WEBVTT - Those Left Behind 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:06.640 My world stopped that day. I was just stuck in 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.440 this cycle of, Oh my gosh, what's going to happen next, 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:11.520 What's going to happen next? Or could this happen to me? 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:18.279 The underlying psychological phenomenon is that they are doing to 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.880 themselves what the killer didn't. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:21.919 Do to them. 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.279 Why am I here but not them? Why wasn't I 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.600 one that they took. There's so much that goes with 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:36.840 surviving something like this. 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:40.640 This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:47.320 and iHeart Radio, Season two, episode eleven, Those Left Behind. 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.080 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:58.040 Leidecker and Gabriel Castillo. At the center of the horrific 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.920 murders that took place on November thirtie teenth, twenty twenty two, are, 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.959 of course the victims, and it's of the utmost importance, 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.479 not just from a reporting standpoint, but from a human 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:11.759 perspective to keep their memories alive. 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:23.560 If you knew Ethan, he was never angry about anything, You. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.120 Would never get upset. 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:30.760 Everybody loved him, and I feel so lucky so I've shared. 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:31.920 So many great memories with him. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.000 Sanna was the funniest person I knew, and maybe laugh 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:36.440 every time I spent time with her. 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:39.199 She was my baby sister, but she was so much 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.840 wiser and experienced so much more in life than I 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:47.240 ever have. Maddie was the best, spreading love to all 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:50.080 those that were close to her. Every time I talked 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.520 to her on the phone, she would end the conversation with, 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:54.240 I Love you. 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.240 Kitty was a rental child out of five. 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:00.000 She was always competitive. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:01.480 She was smack dad met. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.320 Also, there was enough never a day that she didn't 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.520 want to race her brother because she was determined that 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.160 girls were faster than boys. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.960 Not only were their families devastated, but so too were 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.800 their friends and the community at large. For those left behind, 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.480 the healing may have only begun, and it may for 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:32.440 some last a lifetime. Try and get some understanding of 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.519 the impact left in the wake of the murders. Stephanie 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.079 and I have reached out to a psychiatrist specializing in 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.480 survivor's guilt, as well as speaking with Whitney Galloway, a 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.160 brave young woman who has been through and is still 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:48.120 healing from survivor's guilt. Stephanie and I had the honor 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:50.880 of meeting Whitney while working on a documentary on the 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.200 Pike Khanni murders, which is covered in detail in our 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:59.600 other podcast, The piked In Massacre. Here's Whitney then Stephanie. 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.440 Well, for me, I mean, it did take me a 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:09.080 long time to process everything, get through it. Yeah, I 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.480 was eighteen at the time, So at eighteen, you don't 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.440 really expect to have to deal with the emotions, the 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.480 after effects, the really the I mean, it's basically PTSD 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.080 of what you get from something like that to happen. 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.080 You and I met with Courtney a couple of years ago. Now, 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.040 Courtney and I I think were in town for Wagner's 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.080 trial and had been reaching out to you, And I 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.080 can still picture you sitting on that wooden swing, just 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:37.840 sort of like. 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.280 Who are these two people coming up to my house 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:41.960 right now? Is this safe? 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.880 For anyone who's not familiar with the Pike County murders 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.520 and the massacre in Pie County. They lost their lives 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.920 really tragically at the hands of another family of four. 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:58.200 Jake Wagner, who is the youngest son of this foursome, 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.920 was a mother father into some He's the youngest. Whitney 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.400 knew and had a lot of contacts with in the 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.680 month if not longer leading up to the murders, and 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.320 her very best friends Hannah Gilly had lost her life 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:17.640 that night, really tragically, and you know, you knew the 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:19.919 whole family, you knew all of the victims. But that 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.440 really fishtails into why we're talking right now. You know, 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.080 massacres are not in common, thank god. But then there's 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:31.839 Idaho where also four young adults lost their lives. Two 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.640 of the surviving victims were in the home at the 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.960 time of the murders, and families have been ripped apart 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.719 and devastated. So we thought it was like a nice 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.640 way to take a breath and talk to you a 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.640 little bit about that impact and what that's like and 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:50.000 what your journey has been like. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.360 I mean still to this day, it's been eight years 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.360 since they were taken from us, and I still struggle. 