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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and we're just stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know in it, doing some stuff you should know,

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff on the Stuff you should know podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Hey, can I make.

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Speaker 1: A couple of quick announcements?

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, is it a correction about me?

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Speaker 3: No, that's a listener mail. Okay, just a couple of

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Speaker 3: quick things. Firstly, I have had my front tooth implant redone,

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Speaker 3: So the next roughly eighty episodes might be a little

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Speaker 3: lispy here and there.

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Speaker 2: Can you say sibilants, sibilants?

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Speaker 1: It's actually more f's.

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Speaker 2: Can you say fibilants fibilance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes air just shoots out of that a little toothhole

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Speaker 3: tooth the thh at the end. That's problematic. So you know,

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Speaker 3: here we are again everyone, and bear with it. And

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Speaker 3: I appreciate your support.

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Speaker 2: You can't even tell Chuck like, had you not said something,

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Speaker 2: maybe one person would have noticed. I think it's fine.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, but you'll have some some words you will

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Speaker 3: stand out. The other quick one is just for this

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Speaker 3: episode massive CoA trigger warning any vegetarians or vegans or

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Speaker 3: really anybody who is just grossed out by gross food stuff.

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Speaker 1: This is choc bowl.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. If you find the human body and the stuff

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Speaker 2: it can do odious two, you might want to just

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Speaker 2: be prepared. Yeah, all right, So that was good, good

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Speaker 2: CoA buddy. Yeah, because we are talking about what things

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Speaker 2: were like before America started regulating the meat that we

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Speaker 2: bought in ate and it turns out it was a

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Speaker 2: total free for all until then. But it was really

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Speaker 2: just kind of nestled in a short period. Yeah, you

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Speaker 2: know where like the Second Industrial Revolution happened and all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, everybody moves to the cities and you

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Speaker 2: can't buy your bacon from the guy down the street anymore,

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Speaker 2: or make your own milk or whatever. You have to

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Speaker 2: buy it. And so these companies sprung up to supply

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Speaker 2: that stuff and they started cutting corners immediately.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the American way time and time again. We've

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Speaker 3: seen from the very beginning corporate interest, corporate lobby all

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Speaker 3: in the name of profit. And this isn't just US railing.

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Speaker 3: This is the history of the United States.

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Speaker 2: Yes, for sure, most of them are advertisers on stuff

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Speaker 2: you should know too, probably so so people needed this

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Speaker 2: stuff and if they filled a void, like it was

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Speaker 2: a necessary thing that they were doing. But the problem

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Speaker 2: is because there's zero regulation, I mean none, Like there

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Speaker 2: was an author named Deborah Blum, and she wrote The

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Speaker 2: Poison Squad colon One chemist's single minded crusade for safety

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Speaker 2: at the turn of the twentieth century, and she said

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Speaker 2: that there was nothing that could be done to food

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Speaker 2: that was illegal because there were no food safety laws.

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Speaker 2: There was nothing you could do aside from kill your customers.

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Speaker 2: And even then you might just get some bad press

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Speaker 2: and everybody's like, oh, well it happens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if it was because they just assumed that

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Speaker 3: these new corporations would just sort of deliver food the

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Speaker 3: right way, or I just don't wonder if it was

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Speaker 3: naivete I mean, eventually it was. Obviously stuff started coming

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Speaker 3: out as we'll see in this episode, and Congress, you know,

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Speaker 3: bows down to the donors, as they still do today.

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Speaker 3: But I just wonder what they thought at first, just like, no,

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Speaker 3: this is great, and you know, they're supplying more food

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Speaker 3: and I'm sure they're doing it right.

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Speaker 2: My take on it is because this is like set

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Speaker 2: largely in the Gilded Age, that there was a general

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Speaker 2: like hands off approach like, hey, this business is zooming

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Speaker 2: this economy into the stratosphere. Sure, and we don't want

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Speaker 2: to interfere with it, and I'm sure they're going to

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Speaker 2: do the right thing anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point.

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Speaker 2: So that's my take. I think that there was a

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Speaker 2: combination of not really realizing that we needed regulations because

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Speaker 2: we never needed them before, and then not wanting to

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Speaker 2: meddle with this red hot economic engine that was flaming,

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Speaker 2: just with so many flames.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, flames on the side of your base.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess we should start with milk, huh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, why not? Because it was pretty bad stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 3: Pasturization had been around for a long time. It was

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Speaker 3: a minute in the eighteen fifties, but they didn't get

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Speaker 3: on the widespread pasturization of milk till about the eighty

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Speaker 3: or so years later. So if you went and bought

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Speaker 3: your milk, you know, I think the understanding for a

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Speaker 3: lot of people is like, oh, well, back then you

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Speaker 3: would buy your milk from the local dairy, right, and

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Speaker 3: it was that's way better just to get it fresh

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Speaker 3: from the teat like that, and that was not true

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Speaker 3: because this milk was nasty. It was killing babies. Four

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Speaker 3: hundred thousand babies a year from drinking bad milk.

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Speaker 2: In America alone. That's not a global stat that's just

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Speaker 2: in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: It's nuts. So everybody's like, yeah, this just happens. But

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Speaker 2: I guess people just thought that's what happened when you

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Speaker 2: drink milk sometimes, or I don't know what the thinking was. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: But a guy named John Newell Hurdi h R t Y.

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Speaker 2: He became the chief Health Officer of Indiana in eighteen

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Speaker 2: ninety six, and we should say by this time, just

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Speaker 2: kind of to give it some context, the pure food movement,

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Speaker 2: which was a progressive movement in the nineteenth century, along

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Speaker 2: with like temperance, suffrage, abolition, it had really kind of

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Speaker 2: started to gain steam. So this guy wasn't laying the groundwork,

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Speaker 2: but his work was very noteworthy. But he became the

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Speaker 2: chief Health Officer of Indiana and he immediately started investigating

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Speaker 2: the state's dairy farms and found what they were doing

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Speaker 2: is what was killing, you know, infants who were being

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Speaker 2: fed cow's milk.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was because it was cow's milk that was

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Speaker 3: watered down so they could stretch profits. But it was

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Speaker 3: watered down. It's not like they had some beautiful filtration

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Speaker 3: system from a Poland spring.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I don't even know what a Poland spring is.

