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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, the show that's

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Speaker 1: considering changing its name to Goodfoot with Alyssa there. On

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Speaker 1: today's show, we talked to Tested podcast host Rose Evelis

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Speaker 1: about the history of gender verification testing and how it's

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Speaker 1: affected competition at the Paris Olympics. Plus good It's coming

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Speaker 1: up right after this Welcome back slices. Here's what you

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Speaker 1: need to know today. The US women's national soccer team

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Speaker 1: is moving on to the gold medal game for the

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Speaker 1: first time since twenty twelve after they beat Germany one

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Speaker 1: nil in only the second Olympic women's semi final match

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Speaker 1: ever to be scoreless after ninety minutes of play. It

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Speaker 1: was a nail bier, but finally in the ninety minute

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Speaker 1: Sophia Smith puts one in the back of the net.

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Speaker 1: SOFA has been directly involved in a goal in four

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Speaker 1: of the USA essays five matches at the Games, as

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Speaker 1: the US Women's national Team social said Summer of SOF

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Speaker 1: Summer of SOF. Indeed, the US will base Brazil in

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Speaker 1: the gold medal match at eleven am Eastern on Saturday,

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Speaker 1: and it'll be Spain versus Germany for the bronze on

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Speaker 1: Friday in Paris in track and field, in the four

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Speaker 1: hundred meter hurdle semi final, all three US runners, Sidney McLaughlin, Lavarroni,

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Speaker 1: Anna Cockrell and Jasmine Jones advanced to the final.

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Speaker 2: Lightning fast.

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Speaker 1: McLauchlin Lavroni had the best time in the semi and

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Speaker 1: enters Thursday's medal race as the world record holder and

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Speaker 1: favorite plus Friend of the show. Nicki Hilts finished third

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Speaker 1: in their preliminary heat of the fifteen hundred meters on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: advancing to Thursday's semi final.

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Speaker 2: Go, Nicki Go.

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Speaker 1: Also in the two hundred meter final, American Gabby Thomas.

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Speaker 1: You remember the one with the insane resume. I'm telling you.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't looked it up, look it up. While

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Speaker 1: she ran away with the gold medal, taking control early

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Speaker 1: in the race and never giving it up, her USA

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Speaker 1: teammate Brittany Brown secured the bronze.

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Speaker 2: We're pumped for you, Gabby. That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Ninety eight hundred miles from Paris, American Caroline marx One

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Speaker 1: surfing gold in Tahiti on Monday, defeating Tatiana Western Web

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Speaker 1: of Brazil in the gold medal final. It's the second

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Speaker 1: straight gold for the US, as Marx follows in the

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Speaker 1: footsteps of Native Hawaiian CHRISA. Moore, who claimed the inaugural

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Speaker 1: gold medal in surfing in Tokyo. In indoor volleyball, the

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Speaker 1: US continued it's strong showing with the quarterfinal victory over Poland.

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Speaker 1: Next up is longtime fau Brazil in the semifinals on Thursday.

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Speaker 1: The Americans move on to the semis for a remarkable

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Speaker 1: fifth straight time at the Olympics. Also impressive, the US

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Speaker 1: team won a medal in each of the last four Olympics.

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Speaker 2: Talk about consistency in the pool.

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Speaker 1: In water polo, the US defeated Hungary five to four

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Speaker 1: in the quarterfinals Yesterday. The US advances to the semifinal

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Speaker 1: round as they continued their pursuit of a record fourth

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Speaker 1: consecutive gold medal. Maggie Stephens, if you're listening, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you are, go get another medal. Let's crash another wedding.

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Speaker 1: We're all rooting for you over here. Okay, time to

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Speaker 1: pay the bills. Stick around though, because Rose Evelyth joins

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Speaker 1: US next while on vacation to help us sort through

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Speaker 1: the controversy and disinformation around gender verification and the Olympics.

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Speaker 2: You won't want to miss it. Welcome back.

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Speaker 1: In case you didn't notice, we kept today's episode really

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Speaker 1: trim so that we could spend most of our time

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Speaker 1: on a super powerful interview with Rose Evelyth, host of

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Speaker 1: the new podcast series Tested. Before we run the interview,

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Speaker 1: I want to give you a couple things to think

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Speaker 1: about as you're listening. First, let's just start with the basics,

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Speaker 1: the difference between sex and gender. Gender refers to the

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Speaker 1: socially constructed roles, behaviors, expressions, and identities of girls, women, boys, men,

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Speaker 1: and gender diverse people. Sex refers to a set of

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Speaker 1: biological attributes primarily associated with physical and physiological features like chromosomes,

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Speaker 1: gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive and sexual anatomy.

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Speaker 1: So back in twenty five, I read this article by

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Speaker 1: Claire Ainsworth in Nature magazine that really helped me better

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Speaker 1: understand the complexities of sex and gender and how science

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Speaker 1: on the subject is evolving. It sort of m go

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Speaker 1: to when I'm trying to talk to people about these issues.

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Speaker 1: The article titled Sex Redefined The idea of two sexes

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Speaker 1: is overly simplistic, has been reposted online at Scientificamerican dot

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Speaker 1: com with no paywall if you want to read it

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Speaker 1: and will put the.

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Speaker 2: Link in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: In it, Claire Ainsworth writes, quote, sex can be much

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Speaker 1: more complicated than it at first seems. According to the

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Speaker 1: simple scenario, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome

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Speaker 1: is what counts. With it, you are male, and without it,

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Speaker 1: you are female. But doctors have long known that some

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Speaker 1: people straddle the boundary. Their sex chromosomes say one thing,

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Speaker 1: but their gonads, ovaries, or testes, or sexual anatomy say another.

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Speaker 1: Parents of children with these kinds of conditions, known as

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Speaker 1: intersex conditions or differences or disorders of sex development DSDs,

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Speaker 1: often face difficult decisions about whether to bring up their

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Speaker 1: child as a boy or a girl.

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Speaker 2: Unquote.

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Speaker 1: Some people, like one of the athletes you'll hear about

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Speaker 1: in our interview with Rose, have female external genitals and

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Speaker 1: testicles inside their body. The Nature article tells the story

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Speaker 1: of a forty six year old pregnant with her third

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Speaker 1: child who learned for the first time during a screening

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Speaker 1: for the baby that her body was built of cells

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Speaker 1: from two individuals, probably from twin embryos that had merged

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Speaker 1: in her mother's womb. One set of cells carried two

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Speaker 1: X chromosomes, the compliment that typically makes a person female.

