WEBVTT - General Strike with Kim Kelly 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:12.400 Also media Welcome to it could Happen Here, a podcast 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.920 in which my friend Kim Kelly and I talk about 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:18.919 the fact that Zoom recently moved to the record button, 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.080 which most people will need at some point, given how 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:25.320 prominent this is with podcasting, to replace it with an 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.680 AI companion button, which I refuse to use and would 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.680 would would deploy violence against anyone who tried to make me. 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:33.720 How are you doing to day, Cam? 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.440 I am good, also hating our AI soon to be overlords. 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.800 Yeah yeah, doing my best out here in Philadelphia? 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.400 Yeah yeah, Philly? How is how is Philly? As the 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:47.080 as the fall comes in. 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:52.720 It's it's a very sunny day. It's also getting chilly. 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.440 I'm into it. It's finally leather weather. I mean, I 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.400 guess it's always leather weather, depending on your level of commitment, 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.240 but I am, yeah, was and it's I tend to 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.840 wait for, you know, the weather to tell me when 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:07.200 it's time to break out my leather. 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.640 Hell yeah, you know, I feel like all all things 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.800 are fine personally. You should just assume listeners that I 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:20.240 am always head to toe leather. But anyway, Oh yeah, 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:25.360 Katy is on. He looks resplendent, yeah, Kim, you are 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.760 a labor journalist. You published a book what was it 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:33.440 last year, year before last, called fight Like Hell yea yeah, 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.920 about about the history of the labor movement and some 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.679 radical moments people ought to know more about. And you 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:44.560 and I are talking today about labor, particularly about the 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.840 possibility of a general strike. Now if you the listener 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:52.560 have somehow missed this discourse. In short, a general strike 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.960 is when instead of one union of workers from one 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.040 industry striking, everybody strikes at least, you know, a very 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.760 significant chunk of the labor force strikes. And this is 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.800 you know, it's the kind of thing people on the 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:07.800 left have dreamed about four years as like this is 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.880 what could you know, turn things around, reduce income inequality, 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.120 force action on climate change, the military industrial complex, and 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.720 kind of as a result, you've had feels like every 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.080 year for the last few years since people started reading 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.560 about general strikes, which have occurred in a number of 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.120 places and times, there's these like someone will get on 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.160 Twitter and be like, we're all doing a general strike 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.520 in two weeks, you know, everybody get ready, and folks 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.200 will be like, that's not really how you do a 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.000 general strike, and they'll go like, well, if you weren't 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:37.880 saying it's not, it could happen. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:39.399 You know, you've got to believe. 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.880 In it first, which is all of this is wrong. 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.200 But the good news is there's an actual plan that 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:51.560 is cohesive and potentially achievable for a general strike that's 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.760 been put forward by someone who knows what he's talking about. 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:56.760 We're going to talk about that, but first, Kim, do 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:58.799 you want to talk about why trying to get everyone 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.920 on Twitter to launch a gineral strike in eight days 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.320 is a bad idea? 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.519 This is such a pent peeve among well, I guess 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:11.720 a lot of folks in the labor world who are 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.840 also unfortunately on Twitter and social media that yeah, like 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.440 you said, every so often there'll be a general strike 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:22.760 hashtag or like a graphic on Twitter or on Instagram, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.640 and it's like, are you taking part of the general strike? 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:30.960 Like are you striking on Friday or like tomorrow? Like no, what, 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.800 You're not even in a union? What are you talking about? 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.160 And it's like I love the energy, I love the vibe, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.040 you know, I love the idea of a general strike. 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.720 I think it would be incredible if we actually pulled 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.400 it off. But the biggest thing in there is the 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:53.360 if followed by the pulled it off part. And one 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.520 of the biggest misconceptions I think is that a general 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:01.360 strike is akin to a big protest. Like you can 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.720 absolutely plan a big protest in a few days if 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:06.600 you really want to. I mean, look at the incredible 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.720 work that Jewish Force for Piece has been doing in 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.600 New York and other places. They're going to be doing 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.200 in Philly this week. I mean, it is possible to 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:19.280 build on existing relationships and networks to create a big 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.440 fucking deal of a protest. But a general strike is 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.720 a different beast. It is a specific thing. It has 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.480 a definition. A general strike, as you said, is when 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.480 workers across various industries go on strike at the same time, 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:36.240 and that is not the same as filling the streets 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:40.080 for a protest. It would be sick if we can 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:44.600 kind of meld those movements like the radical radical organizers 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.360 who are already in community, already building protests infrastructure, and 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.680 people in union labor world that are kind of beholden 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.480 to contracts and more legal constraints. But it's going to 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.320 take a little bit of time. It's going to take 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.719 some dialogue, maybe even some fruitful discourse to get on 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.800 the same page. Like they're like, there are laws. We 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.520 live in a society, unfortunately, and it's it's not quite 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.800 as simple as just declaring a general strike when you're like, 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.160 for your friends call out sick. 