1 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to PM Mood. I am super excited to be 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: welcoming too, PM Mood. Jamal Hill, who was a staff 3 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: writer at The Atlantic covering sports, race, politics, and culture, 4 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: and is also the host of Jamal Hill is Unbothered 5 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: on Spotify. Jamal, thank you so much for joining PM 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: mood today. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I 7 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: think one of the reasons why I was so excited 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: about the opportunity to speak with you is not only 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: because you're a badass black woman journalist, but because we 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: have something slightly in common, which is that the both 11 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: of us. Me, in the fall of last year, decided 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: to put my integrity ahead of what many thought was 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: a good paycheck. I was previously working at Sirius XM 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: with a show that I had there, and I felt 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: that it was my obligation to let my listeners know 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: that Serious XM was in fact supporting Trump and supporting 17 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: him with millions of dollars of donations. And because I 18 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: decided to share that on Twitter, I was fired. Unlike you, 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: you left ESPN of your own volition, but I was 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: let go. I was pushed out, and so I kind 21 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: of wanted to start off our conversation on PM mood 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: with one of your quotes two other journalists, which is, 23 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: tell the truth bravely, even if it makes people uncomfortable. 24 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: Can you talk a bit about what it's like now 25 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: to be a journalist where the profession seems to be 26 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: under attack in many ways and there has been this 27 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: desire to kind of acquiesce to the powers that be 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: and use euphemisms in a time of great danger in 29 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: our climate and in our culture. What it means to 30 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: be brave in this moment. Well, first, I commend you 31 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: for what you did, and it highlights what is a 32 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: significant problem, particularly in the business and corporate American culture, 33 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: is that you hear them give so much lip service. 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: And I call it lip service because they do exactly 35 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. Is that they will promote, they 36 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: will talk about diversity, talk about inclusion, and then on 37 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: the other end, they will fight against it at the 38 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: same time by donating to people who have a clear 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: agenda against those principles they allege that they stand for 40 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: in this political climate, which kind of leads into the 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: question you ask me, a lot of people want to 42 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: take stands without risk. Doesn't work that way. Is that 43 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: you either are working actively against racism, actively against some 44 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: of these values and principle that lead us to having 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: a more diversive, inclusive society, or you're working for it. 46 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: You can't be working against and for it at the 47 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: same time. There is a certainly an attack on journalism now, 48 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, an attack on journalists. Some of it 49 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: is financial attack in the sense that people should be 50 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: very wary, they should be appalled, they should be quite 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: concerned that the media business is kind of growing smaller, 52 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: fewer companies are owning more things, and that's not really 53 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: how journalism was intentioned to be. When I first got 54 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: into the business, a lot of newspapers were family owned 55 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: companies and they were not at the mercy of stockholders, 56 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: and that allowed, I think, for journalism to be in 57 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: a different place. That's not to say that from a 58 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: diversity standpoint and an inclusion standpoint, it was good, because 59 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: a lot of the same problems that exist then existed now. 60 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: But at least the type of journalism that was being 61 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: done it was different, as in there was a commitment, 62 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: an active commitment to investigative journalism, to telling the truth, 63 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: to holding the powers that be that are accountable. I mean, 64 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: most of us got into this profession to be that 65 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: We're not supposed to be aligned with the power structure. 66 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: That's not how it works. We're supposed to be actively 67 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: challenging them on a consistent basis, and we do that 68 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: through truth and accuracy and fairness. And so it is 69 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: disheartening to me that because of the boom of social 70 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: media and just the boom even within the structures of journalism, 71 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: that there's a heavier emphasis on opinion and commentary as 72 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: opposed to dealing with the truth. That it has retrained 73 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: viewers and listeners to only seek out news sources that 74 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: already validate their opinions. Now, before that might not have 75 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: been a problem because everybody was pretty much playing in 76 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: somewhat straight But now that you have networks and outlets 77 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: that actively cater to opinions often based in ignorance, it 78 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: really makes a journalist job that much more difficult. Yeah, 79 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, I find that at one hand, I think 80 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: that social media has democratized communication in a way that 81 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: allows everyone right to have a platform, and not just 82 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: the top five news stations. It allows everyone to quote unquote, 83 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: I spy reporters right, they are seeing things on the 84 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: ground and then they're able to share them with the 85 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: people that follow. I think about Ferguson for instance, right, 86 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: and how at the time when Mike Brown was killed 87 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: and people are flooding the streets in protest, and at 88 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: that time, not one cable news station as this news 89 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: was breaking, as people were gathering, not one news station 90 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: was covering it. And had it not been for people 91 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: that were on the ground in Ferguson tweeting and sharing videos, 92 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: and then it grew and grew and grew, only then 93 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,679 Speaker 1: did cable news decide to pick it up. Right, Only 94 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: then did people start to write about it. And so 95 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: on one hand, I think, wow, how extraordinary, right that 96 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: the violence that affects communities of color, Black communities in 97 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: particular are not silenced. Right. I sometimes ask myself, is 98 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: it that there are more black people that are being killed? 99 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: Is there more injustice that is happening, or are we 100 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: just able to report on it more because of the 101 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: social media platforms that we have access to. But at 102 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: the same time, those same mediums have become arenas for bullying, right, 103 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: And you know, in that respect, I want to talk 104 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: with you about twenty seventeen and Donald Trump I don't 105 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: refer to him on my shows as president. I've referred 106 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: to him as a piece of shit. But that's just me. 107 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: But you know, Trump does what he has been doing 108 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: since he was elected, and I use air quotes around that. 109 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: Since he was elected president of the United States, he's 110 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: been using Twitter as his platform to bully people, specifically 111 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: women of color, into silence. And back in twenty seventeen, 112 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: you were the target of one of those tweets because 113 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: you had referred to him as many people had reported 114 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: the facts of Donald Trump being a white supremist and 115 00:06:54,920 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: being in support of white supremists following the marches in Charlotte'svie, 116 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: where he said that there were good people on both sides. 117 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: Can you just tell folks remind them kind of what 118 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: that moment was that brought you to send that tweet 119 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: and then what it felt like to be on the 120 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: other end of Trump's wrath. For me, I didn't really 121 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: think I was doing anything special, and it was one 122 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: of the most unoriginal things I've ever said, because I 123 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: really thought that a lot of people already knew that, 124 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: and apparently they did not. But like a lot of people, 125 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: especially people of color, especially black women. I had reached 126 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: the point of disgust with the things that I was 127 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: seeing Charlottesville, comments made by Donald Trump, and it was 128 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: just kind of a culmination fed up black girl moment 129 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: that I had and going back and forth with a 130 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: Twitter user who was trying to present the case that 131 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: he was not, in fact a white supremacist. And I 132 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: think part of the reason why people are still arguing 133 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: this some people, I feel like that group is actually 134 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: dwindling is that they don't really understand what a white 135 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: supremacist is. People in certain groups, certainly a lot of 136 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: privileged people, they tend to think of white supremacists or 137 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: white nationalists as people walking around with hoods and torches 138 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing, not understanding that it's far 139 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: more subtle, and the subtlety makes it even more dangerous. 140 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: If you have the inherent belief, which Donald Trump has 141 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: expressed many times, that certain groups of people are more 142 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: worthy than others, or in more inferior than others, you 143 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: are a white supremacist. It's just that simple, Like it's 144 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: it couldn't be a more clear cut definition. So what 145 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: he has said about African countries, about Mexico, that's things 146 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: that white supremacists say because they inherently believe that they're better. 147 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: And when he was talking about how the US needs 148 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: more immigrants from nice countries and he named all the 149 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: largely white ones, that's what a white supremacist says. Okay, 150 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: So this is not even hard. This is not the 151 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: Pythagorean theorem. Okay, that's like really easy to figure out. 152 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: So it just all the combination of seeing the things 153 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: I was seeing happening in this country just overnight. It 154 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: seems like the tone, tenor climate of this country changed. 155 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: And this is not to suggest that I would not 156 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: give Donald Trump enough credit to say that he invented 157 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: racism or that it didn't exist before he took office. 158 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: It did loudly in a lot of places. But just 159 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: I think we all can agree something changed in twenty sixteen. 160 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: And so with me going back and forth with this 161 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: Twitter user when I called him a white supremacist and 162 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: said he's surrounded himselves with white supremacists, which is also 163 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: a fact. Hello, you know, Steve Bannon. I mean it's 164 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: like it's such a fact, right, And Stephen Miller, like, 165 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: these are guys who traffic in white supremacy, in white nationalism. 