WEBVTT - 30 year Corrections Veteran Andy Potter on creating effective prison reform 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:04.400 Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam, the podcast where 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:06.640 I speak with people who see the wrong in the 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.880 world and are driven to make it right. Today, I'm 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.200 speaking with a thirty year veteran corrections officer who rose 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.720 through the ranks of his union to bring his own 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.840 perspective to the conversation around our criminal legal system. I 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.920 believe that that's what leaders should do, tell the truth 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.800 about a system that I believe wasn't designed for success, 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.960 was built around a racist ideology that exploits anyone that 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.560 comes into contact with it, and when they work there, 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:40.040 they perpetuated, but they also collectively have the strength to 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:44.800 change it. He launched the national campaign One Voice United 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.920 in two thousand sixteen with the aim to bring about 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.800 long lasting reform that will actually work. Andy Potter right 0:00:52.800 --> 0:01:11.520 now on Righteous Convictions. Welcome back to Righteous Convictions with 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:15.120 Jason Flom today's episode. You're gonna be a little surprised, 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.199 I think by by first of all, because our guest 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:20.840 is somebody that you might say, Flom, really you can 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.839 interview that guy. But when you find out why, it's 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.480 all gonna make a lot of sense. And without further ado, 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:33.720 I'm going to introduce Andy Potter. Andy is a thirty 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.960 year veteran of the Michigan Department of Corrections, but moreover, 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:43.000 he is the founder of an organization called One Voice United. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.119 So Andy, well, first of all, thanks for being here. Thanks, 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.920 I appreciate it. And Andy, you know, there aren't enough 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.920 people like you in my opinion, right, somehow or other, 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.600 our system has gone from one well it's called the 0:01:56.600 --> 0:02:00.920 corrections system, right, but it's gone to a punishment system. 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.200 It seems to me sort of holistically across this country. 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.880 And I'm hoping that the pendulum is going to swing 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.480 back in the other direction, and people like you are 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:12.720 leading the charge. So I want to thank you for that. 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:14.560 But you know, how did this start? I mean, you've 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.520 been in this work since the since the eighties, right 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.680 late eighties. I don't want to date you, but what 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.040 led you to this type of work? You know, like 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.160 a lot of other corrections officers would say that our 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.880 story is this corrections allowed a lot of us and 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.600 still does allow a lot of folks to come into 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.040 the middle class. And when you live in rural Michigan 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:40.560 where I grew up, I grew up in a very 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.919 broken town and we didn't have a lot of options. 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.079 My friends and I, you know, we had broken families, 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.720 most of us, and a lot of the friends and 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:51.760 neighbors that I had a lot of them went to 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:56.320 prison or worse. And so for me and my friends, 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:01.680 we just higher education wasn't an option for us. The 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.320 options that we had in front of us were the military. 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.040 You could go to work in a factory um like 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:12.000 Oldsmobile that no longer exists, or you could go to corrections. 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:14.680 It was in the eighties there was a boom going 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.600 on tough on crime. They were building a lot of 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:22.240 correctional institutions inside of these rural areas where there may 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:26.680 have been another viable industry that left, like logging or 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:30.160 mining or something, and this is what was there. So 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:32.760 it was an option for us, and that's the option 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.560 that I took. So you're a thirty year veteran of 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.600 the Michigan Department of Corrections, and around two thousand four 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.960 you were elected to the m c O State Executive Board. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.080 But you had been active in the union before that, 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.280 So tell me a little about the m c O. 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.600 So I actually had about twenty eight years in the 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:54.880 Michigan Department of Corrections. I'm retired and I've been the 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:59.400 executive director for Michigan Corrections Organization, which is a union 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.520 that represents just the corrections officers in the state of Michigan. 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:05.720 The way I always frame it is that I've worked 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.640 in and around the Michigan Department of Corrections for over 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.320 thirty years, and I'm the founder of One Voice United, 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.440 which is a national campaign. I'd say it's unusual and 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:21.599 refreshing to see somebody like yourself take it on the 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:23.800 topic that is most near and dear to my heart, 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:28.480 which is criminal justice reform. Tell us about One Voice United. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:33.240 One Voice United is a nonprofit that I founded in 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:37.760 two thousand and sixteen. And in two thousand and sixteen 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.680 in Michigan, we had a riot in the Upper Peninsula. 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:45.119 There had been some uprises all around in the United States. 