1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: My world stopped that day. I was just stuck in 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: this cycle of, Oh my gosh, what's going to happen next, 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: What's going to happen next? Or could this happen to me? 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: The underlying psychological phenomenon is that they are doing to 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: themselves what the killer didn't. 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 3: Do to them. 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: Why am I here but not them? Why wasn't I 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: one that they took. There's so much that goes with 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: surviving something like this. 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 3: and iHeart Radio, Season two, episode eleven, Those Left Behind. 12 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 3: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 3: Leidecker and Gabriel Castillo. At the center of the horrific 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: murders that took place on November thirtie teenth, twenty twenty two, are, 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 3: of course the victims, and it's of the utmost importance, 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 3: not just from a reporting standpoint, but from a human 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 3: perspective to keep their memories alive. 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: If you knew Ethan, he was never angry about anything, You. 19 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 4: Would never get upset. 20 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 5: Everybody loved him, and I feel so lucky so I've shared. 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 4: So many great memories with him. 22 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Sanna was the funniest person I knew, and maybe laugh 23 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: every time I spent time with her. 24 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,199 Speaker 5: She was my baby sister, but she was so much 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 5: wiser and experienced so much more in life than I 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 5: ever have. Maddie was the best, spreading love to all 27 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 5: those that were close to her. Every time I talked 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 5: to her on the phone, she would end the conversation with, 29 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 5: I Love you. 30 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: Kitty was a rental child out of five. 31 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: She was always competitive. 32 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 4: She was smack dad met. 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: Also, there was enough never a day that she didn't 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: want to race her brother because she was determined that 35 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: girls were faster than boys. 36 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 3: Not only were their families devastated, but so too were 37 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 3: their friends and the community at large. For those left behind, 38 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 3: the healing may have only begun, and it may for 39 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 3: some last a lifetime. Try and get some understanding of 40 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 3: the impact left in the wake of the murders. Stephanie 41 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 3: and I have reached out to a psychiatrist specializing in 42 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 3: survivor's guilt, as well as speaking with Whitney Galloway, a 43 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: brave young woman who has been through and is still 44 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 3: healing from survivor's guilt. Stephanie and I had the honor 45 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: of meeting Whitney while working on a documentary on the 46 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 3: Pike Khanni murders, which is covered in detail in our 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 3: other podcast, The piked In Massacre. Here's Whitney then Stephanie. 48 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: Well, for me, I mean, it did take me a 49 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: long time to process everything, get through it. Yeah, I 50 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: was eighteen at the time, So at eighteen, you don't 51 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: really expect to have to deal with the emotions, the 52 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: after effects, the really the I mean, it's basically PTSD 53 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: of what you get from something like that to happen. 54 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 6: You and I met with Courtney a couple of years ago. Now, 55 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 6: Courtney and I I think were in town for Wagner's 56 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 6: trial and had been reaching out to you, And I 57 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 6: can still picture you sitting on that wooden swing, just 58 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 6: sort of like. 59 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 4: Who are these two people coming up to my house 60 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 4: right now? Is this safe? 61 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 6: For anyone who's not familiar with the Pike County murders 62 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 6: and the massacre in Pie County. They lost their lives 63 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 6: really tragically at the hands of another family of four. 64 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 6: Jake Wagner, who is the youngest son of this foursome, 65 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 6: was a mother father into some He's the youngest. Whitney 66 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 6: knew and had a lot of contacts with in the 67 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 6: month if not longer leading up to the murders, and 68 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 6: her very best friends Hannah Gilly had lost her life 69 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 6: that night, really tragically, and you know, you knew the 70 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 6: whole family, you knew all of the victims. But that 71 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 6: really fishtails into why we're talking right now. You know, 72 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 6: massacres are not in common, thank god. But then there's 73 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 6: Idaho where also four young adults lost their lives. Two 74 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 6: of the surviving victims were in the home at the 75 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 6: time of the murders, and families have been ripped apart 76 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 6: and devastated. So we thought it was like a nice 77 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 6: way to take a breath and talk to you a 78 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 6: little bit about that impact and what that's like and 79 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 6: what your journey has been like. 80 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: I mean still to this day, it's been eight years 81 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: since they were taken from us, and I still struggle. 