WEBVTT - Jemele Hill on Trump, Kaepernick, and being Unbothered 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:14.640 Welcome to PM Mood. I am super excited to be 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.080 welcoming too, PM Mood. Jamal Hill, who was a staff 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.079 writer at The Atlantic covering sports, race, politics, and culture, 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:26.479 and is also the host of Jamal Hill is Unbothered 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.160 on Spotify. Jamal, thank you so much for joining PM 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:32.879 mood today. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.440 think one of the reasons why I was so excited 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:37.920 about the opportunity to speak with you is not only 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.960 because you're a badass black woman journalist, but because we 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.320 have something slightly in common, which is that the both 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.920 of us. Me, in the fall of last year, decided 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.960 to put my integrity ahead of what many thought was 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:59.360 a good paycheck. I was previously working at Sirius XM 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.080 with a show that I had there, and I felt 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:06.240 that it was my obligation to let my listeners know 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:12.520 that Serious XM was in fact supporting Trump and supporting 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:17.520 him with millions of dollars of donations. And because I 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:21.040 decided to share that on Twitter, I was fired. Unlike you, 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.840 you left ESPN of your own volition, but I was 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.440 let go. I was pushed out, and so I kind 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.399 of wanted to start off our conversation on PM mood 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.440 with one of your quotes two other journalists, which is, 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:39.840 tell the truth bravely, even if it makes people uncomfortable. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.479 Can you talk a bit about what it's like now 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:49.000 to be a journalist where the profession seems to be 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.040 under attack in many ways and there has been this 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.240 desire to kind of acquiesce to the powers that be 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.520 and use euphemisms in a time of great danger in 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.840 our climate and in our culture. What it means to 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.640 be brave in this moment. Well, first, I commend you 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.480 for what you did, and it highlights what is a 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.480 significant problem, particularly in the business and corporate American culture, 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.440 is that you hear them give so much lip service. 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.720 And I call it lip service because they do exactly 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.720 what you're talking about. Is that they will promote, they 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:25.160 will talk about diversity, talk about inclusion, and then on 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.840 the other end, they will fight against it at the 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.440 same time by donating to people who have a clear 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.720 agenda against those principles they allege that they stand for 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.200 in this political climate, which kind of leads into the 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:39.120 question you ask me, a lot of people want to 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:42.440 take stands without risk. Doesn't work that way. Is that 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:47.960 you either are working actively against racism, actively against some 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.560 of these values and principle that lead us to having 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.240 a more diversive, inclusive society, or you're working for it. 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.400 You can't be working against and for it at the 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.280 same time. There is a certainly an attack on journalism now, 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.200 as you mentioned, an attack on journalists. Some of it 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.200 is financial attack in the sense that people should be 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.040 very wary, they should be appalled, they should be quite 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.440 concerned that the media business is kind of growing smaller, 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:18.040 fewer companies are owning more things, and that's not really 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.799 how journalism was intentioned to be. When I first got 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.280 into the business, a lot of newspapers were family owned 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.000 companies and they were not at the mercy of stockholders, 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.880 and that allowed, I think, for journalism to be in 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.520 a different place. That's not to say that from a 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.880 diversity standpoint and an inclusion standpoint, it was good, because 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.560 a lot of the same problems that exist then existed now. 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.400 But at least the type of journalism that was being 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.480 done it was different, as in there was a commitment, 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.640 an active commitment to investigative journalism, to telling the truth, 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.640 to holding the powers that be that are accountable. I mean, 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.080 most of us got into this profession to be that 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.000 We're not supposed to be aligned with the power structure. 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.720 That's not how it works. We're supposed to be actively 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.920 challenging them on a consistent basis, and we do that 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.600 through truth and accuracy and fairness. And so it is 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:11.880 disheartening to me that because of the boom of social 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.200 media and just the boom even within the structures of journalism, 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.760 that there's a heavier emphasis on opinion and commentary as 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.920 opposed to dealing with the truth. That it has retrained 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.200 viewers and listeners to only seek out news sources that 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.400 already validate their opinions. Now, before that might not have 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.040 been a problem because everybody was pretty much playing in 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.960 somewhat straight But now that you have networks and outlets 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:40.880 that actively cater to opinions often based in ignorance, it 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:45.360 really makes a journalist job that much more difficult. Yeah, 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.360 you know, I find that at one hand, I think 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.440 