1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 2 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: My guest today is Fred Malin, record producer, composer, Songwriter's 3 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: got a new book, Unplugged. 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: Fred. Why this book and why now? 5 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 3: Well, you know, Bob, I felt that the hard drive 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 3: up here gets a little full, so I wanted to 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 3: make sure I remembered stuff. And that was probably the 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 3: first reason why I started putting stories together on paper. 9 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 3: And I also wanted to leave something, you know, for 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 3: my kids and grandkids, et cetera. That would be sort 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 3: of a story of, you know, how to survive through 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 3: a life of music. 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: Okay, and how long did it take you to do it? 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 3: Started, you know, sort of dictating stories into my iPhone 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: about six years ago and then got serious about a 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: year and a half ago. 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: Okay. One of the most striking things in the book 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: is you dropped out of high school at sixteen. How 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 2: did you convince your parents to let you do that? 20 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 3: Well? I had a very understanding mom and a good dad, 21 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 3: but who didn't quite understand as well. And you know, Bob, 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 3: I think we're the same age. But they saw it 23 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 3: coming and so my mom realized that I hated school, 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: especially by the time I was sixteen years old, and 25 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 3: she knew that I wanted to make my life in music, 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 3: and she believed in me, and she was a very 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 3: very much the wind beneath my wings. And we walked 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 3: to the high school together in Merrick Long Island and 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: Calhoun High School and on my birthday and we said goodbye. 30 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: What did the administration say? 31 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 3: Oh, I don't think they gave a shit. 32 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're in a middle class suburb. Did anybody 33 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: else drop out at sixteen? 34 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 3: No? You know, listen in nineteen sixty nine, growing up 35 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: in Merrick Long Island, which is a very sort of 36 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: middle class suburb of New York. You know, I do 37 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 3: have a vivid memory, Bob of me sort of sitting 38 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 3: outside of our house but not particularly close by, but 39 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 3: close enough to hear a conversation that my mom was 40 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 3: having with a neighbor. And this is right after I 41 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 3: quit school, and the neighbor was saying to my mom, 42 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 3: you know, Peg, I'm so sorry about Fred. And I 43 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: was thinking to myself, you know, they must think I'm 44 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 3: going to the circus or that I'm dead, But I 45 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 3: felt more alive than ever. 46 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: Okay, you drop out a high school with the vision 47 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 2: of making any music. Now you're not busy all day, 48 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: what are you doing? Well? 49 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 3: I had a part time job at a bookstore because 50 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 3: I'm a bookworm, and there was a lovely lady in 51 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 3: America who had a paperback bookstore, and I would make 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: some money there. But also, you know, i'd be knocking 53 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 3: on doors in New York trying to get a record 54 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 3: deal as a singer songwriter, and really wasn't quite in 55 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 3: my opinion, I don't think I was as good as 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 3: I needed to be in that particular way. And then 57 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 3: shortly after I went and spent a really interesting year 58 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: in upstate New York with my older brother Larry and 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 3: a bunch of poets in a commune. 60 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: Wait, wait, wait, let's go back those in the book 61 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: you tell some tales you're knocking on doors. You actually 62 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: have an audition with John Hamm and tell us about that. 63 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 3: I God bless you for reading even a few books. 64 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 3: That's just wonderful. You know. I was fifteen and I 65 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 3: had a fourteen year old dear friend, Sam Kashner, who's 66 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 3: become a very esteemed novelist and a biographer. And Sam 67 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 3: wrote a scrawled letter literally I saw the letter later 68 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 3: to John Hammond, and his secretary read the scrawl somehow 69 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: made it out, and John Hammond agreed to let me 70 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 3: audition for him with my buddy who I was fifteen, 71 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: he was fourteen, and we took the train to New 72 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 3: York and went to Black Rock and I had a 73 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 3: loaned out Martin I was using and I played a 74 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 3: few songs for John Hammon, and it was just I was, 75 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 3: you know, ten feet off the ground, because if anyone 76 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 3: doesn't know, John Hammond was the esteemed day and our 77 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 3: man who discovered Bob Dylan, Billie Holliday, and Bruce Springsteen. 78 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 3: So yeah, it was pretty cool and he was very 79 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: kind to me. Bob. He said, I like what you're doing. 80 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 3: He said, I want you to come back in about 81 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 3: two years. I want you to have some life in 82 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 3: front of you. 83 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: Okay, when you were performing for John Hammond, did you 84 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: think you were worthy of a record deal? 85 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 3: I hoped I was. I don't know if I don't 86 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: know if I believe that, but I hoped I was. 87 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 2: Okay, you know, you talk about your mother being the 88 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: wind beneath your wings in that era, we are the 89 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: exact same age, or close to it. And no one 90 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: wanted their kid to be an artist because an artist starve. 91 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: Were you convinced you were gonna make it? 92 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 3: I had a drive, and at that point, my drive 93 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 3: was very focused on, you know, the people, and when 94 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: I was sixteen, the people I really admired, like Neil 95 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 3: Young and James Taylor and Joni Mitchell and all these 96 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 3: kinds of people that were really breaking the rules and 97 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 3: becoming these autobiographical singer songwriters. And I felt like I 98 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 3: was obviously young, but I thought that might be part 99 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 3: of the interest that people might have in me. And I, yeah, 100 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 3: I was, you know, I just hoped. I don't think 101 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 3: it was you know, I don't think I was arrogant. 102 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 3: I think I was just really hopeful. 103 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 2: Okay, you drop out of school, you put all your 104 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: eggs in one basket. It is almost impossible to make it. 105 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: What was going through your head? You were definitely gonna 106 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 2: make it because you were good enough, or you were 107 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: gonna work long enough and hard enough to make it. 108 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: What was happening? 109 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 3: I think all the above. I think I was. I 110 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 3: think I had talent, and I think I had I 111 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 3: was co writing songs with my older brother, and I 112 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 3: thought they were cool. But yeah, I mean, I just 113 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 3: I had a lot of belief in myself and I 114 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: had quit school because of that belief. 115 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,119 Speaker 2: Okay, you were knocking on doors New York City before 116 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 2: you went up state. What kind of reaction did you get. 117 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't get much reaction at all, you know. 118 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 3: I mean it was, first of all, I didn't know anybody. 119 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: You know, I don't come from a show of business family, 120 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 3: and I didn't have anybody at age sixteen that I 121 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 3: could network with. So, you know, I knocked on some 122 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 3: doors and most of them were closed. And I did 123 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 3: get one song published by Warner Brothers Music when I 124 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: was sixteen that my brother and I had written, and 125 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 3: I remember the person who signed that song was a 126 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 3: guy who was in the Belmonts with Dion. His name 127 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,559 Speaker 3: was Fred Mulano, so he was on the Buddy Holly 128 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 3: death tour. I found that pretty fascinating. But yeah, outside 129 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 3: of that song being published that year where I was 130 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 3: sort of working part time at a bookstore and then 131 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 3: the rest of the time trying to knock on doors 132 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 3: didn't really work. 133 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: So how did you decide to go move up north 134 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: with your brother who was considerably older. 135 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, Larry is seven years older, and at that point, 136 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: at sixteen, we had become each other's best friends, and 137 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: he had become very creative. He wasn't supposed to be. 138 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: He was in Georgetown University, actually in the same dorm 139 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: room as Clinton, and two years later he found acting. 140 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 3: And then Quinton went to Ithaca College, which destroyed my father. 141 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 3: But Larry became my best pal because he wanted to 142 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 3: be a poet and he wanted to write, and so 143 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 3: he wrote songs together. And when he moved from a 144 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 3: poetry commune where he was living after he finished school 145 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 3: in Ithaca, New York, in Trumansburg, actually a little bit, 146 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: I guess north of Ithaca, he then decided to go 147 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: to Canada, to Toronto. 148 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, wait a little bit slower. Sure you 149 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 2: got to visit him, Yes, you try to go back 150 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: to school for a minute. 151 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: Oh in Ithaca. Yeah, I went to visit Larry and 152 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: we did this hang for about six months where I 153 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 3: stayed at this commune, this poetry commune. It was lovely 154 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 3: and at the same time, you know what, I was 155 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 3: turning seventeen and there was some not pressure but maybe 156 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: even internal pressure. But I should try to go back 157 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: to high school to get my high school diploma. And 158 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 3: so I stayed with a friend of Larry's in Ithaca 159 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 3: and tried Ithaca High School for that, you know, for 160 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 3: that shot. And I only lasted two days. It was 161 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 3: so poisonous. I just said gotta go and I went back. 162 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 3: And then shortly after Larry went to Toronto, and I 163 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 3: followed him. 164 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: Okay, were you a bad student or not interested? 165 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: Was I a bad student? I really hated school. So 166 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 3: I hated math, and I hated you know, social studies 167 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 3: was okay, English. I could have taught the class because 168 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 3: I was a you know, a bookworm, but no I 169 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 3: a science class. I mean, these things still give me 170 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: the chills. 171 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 2: So you have kids, would you have let your kids 172 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: drop out? And what'd you tell them? 173 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I have two great kids and two 174 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 3: grandkids now. But when I was raising my kids, if 175 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 3: they had shown me that kind of drive and musicality, 176 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 3: I would have said, go for it. 177 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: Well, you know, no one really likes homework. So when 178 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: they would be there with math and science, would you say, no, 179 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: you gotta do this, you got to get your degree. 180 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 3: I was so busy at that point when they were 181 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 3: going through their school at that point. They didn't come 182 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: to me with those things. They just got their work done. 183 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 2: Okay, you're living in Ithaca, and next door is Bob 184 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 2: Mogu tell us about that? 185 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 3: Well, isn't that a great great story? 186 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 2: Yeah? 187 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 3: I mean we were in this lovely old house where 188 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 3: this poetry commune was, and sometimes we didn't have enough 189 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 3: running water for showers. And Bob mog and his wife 190 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: Shirley lived down the road and Ithaca, the neighborhood of Ithaca, 191 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 3: as well as Trumansburg where we were. Trumansburg's a very 192 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 3: small upstate New York town, and we had all sort 193 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 3: of known each other through different sort of community outreach things. 