82 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to say you can't get over it, 83 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: because I feel like it's not something you can get over, 84 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: but you learn to live with it. 85 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 3: Here's doctor Carol Lieberman, a board certified psychiatrist known as 86 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: America Psychiatrist as well as the Terrorist Therapist. This comes 87 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 3: into play because doctor Carroll has dedicated much of her 88 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 3: career in the last twenty three years helping people cope 89 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 3: with the aftermath of nine to eleven, I began our 90 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: conversation simply asking for the definition of the term survivor's guilt. 91 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: Survivor's guilt is generally used to mean someone who was 92 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: in a very traumatic situation and who survived it when 93 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: other people didn't, and who is left with a feeling 94 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 2: like they didn't deserve to survive. They should have done 95 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: more to save the other people. They feel that they 96 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 2: should have done more, or something that they did do 97 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 2: made it worse for the people, you know, kill the 98 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 2: other people, helped to kill the other people. They're punishing themselves. 99 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: They feel they deserve to be punished because they survive 100 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: this horrible thing, and so they are basically continuing the 101 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: trauma by continuing to punish themselves. They didn't get killed 102 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: or injured, perhaps, but they deserve to and therefore I'm 103 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 2: going to ruin my life. And that's not conscious, you know, 104 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: they don't say that to themselves necessarily consciously, but they 105 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 2: become stuck in the trauma. They become because they feel 106 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 2: they should have died they don't want to or can't 107 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: proceed with their life. It's like they did die, and 108 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: so it can be totally totally debilitating. It's not the 109 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 2: same thing as PTSD, although it's kind of mentioned in 110 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: the DSM the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as being sort 111 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: of related to PTSD post dramatic stress disorder. But so 112 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: it can show with symptoms of anxiety depression PTSD different 113 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: kinds of psychological symptoms, but where they're the underlying psychological 114 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: phenomenon is that they are doing to themselves what the 115 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: killer didn't do to them. 116 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 3: Here again, Whitney talking about the impact the April anniversary 117 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 3: of the murders have on her. At the time of 118 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 3: the recording, the anniversary was upcoming. 119 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: It's almost like your body holds that trauma from that day. 120 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: Your body will hold it. Your body will always remember it, 121 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: even though say it's like twenty five years down the road. 122 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: It's like this month, I'm getting headache, I'm anxious more. 123 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: I talk to a therapist. 124 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 4: I've been in. 125 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: Therapy for a year now because I didn't realize what 126 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: I was doing because of the murders. But she explained 127 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: it to me, said, you know, your body holds in 128 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: that trauma and it remembers trauma, and so where April 129 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: was such a big month to me, it made sense. 130 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: You know, I'm anxious more. I'm having nightmares. I wake 131 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: up in the middle of the night. I feel like 132 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: I won't remember the day till it's the day, but 133 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: my body won't let me forget it. 134 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 6: I guess that's really true. I think that would probably 135 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 6: apply to any real loss. Suddenly it's the eight year anniversary. 136 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 6: I know that's been just a few days. It's been 137 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 6: heavy on our hearts as well, and all of them, 138 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 6: all of the victims family is in Pie County in general. 139 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 3: I asked doctor Carroll if it's common for people to 140 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 3: experience exacerbated symptoms around anniversaries. 141 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: Yes, that can happen. You know, anniversary reactions are really interesting. 142 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: A lot of times people aren't aware that SUSI and 143 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 2: such a date is coming up, but then when the 144 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: date happens, all of a sudden, you know, either they're 145 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 2: filling things in their body, they can't get out of 146 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 2: bed or something like that, you know, because they're so depressed, 147 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: or they do something that is totally out of character 148 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: because part of their mind does realize that it is 149 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 2: this anniversary. 150 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 4: You know. 151 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: A good example, of course, is nine to eleven. Every year, 152 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: when the anniversary happens, it triggers memories. And even if 153 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: again even if the people aren't necessarily thinking, right, people are, oh, well, 154 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: September eleventh, when the day comes, I mean, that's a trigger, 155 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 2: of course, But even things like planes flying overhead making 156 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: a loud noise, or what they were eating, for example, 157 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 2: people who were eating a certain thing for breakfast that day, 158 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: and then whenever they have that again, it reminds them 159 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: of that morning when they were eating it, and then 160 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: nine to eleven happened, or they don't have it again 161 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: on purpose. 