Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways stories of things we simply don't know the
Speaker 1: answer to. Hie there and welcome to another episode of
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always by Steve and
Speaker 1: and we're here to solve another mystery. Are you ready sure?
Speaker 1: What are we talking about? This week? We're gonna be
Speaker 1: looking into the mystery of the Mills family of Berkeley, California.
Speaker 1: Alan Jennie Mills lived at Woolsey Street in Berkeley with
Speaker 1: two of their five children, Eddie and Daftning. And in
Speaker 1: February nineteen eighty, Al, Jeannie and Daphne were found murdered
Speaker 1: at each one shot execution style with the twenty two
Speaker 1: caliber bullet in their heads. And they were exploding twenty
Speaker 1: two bullets, weren't they. I've seen that somewhere. I did
Speaker 1: not see that particular one as possible, and you could
Speaker 1: have an exploding one like I'm guessing mostly just a
Speaker 1: hollow point, but yeah, yeah, I mean you can. You
Speaker 1: can make things like that. You see did you see
Speaker 1: David the Jackal or read the book? Yeah, he made
Speaker 1: these little exploding once using mercury. That's off the point,
Speaker 1: but I was just I've seen it said that they
Speaker 1: were shot in the head with exploding twenty two caliber routes. Yeah, uh,
Speaker 1: that I did not know. I think just a regular
Speaker 1: twenty two round will probably do the trick, though, I
Speaker 1: think almost anything point blank. You think probably actually blanks
Speaker 1: would kill you a point blank yeah, I think probably
Speaker 1: even like a pellet gun point blank would like you
Speaker 1: in the right place. Yeah, there's some damage. Yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: anyway that But of course Eddie is unencountered for here.
Speaker 1: Eddie was not killed. Eddie was seventeen at the time.
Speaker 1: He was in his bedroom. He apparently said that he'd
Speaker 1: gone into his room, smoked a little pot, was watching TV,
Speaker 1: and he lived through the whole thing and didn't hear anything,
Speaker 1: was completely unaware. Apparently his grandmother came over for a visit,
Speaker 1: and she's the one who discovered the bodies, and then
Speaker 1: maybe wasn't knocked on Eddie store and said, hey, Eddie,
Speaker 1: you wear that everybody's dead out here. It was. It
Speaker 1: was a Genie or Dafty who didn't die that day,
Speaker 1: but two days later in the hospital. That's that's why
Speaker 1: I'm asking, because I can't remember which one it was,
Speaker 1: but one of them survived for a short amount of
Speaker 1: time because she locked herself in the bathroom. I think
Speaker 1: back to back to our murder. No murder weapon was
Speaker 1: found and they never found it, and so are unsolved.
Speaker 1: Mystery here is who killed the Mills family. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: good question, right, It's a very good question. Yeah. The
Speaker 1: police were suspicious of Eddie because, after all, gunshots make
Speaker 1: a lot of noise, and it seemed impossible that he
Speaker 1: couldn't have heard them. Well, he could have been washing
Speaker 1: his hair, just like Chutney. Yeah, it could have been
Speaker 1: why I could have had the volume in his TV. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the gym got a perm, got in the shower, washed
Speaker 1: her hair, and then come found what movie are you
Speaker 1: playing off of? Bond? You guys not memorized that movie.
Speaker 1: I haven't even seen it. Actually, I've only seen bits
Speaker 1: of it. Sorry. Yeah, well I was going to say
Speaker 1: about Eddie is I've only I only found one source
Speaker 1: for this, but one source said that he was actually
Speaker 1: in his room listening to the stereo with headphones on. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've heard that too, so that that could also account
Speaker 1: for it. And also nobody explained why he didn't hear
Speaker 1: the shots. Yeah, well I don't think that will explain it.
Speaker 1: Is there are there's a little thing called the suppressor.
Speaker 1: You know. Well, and if he was watching TV loud,
Speaker 1: if it was like a violent show or you know,
Speaker 1: something like that, something would like Yeah, no, I I
Speaker 1: looked up what was on TV that day? What was it?
Speaker 1: I don't it was sitcoms because there there was three
Speaker 1: major networks that in this is there's not a lot
Speaker 1: of TV channels and they were all sitcoms at the time,
Speaker 1: So it wasn't anything that would have had violent gun
Speaker 1: battles going on. That might have blended in with the shots. Sure,
Speaker 1: but like really loud yelling or things like that, that's
Speaker 1: a mainstay of sitcoms, and laugh tracks and things like that,
Speaker 1: all the laugh tracks. Interestingly enough, laugh tracks didn't exist
Speaker 1: in the eighties, but that's another story for another train.
Speaker 1: Um No, genuinely they didn't. But this, um, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe with the headphones on, he could have been watching
Speaker 1: TV with headphones on yea, or like again, they used
Speaker 1: to suppressor. You know, it doesn't make them silent, right,
Speaker 1: but it does it will make them much quieter. And
Speaker 1: if you got loud noises on in the other room,
Speaker 1: then you're pretty much golden. Yeah, And I'm not sure
Speaker 1: where his bedroom was. I assume it was upstairs. I
Speaker 1: got on street view and looked at the look at
Speaker 1: the neighborhood. It's all older, two story houses. And another
Speaker 1: reason I think they might have used to suppress here
Speaker 1: is the houses are really close together. Ye, neighbor hurting anything,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, nobody reported hearing. There are no
Speaker 1: shouts or shots reported by anybody. Yeah. The shouts thing
Speaker 1: is like the weirder part to me, I guess, And
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get there, But I think we have
Speaker 1: other things to be talking about right now. Right I
Speaker 1: wold have been screaming and shouting. I have a serious
Speaker 1: to why they didn't do that. Okay, Yeah, we'll get there. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: Another another police were suspicious of that because of it
Speaker 1: because of the gunshot thing. Also, there was no sign
Speaker 1: of any forest entry, which again is not necessarily completely damning.
Speaker 1: I would say, not even well. I mean, yeah, they
Speaker 1: tested his hands. They found a little bit of gunpowder residue.
Speaker 1: On the right hand, there was a possible motive for
Speaker 1: Eddie to kill them, which is that he eventually did
Speaker 1: wind up in heriting some money two seven thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: which would be over seven hundred thou dollars in todays money. Okay,
Speaker 1: well that's that's an okay motive. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I don't know if i'd kill my family over seven
Speaker 1: hundred grand I don't think I would. I don't think
Speaker 1: I would either, But I like my family. It depends
Speaker 1: on the day for me. Yeah. Yeah, that's the whole point,
Speaker 1: right is do you like your family? Do you have
Speaker 1: a good relationship with your family? Although, in fairness, I
Speaker 1: don't think I would kill anyone. I don't I wouldn't
Speaker 1: kill three strangers. Now, I wouldn't do it either. But
Speaker 1: the local district attorney's office didn't bring any charges against
Speaker 1: Eddie in the case was dropped. They started a lack
Speaker 1: of evidence. And yeah, and there was another consideration, which
Speaker 1: is that Alan Genie Mills had enemies who wanted them dead,
Speaker 1: and these people had killed people before, and so possibly
Speaker 1: we don't know that for completely ironclad sure, but quite
Speaker 1: quite possibly. Yeah, well some of them did actually do
Speaker 1: some killing, but we'll talk about that later. Um. And
Speaker 1: so in the absence of a really ironclad case, I mean,
Speaker 1: Eddie's defense attorneys would have had no trouble at all.
Speaker 1: Convincing the jury or at least planning a little doubt
Speaker 1: in their heads that was somebody else who did that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so another great reason not to bring a case, and
Speaker 1: I trying to put them on trial. You probably want
Speaker 1: to know about those deadly people I was talking about.
Speaker 1: I'd like to know about them. Yet you want to
Speaker 1: know about them, okay? So Alan Ginnie and their kids
Speaker 1: had been involved for several years with the church called
Speaker 1: the People's Temple, which had been and probably most of
Speaker 1: our listeners have heard of the People's Temple, Jim Jones Jones, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Jonestown and all that stuff. Yeah, they were involved with
Speaker 1: those guys, and they started in nineteen sixty nine. I
Speaker 1: believe they joined the church and uh stayed with it
Speaker 1: until nineteen seventy five after they left the church. It
Speaker 1: sees me the Temple they set in motion a chain
Speaker 1: of events said eventually would result in assassination, lots and
Speaker 1: lots of murders, and a whole bunch of suicides as well.
Speaker 1: Although almost everybody in the People's Temple died, probably about
Speaker 1: a hundred survived. And of those hundreds, some of them
Speaker 1: were okay, And they were just regular people who have
Speaker 1: been kind of been held prisoner in Jonestown or wherever,
Speaker 1: and some of them were actually psychos who participated in
Speaker 1: the whole killing school there. There was I'm getting a
Speaker 1: little ahead of myself, but you know, everybody thinks that
Speaker 1: Jonestown they all they all drank the Koolid and died
Speaker 1: committed suicide. But as it happens that it appears that
Speaker 1: a substantial number of the people there were actually murdered.
Speaker 1: And I yeah, yeah, And I know we're we're going
Speaker 1: to dive into this pretty deep or shortly, and I
Speaker 1: guess yeah, But I do want to clarify for those
Speaker 1: listeners who are unfamiliar, Joe is not just using a term.
Speaker 1: It's not a turning a phrase of drinking the kool aid.
Speaker 1: In this situation, people literally drank the kool aid and died.
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit, but
Speaker 1: I just wanted to go ahead and point that out.
