: but inside you kind of you're not there with some

2780
02:07:51,516 --> 02:07:53,556
Speaker 1: of the metaphysics. You're like, is it really the body

2781
02:07:53,596 --> 02:07:55,836
Speaker 1: of Christ? I don't know, I have some questions. Right,

2782
02:07:56,236 --> 02:07:57,756
Speaker 1: it turns out that the person that will get the

2783
02:07:57,756 --> 02:08:00,876
Speaker 1: most happiness benefits is the latter person, is the person

2784
02:08:00,876 --> 02:08:04,436
Speaker 1: who doesn't necessarily believe in the faith stuff, but actually

2785
02:08:04,436 --> 02:08:06,676
Speaker 1: engages in the behaviors. And if you look at the

2786
02:08:06,716 --> 02:08:09,116
Speaker 1: behaviors that matter, it's all the stuff we've been talking about,

2787
02:08:09,356 --> 02:08:12,556
Speaker 1: social connection and community. It's doing nice acts for others.

2788
02:08:12,756 --> 02:08:15,956
Speaker 1: It's taking time for presence and contemplation. It's turning your

2789
02:08:15,956 --> 02:08:18,356
Speaker 1: attention to the good things in life. Right, It's often

2790
02:08:18,396 --> 02:08:21,276
Speaker 1: taking time for rest most active religions and faiths have

2791
02:08:21,356 --> 02:08:23,996
Speaker 1: time for like a sabbath or like taking time off right.

2792
02:08:24,476 --> 02:08:26,676
Speaker 1: It's doing a lot of the behaviors that you would

2793
02:08:26,876 --> 02:08:29,316
Speaker 1: do that we've just talked about that matter for happiness,

2794
02:08:29,556 --> 02:08:31,716
Speaker 1: but you're doing it in the context of a cultural

2795
02:08:31,756 --> 02:08:34,236
Speaker 1: and a religious tradition that brings it all together for

2796
02:08:34,276 --> 02:08:36,436
Speaker 1: you and in a community of people that are doing

2797
02:08:36,436 --> 02:08:38,316
Speaker 1: it together, which is one of the biggest acts we

2798
02:08:38,356 --> 02:08:41,396
Speaker 1: know matter for happiness. So I actually think that the

2799
02:08:41,516 --> 02:08:44,356
Speaker 1: reason that faith, among many reasons of faith, is really

2800
02:08:44,356 --> 02:08:47,156
Speaker 1: good for boosting happiness is that it like kind of

2801
02:08:47,236 --> 02:08:48,956
Speaker 1: forces you to do a lot of the behaviors and

2802
02:08:48,996 --> 02:08:50,836
Speaker 1: the mindset things that we know matter a lot.

2803
02:08:51,036 --> 02:08:53,796
Speaker 3: It drives you towards all of those behaviors as may

2804
02:08:54,076 --> 02:08:56,916
Speaker 3: naturally as a result of the culture around it.

2805
02:08:57,036 --> 02:09:02,156
Speaker 1: Exactly to go to big Lebowski years from both the

2806
02:09:02,156 --> 02:09:06,756
Speaker 1: Stanley Covacs, you know, it's like, yeah, no, I think.

2807
02:09:05,836 --> 02:09:08,036
Speaker 3: I think Arthur would say, and I would probably agree

2808
02:09:08,076 --> 02:09:12,996
Speaker 3: with Arthur on this, that there is something distinct from

2809
02:09:12,996 --> 02:09:18,916
Speaker 3: what you're talking about with respect to believing in and

2810
02:09:18,996 --> 02:09:22,476
Speaker 3: appreciating that there is a power greater than yourself, and

2811
02:09:22,596 --> 02:09:26,556
Speaker 3: that that power is ineffable, and as a result of that,

2812
02:09:26,596 --> 02:09:29,396
Speaker 3: it doesn't have to take any dogmatic or you know,

2813
02:09:29,516 --> 02:09:35,876
Speaker 3: particular strain of thought or faith. But that alone is

2814
02:09:36,236 --> 02:09:39,516
Speaker 3: a way of disabusing yourself of your self obsession, and

2815
02:09:39,756 --> 02:09:45,236
Speaker 3: it's ultimately humbling, and it also makes place for awe

2816
02:09:45,356 --> 02:09:49,516
Speaker 3: and wonder and the mystery of it all that I

2817
02:09:49,516 --> 02:09:52,316
Speaker 3: think is, you know, I think that is a big piece.