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Speaker 1: The other had an X and a Y. At forty

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Speaker 1: six years old, she learned that a large part of

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Speaker 1: her body was chromosomally male. From that same story, in

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, surgeons reported that they'd been operating on a

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Speaker 1: hernia in a man when they discovered that he had

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Speaker 1: a womb. The man was seventy and had fathered four

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Speaker 1: children already, which brings us to the big question. If

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Speaker 1: science now tells us that sex and gender are a

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Speaker 1: spectrum and not a binary, how do we catch.

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Speaker 2: People in society?

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Speaker 1: From that Nature article again quote, my feeling is that

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Speaker 1: since there is not one biological parameter that takes over

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Speaker 1: every other parameter, at the end of the day, gender

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Speaker 1: identity seems to be the most reasonable parameter, says Velaine.

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Speaker 1: In other words, if you want to know whether someone

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Speaker 1: is male or female, it may be best just to

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Speaker 1: ask unquote Vlaine. By the way, is Eric Vlaine then

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Speaker 1: the director of the Center for Gender Based Biology at UCLA.

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Speaker 1: Despite what some politicians or fearmongers might tell you in

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Speaker 1: everyday life, letting someone define their own identity is actually

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Speaker 1: pretty simple. In sports, it's a little more complicated. For example,

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Speaker 1: in these games. You might remember the boxing controversy that

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Speaker 1: I mentioned on a previous show. Two female boxers in

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Speaker 1: these Olympics were disqualified from last year's World Championships after

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Speaker 1: allegedly failing gender eligibility tests. At that twenty twenty three event,

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Speaker 1: Iman Khalif of Algeria and Chinese type's Lin Uting both

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Speaker 1: won medals in the women's competition before boxing's then federation,

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Speaker 1: the Russian backed IBA, announced that they'd failed the test

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Speaker 1: and then stripped them of their medals. In a statement

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Speaker 1: last week, in response to the controversy around the boxers

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Speaker 1: appearing in this Olympics, the IOC said that the two

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Speaker 1: athletes had been quote victims of a sudden and arbitrary

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Speaker 1: decision by the IBA end quote, disqualified without any due process.

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Speaker 1: The IBA has long been plagued by corruption scandals, was

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Speaker 1: suspended by the IOC from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: and then fully banished in twenty twenty three. Khalif box

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Speaker 1: for years, including in the Tokyo Olympics, without incident, until

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Speaker 1: the IBA performed that unspecified gender eligibility test shortly after

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Speaker 1: she defeated a Russian boxer who was previously undefeated. Regardless

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Speaker 1: of all these facts, in the last week or so,

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Speaker 1: these athletes have been misgendered, incorrectly labeled as trans, and

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Speaker 1: used by politicians, media and celebrities alike to fight culture wars.

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Speaker 1: And of course there are the athletes you won't even

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Speaker 1: see in Paris whose careers have been sidelined by changing regulations.

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Speaker 1: And that brings us to Rose Eveleth. So let's get

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Speaker 1: to the interview. We're joined now by Rose Eveleth, who

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Speaker 1: uses they them pronouns as a writer and producer who

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Speaker 1: explores how humans tangle with science and technology. They're the

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Speaker 1: creator podcast network flash Forward Presents and the host of Tested,

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Speaker 1: a new podcast series from CBC and NPRS embedded about

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Speaker 1: the past, present, and future of so called gender verification

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Speaker 1: tests in elite athletics aka track and field. Fun fact,

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Speaker 1: Rose is an artist who works with glass, ceramic, wood, plastic,

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Speaker 1: fabric and more, and they're in Paris for vacation, but

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Speaker 1: a major boxing story has them doing more interviews than

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Speaker 1: boat cruises down the Sein.

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Speaker 2: The one bonus is no eco lie hopefully Rose. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. Yes, I am very pleased to at least

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Speaker 3: as far as I know, currently not have ECOLI.

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Speaker 1: I want to just start with how long you spent

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Speaker 1: on this podcast, because first of all, it's incredible. I

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Speaker 1: listened to all of it. I cannot recommend it enough.

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Speaker 1: Why was this topic so compelling to you? And why

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Speaker 1: did you fight so hard for people to hear it?

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Speaker 3: This story feels to me like it's about so much

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Speaker 3: more than just you know, who gets to compete at

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Speaker 3: the Olympics, right, I think this story is about these

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Speaker 3: big questions, not just about fairness, but also about how

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Speaker 3: we organize the world. And you know what you do

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Speaker 3: when you learn that something that you thought was true

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Speaker 3: isn't true like it, you know, in this case human

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Speaker 3: sex biology, and none of us like to be wrong.

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Speaker 2: We don't like it.

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Speaker 3: It's not fun. And also, especially in this case, you know,

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Speaker 3: you're learning that the way you thought about the world

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Speaker 3: is incorrect. And not only that, but also maybe the

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Speaker 3: way you thought about the world actually was incorrect in

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Speaker 3: such a way that it hurt people. And I think

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Speaker 3: that that's a really uncomfortable thing for anybody to have

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Speaker 3: to grapple with And so I think what in this story,

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Speaker 3: what you're seeing over and over again is humans reacting

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Speaker 3: to to that and then taking different paths and making

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Speaker 3: different choices about what to then do with that information.

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Speaker 3: And that, to me is a really compelling story and

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Speaker 3: I just I don't know, I just couldn't give it up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm glad you didn't, because it's so so

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Speaker 1: worthwhile to listen to. I want to before we even

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Speaker 1: get into the details of the series, just make sure

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Speaker 1: the listeners understand the focus and the issue, and specifically

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Speaker 1: that the focus is on DSD athletes and how that

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Speaker 1: differs from trans athletes, and also how that differs from

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Speaker 1: intersect which it was a relatively common term before and

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Speaker 1: now they're all their own separate things.