Speaker 1: Fun fact it was actually flavorid. Yeah, not cool aid.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, yeah, you know that's just so Yeah. Again
Speaker 1: another mark against Jones. He cheaps out it doesn't drink.
Speaker 1: It's one of those things. Uh, I can't think of
Speaker 1: the term for it. When a brand name becomes so
Speaker 1: recognized with a product that that's what everybody calls it,
Speaker 1: regardless of what it is. It's like clean X, I
Speaker 1: need a clean X, or a band aid or a
Speaker 1: band aid. Yeah, it's it's exactly that. But that's why
Speaker 1: it's the kool Aid, because that's what everybody called it,
Speaker 1: no matter what it was. Yeah, that's how I would
Speaker 1: have gotten out of being forced to drink the kool Aid.
Speaker 1: And I said, I'm sorry, I don't drink that cheap crap.
Speaker 1: You can get me some cool aid. Then we'll talk. Okay,
Speaker 1: where was I I don't know, Oh yeah, okay, So
Speaker 1: I was talking about how their actions eventually caused the
Speaker 1: whole thing that happened at Jonestown. I mean not obviously,
Speaker 1: they didn't deliberately wish for all those people to die,
Speaker 1: quite the opposite. But among the survivors were the worst
Speaker 1: of the worst, the ones who acted as temple as
Speaker 1: guards and who administered beatings to people, and the ones
Speaker 1: who forced people to drink the kool aid in the
Speaker 1: end and murdered a bunch of people at the airstrip.
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about that a little later too, And
Speaker 1: you can bet that those people blamed Alan Jennie Mills
Speaker 1: for the destruction of their nifty Little cult being the
Speaker 1: strum that broke the camel's back. Yeah kind of. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, Jones was unstable and he'd been talking about
Speaker 1: mass suicide the earliest Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the White Knights. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, the White Knights
Speaker 1: are crazy. The whole thing is actually, this whole episode
Speaker 1: is just insane. I read I read quite a quite
Speaker 1: a large num road FBI files on this whole thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they interviewed all the survivors and stuff, and uh,
Speaker 1: although the insanity of this whole thing, it's just and
Speaker 1: I'd always known about this, but not in such detail.
Speaker 1: This is one of those ones where you start reading
Speaker 1: it and then you just get sucked into the documents
Speaker 1: and wait, I got to read the next one, and
Speaker 1: I got to read the next one, and I know
Speaker 1: it's midnight, but I got to read the next one.
Speaker 1: I didn't do that with this one, but I did
Speaker 1: that with something that's upcoming. So it's easy to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really easy. Do it fairly frequently. Just yeah, I
Speaker 1: waste a lot of time on this stuff. Although it's
Speaker 1: not a total waste of time. I I leaned some
Speaker 1: good information out of there, absolutely, but it was it
Speaker 1: was like a lot of reading and then here's a
Speaker 1: little nugget, and then here's a little nugget, because well
Speaker 1: it's the FBI files. They're all redacted, so it's it's
Speaker 1: hard to read that. Yeah, all all these blacked out things,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, Alan Genie Mills used to be called
Speaker 1: Elmer and Deanna Myrtle, and then they changed their name
Speaker 1: after they left the People's Temple. So the Myrtles joined
Speaker 1: the People's Temple when it was in Yucayak, California. Originally
Speaker 1: they started out in Indiana eventually, and then Jones got
Speaker 1: a little paranoid about nuclear war, and he'd read an
Speaker 1: article in the Atlantic where he heard that, you know,
Speaker 1: the whole northern California kind of Redwoods area is a
Speaker 1: really good place to survive on nuclear war, which is true.
Speaker 1: Is that why you left the Indiana I thought it
Speaker 1: was just that he was starting to get a lot
Speaker 1: of negative press. I think it was partly that too,
Speaker 1: But there was He's he apparently was very concerned about
Speaker 1: the possibility of nuclear war, and of course this wasn't,
Speaker 1: and it was the sixties one. You know, a lot
Speaker 1: of people were kind of concerned about that possibility. Still
Speaker 1: slightly concerned about it today. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: more concerned about like asteroid impacts. But we'll talk about
Speaker 1: that in another episode. Yeah, so I've already talked about
Speaker 1: Jim Jones, James Warren Jones. He preached the gospel at
Speaker 1: the Myrtles, kind of like it's all about equality and
Speaker 1: people helping each other. And he was opposed to racism,
Speaker 1: and he was kind of more and more he got
Speaker 1: more stridently sort of socialist. You can blame the rich, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I blame the rich for all the ills of the
Speaker 1: world and stuff. And in the early days to Temple
Speaker 1: really did do some good works. They would take in
Speaker 1: drug addicts and straighten them out, you know, And of
Speaker 1: course that's kind of like what the scientologists do too,
Speaker 1: So I don't know, maybe maybe they had an alter
Speaker 1: your motive there. They also encouraged adoption. They encouraged all
Speaker 1: their members to adopt kids if they if they could
Speaker 1: afford it. Jim Jones and his wife adopted five kids,
Speaker 1: So it's a pass all the kids. That's a whole
Speaker 1: lot of kids, and they also had one of their own,
Speaker 1: Stephen Jones, who turned out to be kind of even
Speaker 1: a bigger psycho than his dad. That's so weird. Sorry.
Speaker 1: Growing up next to me, there was a family that
Speaker 1: moved into this very large house and they were Evangelical Christians,
Speaker 1: and they had one child and they adopted five more.
Speaker 1: Whether it was their name Jones, no, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: tell you what I'm guessing basically this just hearing that,
Speaker 1: reading that kind of Yeah, that's right, that's weird. They were.
Speaker 1: They were a little creepy. They were definitely was definitely
Speaker 1: Flanders esk creepy, creepy way. Yeah, anyway, sorry, back to
Speaker 1: the start. Okay, so the Mills, even though they were
Speaker 1: at this time still named Myrtle, the Myrtles, are the
Speaker 1: are the Mills? They changed their entire names. Yeah, first
Speaker 1: and last names. Okay, got it. Yeah, clarifying, So from
Speaker 1: this point forward, are we calling them the Myrtles or
Speaker 1: the Mills. I'm just going to call them the Mills.
Speaker 1: That's probably a good way to go. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: so too. Jennie Mills eventually became a head of the
Speaker 1: temple's publications office and and Al served as the official
Speaker 1: church photographer among the things, because I think they still
Speaker 1: kept their day jobs, or I'm pretty sure Al did.
Speaker 1: And even though the Mills liked the temple and they
Speaker 1: liked Jim Jones, he was pretty authoritarian even back then.
Speaker 1: And that was the thing that just grew and grew
Speaker 1: and grew. It's just time went by. He just slowly,
Speaker 1: just slowly, just amped up, papped up the nuttiness. He
Speaker 1: also had a lot of strange rules. Everybody was required
Speaker 1: to write out and sign a confession to some heinous
Speaker 1: crime or another like a murder, rape, robbery or something
Speaker 1: to just like whatever, then sign it and then they
Speaker 1: had to and then hand to hand a confession over
Speaker 1: to Jones for safekeeping. Well that's a good way to
Speaker 1: control the crap out of when you have a signed
Speaker 1: confession from somebody. They do this or I'm giving this
Speaker 1: to the cops. But I also wonder if it was
Speaker 1: just if it I'm just trying to figure out how
Speaker 1: that was pitched to get people to do it, and
Speaker 1: wondering if that was something that he pitched as this
Speaker 1: is a form of confession. Maybe you know you're you
Speaker 1: didn't do this particular thing, but it's going to free
Speaker 1: your soul or wipe the path the slate clean for you.
Speaker 1: I mean, just not to draw too many how much
Speaker 1: do you How do you get people to do it?
Speaker 1: I think you know, not to draw too many parallels.
Speaker 1: But you know, we've talked about the Scientolo. The Church
Speaker 1: of Scientology gets people to sign contracts for literally all
Speaker 1: of the rest of their lives for eternity. So that's
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you pitch that without I mean,
Speaker 1: there's some stuff that people do for religion or belief
Speaker 1: just that is unexplainable to most of us. And I
Speaker 1: and again we've had this conversation. I'll probably hold back
Speaker 1: on a bunch of that today because I just it
Speaker 1: baffles me. Yeah, I agree though, Yeah, he probably did
Speaker 1: pitch it somewhere than I I want some black mail material,
Speaker 1: But I sure you didn't put it out quite like that.
Speaker 1: Not Yeah, but still, you know it would strike me
Speaker 1: as a little bit odd. Yeah, I wouldn't do it,
Speaker 1: but I don't think it was. You are. Also, every
Speaker 1: time you went to church, I don't know what they
Speaker 1: called it, they called it mass or whatever they come
Speaker 1: you went to the temple. Yeah, every time you went
Speaker 1: to the temple um you were required to sign a
Speaker 1: blank sheet of paper, sign your name on a blank
Speaker 1: sheet of paper. And they said it was for attendance
Speaker 1: taking purposes. But couldn't she sign, like just have a
Speaker 1: piece of paper that everybody signed their names. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and instead of one sheet of paper per se, and
Speaker 1: for clarity's sake, the people's temple. What denomination were they
Speaker 1: even strenuously connected to? Were they? They were Christians? Weren't they? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I can't remember what branch, but they really kind of
Speaker 1: kind of evolved away from Christianity, right, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to brand whatever they were, but they started out as
Speaker 1: a quote unquote Christian, Yeah, yeah, but then became like
Speaker 1: un Christian because towards the end they're saying they didn't
Speaker 1: believe in God. Yeah. Well that's yeah, that's that's a
Speaker 1: whole another ball of wax. But yeah, but they were,
Speaker 1: you know, they moved to San Francisco, and they were
Speaker 1: preaching the gospel and they were trying to do good things.
