WEBVTT - Episode 15 - Narcissists, Gaslighting and Red Flags 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:03.520 Falling in love is the best feeling in the world. 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:07.560 You see stars, you feel giddy, But sometimes that makes 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:12.960 you do crazy things, and sometimes that means murder. Just 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:15.880 because the story starts out with once upon a Times 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.600 doesn't mean it ends happily ever after. Welcome to Crazy 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.920 and Love, a production of Katie Studios and I Heart Radio. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.560 Today's guests are true crime producers Stephanie Leidecker and Amy Palaco. 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.080 Amy's an investigative journalist and divorce coach who penned a 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.879 piece on The Tinder Swindler for NBC News based on 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:46.559 the same documentary episode fifteen Narcissists, gas Lighting, and Red Flags. 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:53.560 This week is a bit of a departure for us. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.160 While the story we're highlighting doesn't end in a murder, 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.800 there are many similar themes that run through the cases 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.920 usually cover. We're exploring the story behind Netflix's hot documentary 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:10.080 The Tinder Swindler. It's a story of love gone very wrong. 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:13.560 For those who have not seen the doc here's a 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:19.000 brief synopsis taken from Amy's article. The Tinder Swindler highlights 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.880 exactly how the hopeful quest for finding love online can 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.240 turn into a treacherous game The documentary tells the story 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.840 of alleged international con man Simon Hayute a k a. 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:36.200 Simon Levayev and the countless woman who say you ripped 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:40.039 them off. With the help of journalists, his alleged victims 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:44.400 were able to track him down and alert the authorities. Haut, 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.080 who has never been charged in connection with Netflix's allegations, 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.400 might just have made off with millions of stolen dollars. 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.520 That being said, he fortunately has been convicted of defrauding 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:04.200 other victims. Here's Stephanie. We're so happy to have you 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.480 here because we talked about this quite a bit and 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:08.680 it's really kind of where the conceit for crazy and 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.480 love comes from, trying to look back and gleaming in retrospect. 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.120 What can the rest of us take from a story 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.440 that ends so tragic. You know, these are extreme cases, 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.239 but this stuff affects everyone every day. And you know, 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.040 when we talk about online dating, listen, I know many 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:29.880 couples who have met online and have had incredibly successful relationships. 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.560 So in lots of ways, it's the only way people 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.440 are dating right now and meaning people. So we're not 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.799 bashing on that by any means. However, you know that 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:43.480 The Tinder Swindler hits such a note culturally. Obviously, it's 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.880 trending as number one on Netflix right now. Why do 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.760 you think everybody is so interested in the Tinder Swindler 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.160 and how did you get started with it? I think 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:56.280 it's hitting a cultural nerve because I think a lot 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.480 of women like me can empathize with these women because 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.840 we've been through this in some form before. Well, I'm 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.280 a journalist and I help women take their power back 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.920 during and after a divorce or a toxic relationship. We 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.560 have a record number of people dating online of Internet 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:19.280 users are dating online, so there is that built in interest, right, 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.320 people have skin in the game. And you know, finally, 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.840 I think this brings up a larger cultural debate that 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:31.800 transcends online dating and overlaps with domestic abuse as well, 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:34.520 and I know that's something you cover a lot on 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.680 this podcast. This These may seem to be disparate topics, 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.640 but they're not in reading your article and watching the 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.160 documentary as well. I thought the statistic that you shared 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:51.720 in your article was staggering. Survey that said most people 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:56.040 who are online daters, you know, they maybe can create 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.800 some falsehoods and when really asked about it, those falsehoods 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:06.200 and fluted name location appearance like there's literally nothing left, 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.520 what else could you possibly be looking for? But the 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.120 most shocking thing I think is that more than half 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:17.440 of respondents, fifty seven percent, admitted that they lied on there. 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.240 And here's the thing. I don't mean to demonize men. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.800 We know that women lie out there too, but these 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.920 stats show that sixty seven percent of that group that lie, 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.280 we're married men. So they're on a dating site as 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:36.080 married people and lying about it is like tier one terrible. 