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:59.360 I don't want to say you can't get over it, 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.920 because I feel like it's not something you can get over, 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:04.839 but you learn to live with it. 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:12.000 Here's doctor Carol Lieberman, a board certified psychiatrist known as 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:17.080 America Psychiatrist as well as the Terrorist Therapist. This comes 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.880 into play because doctor Carroll has dedicated much of her 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:23.280 career in the last twenty three years helping people cope 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.040 with the aftermath of nine to eleven, I began our 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:31.400 conversation simply asking for the definition of the term survivor's guilt. 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:38.800 Survivor's guilt is generally used to mean someone who was 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:43.960 in a very traumatic situation and who survived it when 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.800 other people didn't, and who is left with a feeling 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.160 like they didn't deserve to survive. They should have done 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:56.440 more to save the other people. They feel that they 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.599 should have done more, or something that they did do 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.080 made it worse for the people, you know, kill the 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.919 other people, helped to kill the other people. They're punishing themselves. 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.240 They feel they deserve to be punished because they survive 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.880 this horrible thing, and so they are basically continuing the 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:18.440 trauma by continuing to punish themselves. They didn't get killed 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:23.440 or injured, perhaps, but they deserve to and therefore I'm 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.560 going to ruin my life. And that's not conscious, you know, 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.440 they don't say that to themselves necessarily consciously, but they 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:37.279 become stuck in the trauma. They become because they feel 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.600 they should have died they don't want to or can't 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.840 proceed with their life. It's like they did die, and 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:49.200 so it can be totally totally debilitating. It's not the 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.880 same thing as PTSD, although it's kind of mentioned in 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:57.400 the DSM the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as being sort 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:02.640 of related to PTSD post dramatic stress disorder. But so 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:09.440 it can show with symptoms of anxiety depression PTSD different 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:14.960 kinds of psychological symptoms, but where they're the underlying psychological 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:20.160 phenomenon is that they are doing to themselves what the 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.720 killer didn't do to them. 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:29.000 Here again, Whitney talking about the impact the April anniversary 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.680 of the murders have on her. At the time of 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.440 the recording, the anniversary was upcoming. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.840 It's almost like your body holds that trauma from that day. 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.480 Your body will hold it. Your body will always remember it, 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.200 even though say it's like twenty five years down the road. 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.000 It's like this month, I'm getting headache, I'm anxious more. 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:50.520 I talk to a therapist. 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:51.320 I've been in. 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.440 Therapy for a year now because I didn't realize what 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:59.160 I was doing because of the murders. But she explained 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.400 it to me, said, you know, your body holds in 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:05.320 that trauma and it remembers trauma, and so where April 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.680 was such a big month to me, it made sense. 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.000 You know, I'm anxious more. I'm having nightmares. I wake 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.240 up in the middle of the night. I feel like 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.840 I won't remember the day till it's the day, but 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.120 my body won't let me forget it. 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.800 I guess that's really true. I think that would probably 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.800 apply to any real loss. Suddenly it's the eight year anniversary. 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.280 I know that's been just a few days. It's been 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.760 heavy on our hearts as well, and all of them, 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.080 all of the victims family is in Pie County in general. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.720 I asked doctor Carroll if it's common for people to 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.120 experience exacerbated symptoms around anniversaries. 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:48.440 Yes, that can happen. You know, anniversary reactions are really interesting. 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.920 A lot of times people aren't aware that SUSI and 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.960 such a date is coming up, but then when the 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.920 date happens, all of a sudden, you know, either they're 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.839 filling things in their body, they can't get out of 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.720 bed or something like that, you know, because they're so depressed, 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.760 or they do something that is totally out of character 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.000 because part of their mind does realize that it is 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:09.920 this anniversary. 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:10.480 You know. 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.560 A good example, of course, is nine to eleven. Every year, 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:18.400 when the anniversary happens, it triggers memories. And even if 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.760 again even if the people aren't necessarily thinking, right, people are, oh, well, 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.160 September eleventh, when the day comes, I mean, that's a trigger, 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.679 of course, But even things like planes flying overhead making 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.400 a loud noise, or what they were eating, for example, 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:38.320 people who were eating a certain thing for breakfast that day, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:41.760 and then whenever they have that again, it reminds them 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:43.880 of that morning when they were eating it, and then 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.000 nine to eleven happened, or they don't have it again 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:46.640 on purpose. 