Speaker 1: They were doing a few good things at the beginning.
Speaker 1: At the beginning, presumably these sheets of paper you could
Speaker 1: type of confession in over the signature. Later on, so yeah,
Speaker 1: there could be. That's probably whatever. And people said that
Speaker 1: they signed just dozens and dozens of these things. Well,
Speaker 1: and then why even make them sign a like, why
Speaker 1: even tell them that you're writing these confessions? Yeah? Why
Speaker 1: not just do it on the downlow? Yeah? Okay, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't understand a lot of this, so
Speaker 1: I guess I should just asking questions. I mean, this
Speaker 1: entire episode, as I said, it's just crazy, just so
Speaker 1: we're that something crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also the
Speaker 1: physical abuse started at one point. If you violated any rule,
Speaker 1: and there were lots and lots of rules, then you
Speaker 1: were beaten with paddles or with boards or whatever. Yeah, paddles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Jones loved a good padlin. Yeah, I know. And that's
Speaker 1: what caused the Mills to leave the People's Temple. In
Speaker 1: their daughter, Linda was beaten seventy times seventy smacks with
Speaker 1: the paddle I guess, pretty hard. And they were upset
Speaker 1: about that, so they left. Do you remember why? No? No,
Speaker 1: I never actually heard what the actual offense was. Okay,
Speaker 1: The offense was that their daughter had a friend that
Speaker 1: Jones didn't like, and she ran up and gave her
Speaker 1: a hug and Jones again didn't like her, branded her
Speaker 1: as a lesbian and basically was punishing her for hanging
Speaker 1: out with a lesbian who could corrupt her. I don't
Speaker 1: know if this girl was in fact gay, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It's that Jones decided that she was, and
Speaker 1: because he had said, don't hang out with that girl,
Speaker 1: and she probably went, oh my god, I haven't seen
Speaker 1: anyone forever on over gavel a hug and got spotted
Speaker 1: by Jones himself or one of the cronies. She got
Speaker 1: thrown over his knee and beaten with a paddle thrown
Speaker 1: over his knee. Well, I don't know if she actually
Speaker 1: was bent over his knee, but she's seventy or seventy
Speaker 1: five times, and that's that's a lot of whooping day,
Speaker 1: it really is. Yeah, once is enough to set me right. Oh.
Speaker 1: I remember as a kid getting in trouble and getting hit.
Speaker 1: You know, I'd earned five whatever I did, earned five
Speaker 1: smacks and that was enough. I didn't do anything for days, yes, ma'am, No, ma'am, yes, mama, no, mama. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm like you. I wasn't as a child. I've got
Speaker 1: a belt in the other room. Can you know, Okay,
Speaker 1: I got a paddle. Not interested. Let's hear more about
Speaker 1: the Mills, the mid family. So they left, and from
Speaker 1: the temple's point of view, they defected and Jones. Jones
Speaker 1: was not cool with people leaving the temple. Yeah, strangely enough, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he said that, and it's got more and more frequent
Speaker 1: as time went on. He said that the factors from
Speaker 1: the temple should be killed, but most especially the ones
Speaker 1: that should be killed are the ones who publicly criticize
Speaker 1: the temple, which the Mills did. Yeah, the Mills did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit more about that in a
Speaker 1: minute here. A few de factors did die are kind
Speaker 1: of mysterious circumstances. The most mysterious one of alls, most
Speaker 1: of them. Actually, it's kind of hard to say, but
Speaker 1: there was one guy named Robert Houston Jr. Who was
Speaker 1: a railroad world worker for his day job, and he
Speaker 1: was a member from sixty nine to seventy six. Uh specifically,
Speaker 1: October two, nineteen seventy six, he called his ex wife
Speaker 1: and told her that he was leaving the People's Temple.
Speaker 1: Three days later, on October five, his mangled body was
Speaker 1: found on the railroad tracks where he worked. It was
Speaker 1: listed as a train accident. But that's quite a coincidence.
Speaker 1: Is a huge coincidence. And he was in San Francisco
Speaker 1: where the temple was, Yeah, because the temple was still
Speaker 1: in San Francisco at that time. Yeah, Okay, yeah, they
Speaker 1: didn't They didn't leave the States until nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 1: But we'll get and actually it's still maintained a presence
Speaker 1: in San Francisco even after they moved to Jonestown. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's a strange one. There was another one who
Speaker 1: was found hung in her garage and that was ruled
Speaker 1: a suicide, but her son, Daniel believes that she wanted
Speaker 1: to get out of the temple and she and that
Speaker 1: she didn't kill herself. That was Maxine Harp. Maxine Harp,
Speaker 1: her children were placed in a temple, temple foster homes
Speaker 1: and a lot of welfare it was collected after she died.
Speaker 1: So there, I suppose there's a motive. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: about that that one. It's hard to say. Probably not.
Speaker 1: That's another one who had a heart attack occupation that
Speaker 1: they she but she was in her sixties. Um and
Speaker 1: it's been said some people have accused the temple of
Speaker 1: putting on giving her drugs to induce a heart attack.
Speaker 1: Sounds substantiated. I think her name was truth Heart. And
Speaker 1: again again it's hard to say. The next one was
Speaker 1: John had He was a guy with mental issues. He
Speaker 1: got a ten thousand dollar insurance settlement which he used
Speaker 1: to buy silver bullion. Excuse me, a sil silver bullion.
Speaker 1: That's what you make, you know, silver soup. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: he bought some bully and ten thousand bucks with a
Speaker 1: bully and apparently at the suggestion of a temple member,
Speaker 1: and then the same temple member persuaded to join the temple,
Speaker 1: and of course when he joined, he turned the bullion
Speaker 1: over to Jones. Three weeks later, he jumped or fell
Speaker 1: off of a three story warehouse and died. It was
Speaker 1: ruled suicide. Maybe maybe not. Yeah, he did mental issues. Yeah.
Speaker 1: These are all kind of like very convenient, yeah, but
Speaker 1: slightly questionable if anything hinky was going on. Yeah, last
Speaker 1: there was a guy named Chris Lewis who worked as
Speaker 1: security for the temple. He actually came to the end
Speaker 1: of the temple as a drug addict and he was
Speaker 1: one of the success cases, but he wind up joining
Speaker 1: the temple, and he became one of the one of
Speaker 1: the thugs, one of the enforcers, and there was he
Speaker 1: was security. Yeah, he was security, but you know, you
Speaker 1: were things like he would he would call people up
Speaker 1: who had left the temple and threatened them and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. There's a lot of that going on. I
Speaker 1: was reading about that in the FBI file. So he's
Speaker 1: kind of a militant, would that be the right word. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, fiercely loyal to the temple. Uh. Some
Speaker 1: people have said that he had become kind of a liability,
Speaker 1: like a little pr liability for the temple. And so
Speaker 1: he was found dead in late nineteen seventy seven, although
Speaker 1: the police concluded that it was either drug related or
Speaker 1: some sort of vengeance killing, but they did they did
Speaker 1: rule it a murder. Yeah, yeah, it was that. Yeah
Speaker 1: it was. But that's so again, there's no real evidence there,
Speaker 1: but it's it's nd of weird. A lot of people
Speaker 1: seem to be dying. Yeah, except for Robert Houston Jr.
Speaker 1: Which I think really is suspicious. All these others there's
Speaker 1: really not much evidence. But given all the incredibly murderous
Speaker 1: things that happened later, I wouldn't entirely ruin rule it out.
Speaker 1: So in ACTE, this is when the Myrtles changed their
Speaker 1: name to Alan Jennie Mills, and that's when they founded
Speaker 1: a group called the Concerned Relatives, which brought together They
Speaker 1: got brought together a lot of former temple members who
Speaker 1: were critical of the temple. They held press conferences. You
Speaker 1: know that Jones just hated these people. They had press conferences.
Speaker 1: They filed lawsuits on child custody and property disputes because
Speaker 1: of course a lot of the kids were still in
Speaker 1: the custody of the temple. A lot of people there
Speaker 1: were people that wanted their kids back, a lot of
Speaker 1: the temple had a lot of people's property. They wanted
Speaker 1: their property back. They also lobbied Congress, and they eventually
Speaker 1: came to the intention of Congressman Leo Ryan of California.
Speaker 1: And if you're familiar with this case, you know who
Speaker 1: Leo Ryan is. But we're we're gonna tell you more
Speaker 1: about him in a few minutes here. In the summer
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy seven, an article appeared in New West
Speaker 1: magazine which apparently they interviewed a whole bunch of former
Speaker 1: Temple members and there was a lot of dirt in
Speaker 1: this magazine article about Temple, and this has been listed
Speaker 1: as the cause, the precipitating cause for them to pick
Speaker 1: up and leave the US and moved to Guiana where
Speaker 1: Jonestown was now Jonestown. They had they had actually been
Speaker 1: building since nineteen seventy four and they had at least
Speaker 1: several thousand acres of jungle from the Guiana government and
Speaker 1: they had built a bunch of stuff and built a
Speaker 1: bunch of a bunch of buildings and little little tiny
Speaker 1: houses for most of the worker peace to be and
Speaker 1: then and of course a much nicer accommodation for Jim Jones.