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Speaker 2: It's a specific spring. It is ironically not in Poland.

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Speaker 1: I had a feeling so they weren't using that.

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Speaker 3: Of course, they were using like the farm's pond water,

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Speaker 3: which was disgusting. It was stagnant at one point, like

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Speaker 3: he literally held up a bottle of milk from Indiana

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Speaker 3: and saw actual worms inside of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that awful?

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Speaker 1: Live worms they were moving.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that wasn't all he found. He found insects, hares, blood, pus,

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Speaker 2: cow manure. He estimated that just the residents of Indianapolis

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Speaker 2: ingested about two thousand pounds of cow manure every year,

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Speaker 2: just from the milk they were drinking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's collective, not each person, of course, but that's

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Speaker 3: still a lot of I.

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Speaker 2: Think you would ode on cowpoop if you ate that much.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe it would make you into like a superhero.

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Speaker 2: There is another really gross one that Dave turned up.

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Speaker 2: I think it was originally in an Atlantic article about

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Speaker 2: the early days of milk. But one of the things

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Speaker 2: that they would do so like if you thinned milk

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Speaker 2: with water, it was very clearly thinned it. It didn't

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Speaker 2: look like milk it because it was bluish gray. So

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Speaker 2: they put like chalk or flour or plaster of Paris in.

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Speaker 2: Not great, but still it gets much worse. You also,

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Speaker 2: when you got a bottle of milk, expected the cream

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Speaker 2: to still be there on top. The cream rises to

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Speaker 2: the top, as they say, right, well, if you've been

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Speaker 2: watering down your milk, there probably isn't much cream left

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Speaker 2: in it, but you need to put that cream back in.

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Speaker 2: There's something that looks like it. So they said, aside

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Speaker 2: from stagnant pond water, what else do I have on

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Speaker 2: the farm that's basically free that I'm not using that

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Speaker 2: I can use for this? Oh yeah, these little calves

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Speaker 2: that I'm slaughtering and selling is veal. I could use

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Speaker 2: their brains impure because it has kind of a creamy texture,

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Speaker 2: and that will stand in for the cream that I'll

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Speaker 2: put on top of the watered down milk that I'm

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Speaker 2: selling in the bottle.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that is a horrifying thing to hear. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: with human ears, we should point out that wasn't It

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Speaker 3: wasn't like everybody was doing that. This is like an

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Speaker 3: example of you know, who knows, it could have been

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Speaker 3: one farm. But what they did find out what was

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Speaker 3: being used widespread and just sort of with regularity in

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Speaker 3: the industry was using formaldehyde to preserve milk pre pasteurization,

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Speaker 3: which is you know, we all know it's an embalming

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Speaker 3: chemical used for dead bodies to make them last longer.

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Speaker 3: And this was literally killing babies if you were a

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Speaker 3: kid in Indianapolis in an orphanage, or actually anywhere in

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Speaker 3: the United States. They didn't have a baby formula back then.

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Speaker 3: You can listen to our episode on do we do

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Speaker 3: one just on baby formula?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one on formula and one on the breast.

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Speaker 3: I think, oh, that's right. I thought there was two

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Speaker 3: on the breast, but it was too total. That wasn't

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Speaker 3: trying to be funny.

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Speaker 2: There, Well, it was hilarious.

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Speaker 3: They would you know, you would get cow's milk as

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Speaker 3: a little bebie in an orphanage, so it would you know,

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Speaker 3: it would it would kill a kid very quickly if

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Speaker 3: you're drinking formaldehyde.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it doesn't take much for a little infant, right,

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Speaker 2: And it's apparently one of those things I read that

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Speaker 2: it's it will just kill you, like almost immediately if

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Speaker 2: you ingest the right amount. So it's not good. And

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Speaker 2: even if it doesn't kill you right away, it's it's

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Speaker 2: not a pleasant way to die. And again, four hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand babies a year we're dying in the United States

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Speaker 2: just from bad milk. So it was definitely more than

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Speaker 2: just one one dairy farm in Indiana. It was a

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Speaker 2: widespread problem.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely, So you know that's hero number one. Hero

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Speaker 3: number two also comes to us from Indiana.

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Speaker 2: Wait, wait, before we move on, you got to tell

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Speaker 2: him that great, great quote from doctor Herdy.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I thought it was kind of smarmy. Sure, I

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Speaker 3: guess he had the right to be smarmy. A reporter

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Speaker 3: asked if formaldehyde and milk was dangerous, and he said, well,

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Speaker 3: I guess it's all right if you want to embalm

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Speaker 3: the baby.

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Speaker 2: That didn't strike me as smarmy.

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Speaker 1: Is it smarmy for the nineteen twenties or whatever?

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Speaker 2: I guess, But he's he's saying like that's what the

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Speaker 2: milk producers are doing. They're embalming babies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I just I don't know. I thought a man

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Speaker 3: of science would say it is extremely dangerous.

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Speaker 2: I see, you know, I see, yeah, I get so.

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Speaker 3: Still a hero, a little smarmy maybe, but who is

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Speaker 3: to spare him?

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Speaker 1: The second hoo's your.

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Speaker 3: Hero that's coming in is a gentleman named doctor Harvey

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Speaker 3: Washington Wiley. In the eighteen eighties, he got to be

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Speaker 3: in his bonnet about the problem with food.

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Speaker 1: He was a boiler.

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Speaker 3: Maker professor there at Purdue, and then the USDA, the

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Speaker 3: fairly new USDA, said all right, we're going to start

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Speaker 3: a Bureau of Chemistry, and you're the guy that's going to.

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Speaker 1: Run it, right he was.

