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Speaker 1: Also media Welcome to it could Happen Here, a podcast

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Speaker 1: in which my friend Kim Kelly and I talk about

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Speaker 1: the fact that Zoom recently moved to the record button,

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Speaker 1: which most people will need at some point, given how

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Speaker 1: prominent this is with podcasting, to replace it with an

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Speaker 1: AI companion button, which I refuse to use and would

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Speaker 1: would would deploy violence against anyone who tried to make me.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing to day, Cam?

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Speaker 2: I am good, also hating our AI soon to be overlords.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, doing my best out here in Philadelphia?

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Philly? How is how is Philly? As the

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Speaker 1: as the fall comes in.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a very sunny day. It's also getting chilly.

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Speaker 2: I'm into it. It's finally leather weather. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: guess it's always leather weather, depending on your level of commitment,

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Speaker 2: but I am, yeah, was and it's I tend to

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Speaker 2: wait for, you know, the weather to tell me when

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Speaker 2: it's time to break out my leather.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah, you know, I feel like all all things

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Speaker 1: are fine personally. You should just assume listeners that I

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Speaker 1: am always head to toe leather. But anyway, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: Katy is on. He looks resplendent, yeah, Kim, you are

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Speaker 1: a labor journalist. You published a book what was it

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Speaker 1: last year, year before last, called fight Like Hell yea yeah,

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Speaker 1: about about the history of the labor movement and some

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Speaker 1: radical moments people ought to know more about. And you

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Speaker 1: and I are talking today about labor, particularly about the

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Speaker 1: possibility of a general strike. Now if you the listener

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Speaker 1: have somehow missed this discourse. In short, a general strike

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Speaker 1: is when instead of one union of workers from one

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Speaker 1: industry striking, everybody strikes at least, you know, a very

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Speaker 1: significant chunk of the labor force strikes. And this is

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Speaker 1: you know, it's the kind of thing people on the

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Speaker 1: left have dreamed about four years as like this is

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Speaker 1: what could you know, turn things around, reduce income inequality,

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Speaker 1: force action on climate change, the military industrial complex, and

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Speaker 1: kind of as a result, you've had feels like every

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Speaker 1: year for the last few years since people started reading

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Speaker 1: about general strikes, which have occurred in a number of

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Speaker 1: places and times, there's these like someone will get on

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Speaker 1: Twitter and be like, we're all doing a general strike

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Speaker 1: in two weeks, you know, everybody get ready, and folks

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Speaker 1: will be like, that's not really how you do a

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Speaker 1: general strike, and they'll go like, well, if you weren't

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Speaker 1: saying it's not, it could happen.

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Speaker 2: You know, you've got to believe.

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Speaker 1: In it first, which is all of this is wrong.

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Speaker 1: But the good news is there's an actual plan that

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Speaker 1: is cohesive and potentially achievable for a general strike that's

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Speaker 1: been put forward by someone who knows what he's talking about.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that, but first, Kim, do

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Speaker 1: you want to talk about why trying to get everyone

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Speaker 1: on Twitter to launch a gineral strike in eight days

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Speaker 1: is a bad idea?

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Speaker 2: This is such a pent peeve among well, I guess

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Speaker 2: a lot of folks in the labor world who are

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Speaker 2: also unfortunately on Twitter and social media that yeah, like

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Speaker 2: you said, every so often there'll be a general strike

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Speaker 2: hashtag or like a graphic on Twitter or on Instagram,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, are you taking part of the general strike?

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Speaker 2: Like are you striking on Friday or like tomorrow? Like no, what,

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Speaker 2: You're not even in a union? What are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: And it's like I love the energy, I love the vibe,

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Speaker 2: you know, I love the idea of a general strike.