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.720 Stephanie and Whitney continue their conversation about grief and its 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.840 cyclical nature. Here again Stephanie, followed by Whitney. 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.560 It creeps up on you right suddenly you think you 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:05.400 have it all tucked away, and then that's I guess 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.160 the thing about grief, it's a whole. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.120 It's a whole that maybe doesn't have to be filled. 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.240 Yeah, and that doesn't ever get filled, but you find 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:15.559 a way to work around it, I guess. 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:16.640 Yeah. 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.079 For me, like I went so many years without any 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:23.120 help out without talking to anybody, Like, no one could 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.439 really relate to what I mean, besides the family obviously, 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.480 but you don't want to go and keep bringing it 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.080 up to them because that's such it's a traumatic thing. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.480 So trying to find a friend or a friend that 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.680 would even remotely understand what it was like is hard, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.280 especially at such a young age. It just it's it 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.600 was hard. But therapy has helped me tremendously. I know 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:48.960 some people just don't. 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:50.800 Don't believe in it, right, they don't know some people 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.560 like are resistant to therapy. And we're not condoning it, 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.800 we're prescribing it one way or the other. I too, 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.240 believe in it. We don't want to burden people with 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:03.440 your grief. You don't want to theme week by, you know, 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.800 being on a loop and feeling like you just have 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.239 loss that you can't get out of the way. 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.000 Like it consumes your whole life. I got to the 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.719 point where it felt like my whole this was my 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.280 whole life. I felt like my my world stopped that 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.560 day and I was just stuck in this cycle of 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:23.920 Oh my gosh, what's gonna happen next, What's going to 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:25.880 happen next? Or could this happen to me? Is this 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:27.959 gonna happen to me? Who can I trust? Who can 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.960 I not trust? Or my door's locked or my windows locked? 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:31.760 Am I safe? 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:33.280 I still have that. 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.600 I'm learning to start to trust people. It takes a 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.800 long time, a very long time, and not for me, 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:42.960 at least, it took a long time. I feel like 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.400 if I had somebody else that I could relate to 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.800 with what was going on, it would probably help me 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.480 a lot more and a lot sooner. 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.000 And I think You're not alone in that. I think 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:57.280 that kind of says two things. One granted, both of 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:03.000 these cases, both in Idaho and in Pike, are extreme. Right. 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.200 We have heard, like we heard a statistic that the 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:09.160 likelihood of you being in a massacre of this level 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.920 or losing someone you love in a manner like this 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.319 is as common as being killed by a vending machine 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.839 falling on you. It's that rare, right, So, on the 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.920 one hand, there's comfort in that these are extreme cases. 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.679 But for someone like you, or for any of the 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.720 students in Idaho or family members you know, you realize, 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.720 like the flame was really close, and it's hard to 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.400 reacclimate to the world that you want to be safe 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.440 when you realize, huh, the Boogeyman was really close or 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:45.359 with somebody that I knew. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.079 Yeah, or they say like, you know, monsters are not real, 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.880 but they actually you know they are, They really are. 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.760 For me, when I talk about it now, I don't 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.000 feel as a shame like I don't feel like I'm 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.720 being a burden to anybody to talk about it, because 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:02.640 it did happen to me, and I did have to 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:06.040 work through it, and I can talk about it, and 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.120 I'm allowed to talk about it. It was such a 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.600 significant thing in my life, and it was such a 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.880 traumatic thing in my life that I'm allowed to feel 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.560 a certain way. I'm allowed to be sad one day, 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:24.480 I'm allowed to celebrate their life when day. No one 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.680 can tell you you're being too much over something like that. 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.120 No one can tell you how to feel about it. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.439 No one can tell you, oh, you've been sad long enough, 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.679 We're done. I'm at the point now where instead of grieving, 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.480 I mean, I'm still grieving, but I want to remember 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.160 the good things. I want to remember. You know, I 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.640 do have these amazing people in my life. I do 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.520 have pictures to look back on, and I'm allowed to 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.120 watch videos and laugh about in things that we joked 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.600 around about. I'm allowed to say I miss her or 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.240 yeah it's a lot to some people, but the right people, 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:04.960 it won't be a lot to talk about. 