194 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 3: And Bob had heard that I was a musician, and 195 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 3: someone said, oh, you should really invite Fred to your studio, 196 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 3: your workplace, and I did. I got to go to 197 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 3: his Trumansberg studio and try to play with one of 198 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: his you know, mile high tall synthesizers, and he was 199 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: kind to me, and surely especially they would let us 200 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: take showers at their house when we couldn't shower at home. 201 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 3: And then, yeah, that was just a I have a 202 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: great photo. I think I might have put it in 203 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: the book of the of the Mailbox that says Mogue. 204 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: You will also say that Mog goes to work for 205 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: kurtzwhile and you end up using that connection to get 206 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 2: an instrument at a deep discount. Yeah. 207 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 3: When I started to make my way without planning it, 208 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 3: I fell into film and TV composing in around nineteen 209 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 3: eighty five, and I needed to have this. You know, 210 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: there was there, there were fair Lights, there were Saint Clavier's, 211 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 3: and there were Kurzwele's and Bob Mogue was now the 212 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: chief scientist at Kurzweil. So I reached out to him 213 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: and he was really happy to hear from me. He 214 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: had known that I had become a record producer. Now 215 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 3: he heard I was become a TV film composer film 216 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 3: and TV composer, which I told him all about. And 217 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: I said, Bob, I need a great deal on occur 218 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 3: as well, and he said, oh, no, don't you worry, 219 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: You'll get my deal, and away we went. 220 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: Do you remember how much that was? 221 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 3: I think it was around twelve thousand, down from like 222 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: twenty four or something, so I. 223 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: Know it's ancient history, but what exactly was the difference 224 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: between the fair Lights Sinclavier and the kurts Wow. 225 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, the price, the sink Clavier and 226 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 3: the fair Child were very expensive in the I think 227 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 3: I think a sinclavier could have cost one hundred grand. 228 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 3: I don't even remember anymore. It was very stupid high. 229 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 3: But you know, these were the first digital sequencing instruments 230 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 3: and sampling instruments, and everyone you know was using them 231 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: in film and TV composing, and Kurzwew was this very 232 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: unique one, but it was affordable. 233 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit more about the Kurtzwaw. 234 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 3: Well. Kurzwaul was developed by Ray Kurzweil, who was an 235 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 3: incredible scientist, and if you read all about him, his 236 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 3: his work on the reading machine for the blind alone 237 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 3: should get him a Pulletzer or whatever they give you 238 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 3: these days, a Nobel. But he also created this wonderful 239 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 3: instrument which has onboard fantastic samples of piano and synth 240 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 3: and all sorts of orchestral sounds, and you can keep 241 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: adding sounds and you can create your own sounds. So 242 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 3: the nice part about it for me was it was 243 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 3: sort of an inspiration machine. It had it was very 244 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 3: easy to use, so I could literally record something like 245 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 3: a piano pass and then hit track two right on 246 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 3: the same keyboard air and then overdub and then hit 247 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 3: track three, and I would have twelve tracks. And then 248 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: I started to mity things all, you know, I start 249 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 3: to get very involved in film and TV. But it 250 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: was a wonderful I still keep my Kurzwell two fifty 251 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 3: here in the studio because occasionally you need a certain 252 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 3: sound that is a curswew sound. 253 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: Okay, how'd you get out of the draft? 254 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: Oh? 255 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 3: I was real fortunate. I had moved to Toronto and 256 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 3: I became a member of draft Board one hundred, which 257 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: was a draft board that they would only grab people 258 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: from in case of absolutely you know, if everyone else 259 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: couldn't go, they would go to draft Board one hundred. 260 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 3: Then on top of it, Bob I got a really 261 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 3: high lottery number the next year. 262 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 2: Okay, Toronto, I've been many times. I'm going next week 263 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 2: as a matter of fact. But you're there in the 264 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: early seventies. Is it provincial? What's Toronto like? 265 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 3: In the early seventies, Toronto was really a wonderland. I 266 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 3: had made friends on my first visit to Toronto in 267 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: seventy two, made friends with Tony Kosnek, who was living 268 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 3: in a house close to my brother, and it was 269 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: again a very free and lovely time in Toronto was 270 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 3: really blooming and you know, just a lot of artistic 271 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 3: things were happening, and Tony was making a record and 272 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 3: he wanted me to be in the band, and I 273 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 3: was again as a seventeen year old fresh out of 274 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 3: Long Island, Toronto was just exciting to me and working 275 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 3: with Tony was thrilling. In the band was Paul Schaeffer, 276 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 3: who was our piano player, who was fresh out of 277 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 3: Thunder Bay, Ontario. And the guitar player quit and I 278 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 3: had to become the bass player, and Paul actually had 279 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 3: to teach me how to do a better job on bass. 280 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: Let's go back at step. What instruments did you play? 281 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: How did you learn how to play growing up? 282 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 3: Well, I think I was always a drummer because I 283 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: would drum on the tin can garbage cans as a child. 284 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: And then when the Beatles hit, I grabbed guitar and 285 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 3: became very studious as far as just immersing myself and 286 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: trying to play guitar because I was absolutely you know, 287 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 3: just my whole life changed with the Beatles. So I 288 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 3: really was a guitar player who played some drums and 289 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 3: had to learn how to play bass for Tony. 290 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: Okay, So continue the narrative from there. 291 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 3: Well, you know, the one thing that was really fascinating 292 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 3: was when I got there, the Canadian government had passed 293 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 3: a Canadian content ruling that from this day on, everything 294 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 3: on the radio and television had to be thirty three 295 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: and a third percent Canadian. This had never happened before. So, 296 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 3: in other words, a Canadian radio station before seventy two 297 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 3: could play all the UK and American music they wanted, 298 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 3: and played two Canadian songs a day if they wanted. 299 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 3: And all of a sudden, now there was this incredible 300 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 3: gold rush on for Canadian artists to be signed and 301 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 3: Canadian music to be on the radio. 302 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 2: Okay, And how did that affect what you were doing? 303 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 3: I think it just opened up the doors all of 304 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 3: a sudden, you know, all the doors that were closed 305 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 3: to me in New York. Toronto was such an open 306 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 3: city anyway. And then on top of it, there was 307 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 3: a frenzy almost to sign anybody who could play guitar, 308 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: anybody who could write songs, because they had to fill 309 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 3: this thirty three and a third content all of a sudden, 310 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: and Tony was one of the recipients of that. You know, 311 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 3: there was also you know, the government would give you 312 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 3: grants to record records. I mean, it was really quite 313 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 3: a country. But at the same time it helped me 314 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 3: immensely a few years later when I started to produce records. 315 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: Just stopping here for a second, you know, we're living 316 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: in an era of political turmoil and there's friction between 317 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: Canada and the US. Having lived so much in Canada, 318 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 2: what is the difference between Canada and the people in 319 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: Canada and the people in US. 320 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, first of all, I'm a 321 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 3: dual citizen, and I've been a Canadian citizen for many years, 322 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 3: but a landed immigrant for many years before that. But 323 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 3: I feel more Canadian than I do American. I find 324 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 3: it to be very much. I just feel very Canadian. 325 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 3: I feel very lucky to have been sort of allowed 326 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 3: in the country. I feel lucky to have had my 327 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: life there. The weather is terrible, but the people and 328 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 3: the history and the living history that we love there 329 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 3: shows it to be a much more compassionate and a 330 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 3: much more I don't know, tolerant place. 331 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: So tell me about joining a comedy troupe in Toronto. 332 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think, first of all, you know, 333 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 3: in those days especially, you just take every opportunity you 334 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 3: can get. And my brother and two colleagues who were 335 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 3: doing underground theater at that point in Toronto, decided to 336 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 3: try to create their own improvisational comedy group and they 337 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 3: called it homemade theater. But they needed someone to do 338 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: music and that was me. So I was the fourth 339 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 3: member of this improvisational comedy group and I would do 340 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 3: the music for each of their improvisational skits and it 341 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 3: was really quite fun. And then it actually turned into 342 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 3: a situation where the other improvisationally comedy group, Improvisational Comedy Group, 343 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 3: came around from Chicago Second City, and they opened up 344 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 3: in Toronto and they had a real facility and a bar. 345 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 3: So we sort of lost our uniqueness, but we loved 346 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 3: all the folks who had become part of the Second 347 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 3: City Toronto troupe. 348 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: But this was not really amateur. I had success. You 349 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: were working for the government, you were getting paid. Yeah. 350 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: No, I mean, you know again, Toronto was a very 351 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 3: wide open place at that point, very accepting of all 352 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: new ideas and all creativity, and we were, you know, 353 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 3: we were embraced, and yes, we worked for the government. Eventually, 354 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 3: Homemade Theater had their own television show on CBC for 355 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 3: three years, which was a show for children called Homemade Television, 356 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 3: and we were so completely improper on so many levels. 357 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 3: We should never have been on that show. But we 358 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 3: were sort of like Monty Python for kids. 359 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: So in the back of your mind, we were saying, well, 360 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: you know, I'm not on the right track anymore. 361 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 3: Well, you see, he has a lot of derailment, isn't there, Bob. 362 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 3: I mean there's a certain amount of you know, he 363 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 3: starts out wanting to be the Beatles, and now he's, 364 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: you know, a singer songwriter, and now he's this, now 365 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 3: he's that. You know. I just took all the gigs 366 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 3: I could because I could try to do them. And 367 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 3: at the same time, when we were doing Homemade Theater, 368 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: I was still doing my gigs as a singer songwriter 369 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 3: in certain clubs, and I was starting to produce records 370 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 3: because I had fallen into that. So there was a 371 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 3: lot of things going on, Bob that were paying the 372 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: bills in a way that was good enough, but I 373 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 3: could keep doing all of them. 374 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, how did you end up producing records? And 375 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 2: how did you end up giving up being a singer songwriter? 