2818
02:09:52,236 --> 02:09:54,156
Speaker 1: Totally, and that's one of the other you know. I

2819
02:09:54,156 --> 02:09:56,556
Speaker 1: think the behavior of finding more a on your life

2820
02:09:56,636 --> 02:09:59,276
Speaker 1: is another thing that of course religion gives you real

2821
02:09:59,356 --> 02:10:01,876
Speaker 1: large and I think this idea of having a sense

2822
02:10:01,916 --> 02:10:04,756
Speaker 1: of purpose that comes from religion and being a person

2823
02:10:04,756 --> 02:10:07,396
Speaker 1: of faith is really powerful and often it's in part

2824
02:10:07,516 --> 02:10:09,716
Speaker 1: kind of something that's bigger than yourself. But it's also

2825
02:10:10,836 --> 02:10:13,436
Speaker 1: most faiths are about not being about you, right, It's

2826
02:10:13,436 --> 02:10:15,876
Speaker 1: about other people. It's about connecting. It's about doing good

2827
02:10:15,876 --> 02:10:18,996
Speaker 1: things for others, and so I think having those in

2828
02:10:19,036 --> 02:10:21,756
Speaker 1: like one packed up tradition that's culturally relevant that you're

2829
02:10:21,796 --> 02:10:24,716
Speaker 1: doing with other folks is really important. It's not the

2830
02:10:24,756 --> 02:10:27,396
Speaker 1: only way to do it right. There's work by folks

2831
02:10:27,436 --> 02:10:30,276
Speaker 1: like Casper Turkyle, who studies ritual and cultures and these

2832
02:10:30,356 --> 02:10:32,996
Speaker 1: kind of strange cultures that find you can actually get

2833
02:10:32,996 --> 02:10:35,316
Speaker 1: a lot of it, not everything, for sure, but some

2834
02:10:35,436 --> 02:10:37,956
Speaker 1: aspects of it from other kinds of cultural traditions. He

2835
02:10:37,996 --> 02:10:40,636
Speaker 1: actually looks at people that are really into CrossFit, for example,

2836
02:10:40,996 --> 02:10:43,796
Speaker 1: where he finds that people push themselves, they have a

2837
02:10:43,876 --> 02:10:46,036
Speaker 1: ritual that they go to have a sense of community.

2838
02:10:46,116 --> 02:10:48,076
Speaker 1: You know, if somebody gets sick, they all work together

2839
02:10:48,156 --> 02:10:50,196
Speaker 1: to help that person. Right, They're all in this kind

2840
02:10:50,196 --> 02:10:53,516
Speaker 1: of shared experience together. Not all the benefits, but you

2841
02:10:53,556 --> 02:10:56,116
Speaker 1: get some of them. And so I think that faith

2842
02:10:56,156 --> 02:10:58,556
Speaker 1: traditions are one way to get at it. But for

2843
02:10:58,636 --> 02:11:02,836
Speaker 1: those folks who are atheist, agnostic, questioning, maybe just didn't

2844
02:11:02,836 --> 02:11:05,036
Speaker 1: grow up in a faith tradition that was really obvious

2845
02:11:05,076 --> 02:11:06,956
Speaker 1: to them, there might be other ways to get some

2846
02:11:06,996 --> 02:11:07,796
Speaker 1: of those things too.

