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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways stories of things we simply don't know the

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Speaker 1: answer to. Hie there and welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always by Steve and

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Speaker 1: and we're here to solve another mystery. Are you ready sure?

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Speaker 1: What are we talking about? This week? We're gonna be

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Speaker 1: looking into the mystery of the Mills family of Berkeley, California.

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Speaker 1: Alan Jennie Mills lived at Woolsey Street in Berkeley with

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Speaker 1: two of their five children, Eddie and Daftning. And in

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Speaker 1: February nineteen eighty, Al, Jeannie and Daphne were found murdered

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Speaker 1: at each one shot execution style with the twenty two

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Speaker 1: caliber bullet in their heads. And they were exploding twenty

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Speaker 1: two bullets, weren't they. I've seen that somewhere. I did

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Speaker 1: not see that particular one as possible, and you could

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Speaker 1: have an exploding one like I'm guessing mostly just a

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Speaker 1: hollow point, but yeah, yeah, I mean you can. You

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Speaker 1: can make things like that. You see did you see

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Speaker 1: David the Jackal or read the book? Yeah, he made

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Speaker 1: these little exploding once using mercury. That's off the point,

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Speaker 1: but I was just I've seen it said that they

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Speaker 1: were shot in the head with exploding twenty two caliber routes. Yeah, uh,

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Speaker 1: that I did not know. I think just a regular

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Speaker 1: twenty two round will probably do the trick, though, I

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Speaker 1: think almost anything point blank. You think probably actually blanks

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Speaker 1: would kill you a point blank yeah, I think probably

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Speaker 1: even like a pellet gun point blank would like you

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Speaker 1: in the right place. Yeah, there's some damage. Yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: anyway that But of course Eddie is unencountered for here.

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Speaker 1: Eddie was not killed. Eddie was seventeen at the time.

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Speaker 1: He was in his bedroom. He apparently said that he'd

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Speaker 1: gone into his room, smoked a little pot, was watching TV,

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Speaker 1: and he lived through the whole thing and didn't hear anything,

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Speaker 1: was completely unaware. Apparently his grandmother came over for a visit,

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Speaker 1: and she's the one who discovered the bodies, and then

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Speaker 1: maybe wasn't knocked on Eddie store and said, hey, Eddie,

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Speaker 1: you wear that everybody's dead out here. It was. It

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Speaker 1: was a Genie or Dafty who didn't die that day,

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Speaker 1: but two days later in the hospital. That's that's why

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Speaker 1: I'm asking, because I can't remember which one it was,

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Speaker 1: but one of them survived for a short amount of

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Speaker 1: time because she locked herself in the bathroom. I think

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Speaker 1: back to back to our murder. No murder weapon was

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Speaker 1: found and they never found it, and so are unsolved.

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Speaker 1: Mystery here is who killed the Mills family. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: good question, right, It's a very good question. Yeah. The

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Speaker 1: police were suspicious of Eddie because, after all, gunshots make

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Speaker 1: a lot of noise, and it seemed impossible that he

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Speaker 1: couldn't have heard them. Well, he could have been washing

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Speaker 1: his hair, just like Chutney. Yeah, it could have been

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Speaker 1: why I could have had the volume in his TV. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the gym got a perm, got in the shower, washed

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Speaker 1: her hair, and then come found what movie are you

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Speaker 1: playing off of? Bond? You guys not memorized that movie.

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Speaker 1: I haven't even seen it. Actually, I've only seen bits

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Speaker 1: of it. Sorry. Yeah, well I was going to say

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Speaker 1: about Eddie is I've only I only found one source

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Speaker 1: for this, but one source said that he was actually

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Speaker 1: in his room listening to the stereo with headphones on. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I've heard that too, so that that could also account

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Speaker 1: for it. And also nobody explained why he didn't hear

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Speaker 1: the shots. Yeah, well I don't think that will explain it.

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Speaker 1: Is there are there's a little thing called the suppressor.

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Speaker 1: You know. Well, and if he was watching TV loud,

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Speaker 1: if it was like a violent show or you know,

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Speaker 1: something like that, something would like Yeah, no, I I

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Speaker 1: looked up what was on TV that day? What was it?

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Speaker 1: I don't it was sitcoms because there there was three

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Speaker 1: major networks that in this is there's not a lot

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Speaker 1: of TV channels and they were all sitcoms at the time,

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't anything that would have had violent gun

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Speaker 1: battles going on. That might have blended in with the shots. Sure,

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Speaker 1: but like really loud yelling or things like that, that's

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Speaker 1: a mainstay of sitcoms, and laugh tracks and things like that,

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Speaker 1: all the laugh tracks. Interestingly enough, laugh tracks didn't exist

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Speaker 1: in the eighties, but that's another story for another train.

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Speaker 1: Um No, genuinely they didn't. But this, um, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe with the headphones on, he could have been watching

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Speaker 1: TV with headphones on yea, or like again, they used

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Speaker 1: to suppressor. You know, it doesn't make them silent, right,

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Speaker 1: but it does it will make them much quieter. And

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Speaker 1: if you got loud noises on in the other room,

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Speaker 1: then you're pretty much golden. Yeah, And I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: where his bedroom was. I assume it was upstairs. I

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Speaker 1: got on street view and looked at the look at

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood. It's all older, two story houses. And another

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Speaker 1: reason I think they might have used to suppress here

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Speaker 1: is the houses are really close together. Ye, neighbor hurting anything,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, nobody reported hearing. There are no

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Speaker 1: shouts or shots reported by anybody. Yeah. The shouts thing

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Speaker 1: is like the weirder part to me, I guess, And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get there, But I think we have

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Speaker 1: other things to be talking about right now. Right I

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Speaker 1: wold have been screaming and shouting. I have a serious

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Speaker 1: to why they didn't do that. Okay, Yeah, we'll get there. Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: Another another police were suspicious of that because of it

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Speaker 1: because of the gunshot thing. Also, there was no sign

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Speaker 1: of any forest entry, which again is not necessarily completely damning.

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Speaker 1: I would say, not even well. I mean, yeah, they

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Speaker 1: tested his hands. They found a little bit of gunpowder residue.

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Speaker 1: On the right hand, there was a possible motive for

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Speaker 1: Eddie to kill them, which is that he eventually did

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Speaker 1: wind up in heriting some money two seven thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: which would be over seven hundred thou dollars in todays money. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well that's that's an okay motive. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I don't know if i'd kill my family over seven

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Speaker 1: hundred grand I don't think I would. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I would either, But I like my family. It depends

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Speaker 1: on the day for me. Yeah. Yeah, that's the whole point,

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Speaker 1: right is do you like your family? Do you have

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Speaker 1: a good relationship with your family? Although, in fairness, I

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Speaker 1: don't think I would kill anyone. I don't I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: kill three strangers. Now, I wouldn't do it either. But

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Speaker 1: the local district attorney's office didn't bring any charges against

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Speaker 1: Eddie in the case was dropped. They started a lack

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Speaker 1: of evidence. And yeah, and there was another consideration, which

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Speaker 1: is that Alan Genie Mills had enemies who wanted them dead,

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Speaker 1: and these people had killed people before, and so possibly

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Speaker 1: we don't know that for completely ironclad sure, but quite

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Speaker 1: quite possibly. Yeah, well some of them did actually do

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Speaker 1: some killing, but we'll talk about that later. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so in the absence of a really ironclad case, I mean,

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Speaker 1: Eddie's defense attorneys would have had no trouble at all.

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Speaker 1: Convincing the jury or at least planning a little doubt

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Speaker 1: in their heads that was somebody else who did that. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so another great reason not to bring a case, and

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Speaker 1: I trying to put them on trial. You probably want

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Speaker 1: to know about those deadly people I was talking about.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to know about them. Yet you want to

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Speaker 1: know about them, okay? So Alan Ginnie and their kids

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Speaker 1: had been involved for several years with the church called

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Speaker 1: the People's Temple, which had been and probably most of

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Speaker 1: our listeners have heard of the People's Temple, Jim Jones Jones, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jonestown and all that stuff. Yeah, they were involved with

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Speaker 1: those guys, and they started in nineteen sixty nine. I

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Speaker 1: believe they joined the church and uh stayed with it

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Speaker 1: until nineteen seventy five after they left the church. It

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Speaker 1: sees me the Temple they set in motion a chain

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Speaker 1: of events said eventually would result in assassination, lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of murders, and a whole bunch of suicides as well.

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Speaker 1: Although almost everybody in the People's Temple died, probably about

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Speaker 1: a hundred survived. And of those hundreds, some of them

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Speaker 1: were okay, And they were just regular people who have

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Speaker 1: been kind of been held prisoner in Jonestown or wherever,

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Speaker 1: and some of them were actually psychos who participated in

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Speaker 1: the whole killing school there. There was I'm getting a

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Speaker 1: little ahead of myself, but you know, everybody thinks that

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Speaker 1: Jonestown they all they all drank the Koolid and died

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Speaker 1: committed suicide. But as it happens that it appears that

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Speaker 1: a substantial number of the people there were actually murdered.

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Speaker 1: And I yeah, yeah, And I know we're we're going

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Speaker 1: to dive into this pretty deep or shortly, and I

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Speaker 1: guess yeah, But I do want to clarify for those

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Speaker 1: listeners who are unfamiliar, Joe is not just using a term.

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Speaker 1: It's not a turning a phrase of drinking the kool aid.

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Speaker 1: In this situation, people literally drank the kool aid and died.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to go ahead and point that out.