376 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 3: Yeah? How did I give up the dream? Well, first 377 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 3: of all, I want to be honest and say that 378 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 3: I don't think I had what was needed to be, 379 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 3: you know, in the pantheon of the James Taylors and 380 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 3: the Neil Young's and the Joni Mitchells, et cetera. I 381 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: think I was good, And I think what was really 382 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 3: obvious to me, though, is I fell into producing a 383 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 3: friend's demo, and because I sort of knew a little 384 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 3: bit about what producing is, which of course were is directing, 385 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 3: I sort of fell into this and we got a 386 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 3: record deal from the demo, and that was Dan Hill, 387 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 3: a Canadian artist that I had been playing gigs alongside of. 388 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: And all of a sudden we had a first album 389 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 3: of Dance released in Canada and it went gold. We 390 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 3: had a hit record in Canada. It got released in 391 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 3: the States, it didn't do anything. We had a second 392 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 3: album of Dance, which again went gold in Canada but 393 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 3: didn't get well received in the US on twentieth Century 394 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 3: Fox Records and by that time, I had really said, 395 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 3: you know what, I'm not going to go in front 396 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 3: of the camera. I'm going to go behind the camera. 397 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 3: I like arranging music, I like producing records. I want 398 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 3: to do this and I liked it. 399 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 2: So tell us about making the hit with Dan Hill? 400 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 3: Sure, I mean our third album, which was going to 401 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 3: be called Longer Fuse. This was nineteen seventy seven in Toronto. 402 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 3: Had been told by Harvey Cooper, who's a lovely man 403 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 3: and we still stay in touch, who was at that 404 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 3: point head of twentieth Century Fox Records in LA. He 405 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: was politely told that if he didn't have a smash hit, 406 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 3: he'd be dumped. And we were just kids, you know. 407 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 3: I was twenty three, my partner was twenty two. Dan 408 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 3: was twenty two, And just the long story short is 409 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 3: that Dan went to LA and tried to co write 410 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 3: for the first time and wasn't really successful in that. 411 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: But ATB Music was taking his music in the US, 412 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 3: and so they said, why don't you try writing with 413 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 3: Barry Man. And of course Barry was, along with his 414 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 3: wife Cynthia, while you know, probably two of the most 415 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 3: revered songwriters in the history of radio. And so they 416 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 3: didn't do well working together, but Dan left him a 417 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: lyric and Barry then that night put music to the 418 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 3: lyric and sent us a little cassette that he had 419 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 3: done on his boombox where Barry sang and played piano. 420 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 3: And here we are sort of with this sort of 421 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 3: damocles over our head, no knowing if we don't have 422 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 3: a hit, we're going to be dumped. And we hear 423 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: this demo that came in from La and it's sometimes 424 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 3: when we touch and it's really like an Elton John 425 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 3: Your song, Like it's really beautiful and super hooky, and 426 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 3: you know, we just looked at each other and here's 427 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 3: a great thing. 428 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: Bob. 429 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: Then, back then in seventy seven, these kinds of things 430 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: were possible, Like you could say, you know, this could 431 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 3: be a hit, and you really thought it could be 432 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 3: a hit. You know, it wasn't that you had one 433 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 3: percent chance of having a hit. You actually had a chance. 434 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: And this was the song we knew that could be 435 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 3: the hit, and we did cut the track of it. 436 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 3: Dan had a terribly hard time doing the vocal We 437 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 3: probably had ninety six different vocal moves in the comp 438 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 3: done meticulously on faders onto twenty four track tape, and 439 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 3: no matter what, I don't think anything could have stopped 440 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 3: that particular song, especially with women. Women really loved it 441 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 3: and it was a absolute smash all over the world. 442 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 3: We didn't get to number one. I think we got 443 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 3: to number two and some of the charts, and then 444 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 3: I think Jimmy Sorry, Billy Joels just the Way You 445 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 3: Are or Saturday Night Fever or some song from that 446 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 3: might have kicked us out of number one. But it 447 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 3: became an iconic record, which I'm very proud of. Although 448 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 3: I have to be honest, you know, that wasn't my wheelhouse. 449 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 3: Elton John was or James Taylor was. But I found 450 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 3: that sometimes we touched, you know, was so commercial and 451 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 3: so emotional that I couldn't believe it couldn't be a hit. 452 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 3: And some melodic too. 453 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: By the way, Okay, you're working in Canada. You got 454 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: a guy who's got a couple of stiff records. In retrospect, 455 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: were you world class or you just had a great 456 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: song and you managed to get it down. 457 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 3: I think we wanted to be world class, and I 458 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 3: don't think we really were the way I had hoped 459 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 3: we would be. But I think when it came to 460 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 3: making Dan's records, especially the third album, which had sometimes 461 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: when we touch on it, I think we did damn well. 462 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 3: I think became pretty close to being world class producers. 463 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: So ultimately you picture all this money coming in and 464 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,239 Speaker 2: then the label goes under tell us about that. 465 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, well there you go. Isn't show business great? 466 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? 467 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 3: I again one of the how many hits are you 468 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 3: going to have that are that long lasting and that iconic? 469 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 3: And the answer is probably very few in your lifetime. 470 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 3: I was so fortunate to have that hit. And then 471 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 3: I was young enough that we sort of spent the 472 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 3: money before we had it, and we at that point 473 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 3: had moved to LA and we got word one day 474 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 3: in the studio that the Canadian company GRT that had 475 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 3: signed Dan and then we're distributed by twentieth Century Fox 476 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: in the US were going bankrupt and all of the 477 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: money that had started to come in from you know, 478 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 3: early late seventy seven, seventy eight, when the record hit, 479 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 3: all that money and the album sales and everything were 480 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 3: basically heading towards GRT or probably had been received by GRT. 481 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 3: And we actually sent somebody there who watched grt's office 482 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 3: be padlocked and I never saw and my partner and 483 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 3: I and Dan as an artist, never saw probably seventy 484 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 3: percent of that of money. Ever, you know, later on 485 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 3: down the line we would see money. But you know, 486 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 3: as producers and as the artist, you don't get money 487 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 3: from radio play. You only get it from mechanicals, from 488 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 3: the actual record label. So that was a pretty big blow. 489 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 3: And we couldn't get the money because we were so 490 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 3: low on the list of people that were owed money 491 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: that I guess we would have gotten pennies. So what 492 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 3: happens next with you and Dan, Well, we did a 493 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 3: fourth album by the time we found out that the 494 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 3: royalties weren't coming in from times sometimes that we touch, 495 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 3: and that album did come out. But after that, there 496 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 3: was just some things that happened, which again happened in 497 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 3: show business. My partner, Matt McCauley's parents had financed Dan's 498 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 3: original record so that was their production company that did 499 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 3: the albums, and so Dan's lawyers found a way out 500 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 3: of their contract and Dan then re signed with Columbia, 501 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 3: leaving Matt and I no longer involved in producing him. 502 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 3: Matt and I had moved to la under the umbrella 503 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 3: of Clive Davis, and you know, we stopped working with 504 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 3: Dan and there was some lawsuits Buteen Matthew's parents and 505 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 3: Dan and I was out of that loop. But you know, 506 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 3: things happen, you know, crap happens. 507 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: Okay, we talk about how well or poorly streaming pays 508 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: today in a year. How much money do you make 509 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: for sometimes when we touch? 510 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: Now, well, you know I can't divulge that, but it's 511 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 3: not the kind of money you would hope. Sorry, is 512 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 3: it six figures? No? 513 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 2: No? Okay, So how do you get to deal with Clive? 514 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: And what is the experience with Clive? 515 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 3: Well, you know, a lot of good things come out 516 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: of having a hit record, like sometimes when we touch, 517 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 3: and so once we did. I had produced a demo 518 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 3: with matt of a guy named fran mckendrey, which Arista 519 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 3: then signed, and then Clive took notice of us and 520 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 3: realized we had a big hit and said you should 521 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 3: work for Arista as staff producers. And I really wanted 522 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 3: to move to la at that point because I thought 523 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 3: that's where everything was happening. And so Matthew and I 524 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 3: and not Yeah, Matthew and I moved at the same 525 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 3: time in seventy eight, Clive Davis put us up at 526 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 3: the chef to Marmont for six months. We've produced a 527 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 3: number of interesting projects for Clive and then I had 528 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 3: a falling out, which I talked about in the book. 529 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 3: And I don't mind discussing that if that's what you're 530 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 3: looking for. 531 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 2: So tell us. Yeah. 532 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 3: Well, you know, we were sort of Clive's fair haired boys, 533 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 3: and we were doing some nice projects, including an album 534 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 3: for Randy Edelman, and Randy had been signed to Arista 535 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 3: because of his writing a song called Weekend in New 536 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 3: England for Barry Manilow, and so we did a new 537 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 3: album with Randy once we got to LA in the 538 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 3: summer of seventy eight, and in the middle of the album, 539 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 3: we got a phone call. I should say I got 540 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: the phone call. It was an early morning phone call 541 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 3: at the shot to Marmont. I got it, and it 542 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 3: was Clive saying, hey, listen, I want you to stop 543 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 3: working on Randy. I've got a smash hit from Melissa 544 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 3: Manchester and I would love you and Matt to produce it, 545 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 3: but you have to stop everything on Randy. And that 546 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 3: sounded wonderful and I literally just said okay, Well, will 547 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 3: you call Randy and let him know that things are postponed? 548 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 3: Or should I? And he said, you don't get it, 549 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 3: and he hung up, and then he called Harry Maslin. 550 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 3: Harry Maslin had a hit with Don't Cry Out Loud, 551 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 3: and I love Harry, so, you know, I pat him 552 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 3: on the back. He did a great job, but we 553 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 3: lost out because I didn't understand. What I should have 554 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 3: said to Clive was whatever you say. 555 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 2: So how did it literally end with the STA. 556 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 3: Shortly after? You know, we were asked to, you know, 557 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 3: find a home in LA and finish off the projects 558 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: and then say Levy, bye bye. That's life. 559 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 2: So you go back to Toronto. Do you feel like 560 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: you have your tail between your legs? What's your state 561 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: of mind? Well? 562 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 3: I spent the next couple of years in LA. I 563 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,959 Speaker 3: married my wife from Toronto in LA and then we 564 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 3: did We had a nice time, and I was busy 565 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 3: as a producer, but nothing particularly exciting. And my partner 566 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 3: at that point, Matt McCauley, decided not to produce anymore 567 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 3: because he had married someone quite wealthy and so he 568 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 3: didn't have the same passion I had for working with 569 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 3: artists and making their records sound great, so we decided 570 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 3: we want to have kids. So in the winter of 571 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 3: eighty one, Dina and I moved back to Toronto. And 572 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I had my tail between my legs, 573 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 3: but I was certainly hopeful that I had become a 574 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 3: hometown homecoming hero. And I don't think I was. I 575 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 3: think it was sort of, oh, you're back, you know, 576 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 3: So it was it was a little bit of a 577 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 3: rude awakening, you know. 578 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: So how did you restart? 