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Speaker 2: I think it would be incredible if we actually pulled

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Speaker 2: it off. But the biggest thing in there is the

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Speaker 2: if followed by the pulled it off part. And one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest misconceptions I think is that a general

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Speaker 2: strike is akin to a big protest. Like you can

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Speaker 2: absolutely plan a big protest in a few days if

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Speaker 2: you really want to. I mean, look at the incredible

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Speaker 2: work that Jewish Force for Piece has been doing in

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Speaker 2: New York and other places. They're going to be doing

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Speaker 2: in Philly this week. I mean, it is possible to

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Speaker 2: build on existing relationships and networks to create a big

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Speaker 2: fucking deal of a protest. But a general strike is

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Speaker 2: a different beast. It is a specific thing. It has

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Speaker 2: a definition. A general strike, as you said, is when

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Speaker 2: workers across various industries go on strike at the same time,

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Speaker 2: and that is not the same as filling the streets

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Speaker 2: for a protest. It would be sick if we can

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Speaker 2: kind of meld those movements like the radical radical organizers

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Speaker 2: who are already in community, already building protests infrastructure, and

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Speaker 2: people in union labor world that are kind of beholden

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Speaker 2: to contracts and more legal constraints. But it's going to

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Speaker 2: take a little bit of time. It's going to take

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Speaker 2: some dialogue, maybe even some fruitful discourse to get on

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Speaker 2: the same page. Like they're like, there are laws. We

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Speaker 2: live in a society, unfortunately, and it's it's not quite

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Speaker 2: as simple as just declaring a general strike when you're like,

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Speaker 2: for your friends call out sick.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also like, I think one thing that

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Speaker 1: gets lost is when you're going on strike. For a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, that's not just I have to figure

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Speaker 1: out what to do with money, and it's certainly not

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Speaker 1: you know, while I can just go and be on

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Speaker 1: unemployment or something, because you don't really get that when

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Speaker 1: you're striking. You've got a lot of people with like families,

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Speaker 1: and so the idea that like you get some podcaster

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Speaker 1: right being like everybody should just not show up, Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, man. There's people who got kids. They

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Speaker 1: have other responsibilities than being a part of your revolution.

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Speaker 1: Which is not to say that I don't think I Like, again,

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Speaker 1: we're about to talk about an achievable plan for a

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Speaker 1: general strike, but one of the reasons why you can't

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Speaker 1: can't pull it off in a couple of days is

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Speaker 1: that you have to set you have to have some

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Speaker 1: sort of plan for how you're going to take care

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Speaker 1: of the people striking, right, like so they don't starve

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Speaker 1: and shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is one of the biggest things, I would say,

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Speaker 2: arguably the biggest thing. But also if you're in a

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Speaker 2: union and you go on strike as part of you know,

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Speaker 2: broken down contract negotiations are part of the life cycle

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Speaker 2: of a union contract. You have legal protections. You can't

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Speaker 2: just be fired if you take part in one of

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Speaker 2: these kind of impromptu hashtag general strike actions. Your boss

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Speaker 2: is just gonna fire you, yeah, and then like you're done.

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Speaker 2: You don't have any protections there, Like one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons that and I know it's not as much fun.

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Speaker 2: It's just going out and saying fuck it and bring

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Speaker 2: it all down. Trust me, I would love to see

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Speaker 2: that type of shit, but unfortunately, again we live constrained

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Speaker 2: by laws and like logic when it comes like the

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Speaker 2: reason that you see big labor strikes and big picket

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Speaker 2: lines and all this cool stuff that's happening, like there

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Speaker 2: is part of a process. Those unions are negotiating contracts,

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Speaker 2: these legally binding documents. They're collective bargaining agreements that have

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Speaker 2: expiration dates. You know, the UAW didn't just pick you

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Speaker 2: didn't just say all right, right, now we're mad, we're

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Speaker 2: going to go on strike. Like no, their previous agreements

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Speaker 2: had expiration date. They hit the expiration date, so they

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Speaker 2: start bargaining again. Bargaining didn't go well, they went on strike.

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Speaker 2: That is how it works when you're in a union.

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Speaker 2: That's like just part and parcel of the push and

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Speaker 2: pool of leverage that workers have against the boss. And

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Speaker 2: it's like a century's old system, Like there's laws, there's protections,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot that goes into it. And I think

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Speaker 2: we're saying before we hopped on the call officially, like

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people haven't had union jobs

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Speaker 2: or didn't don't have a deep understanding of unions and

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Speaker 2: how they work. So of course they wouldn't necessarily know

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Speaker 2: when the expiration dating is for this contract or what

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Speaker 2: goes into bargaining union contract. But there's there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of moving parts.