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Speaker 2: So can you help us at least start by understanding that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, it is I think confusing and complicated. So,

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Speaker 3: and we had a lot of internal discussions about the

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Speaker 3: language to use on this show, because, as you say,

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Speaker 3: you know, intersex is a term that is a sort

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Speaker 3: of more broad umbrella term for people who sort of

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Speaker 3: fall in between perhaps male and female. But it used

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Speaker 3: to be a medical term. It has now sort of

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Speaker 3: been reclaimed as more of an identity term, like you know, queer,

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Speaker 3: it's something you use sort of claim for yourself, and

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Speaker 3: you can't really tell someone that they are intersex, and

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Speaker 3: that is a really powerful word for some people, and

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Speaker 3: other people don't connect with it. Then there's this DSD

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Speaker 3: Differences of Sex development, which is a medical term that

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Speaker 3: doctors use and some intersex folks hate because it medicalizes

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Speaker 3: something that they say, you know, there's nothing medically wrong

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Speaker 3: with me, this is how I was born. I'm totally healthy,

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Speaker 3: which is very valid. And then you have you know,

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Speaker 3: hyper androgenic, which just means high testosterone. And then obviously

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Speaker 3: there's trans athletes, which are athletes who have transition to gender.

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Speaker 3: And so there's a lot of confusion, I think, on

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Speaker 3: this topic around these different definitions and even internally, you know,

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Speaker 3: we talked a lot about how to refer to so

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Speaker 3: one of the athletes, all the athletes in my podcast

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Speaker 3: don't use the word intersex for themselves, and so we

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Speaker 3: don't call them intersex because it's not a word they

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Speaker 3: use for themselves. But also they don't really call themselves

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Speaker 3: DSD athletes. That's the term that like world athletics or

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Speaker 3: sort of sport organizations like the ioc USE, and they

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Speaker 3: actually don't, I mean, they don't have a term for

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Speaker 3: themselves that they use because they don't really they don't

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Speaker 3: think of themselves as different, right, They've never you know,

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Speaker 3: all the women I spoke with for the series didn't

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Speaker 3: know there was anything different about them until they had

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Speaker 3: to be tested because of this athletics policy, and suddenly

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Speaker 3: are being told by people that they don't really know

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Speaker 3: or often don't really understand that actually there's something different

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Speaker 3: about you have this thing, and it's all very baffling

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Speaker 3: and bewildering to them. And so I think it's really

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Speaker 3: important to note that, you know, intersex DSD differences of

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Speaker 3: sexual sex development or sometimes people will say athletes with

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Speaker 3: sex variations, variations and sex biology those are that is

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Speaker 3: a different category of people than trans athletes. You can

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Speaker 3: be trans and intersex. You know, both things can be true.

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Speaker 3: But in general, when we talk about athletics, there's two groups,

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Speaker 3: and the rules around them are different, and some of

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Speaker 3: the considerations around them are also different.

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Speaker 1: So when we're talking about DSD, athletes who grew up

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Speaker 1: as girls identify as girls are competing against girls and

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden have a quote unquote gender

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Speaker 1: verification test. This has happened for a long time in a.

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Speaker 2: Variety of ways.

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Speaker 1: But when and why did this practice start of believing

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Speaker 1: that girls and women needed to be tested in order

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Speaker 1: to be sure that they were competing in the right category.

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Speaker 3: This is one of the I think most I don't know,

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Speaker 3: surprising things that I learned, and maybe one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons I couldn't stop thinking about the story, which is that,

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Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of us think of

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Speaker 3: this as very modern. It's a scientific test. It actually

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Speaker 3: goes all the way back to basically the beginning of

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Speaker 3: women's competition in the Olympics. So in the modern Olympics,

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Speaker 3: women are allowed to compete in track and field in

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Speaker 3: nineteen twenty eight. That's the first time that you really

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Speaker 3: get them on the track. They're allowed to compete in

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Speaker 3: more quote unquote feminine sports like tennis and swimming before that,

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Speaker 3: but track and field is when they start really you know,

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Speaker 3: getting into the sports that were perceived at the time

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Speaker 3: as being very masculine, very manly. And as soon as

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Speaker 3: that happens, literally night teen twenty eight, that first games,

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Speaker 3: you immediately see commentators and spectators and coaches saying that's

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Speaker 3: not a woman, that's not a woman. That woman looks

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Speaker 3: too strong, she looks too muscular. The woman who came

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Speaker 3: in second in the eight hundred meters was a Japanese

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Speaker 3: woman named Tomy Keenway, and people in the newspaper wrote

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Speaker 3: about her saying things like she has all the power

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Speaker 3: of a halfback. She should play for the Chicago Bears.

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Speaker 3: Is what you're hearing. And so very quickly you hear

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Speaker 3: calls for testing, some kind of examination we need to do,

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Speaker 3: you know, an exam to see that these are really women.

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Speaker 3: And in nineteen thirty six, that's when the first official

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Speaker 3: sex testing policy comes on the books, and it's very vague. It's,

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Speaker 3: you know, if there are questions of a physical nature,

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Speaker 3: and they never really say what questions those are, what

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Speaker 3: you would do to answer them. It's all very vague.

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Speaker 3: But that's when we start, and you see, if you're

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Speaker 3: interested in this early history, I highly recommend Michael Waters's

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Speaker 3: book The Other Olympians. It kind of goes into a

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Speaker 3: lot of this in a lot more detail, and it's

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Speaker 3: a great book. So it really starts in nineteen thirty six,

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Speaker 3: and then you see these waves and this era. We

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Speaker 3: joked when producing the podcast that it really feels like

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Speaker 3: whack a mole or like this weird groundhog day where

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Speaker 3: you're just seeing the same conversations popping up over and

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Speaker 3: over again with slightly different trappings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that manifests in some of the most fascinating stories.

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Speaker 1: You talked to athletes who had these quote unquote or

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Speaker 1: so called nude parades, where literally before competition they would

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Speaker 1: have to strip down naked and have strangers look at

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Speaker 1: their genitals to ensure that they were women. They would,

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Speaker 1: for a very long stretch, have to carry cards that

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Speaker 1: said that they were women and bring it along with

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Speaker 1: them to every competition. So this goes on for many years.

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Speaker 1: And this is not surprising to anyone who understands how

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Speaker 1: much women's bodies and the roles and places they're allowed

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Speaker 1: in society have been policed for eternity. But at one

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Speaker 1: point there was a stretch where women were allowed to

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Speaker 1: compete mostly unfettered, and then the arrival of castor Samanya

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Speaker 1: stirs up this new era of regulation.

