WEBVTT - Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.200 Well, Happy Friday. That's right, I've snuck in a special 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.920 edition of the Chuck Todcast both of course in the 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:16.000 audio and visual space, my guests for this. It's a 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.880 special on the fitbook. We just passed the fiftieth anniversary 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:21.439 of the Fall of Saigon, essentially the end of the 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:27.080 Vietnam War. And look, Vietnam has sort of defined our 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.400 for half the country or anybody over the age of fifty, 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.400 Vietnam has been a definer of our politics. I mean, 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:36.159 I can just tell you about my own family. My 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.720 father will tell you he's no longer with us, but 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:42.400 he'll tell he would say to me, he's only the 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:44.839 reason he became a Republican is he blamed LBJ for 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:48.280 Vietnam and the death of his best friend. His best 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.920 friend died in a training accident after being drafted to 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:56.280 go into Vietnam. I'll you know, I'll never forget. When 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.520 I was going through my dad's things, he had a 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:04.080 whole file folder on every time he had to deal 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.400 with potentially going to Vietnam. And he didn't have to go, 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.360 and he didn't want to go. He had a medical deferment. 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:11.520 At first he had flat feet, and then when that 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:15.160 didn't work. He got lucky with his lottery number. But 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.520 what was interesting is how he had saved all of 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.040 it and he had all this information. And I'll tell 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.200 you why it had a huge impact on me. Anytime 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:25.200 any of these guys that have run for office over 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.119 the last twenty years, thirty years who claimed they couldn't 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.920 remember how they got out of Vietnam, or couldn't remember this, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.560 or couldn't remember that. All I would remember is my 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.160 dad's file folder. And I'm like, if you were that 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.720 concerned about getting out of Vietnam, you knew every gosh 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.959 darn detail of how you got out or what was 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.240 going to take. And so I will tell you I've 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.400 always been a bit more of a harsher person on 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:55.000 any of these politicians that would you know. Look, I 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.840 don't begrudge anybody who tried to get out of it. 0:01:58.240 --> 0:01:59.800 Just be honest that you were trying to get out 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.560 of it. Don't pretend that there was some other reason 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:07.720 that you got out of it. And it is those experiences. 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:12.119 In many ways, a lot of Baby boomers politics were 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.799 either defined or redefined by the impact of the Vietnam War. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.040 So my guests today are Brian Knappenberger. He is the 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.560 man behind the terrific documentary that's all over Netflix right now. 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:30.720 Turning point about Vietnam and John Negroponte, who is of 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:36.480 course a longtime ambassador, mostly in Republican national security circles. 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:40.080 He was in Vietnam from sixty four to sixty eight. 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.840 He was there, and in this interview you'll hear I mean, 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.960 in many ways he kind of still supports the idea. 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.480 You know, he doesn't begrudge the idea of being there 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.359 and still believes there was a righteous cause for going. 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.960 So it's an important counterbalance in this conversation that you're 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.679 going to hear. But look, we get into that sort 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:08.880 of the whole how in many ways Vietnam is sort 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:15.480 of still haunting our politics today. You could argue Vietnam 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:20.840 plus the Iraq War coupled together, right, has now impacted 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:25.799 multiple generations and sort of impacted multiple presidencies and how 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.680 they manage national security and how we make these decisions. 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:33.880 So look, I think it's a no matter what age 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:35.840 group you belong to, I think you're going to enjoy 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:40.040 this conversation. And if you've seen turning point, then you'll 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.080 really enjoy this conversation as sort of an after action 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.560 type of conversation. So look, it's a special that I'm 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.680 dropping because it's kind of standalone. I don't want to 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.880 get any modern politics, you know, stuck to it here. 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:59.800 But it's I think it's it's a fascinating conversation and 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:05.080 I think you'll appreciate it. So enjoy this special extra 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:13.880 edition of the Chuck Podcast this week. Well, today we 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:18.640 have a special treat. As many historians and folks of 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.000 a certain gener a certain age may know, we're coming 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.400 up this is the fiftieth anniversary of the Fall of Saigon. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.280 It's hard to believe Vietnam War, the Vietnam War is 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.520 that far in our past. For so many Americans, it 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.479 does not feel like something that is that far in 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.920 our past. And yet here I am in my fifties, 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.680 and I was born during the Vietnam War, and I 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.320 think one of my guests, Brian Nappenberger, was also born 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.520 during the Vietnam four We're also joined by a former 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:52.400 ambassador to Vietnam for the United States, John Negroponte, who 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.440 was ambassador who was in Sigon for four years sixty 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:01.719 four to sixty eight. So Brian Appenberger is the documentarian 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.920 behind a terrific five part series about the Vietnam War 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.039 on Netflix. By the time you're hearing this, I hope 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.960 you've already been watching at least one, possibly two episodes. 