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Speaker 1: Fun fact it was actually flavorid. Yeah, not cool aid.

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Speaker 1: Oh sorry, yeah, you know that's just so Yeah. Again

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Speaker 1: another mark against Jones. He cheaps out it doesn't drink.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those things. Uh, I can't think of

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Speaker 1: the term for it. When a brand name becomes so

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Speaker 1: recognized with a product that that's what everybody calls it,

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Speaker 1: regardless of what it is. It's like clean X, I

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Speaker 1: need a clean X, or a band aid or a

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Speaker 1: band aid. Yeah, it's it's exactly that. But that's why

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Speaker 1: it's the kool Aid, because that's what everybody called it,

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Speaker 1: no matter what it was. Yeah, that's how I would

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Speaker 1: have gotten out of being forced to drink the kool Aid.

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Speaker 1: And I said, I'm sorry, I don't drink that cheap crap.

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Speaker 1: You can get me some cool aid. Then we'll talk. Okay,

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Speaker 1: where was I I don't know, Oh yeah, okay, So

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Speaker 1: I was talking about how their actions eventually caused the

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Speaker 1: whole thing that happened at Jonestown. I mean not obviously,

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Speaker 1: they didn't deliberately wish for all those people to die,

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Speaker 1: quite the opposite. But among the survivors were the worst

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Speaker 1: of the worst, the ones who acted as temple as

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Speaker 1: guards and who administered beatings to people, and the ones

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Speaker 1: who forced people to drink the kool aid in the

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Speaker 1: end and murdered a bunch of people at the airstrip.

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Speaker 1: And we'll talk about that a little later too, And

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Speaker 1: you can bet that those people blamed Alan Jennie Mills

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Speaker 1: for the destruction of their nifty Little cult being the

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Speaker 1: strum that broke the camel's back. Yeah kind of. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Jones was unstable and he'd been talking about

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Speaker 1: mass suicide the earliest Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: the White Knights. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, the White Knights

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Speaker 1: are crazy. The whole thing is actually, this whole episode

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Speaker 1: is just insane. I read I read quite a quite

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Speaker 1: a large num road FBI files on this whole thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they interviewed all the survivors and stuff, and uh,

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Speaker 1: although the insanity of this whole thing, it's just and

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Speaker 1: I'd always known about this, but not in such detail.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those ones where you start reading

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Speaker 1: it and then you just get sucked into the documents

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Speaker 1: and wait, I got to read the next one, and

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Speaker 1: I got to read the next one, and I know

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Speaker 1: it's midnight, but I got to read the next one.

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Speaker 1: I didn't do that with this one, but I did

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Speaker 1: that with something that's upcoming. So it's easy to do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really easy. Do it fairly frequently. Just yeah, I

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Speaker 1: waste a lot of time on this stuff. Although it's

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Speaker 1: not a total waste of time. I I leaned some

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Speaker 1: good information out of there, absolutely, but it was it

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Speaker 1: was like a lot of reading and then here's a

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Speaker 1: little nugget, and then here's a little nugget, because well

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Speaker 1: it's the FBI files. They're all redacted, so it's it's

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Speaker 1: hard to read that. Yeah, all all these blacked out things,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, Alan Genie Mills used to be called

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Speaker 1: Elmer and Deanna Myrtle, and then they changed their name

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Speaker 1: after they left the People's Temple. So the Myrtles joined

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Speaker 1: the People's Temple when it was in Yucayak, California. Originally

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Speaker 1: they started out in Indiana eventually, and then Jones got

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Speaker 1: a little paranoid about nuclear war, and he'd read an

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Speaker 1: article in the Atlantic where he heard that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the whole northern California kind of Redwoods area is a

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Speaker 1: really good place to survive on nuclear war, which is true.

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Speaker 1: Is that why you left the Indiana I thought it

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Speaker 1: was just that he was starting to get a lot

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Speaker 1: of negative press. I think it was partly that too,

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Speaker 1: But there was He's he apparently was very concerned about

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Speaker 1: the possibility of nuclear war, and of course this wasn't,

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Speaker 1: and it was the sixties one. You know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people were kind of concerned about that possibility. Still

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Speaker 1: slightly concerned about it today. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: more concerned about like asteroid impacts. But we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: that in another episode. Yeah, so I've already talked about

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Speaker 1: Jim Jones, James Warren Jones. He preached the gospel at

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Speaker 1: the Myrtles, kind of like it's all about equality and

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Speaker 1: people helping each other. And he was opposed to racism,

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Speaker 1: and he was kind of more and more he got

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Speaker 1: more stridently sort of socialist. You can blame the rich, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I blame the rich for all the ills of the

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Speaker 1: world and stuff. And in the early days to Temple

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Speaker 1: really did do some good works. They would take in

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Speaker 1: drug addicts and straighten them out, you know, And of

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Speaker 1: course that's kind of like what the scientologists do too,

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, maybe maybe they had an alter

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Speaker 1: your motive there. They also encouraged adoption. They encouraged all

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Speaker 1: their members to adopt kids if they if they could

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Speaker 1: afford it. Jim Jones and his wife adopted five kids,

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Speaker 1: So it's a pass all the kids. That's a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of kids, and they also had one of their own,

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Speaker 1: Stephen Jones, who turned out to be kind of even

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Speaker 1: a bigger psycho than his dad. That's so weird. Sorry.

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Speaker 1: Growing up next to me, there was a family that

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Speaker 1: moved into this very large house and they were Evangelical Christians,

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Speaker 1: and they had one child and they adopted five more.

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Speaker 1: Whether it was their name Jones, no, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: tell you what I'm guessing basically this just hearing that,

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Speaker 1: reading that kind of Yeah, that's right, that's weird. They were.

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Speaker 1: They were a little creepy. They were definitely was definitely

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Speaker 1: Flanders esk creepy, creepy way. Yeah, anyway, sorry, back to

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Speaker 1: the start. Okay, so the Mills, even though they were

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Speaker 1: at this time still named Myrtle, the Myrtles, are the

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Speaker 1: are the Mills? They changed their entire names. Yeah, first

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Speaker 1: and last names. Okay, got it. Yeah, clarifying, So from

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Speaker 1: this point forward, are we calling them the Myrtles or

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Speaker 1: the Mills. I'm just going to call them the Mills.

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Speaker 1: That's probably a good way to go. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: so too. Jennie Mills eventually became a head of the

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Speaker 1: temple's publications office and and Al served as the official

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Speaker 1: church photographer among the things, because I think they still

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Speaker 1: kept their day jobs, or I'm pretty sure Al did.

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Speaker 1: And even though the Mills liked the temple and they

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Speaker 1: liked Jim Jones, he was pretty authoritarian even back then.

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Speaker 1: And that was the thing that just grew and grew

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Speaker 1: and grew. It's just time went by. He just slowly,

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Speaker 1: just slowly, just amped up, papped up the nuttiness. He

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Speaker 1: also had a lot of strange rules. Everybody was required

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Speaker 1: to write out and sign a confession to some heinous

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Speaker 1: crime or another like a murder, rape, robbery or something

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Speaker 1: to just like whatever, then sign it and then they

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Speaker 1: had to and then hand to hand a confession over

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Speaker 1: to Jones for safekeeping. Well that's a good way to

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Speaker 1: control the crap out of when you have a signed

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Speaker 1: confession from somebody. They do this or I'm giving this

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Speaker 1: to the cops. But I also wonder if it was

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Speaker 1: just if it I'm just trying to figure out how

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Speaker 1: that was pitched to get people to do it, and

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Speaker 1: wondering if that was something that he pitched as this

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Speaker 1: is a form of confession. Maybe you know you're you

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Speaker 1: didn't do this particular thing, but it's going to free

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Speaker 1: your soul or wipe the path the slate clean for you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just not to draw too many how much

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Speaker 1: do you How do you get people to do it?

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Speaker 1: I think you know, not to draw too many parallels.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we've talked about the Scientolo. The Church

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Speaker 1: of Scientology gets people to sign contracts for literally all

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Speaker 1: of the rest of their lives for eternity. So that's

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Speaker 1: I mean, how do you pitch that without I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's some stuff that people do for religion or belief

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Speaker 1: just that is unexplainable to most of us. And I

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Speaker 1: and again we've had this conversation. I'll probably hold back

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Speaker 1: on a bunch of that today because I just it

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Speaker 1: baffles me. Yeah, I agree though, Yeah, he probably did

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Speaker 1: pitch it somewhere than I I want some black mail material,

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Speaker 1: But I sure you didn't put it out quite like that.

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Speaker 1: Not Yeah, but still, you know it would strike me

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Speaker 1: as a little bit odd. Yeah, I wouldn't do it,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think it was. You are. Also, every

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Speaker 1: time you went to church, I don't know what they

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Speaker 1: called it, they called it mass or whatever they come

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Speaker 1: you went to the temple. Yeah, every time you went

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Speaker 1: to the temple um you were required to sign a

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Speaker 1: blank sheet of paper, sign your name on a blank

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Speaker 1: sheet of paper. And they said it was for attendance

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Speaker 1: taking purposes. But couldn't she sign, like just have a

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Speaker 1: piece of paper that everybody signed their names. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and instead of one sheet of paper per se, and

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Speaker 1: for clarity's sake, the people's temple. What denomination were they

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Speaker 1: even strenuously connected to? Were they? They were Christians? Weren't they? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I can't remember what branch, but they really kind of

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Speaker 1: kind of evolved away from Christianity, right, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to brand whatever they were, but they started out as

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Speaker 1: a quote unquote Christian, Yeah, yeah, but then became like

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Speaker 1: un Christian because towards the end they're saying they didn't

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Speaker 1: believe in God. Yeah. Well that's yeah, that's that's a

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Speaker 1: whole another ball of wax. But yeah, but they were,

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Speaker 1: you know, they moved to San Francisco, and they were

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Speaker 1: preaching the gospel and they were trying to do good things.