Speaker 1: Of course they had a big open air pavilion, pavilion
Speaker 1: in the center of camp, which is where you know,
Speaker 1: people would go for to like to eat, and they
Speaker 1: go for things like White Knights, which is when they
Speaker 1: had get to sit around and listen to Jim Jones
Speaker 1: ramble on randomly for hours. That stuff. Well, no, that
Speaker 1: wasn't what the White Knights were. That was a regular
Speaker 1: basis for just the White Knights were crisis crisis talks, right,
Speaker 1: they were. They were crisis Knights where you were given
Speaker 1: one of four decisions as a group to make. You
Speaker 1: could commit suicide, you could fight back, you could run
Speaker 1: and suddenly I can't think of what the fourth option was.
Speaker 1: I remember there was four choices in the group communally
Speaker 1: had to decide. Dropped down and curl up into a ball.
Speaker 1: Oh that was it. Surrender? Yeah, that was actually surrender. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad. I don't I'm not part of a weird,
Speaker 1: crazy cult. Yeah. Well, as far as I know, did
Speaker 1: you find out why the Guiana and Guineas government gave
Speaker 1: them the crown they gave him? No? I didn't figure
Speaker 1: that one out why they did, but they had to
Speaker 1: go through a whole bunch of red tape to do it,
Speaker 1: and evidently they were. The government wasn't on board with
Speaker 1: doing it at first. Are you talking about the temple
Speaker 1: women who did favors? No, no, not at all, not
Speaker 1: at all. They gave them a chunk of jungle land
Speaker 1: that was basically useless from the government's perspective. But here's
Speaker 1: the great thing. What's the other country that's on the border, Venezuela.
Speaker 1: And so are you hinting that perhaps that was it
Speaker 1: was like a handy way point for trucks modeling. No, No,
Speaker 1: there was some friction between those two governments at the time,
Speaker 1: and Guiana said, well, if we have this huge white
Speaker 1: American population living right next to the border, they're not
Speaker 1: going to invade because if they invade, they're gonna kill
Speaker 1: all these people, and then the American government's gonna get
Speaker 1: mad and come in and wipe them out. So it
Speaker 1: was it was kind of a ploy to to put
Speaker 1: Jonestown between themselves and and at a time of political enemy.
Speaker 1: I see, that makes sense, especially if there's a border dispute. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's it. It was. It was totally a border
Speaker 1: issues and there was there's a whole long list of
Speaker 1: stuff that was going on there. But that's that's the
Speaker 1: simple version of it. Those crazy South Americans after they
Speaker 1: migrated to Jonestown, the concern relatives stepped up their campaign.
Speaker 1: So this is after the People's Temple moved to I
Speaker 1: guess I did put that right after the People's Temple
Speaker 1: moved to Jonestown, because they moved the majority of their congregation.
Speaker 1: They moved about a thousand people down there, and you
Speaker 1: would be concerned, especially if there were you know, any
Speaker 1: kind of questionable things, yeah, or like kids that you
Speaker 1: wanted back, or property you wanted back. It becomes way
Speaker 1: harder to get all that stuff back. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: really I think that's one of the reasons that Jones
Speaker 1: took them all down there beyond the reach of US law.
Speaker 1: So they accused Jones and the temple accurately of virtual
Speaker 1: holding everybody their prisoner. They said that it was pretty
Speaker 1: much a concentration camp. And uh, frankly, in reading the
Speaker 1: FBI s files their interviews with people, that's a whole
Speaker 1: lot of those people said, and he said it was
Speaker 1: like living in a concentration camp. Temple though they said
Speaker 1: that this is again the concerned relatives said that the
Speaker 1: temple confiscated everyone's passports and their money, which would which
Speaker 1: would make it impossible for them to leave, and that
Speaker 1: all male outgoing and incoming was censored, and that everybody
Speaker 1: accept the elite, looking at the guys with the guns
Speaker 1: who were the guards kept them all aside, were forced
Speaker 1: to work twelve hour days and field fed really crappy food.
Speaker 1: Mostly what they ate was rice and gravy. Yeah, not
Speaker 1: a not a healthy balanced diet. Yeah. And also people
Speaker 1: were subjected to harsh punishment for very small infractions of
Speaker 1: the rules. Everything the considered relative and relatives said was true,
Speaker 1: and we talked about before. You know, Jim Jones would
Speaker 1: get on stage and he would talk for an hour
Speaker 1: to three at a time. Oh, sometimes end of the
Speaker 1: wee hours. Yeah, you had to go after are working
Speaker 1: a twelve hour day board and listen, and I bet
Speaker 1: you got beat if you fell asleep. I imagine falling
Speaker 1: asleep was highly frowned upon. Yeah, I can kind of
Speaker 1: see why you would drink the kool aid after months,
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, you know, at some point you kind
Speaker 1: of hit that point where you're like, you know what,
Speaker 1: honestly though, death is better than this, So we no,
Speaker 1: I mean there's no awe about it. No, No, you
Speaker 1: hit a point. We know. I can understand. I mean,
Speaker 1: I were kind of making fun of the state of mind,
Speaker 1: but I can't. I see what you're getting at being
Speaker 1: genuine when I say that, So you know, I'm genuinely
Speaker 1: saying that if I were subjected to this, I would
Speaker 1: probably try to kill myself. I would try to escape myself.
Speaker 1: And there were people who tried to escape there. There
Speaker 1: was a small group of people put together a little
Speaker 1: a little conspiracy, and they tried. They took some clothes
Speaker 1: and stuff and put in bundles and prepositioned them out
Speaker 1: in the jungle and stuff, so they didn't sense supplies
Speaker 1: and things like that. So when they're all ready to
Speaker 1: finally make their escape, then they could all just like
Speaker 1: you know, beat feed into the jungle for them. It
Speaker 1: didn't work out. Yeah, and unfortunately, what are the reasons
Speaker 1: it didn't work out? Is? Um, Well, let's get back
Speaker 1: to Congressman Ryan. The concerned relatives finally persuaded Congressman Ryan
Speaker 1: to go to Jonestown to investigate and maybe, if possible,
Speaker 1: get some of their relatives out of there. So he
Speaker 1: went down to Guiana along with his assistant and a
Speaker 1: bunch of journalists and also a bunch of relatives, and
Speaker 1: in the end only four of them got to go
Speaker 1: along and go into Jonestown, only for the relatives concerned,
Speaker 1: because the rest of the whole entourage was the journalists
Speaker 1: and the congressman and and also a lawyer for the
Speaker 1: for the temple called named Charles Gary. And I read
Speaker 1: his did he read his statement to the FBI? I
Speaker 1: didn't find it. That's such a huge fun Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was interesting. Yeah, they were. There are actually two
Speaker 1: attorneys there that two attorneys there that day, there was
Speaker 1: Charles Gary and Mark Lane, and their their story was
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. Actually, um, I'll tell you a little
Speaker 1: bit more about that, but prior to that, the Congressman
Speaker 1: is in the entourage arriving in Jonestown. Of course this
Speaker 1: came out in statements that all that everybody gave the FBI.
Speaker 1: They were told and there was no one certain terms,
Speaker 1: to act really happy, don't talk to these people if
Speaker 1: you could possibly help it. Just go about your your
Speaker 1: duties and just act like you're really thrilled to be here.
Speaker 1: And of course you know, and of course they got
Speaker 1: better food. That was one of the nice things about
Speaker 1: having visitors come, because then suddenly they would get a
Speaker 1: little meat for a change, and not just rice and
Speaker 1: rice engraving and so yeah, and and and so they
Speaker 1: put on this whole dog and pony chow chow to
Speaker 1: make then and they actually had Ryan a bit fooled
Speaker 1: at first. Uh. And then at that point he told
Speaker 1: people that he was there if possible, if anybody wanted
Speaker 1: to leave, to take them with him if you want to.
Speaker 1: And so you'd encouraged people to let him know that
Speaker 1: anybody wanted to leave. And meantime, uh, some of the
Speaker 1: journalists that were there, we're getting little note handed to
Speaker 1: them from people who were living in Jonestown and Jones
Speaker 1: or something notes in the order I want to get
Speaker 1: the hell out of here. Please. When did Ryan? When
Speaker 1: was Ryan in Jonestown? He was there. He arrived on
Speaker 1: November seventeenth, nineteen seventy eight, which is a Friday. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then uh, things really kind of went all to
Speaker 1: hell the next day on November eighteen, because yeah, I
Speaker 1: was I was just sitting here thinking. I can't remember
Speaker 1: if he was here for two or three days? Yeah,
Speaker 1: two days. Yeah. So at this point he realized that
Speaker 1: there were people who wanted out, not everybody was drilled
Speaker 1: and happy to be there. And yeah, and he told
Speaker 1: Jones this, that people wanted out. And I believe the
Speaker 1: number of people that wanted that Soul said they wanted
Speaker 1: to go out was ultimately fourteen, but the number actually
Speaker 1: was really a lot higher. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people were afraid to speak out. Yeah, yeah, I understandably. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I told you about the attorneys Mark Lane and
Speaker 1: Charles Gary. Those guys actually didn't have a good relationship
Speaker 1: at first, but it's sort of got better as as
Speaker 1: And at one point they took a little walk. I
Speaker 1: think it was Friday afternoon, it might have been Saturday,
Speaker 1: but and I got this from Gary's statement to the FBI,
Speaker 1: and Mark Lane said to him and says, don't tell
Speaker 1: anybody this, but there are a lot of people in
Speaker 1: this place who want out. You mean, Gary said to Lane.
Speaker 1: Lane said that to Gary Gary, Gary was totally Gary
Speaker 1: hadn't spent a lot of time in Jonestown and he
Speaker 1: was totally totally had the wool pulled over his eyes
Speaker 1: about this whole thing. So Lane was also a lawyer
Speaker 1: for the temple. Yeah, he was. That was one of
Speaker 1: the reasons they didn't get along is that Gary thought
Speaker 1: he was the council for the temple and the found
Speaker 1: out that that they found out that they had another
Speaker 1: lawyer working, and then that really that really picked him off.