579 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 3: It's amazing what drives people. We had our first child 580 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 3: in eighty four, so I spent a couple of years 581 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 3: back in Toronto, you know, getting a few projects here 582 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 3: and there. One of them was great fun, which was 583 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 3: producing Ronnie Hawkins, and just for the laughter quota, that 584 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 3: was really I mean, I'm good for the next two 585 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 3: hundred years. So you know, I did some cool stuff, 586 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 3: but it, you know, but it was intermittent. It wasn't 587 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 3: like people were knocking down my door to get the 588 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 3: guy who came home. But I think the thing that 589 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 3: really drove me was my first of all, my passion 590 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 3: to keep working musically. And secondly, we had our first 591 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 3: child in eighty four, and I just looked at my 592 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 3: little baby and I just said, I cannot let this 593 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 3: kid be worried about money. So I got to find 594 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,919 Speaker 3: an answer, and I would, you know, I just put 595 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 3: it out there. I fell into a couple of TV 596 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 3: movies that I scored, and you know, that's when I 597 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 3: went to Robert Mogan asked for her as while at 598 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 3: a discount, and all of a sudden, by eighty five, 599 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 3: I had fallen into composing for TV and film in Canada, 600 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 3: doing us work a lot of the times because they 601 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 3: needed Canadian content for certain parts of these Canadian American productions. 602 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 2: So at first your thrilled just to be paying the bills. 603 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 2: But then you wake up and you're a film and 604 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: TV composer. You talk about it in the book that 605 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 2: it's basically a lot of work alone. What's your state 606 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 2: of mind? Then? 607 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 3: Well, I think initially the money was good and the 608 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 3: back end of airplay is wonderful. It gets paid by 609 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 3: at Skapper BMI. And in those days, you know, it 610 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 3: was in Toronto, probably there were about ten other composers 611 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 3: I'd be vying against, you know, and competing against, and 612 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 3: it was just really challenging. Bob. I mean, I liked 613 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 3: the challenge of all of a sudden writing music for TV. 614 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 3: I felt that it was a good instinct. 615 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 2: I had. 616 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: It helped my keyboard chops because I would do everything 617 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 3: on the keyboard and improvise and use the Kurzweilds multi 618 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 3: track sequencer. And I was started doing orchestral scores, just 619 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 3: learning while I earned, and the earning was good. 620 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 2: Okay, there's a hierarchy. It's an international business. There are 621 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 2: household name composers. Once you're doing this, you're saying that's 622 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: my goal. 623 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 3: No. I had such a tremendous respect for the true 624 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 3: top echelon, you know, the John Williams and the Jerry Goldsmith's, 625 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 3: and you know, and of course Randy Newman's brilliant scores 626 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 3: and Thomas Newman, all these wonderful people who I wouldn't 627 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 3: even want to consider myself a film and TV composer 628 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 3: compared to them. But I think where I was working, 629 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 3: which was in TV mostly TV series, dramatic series with 630 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 3: sometimes a lot of horror elements or sci fi elements, 631 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 3: I think I was pretty good for what I did, 632 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 3: but I had no belief I could ever step into 633 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 3: those big shoes. 634 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 2: So you do this for a number of years. Are 635 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: you muddling along or you feel like, oh I'm mistending 636 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 2: what's going on career wise? 637 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 3: These are good questions. 638 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 2: You know. 639 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 3: My again, the money was really good, and it was 640 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 3: stable money in the sense I didn't have to depend 641 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,959 Speaker 3: on a record label and their unique ways of making 642 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 3: sure you didn't get paid how much you really earned. 643 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 3: You know, you got your money from as gap every quarter, 644 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 3: and you got good money for doing the shows by 645 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 3: the productions. So all of a sudden, I was lifted 646 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 3: into a really good level of success financially and had 647 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 3: two kids by eighty seven, and I was just enjoying 648 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 3: everything about life. And even though that it was a 649 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 3: lonely occupation, you know, I worked out of the house, 650 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 3: so everything worked out really well. And I don't think 651 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 3: I muddled along. I think I really tried to do 652 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 3: better each time. But again, you know, I have a 653 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 3: certain amount of belief of what I'm good at and 654 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 3: what I think I'm not quite as good at. But 655 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 3: I think I was good at what I did, and 656 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 3: I tried to please my producers. 657 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 2: So you start off going to John Hammond's office trying 658 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 2: to be James Taylor singer songwriter. Now you're doing film scores, 659 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: definitely faceless behind the business, maybe an end credit in 660 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 2: many of these cases. Sometimes up front now you say, 661 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 2: oh man, I'm thrilled to be in music, or how 662 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: the fuck did I get here? 663 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 3: I think if you look at my career, there's just 664 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 3: these incredible sort of left turns, you know. And when 665 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 3: I fell into TV and film, what really made the 666 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 3: difference was I was a new dad, and my record 667 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 3: career had really been very, very minimal compared to what 668 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 3: I hoped it would be. When I moved back to Toronto, 669 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, the money was coming in 670 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 3: and I just became a human jukebox throwing music into 671 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 3: the computer, and you know, and I was doing three 672 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 3: series at once generally for about fifteen years. 673 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 2: So there are other rock musicians who've gone into this 674 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 2: scoring and done even Mark Mother's Law of Devo never 675 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 2: mind Danny Elfman, etc. Is there a natural connection or 676 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 2: is just pure hard work? 677 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 3: Well? I think someone like Danny or Mark Mothersbow, I 678 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 3: think those are wonderfully talented guys who clearly I think 679 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 3: it was very suitable for them to do that work. 680 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 3: For me, I was doing it against the fact that 681 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 3: I like being around others. I like to work in 682 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 3: a team. When I produce a record, I like to 683 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 3: be with other musicians, and I like to work with 684 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 3: my artists and my engineers. And so when you're doing 685 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 3: TV and film score, you're basically by yourself, staring at 686 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 3: the screen all day under deadlines. So for me, I 687 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,959 Speaker 3: think what I would like to be able to say 688 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 3: is I think that people who worked especially on certain projects, 689 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 3: if you were a songwriter or understood good songwriting and 690 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 3: you were a film composer, you could write really hooky 691 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 3: music because that's what you felt in your head. So, 692 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 3: for instance, if you're writing a theme song, like for instance, 693 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 3: Danny wrote the Simpsons theme song, that's because he's a 694 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 3: wonderful songwriter and he knew how to make a simple 695 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 3: phrase da da da. He just knew. And by the way, 696 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 3: that reminds me of the Jetsons. I think he sort 697 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,879 Speaker 3: of got that good help from the Jetsons. Hey, here's 698 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 3: George Jetson's meet the Simpsons. It's sort of liked that, 699 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 3: and I think that, you know, but it takes someone 700 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 3: like Danny, who who was an Oingo blanco artist and 701 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 3: a great songwriter. I thought, unique songwriter, and I think 702 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 3: that may be a skill that I had which made 703 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 3: some of my music for certain TV series better because 704 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 3: I could write music that actually had more melodic hooks 705 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 3: and more interesting production because that was my background. 706 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 2: Okay, you go on in the book saying if you 707 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 2: missed a deadline, you were out. Are the composers really 708 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 2: that fungible or they say, oh yeah, we like Fred. 709 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 2: You know, hey, he's got something going on, he's overloaded. 710 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,439 Speaker 2: What was really the situation there? 711 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I was doing three series at once, 712 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 3: and you never wanted to tell anybody else you were 713 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,240 Speaker 3: doing those other two series, so you know, you're always exclusive, 714 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 3: and even though contractually you weren't, but you you know, 715 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 3: it was like having three girlfriends. You don't want to 716 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 3: tell the other two. But you know, Randy Newman once 717 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 3: told me, and I've spent a little time with Randy, 718 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 3: but only a little. And when I was in the 719 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 3: midst of my big TV in film years, he just 720 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 3: said to me one day, he said, you know, Fred 721 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 3: were just lowly dogs in a film. And I said, 722 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 3: you know, you're right, because we really are just part 723 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 3: of a team. And what really matters, is you know, 724 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,399 Speaker 3: to get to that broadcast date without any problems. And yes, 725 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,320 Speaker 3: if you got sick and you fell off the treadmill 726 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 3: or something happened and you fell off the treadmill, they 727 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 3: wouldn't blink an eye. It was like, Okay, gotta go. 728 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 3: Someone else has been hired and a way and you're done. 729 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 3: So that kind of sort of damicles pressure was really hard, 730 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 3: but I got through it. I don't think I ever 731 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 3: fell in the fifteen sixteen years that I did it. 732 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 3: I don't think I ever missed a deadline. 733 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 2: How much of getting the gigs is hustle? How much 734 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 2: is waiting for the phone to ring? 735 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 3: Well, you know, in TV and film you have an agent, 736 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 3: and I've had different agents, and they're all people I've 737 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 3: really loved and they've done good things for me. But 738 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 3: their job basically was to let me know what was 739 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 3: out there, and then they might make a phone call 740 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 3: about it and I might have to audition a demo 741 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 3: of ideas musically, and that would be then I'd be 742 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 3: competing against other composers. So the phone didn't ring generally 743 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 3: with a phone call saying hey, Fred, you're the right guy. 744 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 3: But certainly it did happen to some degree, but it's 745 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 3: a combination of everyone's efforts. Keeping your ear to the 746 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 3: ground and being tenacious. 