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Speaker 1: They were doing a few good things at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: At the beginning, presumably these sheets of paper you could

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Speaker 1: type of confession in over the signature. Later on, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: there could be. That's probably whatever. And people said that

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Speaker 1: they signed just dozens and dozens of these things. Well,

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Speaker 1: and then why even make them sign a like, why

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Speaker 1: even tell them that you're writing these confessions? Yeah? Why

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Speaker 1: not just do it on the downlow? Yeah? Okay, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I don't understand a lot of this, so

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Speaker 1: I guess I should just asking questions. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: entire episode, as I said, it's just crazy, just so

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Speaker 1: we're that something crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also the

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Speaker 1: physical abuse started at one point. If you violated any rule,

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Speaker 1: and there were lots and lots of rules, then you

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Speaker 1: were beaten with paddles or with boards or whatever. Yeah, paddles. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jones loved a good padlin. Yeah, I know. And that's

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Speaker 1: what caused the Mills to leave the People's Temple. In

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Speaker 1: their daughter, Linda was beaten seventy times seventy smacks with

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Speaker 1: the paddle I guess, pretty hard. And they were upset

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Speaker 1: about that, so they left. Do you remember why? No? No,

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Speaker 1: I never actually heard what the actual offense was. Okay,

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Speaker 1: The offense was that their daughter had a friend that

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Speaker 1: Jones didn't like, and she ran up and gave her

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Speaker 1: a hug and Jones again didn't like her, branded her

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Speaker 1: as a lesbian and basically was punishing her for hanging

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Speaker 1: out with a lesbian who could corrupt her. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this girl was in fact gay, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It's that Jones decided that she was, and

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Speaker 1: because he had said, don't hang out with that girl,

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Speaker 1: and she probably went, oh my god, I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: anyone forever on over gavel a hug and got spotted

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Speaker 1: by Jones himself or one of the cronies. She got

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Speaker 1: thrown over his knee and beaten with a paddle thrown

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Speaker 1: over his knee. Well, I don't know if she actually

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Speaker 1: was bent over his knee, but she's seventy or seventy

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Speaker 1: five times, and that's that's a lot of whooping day,

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Speaker 1: it really is. Yeah, once is enough to set me right. Oh.

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Speaker 1: I remember as a kid getting in trouble and getting hit.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'd earned five whatever I did, earned five

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Speaker 1: smacks and that was enough. I didn't do anything for days, yes, ma'am, No, ma'am, yes, mama, no, mama. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm like you. I wasn't as a child. I've got

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Speaker 1: a belt in the other room. Can you know, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I got a paddle. Not interested. Let's hear more about

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Speaker 1: the Mills, the mid family. So they left, and from

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Speaker 1: the temple's point of view, they defected and Jones. Jones

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Speaker 1: was not cool with people leaving the temple. Yeah, strangely enough, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he said that, and it's got more and more frequent

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Speaker 1: as time went on. He said that the factors from

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Speaker 1: the temple should be killed, but most especially the ones

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Speaker 1: that should be killed are the ones who publicly criticize

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Speaker 1: the temple, which the Mills did. Yeah, the Mills did. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit more about that in a

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Speaker 1: minute here. A few de factors did die are kind

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Speaker 1: of mysterious circumstances. The most mysterious one of alls, most

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Speaker 1: of them. Actually, it's kind of hard to say, but

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Speaker 1: there was one guy named Robert Houston Jr. Who was

377
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Speaker 1: a railroad world worker for his day job, and he

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Speaker 1: was a member from sixty nine to seventy six. Uh specifically,

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Speaker 1: October two, nineteen seventy six, he called his ex wife

380
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Speaker 1: and told her that he was leaving the People's Temple.

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Speaker 1: Three days later, on October five, his mangled body was

382
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Speaker 1: found on the railroad tracks where he worked. It was

383
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Speaker 1: listed as a train accident. But that's quite a coincidence.

384
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Speaker 1: Is a huge coincidence. And he was in San Francisco

385
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Speaker 1: where the temple was, Yeah, because the temple was still

386
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Speaker 1: in San Francisco at that time. Yeah, Okay, yeah, they

387
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Speaker 1: didn't They didn't leave the States until nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 1: But we'll get and actually it's still maintained a presence

389
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Speaker 1: in San Francisco even after they moved to Jonestown. But yeah,

390
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Speaker 1: so that's a strange one. There was another one who

391
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Speaker 1: was found hung in her garage and that was ruled

392
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Speaker 1: a suicide, but her son, Daniel believes that she wanted

393
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Speaker 1: to get out of the temple and she and that

394
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 1: she didn't kill herself. That was Maxine Harp. Maxine Harp,

395
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Speaker 1: her children were placed in a temple, temple foster homes

396
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Speaker 1: and a lot of welfare it was collected after she died.

397
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Speaker 1: So there, I suppose there's a motive. I'm not sure

398
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Speaker 1: about that that one. It's hard to say. Probably not.

399
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Speaker 1: That's another one who had a heart attack occupation that

400
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Speaker 1: they she but she was in her sixties. Um and

401
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Speaker 1: it's been said some people have accused the temple of

402
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Speaker 1: putting on giving her drugs to induce a heart attack.

403
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Speaker 1: Sounds substantiated. I think her name was truth Heart. And

404
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Speaker 1: again again it's hard to say. The next one was

405
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Speaker 1: John had He was a guy with mental issues. He

406
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Speaker 1: got a ten thousand dollar insurance settlement which he used

407
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Speaker 1: to buy silver bullion. Excuse me, a sil silver bullion.

408
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Speaker 1: That's what you make, you know, silver soup. Yeah, so

409
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Speaker 1: he bought some bully and ten thousand bucks with a

410
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Speaker 1: bully and apparently at the suggestion of a temple member,

411
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Speaker 1: and then the same temple member persuaded to join the temple,

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Speaker 1: and of course when he joined, he turned the bullion

413
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Speaker 1: over to Jones. Three weeks later, he jumped or fell

414
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Speaker 1: off of a three story warehouse and died. It was

415
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Speaker 1: ruled suicide. Maybe maybe not. Yeah, he did mental issues. Yeah.

416
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Speaker 1: These are all kind of like very convenient, yeah, but

417
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Speaker 1: slightly questionable if anything hinky was going on. Yeah, last

418
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Speaker 1: there was a guy named Chris Lewis who worked as

419
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Speaker 1: security for the temple. He actually came to the end

420
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Speaker 1: of the temple as a drug addict and he was

421
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Speaker 1: one of the success cases, but he wind up joining

422
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Speaker 1: the temple, and he became one of the one of

423
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: the thugs, one of the enforcers, and there was he

424
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: was security. Yeah, he was security, but you know, you

425
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 1: were things like he would he would call people up

426
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 1: who had left the temple and threatened them and stuff

427
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 1: like that. There's a lot of that going on. I

428
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,360
Speaker 1: was reading about that in the FBI file. So he's

429
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: kind of a militant, would that be the right word. Yeah,

430
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,719
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, fiercely loyal to the temple. Uh. Some

431
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: people have said that he had become kind of a liability,

432
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: like a little pr liability for the temple. And so

433
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 1: he was found dead in late nineteen seventy seven, although

434
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: the police concluded that it was either drug related or

435
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: some sort of vengeance killing, but they did they did

436
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: rule it a murder. Yeah, yeah, it was that. Yeah

437
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: it was. But that's so again, there's no real evidence there,

438
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: but it's it's nd of weird. A lot of people

439
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 1: seem to be dying. Yeah, except for Robert Houston Jr.

440
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: Which I think really is suspicious. All these others there's

441
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: really not much evidence. But given all the incredibly murderous

442
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: things that happened later, I wouldn't entirely ruin rule it out.

443
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: So in ACTE, this is when the Myrtles changed their

444
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 1: name to Alan Jennie Mills, and that's when they founded

445
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,959
Speaker 1: a group called the Concerned Relatives, which brought together They

446
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: got brought together a lot of former temple members who

447
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: were critical of the temple. They held press conferences. You

448
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 1: know that Jones just hated these people. They had press conferences.

449
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: They filed lawsuits on child custody and property disputes because

450
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: of course a lot of the kids were still in

451
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: the custody of the temple. A lot of people there

452
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: were people that wanted their kids back, a lot of

453
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 1: the temple had a lot of people's property. They wanted

454
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: their property back. They also lobbied Congress, and they eventually

455
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: came to the intention of Congressman Leo Ryan of California.

456
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 1: And if you're familiar with this case, you know who

457
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: Leo Ryan is. But we're we're gonna tell you more

458
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: about him in a few minutes here. In the summer

459
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy seven, an article appeared in New West

460
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,479
Speaker 1: magazine which apparently they interviewed a whole bunch of former

461
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: Temple members and there was a lot of dirt in

462
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: this magazine article about Temple, and this has been listed

463
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: as the cause, the precipitating cause for them to pick

464
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: up and leave the US and moved to Guiana where

465
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: Jonestown was now Jonestown. They had they had actually been

466
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: building since nineteen seventy four and they had at least

467
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 1: several thousand acres of jungle from the Guiana government and

468
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: they had built a bunch of stuff and built a

469
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: bunch of a bunch of buildings and little little tiny

470
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: houses for most of the worker peace to be and

471
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 1: then and of course a much nicer accommodation for Jim Jones.