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:40.440 Sometimes outsiders say why didn't she leave? You know, when 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.520 it takes the average victims seven times to leave their 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:49.280 viewser Right, there are emotions fear, mainly financial considerations. Who 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:53.480 is to blame the liar, the perpetrator, and the alleged 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:57.839 criminal period, Right, So I reject all the victim shaming 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.200 in these situations. I think it's a cop out. Mean, 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.719 let's be better humans and stop the abusers and manipulators 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.800 and hold them accountable. Well that's the double edged sword 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.640 because on the one hand, if you're going online to 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.400 find love, you know, the number one goal would be 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.680 that you're vulnerable and authentic and you're putting yourself out 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.680 there and you're stretching your own boundaries and maybe this 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:20.960 is outside your comfort zone. But in the spirit of 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.479 finding love, you're going to go for it. That's a 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.520 good thing. However, that also could make you the perfect 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.960 target for someone who is up to bad behavior. Is 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:34.479 that accurate? Absolutely, that is definitely the case. You know, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.240 first of all, it's biological to some degree. You know, 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:42.920 a Harvard professor said, love turns on that neurotransmitter dope amine, 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.400 which is known to stimulate the brain's pleasure centers. Right 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.520 then there's a drop in serotonin. You have these crazy 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:54.400 kind of urgent infatuation feelings. And then during the first 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.080 love year, serotonin gradually goes down and it's more of 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:02.200 this like moderate mature as it's called. And then also, yes, 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:05.520 we're being gas lit simply by the fact that we're 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.359 also seeing in all of these Disney movies that you know, 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.520 love is something to conquer and to fight for, and 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:13.440 somebody has to fight for you when you were going 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.360 to get swept away. And first off, while the fighting 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.400 it shouldn't be this saving journey. That's exactly right, because 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.400 if you think about it, I mean, think about Cinderella, 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.320 all right, we all read that, watched the movie. You know, 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.760 the prince rescues her against the odds. The same with 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.960 Snow White and Sleeping Beauty. And some people have gone 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.440 so far as to say Disney ruined our love lives. Right. Um, 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:40.000 not bashing Walt Disney here, but it was a Harvard professor, 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:43.159 Robert Epstein, who actually wrote an article about this, saying, 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:47.800 you know, these glamorizing fairy tales, you know, lead to 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:52.960 unrealistic expectations. And um, we think to ourselves when we 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.400 get into a relationship that has some of those characteristics, 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.320 and you know, it's easy for someone on the outside 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.760 to say, well that so dramatic. You should have known. Well, 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.800 you think to yourself, well, if this is the one, 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.279 this is how it's supposed to be, right, So the 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:14.680 stakes are very high, the stakes are too high almost Well, 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.440 I think it's several factors. One is the biology of it, right, 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.760 that takes over and that dopamine high and kind of 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:26.280 can cloud your your judgment. Right. Two or these cultural 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.120 things where we're told this is how it's supposed to be, 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.560 you know, and you feel like you're starring in your 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.960 own fairy tale, and if you've had a trail of 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.120 bad relationships, you kind of feel like the universe owes 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.000 that to you, like, Oh, it's finally happening to me. 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.720 They told me to wait, and I waited, right, So 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.320 here he is or she is right, So I think 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.160 I think it's that. And then also the third part 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:55.280 is that these predators and manipulators are so good at 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.160 what they do. You know, if you could be the 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.360 most highly educated, I mean, I'm a former investigative reporter, 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.200 I have an Ivy League degree from Columbia Journalism School. 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:10.440 I've uncovered crime, scams, corruption, you know, I think I'm 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:13.920 somewhat with it, right, and I have fallen for some 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.920 of these people, right, So I really like to bust 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.000 that myth that it's someone down now who gets themselves 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.920 in a dangerous situation, which you talk about a lot 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.160 on your podcast. It all starts very magical, you know, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.440 in some scenarios. You know you had mentioned gaslighting. We 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:35.679 talked about that word a lot, and it has been 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.200 coming up quite a bit even on the podcast. What 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:44.760 is the actual definition of gas lighting? It's when someone 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.000 is telling you something's not true and you know that 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.080 it is. Um It's based on a movie called Gaslight 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:56.400 where the husband was tormenting his wife and telling her 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:01.040 that these actual gas lights in their home, we're not flickering, 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.000 and she said, they're flickering. They are and he said, 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.360 oh no, they're not. Oh no they're not, and he 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.959 was out too. You know, make her insane, And that's 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.439 what this does. And that's one of my top five 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.120 you know, red flags to look out for when dating, 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:21.240 you know, when you looking for these narcissistic types who 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.720 are predatory. And before we even get into that list, 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.280 can you give us your definition of and it doesn't 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:29.880 have to be by the book, but just you know, 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.959 we also hear the word narcissism a lot. It gets 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.320 used a lot, I'm sure out of context sometimes, but 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:42.079 it's a real thing, which really does make a narcissist. Well, 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:43.880 first of all, I have to say, of course, I 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.680 am not diagnosing anyone, but you know, I've certainly been 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.640 with people who exhibit those traits and had counselors tell 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.520 me they believed that this person was a narcissist or 0:09:53.520 --> 0:10:00.120 a sociopath. And um, basically one of the defining characteristics 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.480 is a lack of empathy. You know, and and that 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.600 is a red flag as well, that this person you 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.040 know really doesn't care about other people. They're really out 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:15.960 for themselves, and you can you know, really be a 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:19.960 detective and look for that. Um. There are many other 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:24.959 characteristics of it, but they basically see the world as 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.400 a game and a chess game. All of the behavior, 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.960 the crazy, the roller poster ride of the relationship all 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.599 makes sense when you realize they were doing what was 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:40.880 best for them all along and pretending that they cared 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.840 for you and we're looking out for you. So they're 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:49.480 presenting themselves one way really to meet all of your 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.400 expectations from the jump. That could be male or female, right, 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.240 it often gets thrown around for men, but women are 0:10:56.280 --> 0:11:00.360 just as capable of being narcissists, right, absolutely, absolutely, And 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:05.040 what you are talking about is the number one red flag, 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.160 which is love bombing, you know, and that goes hand 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.000 in hand with these romantic fairy tales we're talking about. Right, 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:17.200 when someone comes on fast and strong, and you know, 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.600 it seems like it's out of a movie, and uh, 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.920 you know, they're whining and dining you, they're buying you things, 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.920 they're the perfect person. You know, it's hard to decipher 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.400 in the beginning. I have to say, though, you know, 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:32.840 you could have a good person who does that and 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.120 then one who doesn't. And so the biggest thing really 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.640 is to let it play out. Don't jump right into it. 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:42.720 You can appreciate it, but you know, kind of keep 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:48.600 a healthy distance, and time will will show. These types 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.760 cannot wear the mask forever. Look at the alleged you 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.840 know Tinder Swindler, right when when his back was against 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.160 the wall, he went from being you know, prince charming 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:02.120 to you know, really nasty. I love you has happened 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.280 very quickly. And again all of those things are lovely. 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.480 But in the same article they said that you know, 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.480 no man or woman will really not love you deeply 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.400 if in fact you're their first love and you meet 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.920 them on a whim, and it's meant to be. If 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.000 you sort of slow the brakes and give it some time, 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.200 your true love is not gonna not like you because 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.359 you're playing a little harder to get. In fact, that's healthy. 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.200 But they can show their true colors. Yes, with the 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:34.360 weight staff people who they cannot benefit from, and they 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:42.200 don't have an inherent interest in impressing or love bombing either. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:44.960 So when when they act a certain way with them, 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.800 it is a telltale sign of who they really are. 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.040 And often people say at the end of the relationship, 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.160 that's who they really are, because when the mask comes 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.960 off you challenge them or you are leaving, they might 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:02.480 beg and try to love bombing and and we're going 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:04.800 to take a quick break. We'll be back in just 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:22.960 a moment. So a narcissist versus a sociopath, what are 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.120 the key differences there? Because they often get lumped together. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.200 There's a spectrum for narcissism, right, experts say, we're all 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.360 narcissistic to some degree. Right, it's when it gets into 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:37.000 those dangerous levels that it becomes what clinicians can diagnose 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.520 as mp D or narcissistic personality disorder. Right. A sociopath 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:46.680 is someone who has antisocial characteristics in addition to like 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:51.360 the narcissistic characteristics. Sometimes, you know, a narcissist is just 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:55.920 someone who is kind of into self aggrandizement, you know, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:00.280 material things, being the loud life of the party per person, 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:05.000 and and doesn't have more of the antisocial sociopathic trades. Right, 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:10.280 So it's always on a spectrum. They will test you 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.400 in a way. At the beginning of a relationship, it's 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.800 kind of like a trial balloon, like they might do 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.319 something or push one of your boundaries, and once they 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.320 see that you are malleable in that way, those tests 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.320 and those boundaries will keep getting pushed and pushed and pushed, 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:31.480 like the you know, alleged victims of the Tinder swindler. Right. 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:33.360 You know it's easy for someone to say, well, I 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.040 would never give that money. But you know, they started 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.680 with a little something, and then it grew, and then 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.440 it grew, and then it grew. And we're taught that 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.520 a good partner is supportive understanding what if this was 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.920 happening to me, wouldn't I want him to help me? Right? 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.960 And that's all going through their minds, which I think 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:58.400 is understandable. You know what it is all about power, right, 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.840 whether it's an online dating scam like this, or its 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:07.760 domestic abuse, you know, it's it's a power dynamic. And 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:12.960 what these types try to do is maintain power over 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.960 their partner. It is not an equal playing field, it 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:20.960 is not an equal relationship because they are constantly maneuvering 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.960 to keep themselves in the power position. And you know, 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.880 in this case, the alleged Tinder Swindler. You know, he 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.400 he used this crazy story of being in peril and 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:36.920 needing money, but he was manipulating these alleged victims all 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.240 the time. And it's almost as though certain narcissists are 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.720 almost grooming women from the start. And that's why there's 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.840 such crossover between this story the Tinder Swindler, and the 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.200 many others along with it. Along with you know, normally 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.640 we have cases that you know, end in death, but 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.640 the beginning of those cases often start with the exact 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.640 same grooming process us you're talking about. So it's important 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:04.680 that we all listen up. But I mean, look at 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.920 Dirty John right that story, it was the same thing. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.920 You know, you have the love bombing, you have the 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:16.680 gas lighting, you have another red flag future faking, the 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.320 you know, Tinder Swindler allegedly did this too, right, like, oh, 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.480 I see you as the mother of my children and 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.400 all these things that we're gonna live here and all 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.520 of these things. Um, that's very intoxicating. We all want that. 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.440 They also don't respect boundaries, you know, they keep pushing them. 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.240 They always find a way to get what they want right. 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.600 And then you know, lastly, which really is the number 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.400 one thing. The lack of empathy. You know, it's a 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:50.280 tell tale sign um when they don't care about other 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:55.440 people and they don't have friends, like long term friendships. Also, Oh, 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.160 that's a big one. That's a huge tell and something 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.960 that's a commonality we see a lot and perpetrators in 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:05.320 the crimes that we cover, is this mysterious non life 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.600 they apparently ever had, you know, they don't have long 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.199 term friendships oftentimes. That's so interesting. So those are the 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.480 top five. You know, as you were talking earlier about 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.480 the science of it, if somebody is falling in love 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.480 or is being loved bombed and the dopamine increases, I 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.680 would imagine if you're a narcissist and you lack empathy, 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.879 that must be very intoxicating as well. To also know 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.119 that you're kind of giving a rush to somebody and 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.919 maybe for that mere moment you get the same rush 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.320 and then you're onto the next, you know, because that's 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.520 so fleeting. Yeah, I could see how that is so dangerous. There. 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:43.600 There's a term used by many people and experts and 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.520 clinicians and narcissism is that they're really looking for fuel, right, 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.840 and when you think about it that way. They're getting 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.000 fuel for them from the relationship, but when the relationship ends, 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.560 they're also still getting it. Every bad interaction, whether it's 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.399 a fight over children or money or whatever going on, 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.760 they're still getting fuel from it. If you engage, right, 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.600 that is excitement and power to them. Uh, they're empty 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.560 in many ways, and that's what bills them up because 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.480 at their core, they're really very insecure people with this 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.920 you know, shell and mask of bravado, but really deep 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.679 down they need this fuel in order to feel important. 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.359 And you know, that's why there's something called the gray 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:30.199 rock method where you you become like a rock or 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.400 a stone and you don't react, and then you give 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.639 them no fuel, and that's when they don't they you know, go, 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.640 they go find another source. So if you feel as 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.520 though you're in a situation with a narcissist, or someone's 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.760 gaslighting you, or you've been love bombed, or someone's calling 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:51.040 their ex crazy and now you're realizing this person's crazy 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.359 making you should just cut all contact off and the 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.600 less you give, that's the only real cure, right right, 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.520 And they like to kind of heap back up forms 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:06.680 of supply for this fuel, so they will keep xces 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.040 on deck. They may say, well, let's still be friends, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.000 and then they think they can call you whatever, block 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.600 and any contact. It's only going to lead to more 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:19.760 emotional torment for you. Look for these red flabs, look 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.320 for these warning signs that you are being taken advantage 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.960 of a predator. And that's why I'm writing the book 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:30.199 I am because I feel so passionately that women need 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.399 to be educated in this. We see that time and 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.080 time again, not just on this podcast, but on any 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:40.159 of the true crime projects we're working on, where a 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.840 family member or somebody may come in and say, look, 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:46.159 you're not seeing clearly right now. You have loved goggles on, 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.840 and this guy is dangerous. You know. Immediately, as a 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.679 sign of solidarity to their partner, they cut the family 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.320 out or cut the friends out. That's a big piece 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.280 we see two isolating a potential victim or tar get 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.600 is you know, game on. If you don't have any 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.080 friends and family to step in and sort of raise 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.600 their hands and say red flag central over here, lose 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.240 this person, guy or girl, then you're sort of left 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.159 to your own devices. And if you're being gaslight the 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:19.280 entire time, making yourself, you know, being made to feel 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:21.280 that your air quotes crazy. That's why that word is 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.320 so dangerous, and I'm so glad you bring that up. 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.200 The word crazy, which is you know, in part why 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.480 we chose it for this title, because it's such a 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.560 word that is thrown away by people up my ex 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.680 as just crazy, and chances are that's probably not true. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.120 The first question we should ask is what drove them crazy? 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.719 And so people get embarrassed to say, oh, my goodness, 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.560 I was pushed to the edge, and I'm too embarrassed 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.440 to ask for help. At this point, I'm in over 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.720 my head and next thing you know, you're in either 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.879 a con situation or far worse. You know, you're a 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.639 victim of murder. So where I live in Connecticut, we 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.800 have a new law that took effect October for twenty 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:04.480 anny one, and it's called Jennifer's Law Jennifer's plural. Maybe 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:06.720 some of you have heard of the Jennifer Doulo's case. 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.280 He was a woman in New Kine in Connecticut, we 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:14.639 believe was murdered by her strange husband, who later killed himself. 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:18.000 And there was another Jennifer in Connecticut who also went 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:23.800 through Magnano went through domestic abuse and was murdered. So 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:26.800 it's named for these two women. And what it basically 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:32.200 does is expands domestic abuse laws to include coercive control. 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.520 So what is coercive control. It doesn't have to be physical. 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.679 It can be emotional abuse, Financial abuse is something that 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.239 is seen a lot um. It can be you know, 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:52.119 sexual abuse, right, intimidation withholding basic needs from someone, um 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:57.080 and resources. So all of those things are makeup coercive control. 0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:59.560 It's just starting to be used in our courts here. 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.399 We're hoping that other states will follow, and this is 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.800 something that the UK has actually lead on. You know, 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.520 a lot of the coercive control experts I have talked 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:12.119 to here and interviewed for many articles I've done for 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:16.760 Miss magazine and other outlets about this say that all 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:21.760 abuse starts with some form of narcissism. So it really 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:26.080 ties into everything you talk about on your podcast because 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.199 these violent situations and these murders we hear about that 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:36.720 our domestic violence situations start with a power and control 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:41.000 dynamic at their core. Certainly, if you're in a situation 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.760 you fear that maybe nobody will believe you, or that's 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:48.639 not enough abuse to constitute help. And I'm thankful that 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.040 you're bringing that to everyone's attention because it's that's stage one, 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:54.959 get the help. That's exactly the case. And you know, 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:58.840 in in family court situations and domestic violence situations, there's 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.800 been this history of say, oh, she's just being emotional, 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:03.320 or we don't want to get into any of the 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.640 emotional stuff. I mean, that doesn't matter. So what this 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:11.479 law and this movement that's starting now says is, yes, 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:14.840 what that does matter. You know, that really does matter, 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:19.480 and that ties back to online dating and privatory practices. 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:25.080 It does matter if you're deceived online. There are real consequences, 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:29.400 There are real harms to you. And I think more 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:33.160 and more people are validating all victims point of view 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.600 on these issues. Yeah, thank you for shutting it light. 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:40.159 You want to know the red flags. But then sometimes 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:43.800 you can overcorrect and think everybody's you know, just like them. 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:46.040 You know, you're kind of like, are there good people anymore? 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.959 Or they all that? You know. The reason it is 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:53.600 so devastating is it messes with your entire view of 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:57.200 the world and part of the cycle. You know, it's 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.280 the love bombing, which is the idealization phase. And then 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:04.720 the discard phase is not so much always just a 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.639 quick clean discard, you know, them discarding you. It is 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:13.840 a painful process of intermittent behavior where they're nice to 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.480 you and cruel to you. And when they're nice to you, 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:19.159 you want to go back to the fairy tale and 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.520 you want all the nightmare to go away. And that's 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:27.960 a human emotion and it's normal. And but this whole 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:30.800 thing is called cognitive dissonance because you can't kind of 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:33.400 wrap your head around this person you thought was so 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:37.800 amazing and wonderful and had your back. It's the person 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:42.359 out to get you. And um Actually, Cecily in the 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:46.639 documentary says that I didn't know that someone could be 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:49.639 so fucking evil. I think that's why it's so important 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:51.639 that we're even talking about it today, which is a 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:54.560 little off format from a typical episode of Crazy in Love, 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:56.639