166 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: They always have. There's not a shock to anybody who 167 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: has kept themselves some what informed of these issues. I 168 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: just didn't really think it was going to be that 169 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: big of a deal, which is why I said it, 170 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: because you know, I guess had I known or had 171 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: a second thought that this is gonna become the national 172 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: story that it did, I don't know. Maybe I would 173 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: have decided not to press in, but I honestly didn't 174 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: really think it was that big of a deal. And 175 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: much to my surprise, it became such a big deal 176 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: that Sarah Huckabee Sanders said I should be fired, and 177 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: Donald Trump blamed me for ESPN's ratings falling, and it 178 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: became this big bruhaha. I wasn't bothered by what I said. 179 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: I don't regret it. It's still a fact, by the way, 180 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: and I don't wish for anything differently, and the ways 181 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: that it changed my life. I don't care what the 182 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: President thinks about me at all. I don't care if 183 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: Sara Huckaby Sanders thinks about me, none of them, because frankly, 184 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: I don't even respect him enough to care, so it 185 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. But what I do care about is the 186 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: fact that he has a certain element and a following 187 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 1: and a cultish fan base that follows him. That it 188 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: disrupted my life having to deal with them. So that 189 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: was the only part that was a little more unnerving 190 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: because I remember me and well he was then my boyfriend. 191 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: He's my husband now, but me, him and his father 192 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: and another friend of mine. We were going to a 193 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: Monday night football game in New Jersey to see the 194 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: Giants play the Lions because my boyfriend's a huge Lions fan, 195 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: and so I had to have security, you know, and 196 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: that's not something I'm used to. You know. I got 197 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of death threats, there were you know, ESPN's 198 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: switchboard at the time got totally lit up. My voicemail 199 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 1: at ESPN was deactivated the last year or so I 200 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: was there, Like post Trump, I deactivated my voicemail because 201 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: people were leaving such nasty, horrible, threatening messages. I just 202 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: didn't even want that in my ecosystem of my mind 203 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: every day. And it wasn't until actually recently that I 204 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: went through some of the snailmail that I received. I 205 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: had it tucked away, but for an event I was 206 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: doing a storytelling event, I decided to read it and 207 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: make it kind of a part of the speech that 208 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: I gave. And you know, it was harsh, like it 209 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: was hard, it was hard to read. It doesn't affect 210 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: my spirit because I know who I am. These people 211 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: don't know me, but just to think about the level 212 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: of hatred that he can inspire and a lot of 213 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: people is really frightening. And so that was the way 214 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: it disrupted my life. And even having to deal with 215 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: all of that, I still wouldn't change anything I said, 216 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 1: because I think as journalists that's part of our job 217 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: is that we have to say what it is. If 218 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: we lose our capacity to tell the truth, then we've 219 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: undercut and undermined everything we stand for. It like we can't. 220 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: You mentioned a few moments ago about how we're in 221 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: this time of euphemisms where so many newspapers and media 222 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: outlets have a problem telling people that Donald Trump is 223 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: an outright liar when he lies constantly, Like it's okay 224 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: to call him a liar because he's lying, he's not 225 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: telling the truth. They'll say a bunch of things like 226 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: here's another falsehood, or here is something that we fact checked. 227 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: And I said, you know, if you can teach a 228 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: kindergartner right right from wrong, right true from false, and 229 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: say that is a lie. You know, we don't lie, 230 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: which many parents and caregivers tell their children not to do. 231 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: Then why are these decorated newspapers and outlets dancing around 232 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: that fact? And they said, well, the Washington Post has 233 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: a tracker, and up to this point, they have tracked 234 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: over sixteen thousand lies that the President of the United 235 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: States has told correct, so it's okay to call him 236 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: a liar because he is. And so you know, this 237 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: is not somebody who gets caught in one or two lies, 238 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: as you just mentioned that horrific fact. We're talking about 239 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: sixteen thousand. But even when I engage the few times, 240 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: because it's becoming less and less, it's like I engage 241 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: in people who support Donald Trump or are just not 242 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: as bothered by what he has done to this country 243 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: and this presidency in particular, because I hope people understand 244 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: that the office of the presidency will never be the 245 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: same now ever, and he's permanently changed. That is that 246 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: they want to use euphemisms like, oh, he's just not 247 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: politically correct, like no, no, no no, no, no, no, no, 248 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: politically not being politically correct is maybe swearing when you shouldn't. Occasionally, 249 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: it could be joking about things that are taboo. That's 250 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: not politically Kurbac, it is racist to detigrade and say 251 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: some of the things that he said about other people. 