472
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: Of course they had a big open air pavilion, pavilion

473
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: in the center of camp, which is where you know,

474
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: people would go for to like to eat, and they

475
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,239
Speaker 1: go for things like White Knights, which is when they

476
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: had get to sit around and listen to Jim Jones

477
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: ramble on randomly for hours. That stuff. Well, no, that

478
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: wasn't what the White Knights were. That was a regular

479
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 1: basis for just the White Knights were crisis crisis talks, right,

480
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: they were. They were crisis Knights where you were given

481
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: one of four decisions as a group to make. You

482
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: could commit suicide, you could fight back, you could run

483
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: and suddenly I can't think of what the fourth option was.

484
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: I remember there was four choices in the group communally

485
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: had to decide. Dropped down and curl up into a ball.

486
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 1: Oh that was it. Surrender? Yeah, that was actually surrender. Yeah,

487
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: I'm so glad. I don't I'm not part of a weird,

488
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 1: crazy cult. Yeah. Well, as far as I know, did

489
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: you find out why the Guiana and Guineas government gave

490
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: them the crown they gave him? No? I didn't figure

491
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: that one out why they did, but they had to

492
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: go through a whole bunch of red tape to do it,

493
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: and evidently they were. The government wasn't on board with

494
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: doing it at first. Are you talking about the temple

495
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: women who did favors? No, no, not at all, not

496
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: at all. They gave them a chunk of jungle land

497
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: that was basically useless from the government's perspective. But here's

498
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: the great thing. What's the other country that's on the border, Venezuela.

499
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: And so are you hinting that perhaps that was it

500
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: was like a handy way point for trucks modeling. No, No,

501
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: there was some friction between those two governments at the time,

502
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 1: and Guiana said, well, if we have this huge white

503
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: American population living right next to the border, they're not

504
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: going to invade because if they invade, they're gonna kill

505
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: all these people, and then the American government's gonna get

506
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 1: mad and come in and wipe them out. So it

507
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: was it was kind of a ploy to to put

508
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: Jonestown between themselves and and at a time of political enemy.

509
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: I see, that makes sense, especially if there's a border dispute. Yeah,

510
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: and that's it. It was. It was totally a border

511
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: issues and there was there's a whole long list of

512
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: stuff that was going on there. But that's that's the

513
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 1: simple version of it. Those crazy South Americans after they

514
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: migrated to Jonestown, the concern relatives stepped up their campaign.

515
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: So this is after the People's Temple moved to I

516
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: guess I did put that right after the People's Temple

517
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: moved to Jonestown, because they moved the majority of their congregation.

518
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: They moved about a thousand people down there, and you

519
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: would be concerned, especially if there were you know, any

520
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: kind of questionable things, yeah, or like kids that you

521
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: wanted back, or property you wanted back. It becomes way

522
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: harder to get all that stuff back. Oh yeah, I

523
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: really I think that's one of the reasons that Jones

524
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: took them all down there beyond the reach of US law.

525
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: So they accused Jones and the temple accurately of virtual

526
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: holding everybody their prisoner. They said that it was pretty

527
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: much a concentration camp. And uh, frankly, in reading the

528
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 1: FBI s files their interviews with people, that's a whole

529
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: lot of those people said, and he said it was

530
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: like living in a concentration camp. Temple though they said

531
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: that this is again the concerned relatives said that the

532
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: temple confiscated everyone's passports and their money, which would which

533
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: would make it impossible for them to leave, and that

534
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: all male outgoing and incoming was censored, and that everybody

535
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: accept the elite, looking at the guys with the guns

536
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: who were the guards kept them all aside, were forced

537
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: to work twelve hour days and field fed really crappy food.

538
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: Mostly what they ate was rice and gravy. Yeah, not

539
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: a not a healthy balanced diet. Yeah. And also people

540
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: were subjected to harsh punishment for very small infractions of

541
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: the rules. Everything the considered relative and relatives said was true,

542
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: and we talked about before. You know, Jim Jones would

543
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: get on stage and he would talk for an hour

544
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: to three at a time. Oh, sometimes end of the

545
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: wee hours. Yeah, you had to go after are working

546
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: a twelve hour day board and listen, and I bet

547
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: you got beat if you fell asleep. I imagine falling

548
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: asleep was highly frowned upon. Yeah, I can kind of

549
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: see why you would drink the kool aid after months,

550
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, you know, at some point you kind

551
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: of hit that point where you're like, you know what,

552
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: honestly though, death is better than this, So we no,

553
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: I mean there's no awe about it. No, No, you

554
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: hit a point. We know. I can understand. I mean,

555
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: I were kind of making fun of the state of mind,

556
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: but I can't. I see what you're getting at being

557
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: genuine when I say that, So you know, I'm genuinely

558
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: saying that if I were subjected to this, I would

559
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: probably try to kill myself. I would try to escape myself.

560
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: And there were people who tried to escape there. There

561
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: was a small group of people put together a little

562
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: a little conspiracy, and they tried. They took some clothes

563
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: and stuff and put in bundles and prepositioned them out

564
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: in the jungle and stuff, so they didn't sense supplies

565
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: and things like that. So when they're all ready to

566
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: finally make their escape, then they could all just like

567
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: you know, beat feed into the jungle for them. It

568
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: didn't work out. Yeah, and unfortunately, what are the reasons

569
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: it didn't work out? Is? Um, Well, let's get back

570
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: to Congressman Ryan. The concerned relatives finally persuaded Congressman Ryan

571
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: to go to Jonestown to investigate and maybe, if possible,

572
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: get some of their relatives out of there. So he

573
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: went down to Guiana along with his assistant and a

574
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: bunch of journalists and also a bunch of relatives, and

575
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: in the end only four of them got to go

576
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: along and go into Jonestown, only for the relatives concerned,

577
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: because the rest of the whole entourage was the journalists

578
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: and the congressman and and also a lawyer for the

579
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: for the temple called named Charles Gary. And I read

580
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: his did he read his statement to the FBI? I

581
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: didn't find it. That's such a huge fun Yeah, yeah,

582
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: that was interesting. Yeah, they were. There are actually two

583
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: attorneys there that two attorneys there that day, there was

584
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: Charles Gary and Mark Lane, and their their story was

585
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. Actually, um, I'll tell you a little

586
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: bit more about that, but prior to that, the Congressman

587
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 1: is in the entourage arriving in Jonestown. Of course this

588
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: came out in statements that all that everybody gave the FBI.

589
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: They were told and there was no one certain terms,

590
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: to act really happy, don't talk to these people if

591
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: you could possibly help it. Just go about your your

592
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: duties and just act like you're really thrilled to be here.

593
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: And of course you know, and of course they got

594
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: better food. That was one of the nice things about

595
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: having visitors come, because then suddenly they would get a

596
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: little meat for a change, and not just rice and

597
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: rice engraving and so yeah, and and and so they

598
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: put on this whole dog and pony chow chow to

599
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: make then and they actually had Ryan a bit fooled

600
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: at first. Uh. And then at that point he told

601
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: people that he was there if possible, if anybody wanted

602
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: to leave, to take them with him if you want to.

603
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: And so you'd encouraged people to let him know that

604
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: anybody wanted to leave. And meantime, uh, some of the

605
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: journalists that were there, we're getting little note handed to

606
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: them from people who were living in Jonestown and Jones

607
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: or something notes in the order I want to get

608
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: the hell out of here. Please. When did Ryan? When

609
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: was Ryan in Jonestown? He was there. He arrived on

610
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: November seventeenth, nineteen seventy eight, which is a Friday. Yeah,

611
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: and then uh, things really kind of went all to

612
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: hell the next day on November eighteen, because yeah, I

613
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: was I was just sitting here thinking. I can't remember

614
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: if he was here for two or three days? Yeah,

615
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: two days. Yeah. So at this point he realized that

616
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: there were people who wanted out, not everybody was drilled

617
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: and happy to be there. And yeah, and he told

618
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: Jones this, that people wanted out. And I believe the

619
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: number of people that wanted that Soul said they wanted

620
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: to go out was ultimately fourteen, but the number actually

621
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: was really a lot higher. I think a lot of

622
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: people were afraid to speak out. Yeah, yeah, I understandably. Yeah,

623
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: but I told you about the attorneys Mark Lane and

624
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: Charles Gary. Those guys actually didn't have a good relationship

625
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 1: at first, but it's sort of got better as as

626
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: And at one point they took a little walk. I

627
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: think it was Friday afternoon, it might have been Saturday,

628
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: but and I got this from Gary's statement to the FBI,

629
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: and Mark Lane said to him and says, don't tell

630
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: anybody this, but there are a lot of people in

631
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: this place who want out. You mean, Gary said to Lane.

632
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: Lane said that to Gary Gary, Gary was totally Gary

633
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: hadn't spent a lot of time in Jonestown and he

634
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: was totally totally had the wool pulled over his eyes

635
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: about this whole thing. So Lane was also a lawyer

636
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: for the temple. Yeah, he was. That was one of

637
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: the reasons they didn't get along is that Gary thought

638
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: he was the council for the temple and the found

639
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: out that that they found out that they had another

640
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: lawyer working, and then that really that really picked him off.