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.400 They're terrific, and it's an attempt to tackle the war 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.720 from all sorts of angles during the moment itself, the 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.280 cultural impact, the political impact. But I will shut up 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.239 here a minute. Brian, you describe what you're hoping people 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.800 get out of Turning Point and fifty years later as 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:36.120 an historian, where Vietnam was sort of you know, I 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.800 always felt like I was culturally and politically brought up 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.320 in response to the Vietnam War in my household. I'm 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:44.599 sure you felt that way too. We didn't experience it. 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:50.960 So I'm constantly consuming scholarship on Vietnam to just understand 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.160 how my dad's brain worked. And he's no longer with us, 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.520 but he was of that era. I have this distinct 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:02.520 memory after he died of finding this file folder. He 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:07.920 didn't have to go, but he had kept meticulous records 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.920 of all of his deferments, and then when his lottery 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.200 number happened to be high, everything it took he And 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.960 that's why I've never accepted a politician who says they're 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.039 not sure how they got out of Vietnam. I'm like, 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.159 oh yeah. My dad, who was no rich guy or anything. 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:27.599 He kept meticulous notes about his status. But for me, 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:29.560 it was all about not being there. That was always 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:31.840 the goal of people you were there, having not having 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.480 a gone. Or my uncle who immediately threw his uniform 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.640 away when he came back to the States after having 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:39.960 served and to this day doesn't like talking about it. 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.920 So what what what do you hope people take away 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:45.920 from Turning Points. 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:51.040 Well, it's you know, I had a very similar experience 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.080 to you in that, you know, my father was in 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.640 Vietnam when when I was born, and you know, through 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.840 my early childhood, I was trying to piece together what 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.680 that war was about and what it meant. And I 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.960 think that created creation of this series, you know, is 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.200 really about a belief that the Vietnam War had this 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.960 lasting impact on us, and that that's an impact that 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.760 we're very much still feeling that the America that existed 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.640 before the United States engaged militarily in Vietnam was just 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:25.080 a radically different country than the America that emerged after 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.520 our troops came home, and that America, that new America, 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:31.600 you know, really contain the roots of a lot of 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.280 what plagues our society today or is a part of 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:40.360 our society today. Widespread alienation, deep cynicism, this profound distrust 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.680 in government. That it seemed to show a kind of 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.040 breakdown in civic institutions, and it made us question our 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.640 role in the world. You know, how should the US 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.040 intervene militarily and international conflicts? 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.080 You know, the nineteen fifties in some way was almost 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.280 peak trust, right, there was like in some ways, at 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:00.840 least for certain Americans. I mean, I don't want to 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.040 sit here, and there was there was African Americans did 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.000 not have peak trust in the in the government in 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.840 the nineteen fifties, I want to acknowledge that, but there 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.920 was a But among white Americans there was, there was 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:17.080 real trust of the government. Eisenhower was a hero. So 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.320 here here was the president that saved the you know, 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.440 the general that saved the world, who was America's president. 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.240 So that added to the level of trust. And then 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.440 just a rapid fire series of events, right the Kennedy 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:36.400 assassination escalation into Vietnam Watergate. I might add in the 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.000 the decision to pardon the draft dodgers, but I want 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.000 to get into that a little bit later. And in 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:43.760 some ways you're right it was sort of this the 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.160 cynicism of today, its roots are in are in this 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:48.319 decision to go to Vietnam. 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:50.959 Yeah, I think so. I mean I think in your 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.240 intro you even mentioned that the war does not feel 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:55.679 like it's in our past, and it doesn't. And this 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:57.360 is this is one of the ways, I mean, you. 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.680 Get it hunted both Iraq wars. Yes, yeah, yeah, right, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.000 like it haunted both Iraq wars, I'd argue, yeah, yeah. 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:06.200 Way, yeah. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:07.800 And I think the Nixon example is interesting. I mean 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.880 you get into these deep, you know, divisions that it 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.760 exposes in America and those lessons of you know, here's 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.640 a president found to be backing a break in at 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:20.280 the offices of a political opponent, you know, actively lying 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.280 to the American people, this imperial president who said things 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.280 like if the president does it, that it's not illegal. Right, 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.720 he resigns in disgrace before he's impeached. But you know, 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:35.640 you can't help but draw parallels to our current political environment. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.600 So what was I mean, you know, what I'm fascinated 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:45.840 with this documentary for you is that you've done documentaries 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.280 where you've lived the experience that you're making the history 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.520 about nine to eleven. Arguably in the Cold War, right, 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.760 this is something that you didn't really live, right, you 0:09:55.800 --> 0:10:00.960 had to go back and understand it. Yeah, through what lens? 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:05.199 Do you feel like you made the Vietnam War this documentary? 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:05.360 Right? 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:06.960 Through what lens do you feel like you used to 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:07.920 make this documentary? 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.160 Yeah? I think it's I think it's you know, I've 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.960 heard so much about it and I think it does 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.120 go back to my father's servant servy there. I think, 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:20.920 you know, we it was hearing stories slowly over the year. 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.680 He was clearly somebody who fit into that category of 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.200 not really wanting to talk about it too much. It 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.040 would come out in these very sort of kind of 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.360 it was just as dramatic sort of ways. He would 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.840 sort of tell me a story or something. And so 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.400 you're you're in this, you're almost a solving a mystery. 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:40.200 What happened? 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:40.560 You know? 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.520 Why is there this much pain still for different people 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:46.760 around Vietnam? As you start to talk to other people, 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.920 Why is there so much uncertainty about it, and also 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.480 just what happened? What are the events of the war. 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.920 This is something I don't think most people really know. 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:56.800 I don't think we ever talked about the war itself. 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:58.960 It's always about the fallout of the war, right, It's 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.200 about what happened to those who couldn't didn't want to serve, 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.720 versus who were forced to serve. You're right, we don't 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.720 actually talk about what happened on the ground as much. 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:10.560 But I want to tap into something else you and 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:15.760 I both stumbled into. And I'll be very curious what 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.280 Ambassador Negroponte thinks of the following ways that both you 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.280 and I lived. Both of our fathers lived this experience. 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:28.040 My father's move from the Democratic Party of the Republican 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:35.840 Party was anger at LBJ over Vietnam. And look, personal 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.360 events always dictate these things. His best friend, my dad 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.679 had not the easiest childhood, and I'll just leave it 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:43.760 at that, but his best friend, that sort of was 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.520 his stabilizing force in childhood, got killed in a training 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.080 basically on his way to being Sentinam. He was drafted 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.760 and in the training mission died there. And you know, 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.480 I now realize my dad never got over losing him, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.920 so for him, he blamed Johnson and it was it 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.880 was visceral. It was visceral. You said your father had 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.920 that same feeling towards Nixon, and it's like, I run 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.600 into this. You either are angry at Nixon or you're 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:14.439 angry at Johnson. 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:17.080 Yeah. 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.719 Absolutely, I mean this, this, this was And why does 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:25.160 the Vietnam War create such a deep it's such deep 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:26.280 feelings in everybody. 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.520 It is personalizing it, right, Yeah, I personalize it so much. 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.400 I think it's because both you know, people aren't lost 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.360 losses like your like your father experienced. This hit people 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.840 personally with people that they knew, friends, brothers. But it 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.800 was also something that's bigger, right, who are we as 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.840 a country? There was something about the Vietnam War that 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.040 shifted our identity of who we are and how we 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:53.959 related to the world and our presence and our kind 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.440 of leadership in the world. And that's the thing that 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.360 people have a hard time kind of dealing with and 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.080 struggle and have tried to answer since then, some of 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.120 the questions that came up. So I think it's both 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.960 things as a personal but it's also who are we 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:08.760 as a country? 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.520 Right? Ambassador. You're hearing this, and I know you've you've 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:17.400 gone through this so many times, but I'm fascinated to 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.720 know what you thought the war, what was going on 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.200 in nineteen sixty four when you were there, when, what 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.240 you were leaving when you left in sixty eight, and 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.200 what you feared you left. 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:30.040 Yeah. 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:36.200 First, but let me say just a small correction, Chuck. 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.960 You said I'd been ambassador at Vietnam. I've been an 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.319 ambassador five times, but not to Vietnam. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.680 And I got there when I got there when I 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:46.800 was twenty four years old. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.600 When I got there in nineteen sixty four, after studying 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:56.200 Vietnamese in Washington for a number of months, we had 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:02.479 about at twenty thousand trainers, no people who were designated 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:03.800 as combat troops. 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.240 Let me back you up a match. You were mainly 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:11.040 a quick language school. Where were you working and what 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.120 was the what did you think your mission was that 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:13.600 you had to take? 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.480 Well, Line was a career Foreign Service officer and I 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.840 started my career in nineteen sixty nineteen sixty. A fall 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.840 of nineteen sixty, I'd had an assignment to Hong Kong. 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.480 I went back to Washington and they soon because things 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.200 were hoting up in Vietnam, asked me to take a 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.440 forty four week It wasn't so short, forty four week 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:36.520 language training courts. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.360 I went out there to. 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.240 The political section of the US Embassy in Saigon as 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:47.000 a so called provincial reporter, and I did a lot 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:51.040 things like what a journalist would do. I was assigned 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.240 to cover six different provinces in South Vietnam. There was 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.320 forty two of them in all, six or seven. Now, 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:06.400 we go out every week. I'd collect information on the economic, political, diplomatic, security, military, 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.120 et cetera situation in the field that I'd come back 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.120 the next week and write up my reports, get my 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:13.280 laundry done and all of that. 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.080 We didn't have internet and all of that. 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.160 You know that, we didn't have very good telephones either, 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.840 so you had to actually physically come back to the 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.480 embassy and rite up telegrams and so forth. 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.040 So that's what I came to. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.920 The North Vietnamese had not yet starting to to send 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:37.800 regular North Vietnamese Army troops into South Vietnam. I got 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.560 there in May of sixty four, the first time we 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.880 detected North Vietamese troops in South Vietnam as part of 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.560 their decision to escalate the situation in the South. Their 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:53.960 tactics so far had not succeeded in causing South Vietnam 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:58.320 to fall into their Communist hands, so they decided to 0:15:58.400 --> 0:15:59.600 send their army and we. 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.520 Capt sued a couple of their people. 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:06.440 We are the Southamese military, actually in about June of 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:11.560 nineteen sixty four, and so that was the beginning of 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:18.320 the establishment of a large North Vietnamese presence in the South, 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.440 which at the end of the war in seventy five, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.640 there was something like fourteen divisions of North Vietnamese troops 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.040 and stuff Vietnam. So what starts as a guerrilla war 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:35.720 ends up really as a conventional military defeat of Saigon 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.280 by the North Vietnamese army. So this stuff about it 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.680 being a guerrilla war, well, it was during a certain phase, 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.800 but basically the North Vietnamese were committing committed to throwing 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.200 whatever they had into it to achieve their ultimate objective, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.040 which was the reunification of the country. Did you owe 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.560 I was there during that early stage of conten Yeah. 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.200 Did you owe view? It was the conventional wisdom at 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:08.160 the time among those people you reported to that essentially 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.479 we were in a proxy war with China or a 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:13.959 proxy war with the Soviets here or was it not 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:14.880 seen as that yet? 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.480 No, only was seen as part of the Cold War. 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:22.200 It was a regional conflict in a Cold War context. 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.560 And just like in Korea, where there had been a 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.520 dividing line between North and South Korea and became the 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.880 South Korea's defense, I think we saw it as a 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:37.240 way of dealing with a form of North Vietnamese aggression. 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.879 It got all bollocked up in the kind of politics 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:45.480 and psychology that the two of you were discussing earlier. 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.040 But I mean, I think initially we saw it as 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:54.679 a fairly straightforward situation that the guys, the people I 0:17:54.760 --> 0:18:00.439 worked for, Henry Cabot, Lodge, Ellsworth Bunker, William Westmoreland General, 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.080 the commanding General, they had grown up in the nineteen 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.080 twenties and thirties. They saw this as sort of like 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:14.560 a Munich, like a you know, they're responding to no appeasementression. 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.320 Don't make that mistake, right, it does, boy, that's right fighting. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.600 That's the old fighting the last war. So this is yeah, 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:22.920 caught fighting the last war. 