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Speaker 1: Yes might they might not know that, as we're about

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Speaker 1: to talk about, you can't just have a bunch of

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Speaker 1: union leaders decide we're all going to go on strike

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Speaker 1: at once. Sympathy strikes are very much not legal. Now

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Speaker 1: there is a way to get multiple We should just

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Speaker 1: talk about like why we're doing this, which is that.

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Speaker 1: So there's this fella who so far has seems like

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Speaker 1: a pretty pretty head out screwed on straight solid dude,

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Speaker 1: Sean Fain, who is Big Sean, Yeah, Big Sean. And

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Speaker 1: he's like the he's the he's the head of the

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Speaker 1: u a W. Right or he's like the guy negotiating

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Speaker 1: for the ua W.

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Speaker 2: No, he's the president, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The president, and he is Sean Is. So he's you know,

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Speaker 1: the UAW is the big one of the big otto

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Speaker 1: like the largest of the auto worker like related unions,

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Speaker 1: and they have been in a strike I think primarily

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Speaker 1: General Motors.

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Speaker 2: It's the big three General Motors, Ford as Stelanis which

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Speaker 2: makes Chrysler, and a couple of other brands.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they they have gone on a very power

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Speaker 1: about six weeks or so, very significant strike. You can

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Speaker 1: read stuff like Toyota recently like put out a proposal

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Speaker 1: for like giving workers raises that's in line with like

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Speaker 1: the union of like they are scared and it looks

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Speaker 1: like like as I mean this is they haven't inked

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Speaker 1: anything yet, but as of us recording this, it looks

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Speaker 1: like they've won on a lot, which is great. And

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Speaker 1: Sean is is not just a you know, a union man,

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Speaker 1: but is very much a t talking blatantly about the

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Speaker 1: class war of the rich against everybody else that's occurring

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Speaker 1: in this country. And he made some statements about two

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Speaker 1: days before we recorded this where he was like, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know what, we need to be setting the date,

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Speaker 1: the expiration date for our contract in twenty twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: and I want to implore all other you know, unions

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Speaker 1: that are negotiating and can do this, to set that

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Speaker 1: with their next contract expiration date, so that in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty eight we have the option to do a general

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Speaker 1: strike in order to redress some of this, to make

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Speaker 1: inequalities as a result of this war of the billionaires

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Speaker 1: against everybody else. Very much framed it in those kind

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Speaker 1: of stark terms, and you know, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about why. But I think that's a workable plan potentially.

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Speaker 2: It really is. It's incredible. Honestly, this is kind of

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Speaker 2: I think this is one of the ballsiest things we've

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Speaker 2: heard from a mainstream labor leader since well since Sarah Nelson,

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Speaker 2: the president of the Flight Attendants Union, kind of soft

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Speaker 2: called for a general strike or at least brought up

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Speaker 2: the idea of a general strike in twenty nineteen, and

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Speaker 2: they're doing that.

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Speaker 1: I've forgotten that stopped a government shutdown.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like, the general strike is a very powerful tool,

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Speaker 2: and we've done it before, you know. I think the

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Speaker 2: most recent true general strike we saw this country was

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Speaker 2: like nineteen nineteen in Seattle. Yea, so it's been a minute.

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Speaker 2: But the genius of this plan is the fact that

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Speaker 2: it's illegal. And I mean, of course, you know, laws

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Speaker 2: aren't real, but when you're doing this kind of thing

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Speaker 2: and operating within these constraints, it is helpful when you're

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Speaker 2: not actively breaking the law, because that helps you get

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Speaker 2: more shit done. Right, So what Sean is proposing is saying, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna set our contract to expire around this time,

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Speaker 2: and we want a whole bunch of other big ingers

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Speaker 2: to do the same thing. Now, if all of their

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Speaker 2: union contracts happen to expire around the same time, and

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Speaker 2: then their negotiations happen to break down and they happen

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Speaker 2: to go on strike at the same time, creating an

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Speaker 2: actual general strike, the government can't really do shit about it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you mentioned before the sympathy strikes, solidarity strikes.