Speaker 1: Time eventually got over it and they wound up actually
Speaker 1: escaping together. But the so Lane told Gary that at
Speaker 1: least a hundred and fifty people wanted out really bad,
Speaker 1: and maybe he's thinking maybe his highest three hundred people
Speaker 1: and how many people were living there at the time,
Speaker 1: about the thousand, Yeah, roughly a thousand. Seems like maybe
Speaker 1: a thousand actually wanted out. I mean, if you were
Speaker 1: one of the elite, you know, you got to you
Speaker 1: got to carry a gun and push people around it
Speaker 1: you got better food, and you didn't. But how many, realistically,
Speaker 1: like what percentage of them were the elite right at
Speaker 1: the most? Yeah, not even probably more like about five
Speaker 1: percent probably didn't want out. Okay, let's let's let's delve
Speaker 1: into this a little bit as well. There is a
Speaker 1: part of the masses that were happy. They're not all
Speaker 1: of them, but happy. One of the reasons that those
Speaker 1: people were happy and content is that they were on drunks, which, Joe,
Speaker 1: do you remember what it was that they were feeding people.
Speaker 1: I keep wanting to call it thorsen, and I know
Speaker 1: that's not it. It's it was it was something to
Speaker 1: keep them calm. Yeah. Yeah. And then and of course
Speaker 1: if you if you can, committed a serious infraction, they
Speaker 1: would send you that They send you off to this
Speaker 1: this house where you'd basically be heavily sedated for weeks
Speaker 1: at times sometimes. So people were super drugged up. They
Speaker 1: were functional, but they were super drugged up. And so
Speaker 1: they were happy, it's okay, no big deals. While they
Speaker 1: may have in a sober state of mind, wanted out
Speaker 1: in their state of mind, when everybody showed up, there
Speaker 1: was a portion of them where the drugs were seriously
Speaker 1: doing their job. And also also people didn't dare. A
Speaker 1: lot of people didn't there confide to one another two
Speaker 1: because Jones encouraged them all to inform in each other,
Speaker 1: So you don't know who to trust. Yeah, I remember
Speaker 1: the remember those people, and hopefully I remember remembering this,
Speaker 1: remembering this correctly. But the people who pre pre positioned
Speaker 1: some stuff in the jungle for for their escape, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they finally had to go. They didn't tell their
Speaker 1: kids about it because they were afraid their kids would
Speaker 1: inform on them. And so and then they go to
Speaker 1: get their kids and tell the kids, Hey, you know,
Speaker 1: we we gotta get out of We're leaving that. Sorry
Speaker 1: we didn't tell you before, but now we're going. So
Speaker 1: we're going down because it's like, oh, thank god, I've
Speaker 1: been wanting to say something, but I was afraid you
Speaker 1: to inform on me. Yeah. But then but then Ryan
Speaker 1: shows up and he's saying, hey, anybody want to leave
Speaker 1: and these guys decided to throw it with Ryan instead.
Speaker 1: Well it's probably looked like a life raft. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: definitely turns out it had lots of holes. Yeah, bullet holes. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Back to what what Mark Layne said to Gary that
Speaker 1: Charles Gary, Uh, if he's right, at least probably at
Speaker 1: least a hundred and fifty people were murdered because if
Speaker 1: they were forced to drink cyanide against their will, So
Speaker 1: we're talking the whole thing wasn't just a mass suicide,
Speaker 1: it was a mass murder. Also, keeps deal, there's tons
Speaker 1: of detail about this, and if you want to read
Speaker 1: the FBI file, just send me an email and I'll
Speaker 1: send you the link and post it. Yeah, well it's
Speaker 1: that's a hard part. Is said. I don't think we
Speaker 1: can actually post the FBI files, not because I know
Speaker 1: we can supposed to link to them, but we can
Speaker 1: waiting through a lot of Yeah, be prepared to search
Speaker 1: through hundreds of documents that are hundreds of pages thick.
Speaker 1: In fairness, I kind of have the impression that our
Speaker 1: listeners would enjoy something like that. Oh no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just telling people. Yeah, well, we'll send
Speaker 1: you the link. But be prepared to be over well
Speaker 1: hours reading. I know Joe Diday's it's yeah yeah, So
Speaker 1: I hate to cut this short, but the whole story
Speaker 1: of them leaving the temple and getting out to the
Speaker 1: air strip where they were will be picked up by
Speaker 1: two airplanes the fourteen defectors, right, yeah, and plus the
Speaker 1: entourage for Ryan. Yeah. Yeah. The whole story is a fascinating,
Speaker 1: spell binding tail in and of itself. What happened at
Speaker 1: the airstrip and everything, and what happened on the way
Speaker 1: out to the airstrip. But I'm going to summarize it
Speaker 1: really briefly. And I was reading that and I read
Speaker 1: I read that story, like I say, interviewed all the
Speaker 1: people that survived, and so I read that whole story
Speaker 1: again and again and again, but told from a different
Speaker 1: point of view, and it's very rashavon, like everyone was
Speaker 1: kind of different. Some of them were a lot different,
Speaker 1: and of course they all did different things, like one
Speaker 1: guy ran off into the jungle and hid and just
Speaker 1: washed in horrors what was happening. But anyway, back to
Speaker 1: our thing, that the airstrip was six miles away from
Speaker 1: Jonestown and they got all the way out there, and
Speaker 1: then they were dropped off by a truck from Jonestown
Speaker 1: and which turned and left, and their planes had not
Speaker 1: yet arrived. But then pretty seen, the small one shows up. Uh,
Speaker 1: then the larger one shows up. It's time to get
Speaker 1: on board one of the Uh. One of the guys
Speaker 1: that was there was a guy named Joe Wilson who
Speaker 1: was head of security there and he apparently had he
Speaker 1: was he was not defecting. But another guy who was
Speaker 1: a plane, his name was Larry Layton, claimed that he
Speaker 1: did wanted a fact, he wanted to leave. Joe Wilson
Speaker 1: apparently gave late in the gun. So Layton got aboard
Speaker 1: the small plane and then he started shooting people. And
Speaker 1: at this time a tractor shows up from Jonestown telling
Speaker 1: a trailer with a bunch of guys on it with
Speaker 1: guns and automatic rifles. Yeah seven not all they were
Speaker 1: automatic rifles. Yeah. And they showed up with guns and
Speaker 1: started shooting the place up. Real good congressmen. Ryan was killed,
Speaker 1: along with a bunch of other people, several of the journalists.
Speaker 1: Several of the journalists were killed, a lot of people
Speaker 1: were wounded. Also, some people escaped into the jungle and
Speaker 1: there wasn't there one person who hid like under a
Speaker 1: house that happened actually in Jonestown. That was in Jonestown. Yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. I'm jumping. Yeah, that's it's okay.
Speaker 1: There's so many this is one of those things kind
Speaker 1: of just a spiral. Yeah, yeah, there there's so many
Speaker 1: individual stories it's hard to keep him straight. Yeah, and uh,
Speaker 1: fascinating story. But anyway, Yes, some people survived the Congress.
Speaker 1: That's why I said there was an assassination I considered
Speaker 1: to be an assassination the congressmen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 1: the whole thing was really tragic. The shoots all left
Speaker 1: and went back to Jonestown where the infamous mass murder
Speaker 1: suicide took place. It was really gruesome, especially the babies.
Speaker 1: They did the babies first. Yeah, yeah, right, for I mean,
Speaker 1: I think we're kind of making the assumption that people
Speaker 1: do know what happened, and we've kind of alluded to it.
Speaker 1: But I think in no uncertain terms we can say,
Speaker 1: right that the people that were members of this cult
Speaker 1: or whether willing or not, almost all of them drank
Speaker 1: a kool Aid cyanide mixture and died and died. And
Speaker 1: maybe I think a few of them got shot. Um
Speaker 1: they I mean, you know, I think that we were
Speaker 1: going to talk about this a little bit, but you know,
Speaker 1: it was poured down babies throats. Yeah, people were held
Speaker 1: at gunpoint, told to drink this liquid if they wouldn't
Speaker 1: if they refused. You know, there were people who had
Speaker 1: needle marks in them in places where it couldn't have
Speaker 1: been self injected, like in the back, shoulder blade. And
Speaker 1: it's speculated that maybe the needle marks were they were
Speaker 1: held down, or the needle marks were from them giving
Speaker 1: them more of something because they were having such an
Speaker 1: adverse reaction. So it's not a smooth, peaceful transition. It's
Speaker 1: a giant seizure. So let's just get them out and
Speaker 1: due him in. I don't think cyanide is a super
Speaker 1: pleasant no. Well, but it wasn't a straight cyanide concoction.
Speaker 1: There was other stuff, but that makes it even worse
Speaker 1: a little bit great, But so I just wanted to say,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we're kind of making the assumption
Speaker 1: that everybody knows, but I think it's unsafe to make
Speaker 1: that assumption. I'll be the horrible person and just say
Speaker 1: that's what happened. And a lot of the murder suicide
Speaker 1: that we're talking about. Yeah, and so over nine hundred
Speaker 1: people died. Part of the part of the description of
Speaker 1: what happened there is next to a guy named O'Dell Rhodes.
Speaker 1: He's the one who snuck off, smart guy hit under
Speaker 1: a hit in her building and witnessed a lot of
Speaker 1: this stuff. It must have been really fun to watch.