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.919 I had been tracking them because I track and I 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.400 do a lot of forecasting where I can and when 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:55.520 I can inside of our profession, and so I was 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:59.640 a little bit expecting something because across the country they 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.280 had and making changes policy changes inside of the corrections institutions, 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.400 and in Michigan they had lowered the wages for those 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.560 incarcerated who were working throughout the institution. They lowered their wages, 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.320 they raised the prices in the store, and they had 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.880 a private food vendor. This private food vendor we in 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.040 Michigan really rallied against. We had a lot of officers 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.440 that took a lot of chances, took pictures of food 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.520 that had maggots in it and stuff like that, and 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.919 sent them in so that we could take that to 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.520 the legislature and argue to get rid of the private 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.679 food vendor. There wasn't enough oversight. There was a lot 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.160 of things happening inside the institutions that were dangerous, and 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.799 nobody liked it. Those incarcerated didn't like it, the staff 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.279 didn't like it. A lot of staff felt it was 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.560 just immoral what they were feeding folks. And so the 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.680 riot broke out, and it was over a series of 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.360 these issues. You know. I interviewed a lot of those 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.680 officers afterwards. Not one of them was physically harmed, and 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.960 a lot of comments were made throughout the night and 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.600 day that you're not going to be hurt because, look, 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.000 you took on some of our plight here, and a 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:17.279 lot of officers said they couldn't blame anybody like you 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.960 get to a certain point and there's a boiling point 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.760 and you know. So they told me, basically, this is 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.520 an issue. It's a moral issue, and we stand on 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.200 this moral issue, and we should be taking this as 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:30.919 far and wide as we can to make sure this 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.000 doesn't happen in other places. So, just looking at that issue, 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.880 I'm saying to myself, how is it and why is 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.880 it that we're in a system where something really affects 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.520 everybody that's working there, And how is it that we 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.440 can't bring ourselves to a place to work together to 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.359 get that figured out and stopped when we know that's 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.839 an issue. So that led me down the road to 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.800 come together with some of the smartest people that I 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.880 had know, people that I've done research with and different 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.839 kinds of projects with, along with corrections officers and others, 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:10.360 and we created One Voice United, which is really designed 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.840 to unearth those places of alignment. Even though you may 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:20.640 not see someone as the most ideal partner or an 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:25.080 unlikely partner in an issue. I'm trying to bridge that 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.440 gap so that folks can come together, unearthed those places 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.640 of alignment, and really go at that together with one 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.120 voice instead of different sides because that's the way this 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:40.440 system is designed. It's designed us versus them, and I'm 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.160 trying to take a little bit of that out of 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:46.560 this in order to save lives, create something that's different 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:51.440 than what we have. People deserve basic humanity, right. The 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.200 food is like the most basic of human needs. And 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.600 if you're serving people food that's rotten, that's infected with 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.240 maggots as you describe, as well as the other deprivations 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.000 that they're dealing with, of course it's going to get 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:04.960 to a point where it boils over. And it's a 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.520 miracle that nobody on the staff was hurt. I think 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:09.960 it speaks a lot to the character of the incarcerated 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.920 people there. But you know, in lesson, until we start 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:20.560 treating our incarcerated population with some semblance of decency, I 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.760 think we can expect that these situations will get worse. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:25.600 You know, people talk about the private prisons. Only six 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.520 per cent of prisons the United States are private. But 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.640 the services, as you described, Andy, the services, the people 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.760 that are making money on these things, they're incentivized to 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.360 do everything and cut as many quarters as they can, 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.320 as cheaply as they can, and the people on the 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.440 short end of that stick are always going to be 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.280 the incarcerated population. In all of my years inside of 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.440 the system, what it's done for me is allowed me 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.280 to scrape my eyes clear and see that system for 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:56.120 what it really is. And I wouldn't be any kind 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.600 of a leader at all if I couldn't try to 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:02.080 make an impact, try and make a difference for everybody 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.000 that comes into contact with it. Folks who worked there 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.480 and folks who lived there. I mean, they're inextrictably late 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:13.680 in order for the reform where it works, when it works, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.600 how it works. To really have a legacy, we've got 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.920 to bring those who live there, those who worked there. 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.359 They're the two largest stakeholders in this. All those stakeholders 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.760 should be in that conversation about why it should be different. 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.920 Righteous Convictions with Jason flam is super excited and honored 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.640 to have the support of a great organization like Galaxy Gives. 