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Speaker 2: He essentially dedicated his entire adult life and career to

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Speaker 2: fighting for like making the American food market wholesome. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: like that's what that guy did. And he actually had

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Speaker 2: a bit of the showman in him. He had a

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Speaker 2: huge ego. Apparently, most of the people who were talking

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Speaker 2: about today had enormous egos, and they rubbed up against

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Speaker 2: one another, and even though they didn't like one another,

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Speaker 2: most of them they still managed to work together to

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Speaker 2: affect real change. Which is kind of a cool little

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Speaker 2: hats off to everybody. So one of the first things

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Speaker 2: that doctor Wiley did when the USDA hired him to

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Speaker 2: run the Bureau of Chemistry, which apparently was a new

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Speaker 2: department at the time. This is in the I think

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Speaker 2: the eighteen eighties or the late nineteenth century at the

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Speaker 2: very least, he started testing syrup and jam and all

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Speaker 2: sorts of stuff. I'm not quite sure if he was

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Speaker 2: doing it to compare because he was actually researching corn

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Speaker 2: syrup at the time, to find out if this was

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Speaker 2: actually okay to use as a food because there was

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Speaker 2: that whole pure food movement was like, hey, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what we're putting into our food to preserve it,

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Speaker 2: Like we didn't used to do that ten years ago

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Speaker 2: before everybody moved to the city. I'm not sure how

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Speaker 2: I feel about this. So doctor Wiley's job was to

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Speaker 2: find out if these things were actually harmful or if

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Speaker 2: you could use them. One of the first things he

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Speaker 2: found out was that most of the maple syrup and

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Speaker 2: the honey, like ninety percent of the honey was fake.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't a drop of honey in it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was corn syrup. They would flavor a little

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Speaker 3: bit with maple. For the syrup, they would flavor it

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Speaker 3: like whatever fruit.

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Speaker 1: I guess. For jam, I'm not sure what they flavored

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Speaker 1: it with.

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Speaker 2: For honey, I don't know either, Like how would you

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Speaker 2: take a bite and be like, this is honey?

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Speaker 1: I guess, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: But that was just sort of a jumping off point

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Speaker 3: where he was like, well, wait a minute, if they're

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Speaker 3: doing this to honey and maypay syrup, we need to

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Speaker 3: start looking into other things. And he started to learn

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Speaker 3: about formaldehyde in foods. Borax, which is a it's a cleaner,

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Speaker 3: you know, like boric acid cleaner under the brand. I

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Speaker 3: think it was a brand, wasn't it Borax?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I think it was like twenty Mule team Borax.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Was the name. That was the name of the brand.

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Speaker 3: But he started realizing this stuff was in our food.

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Speaker 3: He got obviously pretty upset about it and goes to Congress,

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Speaker 3: and Congress is not interested in passing anything because, as

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Speaker 3: you will see, just like you know the things that

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Speaker 3: go on today, the food lobby was strong and rich

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Speaker 3: and powerful, and Congress sat on their hands.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that. Author Deborah Blum also said that like there

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Speaker 2: was no political will, not just because they were in

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Speaker 2: the pockets of like the food producers. They a lot

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Speaker 2: of them, most certainly were, and basically all of them

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Speaker 2: were getting money from them at the very least. But

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Speaker 2: that also if you introduced one of these bills, you

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Speaker 2: were like a crackpot. You were a quack. You were

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Speaker 2: you had no idea, right, you had no idea what

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Speaker 2: it meant to like be in the business world. You

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Speaker 2: were just a dummy. That's how. That's how these things

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Speaker 2: were reviewed. And I think something like a hundred or something.

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Speaker 2: I think like more than one hundred bills were introduced

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Speaker 2: and just within a decade or so, and only like

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Speaker 2: eight or nine of them managed to get passed. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's how that's how looked down upon the idea of

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Speaker 2: food regulation was at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So Wiley is a pretty smart guy, he said, He's

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Speaker 3: kind of had a little bit of showman quality to him.

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Speaker 3: So he got together an experiment, also sort of a

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Speaker 3: PR stunt. In nineteen oh two, he took twelve government

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Speaker 3: clerks and put them in housing in the basement of

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Speaker 3: the Agricultural Department building there in DC, and they were

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Speaker 3: exposed to what they called Hygienic Table trials, where half

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Speaker 3: of these young men were secretly fed formaldehyde, borax, sodium benzonate,

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Speaker 3: all kinds of nasty chemicals like the stuff that was

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Speaker 3: going in food, and it was conveniently leaked to the

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Speaker 3: press and doctor Wiley. They were called the Poison Squad,

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Speaker 3: and doctor Wiley was dubbed Old Borax.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he he actually became a national figure, like

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Speaker 2: people like just as the average American knew about him.

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Speaker 2: If you read the newspaper, you probably were familiar with doctor.

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Speaker 1: Wiley, the old Borax, old Borax.

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Speaker 2: And we talked about him in the Poison Squad in

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Speaker 2: I think that does the FDA Protect Americans episode? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just kind of briefly, But I mean that whole book

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Speaker 2: that Deborah Blum wrote was about doctor Wiley and the

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Speaker 2: Poison Squad and the work he did amazing, and Wiley

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Speaker 2: definitely deserves a lot of credit. He gets less credit

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Speaker 2: than he probably should get because around that time people

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Speaker 2: started to kind of look at Teddy Roosevelt, as we'll see,

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Speaker 2: as the person who really got the legislation pushed through.

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Speaker 2: But it probably would not have happened it when it

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Speaker 2: did without doctor Wiley. But in addition to doctor Wiley,

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Speaker 2: there was also Teddy Roosevelt and another guy, a muck

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Speaker 2: ranking journalist, a socialist named Upton Sinclair, and those two

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Speaker 2: were considered to be some real driving forces behind food

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Speaker 2: regulation in America.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know what that means.

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Speaker 2: It means that it's time for a message break.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: It means I'm going to go try and find a

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Speaker 3: tiny chick lit it to shove into my tooth hole.

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Speaker 2: You should just switch the colors once in a while.

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Speaker 1: Aaron Cooper has my flipper.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's right, man, quite a gift.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it would fit now anyway. Okay, So

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Speaker 3: don't feel bad, Coop. Just keep praying to that thing

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Speaker 3: every night and it'll be okay.