that social media has democratized communication in a way that 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.680 allows everyone right to have a platform, and not just 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:00.200 the top five news stations. It allows everyone to quote unquote, 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.720 I spy reporters right, they are seeing things on the 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.200 ground and then they're able to share them with the 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:10.719 people that follow. I think about Ferguson for instance, right, 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.640 and how at the time when Mike Brown was killed 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.640 and people are flooding the streets in protest, and at 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.200 that time, not one cable news station as this news 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.760 was breaking, as people were gathering, not one news station 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.680 was covering it. And had it not been for people 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:33.120 that were on the ground in Ferguson tweeting and sharing videos, 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.039 and then it grew and grew and grew, only then 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.679 did cable news decide to pick it up. Right, Only 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.160 then did people start to write about it. And so 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.640 on one hand, I think, wow, how extraordinary, right that 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.120 the violence that affects communities of color, Black communities in 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:52.359 particular are not silenced. Right. I sometimes ask myself, is 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.880 it that there are more black people that are being killed? 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.600 Is there more injustice that is happening, or are we 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.800 just able to report on it more because of the 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.560 social media platforms that we have access to. But at 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:10.200 the same time, those same mediums have become arenas for bullying, right, 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.520 And you know, in that respect, I want to talk 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:17.400 with you about twenty seventeen and Donald Trump I don't 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.440 refer to him on my shows as president. I've referred 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:22.240 to him as a piece of shit. But that's just me. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:28.159 But you know, Trump does what he has been doing 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:32.360 since he was elected, and I use air quotes around that. 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.000 Since he was elected president of the United States, he's 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.920 been using Twitter as his platform to bully people, specifically 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.880 women of color, into silence. And back in twenty seventeen, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:47.400 you were the target of one of those tweets because 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.160 you had referred to him as many people had reported 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:54.760 the facts of Donald Trump being a white supremist and 0:06:54.920 --> 0:07:00.000 being in support of white supremists following the marches in Charlotte'svie, 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.400 where he said that there were good people on both sides. 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:08.240 Can you just tell folks remind them kind of what 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.080 that moment was that brought you to send that tweet 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:15.680 and then what it felt like to be on the 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:20.000 other end of Trump's wrath. For me, I didn't really 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:24.680 think I was doing anything special, and it was one 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.440 of the most unoriginal things I've ever said, because I 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.920 really thought that a lot of people already knew that, 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:35.280 and apparently they did not. But like a lot of people, 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.800 especially people of color, especially black women. I had reached 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.240 the point of disgust with the things that I was 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:46.480 seeing Charlottesville, comments made by Donald Trump, and it was 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.720 just kind of a culmination fed up black girl moment 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.800 that I had and going back and forth with a 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.640 Twitter user who was trying to present the case that 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.440 he was not, in fact a white supremacist. And I 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.760 think part of the reason why people are still arguing 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.240 this some people, I feel like that group is actually 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.920 dwindling is that they don't really understand what a white 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.480 supremacist is. People in certain groups, certainly a lot of 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.720 privileged people, they tend to think of white supremacists or 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:21.080 white nationalists as people walking around with hoods and torches 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.240 and that kind of thing, not understanding that it's far 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.040 more subtle, and the subtlety makes it even more dangerous. 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.240 If you have the inherent belief, which Donald Trump has 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.800 expressed many times, that certain groups of people are more 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.679 worthy than others, or in more inferior than others, you 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.520 are a white supremacist. It's just that simple, Like it's 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.199 it couldn't be a more clear cut definition. So what 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:47.640 he has said about African countries, about Mexico, that's things 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:52.320 that white supremacists say because they inherently believe that they're better. 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.680 And when he was talking about how the US needs 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.920 more immigrants from nice countries and he named all the 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.000 largely white ones, that's what a white supremacist says. Okay, 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.679 So this is not even hard. This is not the 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.120 Pythagorean theorem. Okay, that's like really easy to figure out. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:14.160 So it just all the combination of seeing the things 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.880 I was seeing happening in this country just overnight. It 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.520 seems like the tone, tenor climate of this country changed. 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:23.840 And this is not to suggest that I would not 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.280 give Donald Trump enough credit to say that he invented 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.760 racism or that it didn't exist before he took office. 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.600 It did loudly in a lot of places. But just 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:36.280 I think we all can agree something changed in twenty sixteen. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.679 And so with me going back and forth with this 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.640 Twitter user when I called him a white supremacist and 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.199 said he's surrounded himselves with white supremacists, which is also 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.760 a fact. Hello, you know, Steve Bannon. I mean it's 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.600 like it's such a fact, right, And Stephen Miller, like, 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.520 these are guys who traffic in white supremacy, in white nationalism. 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.720 They always have. There's not a shock to anybody who 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.959 has kept themselves some what informed of these issues. I 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:03.640 just didn't really think it was going to be that 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.800 big of a deal, which is why I said it, 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.160 because you know, I guess had I known or had 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.400 a second thought that this is gonna become the national 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.240 story that it did, I don't know. Maybe I would 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.720 have decided not to press in, but I honestly didn't 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:18.800 really think it was that big of a deal. And 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.000 much to my surprise, it became such a big deal 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.679 that Sarah Huckabee Sanders said I should be fired, and 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.160 Donald Trump blamed me for ESPN's ratings falling, and it 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.600 became this big bruhaha. I wasn't bothered by what I said. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:32.920 I don't regret it. It's still a fact, by the way, 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:38.400 and I don't wish for anything differently, and the ways 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:40.520 that it changed my life. I don't care what the 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:42.760 President thinks about me at all. I don't care if 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.880 Sara Huckaby Sanders thinks about me, none of them, because frankly, 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.440 I don't even respect him enough to care, so it 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:53.160 doesn't matter. But what I do care about is the 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.960 fact that he has a certain element and a following 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.319 and a cultish fan base that follows him. That it 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.679 disrupted my life having to deal with them. So that 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:05.680 was the only part that was a little more unnerving 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.520 because I remember me and well he was then my boyfriend. 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.199 He's my husband now, but me, him and his father 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:13.679 and another friend of mine. We were going to a 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.680 Monday night football game in New Jersey to see the 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.520 Giants play the Lions because my boyfriend's a huge Lions fan, 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.200 and so I had to have security, you know, and 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.520 that's not something I'm used to. You know. I got 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.000 a lot of death threats, there were you know, ESPN's 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.079 switchboard at the time got totally lit up. My voicemail 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.079 at ESPN was deactivated the last year or so I 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.160 was there, Like post Trump, I deactivated my voicemail because 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.720 people were leaving such nasty, horrible, threatening messages. I just 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.320 didn't even want that in my ecosystem of my mind 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:48.600 every day. And it wasn't until actually recently that I 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.280 went through some of the snailmail that I received. I 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:53.920 had it tucked away, but for an event I was 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.280 doing a storytelling event, I decided to read it and 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:58.840 make it kind of a part of the speech that 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.560 I gave. And you know, it was harsh, like it 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.080 was hard, it was hard to read. It doesn't affect 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.200 my spirit because I know who I am. These people 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:10.360 don't know me, but just to think about the level 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.480 of hatred that he can inspire and a lot of 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.360 people is really frightening. And so that was the way 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.400 it disrupted my life. And even having to deal with 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.920 all of that, I still wouldn't change anything I said, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.839 because I think as journalists that's part of our job 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.120 is that we have to say what it is. If 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.240 we lose our capacity to tell the truth, then we've 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.520 undercut and undermined everything we stand for. It like we can't. 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.199 You mentioned a few moments ago about how we're in 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:41.160 this time of euphemisms where so many newspapers and media 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.520 outlets have a problem telling people that Donald Trump is 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.600 an outright liar when he lies constantly, Like it's okay 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.120 to call him a liar because he's lying, he's not 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.480 telling the truth. They'll say a bunch of things like 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.320 here's another falsehood, or here is something that we fact checked. 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.120 And I said, you know, if you can teach a 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.880 kindergartner right right from wrong, right true from false, and 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.720 say that is a lie. You know, we don't lie, 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.040 which many parents and caregivers tell their children not to do. 