2847
02:11:09,116 --> 02:11:13,716
Speaker 3: Obviously, a big piece in the declining quotion of happiness,

2848
02:11:14,476 --> 02:11:18,956
Speaker 3: at least in America has to do with the decline

2849
02:11:19,076 --> 02:11:23,356
Speaker 3: of faith based institutions and community after school programs like

2850
02:11:23,396 --> 02:11:27,556
Speaker 3: CrossFit is a great example. But you know, thirty forty

2851
02:11:27,636 --> 02:11:29,956
Speaker 3: years ago, we would have been talking about, you know,

2852
02:11:29,996 --> 02:11:34,316
Speaker 3: the after school programs or YMCA or you know, any

2853
02:11:34,436 --> 02:11:37,476
Speaker 3: number of things that kids used to do or young

2854
02:11:37,476 --> 02:11:39,756
Speaker 3: people used to do, and so many of those have

2855
02:11:39,836 --> 02:11:42,996
Speaker 3: gone away, and people have to kind of find their

2856
02:11:43,676 --> 02:11:47,716
Speaker 3: footing in all of these subcultures, which thank god they exist,

2857
02:11:47,716 --> 02:11:50,836
Speaker 3: and I think they serve a really important function. But

2858
02:11:51,116 --> 02:11:54,676
Speaker 3: the infrastructure upon which you know, we used to create

2859
02:11:54,756 --> 02:11:57,196
Speaker 3: so much of that seems to be no longer.

2860
02:11:57,516 --> 02:12:00,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is something that researchers have focused on

2861
02:12:00,116 --> 02:12:02,996
Speaker 1: a lot, especially researchers who looked at, say, increases in

2862
02:12:03,076 --> 02:12:06,996
Speaker 1: loneliness and declines and social connection across time. There's a

2863
02:12:07,076 --> 02:12:10,916
Speaker 1: very famous sociologist, Robert Putnam, the political scientists, sociologists who

2864
02:12:11,276 --> 02:12:14,236
Speaker 1: talked about what he called third places, so there's a

2865
02:12:14,276 --> 02:12:16,436
Speaker 1: place that's not work or not home where you can

2866
02:12:16,556 --> 02:12:19,276
Speaker 1: get together with other people. He had this very famous

2867
02:12:19,276 --> 02:12:20,636
Speaker 1: book called Bowling Alone.

2868
02:12:20,396 --> 02:12:21,356
Speaker 3: Called Soho House.

2869
02:12:21,476 --> 02:12:26,356
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly right. But nob Robert talked about how,

2870
02:12:26,436 --> 02:12:28,956
Speaker 1: you know, the nineteen fifties people joined bowling leagues, right

2871
02:12:28,996 --> 02:12:32,516
Speaker 1: and have this league we talked about Piglebaskiva. You have

2872
02:12:32,556 --> 02:12:34,316
Speaker 1: these leagues where you bowl with other people, you see

2873
02:12:34,316 --> 02:12:36,876
Speaker 1: them every week. It would be cross sections of people

2874
02:12:36,876 --> 02:12:40,796
Speaker 1: from different wealth categories, different political backgrounds and so on.

2875
02:12:41,276 --> 02:12:43,836
Speaker 1: Nowadays you don't get bowling leagues. People are bowling alone.

2876
02:12:43,916 --> 02:12:46,796
Speaker 1: Or maybe this was his book in the late nineties

2877
02:12:46,836 --> 02:12:48,916
Speaker 1: or early two thousands. Nowadays, I think we have bowling on.

2878
02:12:48,996 --> 02:12:52,556
Speaker 1: We are bowling on like yeah, on like PlayStation or something.

2879
02:12:52,396 --> 02:12:54,596
Speaker 3: And people don't even go to work anymore and everyone's

2880
02:12:54,636 --> 02:12:57,196
Speaker 3: at on zoom. And that gets back to the digital

2881
02:12:57,236 --> 02:12:57,956
Speaker 3: aspect of it.

2882
02:12:58,076 --> 02:13:00,716
Speaker 1: But having these places where you don't have to spend money,

2883
02:13:00,876 --> 02:13:03,236
Speaker 1: where people know your name, where you have cross sections

2884
02:13:03,236 --> 02:13:05,756
Speaker 1: of society, these things are going away. And he kind

2885
02:13:05,796 --> 02:13:08,116
Speaker 1: of charts from the nineteen fifties today kind of changes

2886
02:13:08,116 --> 02:13:10,116
Speaker 1: in this. When he wrote his book in the two thousands,

2887
02:13:10,116 --> 02:13:11,796
Speaker 1: it was just the dawn of the internet, so he

2888
02:13:11,876 --> 02:13:14,436
Speaker 1: kind of talked about how maybe television was causing this.