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Speaker 1: So weird, all right, we'll be right back, all right.

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Speaker 3: So we left off with quite a teaser that a

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Speaker 3: gentleman named Teddy Roosevelt and a socialist writer named Upton

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Speaker 3: Sinclair would change the course of America.

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Speaker 1: And boy did they.

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Speaker 3: A little background on Teddy Roosevelt just because it really

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Speaker 3: applies here to how he got sort of swept up

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Speaker 3: in all this. To begin with, he was a soldier.

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Speaker 3: He led the rough riders and the invasion of Spanish

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Speaker 3: held Cuba. And the reason that is important to this

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Speaker 3: story is because that invasion and that whole war was

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Speaker 3: a lot of Americans died, but not from the battle itself.

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Speaker 3: I think about four hundred Americans died in combat, but

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Speaker 3: about fifty five hundred died from disease, from malaria and

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Speaker 3: dysentery and typhoid. So President McKinley, after the war started,

350
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Speaker 3: just a big military commission to investigate what it was

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Speaker 3: like to be a soldier in all these awful conditions.

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Speaker 3: And that very key to this story included the food.

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Speaker 1: That they ate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because there was at least among the people who

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Speaker 2: had fought in the Spanish American War, there was this

356
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Speaker 2: awareness that the roast beef, especially the canned roast beef

357
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Speaker 2: god that had been delivered as rations. Yeah. Yeah, you're

358
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Speaker 2: walking a fine line just even attempting canned roast beef, Right,

359
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,439
Speaker 2: it better be good. This was so not good. It

360
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 2: was it was like it would make you immediately start vomiting.

361
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Speaker 2: According to Teddy Roosevelt, Yeah, they called it embalm meek

362
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Speaker 2: because some of it was clearly rotted. But then they'd

363
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Speaker 2: added formaldehyde. This wasn't even like, Okay, this is fresh meat,

364
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Speaker 2: we're gonna add formaldehyde. They would put the formaldehyde in

365
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Speaker 2: after it was rotted to try to counteract the.

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Speaker 1: Rod you know, to bring it back to life.

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Speaker 2: Exactly to frankenstein it up. And they found that that, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: when you ate the stuff, it didn't matter what you

369
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Speaker 2: did to cook it or anything like that. It would

370
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Speaker 2: just make you throw up or just start pooping your pants,

371
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Speaker 2: like almost immediately. And Teddy Roosevelt and all the other

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Speaker 2: veterans of the Spanish American War were pretty miffed about this.

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Speaker 2: So when Roosevelt got the chance to go testify for Congress,

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Speaker 2: he was the governor of New York by this time,

375
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Speaker 2: about that beef, that tinned beef, he definitely took the chance,

376
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Speaker 2: or took the opportunity.

377
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Speaker 3: Yeah, he called that canned beef a disgrace to our

378
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 3: country and also had a little testimonial description when the

379
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 3: cans were opened to the top was nothing more than

380
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,240
Speaker 3: a layer of slime. It was disagreeable looking, that's putting

381
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,439
Speaker 3: it mildly and nasty. Sometimes we stowed it with potato

382
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 3: and onions. But I could have eaten my hat stewed

383
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 3: with potato and onions rather than the beef. Nearly all

384
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Speaker 3: the men sickened after eating it.

385
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Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that cross?

386
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Speaker 1: Yeah?

387
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Speaker 3: Any you know, like you said, by this time, I

388
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 3: mean he was already a war hero, but governor of

389
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Speaker 3: New York, he has you know, some clout all of

390
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Speaker 3: a sudden.

391
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Speaker 2: For sure. Yeah. He was fairly well known enough that

392
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,200
Speaker 2: when McKinley stood for reelection in nineteen hundred, he chose

393
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Speaker 2: Teddy Roosevelt as his running mate. Yeah, and he was

394
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Speaker 2: still young. I think he was forty two. Less than

395
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Speaker 2: a year into the second McKinley administration, McKinley was assassinated

396
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Speaker 2: and died, and so suddenly Teddy Roosevelt, the vice president,

397
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Speaker 2: is president, and he became the youngest president in history.

398
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:05,440
Speaker 2: K was forty three, Roosevelt was forty two. And it's

399
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 2: really weird. It's one of those moments in history where

400
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 2: the right person happens to be in the right place

401
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 2: to really make things happen that seemed intractable before.

402
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

403
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 2: And I don't know enough about Teddy Roosevelt to fully

404
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 2: sing his praises, but from what I can tell, just

405
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,159
Speaker 2: the brief stuff I've read about him researching this. He

406
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 2: was a really interesting, level headed dude, at least as

407
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 2: far as balancing the interests of the United States went.

408
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 2: Dare I say that, Well he was.

409
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Speaker 3: He figured big in the foundation of our national parks.

410
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 2: So that was a big part. But also like in

411
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 2: this specifically, he saw a very important need that needed

412
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 2: to be filled, which was the meat producers, but the

413
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: food producers in general, the meat producers in particular needed regularly.

414
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 2: They were doing some nasty stuff, he found out, and

415
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,199
Speaker 2: he went to Congress and was like, make this happen.

416
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 2: If you don't make it happen, I'm going to basically

417
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 2: expose all of you who are in the pockets of

418
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 2: this beef trust as they call it, the Big five

419
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,959
Speaker 2: beef producers, which included Armor, Swift, and Libby. Who are

420
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 2: all three still around making meat in the United States.

421
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know his hands were even as president,

422
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 3: tied by Congress and the lobby.

423
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: Until that is.

424
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 3: Our final hero of the day comes along a gentleman

425
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 3: named Upton Sinclair, like you said, a hardcore socialist and

426
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 3: a writer who wrote the very very famous book The

427
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 3: Jungle about well most people, if they've never read the

428
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 3: Jungle would probably say, yeah, it's about exposing the meat

429
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 3: packing in Chicago, right, But fourteen I'm sorry, fifteen pages

430
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 3: really covered that meatpacking disgust that we are going to

431
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 3: have to talk about.