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Speaker 2: They are illegal because of this nineteen forty seven law

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Speaker 2: called out the taff Hartley Act. Essentially, that means if

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Speaker 2: say you're your warehouse, you're part of the teamsers, you

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Speaker 2: go on strike, and then the coffee shop next door

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Speaker 2: is like, oh, yeah, we support you, We're going to

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Speaker 2: go on strike too. They can't do that, that's breaking

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Speaker 2: the law. But in this different hypothetical, if they their

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Speaker 2: contract was up at the same time as your contract,

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Speaker 2: you both want to strike at the same time, that's legal,

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Speaker 2: and it's also very disruptive to that little corridor you're

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Speaker 2: working in. And imagine doing that on a national level.

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Speaker 2: Imagine if the flight attendants, the teamsters, the UAW, Starbucks

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Speaker 2: fucking the air traffic controllers, the longshoreman, like all of

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Speaker 2: these incredibly important infrastructure wise jobs happened to go on

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Speaker 2: strike at the same time. That would shut down the

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Speaker 2: whole fucking country. Yeah, and it would be legal, which

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Speaker 2: is so fun. I'd love to see it.

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Speaker 1: You know. Obviously, when you are talking about radical social change,

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Speaker 1: illegality is always on the table, but it's not the

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Speaker 1: smartest place to start from when you're talking about something

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Speaker 1: like this where you have the option to get a

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Speaker 1: lot done, you know, within within the protection of the law,

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Speaker 1: which makes it easier to get more people on board.

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Speaker 1: It makes it easier to get critical mass. And if

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Speaker 1: at a later date, you know, the state were to

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Speaker 1: take a legal action that makes it impossible for you

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Speaker 1: to continue legally, well, then you've got that critical mass

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Speaker 1: behind you and potentially probably radicalized, you know.

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Speaker 2: Right, And you have resources, you have infrastructure, because big

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Speaker 2: unions have big striketh funds. Yes, this is the thing

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Speaker 2: that UAW has hundreds of millions of dollars in the

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Speaker 2: bank that they're saving for just this purpose when their

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Speaker 2: workers go on striketh, so they can continue to pay

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Speaker 2: them and cover their health insurance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why you pay dues, right, Like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's literally like strike insurance. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: the big unions have this set up. They have comms teams,

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Speaker 2: they have legal teams, they have experience like I known

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Speaker 2: as radicals, Like we tend to be perhaps a little

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Speaker 2: allergic to a lot of those things, especially if they're

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Speaker 2: not particularly in line with our specific vision of the few,

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Speaker 2: but they're really helpful to have, you know, Like, doing

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Speaker 2: crimes is fun and I support it pretty much at

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Speaker 2: all times. But getting shit done is way more fun

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Speaker 2: and way more satisfying.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's nice to win.

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Speaker 2: It's nice to win.

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Speaker 1: Unions are kind of on a role right now, right there.

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Speaker 1: We've all watched some really substantial gains for working people

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Speaker 1: just in the last six months, and it's worth paying

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Speaker 1: attention to why. And part of it is that, like,

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Speaker 1: you're not relying upon people risking everything, many of whom

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Speaker 1: can't write. You can't very easily ethically defend if you

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Speaker 1: are like a single parent who is responsible for multiple children.

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Speaker 1: You can't defend going out and busting a bunch of

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Speaker 1: windows and then getting locked up super easy, because you

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Speaker 1: do you have responsibilities. You've got people to care for, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, right you have elders at home, if you're or

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Speaker 2: if you're a disabled person, if you're meding a compromise,

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Speaker 2: you you can't go out there and get involved in

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Speaker 2: that type of situation.

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Speaker 1: You can't risk being around that many people. Maybe, but

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Speaker 1: you can strike. Yeah, yeah, this is that.

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Speaker 2: You can respect a picket line, You can help support,

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Speaker 2: you can help offer some of the resources we need

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Speaker 2: for folks to get out there, like utilizing this existing infrastructure,

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Speaker 2: in these existing resources. It just opens up the possibility

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Speaker 2: for more people to get involved in a way that's

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Speaker 2: less harmful to them, to the people like we want

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Speaker 2: to harm the bosses, and you know the status quote,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to hurt our people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think there's a lot of wisdom in this. Now.