Speaker 1: I'm sure say he felt glad to be where he
Speaker 1: was and not out there drinking the kool aid. I
Speaker 1: still can't imagine though, I would have been found because
Speaker 1: of the sounds of mehrking my guts on just but
Speaker 1: also just like crying, yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Some of
Speaker 1: the other like the one of the accounts of one
Speaker 1: of the guys who escaped when they started shooting up
Speaker 1: the airplanes at the airstrip, he ran off to the
Speaker 1: jungle about fifty yards away, and from the brush he
Speaker 1: looked back to see what was going on. The guys
Speaker 1: with the with the rifles were blowing people's brains out
Speaker 1: at point blank range, spending finishing off the wounded. Well,
Speaker 1: that had to be pretty horrifying to watch too. If
Speaker 1: you want to hear anything disturbing We've talked about the
Speaker 1: White Night tapes, so those were preparation for something going wrong,
Speaker 1: and this the shooting of Congress and Ryan, that's something
Speaker 1: going wrong. That last tape of Jim Jones is available
Speaker 1: on the internet, and if you want to listen, it's
Speaker 1: forty five minutes long. If you want to listen to something,
Speaker 1: it's kind of creepy and kind of disturbing, but gives
Speaker 1: you a pretty good perspective of what they were thinking.
Speaker 1: Listen to that thing. I skimmed through bits and pieces
Speaker 1: of it. It's really to me hard to listen to,
Speaker 1: but it'll give you an idea their frame of mind. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just want o crazy. But anyway, yeah, well making sure
Speaker 1: that says that. Yeah, just a slide aside. The two attorneys,
Speaker 1: Mark Lane and Charles Gary, after after Leo Ryan left
Speaker 1: with all the factors that Jones was obviously he pretended
Speaker 1: at the time, he said goodbye, shook their hands, gave
Speaker 1: him back their passport. She pretended to be okay with it,
Speaker 1: but he was actually, of course not okay with it. Furious,
Speaker 1: I believe, yeah, And he said that. The two attorneys says, you, guys,
Speaker 1: I want you to go to the East Guesthouse. That's
Speaker 1: like in the east side of the compound, which is
Speaker 1: the house that Jones original they lived in at first
Speaker 1: until his final quarters were built. Says, you guys need
Speaker 1: to go to the East West house. Everybody is really mad,
Speaker 1: and the attorneys are going and what are you talking about.
Speaker 1: People don't look all that mad to me, to us,
Speaker 1: and says they're really mad. They're really mad. You just
Speaker 1: better go there, and so they're like, okay. They took
Speaker 1: their bags and they and they had it off to
Speaker 1: the east side of Jonestown. It's on the edge of
Speaker 1: the Jonestown and sat in there for a while pondering
Speaker 1: what to do. Then they looked out the window and
Speaker 1: they see a couple of guys, uh security guys coming
Speaker 1: into the hut next door to their house. And they
Speaker 1: came back out with a couple of rifles, and then
Speaker 1: they came over to their their to their house, and
Speaker 1: actually they weren't threatening, they were friendly, but they were
Speaker 1: talking about how we're gonna they're going to commit revolutionary
Speaker 1: suicide and all this stuff, and it would say it's
Speaker 1: a blow for the workers cause in the idy got
Speaker 1: and and the lawyers say, okay, that's that's cool. You
Speaker 1: might want to think about something a little less drastic maybe.
Speaker 1: And and after they left, these guys left and headed
Speaker 1: off to the pavilion, which is where it was gathering
Speaker 1: for the big, big show that the attorneys like looked
Speaker 1: at each other and said, we should get out of here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And they snuck away and went into the jung Mill
Speaker 1: And they spent the night in the jungle hiding there.
Speaker 1: There's some gunshots and things like that, but yeah, they survived.
Speaker 1: Smart move. Yeah, I definitely would have booked. Yeah, back
Speaker 1: to the Mills. Afterward of what happened at Jonestown got
Speaker 1: back to the US, the Mills family and a lot
Speaker 1: of other concerned relatives and defectors, et cetera. Were put
Speaker 1: under police protection because, of course, as I said, not
Speaker 1: every temple member died, and the ones who survived a
Speaker 1: lot of them were the worst of the worst. Are
Speaker 1: seeing the worst of the worst, not the worst of
Speaker 1: the worst? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The ones who didn't
Speaker 1: take the poison where I think, for the most part,
Speaker 1: the ones who forced everybody else too. And obviously they
Speaker 1: weren't as committed to the church apparently not, and they
Speaker 1: might have they might have rationalized it to themselves. All.
Speaker 1: You know that the Reverend Jones really wanted me to
Speaker 1: offer myself. But you know, I'm gonna tell myself that
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stay alive to get revenge on all those
Speaker 1: nasty defectors that could cause didn't Jones die? Yeah, drank
Speaker 1: the kool a too. He shot him at the same time, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: he died everyone else so I think his wife drank
Speaker 1: the kool aid and in the end he ended up
Speaker 1: taking his own life with a gun. Yeah. I went
Speaker 1: to the FBI files on Jonestown anyway and found the
Speaker 1: FBI's list of the most fanatical supporters of Jim Jones. Well,
Speaker 1: this is compiled from the testimony of the survivors that
Speaker 1: they interviewed. I also went to the files to try
Speaker 1: to find out who lived and where they wound up.
Speaker 1: And some of them actually lived and wound up back
Speaker 1: in the US. Yeah. Starting with Terry Buford. She was
Speaker 1: I think probably his one of the top people in
Speaker 1: this organization, and she one interview, he said interview, he
Speaker 1: said that she is the most dangerous person alive. Many others,
Speaker 1: many others agreed with that. She's though she was one
Speaker 1: of the elite. Gun carries the elite. Yeah, I one
Speaker 1: of the elite and apparently means statistic dangerous back in
Speaker 1: the US. Well, so, just as an interesting little point,
Speaker 1: right that in this time it was a lot of
Speaker 1: mixed races that were part of Jonestown. And also the
Speaker 1: fact that there were a lot of women in high positions.
Speaker 1: That's odd for anything of this time. So I'll just
Speaker 1: go ahead and point that out. So at the very
Speaker 1: least Jim Jones was equal. He was very progressive that
Speaker 1: in terms of race. Yeah, he wasn't a raging e gallitarian.
Speaker 1: We consider the way he ran his organization. Where did
Speaker 1: he start out again, where did the church? Where did
Speaker 1: the temple start out? It started out in Indiana. No,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember, is that I remember the fact
Speaker 1: that he didn't care about race because I know that
Speaker 1: he lived in an area that was a mixed population,
Speaker 1: which at that time was probably considered a slum. And
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that I know he kind
Speaker 1: of espoused about when they got to San Francisco. Well,
Speaker 1: it's not or gender, because those were both really big
Speaker 1: issues at that time. Anyway, So he had a lot
Speaker 1: of women hired his organization because he was having sex
Speaker 1: with him. Fair but for them all to be you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, equality man, Yeah yeah, equality, I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So who else and are on our list from the FBI?
Speaker 1: Stephen Jones was Jim Jones Son who was considered even
Speaker 1: more dangerous than Jones, but luckily he was captured by
Speaker 1: the by the Guineas and I believe he want spent
Speaker 1: some time in prison down there. Oh they even recognized
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, Larry Layton, the shooter at the airstrip. He survived,
Speaker 1: but he was arrested, put on trial, and in prison.
Speaker 1: He was imprisoned in Guiana until two thousand two. So
Speaker 1: not a threat for the to the mills because some
Speaker 1: other ones. That's a guy named Tim Jones. Again, these
Speaker 1: are all the dangerous people. Don't know where about unknown?
Speaker 1: Sandy Bratsch also considered dangerous whereabouts unknown? Uh, Eugene Smith,
Speaker 1: Carl Bon, A dozen people. There's a lot of people,
Speaker 1: and uh, there are several of them. Jimmy Jones Jr.
Speaker 1: And John Cobb were in the US. They identified as
Speaker 1: being in the US. So I mean and also that
Speaker 1: does this is not even these none of these guys
Speaker 1: were the guys that were on the trail. They're being
Speaker 1: pulled behind the tractor that slaughtered all those people with
Speaker 1: the airstrip. You gotta consider those guys dangerous too. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, the point I'm making here is that is
Speaker 1: that there were some dangerous people still on the loose us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, and so they had reason to be
Speaker 1: a little bit of fearful for their lives. So I
Speaker 1: guess this brings us back to the initial question, who
Speaker 1: killed them? Killed the Millers because the Mills, I, I
Speaker 1: gotta be honest with you, I a little bit forgot
Speaker 1: that that's what we were talking about. Well, we talked
Speaker 1: about them for fifteen minutes, and now for the next
Speaker 1: forty minutes we've talked about Jonestown. How did you forget
Speaker 1: about the mill I don't know, but it was It's
Speaker 1: very important background. It's the backstory to this whole thing.
Speaker 1: I tried, I admit I tried to research this without
Speaker 1: getting into Jonestown. There's no want to go down. It
Speaker 1: was impossible. Anybody who was a part of that church group, cult,
Speaker 1: whatever their story is tied up in it. Yeah, even
Speaker 1: even the Mills, you know, the Mills. Even though they
Speaker 1: never went to Jonestown at all, they still were involved
Speaker 1: in the whole thing and trying to get people out
Speaker 1: of there. Yeah. But by the way, this is the
Speaker 1: side that there's a really great book about Jonestown called
Speaker 1: Journey to Nowhere by Sheva and I Paul, and it
Speaker 1: was published in the UK end of the title black
Speaker 1: and white. But it's excellent book. I highly recommended. Sheva
Speaker 1: and I Paul was brother of the brother of V. S.