641
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: Time eventually got over it and they wound up actually

642
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 1: escaping together. But the so Lane told Gary that at

643
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: least a hundred and fifty people wanted out really bad,

644
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: and maybe he's thinking maybe his highest three hundred people

645
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: and how many people were living there at the time,

646
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: about the thousand, Yeah, roughly a thousand. Seems like maybe

647
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: a thousand actually wanted out. I mean, if you were

648
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: one of the elite, you know, you got to you

649
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: got to carry a gun and push people around it

650
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: you got better food, and you didn't. But how many, realistically,

651
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: like what percentage of them were the elite right at

652
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: the most? Yeah, not even probably more like about five

653
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: percent probably didn't want out. Okay, let's let's let's delve

654
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: into this a little bit as well. There is a

655
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: part of the masses that were happy. They're not all

656
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: of them, but happy. One of the reasons that those

657
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: people were happy and content is that they were on drunks, which, Joe,

658
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 1: do you remember what it was that they were feeding people.

659
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: I keep wanting to call it thorsen, and I know

660
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: that's not it. It's it was it was something to

661
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: keep them calm. Yeah. Yeah. And then and of course

662
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: if you if you can, committed a serious infraction, they

663
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: would send you that They send you off to this

664
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: this house where you'd basically be heavily sedated for weeks

665
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 1: at times sometimes. So people were super drugged up. They

666
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: were functional, but they were super drugged up. And so

667
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: they were happy, it's okay, no big deals. While they

668
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 1: may have in a sober state of mind, wanted out

669
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,439
Speaker 1: in their state of mind, when everybody showed up, there

670
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: was a portion of them where the drugs were seriously

671
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: doing their job. And also also people didn't dare. A

672
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: lot of people didn't there confide to one another two

673
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: because Jones encouraged them all to inform in each other,

674
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: So you don't know who to trust. Yeah, I remember

675
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: the remember those people, and hopefully I remember remembering this,

676
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: remembering this correctly. But the people who pre pre positioned

677
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: some stuff in the jungle for for their escape, right, Yeah,

678
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: and they finally had to go. They didn't tell their

679
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 1: kids about it because they were afraid their kids would

680
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: inform on them. And so and then they go to

681
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: get their kids and tell the kids, Hey, you know,

682
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: we we gotta get out of We're leaving that. Sorry

683
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: we didn't tell you before, but now we're going. So

684
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: we're going down because it's like, oh, thank god, I've

685
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: been wanting to say something, but I was afraid you

686
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: to inform on me. Yeah. But then but then Ryan

687
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: shows up and he's saying, hey, anybody want to leave

688
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: and these guys decided to throw it with Ryan instead.

689
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: Well it's probably looked like a life raft. Oh yeah,

690
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: definitely turns out it had lots of holes. Yeah, bullet holes. Yeah.

691
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: Back to what what Mark Layne said to Gary that

692
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: Charles Gary, Uh, if he's right, at least probably at

693
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: least a hundred and fifty people were murdered because if

694
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: they were forced to drink cyanide against their will, So

695
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: we're talking the whole thing wasn't just a mass suicide,

696
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: it was a mass murder. Also, keeps deal, there's tons

697
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: of detail about this, and if you want to read

698
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: the FBI file, just send me an email and I'll

699
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: send you the link and post it. Yeah, well it's

700
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: that's a hard part. Is said. I don't think we

701
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 1: can actually post the FBI files, not because I know

702
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: we can supposed to link to them, but we can

703
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: waiting through a lot of Yeah, be prepared to search

704
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 1: through hundreds of documents that are hundreds of pages thick.

705
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: In fairness, I kind of have the impression that our

706
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: listeners would enjoy something like that. Oh no, no, no,

707
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just telling people. Yeah, well, we'll send

708
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: you the link. But be prepared to be over well

709
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: hours reading. I know Joe Diday's it's yeah yeah, So

710
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: I hate to cut this short, but the whole story

711
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: of them leaving the temple and getting out to the

712
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: air strip where they were will be picked up by

713
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: two airplanes the fourteen defectors, right, yeah, and plus the

714
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: entourage for Ryan. Yeah. Yeah. The whole story is a fascinating,

715
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: spell binding tail in and of itself. What happened at

716
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: the airstrip and everything, and what happened on the way

717
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: out to the airstrip. But I'm going to summarize it

718
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: really briefly. And I was reading that and I read

719
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: I read that story, like I say, interviewed all the

720
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: people that survived, and so I read that whole story

721
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: again and again and again, but told from a different

722
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: point of view, and it's very rashavon, like everyone was

723
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: kind of different. Some of them were a lot different,

724
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 1: and of course they all did different things, like one

725
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: guy ran off into the jungle and hid and just

726
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: washed in horrors what was happening. But anyway, back to

727
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: our thing, that the airstrip was six miles away from

728
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: Jonestown and they got all the way out there, and

729
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: then they were dropped off by a truck from Jonestown

730
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: and which turned and left, and their planes had not

731
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: yet arrived. But then pretty seen, the small one shows up. Uh,

732
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: then the larger one shows up. It's time to get

733
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: on board one of the Uh. One of the guys

734
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: that was there was a guy named Joe Wilson who

735
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: was head of security there and he apparently had he

736
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: was he was not defecting. But another guy who was

737
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: a plane, his name was Larry Layton, claimed that he

738
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: did wanted a fact, he wanted to leave. Joe Wilson

739
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: apparently gave late in the gun. So Layton got aboard

740
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: the small plane and then he started shooting people. And

741
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: at this time a tractor shows up from Jonestown telling

742
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: a trailer with a bunch of guys on it with

743
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: guns and automatic rifles. Yeah seven not all they were

744
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: automatic rifles. Yeah. And they showed up with guns and

745
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: started shooting the place up. Real good congressmen. Ryan was killed,

746
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: along with a bunch of other people, several of the journalists.

747
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: Several of the journalists were killed, a lot of people

748
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: were wounded. Also, some people escaped into the jungle and

749
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 1: there wasn't there one person who hid like under a

750
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: house that happened actually in Jonestown. That was in Jonestown. Yeah, sorry,

751
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. I'm jumping. Yeah, that's it's okay.

752
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: There's so many this is one of those things kind

753
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: of just a spiral. Yeah, yeah, there there's so many

754
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: individual stories it's hard to keep him straight. Yeah, and uh,

755
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: fascinating story. But anyway, Yes, some people survived the Congress.

756
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: That's why I said there was an assassination I considered

757
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: to be an assassination the congressmen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So

758
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: the whole thing was really tragic. The shoots all left

759
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: and went back to Jonestown where the infamous mass murder

760
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: suicide took place. It was really gruesome, especially the babies.

761
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: They did the babies first. Yeah, yeah, right, for I mean,

762
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: I think we're kind of making the assumption that people

763
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: do know what happened, and we've kind of alluded to it.

764
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,439
Speaker 1: But I think in no uncertain terms we can say,

765
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: right that the people that were members of this cult

766
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: or whether willing or not, almost all of them drank

767
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: a kool Aid cyanide mixture and died and died. And

768
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: maybe I think a few of them got shot. Um

769
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: they I mean, you know, I think that we were

770
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: going to talk about this a little bit, but you know,

771
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: it was poured down babies throats. Yeah, people were held

772
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: at gunpoint, told to drink this liquid if they wouldn't

773
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 1: if they refused. You know, there were people who had

774
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: needle marks in them in places where it couldn't have

775
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: been self injected, like in the back, shoulder blade. And

776
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: it's speculated that maybe the needle marks were they were

777
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: held down, or the needle marks were from them giving

778
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: them more of something because they were having such an

779
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: adverse reaction. So it's not a smooth, peaceful transition. It's

780
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: a giant seizure. So let's just get them out and

781
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: due him in. I don't think cyanide is a super

782
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: pleasant no. Well, but it wasn't a straight cyanide concoction.

783
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: There was other stuff, but that makes it even worse

784
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: a little bit great, But so I just wanted to say,

785
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, I think we're kind of making the assumption

786
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: that everybody knows, but I think it's unsafe to make

787
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: that assumption. I'll be the horrible person and just say

788
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: that's what happened. And a lot of the murder suicide

789
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: that we're talking about. Yeah, and so over nine hundred

790
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: people died. Part of the part of the description of

791
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 1: what happened there is next to a guy named O'Dell Rhodes.

792
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: He's the one who snuck off, smart guy hit under

793
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: a hit in her building and witnessed a lot of

794
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 1: this stuff. It must have been really fun to watch.

795
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: I'm sure say he felt glad to be where he

796
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: was and not out there drinking the kool aid. I

797
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: still can't imagine though, I would have been found because

798
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: of the sounds of mehrking my guts on just but

799
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: also just like crying, yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Some of

800
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: the other like the one of the accounts of one

801
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: of the guys who escaped when they started shooting up

802
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: the airplanes at the airstrip, he ran off to the

803
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: jungle about fifty yards away, and from the brush he

804
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: looked back to see what was going on. The guys

805
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: with the with the rifles were blowing people's brains out

806
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: at point blank range, spending finishing off the wounded. Well,

807
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: that had to be pretty horrifying to watch too. If

808
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: you want to hear anything disturbing We've talked about the

809
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: White Night tapes, so those were preparation for something going wrong,

810
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: and this the shooting of Congress and Ryan, that's something

811
00:42:55,480 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: going wrong. That last tape of Jim Jones is available

812
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: on the internet, and if you want to listen, it's

813
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: forty five minutes long. If you want to listen to something,

814
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: it's kind of creepy and kind of disturbing, but gives

815
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: you a pretty good perspective of what they were thinking.