432
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Speaker 1: So just get ready.

433
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 3: The book was really about an immigrant worker who comes

434
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 3: to America and has sort of just stopped on by

435
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 3: capitalism because again, he was a socialist and this was

436
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 3: his cause.

437
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: Right.

438
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in the end of the book, the worker

439
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 2: who's I think only identified as Urgis j u Rgis,

440
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 2: he just keeps getting like, he loses his family, he

441
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 2: loses essentially anything good to his life by being ground

442
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 2: through the gears of capitalism. And on the other side,

443
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: he comes out and finds that socialism is the answer

444
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 2: and starts dedicating himself to building a socialist paradise or whatever. Right.

445
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 2: So that was, like you said, the point of the book.

446
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 2: But when America read this book, they did not pay

447
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: any attention to that socialist message at all. In fact,

448
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: plenty of them ignored the fact that there was an

449
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 2: overt socialist message and still read the book and got

450
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: something out of it. And what they got was those

451
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 2: fifteen pages of disgusting descriptions of what was going on

452
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 2: in Chicago's meatpacking district where essentially all of the beef

453
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: and pork and I guess sheep mutton was processed this

454
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 2: one area and just where they kept the live live

455
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,719
Speaker 2: stock before slaughter, just when they arrived by train and

456
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: put them into a pen. Just that pen, chuck was

457
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: a square mile big.

458
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was known as packing town. And in order

459
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 3: to get this information, he went undercover. He spent seven

460
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 3: weeks posing as a worker in this meatpacking district, which

461
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 3: was like I said, it's called packing town, but it

462
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 3: was in the heart of the Union stockyards, and like

463
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 3: you said, they would bring in by train. It was

464
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 3: the most efficient system on earth for processing animals. Ten

465
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 3: thousand cattle, ten thousand hogs, five thousand sheep a day

466
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 3: coming in being processed. They were doing I think they

467
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 3: were going through eighteen million animals a year at this

468
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 3: point because of a very innovative new system called assembly

469
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 3: line work, which is you know, we know what it

470
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 3: is now, but back then it was kind of revolutionary.

471
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 3: And that they would put make one person do one

472
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 3: job and one job only, all day long, for twelve

473
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 3: hours a day, and as fast as they could.

474
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you screwed up. The four men would

475
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: be like, you had one job.

476
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't get your finger cut off and put into

477
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 3: a sausage.

478
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that would happen, right. They would use everything

479
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: they could from the animal. Apparently there was a widely

480
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: known phrase that was used there that they used everything

481
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: about the hog except for the squeal just haunting.

482
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

483
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 3: Well, I want to point out though, like not in

484
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 3: the way that like an ethical master chef wants to

485
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: use or a hunter that you know, provides meat for

486
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 3: their family tries to use every you know, good edible

487
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: part of the animal.

488
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: That's a different deal.

489
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: We're talking about like you know, grinding up hoofs for

490
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 3: you know, filler exactly.

491
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you pointed that out right.

492
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

493
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 2: So when he wrote The Jungle, he interviewed, first of all,

494
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 2: he witnessed what he wrote about firsthand. But he said,

495
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: like I did not I did not like exaggerate this stuff.

496
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: This is not me embellishing, Like I witnessed this firsthand.

497
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: And the stuff that I didn't witness firsthand, I interviewed

498
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: people who witnessed it firsthand. Yeah, and so he's like,

499
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 2: this stuff in the book is real. People and we

500
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 2: haven't even really kind of cracked into what was in

501
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: those fifteen pages. I say we do that.

502
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: Now, should we take a break into it.

503
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: I think that's a fine idea.

504
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: Chuck, all right, we'll be right back.

505
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, So we're back. It's time to get into

506
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: the grizzly details of the jungle. There's some pretty famous

507
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 2: stuff in there, just because it just it got out

508
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 2: so far and wide. It was a very widely read

509
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: book and an even more widely discussed book because of

510
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: the disgust that it generated. But for example, when they

511
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: when they generated when they created sausage, like Upton Sinclair

512
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: told everybody how the sausage is made, and everybody's like,

513
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: we didn't want to know, but now we know, and

514
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 2: we can't unknow it. They would grind up moldy sausage

515
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: that had been rejected from Europe so it was bad

516
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: when it got to Europe, and then they shipped it

517
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: back to America, and then they used it in the

518
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: sausage they fed Americans. That stuff would also be mixed

519
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: in with scraps of meat that had been shoveled off

520
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: of the floor. Probably at that couple of times a day,

521
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: they would shovel meat scraps and flesh and blood off

522
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 2: of the floor put it into the sausage mixture. That's

523
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: bad enough that it was on the floor, but the

524
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 2: workers frequently had things like tuberculosis and they were spitting

525
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: bloody tuberculotic spit onto the floor, so that would get

526
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: mixed in with the food scraps, the meat scraps that

527
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 2: would be put into the sausages. There was a rat

528
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: problem there, so they would put out poison pieces of

529
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: bread for the rats, and then when the rats ate

530
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 2: the bread and died, they put the rats in the sausage.

531
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: And then furguod measure, they put the poison bread in

532
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: the sausage too. This was just the sausage that they

533
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: were making.

534
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I get the feeling that there was. If

535
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 3: there was a poster on the wall of this workplace,

536
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: it was if it's on the floor, it's in the sausage.

537
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

538
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: Tobacco spit, That's that's probably the best thing you could

539
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 3: hope for.

540
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you being a flavor tobacco spit.

541
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, if anyone's still listening, you know, obviously potted meats,

542
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 3: you know, mystery meat is kind of a funny thing

543
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: to say these days, but back then it was truly dangerous.

544
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: It was you know, organ meats, It was tripe. This

545
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: is a quote, and it's hard for me to even

546
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: say this word for because of my tooth and because

547
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 3: it's disgusting. But the hard car cardalin is cardlinagenus, cartilaginous, cartilaginous. Yeah,

548
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: there we go, hard cartilaginous gullets of beef after the

549
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: tongues had been cut out, was in this potted meat

550
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: as well.

