Speaker 1: Falling in love is the best feeling in the world.
Speaker 1: You see stars, you feel giddy, But sometimes that makes
Speaker 1: you do crazy things, and sometimes that means murder. Just
Speaker 1: because the story starts out with once upon a Times
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it ends happily ever after. Welcome to Crazy
Speaker 1: and Love, a production of Katie Studios and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Today's guests are true crime producers Stephanie Leidecker and Amy Palaco.
Speaker 1: Amy's an investigative journalist and divorce coach who penned a
Speaker 1: piece on The Tinder Swindler for NBC News based on
Speaker 1: the same documentary episode fifteen Narcissists, gas Lighting, and Red Flags.
Speaker 1: This week is a bit of a departure for us.
Speaker 1: While the story we're highlighting doesn't end in a murder,
Speaker 1: there are many similar themes that run through the cases
Speaker 1: usually cover. We're exploring the story behind Netflix's hot documentary
Speaker 1: The Tinder Swindler. It's a story of love gone very wrong.
Speaker 1: For those who have not seen the doc here's a
Speaker 1: brief synopsis taken from Amy's article. The Tinder Swindler highlights
Speaker 1: exactly how the hopeful quest for finding love online can
Speaker 1: turn into a treacherous game The documentary tells the story
Speaker 1: of alleged international con man Simon Hayute a k a.
Speaker 1: Simon Levayev and the countless woman who say you ripped
Speaker 1: them off. With the help of journalists, his alleged victims
Speaker 1: were able to track him down and alert the authorities. Haut,
Speaker 1: who has never been charged in connection with Netflix's allegations,
Speaker 1: might just have made off with millions of stolen dollars.
Speaker 1: That being said, he fortunately has been convicted of defrauding
Speaker 1: other victims. Here's Stephanie. We're so happy to have you
Speaker 1: here because we talked about this quite a bit and
Speaker 1: it's really kind of where the conceit for crazy and
Speaker 1: love comes from, trying to look back and gleaming in retrospect.
Speaker 1: What can the rest of us take from a story
Speaker 1: that ends so tragic. You know, these are extreme cases,
Speaker 1: but this stuff affects everyone every day. And you know,
Speaker 1: when we talk about online dating, listen, I know many
Speaker 1: couples who have met online and have had incredibly successful relationships.
Speaker 1: So in lots of ways, it's the only way people
Speaker 1: are dating right now and meaning people. So we're not
Speaker 1: bashing on that by any means. However, you know that
Speaker 1: The Tinder Swindler hits such a note culturally. Obviously, it's
Speaker 1: trending as number one on Netflix right now. Why do
Speaker 1: you think everybody is so interested in the Tinder Swindler
Speaker 1: and how did you get started with it? I think
Speaker 1: it's hitting a cultural nerve because I think a lot
Speaker 1: of women like me can empathize with these women because
Speaker 1: we've been through this in some form before. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: a journalist and I help women take their power back
Speaker 1: during and after a divorce or a toxic relationship. We
Speaker 1: have a record number of people dating online of Internet
Speaker 1: users are dating online, so there is that built in interest, right,
Speaker 1: people have skin in the game. And you know, finally,
Speaker 1: I think this brings up a larger cultural debate that
Speaker 1: transcends online dating and overlaps with domestic abuse as well,
Speaker 1: and I know that's something you cover a lot on
Speaker 1: this podcast. This These may seem to be disparate topics,
Speaker 1: but they're not in reading your article and watching the
Speaker 1: documentary as well. I thought the statistic that you shared
Speaker 1: in your article was staggering. Survey that said most people
Speaker 1: who are online daters, you know, they maybe can create
Speaker 1: some falsehoods and when really asked about it, those falsehoods
Speaker 1: and fluted name location appearance like there's literally nothing left,
Speaker 1: what else could you possibly be looking for? But the
Speaker 1: most shocking thing I think is that more than half
Speaker 1: of respondents, fifty seven percent, admitted that they lied on there.
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. I don't mean to demonize men.
Speaker 1: We know that women lie out there too, but these
Speaker 1: stats show that sixty seven percent of that group that lie,
Speaker 1: we're married men. So they're on a dating site as
Speaker 1: married people and lying about it is like tier one terrible.
Speaker 1: Sometimes outsiders say why didn't she leave? You know, when
Speaker 1: it takes the average victims seven times to leave their
Speaker 1: viewser Right, there are emotions fear, mainly financial considerations. Who
Speaker 1: is to blame the liar, the perpetrator, and the alleged
Speaker 1: criminal period, Right, So I reject all the victim shaming
Speaker 1: in these situations. I think it's a cop out. Mean,
Speaker 1: let's be better humans and stop the abusers and manipulators
Speaker 1: and hold them accountable. Well that's the double edged sword
Speaker 1: because on the one hand, if you're going online to
Speaker 1: find love, you know, the number one goal would be
Speaker 1: that you're vulnerable and authentic and you're putting yourself out
Speaker 1: there and you're stretching your own boundaries and maybe this
Speaker 1: is outside your comfort zone. But in the spirit of
Speaker 1: finding love, you're going to go for it. That's a
Speaker 1: good thing. However, that also could make you the perfect
Speaker 1: target for someone who is up to bad behavior. Is
Speaker 1: that accurate? Absolutely, that is definitely the case. You know,
Speaker 1: first of all, it's biological to some degree. You know,
Speaker 1: a Harvard professor said, love turns on that neurotransmitter dope amine,
Speaker 1: which is known to stimulate the brain's pleasure centers. Right
Speaker 1: then there's a drop in serotonin. You have these crazy
Speaker 1: kind of urgent infatuation feelings. And then during the first
Speaker 1: love year, serotonin gradually goes down and it's more of
Speaker 1: this like moderate mature as it's called. And then also, yes,
Speaker 1: we're being gas lit simply by the fact that we're
Speaker 1: also seeing in all of these Disney movies that you know,
Speaker 1: love is something to conquer and to fight for, and
Speaker 1: somebody has to fight for you when you were going
Speaker 1: to get swept away. And first off, while the fighting
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be this saving journey. That's exactly right, because
Speaker 1: if you think about it, I mean, think about Cinderella,
Speaker 1: all right, we all read that, watched the movie. You know,
Speaker 1: the prince rescues her against the odds. The same with
Speaker 1: Snow White and Sleeping Beauty. And some people have gone
Speaker 1: so far as to say Disney ruined our love lives. Right. Um,
Speaker 1: not bashing Walt Disney here, but it was a Harvard professor,
Speaker 1: Robert Epstein, who actually wrote an article about this, saying,
Speaker 1: you know, these glamorizing fairy tales, you know, lead to
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations. And um, we think to ourselves when we
Speaker 1: get into a relationship that has some of those characteristics,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's easy for someone on the outside
Speaker 1: to say, well that so dramatic. You should have known. Well,
Speaker 1: you think to yourself, well, if this is the one,
Speaker 1: this is how it's supposed to be, right, So the
Speaker 1: stakes are very high, the stakes are too high almost Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's several factors. One is the biology of it, right,
Speaker 1: that takes over and that dopamine high and kind of
Speaker 1: can cloud your your judgment. Right. Two or these cultural
Speaker 1: things where we're told this is how it's supposed to be,
Speaker 1: you know, and you feel like you're starring in your
Speaker 1: own fairy tale, and if you've had a trail of
Speaker 1: bad relationships, you kind of feel like the universe owes
Speaker 1: that to you, like, Oh, it's finally happening to me.
Speaker 1: They told me to wait, and I waited, right, So
Speaker 1: here he is or she is right, So I think
Speaker 1: I think it's that. And then also the third part
Speaker 1: is that these predators and manipulators are so good at
Speaker 1: what they do. You know, if you could be the
Speaker 1: most highly educated, I mean, I'm a former investigative reporter,
Speaker 1: I have an Ivy League degree from Columbia Journalism School.
Speaker 1: I've uncovered crime, scams, corruption, you know, I think I'm
Speaker 1: somewhat with it, right, and I have fallen for some
Speaker 1: of these people, right, So I really like to bust
Speaker 1: that myth that it's someone down now who gets themselves
Speaker 1: in a dangerous situation, which you talk about a lot
Speaker 1: on your podcast. It all starts very magical, you know,
Speaker 1: in some scenarios. You know you had mentioned gaslighting. We
Speaker 1: talked about that word a lot, and it has been
Speaker 1: coming up quite a bit even on the podcast. What
Speaker 1: is the actual definition of gas lighting? It's when someone
Speaker 1: is telling you something's not true and you know that
Speaker 1: it is. Um It's based on a movie called Gaslight
Speaker 1: where the husband was tormenting his wife and telling her
Speaker 1: that these actual gas lights in their home, we're not flickering,
Speaker 1: and she said, they're flickering. They are and he said,
Speaker 1: oh no, they're not. Oh no they're not, and he
Speaker 1: was out too. You know, make her insane, And that's
Speaker 1: what this does. And that's one of my top five
Speaker 1: you know, red flags to look out for when dating,
Speaker 1: you know, when you looking for these narcissistic types who
Speaker 1: are predatory. And before we even get into that list,
Speaker 1: can you give us your definition of and it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be by the book, but just you know,
Speaker 1: we also hear the word narcissism a lot. It gets
Speaker 1: used a lot, I'm sure out of context sometimes, but
Speaker 1: it's a real thing, which really does make a narcissist. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, I have to say, of course, I
Speaker 1: am not diagnosing anyone, but you know, I've certainly been
Speaker 1: with people who exhibit those traits and had counselors tell
Speaker 1: me they believed that this person was a narcissist or
Speaker 1: a sociopath. And um, basically one of the defining characteristics
Speaker 1: is a lack of empathy. You know, and and that
Speaker 1: is a red flag as well, that this person you
Speaker 1: know really doesn't care about other people. They're really out
Speaker 1: for themselves, and you can you know, really be a
Speaker 1: detective and look for that. Um. There are many other
Speaker 1: characteristics of it, but they basically see the world as
Speaker 1: a game and a chess game. All of the behavior,
Speaker 1: the crazy, the roller poster ride of the relationship all
Speaker 1: makes sense when you realize they were doing what was
Speaker 1: best for them all along and pretending that they cared
Speaker 1: for you and we're looking out for you. So they're
Speaker 1: presenting themselves one way really to meet all of your
Speaker 1: expectations from the jump. That could be male or female, right,
Speaker 1: it often gets thrown around for men, but women are
Speaker 1: just as capable of being narcissists, right, absolutely, absolutely, And
Speaker 1: what you are talking about is the number one red flag,
Speaker 1: which is love bombing, you know, and that goes hand
Speaker 1: in hand with these romantic fairy tales we're talking about. Right,
Speaker 1: when someone comes on fast and strong, and you know,
Speaker 1: it seems like it's out of a movie, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, they're whining and dining you, they're buying you things,
Speaker 1: they're the perfect person. You know, it's hard to decipher
Speaker 1: in the beginning. I have to say, though, you know,
Speaker 1: you could have a good person who does that and
Speaker 1: then one who doesn't. And so the biggest thing really
Speaker 1: is to let it play out. Don't jump right into it.
Speaker 1: You can appreciate it, but you know, kind of keep
Speaker 1: a healthy distance, and time will will show. These types
Speaker 1: cannot wear the mask forever. Look at the alleged you
Speaker 1: know Tinder Swindler, right when when his back was against
Speaker 1: the wall, he went from being you know, prince charming
Speaker 1: to you know, really nasty. I love you has happened
Speaker 1: very quickly. And again all of those things are lovely.
Speaker 1: But in the same article they said that you know,
Speaker 1: no man or woman will really not love you deeply
Speaker 1: if in fact you're their first love and you meet
Speaker 1: them on a whim, and it's meant to be. If
Speaker 1: you sort of slow the brakes and give it some time,
Speaker 1: your true love is not gonna not like you because
Speaker 1: you're playing a little harder to get. In fact, that's healthy.
Speaker 1: But they can show their true colors. Yes, with the
Speaker 1: weight staff people who they cannot benefit from, and they
Speaker 1: don't have an inherent interest in impressing or love bombing either.
Speaker 1: So when when they act a certain way with them,
Speaker 1: it is a telltale sign of who they really are.
Speaker 1: And often people say at the end of the relationship,
Speaker 1: that's who they really are, because when the mask comes
Speaker 1: off you challenge them or you are leaving, they might
Speaker 1: beg and try to love bombing and and we're going
Speaker 1: to take a quick break. We'll be back in just
Speaker 1: a moment. So a narcissist versus a sociopath, what are
Speaker 1: the key differences there? Because they often get lumped together.
Speaker 1: There's a spectrum for narcissism, right, experts say, we're all
Speaker 1: narcissistic to some degree. Right, it's when it gets into
Speaker 1: those dangerous levels that it becomes what clinicians can diagnose
Speaker 1: as mp D or narcissistic personality disorder. Right. A sociopath
Speaker 1: is someone who has antisocial characteristics in addition to like
Speaker 1: the narcissistic characteristics. Sometimes, you know, a narcissist is just
Speaker 1: someone who is kind of into self aggrandizement, you know,
Speaker 1: material things, being the loud life of the party per person,
Speaker 1: and and doesn't have more of the antisocial sociopathic trades. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's always on a spectrum. They will test you
Speaker 1: in a way. At the beginning of a relationship, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like a trial balloon, like they might do
Speaker 1: something or push one of your boundaries, and once they
Speaker 1: see that you are malleable in that way, those tests
Speaker 1: and those boundaries will keep getting pushed and pushed and pushed,
Speaker 1: like the you know, alleged victims of the Tinder swindler. Right.
Speaker 1: You know it's easy for someone to say, well, I
Speaker 1: would never give that money. But you know, they started
Speaker 1: with a little something, and then it grew, and then
Speaker 1: it grew, and then it grew. And we're taught that
Speaker 1: a good partner is supportive understanding what if this was
Speaker 1: happening to me, wouldn't I want him to help me? Right?
Speaker 1: And that's all going through their minds, which I think
Speaker 1: is understandable. You know what it is all about power, right,
Speaker 1: whether it's an online dating scam like this, or its
Speaker 1: domestic abuse, you know, it's it's a power dynamic. And
Speaker 1: what these types try to do is maintain power over
Speaker 1: their partner. It is not an equal playing field, it
Speaker 1: is not an equal relationship because they are constantly maneuvering
Speaker 1: to keep themselves in the power position. And you know,
Speaker 1: in this case, the alleged Tinder Swindler. You know, he
Speaker 1: he used this crazy story of being in peril and
Speaker 1: needing money, but he was manipulating these alleged victims all
Speaker 1: the time. And it's almost as though certain narcissists are
Speaker 1: almost grooming women from the start. And that's why there's
Speaker 1: such crossover between this story the Tinder Swindler, and the
Speaker 1: many others along with it. Along with you know, normally
Speaker 1: we have cases that you know, end in death, but
Speaker 1: the beginning of those cases often start with the exact
Speaker 1: same grooming process us you're talking about. So it's important
Speaker 1: that we all listen up. But I mean, look at
Speaker 1: Dirty John right that story, it was the same thing.
Speaker 1: You know, you have the love bombing, you have the
Speaker 1: gas lighting, you have another red flag future faking, the
Speaker 1: you know, Tinder Swindler allegedly did this too, right, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I see you as the mother of my children and
Speaker 1: all these things that we're gonna live here and all
Speaker 1: of these things. Um, that's very intoxicating. We all want that.
Speaker 1: They also don't respect boundaries, you know, they keep pushing them.
Speaker 1: They always find a way to get what they want right.
Speaker 1: And then you know, lastly, which really is the number
Speaker 1: one thing. The lack of empathy. You know, it's a
Speaker 1: tell tale sign um when they don't care about other
Speaker 1: people and they don't have friends, like long term friendships. Also, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's a big one. That's a huge tell and something
Speaker 1: that's a commonality we see a lot and perpetrators in
Speaker 1: the crimes that we cover, is this mysterious non life
Speaker 1: they apparently ever had, you know, they don't have long
Speaker 1: term friendships oftentimes. That's so interesting. So those are the
Speaker 1: top five. You know, as you were talking earlier about
Speaker 1: the science of it, if somebody is falling in love
Speaker 1: or is being loved bombed and the dopamine increases, I
Speaker 1: would imagine if you're a narcissist and you lack empathy,
Speaker 1: that must be very intoxicating as well. To also know
Speaker 1: that you're kind of giving a rush to somebody and
Speaker 1: maybe for that mere moment you get the same rush
Speaker 1: and then you're onto the next, you know, because that's
Speaker 1: so fleeting. Yeah, I could see how that is so dangerous. There.
Speaker 1: There's a term used by many people and experts and
Speaker 1: clinicians and narcissism is that they're really looking for fuel, right,
Speaker 1: and when you think about it that way. They're getting
Speaker 1: fuel for them from the relationship, but when the relationship ends,
Speaker 1: they're also still getting it. Every bad interaction, whether it's
Speaker 1: a fight over children or money or whatever going on,
Speaker 1: they're still getting fuel from it. If you engage, right,
Speaker 1: that is excitement and power to them. Uh, they're empty
Speaker 1: in many ways, and that's what bills them up because
Speaker 1: at their core, they're really very insecure people with this
Speaker 1: you know, shell and mask of bravado, but really deep
Speaker 1: down they need this fuel in order to feel important.
Speaker 1: And you know, that's why there's something called the gray
Speaker 1: rock method where you you become like a rock or
Speaker 1: a stone and you don't react, and then you give
Speaker 1: them no fuel, and that's when they don't they you know, go,
Speaker 1: they go find another source. So if you feel as
Speaker 1: though you're in a situation with a narcissist, or someone's
Speaker 1: gaslighting you, or you've been love bombed, or someone's calling
Speaker 1: their ex crazy and now you're realizing this person's crazy
Speaker 1: making you should just cut all contact off and the
Speaker 1: less you give, that's the only real cure, right right,
Speaker 1: And they like to kind of heap back up forms
Speaker 1: of supply for this fuel, so they will keep xces
Speaker 1: on deck. They may say, well, let's still be friends,
Speaker 1: and then they think they can call you whatever, block
Speaker 1: and any contact. It's only going to lead to more
Speaker 1: emotional torment for you. Look for these red flabs, look
Speaker 1: for these warning signs that you are being taken advantage
Speaker 1: of a predator. And that's why I'm writing the book
Speaker 1: I am because I feel so passionately that women need
Speaker 1: to be educated in this. We see that time and
Speaker 1: time again, not just on this podcast, but on any
Speaker 1: of the true crime projects we're working on, where a
Speaker 1: family member or somebody may come in and say, look,
Speaker 1: you're not seeing clearly right now. You have loved goggles on,
Speaker 1: and this guy is dangerous. You know. Immediately, as a
Speaker 1: sign of solidarity to their partner, they cut the family
Speaker 1: out or cut the friends out. That's a big piece
Speaker 1: we see two isolating a potential victim or tar get
Speaker 1: is you know, game on. If you don't have any
Speaker 1: friends and family to step in and sort of raise
Speaker 1: their hands and say red flag central over here, lose
Speaker 1: this person, guy or girl, then you're sort of left
Speaker 1: to your own devices. And if you're being gaslight the
Speaker 1: entire time, making yourself, you know, being made to feel
Speaker 1: that your air quotes crazy. That's why that word is
Speaker 1: so dangerous, and I'm so glad you bring that up.
Speaker 1: The word crazy, which is you know, in part why
Speaker 1: we chose it for this title, because it's such a
Speaker 1: word that is thrown away by people up my ex
Speaker 1: as just crazy, and chances are that's probably not true.
Speaker 1: The first question we should ask is what drove them crazy?
Speaker 1: And so people get embarrassed to say, oh, my goodness,
Speaker 1: I was pushed to the edge, and I'm too embarrassed
Speaker 1: to ask for help. At this point, I'm in over
Speaker 1: my head and next thing you know, you're in either
Speaker 1: a con situation or far worse. You know, you're a
Speaker 1: victim of murder. So where I live in Connecticut, we
Speaker 1: have a new law that took effect October for twenty
Speaker 1: anny one, and it's called Jennifer's Law Jennifer's plural. Maybe
Speaker 1: some of you have heard of the Jennifer Doulo's case.
Speaker 1: He was a woman in New Kine in Connecticut, we
Speaker 1: believe was murdered by her strange husband, who later killed himself.
Speaker 1: And there was another Jennifer in Connecticut who also went
Speaker 1: through Magnano went through domestic abuse and was murdered. So
Speaker 1: it's named for these two women. And what it basically
Speaker 1: does is expands domestic abuse laws to include coercive control.
Speaker 1: So what is coercive control. It doesn't have to be physical.
Speaker 1: It can be emotional abuse, Financial abuse is something that
Speaker 1: is seen a lot um. It can be you know,
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, right, intimidation withholding basic needs from someone, um
Speaker 1: and resources. So all of those things are makeup coercive control.
Speaker 1: It's just starting to be used in our courts here.
Speaker 1: We're hoping that other states will follow, and this is
Speaker 1: something that the UK has actually lead on. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of the coercive control experts I have talked
Speaker 1: to here and interviewed for many articles I've done for
Speaker 1: Miss magazine and other outlets about this say that all
Speaker 1: abuse starts with some form of narcissism. So it really
Speaker 1: ties into everything you talk about on your podcast because
Speaker 1: these violent situations and these murders we hear about that
Speaker 1: our domestic violence situations start with a power and control
Speaker 1: dynamic at their core. Certainly, if you're in a situation
Speaker 1: you fear that maybe nobody will believe you, or that's
Speaker 1: not enough abuse to constitute help. And I'm thankful that
Speaker 1: you're bringing that to everyone's attention because it's that's stage one,
Speaker 1: get the help. That's exactly the case. And you know,
Speaker 1: in in family court situations and domestic violence situations, there's
Speaker 1: been this history of say, oh, she's just being emotional,
Speaker 1: or we don't want to get into any of the
Speaker 1: emotional stuff. I mean, that doesn't matter. So what this
Speaker 1: law and this movement that's starting now says is, yes,
Speaker 1: what that does matter. You know, that really does matter,
Speaker 1: and that ties back to online dating and privatory practices.
Speaker 1: It does matter if you're deceived online. There are real consequences,
Speaker 1: There are real harms to you. And I think more
Speaker 1: and more people are validating all victims point of view
Speaker 1: on these issues. Yeah, thank you for shutting it light.
Speaker 1: You want to know the red flags. But then sometimes
Speaker 1: you can overcorrect and think everybody's you know, just like them.
Speaker 1: You know, you're kind of like, are there good people anymore?
Speaker 1: Or they all that? You know. The reason it is
Speaker 1: so devastating is it messes with your entire view of
Speaker 1: the world and part of the cycle. You know, it's
Speaker 1: the love bombing, which is the idealization phase. And then
Speaker 1: the discard phase is not so much always just a
Speaker 1: quick clean discard, you know, them discarding you. It is
Speaker 1: a painful process of intermittent behavior where they're nice to
Speaker 1: you and cruel to you. And when they're nice to you,
Speaker 1: you want to go back to the fairy tale and
Speaker 1: you want all the nightmare to go away. And that's
Speaker 1: a human emotion and it's normal. And but this whole
Speaker 1: thing is called cognitive dissonance because you can't kind of
Speaker 1: wrap your head around this person you thought was so
Speaker 1: amazing and wonderful and had your back. It's the person
Speaker 1: out to get you. And um Actually, Cecily in the
Speaker 1: documentary says that I didn't know that someone could be
Speaker 1: so fucking evil. I think that's why it's so important
Speaker 1: that we're even talking about it today, which is a
Speaker 1: little off format from a typical episode of Crazy in Love,
Speaker 1: but it's very important as we are in you know,
Speaker 1: Valentine's Day month, arguably the first Valentine's Day ish that
Speaker 1: the world is opening and people are stepping out of
Speaker 1: quarantine and you know, in some ways have been starved
Speaker 1: for love and affection, which makes so many more people
Speaker 1: clean targets for you know, dangerous behavior. You know, people
Speaker 1: have been locked away. Now they can get out there
Speaker 1: and start keeping people, and we need to be reminded
Speaker 1: of the tools to do it safely. Let's stop here
Speaker 1: for another quick break. So here's one tip for that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the number one thing, honestly is to trust
Speaker 1: your gut. Sometimes you want to believe what you see
Speaker 1: and you want this so badly that you don't listen
Speaker 1: to your gut. I'm so glad you said that, because again,
Speaker 1: that's such a mixed message for single people out there,
Speaker 1: which is three dates is the rule. You should know
Speaker 1: you know right away when it's the right person, When
Speaker 1: it's your person, it's it's instantaneous. And again, even if
Speaker 1: that's the case, it still takes time to get to
Speaker 1: know a person. So if somebody, although that you might
Speaker 1: be fantastic, tells you that you know you're the one
Speaker 1: they've been waiting for their entire life after a coffee,
Speaker 1: that is, although might feel good, not a good sign.
Speaker 1: They don't even know you yet. How could they possibly
Speaker 1: know that much? And it's really easy to want to
Speaker 1: hear that so deeply that we fall for it. And also,
Speaker 1: you know, These same rules also can apply to relationships
Speaker 1: that are happening right. You could be married and in
Speaker 1: a relationship with a narcissist or a sociopath and just
Speaker 1: really didn't see the signs and may feel in over
Speaker 1: your head now. So a lot of these things that
Speaker 1: you talk about, the love bombing, the crazy making behaviors
Speaker 1: that can happen when you're already knee deep in something
Speaker 1: and there are way is to get help. The biggest
Speaker 1: piece of advice I have is to work with someone
Speaker 1: like a coach or a therapist who understands what you
Speaker 1: are up against. And obviously the women I help who
Speaker 1: are going through divorce, it's essential that they have an
Speaker 1: attorney who understands what they're up against. Even some brilliant
Speaker 1: attorneys who have not had experience with these creditory types
Speaker 1: don't understand the chess game going on, right, And so
Speaker 1: you've got to have somebody protecting you who gets it.
Speaker 1: And also, to your point, make sure you trust your gut.
Speaker 1: And even if your partner is presenting themselves to you
Speaker 1: and you're scared or in any way feel unsafe, but
Speaker 1: the rest of the world doesn't see that side yet,
Speaker 1: you know, I would imagine that narcissists are also very
Speaker 1: good at hiding bad behavior went around work, colleagues or
Speaker 1: your family or friends. So you know, you may feel
Speaker 1: like you're in a little hole by yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: make sure you seek help. Absolutely. I started kind of
Speaker 1: googling pathological liar, which led me to narcissism, which led
Speaker 1: me to learn about and then I devoured every book
Speaker 1: and anything I could on it. When I was going
Speaker 1: through and I went to a support group at my
Speaker 1: local women's shelter where I, you know, had gone to
Speaker 1: their fundraising breakfast. I never thought I would be using
Speaker 1: their services, and I did. And actually, a couple of
Speaker 1: years later, I spoke at their annual fundraising breakfast telling
Speaker 1: my story. And so it's it's really important because other
Speaker 1: people don't understand what it's like. A lot of times,
Speaker 1: these perpetrators do have this amazing public image. That's wonderful. Right,
Speaker 1: they could even be public figures, they could be successful
Speaker 1: in their fields, they could get that kind of adulation
Speaker 1: where it validates to you that, oh they're a decent person. Right,
Speaker 1: they can even be faith leaders. I've heard of that.
Speaker 1: You know, people you would not suspect the worst thing
Speaker 1: for them is for you to pull that mask off
Speaker 1: and for them to be closed. Then they're they're naked
Speaker 1: to the world when they've been spent their whole lives
Speaker 1: building up this false image of themselves. And keep your
Speaker 1: friends close. You need that support group. And if any
Speaker 1: relationship tries to separate you, male or female from your
Speaker 1: your circle of people, and that could just be one person,
Speaker 1: you know that one person could ultimately be your lifeline.
Speaker 1: Can I just say one thing about the Tinder swindler
Speaker 1: women who spoke out in the documentary, Yes, coming Forward
Speaker 1: was extremely brave because they knew that some people were
Speaker 1: going to say, oh, it's their fault, right, they got douped.
Speaker 1: How stupid are they? Some people even put comments over
Speaker 1: did you notice they're all blonde? I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: really nasty comments and what they've been through. You know,
Speaker 1: use a little empathy yourself. I mean us Alsa, you know,
Speaker 1: had to check herself into psychiatric ward because of suicidal thoughts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so true, and yeah it does require a level
Speaker 1: of courage that is so easy to underestimate. And yeah,
Speaker 1: very grateful that they did. It's an amazing documentary. If
Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, to any of our listeners. Please
Speaker 1: do on Netflix right now. It's it's a really worthy watch.
Speaker 1: Anything that you want to share with listeners, Well, I'm
Speaker 1: a journalist and a divorce coach. I help women take
Speaker 1: their power back during and after a divorce or a
Speaker 1: toxic relationship. My coaching practice is called Freedom Warrior because
Speaker 1: that's what I and all the women who escape these
Speaker 1: relationships are. So you can find me at freedom Warrior
Speaker 1: dot info. That's my website where you can find out
Speaker 1: about my coaching for women before, during, and after divorce
Speaker 1: or a toxic relationship. I offer a free thirty minute
Speaker 1: consultation if you go to the contact me page. I
Speaker 1: also did a virtual workshop in January which was called
Speaker 1: have a Nark Free New Year, and you can get
Speaker 1: the recording there. It was a half day all on
Speaker 1: narcissism with eight different speakers, so we had women on
Speaker 1: from across the country. I'm on a mission to educate
Speaker 1: women and then about these predatory types and that's why
Speaker 1: I'm writing my book called Don't Fall for a con
Speaker 1: How to Spot narcissists in sociopaths before It's too late.
Speaker 1: And also follow me on Instagram at Freedom Warrior tribe
Speaker 1: and on Twitter, Amy Paloco p O L A c
Speaker 1: Ko as a takeaway. Here Amy Paloco's cliff notes and
Speaker 1: top five red flags to look out for when dating
Speaker 1: so you can protect yourself from predators. Number one love bombing.
Speaker 1: This is when someone comes on too strong, too fast.
Speaker 1: It may feel great, but you just have to watch
Speaker 1: it and let the relationship play out. Two gas lighting.
Speaker 1: That's when someone tells you something is not true when
Speaker 1: you know it is. This is a favorite tool in
Speaker 1: the narcissist toolbox, so go with your gut and trust yourself.
Speaker 1: Three is future faking. That's when your partner makes larger
Speaker 1: than life promises about your future together, the children you'll have,
Speaker 1: or where you'll retire. Four calling all of their exes crazy. Finally,
Speaker 1: the telltale sign is a lack of empathy. Anyone can
Speaker 1: look for clues to this if someone you're in a
Speaker 1: relationship with doesn't really care about other people and aren't
Speaker 1: able to experience this emotion. If something comes up where
Speaker 1: you say, oh, that made me feel bad and they
Speaker 1: look like a flatline, that is a red flag to
Speaker 1: you and a hint that something is very wrong. Shameless plug.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Crazy and Love. Leave us a review
Speaker 1: To view our recent documentary Murdered Missing in Montana. You'll
Speaker 1: find it streaming now on Peacock. Follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Katie Underscore Studios. Crazy and Love is produced by
Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Grieves and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ta. Crazy in Love
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows. Stay safe, lovers,