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Speaker 1: The question is when we say that this is workable,

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Speaker 1: does that mean that like it's a guarantee or it

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Speaker 1: would be easy? Of course not. No, like you're talking

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Speaker 1: you're still talking about a struggle against people who have

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Speaker 1: I don't know the majority of the resources the human

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Speaker 1: race has ever marshalled in like a financial form right

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Speaker 1: at their beck in call. So that's you know, this

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Speaker 1: is still a frightening and potentially pretty dangerous thing, but

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Speaker 1: it is a workable plan that has infrastructure behind it,

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Speaker 1: and that crucially, you know, the downside is that the

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Speaker 1: bosses know that people are talking about this and they

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Speaker 1: have time to prepare. But the nice side is that like,

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Speaker 1: well so do we, and that's generally positive.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing I've seen again on social media

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Speaker 2: people saying like, oh, we have to wait five years,

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Speaker 2: we have to wait four and a half years. That's ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: Why don't we just do it now. You can do

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Speaker 2: a lot of planning and a lot of building in

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Speaker 2: four and a half years. You need that time to

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Speaker 2: actually pull something off of this magnitude. And also, I

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Speaker 2: mean a lot of unions that perhaps might be interested

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Speaker 2: in this, like they have contracts of their own that

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Speaker 2: we need. They need to sort of work out the

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Speaker 2: timing for you know, this plan only works if we

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Speaker 2: can actually maneuver away for a lot of these big

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Speaker 2: contracts that big powerful unions to expire at the same time,

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Speaker 2: if someone's contract, if the team SERTs, next contract expires

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty seven, like okay, I think they're not

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Speaker 2: gonna be able to play ball, and you really want

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Speaker 2: the teamsters if you want to play this type of game.

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Speaker 2: And then another hurdle that I think it's it's unfortunate

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Speaker 2: is that you know Sean Fame, Big Sean A what

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Speaker 2: a man. He's very out there and very outspoken about

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Speaker 2: opposing capitalism, about this being class war. He's on the level,

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Speaker 2: but he is a rarity among major labor union leaders.

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Speaker 2: Like there are some leaders that would be down to clown,

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Speaker 2: you know, like Sarah Nelson's out here, like Mark Diamondstein

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Speaker 2: with the postal workers. Like there are some very cool,

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Speaker 2: very progressive, if not radical union leaders out there, but

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Speaker 2: there's also a lot of conservative or just of wishy

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Speaker 2: washy Democrats style union leaders too that would not want

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Speaker 2: to have any part of this, and a big part

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Speaker 2: of convincing them to get on the level and become

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Speaker 2: involved in this kind of effort that's going to come

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Speaker 2: down to what the rank and file have to say.

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Speaker 2: That's going to come that that pressure is going to

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Speaker 2: have to come up through the ranks. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: reason we have Sean Fain and we have Sean ol

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Speaker 2: brien and the Teamsters, and we have this kind of

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Speaker 2: newer wave of more progressive mills that union leadership is

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Speaker 2: because of what the rank and file have done, Like

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Speaker 2: Teamster's for Democratic Union organized for years to get that

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Speaker 2: reform slaid in, to get Sean O'Brien in there to

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Speaker 2: take on ups. Sean Fayne is the first ever democratically

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Speaker 2: elected union leader in uaw's history because of a lot

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Speaker 2: of organizing around reform that came from the rank and

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Speaker 2: file that took years to get him there. We would

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Speaker 2: not have Big Sean if people had not invested years

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Speaker 2: of their life towards organizing for this goal. And so

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Speaker 2: now we have this four to five year span where

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Speaker 2: we can push our own union leaders in that right

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Speaker 2: direction to plant those seeds, to try and really build

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Speaker 2: something that they can't refuse to get on board with.

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Speaker 2: But that's going to take time too. I think people

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Speaker 2: need to really recognize that, like, unions are not unfortunately

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Speaker 2: they're all like these magical progressive silver bullets, Like there

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Speaker 2: are no previ shitty people in union leadership across the country,

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Speaker 2: and we got to do something about if we really

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Speaker 2: want to get people on board.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's you know, upsides and downsides when we

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Speaker 1: compare it to like sort of how radicals like to

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Speaker 1: particularly the anarchist radical organizing, where you know, the downside

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Speaker 1: is you do these are organizations that are hierarchical. They

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Speaker 1: can be stratified. It can make it very difficult to

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Speaker 1: push for change. It can make them Just as our

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Speaker 1: democracy is not super responsive to what the majority people want,

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Speaker 1: union leadership in a number of cases is not responsive

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Speaker 1: to what people want. They've also had, especially if you

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Speaker 1: go back to like you know, the mid century, last

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Speaker 1: century not short history of corruption, right, that's been a

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Speaker 1: problem you needs have dealt with in the past. Two

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Speaker 1: These are issues you don't have as much with autonomously

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Speaker 1: organized you know, small groups of activists on the street.