551
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the potted chicken in particular. It always appears

552
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: in quotes because it was later determined there was no

553
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: chicken at all in the potted chicken. It was just,

554
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: like you said, every piece of the animal they could use,

555
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: not for ethical purposes, but because they could sell it

556
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: as potted chicken and tell everybody, yeah, it's just ground

557
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: up chicken, just to eat it and shut up.

558
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. So you know this is awful. The workers themselves

559
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: are working in deplorable conditions, twelve hours a day in

560
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 3: these disgusting rooms, doing this stuff, the same job over

561
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: and over and over, which was a new thing. Like

562
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 3: people weren't used to assembly line work much less like

563
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: if your job all day is to I don't even know.

564
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: I can't even imagine what they were doing.

565
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: Skinning, slicing, removing, deboning.

566
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go. They I made the joke about

567
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: losing a finger, but they did. They would lose digits,

568
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: they would lose limbs. This stuff would go into the food.

569
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 3: There were even people that fell into lard vats and

570
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: boiled alive and that.

571
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: Went into the food. Yeah, there was a well, they

572
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: went into the lard.

573
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: There was a quote that well which eventually went into food,

574
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: you know exactly. There was a quote from Sinclair that said,

575
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: all but the bones of them went out into the

576
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: world as DRAMs pure beef flowed.

577
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: I don't think Derams is around anymore.

578
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: Durhams couldn't survive that one. Yeah, there's another quote from

579
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: Upton Sinclair that he said, I aimed at the public's

580
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: heart and by accident, I hit it in the stomach,

581
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: which is him. Yeah, with him recognizing that he wrote

582
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: this book about socialism and everybody just focused in on

583
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: the really gross food stuff and that even still it

584
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: affected change. It just wasn't the change he was trying

585
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: to affect. But he wasn't one of those guys who's like,

586
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: oh great, I'm a celebrity either way, I don't care

587
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: how I got there. He turned out to be like

588
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: really bitter at everybody missing this message. Like his book

589
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: was widely read and nobody got it, at least they

590
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: didn't get it the way that he intended them to

591
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: get it.

592
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is another good quote. He said that he

593
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 3: was made to a celebrity not because the public cared

594
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: anything about the workers, but simply because the public did

595
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: not want to eat tubercular beef.

596
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, that word. You start messing with that word,

597
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: it gets grosser and grosser.

598
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, tubercular beef should open for diarrhea planet.

599
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: Oh boy, I think you've just come up with a tour.

600
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: So this is a very sort of a bombshell book.

601
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: It was released in nineteen o six in January, sold

602
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 3: twenty five thousand copies right out of the gate, which

603
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 3: was just a ton of books back then. There's a

604
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 3: lot of books now, as we've learned. Within about five months,

605
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: it was translated into seventeen different languages and eventually became

606
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: a silent movie as well in nineteen fourteen.

607
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, like you said, it was a bombshell. Basically,

608
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: that log jam in Congress of you know that had

609
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: kept any food regulation bills essentially from passing this book

610
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: like broke it open. It dislodged all that stuff, and

611
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: the reason why was multifaceted. In addition to grossing out

612
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 2: the public and being like, we're eating this, government, do

613
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: something about this. Somebody do something about this, you had

614
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: that public outcry, which is kind of in line with

615
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: the progressive drum beat, right, you also had a developing

616
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: drum beat coming out of the business side, because that's

617
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: where that's the whole The debate was divided between the

618
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: progressives who were cranks and crazy and didn't understand business,

619
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: and the business side who were like, to shut up

620
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: and eat this stuff. We're trying to make a profit

621
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: here and get the engine of the United States revving.

622
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: There was a group in business that was like, hey,

623
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: we're already following like food safety practices totally and it's

624
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: really expensive compared to our competitors who are cutting every

625
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 2: corner possible and selling unsanitary products for way lower than

626
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: we can sell our safe products. So if these guys

627
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 2: start getting regulated, we're going to even the playing field.

628
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: And as a matter of fact, they'll be behind us

629
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: because they're going to have to play catch up expense

630
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: wise to get to the same level that we're operating

631
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: at and have been all this time. And I said, ketchup,

632
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: which is ironic because one of those companies that was

633
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: already doing things safe was the Heinz Company.

634
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, hats off to the Heinz Company.

635
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, not just Heines, but also old Taylor Whiskey.

636
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know there were it wasn't everyone. And

637
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: that's a really good point. I'm glad you made it

638
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 3: because Heines probably since that has been saying. By the way,

639
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 3: you know, we weren't a part of all that, right,

640
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: you know, it should have been called the Jungle Colon

641
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 3: except for Hines. So Roosevelt all of a sudden is

642
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 3: getting one hundred calls I'm sorry, not calls. He was

643
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 3: getting one hundred letters a day, calls. He would have

644
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 3: been like, what's happening here about food safety? He calls

645
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 3: up Upton Sinclair. These guys should not be buddies, And spoiler,

646
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 3: they did not end up being buddies. Yeah, it wasn't

647
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: like some crazy like you're like this and I'm like this,

648
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 3: but you know, we have a lot in common. As

649
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 3: it turns out, the only thing they had in common,

650
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 3: it seems like, was that they wanted to clean up

651
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: the food situation in the United States. They didn't trust

652
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: each other, of course, they didn't really like each other.

653
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: Of course, Roosevelt.

654
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 3: Did not like a muck breaking journalist, and of course

655
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: Sinclair was like, Hey, the Beef Trust is giving you

656
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 3: two hundred thousand dollars for your presidential campaign, which in

657
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,479
Speaker 3: the future, in twenty twenty four, that would be seven

658
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 3: million dollars.

659
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: Wow, so you're in.

660
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 3: The pocket of the Beef Trust, which he denied, of course,

661
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 3: because he had to eat that beef in Cuba.

662
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, he said, mister Sinclair, I bear no love for

663
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: those gentlemen, for I ate the meat they can for

664
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: the army in Cuba.

665
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, comma, but their checks cashed all the same.