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Speaker 2: So can you tell us about that important pivot point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So scientists fight for like you say, thirty years,

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Speaker 3: they're writing all these letters, they're begging the IOC and

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Speaker 3: World Athletics to drop it, and they do. In nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty nine is like, you know, the icy finally gives

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Speaker 3: up and then yeah, there is this ten year period

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Speaker 3: where there's actually it's sort of similar to that nineteen

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Speaker 3: thirty six moment where there is a kind of very

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Speaker 3: vague policy that basically says, you know, if you really

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Speaker 3: think there is a man pretending to be a woman

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Speaker 3: to win medals on the track, you can do some

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Speaker 3: kind of examination. They don't say it quite that way,

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Speaker 3: but they kind of say that same thing. If there

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Speaker 3: is a suspicion, you can do an examination. And there

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Speaker 3: were athletes before Castor who were excluded from sports because

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Speaker 3: of this, but Castor is really the moment where it

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Speaker 3: breaks into this sort of international discussion. So Castor goes

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Speaker 3: to the World Championships in two thousand and nine in Berlin,

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Speaker 3: she wins the eight hundred meters, She runs this incredible race,

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Speaker 3: and instead of being able to celebrate being the world champion,

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Speaker 3: she gets thrust into this very intense media cycle quite

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Speaker 3: similar to what we're seeing today with these boxers. Where

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Speaker 3: people are asking questions about her gender, her body, her sex,

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Speaker 3: Is she really a woman? You hear the head of

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Speaker 3: the Athletics Federation say something like, you know, yes she

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Speaker 3: is a woman, but maybe not one hundred percent, which

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Speaker 3: is almost identical to what people said about toomy Keanway

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Speaker 3: nineteen twenty eight and similar to what you're hearing today,

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Speaker 3: and that sort of sparks this new era of regulation

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Speaker 3: that we go from chromosomes in from like the sixties

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Speaker 3: through the two thousand basically to now we're sort of

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Speaker 3: in this era of testosterone, at least in track and field,

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Speaker 3: and this idea that we need to test and regulate

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Speaker 3: these women's testosterone levels because that is giving them a

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Speaker 3: quote unquote unfair advantage. And we can talk about whether

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Speaker 3: that's true or not, but that sort of Castor's case

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Speaker 3: sort of launches us into this new era where we

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Speaker 3: now again are suddenly deciding that, oh no, we do

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Speaker 3: need to have tests, we do need to have regulations,

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Speaker 3: and we're kind of doing that whole cycle again.

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Speaker 1: And worth noting that Castor Samena, for those who don't know,

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Speaker 1: is the South African middle distance runner, and in particular,

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Speaker 1: there are certain events and there are certain people who

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Speaker 1: tend to be most targeted by these rules and regulations.

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Speaker 1: They are not uniform across the board, or at least

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Speaker 1: for a long time, they weren't until more recently when

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Speaker 1: it started to be more widespread. Correct me if I'm

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Speaker 1: wrong here, But at one point it was very kind

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Speaker 1: of random, even in the sports where they would kind

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Speaker 1: of look and say, we think testosterone is most beneficial

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Speaker 1: in say pole vault, but a predominantly white event like

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Speaker 1: pole vault was not regulated. And then in other events

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Speaker 1: that were predominantly won by black athletes who were win

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Speaker 1: of color, we.

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Speaker 2: Are seeing a lot more crackdowns.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you look at the athletes that you

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Speaker 1: spoke to who have been sidelined by these tests and regulations,

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Speaker 1: they are African women. For the most part, that tends

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Speaker 1: to be who gets gets most targeted. And I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: how they were personally affected by this beyond just the track,

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Speaker 1: because you spend a lot of the podcast talking about

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Speaker 1: their fight to become eligible again, or their fight against

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Speaker 1: the regulations, their fight to get their careers back. But

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Speaker 1: what about as human beings, because as you said, most

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Speaker 1: of these women do.

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Speaker 2: Not know they have DSDs.

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Speaker 1: Most do not have the resources or the medical teams

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Speaker 1: to help them through surgeries or hormone therapy. Most are

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Speaker 1: dependent on their careers for money and finances. Like what

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Speaker 1: did you see these women go through? As you were

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Speaker 1: researching and reporting on them?

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Speaker 3: It was so challenging because you know, there are two

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Speaker 3: women who I largely focus on on the show, and

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Speaker 3: I've talked to a lot of women for the series,

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Speaker 3: but we really focus on Christine Bauma from Theamibia and

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Speaker 3: Maximali from Kenya, and I think that the impact on

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Speaker 3: them is is it touches almost everything right, So you know,

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Speaker 3: I think often when you talk about this story, people

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Speaker 3: really focus on the medicalization, right, the fact that they're

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Speaker 3: being asked. You know, Christine is taking these drugs, they

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Speaker 3: have these side effects. You know, some women you know

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Speaker 3: opted to go for irreversible surgeries. I spoke with, you know,

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Speaker 3: Annett the Geisa from Uganda who had a surgery that

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Speaker 3: no one made sure she understood what was going on,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, there was really terrible medical trauma there.

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Speaker 3: And that's all very important and very real, but also

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Speaker 3: there's this emotional toll that I think is almost hard

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Speaker 3: to explain and describe, because these women, you know, like

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Speaker 3: we said, they've never thought there was anything different about them.

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Speaker 3: All of a sudden, they're told, actually, you're too fast,

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Speaker 3: you've raised suspicions, or you look a certain way, you've

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Speaker 3: raised suspicions. We need to do these tests. And then

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Speaker 3: you're told by someone who often these women have never

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Speaker 3: met before. Right. You get a call from some person

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Speaker 3: that you don't know who is telling you, Okay, I

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Speaker 3: know that you've thought that you're a woman your whole life,

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Speaker 3: but like, actually you kind of fall into this other

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Speaker 3: category and you're getting all of this frankly quite technical,

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Speaker 3: quite confusing information. These are women who you know, don't

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Speaker 3: have access to, like, you know, education in the way

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Speaker 3: that you know you might might help you understand some

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Speaker 3: of this biological lingo, right DSD, you know, like five

406
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Speaker 3: alpha reductates. Like I'm a science reporter and sometimes I

407
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Speaker 3: read these things and I go cross side, right, and

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Speaker 3: so to see even the doctor.

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Speaker 1: That you spoke to, Yeah, Christine's coach's wife is a doctor,

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Speaker 1: and she said I could not make my way through

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Speaker 1: the paperwork that they sent to try to understand exactly

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Speaker 1: how to affect her hormones in a safe way, and

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Speaker 1: I'm a doctor, right, and the exactly athletes to do

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Speaker 1: it without any help totally.