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Speaker 1: The thing that makes them a lot stronger in many

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Speaker 1: ways is the fact that they have more resources to marshall.

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Speaker 1: They have ways of addressing grievances other than like kind

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Speaker 1: of just personal conflicts that are built into the system,

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Speaker 1: and ways of kind of pushing for change that if

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Speaker 1: you get enough people on board with you can make

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Speaker 1: And then you have the weight of this organization with

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Speaker 1: a degree of power and social cachet behind it, And

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Speaker 1: so I think the ability it's much harder to steer

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Speaker 1: these things, but when you get them pointed in the

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Speaker 1: right direction, they have more daying power than kind of

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Speaker 1: small autonomous groups usually do. And I think there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of potential power in that, which is why I

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Speaker 1: think this is a workable plan.

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Speaker 2: And this is why more anarchists and socialist and communists,

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Speaker 2: everybody who wants to really get out there and cause

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Speaker 2: some good trouble will say, like, you need to get

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Speaker 2: involved in your union, You need to organize your workplace.

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Speaker 2: If your job is not such that you can join

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Speaker 2: a traditional union. You need to get involved in your

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Speaker 2: local labor community anyway and try and connect with people

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Speaker 2: who are part of those unions and try and kind

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Speaker 2: of get them to see the light. You need to

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Speaker 2: talk to people not online in person. You got to

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Speaker 2: go talk to people who are different from me, who

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Speaker 2: might have different politics, and try and get them to

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Speaker 2: see why this is something that we could do that

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Speaker 2: could help them, that could help everyone. This is something

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Speaker 2: I emphasize a lot because I'm like, I'm an anarchist too,

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Speaker 2: even though i know it's not like a big old

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Speaker 2: Debbie downer right now talking about all this legal stuff.

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Speaker 2: But I'm also practical and I've also spent a lot

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Speaker 2: of time talking to union members who see the world

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Speaker 2: a lot differently from me. Like I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of my most recent impactful work is, you know, stuff

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Speaker 2: I've been doing in the Deep South and an Appalachia,

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Speaker 2: and no one there is impressed with my guillotine tattoos,

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Speaker 2: but they do see the need to deal with this

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Speaker 2: situation where all the rich people have all the stuff

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Speaker 2: and they're getting screwed. That is a good starting point

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Speaker 2: for a lot. Yeah, and it's yeah, it's easy to

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Speaker 2: say join a union, Like, not everyone can do that,

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Speaker 2: but everybody can find a way to talk to somebody

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Speaker 2: who's connected to a union, who's part of a labor movement,

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Speaker 2: part of a labor organization, Like we need everyone to

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Speaker 2: get involved however they can.

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Speaker 1: I want to note it's significant potential for the radicals

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Speaker 1: are kind of radicals to be useful within this in

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Speaker 1: a direct way. From just a recent example. Right in Portland,

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Speaker 1: the teachers are going on strike. I believe that has

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Speaker 1: happened today, and they had a big march not too

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Speaker 1: long ago that some of my friends were at because

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Speaker 1: they're teachers. And one of the things that happened on

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Speaker 1: that march it was the same day as a Palestinian

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Speaker 1: solidarity march. And at both of these marches that had

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Speaker 1: large thousands of people, the corkers and the security were

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Speaker 1: all kind of the same folks, and they were all

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Speaker 1: folks that were like came out of the Portland radical scene.

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Speaker 1: We're there in the twenty twenty protests a huge because corking,

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Speaker 1: if you're not aware, is like going ahead of into

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Speaker 1: the sides of a protest, like close traffic briefly as

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Speaker 1: people walk by, so folks don't get hit by cars.