2889
02:13:14,556 --> 02:13:16,236
Speaker 1: I think if you look at kind of the way

2890
02:13:16,236 --> 02:13:19,076
Speaker 1: we engage with TV and all the media that you

2891
02:13:19,116 --> 02:13:21,316
Speaker 1: and I create, the things that we get online now,

2892
02:13:21,356 --> 02:13:24,116
Speaker 1: it's easier to stay home and entertain yourself than it

2893
02:13:24,196 --> 02:13:27,516
Speaker 1: was back in the day. The reason I love roberts

2894
02:13:27,516 --> 02:13:29,636
Speaker 1: work though, is that this could be just like a

2895
02:13:29,716 --> 02:13:32,316
Speaker 1: really depressing conclusion about boweling alone, Like from the nineteen

2896
02:13:32,316 --> 02:13:35,076
Speaker 1: fifties to today, everything's going to crap and social connections

2897
02:13:35,116 --> 02:13:38,156
Speaker 1: going down and third places have gone away. But he

2898
02:13:38,236 --> 02:13:41,196
Speaker 1: actually looked at the history before the nineteen fifties and

2899
02:13:41,236 --> 02:13:43,756
Speaker 1: what you find is that from the beginning of the century,

2900
02:13:43,756 --> 02:13:47,356
Speaker 1: from late eighteen hundreds to the nineteen fifties, people were

2901
02:13:47,356 --> 02:13:51,116
Speaker 1: actually creating these institutions that we were really atomized society,

2902
02:13:51,116 --> 02:13:56,076
Speaker 1: really individualist society, really polarized society, and a society a

2903
02:13:56,116 --> 02:13:59,156
Speaker 1: really unequal wealth distribution where it was the robber barons

2904
02:13:59,156 --> 02:14:02,636
Speaker 1: who controlled everything and so on, and people kind of

2905
02:14:02,676 --> 02:14:05,556
Speaker 1: got together and created these local in real life, in

2906
02:14:05,596 --> 02:14:09,236
Speaker 1: person communities and it really changed the structure of society

2907
02:14:09,236 --> 02:14:12,116
Speaker 1: and probably change the structure of happiness. And so what

2908
02:14:12,196 --> 02:14:15,356
Speaker 1: might seem like a depressing conclusion has a positive upswing

2909
02:14:15,996 --> 02:14:17,476
Speaker 1: in fact, that's way. He is a new book called

2910
02:14:17,516 --> 02:14:19,436
Speaker 1: The Upswing that he talks about this, which is like,

2911
02:14:19,916 --> 02:14:21,956
Speaker 1: we were at a yucky place in terms of social

2912
02:14:21,996 --> 02:14:24,996
Speaker 1: connection and community before and we fixed it, and with

2913
02:14:25,076 --> 02:14:27,356
Speaker 1: the right structures, we could have the intent to rebuild

2914
02:14:27,396 --> 02:14:28,996
Speaker 1: those kind of structures today too.

2915
02:14:29,796 --> 02:14:34,316
Speaker 3: Life finds a way and the pendulum has to swing back, yeah,

2916
02:14:34,316 --> 02:14:36,956
Speaker 3: because we need it right And even if we're not

2917
02:14:37,196 --> 02:14:41,236
Speaker 3: conscious of what we're lacking, we will intuitively start to

2918
02:14:41,236 --> 02:14:44,436
Speaker 3: build those things because you know, deep down, we know

2919
02:14:44,516 --> 02:14:48,076
Speaker 3: that this is important to living a meaningful life. Yeah,

2920
02:14:48,116 --> 02:14:49,036
Speaker 3: I think that's true.

2921
02:14:49,156 --> 02:14:51,276
Speaker 1: If we can get over our misconceptions, I think we

2922
02:14:51,316 --> 02:14:54,276
Speaker 1: can build structures for ourselves that make us a lot happier.