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.920 And I think that makes you such an amazing source. 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.040 You know, I know one thing for sure that you 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:14.920 do not heal alone. Nobody heals alone. And you don't 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:19.440 have to be connected to a massacre to understand loss 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.800 and to have trauma comes in so many shapes and 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.000 sizes and in so many different ways. And sometimes people 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.440 feel like my pain wouldn't nearly be as big as 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.120 their pain. You even thought that for a second. Well, 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.600 I'm not the family, so I shouldn't be able to 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.440 feel this much pain. Which is you know, grief and 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.680 love are so wildly connected, and they're so incredibly closely tied, 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.280 and if you stuff that stuff down, it can really 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.240 turn on you. It turns on your body, it turns 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.240 on your decision making. We start making decisions from a 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.520 place of loss as opposed to a place of gain. 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:55.160 Loss is loss. 0:14:55.440 --> 0:15:00.320 You might have just a bigger well to pull from from. 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:04.000 Many people listening are sad so they don't have that 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:05.640 best friend like you had in Hannah. 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.760 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:21.960 a moment. I asked doctor Carroll about Whitney's complicated feelings 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.920 of being unable to feel her own grief because she 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.480 felt it was so much worse for the victims and 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:28.240 their families. 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:34.520 A part of survivor's guilt is not feeling that you 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:41.720 deserve any treatment, therapy, or any sympathy for what you 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:46.280 did experience as part of the trauma, and so feeling 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.880 like experiencing grief or experiencing some of the things that 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.680 perhaps the families of the people who were killed and 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:58.360 so on feel. It feels self indulgent to experience grief 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.040 and to any into you know, when people would say, oh, 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.440 that must be so hard for you to lose your friend, 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.960 and blah blah blah. And of course in her case, 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.320 actually you said she was friends with the people who 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:15.960 did this. What makes Whitney's case particularly complicated is that 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:20.560 she feels guilty that she didn't stop it because she 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:26.240 knew the people who did it. 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.200 She has said, why didn't I stop it? Of course, 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.120 no way to imagine this would have happened, But yes, 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:34.040 you're exactly right. 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.920 You know, so it's extra extra guilt. It's not just 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.840 that she survived, you know, but she blames herself. It's 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.160 just self blame. I mean, this kind of thing could 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.840 cause not only things like depression, anxiety and all of that, 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.760 but actual physical you know. I hate to say it, 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.760 but I mean like things like cancer, things like other 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:01.160 kinds of diseases or disorders. If you keep showering yourself 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.399 with all of this guilt and blame and you know, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.760 year upon year, that is very, very unhealthy. It could 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.800 cause all kinds of systems in your body to go bunkers. 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.240 As a reminder, we met Whitney while working on the 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:17.680 Pike County documentary. 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:21.640 Do you feel like this by talking even just through 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.000 the process of being in a documentary and sort of 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.080 talking it out, did that shift things a little bit 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:27.480 for you? 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.159 Well, I mean I was nervous at first to do 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.240 the documentary, but in a way it was kind of 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:37.880 healing for people to see not only did it affect yes, 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:41.520 it affected their family, and I could not imagine what 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.159 it would be for a family member, but as a 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.720 close friend, there's just it. It was healing for me 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.560 because people got to see it from my point of view. 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:55.040 People got to see how not only did the Wagners 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.320 did what they did to the Rodents and the Gillies, 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.119 but it was so many more people than what they 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.639 probably realize. I mean, like I said in the documentary, 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.280 they changed my life that day. Even today, I'm still 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.439 not going to be the same, which it would expect 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.320 someone to be the same right after something like that, 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:17.919 but no, it was actually kind of healing to be 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.480 able to voice what they did to not only the 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:22.840 family but to everybody else. 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.080 I think that's the whole point of these things, right, 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.200 even this podcast, it's like sometimes people assume, oh, it's 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.560 just like to unpack a grizzly event, and truly that's 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.120 not the case. I think it's two part One, to prevent. 