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Speaker 3: And then also you have the like cultural piece of this,

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Speaker 3: which is that you know, many of these athletes are

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Speaker 3: from places that don't you know, not that there's really

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Speaker 3: anywhere in the world that's like incredibly enlightened on a

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Speaker 3: lot of this, but you know, there are some athletes

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Speaker 3: that I spoke with who come from places where it's

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Speaker 3: actually quite dangerous to suddenly be outed as somehow part

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Speaker 3: of you know, the LGBTQ community or QIA community. And

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Speaker 3: this is actually a big point of discussion and part

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Speaker 3: of the reason why we were really clear in the

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Speaker 3: series that these are not trans athletes, because you know,

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Speaker 3: when I was talking to these athletes to try and

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Speaker 3: get them to talk to me for the series and

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Speaker 3: earn their trust and explain with the show is about,

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Speaker 3: one of their first questions always was are you gonna

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Speaker 3: lump me in with trans athletes? Because that is unsafe

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Speaker 3: for me? And I think sometimes you know, when you

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Speaker 3: come from like you know, I'm from the United States,

433
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 3: like there's this very well meaning, you know, upper class

434
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 3: liberal like solidarity, and we should have like intersectionality, and

435
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 3: that is so true in theory, but on the ground,

436
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 3: you know, you can't. You can't do that until it's

437
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: safe for people. And so you know, we that part

438
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 3: of why we don't talk call them intersects, right, we don't,

439
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: you know, we don't use some of these words. And

440
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 3: so you I heard all these stories from these women

441
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: where you know, they go home to their home countries

442
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 3: and people come up to them and they say, I

443
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 3: heard you're a man. You know, there are now suddenly,

444
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 3: you know, an endless number of people on the Internet

445
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 3: who feel emboldened to make comments about these women's bodies

446
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 3: under every picture on Instagram or every video, and also

447
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 3: to say, you know that thing that you've been working through,

448
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 3: like for your whole life. You know, in Christine Bouma's case,

449
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 3: your you go to the Olympics, you win a silver medal,

450
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 3: and people are saying you don't really deserve that, you're

451
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: not really a woman, making absolutely in my opinion, unhinged

452
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: comments about like what your genitals might look like. I mean,

453
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 3: this is like what you're surrounded with all the time,

454
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 3: and it just takes a toll on people because they

455
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 3: just are under this constant scrutiny.

456
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: Well, and I think you know, it's worth noting that

457
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: sometimes in an effort to defend DSD athletes, people will say, oh,

458
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: but they're not trans, and unfortunately what that does is

459
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: further demonize the trans community. That distinction is important not

460
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: only for the safety of these athletes in some places,

461
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: but I do think the journey is different than one

462
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: of someone who believes their identity does not match the

463
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: sex with which they were born. I think one of

464
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: the things that was so sad to listen to was

465
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: these surgeries are hormone therapies. To me, it did not

466
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: sound like there was a lot of research or care

467
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: put into understanding how they would affect the athletes side

468
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 1: effects bodily changes, fatigue, ability to perform long term effects

469
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: on their body, and then the lack of support they

470
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: were getting from federations as they work to become eligible

471
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: and try to qualify and compete.

472
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 2: With their new bodies.

473
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: You mentioned the one athlete who she didn't know that

474
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: she was going to be cut when she agreed to

475
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: surgery for internal gonads. She thought that there was some

476
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: sort of shot or something that was going to affect her.

477
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: She didn't realize when she woke up she was going

478
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: to have stitches and a scar.

479
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 2: To me that if.

480
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: You're talking about the average person being forced through all

481
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: of this, I think sometimes we lease the humanity in

482
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: pursuit of using the right terms or understanding the science.

483
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: But these are human.

484
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 3: Beings, absolutely, absolutely, and you know it's We talked to C. C. Telfer,

485
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 3: who is a trans athlete who wrote a great book

486
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 3: about sort of her quest to become an Olympian, and

487
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: she made the point, you know too, that like you know,

488
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 3: in terms of the distinction between these two groups, like

489
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 3: these women don't this there's something being told, This is

490
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 3: being projected onto them, like you are different now, whereas

491
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 3: if you're a trans woman like or a transient person,

492
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 3: you know that about yourself, right, Like that is the

493
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 3: thing that you have thought like a lot about, you

494
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: know what I mean, It's a thing that you're taking

495
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 3: a lot of space in your mind and it's not

496
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: something that someone projects onto your hands to you or

497
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 3: says like you know, surprise, you know, you're you're actually this.

498
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: Autronomy in it.

499
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 3: And to your point about the medications, it was really

500
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 3: shocking to me because you know, I would ask people,

501
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 3: you know, I'd ask these doctors, you know, what do

502
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 3: we know in terms of the side effects of these

503
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 3: drugs on specifically you know, women with sex variations, right,

504
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 3: women with this specific DSD right like five oft four

505
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 3: reduct taste, Like, do we know?

506
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: Right?

507
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: Because their bodies are constructing slightly differently, that's what we're

508
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: talking about. Do we know the side effects that there?

509
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 3: I be and over and over again I heard no,

510
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 3: we don't because we don't give these drugs these women

511
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 3: like in this way, like, this is not a thing

512
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 3: that we're doing medically, right. The World Medical Association has

513
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 3: come out against this, The American Medical Association has come

514
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 3: out against this, in part because there is no medical

515
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 3: necessity here. There is no reason to be doing this

516
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 3: except for quote unquote fairness in sports.

517
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that brings me back to the main issue

518
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: that I've had with trying to discuss issues around both transparticipation, DSD,

519
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: everything else, is that it seems that science is still

520
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: trying to figure out so much of it. It seems

521
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: like we don't have a definitive answer on how much

522
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 1: of an advantage testosterone gives.

523
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 2: Does it feel to you right now?

524
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: Like the rules and regulations are based on the most

525
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: up to date and complete science and are being done

526
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: with that, you know, generosity, earnestness, and genuine intent to

527
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: match the science.

528
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 3: This is the ten thousand dollars question, right, Like everyone's like,

529
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: just follow the science, Just follow the science, you know,

530
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: which is I think a great thought. There has been

531
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 3: some science. So this is also one of the points

532
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: I think that gets confusing on the story when you

533
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 3: first encounter it, because what you see is that both

534
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 3: sides say the science supports our side. And so when

535
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 3: you're looking at that as a layperson or even as

536
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 3: a science journalist, you're like, well, wait a minute, Like

537
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: that can't be true, Like both of you can't be

538
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 3: you know, that doesn't make sense. And I think, but

539
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 3: you know, there, I think that there is, you know,

540
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: a way in which you can craft the question you

541
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 3: are asking to get the answer that you want via science, right.