666
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: Well, he lived up to that quote. He took on

667
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 2: the Beef Trust, and he got this legislation essentially passed

668
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: through as we'll see. And then, just as a side note,

669
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: you mentioned muckrakers. Apparently Teddy Roosevelt was the one who

670
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 2: inadvertently coined that term. He was giving a speech about

671
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what the whole point of the speech

672
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: was about, but he was basically railing against journalists to

673
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 2: go look and dig up scandal. And he allowed that

674
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: there's a role that they play in the public forum

675
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 2: that's a good role, which is if there's somebody doing

676
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: something shady, these guys are going to go find out

677
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: and tell everybody, and that's a public good. What he

678
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: was saying is even when given the chance to just

679
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: write legitimate journalism, after that, they still go look for

680
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: scandal and like try to cause problems that might not

681
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: necessarily need, that aren't really problems. And he compared them

682
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: to a character from Pilgrim's Progress who was the muckraker

683
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 2: and muck is poop by the way, who had the

684
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 2: chance to trade in his muckrake for not a muckrake

685
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: and didn't even look up to didn't even bother looking up,

686
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 2: just kept looking down at the muck he was raking

687
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: for not a muckrake exactly.

688
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: So he doesn't like Sinclair, like we said, he certainly

689
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: doesn't trust him. He thought that the account in the

690
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 3: Jungle was he called it hysterical. So he's like, I'm

691
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 3: going to look into this myself, and by myself, I

692
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 3: mean I'm going to have other people do it for me.

693
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: Charles Neil, who was a Commissioner of the Bureau of

694
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: Labor at the time, and an attorney from New York

695
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: named James Reynolds would do the same thing. Well, I

696
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: don't think they posed as workers, but they did the

697
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 3: investigation in packing town in Chicago. It resulted in the

698
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 3: Neil Reynolds report. And basically, I mean the long story

699
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 3: short of the Neils Reynolds report is, by the way,

700
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 3: everything he said what's true.

701
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's even more more than than he put

702
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: it in his book. That was the thing you said,

703
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: they didn't pose as packing workers. The packing companies knew

704
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 2: they were coming, and they yes, and they were so

705
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: like the stuff they were doing was just so bad

706
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 2: and entrenched that they still were caught doing all this

707
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 2: stuff knowing that these were coming to investigate. So now

708
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: Teddy Roosevelt has documentation from two people that he trusts saying, yes,

709
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 2: this is actually going on. This is a huge problem

710
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: and we need to do something about it.

711
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: Should we talk about the bathrooms.

712
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: Yes, let's because we haven't been super gross for a minute.

713
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 3: So like we said, they exposed even worse things than

714
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: in the book, and this is one of them. The

715
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 3: bathrooms weren't really bathrooms. Sometimes it would just be a

716
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 3: little cordoned off area of the same workroom floor where

717
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 3: they're scooping up god knows what to put into the sausage.

718
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 3: There was obviously no sinks, there were no open toilets.

719
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 3: You would just pee in that corner. There was no soap,

720
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 3: no toilet paper, and that's when it was just sort

721
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 3: of cordoned off.

722
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: There were also places where it was just nothing.

723
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: They would just pee where they were so they could

724
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 3: keep working as fast as they could. They said, the

725
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 3: fumes from the urine, I'll just read the quote hints

726
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 3: in some cases, the fumes from the urine swell the

727
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: sum of nauseating odors arising from the dirty, blood soaked

728
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 3: rotting wood floors.

729
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: Fruitful.

730
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, fruitful is hard for me to say. Fruitful culture

731
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: beds for the disease germs of men and animals.

732
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't forget. Multiple times a day they scraped

733
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: up the stuff that had dropped on the floor and

734
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: put it in the sausage. And I saw a description

735
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 2: of those floors that really turned my stomach. They called

736
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 2: them spongy. Isn't that awful because they were rotting from

737
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 2: spit and blood and urine. That's what the meat was

738
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: coming into contact.

739
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it held even more.

740
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so gross, dude, spongy wood as bad enough as

741
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: it is.

742
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: Oh man.

743
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 3: So the other thing they did was said, and by

744
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 3: the way, President Benjamin Harris former president, in eighteen ninety

745
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: you signed a very weak meat inspection bill that basically

746
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 3: put USDA inspectors at these meat packing plants. But all

747
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 3: they were charged to do was say, well, this cow

748
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 3: was healthy before they slaughtered it, and I'm going back

749
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 3: to sleep now. They had no authority to oversee what

750
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 3: happened after that point exactly.

751
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 2: So even the rejected animals that those USDA inspectors would

752
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: be like, this one doesn't pass, muster, get rid of it.

753
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: They would get rid of it, and then when the

754
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: inspector left, they would go back and get it and

755
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: process it anyway. So there was no actual like oversight. Yeah.

756
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: Even the oversight that was there was just completely undermined.

757
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

758
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: So this this was like, this was bad news for

759
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 2: the Beef Trust and other packers. This something was now

760
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: going to happen because Teddy Roosevelt had this report, and

761
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: in addition to the jungle being out in public, he said, Hey,

762
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: I've got this report, Congress, I want these I want

763
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: some reforms to be pushed through. Make it happen, or

764
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to release this report that I've commissioned that's

765
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: really getting to blow the lid off of this stuff.

766
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: And he got cooperation from the Senate. They passed a bill,

767
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: passed a great bill, and then it started to get

768
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 2: blocked in the House, and I think it came down

769
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 2: to like two senators or no, two congress people, congressmen

770
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: who were so in the Beef Trust pocket that they

771
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: staged a last ditch effort at stopping these meat inspection

772
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: bills from going through. And that finally did it for Roosevelt,

773
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 2: and he released the Neil Reynolds report, and it just

774
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 2: made anybody sticking up for the Beef Trust look so

775
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: bad that you just couldn't get in the way of

776
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 2: it any longer.

777
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think didn't someone leaked it beforehand too?

778
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 3: Didn't Upton Sinclair help leak it?

779
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, supposedly, And I guess Teddy Roosevelt angrily wired Doubleday,

780
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: the publisher, the actual guy named Doubleday, and said, like,

781
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: can you please tell up upting Sinclair to leave the

782
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: is of ruting the country to me? For once?