2923
02:14:54,356 --> 02:14:56,076
Speaker 1: But I think we can also build a world filled

2924
02:14:56,076 --> 02:14:58,156
Speaker 1: with structures that would make everyone happier too.

2925
02:14:59,876 --> 02:15:02,796
Speaker 3: I have this question, and I find myself reluctant to

2926
02:15:02,836 --> 02:15:04,916
Speaker 3: even ask it because I'm not sure that there's even

2927
02:15:04,996 --> 02:15:08,036
Speaker 3: an answer to it, and if there is, it's probably

2928
02:15:08,116 --> 02:15:10,236
Speaker 3: a four hour podcast, you know, to answer it. But

2929
02:15:11,556 --> 02:15:14,076
Speaker 3: I guess I'm curious, maybe just on a top level,

2930
02:15:14,716 --> 02:15:19,716
Speaker 3: how you think about all of these tools and ways

2931
02:15:19,756 --> 02:15:24,276
Speaker 3: to engender happiness in one's life for the person who

2932
02:15:24,356 --> 02:15:29,836
Speaker 3: is suffering from maybe something a little bit less than

2933
02:15:30,116 --> 02:15:34,556
Speaker 3: a mild mental health disorder. I mean, as a psychologist,

2934
02:15:35,156 --> 02:15:38,476
Speaker 3: what do you say to the person who is who,

2935
02:15:39,076 --> 02:15:43,876
Speaker 3: because of childhood trauma or because of a certain particular

2936
02:15:43,996 --> 02:15:47,996
Speaker 3: type of upbringing when they were young, is caught in

2937
02:15:48,596 --> 02:15:52,996
Speaker 3: a mindset pattern or a behavioral pattern that makes it

2938
02:15:53,116 --> 02:15:57,836
Speaker 3: very difficult to see their lives clearly and make these

2939
02:15:58,076 --> 02:16:03,036
Speaker 3: decisions effectively. That can change their behavior and in turn

2940
02:16:03,116 --> 02:16:04,716
Speaker 3: their relationship with happiness.

2941
02:16:04,996 --> 02:16:06,516
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is I'm glad you asked this

2942
02:16:06,516 --> 02:16:09,116
Speaker 1: because I think this is an important question. Because we

2943
02:16:09,316 --> 02:16:13,276
Speaker 1: to talk about these kind of rewirables or rewirements, we

2944
02:16:13,316 --> 02:16:15,916
Speaker 1: can assume that they're the whole answer. And I think

2945
02:16:15,916 --> 02:16:19,156
Speaker 1: it depends on the degree of problem that we're experiencing.

2946
02:16:19,236 --> 02:16:21,996
Speaker 1: Right again, sometimes I can use a physical analogy when

2947
02:16:22,036 --> 02:16:23,236
Speaker 1: we're talking about mental health.

2948
02:16:23,316 --> 02:16:23,476
Speaker 3: Right.

2949
02:16:23,516 --> 02:16:25,996
Speaker 1: So let's say I go into my doctor and I say, hey, doctor,

2950
02:16:26,196 --> 02:16:29,116
Speaker 1: I'm experiencing a little bit of inflammation, some high blood pressure.

2951
02:16:29,196 --> 02:16:30,756
Speaker 1: What should I do? The doctor will be like, well,

2952
02:16:31,156 --> 02:16:33,316
Speaker 1: eat right, get on the treadmill, do this thing. If

2953
02:16:33,356 --> 02:16:35,076
Speaker 1: I walk into my doctor and clutching my chest the

2954
02:16:35,116 --> 02:16:37,676
Speaker 1: same I'm having a cute cardiac arrest right now, the

2955
02:16:37,676 --> 02:16:39,756
Speaker 1: doctor will be like, well you right. You know, they

2956
02:16:39,796 --> 02:16:41,956
Speaker 1: would like, you know, clear and do all the things right.

2957
02:16:41,996 --> 02:16:45,996
Speaker 1: There would be an urgent medical intervention for an urgent situation.

2958
02:16:46,636 --> 02:16:49,116
Speaker 1: I think the same is true for our mental health, right.