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00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: It's a safety thing, right, and so people were kind

434
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: of like the people who were doing that are radicals.

435
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: Our members of generally like these autonomously organized groups who

436
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: are very useful in helping these because you know, people

437
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: have experienced, you know, unions, there may be experience striking,

438
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: but a lot of unions haven't struck in a long time, right,

439
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: because it doesn't happen all that often. And even if

440
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: they have, most of these guys, especially these older guys

441
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 1: and ladies and other folks, these these older union members

442
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: probably have not participated in a large march in the

443
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: modern era of protests where there's dangers like getting rammed

444
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: by cars and stuff. And so the people who have

445
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: these the straight medics and stuff, who have that kind

446
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: of experience hugely useful. Not the only thing. People who

447
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: are striking often need stuff handwarmers or are always appreciated

448
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: water warm food, things that like keep people's morale up,

449
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: organizing like sympathy demonstrations like alongside strikers, and whatnot to

450
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: help them keep their numbers up. All of that stuff

451
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: can be really useful ways for these autonomously organized, kind

452
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: of smaller groups of radicals to participate in a meaningful

453
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: way in something like this. That's not the only degree

454
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 1: to which that's possible, but like, those are just the

455
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: examples that come to mind.

456
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we've talked a lot about legality, and illegality is

457
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: also something that is very much a part of labor

458
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: history and it's present, and I would say it's future

459
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: folks who are perhaps more comfortable with getting into perhaps

460
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 2: more confrontational moments with cops who are trying to mess

461
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: with the picket line, or scabs who are trying to

462
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: be violent towards striking workers, or even just like you said,

463
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: like surveillance and safety and medic work like that is

464
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: all that is all important too. I mean not every

465
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: I've been on some pretty wild picket lines, and not

466
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: everyone there is really that concerned with what the law

467
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 2: has to say about certain things. Once things get a

468
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: little heated, I mean there are points, I mean and

469
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: things I've covered and we've seen this continue to happen

470
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: where people try and drive into the picket line and

471
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: or trying to attack people in the picket line. Yeah,

472
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 2: that is I mean, that deserves a variety of responses,

473
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: I think. And also something to note is that when

474
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 2: when these are strikes called by union leadership, they follow

475
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 2: They tend to follow a set of rules because predominantly,

476
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: like like generally speaking, union leadership doesn't want their members

477
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: to go to jail. They don't want them to get

478
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: in any kind of situations like that. So they'll say,

479
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: you know, okay, well you stay on the sidewalk, or

480
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: oh the cops said to move, so we move, or

481
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: this has to be non violent, or you know, there's

482
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 2: there's kind of a set of circumstances there that union

483
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: members are required to follow. But if you're there to

484
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 2: support and you're not a member of that union, as

485
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: long as you have the consent and support the people

486
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: there you're you're there trying to stick up for, then

487
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: you have a lot more leeway than someone that has,

488
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 2: you know, a union leader to answer to. Like, there's

489
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: a lot of creative ways you can get involved. And

490
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 2: one thing that I think hasn't really been discussed as

491
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: much in like the online discourse or whatever, but I

492
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: think it's important to think about even if you're not

493
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: a person who is able to participate in that on

494
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 2: the street type of way, if there's a huge strike

495
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: going on in your city and you're not part of

496
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: a union, but you want to get involved. Sickouts have

497
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: a very long, illustrious history in a labor movement. If

498
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 2: you happen to get sick that day, what's your boss

499
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: going to do? You know, assuming you have those kind

500
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 2: of protections. If you don't, then you have to make

501
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: your own you know, caveat, caveat, caveat. But if you're

502
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: in a position where you can take off work that

503
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: day or for a couple of days, and it just

504
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: happens to coincide with that massive strike that's shut down

505
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: everything else, And if you convince all your coworkers that

506
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: you're a shocked to do the same thing, you're not

507
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: breaking the law. You're protected, but you're also part of

508
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 2: the shutdown effort. Like sickouts. One of the reasons that

509
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: people were so spoofed around twenty nineteen when the government

510
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: shutdown was looming, before Sarah Nelson really brought out the

511
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: big Gs wars that we're seeing sickouts at airports and

512
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: flights are being canceled in New York and I think

513
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: la and that was starting to spook the people in

514
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: charge because if enough people don't show up for work

515
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: at the airport. Nothing's going to happen at that airport. Yeah,

516
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: And there are a lot of different workplaces where all

517
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: of their workers not showing up could be a potential problem.