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:16.880 Yeah, And it's also like, I think one thing that 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.159 gets lost is when you're going on strike. For a 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.640 lot of people, that's not just I have to figure 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.279 out what to do with money, and it's certainly not 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.280 you know, while I can just go and be on 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.240 unemployment or something, because you don't really get that when 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.599 you're striking. You've got a lot of people with like families, 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.880 and so the idea that like you get some podcaster 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.600 right being like everybody should just not show up, Well, 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:43.760 I don't know, man. There's people who got kids. They 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.760 have other responsibilities than being a part of your revolution. 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.360 Which is not to say that I don't think I Like, again, 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.560 we're about to talk about an achievable plan for a 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:54.240 general strike, but one of the reasons why you can't 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.279 can't pull it off in a couple of days is 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.400 that you have to set you have to have some 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.120 sort of plan for how you're going to take care 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.000 of the people striking, right, like so they don't starve 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:04.400 and shit. 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.320 Yeah, that is one of the biggest things, I would say, 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.200 arguably the biggest thing. But also if you're in a 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.120 union and you go on strike as part of you know, 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.520 broken down contract negotiations are part of the life cycle 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:20.159 of a union contract. You have legal protections. You can't 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.280 just be fired if you take part in one of 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:28.240 these kind of impromptu hashtag general strike actions. Your boss 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.960 is just gonna fire you, yeah, and then like you're done. 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.960 You don't have any protections there, Like one of the 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.000 reasons that and I know it's not as much fun. 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:39.680 It's just going out and saying fuck it and bring 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.240 it all down. Trust me, I would love to see 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.680 that type of shit, but unfortunately, again we live constrained 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:51.200 by laws and like logic when it comes like the 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.440 reason that you see big labor strikes and big picket 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.039 lines and all this cool stuff that's happening, like there 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:02.200 is part of a process. Those unions are negotiating contracts, 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:06.200 these legally binding documents. They're collective bargaining agreements that have 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.960 expiration dates. You know, the UAW didn't just pick you 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.640 didn't just say all right, right, now we're mad, we're 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.480 going to go on strike. Like no, their previous agreements 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.520 had expiration date. They hit the expiration date, so they 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.240 start bargaining again. Bargaining didn't go well, they went on strike. 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:25.400 That is how it works when you're in a union. 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.800 That's like just part and parcel of the push and 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.520 pool of leverage that workers have against the boss. And 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.200 it's like a century's old system, Like there's laws, there's protections, 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.000 there's a lot that goes into it. And I think 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.240 we're saying before we hopped on the call officially, like 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.520 I think a lot of people haven't had union jobs 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.600 or didn't don't have a deep understanding of unions and 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.720 how they work. So of course they wouldn't necessarily know 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.960 when the expiration dating is for this contract or what 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:59.239 goes into bargaining union contract. But there's there's a lot 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:00.960 of moving parts. 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.560 Yes might they might not know that, as we're about 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:05.680 to talk about, you can't just have a bunch of 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:07.800 union leaders decide we're all going to go on strike 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:12.280 at once. Sympathy strikes are very much not legal. Now 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.920 there is a way to get multiple We should just 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:16.800 talk about like why we're doing this, which is that. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:21.560 So there's this fella who so far has seems like 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:25.440 a pretty pretty head out screwed on straight solid dude, 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:28.920 Sean Fain, who is Big Sean, Yeah, Big Sean. And 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:30.960 he's like the he's the he's the head of the 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.520 u a W. Right or he's like the guy negotiating 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:34.280 for the ua W. 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:35.880 No, he's the president, Yeah. 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.280 The president, and he is Sean Is. So he's you know, 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.319 the UAW is the big one of the big otto 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.400 like the largest of the auto worker like related unions, 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.319 and they have been in a strike I think primarily 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:50.960 General Motors. 