2959
02:16:49,196 --> 02:16:50,996
Speaker 1: You know, if you're feeling you know, a little bit

2960
02:16:50,996 --> 02:16:53,396
Speaker 1: of languishing, you know things are going right, but I'm

2961
02:16:53,436 --> 02:16:55,916
Speaker 1: not as happy as I could be. All these rewirebles

2962
02:16:55,916 --> 02:16:57,836
Speaker 1: are for you, right, They're the thing you can do

2963
02:16:58,436 --> 02:17:01,196
Speaker 1: if you are acutely suicidal, if you're actively in the

2964
02:17:01,196 --> 02:17:02,876
Speaker 1: middle of a panic attack. I'm not going to be

2965
02:17:02,876 --> 02:17:04,596
Speaker 1: like we'll go out and find the delights in the world,

2966
02:17:04,756 --> 02:17:07,836
Speaker 1: or like you need a more urgent and medical intervention

2967
02:17:07,956 --> 02:17:11,676
Speaker 1: for that, right. But just like in the physical health case, right,

2968
02:17:11,716 --> 02:17:13,716
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully my you walking into the doctor with

2969
02:17:13,716 --> 02:17:15,956
Speaker 1: a cute cardiac wress, I get through it and I'm

2970
02:17:15,996 --> 02:17:18,516
Speaker 1: on the other side. At that point, the doctor might say,

2971
02:17:19,036 --> 02:17:20,636
Speaker 1: you know, now that you're in recovery, I think you

2972
02:17:20,676 --> 02:17:22,276
Speaker 1: need to look at your eating patterns, you need to

2973
02:17:22,276 --> 02:17:24,276
Speaker 1: get a little bit more exercise, and so on. I

2974
02:17:24,316 --> 02:17:26,436
Speaker 1: think the same is true for our mental health. Right

2975
02:17:26,796 --> 02:17:29,916
Speaker 1: once you're through an acute crisis, once you're working on

2976
02:17:29,956 --> 02:17:32,036
Speaker 1: something that's maybe a long standing issue for what you

2977
02:17:32,076 --> 02:17:34,556
Speaker 1: need professional help, or if you're an acute issue which

2978
02:17:34,556 --> 02:17:36,716
Speaker 1: you need treatment for, like, once you're on the other

2979
02:17:36,756 --> 02:17:39,276
Speaker 1: side of it, I think all these strategies then come

2980
02:17:39,276 --> 02:17:42,116
Speaker 1: into play. I think if these strategies is almost like

2981
02:17:42,196 --> 02:17:45,156
Speaker 1: preventative mental health, right, like almost like the project to

2982
02:17:45,196 --> 02:17:47,756
Speaker 1: make sure you can kind of get back to equilibrium.

2983
02:17:48,036 --> 02:17:50,636
Speaker 1: But they might not be the best immediate intervention if

2984
02:17:50,676 --> 02:17:53,476
Speaker 1: what you need is urgent care or really serious kind

2985
02:17:53,516 --> 02:17:54,836
Speaker 1: of mental health support.

2986
02:17:54,996 --> 02:17:58,636
Speaker 3: I guess I'm imagining a situation in which it's not

2987
02:17:58,676 --> 02:18:03,276
Speaker 3: necessarily urgent, but there's an underlying wound, and that wound

2988
02:18:03,596 --> 02:18:07,596
Speaker 3: is the reason you're behaving the way that you behave. Yeah,

2989
02:18:07,636 --> 02:18:12,076
Speaker 3: and you can, you know, do all of the rewirements

2990
02:18:12,116 --> 02:18:16,116
Speaker 3: and you know rewirables, and and you know, try to

2991
02:18:16,156 --> 02:18:19,556
Speaker 3: improve your behaviors, and that may move you in a

2992
02:18:19,636 --> 02:18:23,996
Speaker 3: forward direction. But ultimately, if you don't heal that underlying wound,

2993
02:18:24,076 --> 02:18:26,836
Speaker 3: like you're still dealing with symptoms, I guess. And so

2994
02:18:27,316 --> 02:18:29,876
Speaker 3: at some point you have to look inward and kind

2995
02:18:29,916 --> 02:18:33,956
Speaker 3: of contend with that if you truly want to make

2996
02:18:34,076 --> 02:18:37,636
Speaker 3: the magical leap to the happiness that eludes you.