816
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: Listen to that thing. I skimmed through bits and pieces

817
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: of it. It's really to me hard to listen to,

818
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 1: but it'll give you an idea their frame of mind. Yeah,

819
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: just want o crazy. But anyway, yeah, well making sure

820
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: that says that. Yeah, just a slide aside. The two attorneys,

821
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: Mark Lane and Charles Gary, after after Leo Ryan left

822
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: with all the factors that Jones was obviously he pretended

823
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: at the time, he said goodbye, shook their hands, gave

824
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: him back their passport. She pretended to be okay with it,

825
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: but he was actually, of course not okay with it. Furious,

826
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: I believe, yeah, And he said that. The two attorneys says, you, guys,

827
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: I want you to go to the East Guesthouse. That's

828
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: like in the east side of the compound, which is

829
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: the house that Jones original they lived in at first

830
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: until his final quarters were built. Says, you guys need

831
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: to go to the East West house. Everybody is really mad,

832
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: and the attorneys are going and what are you talking about.

833
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: People don't look all that mad to me, to us,

834
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: and says they're really mad. They're really mad. You just

835
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: better go there, and so they're like, okay. They took

836
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: their bags and they and they had it off to

837
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: the east side of Jonestown. It's on the edge of

838
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: the Jonestown and sat in there for a while pondering

839
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: what to do. Then they looked out the window and

840
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: they see a couple of guys, uh security guys coming

841
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: into the hut next door to their house. And they

842
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: came back out with a couple of rifles, and then

843
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: they came over to their their to their house, and

844
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 1: actually they weren't threatening, they were friendly, but they were

845
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: talking about how we're gonna they're going to commit revolutionary

846
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: suicide and all this stuff, and it would say it's

847
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: a blow for the workers cause in the idy got

848
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: and and the lawyers say, okay, that's that's cool. You

849
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: might want to think about something a little less drastic maybe.

850
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: And and after they left, these guys left and headed

851
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: off to the pavilion, which is where it was gathering

852
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: for the big, big show that the attorneys like looked

853
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: at each other and said, we should get out of here. Yeah,

854
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: And they snuck away and went into the jung Mill

855
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: And they spent the night in the jungle hiding there.

856
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: There's some gunshots and things like that, but yeah, they survived.

857
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 1: Smart move. Yeah, I definitely would have booked. Yeah, back

858
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: to the Mills. Afterward of what happened at Jonestown got

859
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: back to the US, the Mills family and a lot

860
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: of other concerned relatives and defectors, et cetera. Were put

861
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: under police protection because, of course, as I said, not

862
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: every temple member died, and the ones who survived a

863
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: lot of them were the worst of the worst. Are

864
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: seeing the worst of the worst, not the worst of

865
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: the worst? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The ones who didn't

866
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: take the poison where I think, for the most part,

867
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: the ones who forced everybody else too. And obviously they

868
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: weren't as committed to the church apparently not, and they

869
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: might have they might have rationalized it to themselves. All.

870
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: You know that the Reverend Jones really wanted me to

871
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: offer myself. But you know, I'm gonna tell myself that

872
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stay alive to get revenge on all those

873
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: nasty defectors that could cause didn't Jones die? Yeah, drank

874
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: the kool a too. He shot him at the same time, right, Yes,

875
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: he died everyone else so I think his wife drank

876
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: the kool aid and in the end he ended up

877
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: taking his own life with a gun. Yeah. I went

878
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 1: to the FBI files on Jonestown anyway and found the

879
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: FBI's list of the most fanatical supporters of Jim Jones. Well,

880
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: this is compiled from the testimony of the survivors that

881
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: they interviewed. I also went to the files to try

882
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: to find out who lived and where they wound up.

883
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: And some of them actually lived and wound up back

884
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: in the US. Yeah. Starting with Terry Buford. She was

885
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: I think probably his one of the top people in

886
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: this organization, and she one interview, he said interview, he

887
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: said that she is the most dangerous person alive. Many others,

888
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: many others agreed with that. She's though she was one

889
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: of the elite. Gun carries the elite. Yeah, I one

890
00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: of the elite and apparently means statistic dangerous back in

891
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 1: the US. Well, so, just as an interesting little point,

892
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: right that in this time it was a lot of

893
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: mixed races that were part of Jonestown. And also the

894
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: fact that there were a lot of women in high positions.

895
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: That's odd for anything of this time. So I'll just

896
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: go ahead and point that out. So at the very

897
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: least Jim Jones was equal. He was very progressive that

898
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: in terms of race. Yeah, he wasn't a raging e gallitarian.

899
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: We consider the way he ran his organization. Where did

900
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: he start out again, where did the church? Where did

901
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: the temple start out? It started out in Indiana. No,

902
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember, is that I remember the fact

903
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: that he didn't care about race because I know that

904
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 1: he lived in an area that was a mixed population,

905
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: which at that time was probably considered a slum. And

906
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that I know he kind

907
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: of espoused about when they got to San Francisco. Well,

908
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: it's not or gender, because those were both really big

909
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: issues at that time. Anyway, So he had a lot

910
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: of women hired his organization because he was having sex

911
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: with him. Fair but for them all to be you know,

912
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, equality man, Yeah yeah, equality, I don't know. Yeah.

913
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: So who else and are on our list from the FBI?

914
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: Stephen Jones was Jim Jones Son who was considered even

915
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: more dangerous than Jones, but luckily he was captured by

916
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: the by the Guineas and I believe he want spent

917
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: some time in prison down there. Oh they even recognized

918
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, Larry Layton, the shooter at the airstrip. He survived,

919
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,760
Speaker 1: but he was arrested, put on trial, and in prison.

920
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 1: He was imprisoned in Guiana until two thousand two. So

921
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: not a threat for the to the mills because some

922
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: other ones. That's a guy named Tim Jones. Again, these

923
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: are all the dangerous people. Don't know where about unknown?

924
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: Sandy Bratsch also considered dangerous whereabouts unknown? Uh, Eugene Smith,

925
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: Carl Bon, A dozen people. There's a lot of people,

926
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: and uh, there are several of them. Jimmy Jones Jr.

927
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 1: And John Cobb were in the US. They identified as

928
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: being in the US. So I mean and also that

929
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,720
Speaker 1: does this is not even these none of these guys

930
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 1: were the guys that were on the trail. They're being

931
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: pulled behind the tractor that slaughtered all those people with

932
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 1: the airstrip. You gotta consider those guys dangerous too. Yeah. Yeah.

933
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 1: So anyway, the point I'm making here is that is

934
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: that there were some dangerous people still on the loose us. Yeah,

935
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, and so they had reason to be

936
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: a little bit of fearful for their lives. So I

937
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: guess this brings us back to the initial question, who

938
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: killed them? Killed the Millers because the Mills, I, I

939
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: gotta be honest with you, I a little bit forgot

940
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: that that's what we were talking about. Well, we talked

941
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: about them for fifteen minutes, and now for the next

942
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: forty minutes we've talked about Jonestown. How did you forget

943
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: about the mill I don't know, but it was It's

944
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: very important background. It's the backstory to this whole thing.

945
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: I tried, I admit I tried to research this without

946
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: getting into Jonestown. There's no want to go down. It

947
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: was impossible. Anybody who was a part of that church group, cult,

948
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: whatever their story is tied up in it. Yeah, even

949
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: even the Mills, you know, the Mills. Even though they

950
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: never went to Jonestown at all, they still were involved

951
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 1: in the whole thing and trying to get people out

952
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: of there. Yeah. But by the way, this is the

953
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 1: side that there's a really great book about Jonestown called

954
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: Journey to Nowhere by Sheva and I Paul, and it

955
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: was published in the UK end of the title black

956
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: and white. But it's excellent book. I highly recommended. Sheva

957
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: and I Paul was brother of the brother of V. S.

958
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: And I Paul, who I'm sure you've heard of, literary

959
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: giant and all that, and she Sheva was also quite

960
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: a liberal literary giant. But he died unfortunately at the

961
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: age of forty of a heart attack, which is kind

962
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 1: of tragic for the world because he was a great writer.

963
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 1: But I recommend that book high. Like, now, that's not

964
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: a side. I guess we got to figure out who

965
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 1: killed the Mills family. Yeah, alright, let's lead off with theories.

966
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 1: You guys have any theories you like, I mean, no, no, okay, okay.

967
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: One theory is that Eddie did it. This is of

968
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: course what the Berkeley PD seems to think. They revived

969
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: this later on in the in the early adds a

970
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: cold case detective from Berkeley the dope back into it.

971
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: I guess reanalyzed the evidence and contacted the family and

972
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: asked them for any possible support he evidence that they

973
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 1: could sup goold supply. The family was basically like, we

974
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 1: don't think Eddie did, and we can't think of any

975
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: any evidence you know that's relevant that we're gonna give you.

976
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 1: So that was that, and you have this guy. The

977
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: detective still pursued his case against Eddie and managed to

978
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: get Eddie re arrested again, and that was in right. Yeah,

979
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: how did was he like out of the country or Yeah,

980
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: he was living in Japan. He actual he actually got

981
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 1: married at a couple of kids. It was living in

982
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: Japan and he came back for the holidays. So this

983
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: was an early December two thousand five, and they arrested

984
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: him at the airport. But I gotta say, I haven't

985
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: seen their evidence. I assume they've got more than just

986
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: the gunshot residue, because if that's all they've got, then dudes,

987
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: well that's the hard part is that it's a it's

988
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: technically it's a cold case, so they're not going to

989
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: release what they have. Yeah, exactly, so we we can

990
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: guess at what they have, but all we know about

991
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: for sure he's the gunshot. Well, but that's the other

992
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: frustrating thing is that they reopened the case. And usually

993
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: that's because the new evidence has come to light, right,

994
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: that's why they reopened cases. But it didn't seem like

995
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: anything new had come up. Yeah, I don't know. I

996
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: mean they might, you know, I mean, there have been changes,

997
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: and it might be that they still had evidence in

998
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: the evidence room like clothing and and tissue samples and

999
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff like that, and so maybe using

1000
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: DNA they were able to but right to figure something out.