Speaker 1: And I Paul, who I'm sure you've heard of, literary
Speaker 1: giant and all that, and she Sheva was also quite
Speaker 1: a liberal literary giant. But he died unfortunately at the
Speaker 1: age of forty of a heart attack, which is kind
Speaker 1: of tragic for the world because he was a great writer.
Speaker 1: But I recommend that book high. Like, now, that's not
Speaker 1: a side. I guess we got to figure out who
Speaker 1: killed the Mills family. Yeah, alright, let's lead off with theories.
Speaker 1: You guys have any theories you like, I mean, no, no, okay, okay.
Speaker 1: One theory is that Eddie did it. This is of
Speaker 1: course what the Berkeley PD seems to think. They revived
Speaker 1: this later on in the in the early adds a
Speaker 1: cold case detective from Berkeley the dope back into it.
Speaker 1: I guess reanalyzed the evidence and contacted the family and
Speaker 1: asked them for any possible support he evidence that they
Speaker 1: could sup goold supply. The family was basically like, we
Speaker 1: don't think Eddie did, and we can't think of any
Speaker 1: any evidence you know that's relevant that we're gonna give you.
Speaker 1: So that was that, and you have this guy. The
Speaker 1: detective still pursued his case against Eddie and managed to
Speaker 1: get Eddie re arrested again, and that was in right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how did was he like out of the country or Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was living in Japan. He actual he actually got
Speaker 1: married at a couple of kids. It was living in
Speaker 1: Japan and he came back for the holidays. So this
Speaker 1: was an early December two thousand five, and they arrested
Speaker 1: him at the airport. But I gotta say, I haven't
Speaker 1: seen their evidence. I assume they've got more than just
Speaker 1: the gunshot residue, because if that's all they've got, then dudes,
Speaker 1: well that's the hard part is that it's a it's
Speaker 1: technically it's a cold case, so they're not going to
Speaker 1: release what they have. Yeah, exactly, so we we can
Speaker 1: guess at what they have, but all we know about
Speaker 1: for sure he's the gunshot. Well, but that's the other
Speaker 1: frustrating thing is that they reopened the case. And usually
Speaker 1: that's because the new evidence has come to light, right,
Speaker 1: that's why they reopened cases. But it didn't seem like
Speaker 1: anything new had come up. Yeah, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: mean they might, you know, I mean, there have been changes,
Speaker 1: and it might be that they still had evidence in
Speaker 1: the evidence room like clothing and and tissue samples and
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff like that, and so maybe using
Speaker 1: DNA they were able to but right to figure something out.
Speaker 1: Well weren't. So he was arrested, but wasn't weren't there
Speaker 1: no charges brought against him because the district attorney was like, no, seriously,
Speaker 1: there's not enough evidence for this. Yeah right, I mean,
Speaker 1: And so even even that's the thing, the big game
Speaker 1: change there, you would think would be like DNA evidence,
Speaker 1: But the problem with that is Eddie live in the
Speaker 1: same damn houses them, right, their families, Like, hey, Eddie,
Speaker 1: we found your DNA at the murder scene, we found
Speaker 1: your fingerprint. Well yeah, weird, I know, I know, So
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I had no idea what fresh
Speaker 1: evidence this guy's got. As far as the gunshot residue.
Speaker 1: I did a little research on gunshot residue, and I
Speaker 1: had no idea. How unreliable that stuffily unreliable. It's bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is not what the television show c s I
Speaker 1: tells you. It is. You have gunshot residue on your hands, sir,
Speaker 1: you're guilty, yeah, case yeah, And according to this, this
Speaker 1: is the one thing that I read. People can pick
Speaker 1: it up from the from police officers. You can pick
Speaker 1: it up from like shaking someone's hand, Yeah, pick it out, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can pick up from the police car. From you
Speaker 1: can I mean, because there's gonna be gunshot residued police
Speaker 1: stations and a lot of labs are themselves contaminated with
Speaker 1: that stuff. When you also think maybe like if you
Speaker 1: put handcuffs that, you've got your gun next to that,
Speaker 1: you've got your hands next to that, all of that stuff,
Speaker 1: you put it on someone's hands. Gunshot residue isn't a
Speaker 1: permanent thing at last. I think it's four to six
Speaker 1: hours on a surface before it gets rubbed off and
Speaker 1: eventually diluted and disappeared. So having it on the cuffs,
Speaker 1: per se. I wouldn't say, but the hands of the
Speaker 1: cops if they're holding their gun or they've they've shot
Speaker 1: their gun and put it back in the holster. But
Speaker 1: that also makes me think, okay, well, if it's four
Speaker 1: to six hours and he's got it in his right hand,
Speaker 1: and he wasn't home that afternoon, and he went and
Speaker 1: saw some friends who happened to be shooting a gun
Speaker 1: and he greets them. What is the typical male greeting.
Speaker 1: It's to shake hands, which transfers it to him, because
Speaker 1: that's how easy it is to transfer this stuff. Well,
Speaker 1: and also there's there's other things that can give you
Speaker 1: a false positive on that test, like if you feel
Speaker 1: like a break mechanic I was told you can. You
Speaker 1: can actually even though you've not shot a gun at all,
Speaker 1: you'll test positive and break dust. Yeah, I bet there's
Speaker 1: some you know, stuff that you could pick up smoking
Speaker 1: a lot of marijuana, if you had a certain kind
Speaker 1: of lighter for instance, right, or if you had if
Speaker 1: you were playing with fireworks because you're a seventeen year
Speaker 1: old boy, or you know, there's just so much stuff
Speaker 1: that can cause that positive that it just I just
Speaker 1: don't find it any kind of now. I don't know
Speaker 1: he could have picked it up in his own house too,
Speaker 1: because I don't forget that the gun had been fired
Speaker 1: three times. Yeah, just you know, And and and then he
Speaker 1: goes and looks at these at the bodies of his family,
Speaker 1: and that that stuff. You know that the residue from
Speaker 1: a gun chat can can actually go three to five
Speaker 1: feet away from where the gun is, And so he
Speaker 1: was even if he didn't touch the bodies, if he
Speaker 1: was touching something right next to them. We've probably got
Speaker 1: some of that stuff on him. But I can't remember
Speaker 1: it was all Ergenie. They found him in bed, or
Speaker 1: maybe it was both. I can't and clarify this for me.
Speaker 1: If you remember, Joe, I know that at least one
Speaker 1: of them was in bed, Yeah, one in bed was
Speaker 1: what was in the bathroom was the daughter was in
Speaker 1: the bathroom. So it's it's entirely I think both parents
Speaker 1: were in the bedroom. The one of them had fallen
Speaker 1: out of bed. But the point is if those guns,
Speaker 1: it's that gun was shot in the bedroom, and he
Speaker 1: walks up and he places his hand on that parent's chest.
Speaker 1: He's gonna pick up the gunshot residue, because that's less
Speaker 1: than three feet away from their head where the gun
Speaker 1: was fired. Yeah, I mean, I don't Eddie's story is
Speaker 1: hinky to me, But I've got to say that it's
Speaker 1: completely plausible that he just picked it up accidentally. As
Speaker 1: far as as not hearing the gunshots, again, he was
Speaker 1: washing his hair. He was washing his hair. Couldn't they
Speaker 1: think they could have been the killers, could have used
Speaker 1: a suppressor. As far as there were being no screaming
Speaker 1: and shouting, Well, you know, when you realize that you're
Speaker 1: confronted by a raging psycho from the temple who's going
Speaker 1: to murder you, when your and your wife or your husband,
Speaker 1: you're probably thinking about your kids. And if you're screaming shout,
Speaker 1: the only thing you're going to accomplish is get Eddie
Speaker 1: to come out of the room and get killed himself.
Speaker 1: I think that's the reason Eddie survived. I don't think
Speaker 1: they were there to kill the entire family if and
Speaker 1: actually we shouldn't go into that too much anyway, But
Speaker 1: so don't think it's that suspicious that Eddie didn't hear anything.
Speaker 1: I mean that sense. So that's why I don't really
Speaker 1: believe that Eddie did it. So sorry, okay, yeah, yeah, uh,
Speaker 1: let's let's see the next one. It was it was
Speaker 1: a drug deal gone bad because Eddie was, after all
Speaker 1: it addicted to marijuana. Bunk. Yeah. Well, I mean, but
Speaker 1: in fairness, right, like, if if it was a drug
Speaker 1: deal gone bad because Eddie was addicted to marijuana, he
Speaker 1: would be in not a great shape, right, It'd be
Speaker 1: targeted at him. It wouldn't be targeted at his family
Speaker 1: at the very least, he would have been involved in
Speaker 1: some way. Like it's not that it was a drug
Speaker 1: deal between family members, isn't. Don't you know, people to
Speaker 1: put that that thing out there. I mean, there were
Speaker 1: a lot of drugs being shipped down to the temple,
Speaker 1: but they weren't like recreational drugs. No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: But well, and that's that's the thing that I'm wondering
Speaker 1: about because I know that Joe, who is it there?
Speaker 1: They're part of this theory is that somebody else was
Speaker 1: supposed to be at the house, and that's who the
Speaker 1: gunmen were after. Okay, okay, Well, we've talked a little
Speaker 1: bit about this, is that there was a lot of
Speaker 1: drugs in Jonestown. Some I've I've read the accountings that
Speaker 1: I still don't understand how they did this, but somehow
Speaker 1: they got around so many regulations to have drugs, pharmaceutical
Speaker 1: grade drugs shipped from the US into Yana and go
Speaker 1: through customs and get there. Well, that's all. It was
Speaker 1: probably all those signed letters or some kind of bribe.