2997
02:18:37,836 --> 02:18:40,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think again the physical analogy there would be,

2998
02:18:40,356 --> 02:18:42,556
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you have like a heart underlying heart

2999
02:18:42,556 --> 02:18:45,076
Speaker 1: condition or some genetic thing that right, like, even if

3000
02:18:45,076 --> 02:18:45,636
Speaker 1: you're doing.

3001
02:18:45,996 --> 02:18:48,196
Speaker 3: You have like you've got a calcium scan and the

3002
02:18:48,236 --> 02:18:50,116
Speaker 3: score wasn't so good. You're not going to die of

3003
02:18:50,156 --> 02:18:53,316
Speaker 3: a heart attack tomorrow, but there's a situation looming on

3004
02:18:53,316 --> 02:18:54,156
Speaker 3: the horizon for you.

3005
02:18:54,476 --> 02:18:57,156
Speaker 1: I think sometimes when we talk about these strategies, we think, well,

3006
02:18:57,196 --> 02:18:59,196
Speaker 1: that's the only thing LORI thinks you should do. I

3007
02:18:59,196 --> 02:19:02,276
Speaker 1: think these things can work in conjunction with going to

3008
02:19:02,396 --> 02:19:05,156
Speaker 1: therapeutic practice. Right. A lot of the strategies we're talking

3009
02:19:05,156 --> 02:19:08,636
Speaker 1: about are basically CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, where you're changing

3010
02:19:08,676 --> 02:19:11,316
Speaker 1: your thought patterns to change your behavior in your mindset.

3011
02:19:11,716 --> 02:19:13,716
Speaker 1: And sometimes that's hard to do on your own, especially

3012
02:19:13,716 --> 02:19:15,756
Speaker 1: if there's deep seated stuff Like there's a reason that

3013
02:19:15,836 --> 02:19:19,236
Speaker 1: some of these therapeutic practices work. But ultimately what they

3014
02:19:19,276 --> 02:19:22,716
Speaker 1: are is being curious, right, being curious with the help

3015
02:19:22,716 --> 02:19:24,836
Speaker 1: of some supportive person who can maybe help you see

3016
02:19:24,876 --> 02:19:26,996
Speaker 1: in if seeing it is hard. But then once you

3017
02:19:26,996 --> 02:19:29,196
Speaker 1: get curious, you're going to have homework where you try

3018
02:19:29,236 --> 02:19:30,996
Speaker 1: to change your thought patterns. You're going to change your

3019
02:19:30,996 --> 02:19:33,436
Speaker 1: behaviors in the face of this. And so if you're

3020
02:19:33,436 --> 02:19:35,276
Speaker 1: struggling to do it yourself, it might be that what

3021
02:19:35,316 --> 02:19:38,276
Speaker 1: you need is some therapeutic help, in part because like

3022
02:19:38,556 --> 02:19:40,236
Speaker 1: that can kind of get you closer to some of

3023
02:19:40,236 --> 02:19:43,396
Speaker 1: the answers. It can maybe make it the curiosity part easier.

3024
02:19:43,436 --> 02:19:45,356
Speaker 1: If what you have to be curious about is not

3025
02:19:45,916 --> 02:19:47,836
Speaker 1: you know, some low grade thing, but some deep like

3026
02:19:47,876 --> 02:19:50,396
Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes's mystery of what's going on with your mental health?

3027
02:19:50,476 --> 02:19:53,636
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this has been great. Thank you, thanks so

3028
02:19:53,716 --> 02:19:55,916
Speaker 3: much for having me on the show. I'm not done

3029
02:19:55,996 --> 02:19:58,236
Speaker 3: yet that I got one last one for you, Laurie.

3030
02:19:58,236 --> 02:19:59,716
Speaker 3: We're going to get you to stand a barber there.

3031
02:20:01,836 --> 02:20:03,796
Speaker 3: I think it would be great to just round this

3032
02:20:03,956 --> 02:20:09,516
Speaker 3: out with one message about happiness or a concrete thought

3033
02:20:09,956 --> 02:20:13,036
Speaker 3: or action that you would like everyone to hear.