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.320 Galaxy Gives leads the filanthropic efforts of the Novograds family. 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.120 They invest in organizations, campaigns, and leaders who are directly 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:56.120 impacted by and working to dismantle the current punitive justice system. 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.439 Galaxy Gives also builds power for the community's most harmed 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:03.400 by mass and parceration and forges transformative solutions for responding 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.280 to that harm. They envision a society where the structural 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.520 barriers created by racist and poverty and inequality are no more. Instead, 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.880 all people have the dignity, freedom and rights needed to thrive. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.240 Reformers have all done a great job highlighting issues and 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.560 bringing the problems to the surface, and I think the 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:33.000 impact that One Voice United is made is that I 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.360 do think a lot of reformers now see that there 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.600 has to be room. There has to be some space 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.880 made for the understanding of how this isn't extrictably linked 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.080 between those who worked there and those who are incarcerated. 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.840 So just getting the recognition that those that are doing 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.280 the work every day know that system better than anyone, 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.480 and they should be consulted to how do we make 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:01.199 it better. The idea that you are take in best 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:05.920 practices and ideas from people who I'm guessing around the 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.839 country have no voice. Right they go to work, they 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.400 go home, they probably experienced things that don't have to experience. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.400 And I don't think it's a job that most people 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:20.800 would want if they couldn't have some ability to affect change. Yeah, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.280 you know in Michigan, most of the corrections officers that 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.200 go through the academy, I get a chance to talk 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.000 to them, and most that I ask, I always ask, 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.400 why are you taking this job? And most of them, 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.320 Jason tell me that they of course want to have 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.959 a good job, a reliable job, but they also want 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.800 to make a difference. They believe that there's a way 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.120 for them to impact somebody in a positive way. Now 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.880 I can tell you not just in Michigan. The system. 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.880 The light goes out of their eyes from the time 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.400 they're in the academy to the time they walk through 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.920 the front gates to do their work because you're trained 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:06.439 they in a day out to desensitize yourself and that 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.880 takes a toll. That's the system that we have, and 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.400 that's why I'm trying so hard to change this system 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.600 because it's killing people on both sides of us. I've 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.960 had thirty years of experience. I've seen pain on both 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.400 sides of this, and we haven't done a good enough 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.680 job as leaders to bring our unions to the table 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.400 to have these conversations about how do we make it better, 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.320 not just for folks incarcerated, because they do need schooling. 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.680 They do need education, so do those corrections officers in 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.400 order to be a legacy for that change that we're 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.880 all looking for. It's so strange right now, Andy, Right, 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:49.640 I'm in New York where we've had sixteen people be 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.280 murdered or died under to be as circumstances. Nobody died 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.840 of old age. I'm talking about inside Rikers Island, right, 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.760 which is sort of five miles from where I'm sitting 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:04.679 right now. Sixteen people and the photographs that have come 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.400 out of that institution are horrendous, like just you would 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.760 think this would be in a fourth World country. And 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.560 at the same time, just across the ocean, in places 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:18.360 in Western Europe, you have facilities where they treat the 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.560 incarcerated people as their neighbors. I mean, they have cells 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.320 that look more like college dorm rooms. Some places they 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.439 have cells that locked from the inside so they can 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.760 have privacy, right, they have their own phones in there 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.959 and things like that, and all of it is designed 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.960 to create sort of a ramp to success on the 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.760 outside where it feels like here we build walls to 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:43.720 not only in terms of the way we treat our 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.679 incarcerated population, but also in terms of how we stigmatize 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:51.280 them when they come out. Have you studied the European model, 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.240 particularly Scandinavia and Germany and some of those places. Yeah, 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.680 I have. I've been to Norway a couple of different 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.760 times and One Voice United work with the Norway Union 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.600 in fact, and I've been to Germany, and like, if 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.960 you look at all the especially to Scandinavian countries, as 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.680 you just pointed out, their value on life is so 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.800 much different than it is in America, and why they 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.960 incarcerate is different than it is in America. It's an 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:25.000 interesting thing to understand though, because it helps you to 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.680 try to understand how do we get back to a 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.280 place where we can normalize some things here before somebody 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.960 just goes and hits the streets, and how do we 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.360 take care of them after they hit the streets so 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.880 that they don't come back, and and even how are 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.040 the staff treated? How is that profession looked at in 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.720 Scandinavian countries has looked at much more of a desired 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.560 profession than it is here in America. And there's a reason. 