162 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 3: Stephanie and Whitney continue their conversation about grief and its 163 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 3: cyclical nature. Here again Stephanie, followed by Whitney. 164 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 6: It creeps up on you right suddenly you think you 165 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 6: have it all tucked away, and then that's I guess 166 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 6: the thing about grief, it's a whole. 167 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 4: It's a whole that maybe doesn't have to be filled. 168 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that doesn't ever get filled, but you find 169 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: a way to work around it, I guess. 170 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 171 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: For me, like I went so many years without any 172 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: help out without talking to anybody, Like, no one could 173 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: really relate to what I mean, besides the family obviously, 174 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: but you don't want to go and keep bringing it 175 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: up to them because that's such it's a traumatic thing. 176 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: So trying to find a friend or a friend that 177 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: would even remotely understand what it was like is hard, 178 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: especially at such a young age. It just it's it 179 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: was hard. But therapy has helped me tremendously. I know 180 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: some people just don't. 181 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 6: Don't believe in it, right, they don't know some people 182 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 6: like are resistant to therapy. And we're not condoning it, 183 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 6: we're prescribing it one way or the other. I too, 184 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 6: believe in it. We don't want to burden people with 185 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 6: your grief. You don't want to theme week by, you know, 186 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 6: being on a loop and feeling like you just have 187 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,239 Speaker 6: loss that you can't get out of the way. 188 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: Like it consumes your whole life. I got to the 189 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: point where it felt like my whole this was my 190 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: whole life. I felt like my my world stopped that 191 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: day and I was just stuck in this cycle of 192 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what's gonna happen next, What's going to 193 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: happen next? Or could this happen to me? Is this 194 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 1: gonna happen to me? Who can I trust? Who can 195 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: I not trust? Or my door's locked or my windows locked? 196 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: Am I safe? 197 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 5: I still have that. 198 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: I'm learning to start to trust people. It takes a 199 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: long time, a very long time, and not for me, 200 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: at least, it took a long time. I feel like 201 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: if I had somebody else that I could relate to 202 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: with what was going on, it would probably help me 203 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: a lot more and a lot sooner. 204 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 6: And I think You're not alone in that. I think 205 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 6: that kind of says two things. One granted, both of 206 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 6: these cases, both in Idaho and in Pike, are extreme. Right. 207 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 6: We have heard, like we heard a statistic that the 208 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 6: likelihood of you being in a massacre of this level 209 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 6: or losing someone you love in a manner like this 210 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 6: is as common as being killed by a vending machine 211 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 6: falling on you. It's that rare, right, So, on the 212 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 6: one hand, there's comfort in that these are extreme cases. 213 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 6: But for someone like you, or for any of the 214 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 6: students in Idaho or family members you know, you realize, 215 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 6: like the flame was really close, and it's hard to 216 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 6: reacclimate to the world that you want to be safe 217 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 6: when you realize, huh, the Boogeyman was really close or 218 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,359 Speaker 6: with somebody that I knew. 219 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, or they say like, you know, monsters are not real, 220 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: but they actually you know they are, They really are. 221 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: For me, when I talk about it now, I don't 222 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: feel as a shame like I don't feel like I'm 223 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: being a burden to anybody to talk about it, because 224 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: it did happen to me, and I did have to 225 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: work through it, and I can talk about it, and 226 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: I'm allowed to talk about it. It was such a 227 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: significant thing in my life, and it was such a 228 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: traumatic thing in my life that I'm allowed to feel 229 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: a certain way. I'm allowed to be sad one day, 230 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: I'm allowed to celebrate their life when day. No one 231 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: can tell you you're being too much over something like that. 232 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: No one can tell you how to feel about it. 233 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: No one can tell you, oh, you've been sad long enough, 234 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: We're done. I'm at the point now where instead of grieving, 235 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm still grieving, but I want to remember 236 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: the good things. I want to remember. You know, I 237 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: do have these amazing people in my life. I do 238 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: have pictures to look back on, and I'm allowed to 239 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: watch videos and laugh about in things that we joked 240 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: around about. I'm allowed to say I miss her or 241 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: yeah it's a lot to some people, but the right people, 242 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: it won't be a lot to talk about. 243 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 6: And I think that makes you such an amazing source. 244 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 6: You know, I know one thing for sure that you 245 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 6: do not heal alone. Nobody heals alone. And you don't 246 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 6: have to be connected to a massacre to understand loss 247 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 6: and to have trauma comes in so many shapes and 248 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 6: sizes and in so many different ways. And sometimes people 249 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 6: feel like my pain wouldn't nearly be as big as 250 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 6: their pain. You even thought that for a second. Well, 251 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 6: I'm not the family, so I shouldn't be able to 252 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 6: feel this much pain. Which is you know, grief and 253 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 6: love are so wildly connected, and they're so incredibly closely tied, 254 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 6: and if you stuff that stuff down, it can really 255 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 6: turn on you. It turns on your body, it turns 256 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 6: on your decision making. We start making decisions from a 257 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 6: place of loss as opposed to a place of gain. 258 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 6: Loss is loss. 259 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 4: You might have just a bigger well to pull from from. 260 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 6: Many people listening are sad so they don't have that 261 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 6: best friend like you had in Hannah. 262 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 263 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 3: a moment. I asked doctor Carroll about Whitney's complicated feelings 264 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: of being unable to feel her own grief because she 265 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 3: felt it was so much worse for the victims and 266 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 3: their families. 267 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 2: A part of survivor's guilt is not feeling that you 268 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 2: deserve any treatment, therapy, or any sympathy for what you 269 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: did experience as part of the trauma, and so feeling 270 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: like experiencing grief or experiencing some of the things that 271 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: perhaps the families of the people who were killed and 272 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: so on feel. It feels self indulgent to experience grief 273 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: and to any into you know, when people would say, oh, 274 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: that must be so hard for you to lose your friend, 275 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: and blah blah blah. And of course in her case, 276 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: actually you said she was friends with the people who 277 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: did this. What makes Whitney's case particularly complicated is that 278 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: she feels guilty that she didn't stop it because she 279 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: knew the people who did it. 280 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 3: She has said, why didn't I stop it? Of course, 281 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 3: no way to imagine this would have happened, But yes, 282 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: you're exactly right. 283 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 2: You know, so it's extra extra guilt. It's not just 284 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: that she survived, you know, but she blames herself. It's 285 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: just self blame. I mean, this kind of thing could 286 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: cause not only things like depression, anxiety and all of that, 287 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: but actual physical you know. I hate to say it, 288 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 2: but I mean like things like cancer, things like other 289 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: kinds of diseases or disorders. If you keep showering yourself 290 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: with all of this guilt and blame and you know, 291 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: year upon year, that is very, very unhealthy. It could 292 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: cause all kinds of systems in your body to go bunkers. 293 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 3: As a reminder, we met Whitney while working on the 294 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 3: Pike County documentary. 295 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 6: Do you feel like this by talking even just through 296 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 6: the process of being in a documentary and sort of 297 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 6: talking it out, did that shift things a little bit 298 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 6: for you? 299 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: Well, I mean I was nervous at first to do 300 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: the documentary, but in a way it was kind of 301 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: healing for people to see not only did it affect yes, 302 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: it affected their family, and I could not imagine what 303 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: it would be for a family member, but as a 304 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: close friend, there's just it. It was healing for me 305 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: because people got to see it from my point of view. 306 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: People got to see how not only did the Wagners 307 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: did what they did to the Rodents and the Gillies, 308 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: but it was so many more people than what they 309 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: probably realize. I mean, like I said in the documentary, 310 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: they changed my life that day. Even today, I'm still 311 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: not going to be the same, which it would expect 312 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: someone to be the same right after something like that, 313 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: but no, it was actually kind of healing to be 314 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: able to voice what they did to not only the 315 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: family but to everybody else. 316 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 6: I think that's the whole point of these things, right, 317 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 6: even this podcast, it's like sometimes people assume, oh, it's 318 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 6: just like to unpack a grizzly event, and truly that's 319 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 6: not the case. I think it's two part One, to prevent. 320 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 6: If you don't know that these types of things happen 321 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 6: in the world, it's really hard to avoid them or 322 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 6: identify red flags and things that are really easy to 323 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 6: do in retrospect in somebody else's retrospect. Even so it's 324 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 6: like a safety thing. And then also to keep the 325 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 6: victims alive. In the case of Idaho, not too similarly 326 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 6: to Pie County, that trial still lies ahead. The Idaho 327 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 6: trial looks like it probably will be set for next year. 328 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 6: That's a long time for the general public to lose 329 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 6: sight of the lives and the humans that were lost, 330 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 6: and it's important that we keep them alive because people 331 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 6: should be mad as hell. 332 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, be mad, voice it, be mad. Don't sit and 333 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: think that they won. No one's won yet. No one 334 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: has won a single thing until that day. And that's 335 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: another thing, is that feeling if and when justice comes 336 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: is a feeling no one will ever understand that has 337 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: that they've not had to be through. You might cry, 338 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: you might scream, and if you feel you need to 339 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: do that, do it. 340 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 3: In the Pikes in Ohio case, three of the four 341 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 3: accused murderers have been found or pled guilty. One member's 342 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 3: trial is still upcoming. 343 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: When we got the partial justice that we have. I mean, 344 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: I was pregnant at the time, but if I could 345 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: have been out in my yard jumping around and pop models, 346 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: you know, I would have done it. But yeah, I 347 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: mean there's just so many emotions that come with that 348 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: part too. You have all this grief and then this 349 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: happens and it's like you're you just can't contain it. 350 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: It made me feel like we accomplished something it wasn't. 351 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: And no, it doesn't bring them back. That was one 352 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: hard feeling I had. It doesn't bring them back, but 353 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: they got the justice they deserved. 354 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 4: What would you say? 355 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 6: Would you have any words of advice to anyone who's 356 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 6: gone through this level of trauma or some level of trauma, 357 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 6: whether that's they're a victim of a violent crime, or 358 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 6: someone they love very deeply is the victim of a 359 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 6: violent crime, or in your case too, you had it 360 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 6: in both sides because you knew the victim and the perpetrator. 361 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 4: Well, that's also equally scary. 362 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 6: You know, you shared space with someone, you were texting 363 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 6: with someone in the days after the murderers who was like. 364 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 4: I have no idea. Hopefully they find the killer. 365 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 6: Meanwhile, you're the killer by your own admission. Do you 366 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 6: have any advice for anyone who's just kind of stuck 367 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 6: in their head and doesn't have anyone to speak to 368 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 6: about their feelings? 369 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 4: How do you process? 370 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you're not alone. When this happened with Hannah 371 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: and the Rodents, I felt alone and it took me 372 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: a while to realize I wasn't alone. Always reach out 373 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: reach out to anybody that you trust anyone that you're 374 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: comfortable with. Take your time. It's all about your time. 375 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: Like it's all about time. Do not think you're alone. 376 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: You can always reach out, even if it's me. You know, 377 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: anyone could ever reach out, because I've been in it. 378 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: I don't care if it would be three in the morning, 379 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: like please call you know. I needed that person. And 380 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: so instead of moping around thinking, oh, I really wish 381 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: I had somebody, I I want to be that person 382 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: for somebody. So there's anything. That's all I can really 383 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: think to say is just you're not alone. 384 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 6: If you've now enrolled in school to become a social 385 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 6: worker and a victim's advocate. And we all like to 386 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 6: believe that in some part it is because you shared 387 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 6: so much on the case that you know, people really 388 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 6: were touched in a way that can't quite be described, 389 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 6: myself included. 390 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 4: And I think we all get to heal with you. 391 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 6: And I think now you know that's obviously a calling 392 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 6: for you. If people want to connect with you, you 393 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 6: can send us any emails or any information via the 394 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 6: KT Studio's website and we'll make sure that it gets 395 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 6: to you. 396 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 4: And obviously, now that you've gone to school. 397 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 6: You're like, legitimately becoming the exact thing that you is 398 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 6: pretty magical stuff. And I can't help but think that 399 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 6: that's Hannah Gilly at play as your guiding light a 400 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 6: little bit. 401 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 402 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 3: a moment. 403 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 6: Here again, Stephanie, you were dead on about survivor's guilt, 404 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 6: and that's something that we're kind of unpacking a little 405 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 6: bit in this There were two surviving roommates at the 406 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 6: time of the Idaho massacre, and it's really a big 407 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 6: topic that gets me a bit fired up because I've 408 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 6: read a lot of chatter online and there's been a 409 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 6: lot on TikTok and in various various online silly sources 410 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 6: that kind of give the roommates a lot of slack. 411 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,479 Speaker 6: They're like, well, why didn't the roommates call nine one 412 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 6: to one and why did it take nine hours to 413 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 6: finally get authorities there? 414 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: And while I understand that theoretically, it. 415 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 6: Really lack the level of empathy because until you know 416 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 6: what happened, and really nobody does at this point. That night, 417 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 6: one of the roommates allegedly saw the accused Brian Colberger, 418 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 6: going down the hallway, and she identified him to have 419 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 6: bushy eyebrows. At that moment, he would have been covered 420 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 6: in complete blood and likely would have just murdered four people. 421 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 6: You don't expect there to be a killer in the hallway, right, 422 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 6: You don't think, oh, this must to be a mass murderer. 423 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 4: We don't know. 424 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 6: We don't know what it's like to be in that situation, 425 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 6: and we certainly shouldn't throw stones at two people who 426 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 6: have really survived something so horrible and likely or really suffering. 427 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 4: This is an assumption. I don't know them, but survivor's 428 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 4: guilt is what comes to mind. 429 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: You don't know how fast that passing by was in 430 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: our heads at slow mo, Oh, here's this guy walking by. 431 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: She's looking in your head when you don't know the 432 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: actual setup. You weren't there in my head. It's like 433 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: a slow motion picture, like you know, like a movie. 434 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: But how fast did they go by each other? You know, 435 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: how dark was it in the hallway? How do you 436 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: know what was on them? I mean, yeah, they're probably 437 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: drenched in blood, but that's not something you see on 438 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,719 Speaker 1: a regular basis, So you're not going to look for that. 439 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: You're not going to notice it probably, especially if it 440 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: was dark, being college students, who knows who would be 441 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: coming in and out. There's so many different scenarios in 442 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: that shock does crazy things to you and now knowing 443 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: what they know. I couldn't imagine being that person who 444 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: now knowing and feeling like you didn't do something even 445 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 1: though you didn't know what was going on. It's not 446 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: your fault, it's not anyone's fault besides the person who 447 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,479 Speaker 1: did it. So don't feel that guilt that is that 448 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: survivor guilt is I could have done something, I should 449 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: have done something, and I didn't, but I also didn't 450 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: know what was going on, and how could you? 451 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:09,719 Speaker 4: How could you? 452 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 6: Like, the brain is not committed to understanding something so violent, 453 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 6: it's so outside our realm that that's not what you 454 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 6: probably connect. 455 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 4: That got very easily. 456 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: And you're at home, you think you're safe. 457 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 4: You think you're safe. Yeah, that's very true. And for 458 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 4: people to please show some empathy, some empathy that whoever 459 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 4: has survived this, you know that's a long journey ahead, 460 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 4: and you have this guilt that you know, why them 461 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 4: not me? Or how does my life go on? It's 462 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 4: such a mind screw. 463 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: Or they should be here. Why am I here but 464 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: not them? Why wasn't I one that they took? You know, 465 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: it's there's so much that goes with surviving something like this. 466 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 6: There's a lot, and our hearts go out to them 467 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 6: as well, and we kind of encourage people to to 468 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 6: do so as well. If anything, they just need healing 469 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 6: thoughts their way. Yeah, anything that you would say for 470 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 6: any of the college students or yeah, anybody who maybe 471 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 6: brushed paths. We interviewed very recently one of the accused 472 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 6: students because he was a teacher's assistant and she was 473 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 6: in his class in the days leading up to the 474 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 6: murders and the days after. If what he's been accused 475 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 6: of is true, and again he's claiming innocence, If what 476 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 6: is being said is accurate, then he went to class 477 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 6: the next day and was still participating. And that a 478 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 6: little bit makes me think of Jake Wagner. 479 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 4: You know, kind of hits home right now. Hits home. 480 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, And I was curious if you had something because 481 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 6: again the accused now convicted, Jake Wagner and the Pie 482 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 6: County murders. You spoke with him and connected with him 483 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 6: right after the murders. 484 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 4: I did. 485 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: I told him if he needed anything, and he told me, 486 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: you know, I just don't know how I'm gonna go on. 487 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: I don't know how I'm gonna tell my daughter that, 488 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, her mom is Knellinger here. After finding out 489 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: about Jake and then talking to him, it's kind of 490 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: like a oh my goodness, you know, like, wow, you 491 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: played it so well. You played everybody. Not everyone is 492 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: like that. Not everyone would be able to do that. 493 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: So someone that's able to come in and act like 494 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: nothing is wrong, or to know what they did and 495 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: act like nothing is wrong, they are sick and twisted. 496 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 6: Is there anything that you would like to say to 497 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 6: the victims' families or friends? 498 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry, you know, it's it's not easy 499 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: to go through. And you guys are not alone. Sorry, 500 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: a little emotional, but you're not alone, and don't ever 501 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: feel like you are. And I know there's gonna be 502 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: days that it's so hard, it's so hard to get up, 503 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: and it's so hard to go on, and it's gonna 504 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: be so hard to just to just live. I get it, 505 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: and I get that there are days that you want 506 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: to just go to where this person is and destroy 507 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: their life. But there is some good in this system. 508 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 4: There will. 509 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: I hope and I pray that you guys get the 510 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: justice you guys need and deserve, even though it doesn't 511 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: bring them back. That justice is good and it feels good. 512 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: And my biggest thing is you're just not alone, because 513 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: for the longest time I felt alone and it took 514 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: me a long time to realize I wasn't. So even 515 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: though it's been eight years that day it's still so 516 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: fresh to me. So I just I know how you 517 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: guys feel. I've been there, still working on it to 518 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: get better, even though it doesn't seem like it and 519 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: it seems like, gosh, this is never gonna I'll never 520 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: be the same. You might not, and that is okay, 521 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: but you will. You will find a whole new you 522 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: from this. 523 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 6: Can you tell me one quick story about Hannah Gilly 524 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 6: but just in her honor? Is there anything that immediately 525 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 6: comes to mind? 526 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: There's a song, there's a country song that says her 527 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: long blonde hair, and that she loved that song because 528 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: it was long blonde. How every time I hear that, 529 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: I think of her, And sometimes I'll I'll be listening 530 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: to a station that doesn't play country music. But then 531 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: that song comes on, I'm like, ah Anna, I'm like, 532 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: I miss you too. 533 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,479 Speaker 6: I love to see you smile, and I'm so stinking 534 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 6: proud of you. You are a real inspiration, you really are, 535 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 6: and I'm so excited to see what comes next for you. 536 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 6: So here's to like, you know, passing the baton on 537 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 6: and helping others. There's nobody better than you to do it. 538 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 6: And our hearts and prayers are with all of the 539 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 6: victims of the Idaho massacre and of course in Pike 540 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 6: County as well, and we send you all of our 541 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 6: love and then them thank you for taking the time. 542 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 4: Sorry to have you crying in your car right now, but. 543 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: Listen, I just know, I know it's how it feels. 544 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: It just makes me a little emotional because I don't 545 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: want anybody to feel that way, to feel like, Josh, 546 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: this is it, because I've been there, and it's not fun. 547 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: It's not a fun feeling, it's not a You guys 548 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: are not alone, trust me, You guys are not a loade. 549 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 4: And you will smile again at some point. 550 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: Yes, you will get your spark back, is what I 551 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: like to say. I'm starting to get my spark. 552 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 3: Back more on that next time. For more information on 553 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 3: the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at 554 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 3: kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leedeger, 555 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 3: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design 556 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 3: by Jeff Torois. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker 557 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 3: is a production of Katy's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more 558 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 3: podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 559 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.