542
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: And this is the thing, you know, I love science.

543
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: I'm a science reporter. I'm a huge science nerd. But like,

544
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 3: there are lots of ways to do things to make

545
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: the science seem like it supports you. So what we're

546
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 3: seeing right now is that World Athletics will say, we

547
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: absolutely are following the most up to date science. What

548
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: our logic is is that these athletes are quote unquote

549
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 3: biological males, and so all of the data that we

550
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 3: have on CIS men and their performance in sport applies

551
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 3: to these women. And you have you know, intersects, health experts, doctors,

552
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 3: you know, people on that side saying, no, these are

553
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: not equivalent populations. You can't these are apples and oranges.

554
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 3: You can't just take this data. You can't decide these

555
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 3: are actually biological men and then take this data and

556
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: apply it to them. That just is not good science.

557
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 3: And so then when you think, okay, well, what would

558
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 3: the ideal study be, right like, and this is what

559
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 3: the IOC argues that you should be doing, is that

560
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 3: if you're going to have a policy, you know, they

561
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: put out their Framework for Inclusion in twenty twenty one,

562
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 3: and they say, if you're going to have a policy,

563
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 3: and you know, you can have a policy, if you

564
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: want to have a policy, you know, you get to

565
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 3: make the rules of your sport. But if you're going

566
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 3: to have a policy, it does need to be based

567
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 3: on robust science that is based on the population that

568
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: we're actually talking about. And the sport that we're actually

569
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 3: talking about at the performance level that we're talking about.

570
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 3: And so what that means is that what you really

571
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: want to do, if you really want to say what

572
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 3: percent advantage does having one of these DSD conditions give

573
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 3: you if you are one of these women, what you'd

574
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 3: want to do is you want to look at those women,

575
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: look at their performance, and look at their testosterone level

576
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 3: and compare them to non DSD athletes. That study has

577
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: not been done. The only people who could do that

578
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: study is World Athletics because World Athletics is the only

579
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: one that really has that kind of robust data. Even then,

580
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: it wouldn't be complete because there are probably people competing

581
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 3: who have these DSDs who are just not that good

582
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 3: and so haven't been flagged for two But at the

583
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: very least you would do that. They have not done that.

584
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: I don't know why.

585
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: What's the most generous answer as to why? What's the

586
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: most generous The.

587
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 3: Most generous answer is that it is not easy to

588
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: do in the sense that you don't it's your sample

589
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 3: size is going to be small, right, And in science

590
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 3: we talk about this all the time. Rate like, if

591
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 3: you have a small sample size, the conclusions that you

592
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: can draw from that are limited, and you know, World

593
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: Athletics likes to say these women are vastly overrepresented in sport.

594
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 3: They kind of try and insinuate that they're everywhere, that

595
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 3: they're taking over, that they're, you know, winning everything, and

596
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: I think that actually we're not talking about that many

597
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: people in the grand scheme of things. And so if

598
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: I think the most generous interpretation here is that even

599
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 3: if you were to do that study and you could

600
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,479
Speaker 3: do it, I think you at they say it's partially

601
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: a privacy concern. I think there's absolutely a way to

602
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: do the study with anonymised data. We see this in

603
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: health research all the time. Drug companies have figured out

604
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: how to do like this is a thing you can do,

605
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: but you can you know, I think that even if

606
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 3: you could do it in a way that was anonymized

607
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: and private and you know, respected athletes privacy, I think

608
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 3: that you run into just like a power problem in

609
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: terms of like how much data you actually have. That's

610
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: the most generous interpretation. The least generous is that they

611
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 3: don't like the answer. And so that's what I've heard

612
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 3: other people say is that don't ask the question if

613
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 3: you don't want.

614
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: The answer, I don't want to open Pandora's boxer. I

615
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: just want to mention how fascinating the idea is that

616
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: you would have a chromosomal difference that then would mean

617
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: that you are a biological male, even if you had

618
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: a vagina and breast and all the other like the

619
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: idea that anywhere else in the world we would be like, well,

620
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: you're a guy because of that understanding. The way that

621
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: society reacts to everything else is just like, It's why

622
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: this is so difficult, because there is this desire to

623
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: create a binary where there isn't one with human bodies.

624
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: And that's why when we try to create fairwareness in

625
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: women's sports, we start regulating natural advantage, while we will

626
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: never do that for men because we heroise men with

627
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: natural advantages. You talk in the podcast about these roughly

628
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: twenty genetic mutations that help make athletes elite. We've long

629
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: talked about, you know, Michael Phelp's ability to process lactic

630
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: acid and a variety of other things. And when men

631
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: get really good, we just expand the record books for

632
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: how great they are. And it feels like this artificial

633
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: cap on female greatness or our expectation for what women

634
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: can do is ultimately what drives this, because you would

635
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: never ask a man whose genetic advantages help him be

636
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: better in sport to take.

637
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: Drugs to stop them, but we do that here.

638
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: I guess that's a long winded way of saying that

639
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: it feels like some advantages we do not regulate. And

640
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: the explanation for why we do regulate these sex related

641
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: advantages is because sports are binary and separated by sex.

642
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: What's your response to that.

643
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean sports can be binary and separated by

644
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: sex and not require sex testing. The thing that people,

645
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 3: the thing that makes sports require sex testing is this

646
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: idea that women's sports need to be protected, right, and

647
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: so there is this idea that the women's category is

648
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 3: a protected category, the men's category is not right, and

649
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 3: so this idea and I think this really gets out

650
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: some of these bigger issues of like who is doing

651
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 3: the protecting and why and from what? And there's this

652
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 3: I think deep paternalism that is built into a lot

653
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 3: of this, which is that women need to be protected

654
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: from And this is where it gets I think often

655
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: a little bit confusing when you ask people to articulate

656
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 3: which is what are we protecting women from here, and

657
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 3: the answer is, I guess we're protecting women from other

658
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 3: women who might have male like advantages, which is sort

659
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: of it doesn't totally add up because you know, again,

660
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 3: these women are not men, and there's in fact no

661
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 3: real evidence that they have quote unquote male like advantages.

662
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: Caster Semenia does not even have the world record in

663
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 3: the women's eight hundred meters. She's the fourth fastest woman

664
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: in history. You know, Christine Boma didn't win the gold medal,

665
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 3: she won the silver, right, these women are not out

666
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 3: here running or performing at quote unquote male levels, and

667
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: so that I think that sort of there's this idea

668
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: of we have to protect the female category and this

669
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 3: is in the name of protection.