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.680 I mean in Scandinavian there's usually an intensive two year 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:57.080 trading program and it raises that profession up in a 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.400 way that makes them not just a stakeholder. What a 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.560 piece of how that success has met for those who 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.360 are incarcerated. As you've mentioned, most correction officers are taking 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.520 this job straight out of high school, where they're not 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.040 getting the training they need for the kinds of mental 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:16.360 health issues and situations that they're about to experience and 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:20.160 face inside prison. Right and to your point, with a 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.160 higher professional standard and more respect for the position, we'd 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.480 probably find a better prepared staff for those situations and 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:32.800 experiences and then inevitably a result that would be better outcomes. 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.720 Is that fair to say? Yeah, I think it's very fair. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.480 So the reasons why people give in to this line 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.240 of work, as you've mentioned, they don't have a lot 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:43.720 of other options in the communities that they live in, 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.360 and for some it seems like there are only options 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.880 other than the military are either go into crime or 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:53.280 go into corrections. And then there's that other element of 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.280 people who may even look at this as an opportunity 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.680 to be violent in a place where they and you know, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:02.880 get away with it for lack of a better way 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.080 of putting it. Have you found that to be a 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:10.640 common recurrence in your line of work. Yeah, I think 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:12.760 that's the case for some men and women that take 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:17.200 this job. You can never always tell why somebody takes 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.920 a job, and especially a job that has authority to it, 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.560 and it's really up to us to try to weed 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.360 those people out. There is nothing that bothers a good 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.480 corrections officer more than a bad one. And I can 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.000 tell you I've identified my share of folks that come 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:36.440 in there and do things that are just wrong. But 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:41.320 I've also far outnumbering them. And we say this even 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.800 in law enforcement too, and I'm not sure that's the 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:49.800 the the right way to approach that is to say, well, 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:54.600 we have you know, bad apples, and so does Wall Street. 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:59.120 These are positions that come with authority over other human beings. 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:04.639 That's much different how we get through that layer to 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.600 be able to determine this person is not for the 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.920 right thing, and we need to get them out. That's 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:14.280 a systems change, and that's bigger than just being able 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.720 to identify somebody and say they don't do the right 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.880 things and they are assaulted and things, So we need 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:27.120 to get rid of them because the system is designed 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:32.399 two desensitize and dehumanize, and if we don't get at 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:36.080 that component. If we don't change that piece and how 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.280 we're trained and how well we're trained, and how we 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.640 looked at respected and the roles that we play, then 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.520 you will never get at how you weed out bad apples. 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.919 This is the common theme, right, I mean, whenever some 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.280 tragedy strikes, you know, how do you make it so 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:58.320 that a person like that isn't even allowed into that position? 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:00.399 So how do you address that? I mean, do you 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.639 have any ideas other than like just the most basic 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:05.840 we should be taking about drinking and see what kind 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.680 of things that person says after a couple of Jamison's future. Well, 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.320 that's the old school why of doing it. Yeah, right, 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.320 when you're on boarding people, right, I think that is 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:23.000 your best chance of identifying and when you can recognize 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.600 certain things. So those people that are on boarding new 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.440 staff have to be trained and there should be maybe 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:34.159 a psychological exam and different criteria that has to be met, 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:39.920 and there should be a much lengthier time that that 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.360 person is exposed to people who can identify it than 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.919 there is today because today, in many cases, somebody is 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.919 like brought on for a couple of weeks, they're handed 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.800 a set of keys, because they need bodies, they need staff, 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:55.960 they need people to come in the door. I can 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.920 point to a lot of prisons that are so understaffed 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.560 that they can't possibly keep track of everything that takes 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:09.120 place in a day's time. Any administrator can check any 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.760 one of their boxes and say, yep, we're about reform, 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:13.480 and we've done this, that and the other thing. But 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.160 if they've hired a bunch of people with two weeks 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.240 of training or six weeks of training even in some cases, 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.240 and they haven't done their due diligence on what kind 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:26.120 