3034
02:20:13,636 --> 02:20:17,356
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think when things are feeling the most unhappy,

3035
02:20:17,396 --> 02:20:21,516
Speaker 1: the most frustrating, just remember that all the science shows

3036
02:20:21,636 --> 02:20:24,716
Speaker 1: you have agency over it. There are concrete things you

3037
02:20:24,716 --> 02:20:27,036
Speaker 1: can do to change your behavior and change your mindset

3038
02:20:27,436 --> 02:20:30,076
Speaker 1: to regulate your negative emotions that you can learn the

3039
02:20:30,076 --> 02:20:32,476
Speaker 1: skills to do. And so even when it feels bad,

3040
02:20:32,556 --> 02:20:34,516
Speaker 1: remember there are strategies you can use to.

3041
02:20:34,436 --> 02:20:38,996
Speaker 3: Feel happier, beautiful. I love it. I'm happier now than

3042
02:20:38,996 --> 02:20:40,836
Speaker 3: I was at the beginning of the podcast. I should

3043
02:20:40,836 --> 02:20:45,676
Speaker 3: have given you a scale than too good. This was great.

3044
02:20:45,836 --> 02:20:47,516
Speaker 3: It was a long time coming, like we said at

3045
02:20:47,516 --> 02:20:51,436
Speaker 3: the outset, but I feel like we did the thing.

3046
02:20:57,236 --> 02:21:00,156
Speaker 3: That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly

3047
02:21:00,196 --> 02:21:03,476
Speaker 3: hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests,

3048
02:21:03,516 --> 02:21:08,236
Speaker 3: including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit

3049
02:21:08,316 --> 02:21:11,156
Speaker 3: the episode page at richroll dot com, where you can

3050
02:21:11,156 --> 02:21:16,076
Speaker 3: find the entire podcast archive, my books, finding Ultra voicing

3051
02:21:16,156 --> 02:21:18,516
Speaker 3: change in the plant Power Way. If you'd like to

3052
02:21:18,556 --> 02:21:22,156
Speaker 3: support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you

3053
02:21:22,196 --> 02:21:25,876
Speaker 3: can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts,

3054
02:21:25,916 --> 02:21:29,396
Speaker 3: on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and

3055
02:21:29,636 --> 02:21:32,596
Speaker 3: or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode

3056
02:21:32,636 --> 02:21:35,436
Speaker 3: with friends or on social media is of course awesome

3057
02:21:35,556 --> 02:21:38,636
Speaker 3: and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without

3058
02:21:38,636 --> 02:21:42,036
Speaker 3: the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast

3059
02:21:42,116 --> 02:21:45,796
Speaker 3: running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers,

3060
02:21:45,996 --> 02:21:50,596
Speaker 3: head to rich role dot com slash sponsors, and finally,

3061
02:21:50,676 --> 02:21:54,956
Speaker 3: for podcast updates special offers on books and other subjects,

3062
02:21:55,076 --> 02:21:57,716
Speaker 3: please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on

3063
02:21:57,756 --> 02:22:00,636
Speaker 3: the footer of any page at rich roll dot com.

3064
02:22:00,876 --> 02:22:04,236
Speaker 3: Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The

3065
02:22:04,316 --> 02:22:07,436
Speaker 3: video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis

3066
02:22:07,436 --> 02:22:10,876
Speaker 3: and Morgan McRae, with assist since from our creative director,

3067
02:22:11,116 --> 02:22:15,956
Speaker 3: Dan Drake, content management by shanis a Boy, copywriting by

3068
02:22:15,996 --> 02:22:18,956
Speaker 3: Ben Pryor, and of course our theme music was created

3069
02:22:19,196 --> 02:22:22,236
Speaker 3: all the way back in twenty twelve by Tyler Piat,

3070
02:22:22,396 --> 02:22:26,876
Speaker 3: Trapper Piet and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support,

3071
02:22:27,396 --> 02:22:30,916
Speaker 3: See you back here, sin Peace Flats Loved