670
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: And also who's not being protected by the choices that

671
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: they're making, which would include the women that you spoke to.

672
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: Also what if you go back, and of course during

673
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: the podcast we get all this context of the idea

674
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: that even early on in competition, the fear was that

675
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: women would become men if they ran too.

676
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: Fast and worked out too hard.

677
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: And that's part of the problem is that we've associated

678
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: quote unquote manly characteristics with things that are just good

679
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: for you in sports. So when men who look the

680
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,479
Speaker 1: most stereotypically manly and presumably have the highest testosterone as

681
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: a result, are heralded for their strength and toughness and

682
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: their natural gifts for sport, and women when they become

683
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: too strong, fast, tall, whatever, they get called freaks of nature,

684
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: or they get called unfeminine, or it feels like so

685
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: much of this is really just about misogyny and control

686
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: over female achievement, especially when you look even at this Olympics,

687
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: someone like Katie Ladecci. The comments under her victories are

688
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: that's a dude, right, and we're looking at one of

689
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: the greatest women athletes of all time. There is absolutely

690
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: no question, there never has been one, and where that's

691
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: not even the conversation being had. And yet because of

692
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: her greatness and her height and strength, we're still having

693
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: this conversation and that feels like everything is rooted in

694
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: that well.

695
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 3: I think also to the Katie Ladeci like, it's been

696
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 3: really interesting in a bad way to watch the ways

697
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 3: in which this conversation has shifted the last just five years,

698
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: like due to transphobia. So I think I used to

699
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 3: be able to say in conversations like this, Oh, Katie

700
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: Ladeci incredibly dominant. Right, No one ever says like Katy

701
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: Lecky's probably a man, except now they do. Right now,

702
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: we're living in this weird era where as you say, underneath,

703
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 3: you know, And I don't want to over index on

704
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: like Instagram commenters, because like you know, I think most

705
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 3: people are far more better adjusted than that. But you know,

706
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: you'll see people saying, that's a dude, right, that's a

707
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 3: man accusing Katie Leadecki of being a trans person. And

708
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 3: that is new, right, that is not something that you

709
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 3: saw even like three or four years ago. And that

710
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: is really, I think all down to this sort of

711
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 3: moral panic and you know, really big boom in transphobia,

712
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 3: transphobic laws, transphobic rhetoric. That is also I think really

713
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 3: muddying the waters here around both sides of the conversation,

714
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 3: because now you're seeing, you know, like in the reporting

715
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: around in Monticheleef and you know, Linuting, you're seeing people

716
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 3: claiming that they're trans people, we're transmitt in which they're

717
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 3: not right. And there's this.

718
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: All of them, the boxers, yeah, right, the boxers, And

719
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 4: you're just seeing so much and there's always been confusion

720
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 4: I think between for people, and I think mostly historically

721
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 4: that has been sort of honest confusion, and now I

722
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 4: think it's really a big.

723
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 3: Sort of disinformation campaign to try and collapse down.

724
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 2: That nuance politicized.

725
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you look at how DSD has been

726
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: conflated with trans athletes, and when you look at how

727
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: trans athletes have been politicized and demonized in an unfair way,

728
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: especially when the science is not there for that, what

729
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: might the future for girls and women in sport look

730
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: like to you if we continue on this path?

731
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's such a great question. And you

732
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 3: know it's interesting that now we're seeing parents at these

733
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 3: games say that's a trans person, right, whereas it used

734
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 3: to be. So these stories have gone have been around

735
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 3: for forever. Right in nineteen ninety and there's a local

736
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 3: newspaper story of a girl soccer game in Texas, a

737
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 3: ten year old the goal was like the sort of

738
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 3: star goalie had short hair, which was like, oh, like

739
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 3: maybe she's a boy. And the two fathers on the

740
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 3: opposing team demanded proof of her gender and they wanted

741
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 3: someone to go take her into the lady's room and

742
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 3: like take her clothes off basically and like check that

743
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 3: she is a girl.

744
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: And remember, we're protecting.

745
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 3: Women exactly exactly, Like don't you feel protected? I feel

746
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 3: so protected and so so yeah, so like it's both

747
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 3: the same and different, right, you know, in these modern conversations.

748
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 3: But you know, when I think about the future, it's

749
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 3: it's interesting. I think. On the one hand, I do

750
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 3: think that for every person who is viewing just really

751
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: horrific stuff on the internet, there is a person who,

752
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 3: you know, I get in my inboxer and you know,

753
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 3: on the stuff that I'm seeing, who is saying, wait,

754
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 3: hold on a minute, what, like what are we talking about?

755
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 3: What are we doing? I do think that for many

756
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 3: people hearing about this, it's really baffling that this is

757
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 3: a thing that we're doing. And I take a lot

758
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 3: of I take a lot of encouragement right from that,

759
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: which is that you see people saying, oh, what what

760
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: are we talking about at exactly? And so you know,

761
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: and I also think that there it has been a

762
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: lot more, at least in my reporting, there seems to

763
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,439
Speaker 3: be have been a real shift in the last five

764
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 3: to ten years, specifically around the ways in which women

765
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: competitors on the track think about competing against athletes with

766
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 3: sex variations. So it used to be that you'd hear,

767
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: like in Castor's era, you'd hear people say, I don't

768
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 3: want to compete against her all of that. You still

769
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: that's definitely I think people are still saying. But I

770
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 3: think in general, now what you hear is this better

771
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 3: understanding that these women were born this way. They're not

772
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 3: doing anything, they're not cheating, they're not taking anything, you know,

773
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 3: they're not changing their bodies in any way. And that's fine,

774
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 3: and I'm okay with that now. Of course, that often

775
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 3: is coupled with the sort of foil, which is that

776
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 3: I don't want to compete against trans athletes, right, So

777
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 3: like there's sort of a sort of double edged sword there.

778
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 3: But I think and I think the credit for that

779
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 3: goes to cast Semenia and how vocal she has been

780
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 3: and how like public she has been about this really

781
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: harrowing and horrible experience that she's had. And so on

782
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: the one hand, I sometimes take some I don't know,

783
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 3: I guess saw us in the fact that there are

784
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 3: so many people asking questions and saying, hold on, wait

785
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: a minute. And I do think that once you learn

786
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 3: that this is not new, that this is not something

787
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 3: that just popped up, That this is not even you know,

788
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 3: in the last ten years. This is a one hundred

789
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: year history. It really kind of opens people's eyes up

790
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 3: to all the things you've been saying, which is that

791
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 3: this is not These are not scientific, really conversations, These

792
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 3: are not really These are questions rooted in something else.