747 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you meet a woman, you chase your to Paris, 748 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,280 Speaker 2: you leave your wife. Oh, Bob, you go to therapy, 749 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 2: and you stop composing. Walk us through this. 750 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,399 Speaker 3: Well, now, Bob, come on, now you know phem the book? Yeah, 751 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 3: I know, we're only human. Well, I make it a 752 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 3: very short part of the book. You know, the truth is, 753 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 3: the book isn't about me. It's really about the people 754 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 3: I've worked with and the projects I've worked with, and 755 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 3: my life in music. So you know, the actual personal 756 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 3: stuff is only there to help the depth of it. 757 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 3: But I did. I'll tell you what happened simply. In 758 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight. I had been scoring film relentlessly, TV 759 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 3: and film relentlessly since eighty five, so you know, that's 760 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 3: a long haul, and I continue to do it till 761 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 3: two thousand and one, actually, But by ninety eight I 762 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 3: was starting to get pretty pretty burnt out. And I 763 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 3: met this lovely girl who was quite young, I mean, 764 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 3: you know, legal but young, and my marriage had been 765 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 3: sort of becoming quite you know, not ugly, but not comfortable, 766 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 3: and I clearly was having a midlife crisis and I 767 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 3: fell in love with someone and left the family to 768 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 3: be with that girl. And it was interesting two years 769 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 3: that we were together. And I don't recommend it for people, 770 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:39,879 Speaker 3: but I mean I sort of had to go through 771 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 3: what I went through. That relationship ended because I couldn't 772 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 3: find a way for the new relationship to ever work 773 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 3: out and be part of my children's lives, and there 774 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 3: was my responsibility was the children first, And so that 775 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 3: ended that relationship. And you know, I tried to get 776 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,239 Speaker 3: back with my wife. We both tried. I failed and 777 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 3: decided by two thousand and one that I needed to 778 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 3: move out of Toronto. I needed to go to Nashville 779 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 3: and go back to making records, which is what I 780 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 3: frankly thought I did well. And I was pretty tired 781 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,240 Speaker 3: of the life of a TV and film composer. 782 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 2: Okay, let's go back a couple of chapters. If you're 783 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,720 Speaker 2: working around the clock, how'd you meet this woman? 784 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,879 Speaker 3: Just happened to meet her. And I have a home 785 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,760 Speaker 3: in Martha's Vineyard that I had for years that again 786 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 3: was you know, bought by the great money I was 787 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 3: making a TV and film and you know, she was 788 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 3: a friend of the family. Basically of this family we 789 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 3: knew and we just met her one time and there 790 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 3: was some initial sparks. 791 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 2: And when was the last time you had contact with her? 792 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 3: I saw her with her child on Martha's vineyard, probably 793 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 3: about eleven years ago. 794 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 2: Okay, you buy a condo in Toronto, do you go 795 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 2: to therapy multiple times a week? What do you learned 796 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 2: when going to therapy? 797 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:19,399 Speaker 3: The first thing you learn is that in Toronto, your 798 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,840 Speaker 3: medical is free. So I had a great psychiatrist and 799 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 3: I saw him five days a week for probably five months, 800 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 3: and it was absolutely wonderful. I mean, I really got 801 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 3: myself back together, you know. I mean, by the way, 802 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 3: I was still working the whole time, but I just 803 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 3: I had Brian McDermott as my doctor and he was lovely. 804 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 3: And after that, you know, as I said, then it 805 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,800 Speaker 3: just came. I just came to the realization that I, 806 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,840 Speaker 3: you know, I spent two years from ninety eight to 807 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 3: two thousand and one, and then that relationship ended. And 808 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 3: once once I decided to make a change, I also 809 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 3: wanted to make a change and go back to making records. 810 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 2: Walk us through that a little bit in detail. You 811 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 2: have a career, you can continue to work, you have 812 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 2: a desire. That must have been a very hard decision. 813 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 3: I don't remember it being a hard decision. I remember 814 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:20,759 Speaker 3: it being something that was so pleasurable in my head 815 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 3: that I could be living in Nashville, which I had 816 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 3: spent some time in and really loved it, working with 817 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,879 Speaker 3: the greatest musicians that have ever been in the same 818 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 3: place together. And I loved making records, and I wanted 819 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,720 Speaker 3: to see if I could go back to making records 820 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,400 Speaker 3: full time. So I was excited. It really wasn't a 821 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 3: hard decision. And plus Bob, I was so tired of 822 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 3: my years of TV and film score I really had. 823 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 3: It was like a fastball pitcher who lost his fastball. 824 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 3: I really could not pitch that that way anymore. 825 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 2: For getting divorce and splitting up the assets after seventeen 826 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 2: years of doing this, theoretically, could you have retired and 827 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,280 Speaker 2: lived off the money that you'd made. Was it that lucrative? 828 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 3: No? No, but it could have taken good care of 829 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 3: me if I hadn't gotten divorced. 830 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 2: Possibly, And so just on a divorce, how do you 831 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 2: heal the family. 832 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 3: With my son? It took longer and with my daughter. 833 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 3: For whatever reason, she got it and she was easier. 834 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,280 Speaker 2: And your ex wife we're. 835 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,399 Speaker 3: Still great friends. My daughter now lives in Tarzana and 836 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 3: she moved from Toronto with her husband and her two children, 837 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,680 Speaker 3: and my ex lives in the guest house than I 838 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 3: see her all the time. She's great. 839 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 2: So your ex never got remarried. 840 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 3: She's with other men, but never married. 841 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 2: Okay, why move to Nashville. 842 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 3: It's because it's so close to the ocean. Yeah, no, 843 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 3: I wish it was. Why Nashville, Well, because there were 844 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:12,799 Speaker 3: one hundred studios and the greatest musicians in the world. 845 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 3: So for me to make records with them really upped 846 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 3: my game and gave me such pleasure that to this day, 847 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 3: every day I'm in the studio is a blessing. I 848 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:23,399 Speaker 3: just love it. 849 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 2: That's why. Okay, Nashville has evolved in the last twenty 850 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 2: five years. You know, in the first decade of the century, 851 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 2: a lot of people in La saying, hey, yeah, you know, 852 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to start over in Nashville. Now seemingly everybody 853 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,279 Speaker 2: moved there. There's a lot of traffic. What was it 854 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,359 Speaker 2: like moving in two thousand and one to Nashville being 855 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:49,520 Speaker 2: a Long Island Jew. 856 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 3: Well probably you know, as goofy as it was for 857 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 3: Long Island Jew to be in Toronto or you know. 858 00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,080 Speaker 2: There are a lot of Jews in Toronto. 859 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, they weren't Long Island though. Believe me, it's 860 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:01,879 Speaker 3: a different Jew. 861 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:03,680 Speaker 2: You know. 862 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 3: I can tell you that when I moved to Nashville 863 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 3: in two thousand and one, it was a sleepy town 864 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 3: still and I had been there over the years and 865 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 3: had always enjoyed it. It was quite foreign to me, 866 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 3: but fun, and I just, you know what, I was 867 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 3: welcomed there. I've never had one moment of in my 868 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 3: face anti Semitism ever in Nashville. 869 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,920 Speaker 2: You know. Okay, so you're now in Nashville, how do 870 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 2: you get work? 871 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 3: Well, I would bring work there. You know. I never 872 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,920 Speaker 3: fell into the world of country music. I did a 873 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,120 Speaker 3: few projects here and there, but when I got to Nashville, 874 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 3: I was already doing work for Disney Records, So I 875 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 3: had kids music I was doing, which was a lot 876 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 3: of fun, generally attached to a big Disney animated feature. 877 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,239 Speaker 3: And I was also doing some singer songwriters that I 878 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 3: liked who liked me. I had just come off of 879 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 3: doing a Christopherson album, a Jimmy Webb album, and a 880 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 3: Barry Man album. And so I guess my cred was 881 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,240 Speaker 3: good with the kind of artists that I wanted to produce. 882 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 3: So I brought work to Nashville. Nashville did not give 883 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:16,280 Speaker 3: me the work. 884 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,840 Speaker 2: Okay. So when you're doing the Jimmy Webb, Chris, Christopherson, 885 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,120 Speaker 2: Berry Man records, you're still living in Toronto. 886 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,280 Speaker 3: No, No, I'm well, okay, I'm sorry. Yeah, did Tennessee 887 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 3: Pieces for Jimmy in nineteen ninety six, did the Austin 888 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 3: Sessions for Christofferson in nineteen ninety seven, and did Barry 889 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 3: Man's Sole In Inspiration in nineteen ninety seven. So yes, 890 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,439 Speaker 3: I was living in Toronto and hadn't left my marriage yet. 891 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, So tell us how you got those records off 892 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:46,400 Speaker 2: the ground. 893 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 3: Well, you know, the longest client I have as a 894 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 3: producer is Jimmy Webb. I've been producing Jimmy since nineteen 895 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,759 Speaker 3: seventy eight. He was a hero of mine, and I 896 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,879 Speaker 3: actually loved his soul albums and his solo voice, and 897 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 3: once we had some times when we touch. It gave 898 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,760 Speaker 3: me the ability to reach out through twentieth Century Fox Records. 899 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,080 Speaker 3: They reached out to Jimmy in seventy eight and we 900 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,600 Speaker 3: met my partner Matt McCauley, at that time was still 901 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,000 Speaker 3: working with me and Jimmy. Matt and I just fell 902 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,320 Speaker 3: in love with each other, and Matt and I produced 903 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,120 Speaker 3: an album called Angel Heart seventy eight, and then when 904 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 3: Matt walked away from producing, by nineteen eighty, I still 905 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,359 Speaker 3: was working with Jimmy and continued to this day, and 906 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,239 Speaker 3: I've been his musical director at times and his record 907 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,080 Speaker 3: producer over seven albums. 908 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:46,040 Speaker 2: Okay, you're a wet behind the years guy. This guy 909 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,160 Speaker 2: has gigantic kids. How do you convince him to work 910 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 2: with you? 911 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 3: Well, we had the big hit, we had some times 912 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 3: when we touch and we had Harvey Cooper at twentieth 913 00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 3: Century Fox Records telling Jimmy's manager that we were geniuses. 914 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 3: I don't believe we were. I think we were really 915 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 3: good and we were very precocious, Bob. I think that 916 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 3: that's how we I think we perceived ourselves as really good, surprisingly, 917 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,640 Speaker 3: really good as a team to produce, but also I 918 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,400 Speaker 3: think we were just really good for our age. So 919 00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 3: it was thrilling that Jimmy Webb looked at us, and 920 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,960 Speaker 3: don't forget, Jimmy's biggest hits happened when he was twenty 921 00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,080 Speaker 3: twenty one and twenty two. He looked at us like, 922 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:31,720 Speaker 3: you know, I get these guys. 923 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:38,520 Speaker 2: They're like I was, Okay, Jimmy has these iconic songs. Yes, 924 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 2: he has these solo albums that have not been as 925 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 2: commercially successful. Is that because his voice is not as good, 926 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 2: the times have changed, the songs are not as good. 927 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,920 Speaker 2: You've been working with him for almost fifty years. Give 928 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:55,560 Speaker 2: us your take. 929 00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:01,560 Speaker 3: Well, again, this is an interesting question. I think a 930 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:06,880 Speaker 3: number of things hurt Jimmy, which shouldn't have because I 931 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 3: think he is probably one of America's greatest songwriters, along 932 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:15,280 Speaker 3: with the top five greatest songwriters. I think his voice 933 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 3: was really good. It was raw and lovely. And I 934 00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 3: think that the problem was is that Jimmy was perceived 935 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,359 Speaker 3: by the public in those days, and I'm talking about 936 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,440 Speaker 3: the early seventies as the guy who wrote for the 937 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,839 Speaker 3: Fifth Dimension, the guy who wrote for Glenn Campbell, who 938 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,439 Speaker 3: was Republican, the guy who wrote for Richard Harris, who 939 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:38,319 Speaker 3: was a British theatrical guy, and it just seemed to 940 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,840 Speaker 3: be his perception by the public. The perception by the 941 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:48,040 Speaker 3: public was that he was a square and a Republican, 942 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,880 Speaker 3: and of course it couldn't have been further from the truth, 943 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:55,520 Speaker 3: but that perception hurt him. And then on top of it, 944 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,440 Speaker 3: then he would do his solo albums, which were really creative, 945 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,719 Speaker 3: soulful singer songwriter records. They weren't produced so well. I mean, 946 00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,560 Speaker 3: Jimmy produced the first couple himself, and they're raw. You know, 947 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,520 Speaker 3: I love them, but they're raw, and you know, I 948 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,719 Speaker 3: just think that he They people couldn't make the translation 949 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:20,000 Speaker 3: that Jimmy Webb, this wonder kind who did MacArthur Park, 950 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:26,680 Speaker 3: could be again a vital singing, singing songwriter, autobiographical songwriter, 951 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,360 Speaker 3: and they were wrong because he's one of the greatest. 