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.200 Everybody is always fighting the last war. I mean that's 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:30.719 the way wars go. I think you guys overplay in 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:35.000 your discussion the lasting impact of Vietnam, because I think 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.399 we'd finally got We had what we called the Vietnam syndrome, 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.639 and for a number of years after that, and I 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.040 went on to many different jobs. In fact, I was 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.400 Henry Kissinger's victor for Vietnam when he negotiated the peace 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.840 agreement and h and I was with Bush and Reagan 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.440 and Bush later on, we sort of finally got over 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:59.520 the Vietnam syndrome, I would say, when Bush decided to, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:05.040 you know, invade Panama and get rid of Norriega, replaced Norjega, 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:09.600 and then he went into the first Iraq War, right 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.399 the Kuwait War, And at that point I think we 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.000 had finally at least gotten over the aspect of the 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.840 Vietnam syndrome that said, don't send you that's true. 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:24.200 Do you think we actually it's It's interesting. I tend 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.480 to agree that we're probably over the Vietnam hangover when 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.560 it comes to the impact on our politics and the 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:32.639 military in fact, but I would argue that we're in 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.919 another one now, and it's the Iraq War. Like I 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.840 think the second Iraq war has probably had a last 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:44.240 has this impact on our psyche political psyche left and 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.639 right right now? That is very similar to what Vietnam 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.000 did to America in the seventies and eighties. 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.280 Well, I mean I had a lot to do with that. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:59.119 I was at the UN when we passed resolutions. You 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:04.720 accept that, yes, I mean I think partially, partially, But 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.480 I want to identify another trend for you, which I 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.479 don't know whether you've considered. Is it what is it 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:16.640 about these conflicts that we get into them and then 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.760 after having you know, trained a whole generation of people 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.479 to fight the war, to learn the reason why to 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:27.240 be committed to the policy Vietnam. 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:32.240 Afghanistan and now potentially Ukraine. 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.399 Although no boots on the ground in Ukraine, but let's say. 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.960 No, no, and yet we still might pull the plug, right, 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.720 But what is it about this propensity that we have 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.800 to get into these conflicts but not be able to 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.960 think it far enough through to assure our own selves 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:52.960 that we're really going to stay the course. What kind 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.120 of friend are you, or an ally or a supporter 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.879 of somebody if halfway through the deal you decide to 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:05.760 pull the plug. I'm not denying the social consequences that 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:10.000 Vietnam had on people here in this country. But you know, 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.720 in terms of what we did to them, by the 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.440 time the peace talks were over in nineteen seventy two 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:22.560 and early seventy three, our exposure in Vietnam was very limited. 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.560 We had fifty thousand troops, not five hundred thousand, and 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.040 they were relegated entirely to support functions. 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.520 Describing the last year of Afghanistan. By the way, also, 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:34.400 I know, yes. 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.120 Yeah, but I mean that's the truth in Vietnam back 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:41.680 in seventy three. And yet I mean I was Kissinger's 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.639 man on Vietnam at that time. You know, they just 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.440 didn't want to go into the second administration. They didn't 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.480 want to go into the second administration in the second term, 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.679 as Henry used to say, reading battle field reports for 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:57.959 breakfast every morning. They just didn't want it. I mean 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:03.560 Nixon was tired. Yeah, I heard him say it to 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:05.760 Joe and Lie. We went out to see Joe and 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:12.959 Lyons June and with a month earlier, and it was 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:17.679 exactly that. Henry said, we don't want to be leading 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:18.720 battlefield and. 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:27.720 Mhm, I know, in the middle it was a good 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:33.480 your kissing your impersonation. I know it's mandatory, right if 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:34.320 you work for Hendry. 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.640 My favorite impression, My favorite. 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:41.199 Nugget about Henry's impersonation, about Henry's accent is that his 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:42.480 brother didn't have one. 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:44.480 Correct, and he was older. 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.840 Yes, yeah, it was intentional. Arnold. By the way, somebody 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.240 told me, Arnold Schwarzenegger can turn it on and off 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.840 to he was. Yeah, he's been. But Brian, let me 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:57.080 introduce the thesis to respond to the to the ambassador 0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:03.919 on this. Yeah, it's called daily press coverage, daily news coverage. Something. 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:08.320 Korea was more controlled World War two even more controlled. 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:08.680 Right. 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.800 The first war that had no that had sort of 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.879 lost control of the media narrative was Vietnam, right, and 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.399 then arguably right. You know you saw this right in 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:22.199 the in the initial invasion of Iraq, there was an 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:25.800 attempt to manage media in ways within embedding of reporters. 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:30.879 But again, the daily battlefield reports is he just you 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:34.240 can't help but wonder how much daily media coverage has 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:38.480