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.440 It's the big three General Motors, Ford as Stelanis which 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:56.720 makes Chrysler, and a couple of other brands. 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.440 Yeah, and they they have gone on a very power 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.760 about six weeks or so, very significant strike. You can 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.960 read stuff like Toyota recently like put out a proposal 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.719 for like giving workers raises that's in line with like 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.760 the union of like they are scared and it looks 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.679 like like as I mean this is they haven't inked 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.720 anything yet, but as of us recording this, it looks 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:23.360 like they've won on a lot, which is great. And 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.800 Sean is is not just a you know, a union man, 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.800 but is very much a t talking blatantly about the 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.600 class war of the rich against everybody else that's occurring 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.319 in this country. And he made some statements about two 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.560 days before we recorded this where he was like, I think, 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.240 you know what, we need to be setting the date, 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.400 the expiration date for our contract in twenty twenty eight, 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.680 and I want to implore all other you know, unions 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.120 that are negotiating and can do this, to set that 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.200 with their next contract expiration date, so that in twenty 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.480 twenty eight we have the option to do a general 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.240 strike in order to redress some of this, to make 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.199 inequalities as a result of this war of the billionaires 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.280 against everybody else. Very much framed it in those kind 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.600 of stark terms, and you know, we're going to talk 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:13.120 about why. But I think that's a workable plan potentially. 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.559 It really is. It's incredible. Honestly, this is kind of 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.920 I think this is one of the ballsiest things we've 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:25.679 heard from a mainstream labor leader since well since Sarah Nelson, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.640 the president of the Flight Attendants Union, kind of soft 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:31.960 called for a general strike or at least brought up 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.120 the idea of a general strike in twenty nineteen, and 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:35.839 they're doing that. 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.319 I've forgotten that stopped a government shutdown. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.880 Yeah, So, like, the general strike is a very powerful tool, 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.400 and we've done it before, you know. I think the 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.280 most recent true general strike we saw this country was 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.119 like nineteen nineteen in Seattle. Yea, so it's been a minute. 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.720 But the genius of this plan is the fact that 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.680 it's illegal. And I mean, of course, you know, laws 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:03.960 aren't real, but when you're doing this kind of thing 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:07.719 and operating within these constraints, it is helpful when you're 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.160 not actively breaking the law, because that helps you get 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.520 more shit done. Right, So what Sean is proposing is saying, Okay, 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.440 we're gonna set our contract to expire around this time, 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.120 and we want a whole bunch of other big ingers 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.079 to do the same thing. Now, if all of their 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.520 union contracts happen to expire around the same time, and 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:30.319 then their negotiations happen to break down and they happen 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:34.200 to go on strike at the same time, creating an 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.880 actual general strike, the government can't really do shit about it. 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.960 I mean, you mentioned before the sympathy strikes, solidarity strikes. 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.440 They are illegal because of this nineteen forty seven law 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:50.559 called out the taff Hartley Act. Essentially, that means if 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.640 say you're your warehouse, you're part of the teamsers, you 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.080 go on strike, and then the coffee shop next door 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:58.599 is like, oh, yeah, we support you, We're going to 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.720 go on strike too. They can't do that, that's breaking 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.960 the law. But in this different hypothetical, if they their 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.200 contract was up at the same time as your contract, 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.880 you both want to strike at the same time, that's legal, 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.400 and it's also very disruptive to that little corridor you're 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.760 working in. And imagine doing that on a national level. 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:22.120 Imagine if the flight attendants, the teamsters, the UAW, Starbucks 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:27.920 fucking the air traffic controllers, the longshoreman, like all of 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:33.200 these incredibly important infrastructure wise jobs happened to go on 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.199 strike at the same time. That would shut down the 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.080 whole fucking country. Yeah, and it would be legal, which 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:42.240 is so fun. I'd love to see it. 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.040 You know. Obviously, when you are talking about radical social change, 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.680 illegality is always on the table, but it's not the 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.640 smartest place to start from when you're talking about something 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:56.440 like this where you have the option to get a 0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:00.920 lot done, you know, within within the protection of the law, 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.319 which makes it easier to get more people on board. 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.920 It makes it easier to get critical mass. And if 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.720 at a later date, you know, the state were to 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.679 take a legal action that makes it impossible for you 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.680 to continue legally, well, then you've got that critical mass 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.640 behind you and potentially probably radicalized, you know. 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.320 Right, And you have resources, you have infrastructure, because big 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.400 unions have big striketh funds. Yes, this is the thing 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.480 that UAW has hundreds of millions of dollars in the 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.559 bank that they're saving for just this purpose when their 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:34.840 workers go on striketh, so they can continue to pay 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:36.880 them and cover their health insurance. 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.160 Yeah, that's why you pay dues, right, Like. 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.640 Yeah, it's literally like strike insurance. And a lot of 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.160 the big unions have this set up. They have comms teams, 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:50.120 they have legal teams, they have experience like I known 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.760 as radicals, Like we tend to be perhaps a little 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.560 allergic to a lot of those things, especially if they're 0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.960 not particularly in line with our specific vision of the few, 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:05.480 but they're really helpful to have, you know, Like, doing 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.040 crimes is fun and I support it pretty much at 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:12.080 all times. But getting shit done is way more fun 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.479 and way more satisfying. 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:16.320 You know, it's nice to win. 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:18.520 It's nice to win. 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.880 Unions are kind of on a role right now, right there. 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:26.560 We've all watched some really substantial gains for working people 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.960 just in the last six months, and it's worth paying 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.000 attention to why. And part of it is that, like, 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:38.120 you're not relying upon people risking everything, many of whom 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.800 can't write. You can't very easily ethically defend if you 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:47.000 are like a single parent who is responsible for multiple children. 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:49.720 You can't defend going out and busting a bunch of 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.120 windows and then getting locked up super easy, because you 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.080 do you have responsibilities. You've got people to care for, you. 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.600 Know, right you have elders at home, if you're or 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.840 if you're a disabled person, if you're meding a compromise, 0:14:59.880 --> 0:15:01.880 you you can't go out there and get involved in 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:02.800 that type of situation. 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.000 You can't risk being around that many people. Maybe, but 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.240 you can strike. Yeah, yeah, this is that. 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.640 You can respect a picket line, You can help support, 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.440 you can help offer some of the resources we need 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:17.120 for folks to get out there, like utilizing this existing infrastructure, 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.400 in these existing resources. It just opens up the possibility 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.560 for more people to get involved in a way that's 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.640 less harmful to them, to the people like we want 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.800 to harm the bosses, and you know the status quote, 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:30.280 we don't want to hurt our people. 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.040 Yeah. So I think there's a lot of wisdom in this. Now. 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.320 The question is when we say that this is workable, 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:50.040 does that mean that like it's a guarantee or it 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.320 would be easy? Of course not. No, like you're talking 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.800 you're still talking about a struggle against people who have 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.640 I don't know the majority of the resources the human 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:03.280 race has ever marshalled in like a financial form right 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:05.880 at their beck in call. So that's you know, this 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:10.600 is still a frightening and potentially pretty dangerous thing, but 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.840 it is a workable plan that has infrastructure behind it, 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.880 and that crucially, you know, the downside is that the 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.280 bosses know that people are talking about this and they 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.520 have time to prepare. But the nice side is that like, 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:28.200 well so do we, and that's generally positive. 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.200 This is the thing I've seen again on social media 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.680 people saying like, oh, we have to wait five years, 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:36.720 we have to wait four and a half years. That's ridiculous. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.080 Why don't we just do it now. You can do 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.840 a lot of planning and a lot of building in 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.760 four and a half years. You need that time to 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.280 actually pull something off of this magnitude. And also, I 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.320 mean a lot of unions that perhaps might be interested 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.120 in this, like they have contracts of their own that 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.680 we need. They need to sort of work out the 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.560 timing for you know, this plan only works if we 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.640 can actually maneuver away for a lot of these big 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.800 contracts that big powerful unions to expire at the same time, 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.800 if someone's contract, if the team SERTs, next contract expires 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.680 in twenty twenty seven, like okay, I think they're not 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.800 gonna be able to play ball, and you really want 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:18.600 the teamsters if you want to play this type of game. 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.679 And then another hurdle that I think it's it's unfortunate 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.359 is that you know Sean Fame, Big Sean A what 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:31.960 a man. He's very out there and very outspoken about 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:37.199 opposing capitalism, about this being class war. He's on the level, 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:42.480 but he is a rarity among major labor union leaders. 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.600 Like there are some leaders that would be down to clown, 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.080 you know, like Sarah Nelson's out here, like Mark Diamondstein 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.480 with the postal workers. Like there are some very cool, 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.639 very progressive, if not radical union leaders out there, but 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.520 there's also a lot of conservative or just of wishy 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:05.280 washy Democrats style union leaders too that would not want 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.280 to have any part of this, and a big part 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:10.880 of convincing them to get on the level and become 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:12.960 involved in this kind of effort that's going to come 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.560 down to what the rank and file have to say. 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.439 That's going to come that that pressure is going to 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.760 have to come up through the ranks. I mean, the 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.560 reason we have Sean Fain and we have Sean ol 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.080 brien and the Teamsters, and we have this kind of 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.600 newer wave of more progressive mills that union leadership is 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.000 because of what the rank and file have done, Like 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.560 Teamster's for Democratic Union organized for years to get that 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.280 reform slaid in, to get Sean O'Brien in there to 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:43.040 take on ups. Sean Fayne is the first ever democratically 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:47.120 elected union leader in uaw's history because of a lot 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.199 of organizing around reform that came from the rank and 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.760 file that took years to get him there. We would 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.440 not have Big Sean if people had not invested years 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.240 of their life towards organizing for this goal. And so 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.200 now we have this four to five year span where 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.120 we can push our own union leaders in that right 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.960 direction to plant those seeds, to try and really build 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.520 something that they can't refuse to get on board with. 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.200 But that's going to take time too. I think people 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.600 need to really recognize that, like, unions are not unfortunately 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:23.240 they're all like these magical progressive silver bullets, Like there 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.720 are no previ shitty people in union leadership across the country, 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.080 and we got to do something about if we really 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:30.480 want to get people on board. 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.919 Yeah, there's there's you know, upsides and downsides when we 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.879 compare it to like sort of how radicals like to 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:42.399 particularly the anarchist radical organizing, where you know, the downside 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.840 is you do these are organizations that are hierarchical. They 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.560 can be stratified. It can make it very difficult to 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.880 push for change. It can make them Just as our 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.399 democracy is not super responsive to what the majority people want, 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:01.480 union leadership in a number of cases is not responsive 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.000 to what people want. They've also had, especially if you 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.920 go back to like you know, the mid century, last 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:11.840 century not short history of corruption, right, that's been a 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:13.840 problem you needs have dealt with in the past. Two 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.240 These are issues you don't have as much with autonomously 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:21.719 organized you know, small groups of activists on the street. 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.560 The thing that makes them a lot stronger in many 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.840 ways is the fact that they have more resources to marshall. 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:33.240 They have ways of addressing grievances other than like kind 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.240 of just personal conflicts that are built into the system, 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.239 and ways of kind of pushing for change that if 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.960 you get enough people on board with you can make 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.879 And then you have the weight of this organization with 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.479 a degree of power and social cachet behind it, And 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:55.439 so I think the ability it's much harder to steer 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:57.520 these things, but when you get them pointed in the 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:01.719 right direction, they have more daying power than kind of 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.760 small autonomous groups usually do. And I think there's a 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.280 lot of potential power in that, which is why I 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:10.960 think this is a workable plan. 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:14.920 And this is why more anarchists and socialist and communists, 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.280 everybody who wants to really get out there and cause 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.359 some good trouble will say, like, you need to get 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:25.159 involved in your union, You need to organize your workplace. 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.200 If your job is not such that you can join 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.160 a traditional union. You need to get involved in your 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.440 local labor community anyway and try and connect with people 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:37.320 who are part of those unions and try and kind 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.720 of get them to see the light. You need to 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.000 talk to people not online in person. You got to 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:45.080 go talk to people who are different from me, who 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.000 might have different politics, and try and get them to 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.320 see why this is something that we could do that 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.600 could help them, that could help everyone. This is something 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.880 I emphasize a lot because I'm like, I'm an anarchist too, 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:58.280 even though i know it's not like a big old 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:00.879