793
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: They're rooted in these really old ideas about women, what

794
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: women are capable of, women should be doing, what women

795
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 3: should look like. And I think once you have that

796
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 3: that key kind of unlocks a lot of things for

797
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 3: this conversation. And I'm seeing a lot of people kind

798
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,959
Speaker 3: of have those realizations. I think is great.

799
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: Did you end up at the end of this podcast

800
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: believing in a solution because you suggested some at the end,

801
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: but you don't make a pick.

802
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 3: I think it's hard and it's real cop out right

803
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 3: where I'm like, who can say, you know what the

804
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 3: future old? I think this is a thing that I think,

805
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 3: as you say, I am really interested in having actual

806
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 3: conversations about what the future of sport can look like

807
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 3: with people who are, you know, coming at this with

808
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 3: in good faith and in the sort of you know,

809
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 3: the spirit of inclusion, right, Like, well, how do we

810
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 3: make sure that everybody gets to compete in a way

811
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: that makes sense? And I think that that might be

812
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 3: different sport to sport, right there may be sports where

813
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 3: certain kinds of regulations make sense and others don't. I

814
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,479
Speaker 3: think that there, you know, there may be situations where

815
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: we think about dropping the gender binary and or doing

816
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: something else. And I really think that what I'd like

817
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 3: to see, frankly, is just less of this kind of like,

818
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 3: you know, hateful, really awful rhetoric and constantly I think

819
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: that challenges a lot of people who are really interested,

820
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 3: who actually care about women's sports, which I think many

821
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 3: people who are very vocal in this moment do not.

822
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 3: But women who actually are people who actually care about

823
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 3: the future of women's sports to be able to like

824
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 3: not have to spend all of their energy correcting people

825
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 3: and correcting misinformation and fighting for the human rights of

826
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 3: these athletes so that then they can actually have interesting

827
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 3: conversations about what could happen next. But right now, so

828
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 3: much of the energy is being spent just trying to

829
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 3: like keep the head above water in terms of just

830
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: all of these attacks. And so I've heard a lot

831
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 3: of really interesting, you know, potential ideas, and I would

832
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 3: love I'm sure there are stuff that I haven't thought

833
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: of that other people can think of that would be

834
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 3: more inclusive. And I think for now, because we don't

835
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 3: have those solutions in place, we need to find a

836
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 3: way to let everybody compete, right, and that's not what's

837
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 3: happening right now. And that feels like a just baseline.

838
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 3: You know, it's in the Olympic Charter, it's in the

839
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: United Nations, you know, Declaration of Human Rights, and that

840
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 3: feels like the low hanging fruit first, and then we

841
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 3: get to have much more cool and interesting conversations about

842
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: the future of sports once we get all this nonsense

843
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: out of the way.

844
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:07,919
Speaker 2: I could not agree more.

845
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm constantly in a state of defense

846
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 1: and explanation and even hesitant to ask honest, in good

847
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: faith questions because of how cruel the other side is,

848
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: and not wanting to be thrown over there, but wanting

849
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 1: to ask and understand best I can, how we organize,

850
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: if we could organize differently, how we're fair while also

851
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 1: being included all those things. And I think this podcast

852
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: is a really big step toward more people being educated

853
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: enough to have those conversations in a way that will

854
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: move us forward instead of constantly feeling like we're going backwards.

855
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for giving us your time,

856
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for staying up late in Paris, Thanks for doing

857
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: this podcast and for fighting to get it made and

858
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: heard because it's really spectacular.

859
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 3: Oh thank you so much for having me. I really

860
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 3: appreciate it. I will stay up late for you anytime.

861
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: We tried to crayon a ton into a relatively short

862
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: amount of time, So please go listen to the full

863
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: podcast tested. Plus, my former colleague Sarah Johnson produced a

864
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: great short feature with Rose for the show Good Follow.

865
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Speaker 2: You can watch it on YouTube.

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00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: It's about twenty six minutes into the August second episode. Also,

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00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: we've got an update on those boxers that we discussed.

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00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 1: Imman Khalif won her welterweight semifinal bout yesterday and will

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00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: fight for a gold medal. Also, lynnu Ting fights in

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00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: the featherweight semifinals today at three thirty pm Eastern. All right,

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00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: we got to take another break. When we come back.

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00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: Olympic fits and feet heat.

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00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 2: You're back. We're back. The US women's national soccer team

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00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: is so back.

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00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to

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00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: get in the game every day too, So here's our

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00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: good game play of the day. First, did you do

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00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: your homework from yesterday? Okay, get on it, Subscribe to

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00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: the Tested podcast and listen. Also, we've seen a lot

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00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: of picks and videos of athletes showing off their personal

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00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: style and we want to know your pick for most

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00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: stylish athlete at the Olympics. Which off court, off track,

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00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: off field fits are must see?

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00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: Let us know.

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00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: And if you see any feet heat tag producer Mesh,

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00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 1: they're trying to get their sneaker game back up at

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00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: meish the journalist, no oh, were you in?

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00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 2: Journalist on everything?

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00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: You can also hit us up on email good game

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00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: at Wonderbedia network dot com or leave us a voicemail

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00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 1: at eight seven two two oh four fifty seventy and don't.

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00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: Forget to subscribe.

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00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: Rate and review It's super easy watch having a brick

894
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: wall for a goalkeeper. Rating infinity out of five stars.

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00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 1: Review a feeling of safety that can't be put into words.

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00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: Good with the hands, good with the feet, even willing

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00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: to stretch out an opponent during a cramp attack midgame

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00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: with a gold medal match on.

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Speaker 2: The line A listen, there will never lose.

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00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: Faith when we know you've got our back. God, bless

901
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: that foot. You're the real golden bootless. See it's just

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00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: that easy. Now it's your turn, subscribe, rate and review.

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00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow. Slices, Good Game, Rows,

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00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: Good Game, Nayor's Foot, few trans phobes. Good Game with

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Speaker 1: Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership

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00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 1: with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

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00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 2: You can find us on.

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00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 1: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzi

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00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,

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00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan,

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00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: Emily Rudder, Brittany Martinez and Grace Lynch. Production assistants from

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Speaker 1: Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain