1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm Kevin Ceili, chief Washington correspondent from Bloomberg Television and 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio, and I always wish we had more time 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: on the show, especially when we have such an insider 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,159 Speaker 1: in the intel world like John gons On. He was 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: with us for the show. He's the author of the 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: new book White House Warriors, How the National Security Council 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: Transformed the American way of War. He worked at the 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: Pentagon for former Secretary Ash Carter as the former chief 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: speech writer up until John the book, I've been able 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: to skim it, and I want to read it on 11 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: the long weekend. It's fascinating because it really describes the 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: work culture at the NSC. What is the work culture 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: like at the NSC. Well, I think it's you know, 14 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: as I sort of said on air, what you know, 15 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: national security is a blot like every other workplace, right 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: you got and I and I always tell my students 17 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: that these people who are working at the situation where 18 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: they're not that different than you and me. They're people 19 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: who are interested in foreign policy. They're smart, they're dedicated, 20 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: they're in they're they're hard working, and generally speaking, the 21 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: dedicated their lives to either serving in the military, serving 22 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: in the intelligence community, serving as diplomats, or just working 23 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: for the kind of people who become presidents. And so 24 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: it's a great group of interesting, dedicated people working under 25 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: tremendous stakes. What are the sacrifices that like a uh, 26 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: like let's start, like, what what are the sacrifices that 27 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: like a twentysothing staffer at the NFC has to make, 28 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: uh if they work you know, the intel world that 29 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 1: people wouldn't know about. Not like I'm not talking about 30 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: like alias or like twenty four with Jack Bower, but like, 31 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: what are like some of like the real life sacrifices. 32 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: I think what you actually see is is it over 33 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: the history which I start a tract from the National 34 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: Security Council from seven to today, is you actually see 35 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 1: the age of the staffer is getting younger in part 36 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: because the job has just gotten crazier. And and I 37 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: wrote it, what does that mean? Because technology has allowed 38 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: people to do more and more and more, so they 39 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: can actually keep up with the world in a way 40 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: that they didn't in the cable days, where you would 41 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: sort of write your cable, it would go off to 42 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: your counterpart abroad and then you would show up the 43 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: next morning after time difference, and you'd get a new cable. 44 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: And I don't think people under necessarily know what cables 45 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: means exactly, So what's a cable? So a cable in 46 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: the old day was basically like a telegram. You would 47 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: write a paper, a memo, and you would send it 48 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: a long sort of cable that was like a report 49 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: on what you did that day, a meeting and a 50 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: new change in your in a country, and you would 51 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: send it to Washington watch you and read it. They'd respond, 52 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: and you'd come back to your embassy abroad and you 53 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: sort of act out the policy has handed down today, 54 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: it's in real time. I wrote a piece for Wired 55 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: last week about how video teleconferencing has allowed NSC staffers 56 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: to basically do everything from managing wars to managing relationships 57 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: with foreign allies, and so as a result, the staff 58 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: work has just gotten crazier. I mean, a staff are 59 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: working on Iran will probably work twenty hour days, seven 60 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: days a week for about a year or two years. 61 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: There's a reason that the staff tenures at the NFC 62 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: or so shut is because most people can't do it 63 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: for very long. And when you say working on the issue. 64 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: I think in the book really does a great job 65 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 1: of mapping it out on how like post Cold War 66 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: foreign policy versus today a impacts this but like someone 67 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: working on Iran policy, for example, could be a twenty 68 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: something sitting in a cubicle. Yes that I don't think 69 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: people like truthfully, and like why would anyway. It's it's 70 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: fascinating because I think we so often think of these 71 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: jobs as being like, you know, Jack Bauer and Jack 72 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: Bauer being but but really it's like they get they 73 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: have to go in, put their phone away, They can't 74 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: be on Instagram, they can't be on social media, they 75 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: have to be fully committed, and they put their phone 76 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: in a locker, right Usually they even bring it out 77 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: of their cars. Most people just leave it in their 78 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: cars because you can't bring it into the secure facilities 79 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: because all these rooms and offices are secure, compartmentalized places 80 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: where top secret information could be shared and top secret 81 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: emails coming in and things all them. And so they're 82 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: sitting in a cubicle essentially like wow, well I think 83 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: that's what are they doing? I'm not like, but what 84 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: are they actually doing? Are they on a computer? Are 85 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: they like how what are they doing. Yeah. So, I 86 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: mean that's why I tried to write this book was 87 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: to kind of say, to see the staff level of 88 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: how policies made. And so I track, what example, one 89 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: staff right track in the in the beginning because Megan O'Sullivan, 90 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: who was a thirtysomething year old young woman who was 91 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: helping George W. Bush come up with the search right, 92 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: and so a day for her was monitoring all of 93 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: the intelligence that was going to the president in the mornings, 94 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: working in real time to sort of come up with 95 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: ideas whether he had a phone call with the Prime 96 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: Minister of Iraq, whether he was having a meeting with 97 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: depending on she would have to prepare him for those meetings, 98 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: and in her spare time she tried to come up 99 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: with ideas right to try and like turn the war around. 100 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: And then at the end of the try and like 101 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: turn the war around. I mean I had to like 102 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: the way he said, like, you know, trying to like 103 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: turn the war around exactly. But it was, you know, 104 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: she talks about in one part of the book like 105 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: this was the worst memo I had ever written, and 106 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: it was like the memo on the search right. She 107 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: just couldn't get it into place that she wanted. Or 108 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: there's another story about Richard Hass, who everybody knows. Richard 109 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: Hasses is now the President Council on for Relations, But 110 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: when he was just a staffer, he had um in nine. 111 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: He worked for George H. W. Bush and he was 112 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: just a staff for working on the Gulf War. And 113 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: he had pulled like five all nighters in a row 114 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: and came to work on a Sunday and just shorts 115 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: and a T shirt just to check his you know, 116 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: check the latest on the thing on the reports. He 117 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: was in a situation from shorts and a T shirt. 118 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: And he gets a call from the National Security Advisor 119 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: and the nastro short advisor says, you need to go 120 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: to Marine one landing in about a half hour to 121 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: give the president a briefing. He's gonna beet with the press. 122 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: And the first thing Richard Hoses thinks is, oh, expletive, 123 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm in the wrong clothes. And he had to go 124 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: bum a blazer from his buddy down the hall, and 125 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: he and Condi Rice sat like came together and Richard 126 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: Hass was so tired he couldn't even type. But he 127 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: was like, I was having a hard time and he 128 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: was working on a on a computer. So Connie just 129 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: said get out of the seat. Types she says, just dictate. 130 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: He writes up something. He shows up at Marine one. 131 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: President waves him over, he gives him the briefing, and 132 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: he says, you gotta say something hard, too hard to 133 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: the press. You gotta say something tough. And Bush kind 134 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: of goes okay, walks out, and he says his famous 135 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: this will not stand this aggression by a Rock. And 136 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: that was where people got the idea for the first time, 137 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: and we were going to go to war against I Rock. 138 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave it there. That's a great story. John 139 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: Gunn's author of the new book White House Warriors, how 140 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: the National Security Council transformed the American way of war. 141 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: When I was skimming it, and again, I can't wait 142 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: to dive into it. When I was skimming it, it 143 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: reminded me of what Aaron Sorkin did for White House staffers, 144 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: for the West Wing. Uh, and it's the same. People 145 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: don't understand what it. Hollywood's perception of what actually goes 146 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: on is so incorrect. Thank you very much, John for 147 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: the time. That's it for me. Kevin's really cheap Washington 148 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: correspondent for Bloomberg TV and Bloomberg Radio.