783
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: That was smarmy.

784
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: You see smarm everywhere in all the quotes.

785
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: I see smarmy people.

786
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 3: So this resulted in two things, the Meat Inspection Act

787
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 3: of nineteen oh six and then eventually the Pure Food

788
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: and Drug Act, which outlawed the sale of any altered, adulterated,

789
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 3: mislabeled foods, drug, medicine, or liquor. Became known as doctor

790
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 3: Wiley's Law or the Wiley Act. Contribute to doctor Wiley.

791
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 3: That was not the creation of the FDA, though that

792
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 3: would come along a little bit later. And like you said,

793
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 3: we have a great episode on the FDA.

794
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: What year was that though nineteen twenty.

795
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: Seven, nineteen thirty. The Bureau of Chemistry was part of

796
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: the USD until nineteen twenty.

797
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 3: Seven, all right, So then finally in nineteen thirty we

798
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 3: get our FDA.

799
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 2: And then finally in nineteen thirty eight, after FDR came

800
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 2: into office, the federal government was the agent. The FDA

801
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: was finally given real teeth to actually regulate stuff. It

802
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 2: was kind of nominal for a while until the late thirties.

803
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 1: You gotta say real teeth right now.

804
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm sorry, I mean as a slam.

805
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: That's all right.

806
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to know more about this really

807
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: interesting period in history, go research up Sin Saint Clair,

808
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 2: Teddy Roosevelt, doctor Harvey Washington, Wiley, read the Jungle, do

809
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: all that stuff, and just see how grossed out you

810
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 2: can get before you vomit. And since Chuck laughed at vomit,

811
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: that means it's time for listener mail.

812
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. I read this.

813
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 3: It's an email about our live show in Seattle, and

814
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 3: I read this as sort of a hey, here's what

815
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: you get at a stuff you should know show. Because

816
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,919
Speaker 3: we've got we've got the cities lined up. We haven't

817
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 3: announced on sale dates or anything, but I think we

818
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 3: can probably say what cities were going through.

819
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, Yeah, I think it's pretty much in the bag.

820
00:43:59,120 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: All right.

821
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 3: So we're going to hit Chicago, Indianapolis, and Minneapolis, all

822
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 3: the apolis is and then where are we going in

823
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 3: the Northeast this year?

824
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: In the Northeast, We're doing DC, We're going to do Boston. Yeah,

825
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 2: we're going to us New York City, which we haven't

826
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: been to in a while.

827
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a minute since we've been to New York.

828
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 3: And then we're going to finish out the year in Durham,

829
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 3: North Carolina, and our final show the year in Atlanta,

830
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 3: like we like to do.

831
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the schedule as it stands now, and it's

832
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 2: pretty close to baked, close enough that we're willing to

833
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: say this in the hopes that we don't have to

834
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 2: edit out of town.

835
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: That's right.

836
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 3: So I read this because this is a little taste

837
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 3: of what you can get here. And this is from

838
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: Mary Benedict, a grandma to a grandson, and they went

839
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 3: to the show together.

840
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: Oh, this is a great email.

841
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: It was Hey, guys, been listening for about ten years.

842
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 3: I'm a huge fan and retired teacher. I introduced my

843
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: grandson just stuff you should know, and he too has

844
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 3: become a devoted fan. So for Christmas, I gave him

845
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 3: tickets to the live event in Seattle. He was thrilled.

846
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 3: We went to the show, absolutely loved the experience. The

847
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 3: topic was fun. You two are as great as you

848
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 3: sound in your episodes. As the questions move forward, so

849
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 3: we do a little Q and a at the end. Surprise,

850
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 3: surprise if you haven't been to a show. So as

851
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: the questions move forward toward the end, you declared one

852
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 3: final question which would have left my grandson at the mic.

853
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 3: I was repeating to myself, please please see that he's

854
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 3: a kid. Please see that he's a kid, and Chuck

855
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 3: did exactly that. You asked him how old he was,

856
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 3: as well as the girl behind him, both were fourteen.

857
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 3: You apologize to the other side and let the two

858
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 3: young people talk with you. Please know what a remarkable

859
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 3: moment that was for my grandson, A euphoric life experience

860
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 3: in memory.

861
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: So thank you.

862
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 3: I also want to share my appreciation for how kind

863
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 3: you were to all the people in Q and A.

864
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 3: You always asked a question about them or thoughtfully commented

865
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 3: on personal things they shared with you.

866
00:45:58,160 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: That level of.

867
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 3: Compassion and kindness is extraordinary. In my regard for you,

868
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 3: both rose even higher. And lastly, Josh, thank you for

869
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: your vulnerability sharing that you need to avoid the news

870
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 3: right now, for your well being, demonstrated strength and emotional

871
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 3: intelligence to everyone present, and thank you for modeling great

872
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 3: life strategies. Are you familiar with highly sensitive people? You

873
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 3: may not be one, but I am and my grandson.

874
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 1: Is as well.

875
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 3: It is a character trait, not a problem, and that

876
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 3: would make a fantastic topic for a podcast for sure.

877
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 3: Sorry this ran long, but in the world where people

878
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 3: are quick to point out what's wrong, Mary, we love you.

879
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 3: I believe it's important to tell people what they are

880
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 3: doing when they are doing great things. And you two

881
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 3: are doing great things.

882
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: That's awesome, That is wonderful.

883
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 3: That is Mary with an I Benedict and Mary's grandson.

884
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: So thank you both for coming.

885
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks a lot, a lot, Yeah, for sure.

886
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

887
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: The life strategy example I'm setting is avoidance.

888
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: Now, avoiding the news is not avoidance.

889
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: If it's true. If you want to be like Mary

890
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 2: and her grandson and come to one of our shows,

891
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: we will eventually put the information and links and all

892
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 2: that for tickets up and in the meantime you can

893
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 2: get in touch with us by email at stuff podcast

894
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: at iHeartRadio dot com.

895
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

896
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

897
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.