1001
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,439
Speaker 1: Well weren't. So he was arrested, but wasn't weren't there

1002
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: no charges brought against him because the district attorney was like, no, seriously,

1003
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: there's not enough evidence for this. Yeah right, I mean,

1004
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 1: And so even even that's the thing, the big game

1005
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: change there, you would think would be like DNA evidence,

1006
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 1: But the problem with that is Eddie live in the

1007
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 1: same damn houses them, right, their families, Like, hey, Eddie,

1008
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: we found your DNA at the murder scene, we found

1009
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: your fingerprint. Well yeah, weird, I know, I know, So

1010
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I had no idea what fresh

1011
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: evidence this guy's got. As far as the gunshot residue.

1012
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: I did a little research on gunshot residue, and I

1013
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: had no idea. How unreliable that stuffily unreliable. It's bad. Yeah,

1014
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: it is not what the television show c s I

1015
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: tells you. It is. You have gunshot residue on your hands, sir,

1016
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: you're guilty, yeah, case yeah, And according to this, this

1017
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: is the one thing that I read. People can pick

1018
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: it up from the from police officers. You can pick

1019
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: it up from like shaking someone's hand, Yeah, pick it out, Yeah,

1020
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: you can pick up from the police car. From you

1021
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: can I mean, because there's gonna be gunshot residued police

1022
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: stations and a lot of labs are themselves contaminated with

1023
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: that stuff. When you also think maybe like if you

1024
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: put handcuffs that, you've got your gun next to that,

1025
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: you've got your hands next to that, all of that stuff,

1026
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: you put it on someone's hands. Gunshot residue isn't a

1027
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,919
Speaker 1: permanent thing at last. I think it's four to six

1028
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: hours on a surface before it gets rubbed off and

1029
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: eventually diluted and disappeared. So having it on the cuffs,

1030
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: per se. I wouldn't say, but the hands of the

1031
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,720
Speaker 1: cops if they're holding their gun or they've they've shot

1032
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: their gun and put it back in the holster. But

1033
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: that also makes me think, okay, well, if it's four

1034
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 1: to six hours and he's got it in his right hand,

1035
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 1: and he wasn't home that afternoon, and he went and

1036
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 1: saw some friends who happened to be shooting a gun

1037
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: and he greets them. What is the typical male greeting.

1038
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: It's to shake hands, which transfers it to him, because

1039
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: that's how easy it is to transfer this stuff. Well,

1040
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: and also there's there's other things that can give you

1041
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: a false positive on that test, like if you feel

1042
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: like a break mechanic I was told you can. You

1043
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: can actually even though you've not shot a gun at all,

1044
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 1: you'll test positive and break dust. Yeah, I bet there's

1045
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: some you know, stuff that you could pick up smoking

1046
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 1: a lot of marijuana, if you had a certain kind

1047
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,399
Speaker 1: of lighter for instance, right, or if you had if

1048
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: you were playing with fireworks because you're a seventeen year

1049
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,720
Speaker 1: old boy, or you know, there's just so much stuff

1050
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 1: that can cause that positive that it just I just

1051
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 1: don't find it any kind of now. I don't know

1052
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 1: he could have picked it up in his own house too,

1053
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 1: because I don't forget that the gun had been fired

1054
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 1: three times. Yeah, just you know, And and and then he

1055
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: goes and looks at these at the bodies of his family,

1056
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 1: and that that stuff. You know that the residue from

1057
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: a gun chat can can actually go three to five

1058
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 1: feet away from where the gun is, And so he

1059
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: was even if he didn't touch the bodies, if he

1060
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: was touching something right next to them. We've probably got

1061
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: some of that stuff on him. But I can't remember

1062
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: it was all Ergenie. They found him in bed, or

1063
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: maybe it was both. I can't and clarify this for me.

1064
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 1: If you remember, Joe, I know that at least one

1065
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: of them was in bed, Yeah, one in bed was

1066
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: what was in the bathroom was the daughter was in

1067
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: the bathroom. So it's it's entirely I think both parents

1068
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: were in the bedroom. The one of them had fallen

1069
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: out of bed. But the point is if those guns,

1070
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 1: it's that gun was shot in the bedroom, and he

1071
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 1: walks up and he places his hand on that parent's chest.

1072
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: He's gonna pick up the gunshot residue, because that's less

1073
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 1: than three feet away from their head where the gun

1074
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: was fired. Yeah, I mean, I don't Eddie's story is

1075
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: hinky to me, But I've got to say that it's

1076
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:27,399
Speaker 1: completely plausible that he just picked it up accidentally. As

1077
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 1: far as as not hearing the gunshots, again, he was

1078
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: washing his hair. He was washing his hair. Couldn't they

1079
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: think they could have been the killers, could have used

1080
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: a suppressor. As far as there were being no screaming

1081
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: and shouting, Well, you know, when you realize that you're

1082
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: confronted by a raging psycho from the temple who's going

1083
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: to murder you, when your and your wife or your husband,

1084
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 1: you're probably thinking about your kids. And if you're screaming shout,

1085
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: the only thing you're going to accomplish is get Eddie

1086
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: to come out of the room and get killed himself.

1087
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: I think that's the reason Eddie survived. I don't think

1088
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: they were there to kill the entire family if and

1089
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: actually we shouldn't go into that too much anyway, But

1090
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: so don't think it's that suspicious that Eddie didn't hear anything.

1091
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,959
Speaker 1: I mean that sense. So that's why I don't really

1092
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: believe that Eddie did it. So sorry, okay, yeah, yeah, uh,

1093
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: let's let's see the next one. It was it was

1094
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: a drug deal gone bad because Eddie was, after all

1095
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: it addicted to marijuana. Bunk. Yeah. Well, I mean, but

1096
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,439
Speaker 1: in fairness, right, like, if if it was a drug

1097
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: deal gone bad because Eddie was addicted to marijuana, he

1098
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: would be in not a great shape, right, It'd be

1099
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: targeted at him. It wouldn't be targeted at his family

1100
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: at the very least, he would have been involved in

1101
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: some way. Like it's not that it was a drug

1102
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: deal between family members, isn't. Don't you know, people to

1103
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: put that that thing out there. I mean, there were

1104
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: a lot of drugs being shipped down to the temple,

1105
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: but they weren't like recreational drugs. No, I don't think so.

1106
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: But well, and that's that's the thing that I'm wondering

1107
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: about because I know that Joe, who is it there?

1108
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: They're part of this theory is that somebody else was

1109
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 1: supposed to be at the house, and that's who the

1110
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:07,919
Speaker 1: gunmen were after. Okay, okay, Well, we've talked a little

1111
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 1: bit about this, is that there was a lot of

1112
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: drugs in Jonestown. Some I've I've read the accountings that

1113
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: I still don't understand how they did this, but somehow

1114
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: they got around so many regulations to have drugs, pharmaceutical

1115
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 1: grade drugs shipped from the US into Yana and go

1116
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: through customs and get there. Well, that's all. It was

1117
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: probably all those signed letters or some kind of bribe.

1118
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 1: But the point is those drugs were coming from somewhere.

1119
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: This is a year later, so it's possible that somebody

1120
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: got out and intercepted one of those uh those shipments,

1121
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: or was still receiving those shipments locally before they were

1122
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: supposed to be sent down. That's all I don't remember.

1123
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there was there was a whole host of

1124
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: drugs that were being sent to Jonestown. So it's completely

1125
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: plausible that somebody said, wait, there's this completely legal stream

1126
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 1: of drugs that I can get my hands on and

1127
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: then sell on the street. Let's track that guy down

1128
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: and the mills they were in the church, they're going

1129
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: to know about it. Or Stowen was there and we

1130
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: need to get him. And then the whole thing went

1131
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 1: to went to pieces. Yeah. Maybe I know that some

1132
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: people has speculated that they were looking for Stowe. And

1133
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if Stone was actually involved in the

1134
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: whole drug business. And I don't know that at all.

1135
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: Think about was that before he joined the church, he

1136
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: was actually an assistant district attorney the area, and then

1137
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: he left. He left that job for a while to

1138
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: join the Temple, and he did a lot of legal

1139
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: work for the Temple until he got disaffected. He left

1140
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: and joined the Concerned Relatives, and now today he's back

1141
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 1: to being a district attorney. So I don't think he's

1142
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: the kind of guy would get involved with running illegal drugs,

1143
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: But who knows. I mean, if if, how do I

1144
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 1: say this without sounding like I'm bashing on his character.

1145
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: If you can be convinced to fall in with the cult,

1146
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: you can be convinced for at least a duration of

1147
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 1: time to fall into a illegal narcon rate pitation. Probably

1148
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: it's what Israel is not. I don't know, but I'm

1149
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: not sure. If I think the Stone left, I think

1150
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: he left the Temple in the nineteen seventies seven before

1151
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: they went to So yeah, I don't know if he

1152
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: was really involved with the whole level thing. I don't know.