952 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,600 Speaker 2: How he ended up working with Chris Christophers and what 953 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 2: is that experience. 954 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,400 Speaker 3: Like, well, that was one of the great experiences. You know. 955 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,120 Speaker 3: I had done ten easy pieces for Guardian Records, which 956 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,279 Speaker 3: was a part of EMI Records. And Jay Landers, who's 957 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,400 Speaker 3: been a great support to me all of my career, 958 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 3: literally as early as seventy eight. You know, Jay called me, 959 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,600 Speaker 3: you know, sorry, I called Jay let me go. Back 960 00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,080 Speaker 3: in ninety six, and I'm going to tell you a 961 00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 3: story which is true because everything I'm saying, you're getting 962 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:04,760 Speaker 3: the truth out of me. And I like that. Jimmy 963 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,480 Speaker 3: was having a very hard time in his life in 964 00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,680 Speaker 3: ninety six, going through the worst divorce I've ever seen. 965 00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:16,120 Speaker 3: He had six children, he had an irs attachment that 966 00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,560 Speaker 3: was millions of dollars, and he was extremely depressed and 967 00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:27,920 Speaker 3: there was absolutely alcohol, etc. That were causing problems because 968 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,080 Speaker 3: he was so depressed. And I loved him, he was 969 00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:36,239 Speaker 3: part of my family. And I convinced him to come 970 00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,359 Speaker 3: to Toronto, get out of ground zero, come to Toronto and 971 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,439 Speaker 3: we would make a quick little album of Jimmy doing 972 00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,920 Speaker 3: his most famous songs, but for the first time him 973 00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,319 Speaker 3: doing them, and to do them in a very sort 974 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:54,160 Speaker 3: of intimate, unplugged manner. And I had to really convince him, Bob. 975 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,279 Speaker 3: He was very, very adamant. He did not want to 976 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,839 Speaker 3: do it. Finally I convinced him because I told him 977 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,960 Speaker 3: that he should do it for his kids, just to 978 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,440 Speaker 3: have it on record, and we went to Toronto. He 979 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,760 Speaker 3: went to Toronto. I put him up in a hotel, 980 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 3: got him out of the fire, so to speak, and 981 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:12,840 Speaker 3: we made ten easy pieces, which is really one of 982 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 3: the greatest projects I'll ever be involved with, and that 983 00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,880 Speaker 3: because it was such a cool idea. I called Jay Landers, 984 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,880 Speaker 3: who was at Emi at Guardian, and Jay said, I 985 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,880 Speaker 3: love Jimmy. If you'll do it for twenty five thousand, 986 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 3: I'll give you the green light. And I said, I'll 987 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,840 Speaker 3: take it. And at that point I was doing my 988 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,080 Speaker 3: TV and film score years. I was making good money, 989 00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,840 Speaker 3: so God, if I needed to not get paid, it's fine, 990 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,560 Speaker 3: I do it anyway. So I brought Jimmy in. We 991 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:45,920 Speaker 3: made the record and it got incredible response review wise. 992 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,520 Speaker 3: It didn't sell initially, but then Jay was able to 993 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 3: then go, who do you want to do next? Let's 994 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,520 Speaker 3: take a look, and we sort of talked about different people. 995 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 3: Barry Man definitely, who I had also spent my adult 996 00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:04,160 Speaker 3: life I'm working with, and he said, what about Christofferson? 997 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,720 Speaker 3: And I said, oh, yeah, that's a cool idea. And 998 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,240 Speaker 3: I had known christ Dopperson's work. I didn't like his 999 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,880 Speaker 3: old records that were like the monument albums from the 1000 00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,280 Speaker 3: seventies because they put him with the same Nashville musicians 1001 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,560 Speaker 3: who were doing Conway Twitty the same day, and the 1002 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,320 Speaker 3: music sucked and Chris was crooning, and he's not a crooner. 1003 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,280 Speaker 3: And I also remember Bob. I'm sure you know this 1004 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,200 Speaker 3: is that Chris loved Bob Dylan so much that in 1005 00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,240 Speaker 3: the early days when he was in Nashville, he actually 1006 00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:38,320 Speaker 3: got a job as a janitor at CBS Studios just 1007 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,800 Speaker 3: to be close to Dylan, who was making Blonde on Blonde. 1008 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,720 Speaker 3: But that's how much he revered Dylan. He would literally 1009 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,520 Speaker 3: empty out ashtrays just to catch a little bit of 1010 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,480 Speaker 3: the music. So we presented this to his manager and 1011 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,680 Speaker 3: then to Chris, and I said, I'd like to make 1012 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,840 Speaker 3: a record that sounds a little bit like a Blonde 1013 00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:00,320 Speaker 3: on Blonde vibe of all of your great hits. So literally, 1014 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,280 Speaker 3: you know, bring four or five great players in just 1015 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,120 Speaker 3: you know, let it be sort of somewhat free in 1016 00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,360 Speaker 3: the arrangements, and you know, if you need to talk 1017 00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,840 Speaker 3: through the songs, you talk through the songs. But I 1018 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,919 Speaker 3: wanted him to be something he would want to aspire to, 1019 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,040 Speaker 3: and blonde on Blond were the three keywords for him. 1020 00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:25,200 Speaker 2: You make the record, you have an ongoing relationship with 1021 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:29,320 Speaker 2: Jimmy Webb. Was it one and done with Chris? Christoph 1022 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:31,160 Speaker 2: person or do you have contact with him after. 1023 00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,680 Speaker 3: I had some contact with Chris after. He has always 1024 00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:37,120 Speaker 3: told me, and I know he's passed on. He he 1025 00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 3: always told me that the Austin Sessions was his favorite record, 1026 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,240 Speaker 3: and I've seen it in Prince I know it is 1027 00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,840 Speaker 3: true that he said it to other people. And we 1028 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:48,920 Speaker 3: tried to stay in touch here and there. I actually 1029 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,120 Speaker 3: had him guessed on a couple projects that we were doing, 1030 00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:55,240 Speaker 3: and I loved him. I mean, the guy was just 1031 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,880 Speaker 3: one of the most amazing people. My memories of Chris 1032 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,920 Speaker 3: are so full of love and such and I have 1033 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,200 Speaker 3: such gratitude that I had the chance to work with him. 1034 01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:06,320 Speaker 3: But we never made another album again. 1035 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,760 Speaker 2: No, Okay, Berry Man with his wife Cynthia Well have 1036 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,040 Speaker 2: iconic kids in the league of Jimmy Webb. You work 1037 01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,080 Speaker 2: with Barry Man. What is the magic there? 1038 01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:22,120 Speaker 3: What is the magic of Barry's writing? 1039 01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:24,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? 1040 01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:29,919 Speaker 3: Well again, you know, tenaciousness, a drive. He's a sort 1041 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,680 Speaker 3: of a Brooklyn guy who you know, had to get 1042 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,840 Speaker 3: out of Brooklyn and like Carol King and Jerry Goff 1043 01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:40,080 Speaker 3: and Barry Man and Cynthia while were products of the 1044 01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:42,720 Speaker 3: even though they didn't work at the Brill Building, it 1045 01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,080 Speaker 3: was during the Brill Building years. They were actually at 1046 01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,960 Speaker 3: sixteen fifty Broadway, but you know they came out of 1047 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,040 Speaker 3: a place where they got a phone call sitting at 1048 01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,240 Speaker 3: the publishing office in New York, Connie Francis needs a 1049 01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,480 Speaker 3: follow up to such and such, and they all all 1050 01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,880 Speaker 3: these right would sit together and then they'd go into 1051 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,960 Speaker 3: their cubicles apart and try to write the follow up 1052 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:10,000 Speaker 3: for Connie Francis. Let's say that kind of training along 1053 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,560 Speaker 3: with a gift, which Barry had and Cynthia had, and 1054 01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,720 Speaker 3: Carol and Jerry had, and all these wonderful writers from 1055 01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:21,760 Speaker 3: you know, from those Brill Building days, what training that 1056 01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,720 Speaker 3: was if you had a gift, it was amazing. And 1057 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,240 Speaker 3: so that's the magic that Barry had. Its just it 1058 01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,080 Speaker 3: was a combination of just being in the right place 1059 01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,160 Speaker 3: at the right time for what he did, which was, 1060 01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,640 Speaker 3: you know, he could just sit the piano and just 1061 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:37,600 Speaker 3: come up with a great melody, and Cynthia could write 1062 01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,080 Speaker 3: a great lyric and it was just bang, bang bang. 1063 01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 3: In a sense, they were doing what I was doing 1064 01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,080 Speaker 3: in my TV and film years, in the sense it 1065 01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:49,000 Speaker 3: was an unrelenting you know, every day, you know, just 1066 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,680 Speaker 3: writing music, writing you know, and that's thrilling on some levels, 1067 01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,720 Speaker 3: but even more thrilling for them because they were seeing 1068 01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,120 Speaker 3: their records go to the top of the charts, and 1069 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,560 Speaker 3: they were also working with other people and it was 1070 01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,040 Speaker 3: you know, I imagine it was great fun. Although interestingly enough, 1071 01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:11,720 Speaker 3: and Barry is truly extended family to me, when I 1072 01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,280 Speaker 3: asked him one time, you know, if that was the 1073 01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:16,600 Speaker 3: happiest time of his life, he said, that's the worst time. 1074 01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,160 Speaker 3: And I said why. He said, because as good as 1075 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:22,960 Speaker 3: your hit was, you had to get the next one. 1076 01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:24,840 Speaker 3: And the pressure was terrible. 1077 01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,320 Speaker 2: Just staying with some of these iconic writers. Most of 1078 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,640 Speaker 2: these people have a very hot era and then they 1079 01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:37,280 Speaker 2: don't have the same level of success. Why do you 1080 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:38,080 Speaker 2: think that is? 1081 01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,560 Speaker 3: Well, you know, this is again it's a great question, 1082 01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:44,840 Speaker 3: and I write it. I write about it in my book. 1083 01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:52,120 Speaker 3: That especially the what I call the autobiographical singer songwriters, 1084 01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,600 Speaker 3: you know that we've mentioned before, the Paul Simon's, the 1085 01:02:54,680 --> 01:03:00,960 Speaker 3: James Taylor's, Neil Young, all these wonderful writers who Jackson Brown, etc. 1086 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,280 Speaker 3: You know, they give so much in the early part 1087 01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:11,800 Speaker 3: of their lives, and I think it's an understandable thing 1088 01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:17,480 Speaker 3: that they just probably get somewhat written out after ten 1089 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:22,440 Speaker 3: or fifteen albums of brilliance. It may just be that 1090 01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:27,120 Speaker 3: the well is dry comparatively. And you know, you had 1091 01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:30,800 Speaker 3: a great piece about the Elton John Brandy Carlisle album. 1092 01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,560 Speaker 3: To me, that's the great example, because Elton John is 1093 01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,000 Speaker 3: a god to me. But I don't think there's any 1094 01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:40,880 Speaker 3: gas in the tank anymore to be able to write 1095 01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,240 Speaker 3: the brilliant songs he wrote. And I think it's just 1096 01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:48,320 Speaker 3: it's an emotional situation, but it's also just the fact 1097 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,400 Speaker 3: that you you know that part of you may not 1098 01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:55,640 Speaker 3: be there anymore. So I know that it's different when 1099 01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:57,880 Speaker 3: you're looking at someone like a Burt Backerack or a 1100 01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,680 Speaker 3: Barry in Cynthia. You know they can still craft a song. 1101 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,440 Speaker 3: But I don't know. I don't know if a great songwriter, 1102 01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,640 Speaker 3: you know, who gave us so much can continue to 1103 01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,400 Speaker 3: give us that much every single time into their seventies 1104 01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,600 Speaker 3: and eighties. I don't think that's possible. 