518
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 2: So I just encourage people to think creatively about the

519
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: ways they can get involved, even if they can't necessarily

520
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: like get involved on the formal union side. Like, there's

521
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: so much we can do from each according to his

522
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: ability to each, courting to his means. You know that,

523
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 2: I'll chestnut.

524
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: I love. It's so important to bring up airline workers

525
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: because one of the things they the things that they

526
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: have that other people don't, is they can't be replaced

527
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: in the same way. Right you can if all you, Maurice,

528
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: is go on strike, you can potentially bring in whoever

529
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: and they will not be nearly as good at it, right,

530
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: the company will not make nearly as much money. But

531
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: legally there's nothing stack them from doing that. If you

532
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: have a bunch of ground workers call in, right, or

533
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of stewardesses, you have to replace them with

534
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: people who are qualified groundworkers. Like there's a whole process,

535
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: there's like a serial Like there's a lot that they

536
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: have to know how to do, a lot of compliance

537
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: that has to be done because thousands and thousands of

538
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: lives are at stake, right, same thing with medical workers.

539
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: Right when when you've got a job where like they

540
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: can't if like a bunch of nurses go on strike,

541
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: well you have to replace them with nurses, right, And

542
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: there's a very limited supply, so there's a lot of

543
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: leverage that these organizations have.

544
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: The airline industry is incredibly densely unionized too, so if

545
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: all of the union flight antendants aren't available, then no

546
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 2: one's going to be available. Yeah, it's one of the

547
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: plus sizes of having a very densely organized industry, which

548
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: is why we need to keep organizing too in these

549
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: next four and a half years.

550
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: Well, Kim, I think that's most of what I had

551
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: to say. Do you have anything else you wanted to

552
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: get into on this topic before we roll out?

553
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: Hmmm, I think we've covered most things. I do want

554
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: to emphasize, Like I don't want to be a wet

555
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: blanket on people who are excited. I'm not so excited

556
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 2: and so heartened to see the amount of interest and

557
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: energy we're seeing around this general strike idea, because like

558
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: five years ago that would have I mean that would

559
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: not have escaped containment, right, we would have just been

560
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 2: talking amongst ourselves about it. But to have the head

561
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: of a union who has four hundred thousand members, who

562
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: just whipped the shit out of the Big three automakers,

563
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: who's getting all these headlines to talk about a general

564
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: strike in a meaningful way like, yes, maybe he's not

565
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: out here throwing Molotov cocktails the way we perhaps would

566
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: want to see someone doing that, But it still a

567
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: huge deal. And even if you know, the mainstream organized

568
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: labor movement isn't as radical as a lot of us

569
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: within it would like to see it, we have a

570
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: lot of time now to try and pull things in direction.

571
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: I feel like a damn has burst in a way.

572
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 2: And if anything, this is a moment of opportunity and

573
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: of working together and trying to see different perspectives in

574
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: a way that gets us all closer to the point

575
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: we really need to be. Absolutely we take all this

576
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: shit down, all right?

577
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: I am in agreement, Kim. People should look up your

578
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: book Fight like, hell.

579
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, at the untold history of American labor?

580
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and what else should they look up? R e U.

581
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: I'm still unfortunately on Twitter, so I'm there, grim Kim.

582
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: I know, I'm a freelancer. I read a lot for

583
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: in these times. I have a column at teen Vogue,

584
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: I write for a fast company, and I'm kind of

585
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: all over the place so and I do a lot

586
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 2: of book talks and stuff. So I'm I'm around. If

587
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: you want to talk to your friendly neighborhood anarchist labor reporter,

588
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: just to google me. But don't believe everything you read,

589
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: because you know.

590
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: She didn't kill that guy. He was dead when she

591
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: got there. Anyway, Kim, thank you so much.

592
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

593
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, thanks for being here, for showing up, and

594
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: thank you all for listening until next time. Uh, I

595
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good that's a

596
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: good one. It could happen here as a production of

597
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media.

598
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

599
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

600
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

601
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated

602
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,