Speaker 1: But the point is those drugs were coming from somewhere.
Speaker 1: This is a year later, so it's possible that somebody
Speaker 1: got out and intercepted one of those uh those shipments,
Speaker 1: or was still receiving those shipments locally before they were
Speaker 1: supposed to be sent down. That's all I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I mean, there was there was a whole host of
Speaker 1: drugs that were being sent to Jonestown. So it's completely
Speaker 1: plausible that somebody said, wait, there's this completely legal stream
Speaker 1: of drugs that I can get my hands on and
Speaker 1: then sell on the street. Let's track that guy down
Speaker 1: and the mills they were in the church, they're going
Speaker 1: to know about it. Or Stowen was there and we
Speaker 1: need to get him. And then the whole thing went
Speaker 1: to went to pieces. Yeah. Maybe I know that some
Speaker 1: people has speculated that they were looking for Stowe. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if Stone was actually involved in the
Speaker 1: whole drug business. And I don't know that at all.
Speaker 1: Think about was that before he joined the church, he
Speaker 1: was actually an assistant district attorney the area, and then
Speaker 1: he left. He left that job for a while to
Speaker 1: join the Temple, and he did a lot of legal
Speaker 1: work for the Temple until he got disaffected. He left
Speaker 1: and joined the Concerned Relatives, and now today he's back
Speaker 1: to being a district attorney. So I don't think he's
Speaker 1: the kind of guy would get involved with running illegal drugs,
Speaker 1: But who knows. I mean, if if, how do I
Speaker 1: say this without sounding like I'm bashing on his character.
Speaker 1: If you can be convinced to fall in with the cult,
Speaker 1: you can be convinced for at least a duration of
Speaker 1: time to fall into a illegal narcon rate pitation. Probably
Speaker 1: it's what Israel is not. I don't know, but I'm
Speaker 1: not sure. If I think the Stone left, I think
Speaker 1: he left the Temple in the nineteen seventies seven before
Speaker 1: they went to So yeah, I don't know if he
Speaker 1: was really involved with the whole level thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1: They had to have some US contact shipping that stuff
Speaker 1: down there. That's all I but but I know that's
Speaker 1: not the only theory we've got that. We've got another
Speaker 1: one here, a couple more. The FBI murdered them. I know,
Speaker 1: this is a funny one. That's just hilarious. I just somebody,
Speaker 1: somebody is to put that, put this out on the internet,
Speaker 1: and I think it's absurd. But yeah, the FBI, and
Speaker 1: once they rung every bit of information out of the mills,
Speaker 1: they totally interrogated them, and they killed them rather than
Speaker 1: let the story leak out. That's the dumbest thing. It's
Speaker 1: really dumb. I have a question. Yeah, what story? What
Speaker 1: story had they not already told books and news interviews? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know the thing about it is too, is
Speaker 1: that they were at their house interviewing them, and then
Speaker 1: Eddie before he went off to the bedroom and smoked
Speaker 1: and smoked a little pot and watched two he took
Speaker 1: he took a long shower. He's washing his hair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's washing his hair, and so presumably presumably, uh, he
Speaker 1: would be making noise. I mean they'd be like interviewing
Speaker 1: them then then downstairs and and they'd hear the they
Speaker 1: hear the water running and stuff, and then they hear
Speaker 1: him come out of the bathroom and walked down the
Speaker 1: hallway and go into his bedroom. And this is upstairs,
Speaker 1: but it still would make some noise, so they would
Speaker 1: have known to go that there was somebody else they
Speaker 1: needed to kill before they left the house. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: maybe that's why Daphne died instead of him as they
Speaker 1: found her because she hid in the bathroom. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: maybe they found her outside the bathroom. This is so
Speaker 1: much bunk. But this doesn't make a damn bit of sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: is there anything? It makes no sense. And the only
Speaker 1: the theory is that you know what, I'm my favorite
Speaker 1: is that it was a people's temple hit team. It
Speaker 1: really does. There was there was motive. There was motive,
Speaker 1: and those people were killers at and there was a
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen. If if you do go to that
Speaker 1: FBI side that we were talking about and you start
Speaker 1: reading through there's docs, there is so many accountings of
Speaker 1: the hit squad. They're gonna go after, they're going to
Speaker 1: do this. I mean, it was Jones was saying this
Speaker 1: over and over and so many these interviewees. This was
Speaker 1: always popping up in these interviews, which is just scary. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it had to. Once you're done in Beanna
Speaker 1: and your passportsman confiscated and all your money too. These
Speaker 1: people must have been just scared out of their minds.
Speaker 1: I mean you're being looked, you know, being beaten for
Speaker 1: the slightest infraction. You don't dare talk to anybody else
Speaker 1: because they might rat you out. And this guy is
Speaker 1: and you can sell from watching Jones was deteriorating by
Speaker 1: the end. He was lunear and lunear, and he said
Speaker 1: he told everybody had multiple forms of cancer or multiple diseases.
Speaker 1: It's also speculated that he was getting more and more
Speaker 1: into the drugs that they were shipping in. Oh, if
Speaker 1: you listen to that Jonestown tape that I talked about
Speaker 1: on the Last Night, if you listen to earlier recordings
Speaker 1: of Jones, his voice is pretty clear and he's running
Speaker 1: an easy train of thought. And then you listen to
Speaker 1: the Jonestown Last Night tape and he almost he has
Speaker 1: a bit of a lisp, which if you've ever been
Speaker 1: around somebody who's heavily drugged or has been on drugs
Speaker 1: for a long time, like they're there, their speech functions
Speaker 1: start to slow and stumble, and that's what he sounded like. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's really yeah, So it wouldn't surprise me a
Speaker 1: whole lot. Yeah. So anyways, back to Eddie for a second.
Speaker 1: As I said, he was re arrested once again. He
Speaker 1: did a few days in the pokey and then they
Speaker 1: put it in front of the d a's office again,
Speaker 1: and again the d S office does no. And that's it.
Speaker 1: So they went back to Japan's went back to Japan,
Speaker 1: and I'll bet you he'll never come back to the
Speaker 1: st at that point. But he's got you know, I
Speaker 1: think I think he's got a built in defense there.
Speaker 1: Though again, I mean it's obviously obviously the three of
Speaker 1: us the most brilliant detectives in America. It's not the way.
Speaker 1: Have already concluded that there's no way the prosecution can
Speaker 1: win a case against Eddie. I mean, unless unless they've
Speaker 1: really got some serio reously damning evidence against him. There
Speaker 1: there ain't no way. So it's a waste of time,
Speaker 1: you would. You have to have to find the smoking gun.
Speaker 1: That's the only way they could ever pin it on Eddie.
Speaker 1: They found a gun in his stuff, and it just
Speaker 1: never got brought forward. That's not happening because if you
Speaker 1: did have a gun, he's gotten rid of it by now. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the other thing, that's another thing I forgot to mention,
Speaker 1: is that is the gun. They didn't find the gun, Eddie,
Speaker 1: isn't so Now, if you're going to take off after
Speaker 1: you burger your family and go get rid of the gun,
Speaker 1: which I presume you gonna want to do a sun
Speaker 1: distance from your house hopefully, yeah, you don't just drop
Speaker 1: it down the storm drain in front of your house.
Speaker 1: So obviously he had to go a little distance. Now,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it make sense to just stay away for a
Speaker 1: while and then come home a little late and say,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I s not got the back because
Speaker 1: I wanted to go like hang out with my buddies
Speaker 1: and smoke some pots, smoke some pot and uh and
Speaker 1: I'm not now that's put these cars here and dead buddies.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. And instead he just goes up, he
Speaker 1: goes out, disposes of the gun, comes back, this goes
Speaker 1: to his room and sits around, knowing that that's going
Speaker 1: to arouse suspicion, right, Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've seen speculation that maybe Eddie wasn't as disenchanted with
Speaker 1: the temple as his parents were granted five years later
Speaker 1: because they left in Okay. So his parents were shot
Speaker 1: five four and a half, five years later. But there's
Speaker 1: speculation that he wasn't as disenchanted or as an angsty
Speaker 1: teenager was saying, oh so much better when we were
Speaker 1: with the temple blah blah blah, and somehow was coerced
Speaker 1: in doing it that way. But that, again, that doesn't
Speaker 1: make any sense to me because the timeline is too long.
Speaker 1: If it had been a year, I could totally buy
Speaker 1: that if his parents had left the year before and
Speaker 1: then he you know, you could see him doing it
Speaker 1: then because he miss that and he still believe. But
Speaker 1: five years just too long for me. Well, the other
Speaker 1: thing that the interviewing thing, of course, was Jonestown. And
Speaker 1: you know, even if you've been a little miffed, and
Speaker 1: I'll say at age twelve when they left, you know,
Speaker 1: after seeing what happened at Jonestown, he's got mom and dad.
Speaker 1: I've been a little angry with you, but you know what,
Speaker 1: I thank you. I really want to thank you for
Speaker 1: saving my life. Yeah, yeah, I don't think he'd be mad.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no way. So I
Speaker 1: don't know unless unless it's just a raging psycho. He
Speaker 1: hasn't exhibited any other raging psycho tendencies anywhere, not at all.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and so again yeah, people stample, people stample,
Speaker 1: people stample. Okay, so Mr Solid, it's time to wrap
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