1105 01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,440 Speaker 2: Okay, needless to say, you're a ficial. 1106 01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,400 Speaker 3: Are people gonna hate me now? They're gonna hate me 1107 01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:20,000 Speaker 3: now for saying that. 1108 01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,320 Speaker 2: No, I don't. I have my own theories about it. 1109 01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,880 Speaker 2: I wanted to hear your theory my theory, and I 1110 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,600 Speaker 2: don't say yours is wrong, but these artists tend to 1111 01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:33,840 Speaker 2: be maladjusted, alienated people, and they believe that this success 1112 01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,360 Speaker 2: will make their lives work. And when they have their 1113 01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:39,960 Speaker 2: success and their lives still don't work, they can't do 1114 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,479 Speaker 2: it anymore. Yeah. 1115 01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:44,920 Speaker 3: I think that's a great element of it, you know. 1116 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,240 Speaker 3: And I think what's another great element is that And 1117 01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:50,800 Speaker 3: something you just hit on is that I think the 1118 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:56,760 Speaker 3: great singer songwriter is the autobiographical singer songwriters. They generally 1119 01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,720 Speaker 3: had some sort of real sadness or trauma which they 1120 01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,960 Speaker 3: work out through their writing of songs. And like you said, 1121 01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,560 Speaker 3: once that trauma's gone down the road, maybe it's not 1122 01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:11,040 Speaker 3: quite there anymore. But you know, I actually sat with 1123 01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:13,040 Speaker 3: Sting one day and I only sat with him once 1124 01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,000 Speaker 3: in my life, and we were sitting at a bar 1125 01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,920 Speaker 3: with Rita Wilson and a few other people, and he 1126 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,240 Speaker 3: and I sort of, you know, started talking about something, 1127 01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,160 Speaker 3: and I just, you know, I didn't know why I 1128 01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:26,320 Speaker 3: felt so bold, but I just said, you know, I 1129 01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:28,720 Speaker 3: have a feeling that, you know, we were talking about songwriting. 1130 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,560 Speaker 3: I said, I have a feeling that your background contains 1131 01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:36,840 Speaker 3: some trauma or real sadness that your songs help you 1132 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:41,400 Speaker 3: work through. And he said, you're right, And I said, well, 1133 01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,640 Speaker 3: you know, I think it's very common that, you know, 1134 01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,280 Speaker 3: James Taylor had a rough teenage years. You know, we 1135 01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:50,280 Speaker 3: know all this. Joni Mitchell had polio, I mean, you 1136 01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,760 Speaker 3: name it, they had it. Neil Young had epilepsy and 1137 01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:58,360 Speaker 3: other stuff. And all I'm saying is and Jimmy Webb 1138 01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:04,200 Speaker 3: his the wind beneath his wings was his mom and 1139 01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,920 Speaker 3: she died when he was fourteen. And so all of 1140 01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:12,640 Speaker 3: these things make the Jimmy Web songs brilliant, and sometimes 1141 01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:16,600 Speaker 3: they make these other people's songs brilliant. That's why James 1142 01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:20,160 Speaker 3: Taylor can write a fire and rain that still is amazing. 1143 01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:32,600 Speaker 2: Today, let's witch back to you. Yeah, you're a film composer. 1144 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:37,120 Speaker 2: You go to Nashville, you're making records. The business changed 1145 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:42,320 Speaker 2: along the way. Okay, needless to say, there's Napster, there's 1146 01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:46,720 Speaker 2: the iTunes store. Now they're streaming an on demand thing. 1147 01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,520 Speaker 2: In the old days, the record companies would pay more 1148 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:57,520 Speaker 2: to record, the records fee for producer. You make a record, 1149 01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:01,960 Speaker 2: the odds of consumption being so large that there's a 1150 01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,640 Speaker 2: big win or low. So what is your perspective and 1151 01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,160 Speaker 2: how does it work out financially. 1152 01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:14,840 Speaker 3: Well? When I make records, and certainly ever since Napster 1153 01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:18,280 Speaker 3: and then of course streaming, well, first of all Napster, 1154 01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:24,680 Speaker 3: then downloading, and then streaming, we saw that the album 1155 01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:27,200 Speaker 3: as a way to make money in royalties was going 1156 01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:31,920 Speaker 3: to be really jeopardized. I'm not in it for the money, 1157 01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:35,400 Speaker 3: so it does not cause me a lot of duress 1158 01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,480 Speaker 3: that a record I'll make ninety five percent of the 1159 01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:44,000 Speaker 3: time now will not sell. But if it makes people 1160 01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:47,560 Speaker 3: happy or if it gets a certain amount of streams, 1161 01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,120 Speaker 3: I guess I'm okay. I just have to live with 1162 01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:52,480 Speaker 3: what it is. You know, you can't really fight technology, 1163 01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,400 Speaker 3: and I can't be a naysayer about it. I wish 1164 01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,160 Speaker 3: things would have gone back to the way they were 1165 01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:02,960 Speaker 3: when music wasn't free, but it's just the way it is. 1166 01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:06,600 Speaker 3: And so you know, Bob, it's my love of music 1167 01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,040 Speaker 3: that makes me do what I do. It's not about 1168 01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,120 Speaker 3: making money. If I wanted to make money, I would 1169 01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:11,959 Speaker 3: have done something else. 1170 01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:15,080 Speaker 2: Okay, so you make these records, how much does it 1171 01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,800 Speaker 2: cost to make them? 1172 01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:21,120 Speaker 3: You know, every record is different. Sometimes we have a 1173 01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,000 Speaker 3: great budget. I meaning a great budget could be, in 1174 01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:27,640 Speaker 3: my opinion, one hundred and fifty thousand. Sometimes you have 1175 01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:30,439 Speaker 3: a budget of thirty five or forty thousand, you know. 1176 01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,800 Speaker 3: I mean, you make them work, You make your deals 1177 01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,880 Speaker 3: with the studios. You you know, everyone wants to work. 1178 01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:38,840 Speaker 3: That's what happens now. You know, in the old days 1179 01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,040 Speaker 3: of Nashville there were triple scale players. That's never going 1180 01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,720 Speaker 3: to happen again. Everyone gets a single scale. You know. 1181 01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:47,679 Speaker 3: That's just the way it is. And you know what, 1182 01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,920 Speaker 3: I used to get great production fees. Every production fee 1183 01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:55,519 Speaker 3: now is different. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's you know, 1184 01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,280 Speaker 3: I want to make this record, so I'll do it 1185 01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:00,680 Speaker 3: for that. It's not what powers me. What powers me 1186 01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:01,360 Speaker 3: as the music. 1187 01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:05,599 Speaker 2: And in most cases is it a label paying or 1188 01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:10,280 Speaker 2: is there a vanity project or a deep pocket. 1189 01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:12,120 Speaker 3: It's all the above. 1190 01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:12,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1191 01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:14,439 Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at my schedule over the 1192 01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 3: past year, you know, I did a wonderful album with 1193 01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,120 Speaker 3: Bill Medley of the Righteous Brothers just came out in 1194 01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:25,840 Speaker 3: February of Bill doing iconic old country songs done in 1195 01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:29,920 Speaker 3: a very sort of intimate and Americana style, and I'm 1196 01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:35,160 Speaker 3: so proud of it. That record was commissioned eventually by 1197 01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,320 Speaker 3: Curb Records. I had the idea for it, and we 1198 01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,960 Speaker 3: were trying to shop it, and then my Curb got 1199 01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,479 Speaker 3: involved and said I want this record, So that was 1200 01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:46,000 Speaker 3: a Curb record with Curb paying the bill. But then 1201 01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:48,599 Speaker 3: the next album I did might have been a project 1202 01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:52,799 Speaker 3: for Brooke Morriber, who's a great New York artist, completely 1203 01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,599 Speaker 3: self financed. So it really runs the gamut. 1204 01:09:56,479 --> 01:10:01,120 Speaker 2: And are most of these records you do idea, you pitch, 1205 01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:04,759 Speaker 2: where someone comes to you again. 1206 01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:09,240 Speaker 3: It just there's no rhyme or reason. Certainly I have 1207 01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:13,120 Speaker 3: ideas and I'll pitch those, and I'll have certain artists 1208 01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:16,120 Speaker 3: that I might know. I might suggest a concept to 1209 01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:19,679 Speaker 3: them or again, or an artist just happens to email 1210 01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:22,080 Speaker 3: me or call me, or a record label emails me 1211 01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:25,320 Speaker 3: or calls me. It just where you take it, wherever 1212 01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:26,080 Speaker 3: it comes from. 1213 01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:31,439 Speaker 2: Okay, you are in living in music city. You are 1214 01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:36,280 Speaker 2: not the only producer there. What's your special sauce that 1215 01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:38,880 Speaker 2: someone should work with you as opposed to anybody else. 1216 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:43,080 Speaker 3: Well, of course you know I'm the best. That's the 1217 01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:46,519 Speaker 3: first reason. No, that is so not true, because there 1218 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:48,840 Speaker 3: is no best. I think I'm really good at what 1219 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,120 Speaker 3: I do. But I think I'm particularly good at making records. 1220 01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:56,880 Speaker 3: But I'm an artist producer. I try to fulfill the 1221 01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:01,519 Speaker 3: artist's vision. That's my job. Ego is not involved in 1222 01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,240 Speaker 3: making a record, but I want to make the record 1223 01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:07,040 Speaker 3: that the artist wants to make. And sometimes the artist 1224 01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:09,360 Speaker 3: knows exactly what to do, and sometimes they need my 1225 01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:12,920 Speaker 3: help on every level. But we do it together until 1226 01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:16,400 Speaker 3: I fulfill their vision. And that's what makes me a 1227 01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:19,280 Speaker 3: producer people want to work with in all different genres. 1228 01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:22,320 Speaker 2: You know, there's been an evolution in producers. Without going 1229 01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:26,200 Speaker 2: through sixty years worth of history for a while, they're 1230 01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:30,800 Speaker 2: engineers to this day became producers and that is not 1231 01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:34,720 Speaker 2: that that's an important skill, but not the same skill. 1232 01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:38,640 Speaker 2: So are you someone who's gonna say, give me the demos, 1233 01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:42,640 Speaker 2: maybe move the chorus to the front, maybe need a 1234 01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:44,679 Speaker 2: bridge here, or you that kind of producer? 1235 01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,920 Speaker 3: And that's exactly the kind of producer I am. But 1236 01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,280 Speaker 3: it's not me telling them what to do. It's me saying, 1237 01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:54,559 Speaker 3: what do you think about this? I like this idea? 1238 01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,120 Speaker 3: What do you think If they say it's great, we 1239 01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:01,240 Speaker 3: do it. The artist has the final decision every time, 1240 01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:03,800 Speaker 3: and so if they say, oh I love that, Fred, 1241 01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:06,679 Speaker 3: then we make that change on the bridge. But yes, 1242 01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:09,519 Speaker 3: I'm a musician and I'm I'm an arranger, and so 1243 01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:14,479 Speaker 3: my engineering skills are zero. So I have wonderful engineers 1244 01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:16,880 Speaker 3: that I work with, and they really allow me to 1245 01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:20,120 Speaker 3: be even a better producer and a better person with 1246 01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:20,679 Speaker 3: the artist. 1247 01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:24,240 Speaker 2: Okay, I call you, Fred, I want you to produce 1248 01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,280 Speaker 2: my record. I want you to produce my record, but 1249 01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:28,720 Speaker 2: your book for a year solid? Who do you tell 1250 01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:29,599 Speaker 2: me to go work with? 1251 01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,880 Speaker 3: Hmm? It would depend on the genre, you know. But 1252 01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:38,240 Speaker 3: that's a good question. I have people I love, who 1253 01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:40,759 Speaker 3: are you know, the right the right call for the job. 1254 01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:44,719 Speaker 3: One of my great pals is Kyle Lenning out of Nashville. 1255 01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:48,920 Speaker 3: You know, Kyle can do country really well. He can 1256 01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:50,760 Speaker 3: do pop really well, you know, in the sense of 1257 01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:54,559 Speaker 3: singer songwriter stuff. I like Kyle. You know, if I 1258 01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:56,679 Speaker 3: was too busy to do something, I would give Kyle 1259 01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,760 Speaker 3: a call. He'd be someone. There's other people as well. 1260 01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:04,880 Speaker 3: No one comes to mind immediately, and luckily I haven't 1261 01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,960 Speaker 3: had I mean, I guess or unluckily I haven't been 1262 01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:09,519 Speaker 3: booked a year in advance in a while. 