of person they're hiring, then it's not real. Any good 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:30.120 intentions are essentially worthless. That's right. They're just doing that 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:34.040 for themselves. They're checking a box so they can say 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.240 to anyone given community of people, I'm about reform, and 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:40.480 you can see by the policies that I keep that 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.879 I'm about reform. If they're not really getting at the 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:49.040 humanity of this, they're not reforming anything. At the end 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:50.879 of the day, they're going to be as big as 0:19:50.920 --> 0:20:10.439 part of the problem as the originators were. You know, 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:14.760 I've worked on a number of issues nationally and worked 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.600 in and around other circles with other corrections leaders. But 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.920 what really made me want to create One Voice United 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:27.159 and make that a national campaign is that these are 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.840 not the kinds of issues that we can any longer 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.400 tackle at a state by state level because it's too 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.040 easy for those particular states, because of the way they're 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.800 set up, can possibly just ignore what those issues are 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:46.000 very easily and with no accountability. And I think One 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:50.159 Voice United is on its way to building such a 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:55.320 strong coalition of union leaders and other frontline staff, not 0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:00.359 just officers, maintenance, healthcare, teachers, and others that work in 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:05.199 those facilities. It's creating such a momentum. So before we 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:06.960 wrap up the show, I'd like to point out to 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.760 our listeners who have heard what you said, maybe they 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.720 want to show some support. So if you do, and 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.600 I hope you do, please head to One Voice United 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.560 dot org. We'll have that linked in the bio as well. 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.199 And he's didn't write it down. And now we go 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.480 to part one of our clothing, which is something we 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:30.400 always look forward to. It's called the magic wand question. 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.320 I give you a magic want, I give you one wish, 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.280 what do you change? If I could wave a want 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:41.280 and make a change, the change would be that we 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:45.840 wouldn't incarceraate as many people, and those that were incarcerated 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:50.760 and those who worked in those places could have a 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:56.840 much more meaningful experience, a much healthier experience, and a 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:03.000 safer experience. Whatever that looks like. That's a good answer. 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:05.119 And then on that note, I'd like to invite our 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.199 audience in tune in next week when we speak with 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.680 civil rights lawyer, trial attorney and founder of Civil Rights 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.879 Core Alec carkatsan Us. He's a man on a mission 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.639 to end systemic injustice in our criminal legal system, and 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.560 that's no exaggeration. And he's also one of my great 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.919 personal heroes. And now we go to the closing of 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:25.200 our show, which is called Words of Wisdom. This is 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:27.439 where I first of all, thank you Andy Potter for 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.560 joining us and for everything you're doing trying to make 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.280 our system a little bit bearer and better for everyone. 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.440 And then I'm going to turn my microphone off, leave 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.840 my headphones on, kick back in my chair, and just 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:43.679 listen to your closing thoughts. Well, I mean, there's a 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:45.760 lot of things that I wish I could have covered. 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:49.160 You know, we didn't get into the risk part of this. 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:51.719 Jason and not for a lot of leaders. The reason 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.439 that I'm one of the only ones that step forward 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:59.600 on a national level, and I wish that more we're 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.560 willing to take the same risk, because at any given point, 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.280 I could say something that's a little over the top 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:07.600 for a majority of people that listen to me and 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.480 follow me, and they're going to say, you're just too soft. 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:14.480 And I run that risk all the time, and I 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:20.040 risk my livelihood, my reputation, my professional standing. But I 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:24.160 have to push that envelope because I believe that that's 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.840 what leaders should do and tell the truth about a 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:32.080 system that I believe is usually talked about on one 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:36.120 side or the other, but never really talked about as 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:39.879 a whole, and what it does to people. My journey 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:43.000 is going to be different than others, the journey that 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:46.560 I had to go down to understand it wasn't designed 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:51.600 for success. It was built around a racist ideology that 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:57.359 exploits continuously anyone that comes into contact with it, and 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.399 those who come into contact with it don't understand that 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:05.720 when they work there, they perpetuated, but they also collectively 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:10.040 have the strength to change it. If everybody in our 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:14.320 profession said this is wrong, it doesn't treat me right 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:17.719 in a humane way, and it doesn't treat that person 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:22.919 that gets incarcerated in a humane way. If somehow we 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:25.440 had more leaders that could come together and take that 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:29.440 risk and push that, a couple of things would happen. 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:34.000 Those who are making the policies would start to recognize 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:38.399