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:14.520 Then why are these decorated newspapers and outlets dancing around 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.000 that fact? And they said, well, the Washington Post has 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.240 a tracker, and up to this point, they have tracked 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.800 over sixteen thousand lies that the President of the United 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.760 States has told correct, so it's okay to call him 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.520 a liar because he is. And so you know, this 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:32.880 is not somebody who gets caught in one or two lies, 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.040 as you just mentioned that horrific fact. We're talking about 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.760 sixteen thousand. But even when I engage the few times, 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.480 because it's becoming less and less, it's like I engage 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.040 in people who support Donald Trump or are just not 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:50.160 as bothered by what he has done to this country 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.440 and this presidency in particular, because I hope people understand 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.480 that the office of the presidency will never be the 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.240 same now ever, and he's permanently changed. That is that 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.959 they want to use euphemisms like, oh, he's just not 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.160 politically correct, like no, no, no no, no, no, no, no, 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:09.280 politically not being politically correct is maybe swearing when you shouldn't. Occasionally, 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.120 it could be joking about things that are taboo. That's 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:17.600 not politically Kurbac, it is racist to detigrade and say 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.800 some of the things that he said about other people. 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.120 It's like, that's what that is. And I think the 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.920 people who continue to support this man, they will not 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.680 own up to the fact that the reason they support 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.040 him is not because he's not politically correct and they're 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.480 so tired of the political correctness of oh, I don't know, 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:38.400 respecting people and giving them their dignity, which I again 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.600 I always find that it isn't that fascinating when they 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.360 say that. It's like, what does that even mean? They're 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:44.960 supporting them because they believe in what he says. It's 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.920 just no other way around it. That's why I said that, Yes, 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:51.280 at this point, you can think it's harsh, your feelings 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.600 can be heard about it. If you support the president, 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.040 if you voted for him, you're a white supremacist because 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.200 either one or two things are the case. Either you're 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.880 okay with white supremacy and racism, which what does that 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.920 say about you? Or you believe what he believes. So 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.000 either way, because I find the people that are just 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.120 okay with it happening and saying like, oh, well, you know, 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.080 I get this out of it. So, yeah, he could 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.720 be a while racist. Cool, you're a white supremacist. Own 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:17.120 up to it, you know, like you hear it, But 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:19.440 I don't care about hurting your feelings anymore. Yeah. I 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.600 think that it's important for people to own those things. 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.360 But I also think that it's important for journalists who 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.120 press people on that, right. Like, you know, following the 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.200 twenty sixteen election, we had I don't know how many 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.160 articles that came out that said that the reason that 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.760 why Hillary Clinton lost wasn't the fact that Vladimir Putin 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.760 stole our election, right, Wasn't the fact that he propped 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:40.760 up Donald Trump, wasn't the fact of all of these 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:45.160 things was because Hillary Clinton paid more attention to identity politics, 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.040 and that was the problem. Right. And so if we 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.800 want to win elections, we can't talk about race and 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.280 we can't talk about racism, and we have to pretend 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.400 that the people that voted for Donald Trump did so 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:59.000 out of economic anxiety. Well, we've had I don't know 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.560 how many studies that have come out, because white people 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.440 really need studies. I don't know how many studies that 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.240 came out that said, in fact, the opposite, the reason 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.320 why white folks voted for Donald Trump was because of 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.320 white nationalism, was because they are fearing the demographic shift, 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:17.480 because they know what it's like to be on top 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.760 and how they've treated everybody else on the bottom, and 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:21.960 they're afraid now to be on the bottom. Yeah, which 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.640 is really interesting because even when we had those opportunities, 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.320 we've rarely taken them. The fear is that, I think 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.560 the realization that is exactly what you said, But on 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.440 top of that, it's the realization that maybe they weren't 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:36.640 as smart as they think they are, maybe they're a 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.040 lot more mediocre than they want to acknowledge. And the 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.920 reality is that some of them, not all of them, 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:47.360 have been able to ascend to certain positions, attain certain things, 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.280 not based off their talent and ability, but purely based 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.480 off their positioning and because of white privilege. And that's 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.080 a hard thing to reconcile with, is that you have 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:01.480 been an active participant in keeping a lot institutional racism. 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.480 It's hard to face that. And that's why I think 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.320 people get so defensive and as much as they keep 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.119 you know, consistently, we've seen a bunch of these videos 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:15.120 on social media, and it particularly, unfortunately happens to Hispanics 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:17.679 and Latinos more than anybody when they get that why 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.560 don't you go back to your country, or why don't 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.080 you do this? Or why do you do that? Which 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.439 is really funny a nation founded on basically immigrants, But 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.880 that's neither hearing on there. You know. The reason that 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.439 it's drawing that response is like their worst nightmare is 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.560 that they will walk into a grocery store and everybody 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.639 then and there will be speaking Spanish and they have 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.800 