1263 01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:15,640 Speaker 2: Okay, if you just said I'm going to rely on incoming. 1264 01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:18,960 Speaker 2: Are enough people looking for you to keep you busy? 1265 01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:21,160 Speaker 2: Or do you have to hustle to a degree. 1266 01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:26,120 Speaker 3: What I'd like to say is is that I wouldn't 1267 01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,400 Speaker 3: use the word hustle, but I would use the word 1268 01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:33,200 Speaker 3: I'm still driven. So I'll create concepts and make those calls. 1269 01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:36,360 Speaker 3: And sometimes I don't like to just wait around for 1270 01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:37,760 Speaker 3: the next thing I want, you know, I'd like to 1271 01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:41,040 Speaker 3: be purposeful. I mean my home listen, I look at you, 1272 01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:43,719 Speaker 3: and I look at everything you're doing on how many 1273 01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:45,639 Speaker 3: hours in the day, and how many of those hours 1274 01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:49,360 Speaker 3: are you working. I like to be purposeful too, you know, 1275 01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,160 Speaker 3: And so I try to make things happen if things 1276 01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:52,920 Speaker 3: aren't happening. 1277 01:13:54,280 --> 01:14:02,519 Speaker 2: Okay, So in terms of music today, you're in music City. 1278 01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,040 Speaker 2: A lot of you know, countries cut there. It can 1279 01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:08,800 Speaker 2: be cut a few other places, but it's not only country. 1280 01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:13,360 Speaker 2: What's your view of the music scene today. Let me 1281 01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:15,040 Speaker 2: set it up a little bit. We're of the same 1282 01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:19,400 Speaker 2: Vintage music really drove the culture in the sixties and said, 1283 01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:20,720 Speaker 2: if you want to know what was going on, you 1284 01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:22,880 Speaker 2: turned on the radio, you got the music, you got 1285 01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:27,400 Speaker 2: the news. Okay, we had in the early nineties hip hop. 1286 01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:29,880 Speaker 2: You know, fuck the police that we found out what 1287 01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:33,040 Speaker 2: these rappers were saying was true. Now we have a 1288 01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:37,560 Speaker 2: mortgage board of sounds. Where's the excitement and where is 1289 01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:38,559 Speaker 2: the business going? 1290 01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:44,639 Speaker 3: Well, I had a feeling you'd ask me that kind 1291 01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,880 Speaker 3: of question, and I don't really have an answer. I 1292 01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:53,240 Speaker 3: think that where we're going for me is not a 1293 01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:59,160 Speaker 3: direction that I particularly enjoy, because I like, again the 1294 01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:03,640 Speaker 3: quality of someone's personality and gift to come off on 1295 01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:06,960 Speaker 3: record or live. And when I see a lot of 1296 01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:10,120 Speaker 3: records that do really well now, especially in the pop realm, 1297 01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:13,920 Speaker 3: are generally you know, the seven songwriters on one record, 1298 01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:17,000 Speaker 3: there's four programmers and two this and that, you know, 1299 01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:20,280 Speaker 3: and it's much more about you know. It doesn't feel 1300 01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:24,280 Speaker 3: melodic to me. So I can't tell you where it's going. 1301 01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:27,679 Speaker 3: But I know one thing, and that AI can't possibly 1302 01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:30,840 Speaker 3: be helpful to give us the kind of soul of 1303 01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:35,439 Speaker 3: a Ray Charles or a James Taylor or Paul Simon. 1304 01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:40,320 Speaker 2: I would agree with that you're in Nashville. To what 1305 01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:44,599 Speaker 2: degree is there cross pollination in a community in music? 1306 01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:49,200 Speaker 3: I don't feel there is. I feel that the country 1307 01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:54,880 Speaker 3: world really is quite there's a fence around it. I've 1308 01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:57,519 Speaker 3: never been able to cross into that fence. But that's 1309 01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:01,160 Speaker 3: okay because I don't really love a lot of pop country, 1310 01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,200 Speaker 3: so I don't really feel like I should be a 1311 01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:07,080 Speaker 3: part of it, although I could have done it, especially 1312 01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:10,880 Speaker 3: ten or fifteen years ago, but I think the cross pollination. 1313 01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,360 Speaker 3: I don't feel as there within the country world, and 1314 01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:19,599 Speaker 3: that's pretty well their own world, and it's a boys 1315 01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:23,400 Speaker 3: club to a great degree. But I also feel that 1316 01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:28,280 Speaker 3: there's so much music being done in Nashville that's not country, 1317 01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:33,559 Speaker 3: that's everything else that that area is quite fluid and 1318 01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:34,280 Speaker 3: quite lovely. 1319 01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:38,120 Speaker 2: So let's say I came to you, I'm a developing artist. 1320 01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:41,360 Speaker 2: You know, are you so network? That's got a bad connotation, 1321 01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:45,400 Speaker 2: But is the community such they say, oh, this is 1322 01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:48,160 Speaker 2: a guy you should co write with, or this guy's 1323 01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:51,280 Speaker 2: got a band. Do you tend to know everybody in 1324 01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:52,479 Speaker 2: your world? 1325 01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:56,160 Speaker 3: In my world, yes, I don't know the worlds that 1326 01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,920 Speaker 3: are the more processed, you know, pop stuff that's out there. 1327 01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:04,759 Speaker 2: And to what degree are you actively following the scene, 1328 01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:08,160 Speaker 2: whether it be the music itself, where the business, or 1329 01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:11,479 Speaker 2: you and your own little niche and your sort of focused. 1330 01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:15,479 Speaker 3: I'd like to believe I have one foot looking around 1331 01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:19,120 Speaker 3: and listening to everything, and clearly my other foot is 1332 01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:25,760 Speaker 3: just very much about the music that propelled me, that 1333 01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,519 Speaker 3: came before me and during my years. 1334 01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:32,000 Speaker 2: And what do you have coming down the pike for you? 1335 01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:37,479 Speaker 3: Well, right now, I've got an interesting project, which is 1336 01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:41,960 Speaker 3: the Gena Cecilia album on Blue elon small label that 1337 01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:44,640 Speaker 3: does a lot of cool things. And Gina is a 1338 01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,840 Speaker 3: wonderful blues singer that I met and we had some 1339 01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:52,080 Speaker 3: mutual friends and we did a gig together. I occasionally 1340 01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:56,479 Speaker 3: do a Fred Mallin and Friends night at a Nashville club, 1341 01:17:56,920 --> 01:18:04,040 Speaker 3: which completely saves me and replenishes my performer part. And 1342 01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:05,840 Speaker 3: she sang a couple songs and we did a couple 1343 01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:09,439 Speaker 3: of Sam Cook songs, and I said, We've got to 1344 01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:11,640 Speaker 3: make a record together of Sam cook songs, you know, 1345 01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:14,840 Speaker 3: one of my greatest inspirations. And no one has really 1346 01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:17,479 Speaker 3: done a good covers album of Sam and we just 1347 01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:20,040 Speaker 3: did one. It's coming out next month. The singles out already, 1348 01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:23,920 Speaker 3: but it's just a beautiful record of of of really 1349 01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:26,240 Speaker 3: cool covers of the great Sam Cook stuff. 1350 01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:29,280 Speaker 2: Anything else you can talk about. 1351 01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:32,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, I mean I'm there's another Jimmy Webb album. 1352 01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:34,960 Speaker 3: We're signing a deal next week to finally do the 1353 01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:39,719 Speaker 3: first album of Jimmy of new material of Jimmy's since 1354 01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:42,880 Speaker 3: two thousand and four, So there's a lot of songs 1355 01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,960 Speaker 3: to choose from, and Jimmy and I are both absolutely 1356 01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:47,360 Speaker 3: thrilled to be back in the studio. 1357 01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:51,960 Speaker 2: So tell me a couple of artists in a dream 1358 01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:53,679 Speaker 2: that you would like to produce. 1359 01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:57,960 Speaker 3: Well, I'd always want to produce James Taylor. I mean, 1360 01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,599 Speaker 3: you know, I still think there's there's gas in that tank. 1361 01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:05,080 Speaker 3: That's amazing. I would always I always wanted to produce 1362 01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:08,360 Speaker 3: Elton John. I'd love to pitch Elton John on One 1363 01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:10,920 Speaker 3: More Album, which is an album of his favorite songs, 1364 01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,000 Speaker 3: covers of his favorite songs. I think that will be 1365 01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:16,960 Speaker 3: the record to do. And I also would love to 1366 01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:19,719 Speaker 3: do Mark Knopfler in the same way I did Jimmy 1367 01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,880 Speaker 3: Webb and Barry Man and Christopherson. And I've talked to 1368 01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:25,840 Speaker 3: Mark about it and he's into it, but he wants 1369 01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:27,120 Speaker 3: to wait a little bit. 1370 01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:31,519 Speaker 2: Let's just assume you were producing James Taylor. 1371 01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:35,200 Speaker 3: And by the way, I have to interrupt, I've got 1372 01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:38,960 Speaker 3: to say it now here it is. I wrote a 1373 01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,559 Speaker 3: letter to Bob Dylan. I'm sorry, I just hold that thought. No, God, 1374 01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:43,120 Speaker 3: I have to tell now. I have to tell you 1375 01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:46,200 Speaker 3: that a year and a half ago, the Bob Dylan 1376 01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:51,519 Speaker 3: book came out, Philosophy of Modern Song, and in the 1377 01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:54,720 Speaker 3: chapter about by the time I get to Phoenix, he 1378 01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:57,840 Speaker 3: picked the version that I did with Jimmy on ten 1379 01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:01,840 Speaker 3: Easy Pieces, and I was app gobsmacked that Dylan would 1380 01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:05,240 Speaker 3: know that. And I wrote to Jeff Rosen, Dylan's manager, 1381 01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:07,160 Speaker 3: and I said, oh my god, you know, I'm so 1382 01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:09,840 Speaker 3: touched and Jimmy and I are so touched, and can 1383 01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:12,479 Speaker 3: you please thank Bob. And in the letter I said him, 1384 01:20:12,479 --> 01:20:14,080 Speaker 3: by the way, and I was joking. I said, you know, 1385 01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:17,160 Speaker 3: when Bob needs a new record done, you know you 1386 01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:19,040 Speaker 3: want me to produce it, I'll be open twenty four 1387 01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:22,559 Speaker 3: to seven. He wrote back right away saying, Bob knows you. 1388 01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:25,040 Speaker 3: He wants to know where you'd want to do it 1389 01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:28,960 Speaker 3: and when. And I literally had to take my car 1390 01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:33,040 Speaker 3: off the highway because I was hyperventilating because I saw 1391 01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:36,559 Speaker 3: it on my on my email on my phone. And 1392 01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:39,760 Speaker 3: then the next question was from Jeff Rosen do you 1393 01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:44,160 Speaker 3: hear covers or do you hear Bob's original material? And 1394 01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:46,559 Speaker 3: I talked about doing it in Nashville with the New 1395 01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:48,840 Speaker 3: A team, so he'd come back to the to the 1396 01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,559 Speaker 3: Blonde on Blonde, you know, to where he started with 1397 01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:55,280 Speaker 3: Blonde on Blonde, and they loved the idea. And sadly, 1398 01:20:55,479 --> 01:20:58,519 Speaker 3: Bob's been on the road now for probably ten out 1399 01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:02,320 Speaker 3: of twelve months, and so nothing has come to pass 1400 01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:04,519 Speaker 3: on that. But you know, that was one of the 1401 01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,320 Speaker 3: great moments. And I have the letter. I printed out 1402 01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:09,320 Speaker 3: the letter on the email and hung it in my 1403 01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:12,280 Speaker 3: studio that Bob will work with you wherever you want, 1404 01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:16,479 Speaker 3: whenever you want, because yes, I would do anything to 1405 01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:17,760 Speaker 3: produce Bob as well. 1406 01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:21,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to move on because there's no response 1407 01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:25,599 Speaker 2: to that. Yeah. So, assuming you work with James Taylor 1408 01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:28,280 Speaker 2: had a long career, what would you bring to the 1409 01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,000 Speaker 2: picture that another person would not. 1410 01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:35,160 Speaker 3: Well, you know, as much of a fan as I am, 1411 01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:39,240 Speaker 3: I'm also understanding of what brings out the best in him, 1412 01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:41,840 Speaker 3: and I would be the one to sort of say, Okay, 1413 01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:46,120 Speaker 3: you know, let's let's make this. You know, you're Joni 1414 01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:49,439 Speaker 3: Mitchell Blue, you know, let's make it something that's so 1415 01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:53,960 Speaker 3: profound and so musical and so emotional, and I just 1416 01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:56,000 Speaker 3: think I could take the emotional angle as well as 1417 01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:59,240 Speaker 3: the musical angle, and and and give him a lot 1418 01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:01,080 Speaker 3: of joe and a lot of protection. 1419 01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:05,000 Speaker 2: Well, Fred, I want to thank you for taking the 1420 01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:08,320 Speaker 2: time to speak with my audience. If you want much 1421 01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:11,280 Speaker 2: more depth on the stories that have been told in 1422 01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:15,120 Speaker 2: news stories, you can read his new book, Unplugged. It 1423 01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:16,640 Speaker 2: was great talking to you. 1424 01:22:17,240 --> 01:22:18,599 Speaker 3: Thank you, Buddy, I appreciate it. 1425 01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:22,080 Speaker 2: Until next time, This is Bob Left says