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.400 If you don't know that these types of things happen 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.800 in the world, it's really hard to avoid them or 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:43.119 identify red flags and things that are really easy to 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.880 do in retrospect in somebody else's retrospect. Even so it's 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.359 like a safety thing. And then also to keep the 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.520 victims alive. In the case of Idaho, not too similarly 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.399 to Pie County, that trial still lies ahead. The Idaho 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.000 trial looks like it probably will be set for next year. 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:05.160 That's a long time for the general public to lose 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.240 sight of the lives and the humans that were lost, 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.200 and it's important that we keep them alive because people 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:13.720 should be mad as hell. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:18.560 Yeah, be mad, voice it, be mad. Don't sit and 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.320 think that they won. No one's won yet. No one 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.640 has won a single thing until that day. And that's 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:30.720 another thing, is that feeling if and when justice comes 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.200 is a feeling no one will ever understand that has 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.280 that they've not had to be through. You might cry, 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:41.080 you might scream, and if you feel you need to 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:42.000 do that, do it. 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:45.280 In the Pikes in Ohio case, three of the four 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:49.000 accused murderers have been found or pled guilty. One member's 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:50.440 trial is still upcoming. 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.640 When we got the partial justice that we have. I mean, 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.200 I was pregnant at the time, but if I could 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:00.640 have been out in my yard jumping around and pop models, 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.240 you know, I would have done it. But yeah, I 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:08.720 mean there's just so many emotions that come with that 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:12.040 part too. You have all this grief and then this 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:16.000 happens and it's like you're you just can't contain it. 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.160 It made me feel like we accomplished something it wasn't. 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.120 And no, it doesn't bring them back. That was one 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.199 hard feeling I had. It doesn't bring them back, but 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:26.960 they got the justice they deserved. 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:28.960 What would you say? 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:33.040 Would you have any words of advice to anyone who's 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.359 gone through this level of trauma or some level of trauma, 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.720 whether that's they're a victim of a violent crime, or 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.560 someone they love very deeply is the victim of a 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.280 violent crime, or in your case too, you had it 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:50.600 in both sides because you knew the victim and the perpetrator. 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.080 Well, that's also equally scary. 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.960 You know, you shared space with someone, you were texting 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.120 with someone in the days after the murderers who was like. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.359 I have no idea. Hopefully they find the killer. 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.359 Meanwhile, you're the killer by your own admission. Do you 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.680 have any advice for anyone who's just kind of stuck 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.840 in their head and doesn't have anyone to speak to 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:12.520 about their feelings? 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:14.200 How do you process? 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:19.320 I mean, you're not alone. When this happened with Hannah 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.320 and the Rodents, I felt alone and it took me 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.320 a while to realize I wasn't alone. Always reach out 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:32.880 reach out to anybody that you trust anyone that you're 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:36.760 comfortable with. Take your time. It's all about your time. 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.760 Like it's all about time. Do not think you're alone. 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.840 You can always reach out, even if it's me. You know, 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.040 anyone could ever reach out, because I've been in it. 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.440 I don't care if it would be three in the morning, 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:55.879 like please call you know. I needed that person. And 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.800 so instead of moping around thinking, oh, I really wish 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:00.920 I had somebody, I I want to be that person 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:04.480 for somebody. So there's anything. That's all I can really 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.439 think to say is just you're not alone. 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.719 If you've now enrolled in school to become a social 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:18.080 worker and a victim's advocate. And we all like to 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:22.920 believe that in some part it is because you shared 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:27.440 so much on the case that you know, people really 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:29.720 were touched in a way that can't quite be described, 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:30.760 myself included. 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.199 And I think we all get to heal with you. 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.120 And I think now you know that's obviously a calling 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:43.879 for you. If people want to connect with you, you 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:47.439 can send us any emails or any information via the 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.639 KT Studio's website and we'll make sure that it gets 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:52.120 to you. 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:54.959 And obviously, now that you've gone to school. 0:22:55.040 --> 0:23:01.159 You're like, legitimately becoming the exact thing that you is 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:04.080 pretty magical stuff. And I can't help but think that 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.520 that's Hannah Gilly at play as your guiding light a 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:07.960 little bit. 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.679