no idea what's going on. Juxtapose that with the fact 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.120 that we deal with that all the time, is that, yeah, 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.320 white people may not be speaking a different language, but 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.520 we're far more used to encounters where we're the only 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.919 person in the room of color, the only woman, the 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.440 only black woman, the only black person, any of those 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.119 categories we fit, so we can adapt. It's not a 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.840 big deal for us. They, on the other hand, have 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.960 never been forced into those situations, or usually they aren't, 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.200 and so because of that, I think it has created 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.640 a sense of panic and it doesn't help. Again, as 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.199 I mentioned where Unfortunately media has played a part in 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.959 this is that if they believe that they can go 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:22.320 to outlets hello, Fox News, that only continually reinforce that 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.480 belief that they have something to fear by this country 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.600 becoming more inclusive and diverse in them not being the majority. 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.240 So they're allowing themselves to be played by a fear 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:37.160 that is so baseless and ridiculous that they have decided 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:39.200 to push their center of the chips to the table. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.040 They don't care about how immoral it is. And I'm 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:49.000 especially tickled by these Christian evangelicals who continue, in their 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.480 utter disrespect of God, who they supposedly stand for, continue 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.920 to the support, supposedly continue to support this man based 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.520 off nothing else but white supremacy. That's it, right. You know, 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.200 I'm so grateful to hear that. You know, had you 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.280 had the opportunity to do things over again, right, and 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.040 I know that you've said this many of times in 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.480 twenty seventeen, if you had the opportunity to say, you 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.480 know what, I'm not going to send that tweet or 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.639 I'm not going to respond in this way that you 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.200 said that you wouldn't do it over that. In fact, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.400 having done that kind of changed the trajectory of your 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.119 life in some ways. Can you talk about what it 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.480 means to own your power and your voice in a 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:32.120 way now that is different from before the tweet. I've 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:36.200 always considered myself as somebody who didn't pull any punches, 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.640 but I was strategic about the punches that I threw. 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:43.480 And now I think while I am still somewhat strategic 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:45.720 because I you know, I've always wanted to be the 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.119 type of person that you know, when I said something, 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.679 it resonated and it mattered, and so I wanted to 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:55.000 be careful about what I decided to be vocal about. 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.800 So that part still exists, you know, to some degree. 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.200 But I think you know what happened, especially given how 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:05.160 my work life is designed. Now I have a sense 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:08.480 of freedom and autonomy and confidence that I haven't had 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.560 to this level at this point in my life and career, 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:15.080 because ultimately, the people that want to mess with me 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.240 mess with me, and the people who don't don't. And 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.640 I don't find myself feeling as if I have to 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.320 edit myself, or feeling as if I have to curb 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.440 who I actually am, or that I don't have to 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:30.119 say certain things, you know, for fear of, oh, it 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.040 may cost me this opportunity or that opportunity. I haven't 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:36.719 thought about that in a long time, because once you know, 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.560 the White House calls for you to be you know, fired. 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.720 I mean, I think people pretty much know what they're getting, 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:46.680 and so so there's no surprises to sum it up 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:49.639 this way, and so not to continue to ramble is 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.280 I'm more concerned about the people in the room. I 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.240 don't think about the people who are not there. It's 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.840 a party. Analogy I like to use is that I'm 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.919 worried about throwing the do opest party for all the 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.000 people who want to come to the party, so that 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.160 you know, when it's two am, they ain't trying to leave. 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:07.639 They got all the drinks they want to get. You know, 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:09.639 they having a great time. I ain't worried about the 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.199 people outside in the line trying to get in, not 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:14.879 worried about those worried about having the dopest party of 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.359 the people that you have around you forget about the 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.600 people who aren't there. And so having that mentality, I 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.800 think has allowed me to write the best that I've 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.600 ever had to broadcast the best that I ever had 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:28.960 to do. My podcast in a way that I don't 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.400 think I would have done it two years ago. It's 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:33.919 just given me just a new and renewed sense of 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:38.760 confidence in myself, in my abilities, and I'm constantly getting 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.760 proof and evidence that you don't have to curb your integrity, 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.320 your beliefs to fit into this industry. So I don't 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.840 care about really fitting in that way anymore. And I'm 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.080 grateful and I thank God that I've reached this point 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:56.080