1153
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: They had to have some US contact shipping that stuff

1154
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: down there. That's all I but but I know that's

1155
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: not the only theory we've got that. We've got another

1156
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: one here, a couple more. The FBI murdered them. I know,

1157
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: this is a funny one. That's just hilarious. I just somebody,

1158
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: somebody is to put that, put this out on the internet,

1159
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 1: and I think it's absurd. But yeah, the FBI, and

1160
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: once they rung every bit of information out of the mills,

1161
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 1: they totally interrogated them, and they killed them rather than

1162
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: let the story leak out. That's the dumbest thing. It's

1163
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: really dumb. I have a question. Yeah, what story? What

1164
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 1: story had they not already told books and news interviews? Yeah,

1165
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: And you know the thing about it is too, is

1166
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: that they were at their house interviewing them, and then

1167
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: Eddie before he went off to the bedroom and smoked

1168
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 1: and smoked a little pot and watched two he took

1169
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: he took a long shower. He's washing his hair. Yeah,

1170
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 1: he's washing his hair, and so presumably presumably, uh, he

1171
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: would be making noise. I mean they'd be like interviewing

1172
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: them then then downstairs and and they'd hear the they

1173
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: hear the water running and stuff, and then they hear

1174
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 1: him come out of the bathroom and walked down the

1175
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 1: hallway and go into his bedroom. And this is upstairs,

1176
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 1: but it still would make some noise, so they would

1177
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 1: have known to go that there was somebody else they

1178
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: needed to kill before they left the house. Right, Well,

1179
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 1: maybe that's why Daphne died instead of him as they

1180
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 1: found her because she hid in the bathroom. Yeah, so

1181
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: maybe they found her outside the bathroom. This is so

1182
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 1: much bunk. But this doesn't make a damn bit of sense. Yeah,

1183
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: is there anything? It makes no sense. And the only

1184
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 1: the theory is that you know what, I'm my favorite

1185
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 1: is that it was a people's temple hit team. It

1186
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: really does. There was there was motive. There was motive,

1187
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 1: and those people were killers at and there was a

1188
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen. If if you do go to that

1189
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: FBI side that we were talking about and you start

1190
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: reading through there's docs, there is so many accountings of

1191
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 1: the hit squad. They're gonna go after, they're going to

1192
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: do this. I mean, it was Jones was saying this

1193
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: over and over and so many these interviewees. This was

1194
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 1: always popping up in these interviews, which is just scary. Yeah, yeah,

1195
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 1: I mean it had to. Once you're done in Beanna

1196
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: and your passportsman confiscated and all your money too. These

1197
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: people must have been just scared out of their minds.

1198
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 1: I mean you're being looked, you know, being beaten for

1199
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: the slightest infraction. You don't dare talk to anybody else

1200
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: because they might rat you out. And this guy is

1201
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: and you can sell from watching Jones was deteriorating by

1202
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: the end. He was lunear and lunear, and he said

1203
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: he told everybody had multiple forms of cancer or multiple diseases.

1204
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: It's also speculated that he was getting more and more

1205
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 1: into the drugs that they were shipping in. Oh, if

1206
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 1: you listen to that Jonestown tape that I talked about

1207
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 1: on the Last Night, if you listen to earlier recordings

1208
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: of Jones, his voice is pretty clear and he's running

1209
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 1: an easy train of thought. And then you listen to

1210
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 1: the Jonestown Last Night tape and he almost he has

1211
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: a bit of a lisp, which if you've ever been

1212
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: around somebody who's heavily drugged or has been on drugs

1213
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: for a long time, like they're there, their speech functions

1214
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:13,959
Speaker 1: start to slow and stumble, and that's what he sounded like. Yeah,

1215
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: it's it's really yeah, So it wouldn't surprise me a

1216
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: whole lot. Yeah. So anyways, back to Eddie for a second.

1217
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: As I said, he was re arrested once again. He

1218
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 1: did a few days in the pokey and then they

1219
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: put it in front of the d a's office again,

1220
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: and again the d S office does no. And that's it.

1221
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: So they went back to Japan's went back to Japan,

1222
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: and I'll bet you he'll never come back to the

1223
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: st at that point. But he's got you know, I

1224
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: think I think he's got a built in defense there.

1225
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: Though again, I mean it's obviously obviously the three of

1226
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: us the most brilliant detectives in America. It's not the way.

1227
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 1: Have already concluded that there's no way the prosecution can

1228
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: win a case against Eddie. I mean, unless unless they've

1229
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 1: really got some serio reously damning evidence against him. There

1230
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: there ain't no way. So it's a waste of time,

1231
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 1: you would. You have to have to find the smoking gun.

1232
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: That's the only way they could ever pin it on Eddie.

1233
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: They found a gun in his stuff, and it just

1234
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 1: never got brought forward. That's not happening because if you

1235
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,959
Speaker 1: did have a gun, he's gotten rid of it by now. Yeah. Yeah.

1236
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 1: And the other thing, that's another thing I forgot to mention,

1237
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: is that is the gun. They didn't find the gun, Eddie,

1238
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 1: isn't so Now, if you're going to take off after

1239
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 1: you burger your family and go get rid of the gun,

1240
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: which I presume you gonna want to do a sun

1241
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 1: distance from your house hopefully, yeah, you don't just drop

1242
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: it down the storm drain in front of your house.

1243
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: So obviously he had to go a little distance. Now,

1244
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't it make sense to just stay away for a

1245
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 1: while and then come home a little late and say,

1246
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: oh my god, I s not got the back because

1247
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 1: I wanted to go like hang out with my buddies

1248
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 1: and smoke some pots, smoke some pot and uh and

1249
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: I'm not now that's put these cars here and dead buddies.

1250
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god. And instead he just goes up, he

1251
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: goes out, disposes of the gun, comes back, this goes

1252
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 1: to his room and sits around, knowing that that's going

1253
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 1: to arouse suspicion, right, Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, Yeah,

1254
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 1: I've seen speculation that maybe Eddie wasn't as disenchanted with

1255
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: the temple as his parents were granted five years later

1256
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 1: because they left in Okay. So his parents were shot

1257
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:32,200
Speaker 1: five four and a half, five years later. But there's

1258
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 1: speculation that he wasn't as disenchanted or as an angsty

1259
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: teenager was saying, oh so much better when we were

1260
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 1: with the temple blah blah blah, and somehow was coerced

1261
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: in doing it that way. But that, again, that doesn't

1262
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: make any sense to me because the timeline is too long.

1263
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 1: If it had been a year, I could totally buy

1264
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 1: that if his parents had left the year before and

1265
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 1: then he you know, you could see him doing it

1266
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: then because he miss that and he still believe. But

1267
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:04,480
Speaker 1: five years just too long for me. Well, the other

1268
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: thing that the interviewing thing, of course, was Jonestown. And

1269
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: you know, even if you've been a little miffed, and

1270
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:11,920
Speaker 1: I'll say at age twelve when they left, you know,

1271
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 1: after seeing what happened at Jonestown, he's got mom and dad.

1272
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 1: I've been a little angry with you, but you know what,

1273
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: I thank you. I really want to thank you for

1274
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 1: saving my life. Yeah, yeah, I don't think he'd be mad.

1275
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no way. So I

1276
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: don't know unless unless it's just a raging psycho. He

1277
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 1: hasn't exhibited any other raging psycho tendencies anywhere, not at all.

1278
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, and so again yeah, people stample, people stample,

1279
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: people stample. Okay, so Mr Solid, it's time to wrap

1280
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: this up and let you wonderful listeners get on with

1281
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: your day. You can find this episode, plus all the

1282
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: related links and stuff like that, on our website, which

1283
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. I can leave comments

1284
01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 1: and listen to the episodes right there. More likely you're

1285
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 1: getting the episodes from iTunes. Yeah. If you haven't subscribed yet,

1286
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: please do subscribe, and also give us give us a review,

1287
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 1: preferably a nice review, but just give us a review.

1288
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: We'd like that. You can stream us from god knows

1289
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 1: how many websites these days, how many services? I have

1290
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 1: no idea how many are there? I don't know anymore,

1291
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,599
Speaker 1: I can't I don't even know how many I've signed

1292
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 1: us up for. Ye, okay, we can. You can also

1293
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 1: find us and friend us on Facebook. We have a

1294
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 1: Facebook page and also a group, so Thinking Sideways Podcast, right, Yeah,

1295
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Twitter, where we are

1296
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. We left the gut I don't know why

1297
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 1: and probably character character limit. Yeah, and of course if

1298
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 1: you want to set us an email, we love to

1299
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,639
Speaker 1: get emails, especially if you like rape about how wonderfully awesome.

1300
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 1: We like those a lot. Our email address is Thinking

1301
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:57,639
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Oh and don't forget

1302
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 1: we've we've got the merchant I available, which is on

1303
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 1: the site, right merch And what do we got? We

1304
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: got T shirts, smugs, Jazzle, iPhone cases, a night light

1305
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 1: and it's all Yeah. So if you see on the

1306
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 1: right hand side bar, there'll be a set of self

1307
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 1: and it ull says Azzle, and then the buttons underneath

1308
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 1: it and you just go there. Yeah, that's cool. The

1309
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 1: nightlight but I don't know if we mentioned it. The

1310
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:26,719
Speaker 1: nightlight was suggested about one of our listeners. Yes, yeah, yes, yeah,

1311
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: because she accidentally listened to some of our stories late

1312
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 1: at night and creepd out, and so we designed her

1313
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 1: super creepy nightlight. Yes, she's actually worse off now, Okay,

1314
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 1: So that's that's about it, folks. Until next week. This

1315
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:49,200
Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways Podcast saying sayanara by everybody, Bye guys.