252 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: It's like, that's what that is. And I think the 253 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: people who continue to support this man, they will not 254 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: own up to the fact that the reason they support 255 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: him is not because he's not politically correct and they're 256 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: so tired of the political correctness of oh, I don't know, 257 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: respecting people and giving them their dignity, which I again 258 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: I always find that it isn't that fascinating when they 259 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: say that. It's like, what does that even mean? They're 260 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: supporting them because they believe in what he says. It's 261 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: just no other way around it. That's why I said that, Yes, 262 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: at this point, you can think it's harsh, your feelings 263 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: can be heard about it. If you support the president, 264 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: if you voted for him, you're a white supremacist because 265 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: either one or two things are the case. Either you're 266 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: okay with white supremacy and racism, which what does that 267 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: say about you? Or you believe what he believes. So 268 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: either way, because I find the people that are just 269 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: okay with it happening and saying like, oh, well, you know, 270 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: I get this out of it. So, yeah, he could 271 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: be a while racist. Cool, you're a white supremacist. Own 272 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: up to it, you know, like you hear it, But 273 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: I don't care about hurting your feelings anymore. Yeah. I 274 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: think that it's important for people to own those things. 275 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: But I also think that it's important for journalists who 276 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: press people on that, right. Like, you know, following the 277 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen election, we had I don't know how many 278 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: articles that came out that said that the reason that 279 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: why Hillary Clinton lost wasn't the fact that Vladimir Putin 280 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: stole our election, right, Wasn't the fact that he propped 281 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: up Donald Trump, wasn't the fact of all of these 282 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: things was because Hillary Clinton paid more attention to identity politics, 283 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: and that was the problem. Right. And so if we 284 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: want to win elections, we can't talk about race and 285 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: we can't talk about racism, and we have to pretend 286 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: that the people that voted for Donald Trump did so 287 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: out of economic anxiety. Well, we've had I don't know 288 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: how many studies that have come out, because white people 289 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: really need studies. I don't know how many studies that 290 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: came out that said, in fact, the opposite, the reason 291 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: why white folks voted for Donald Trump was because of 292 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: white nationalism, was because they are fearing the demographic shift, 293 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: because they know what it's like to be on top 294 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: and how they've treated everybody else on the bottom, and 295 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: they're afraid now to be on the bottom. Yeah, which 296 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: is really interesting because even when we had those opportunities, 297 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: we've rarely taken them. The fear is that, I think 298 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: the realization that is exactly what you said, But on 299 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: top of that, it's the realization that maybe they weren't 300 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: as smart as they think they are, maybe they're a 301 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: lot more mediocre than they want to acknowledge. And the 302 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: reality is that some of them, not all of them, 303 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: have been able to ascend to certain positions, attain certain things, 304 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: not based off their talent and ability, but purely based 305 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: off their positioning and because of white privilege. And that's 306 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: a hard thing to reconcile with, is that you have 307 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: been an active participant in keeping a lot institutional racism. 308 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: It's hard to face that. And that's why I think 309 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: people get so defensive and as much as they keep 310 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: you know, consistently, we've seen a bunch of these videos 311 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: on social media, and it particularly, unfortunately happens to Hispanics 312 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: and Latinos more than anybody when they get that why 313 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: don't you go back to your country, or why don't 314 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: you do this? Or why do you do that? Which 315 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: is really funny a nation founded on basically immigrants, But 316 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: that's neither hearing on there. You know. The reason that 317 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: it's drawing that response is like their worst nightmare is 318 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: that they will walk into a grocery store and everybody 319 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: then and there will be speaking Spanish and they have 320 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: no idea what's going on. Juxtapose that with the fact 321 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: that we deal with that all the time, is that, yeah, 322 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: white people may not be speaking a different language, but 323 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: we're far more used to encounters where we're the only 324 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: person in the room of color, the only woman, the 325 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: only black woman, the only black person, any of those 326 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: categories we fit, so we can adapt. It's not a 327 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: big deal for us. They, on the other hand, have 328 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: never been forced into those situations, or usually they aren't, 329 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: and so because of that, I think it has created 330 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: a sense of panic and it doesn't help. Again, as 331 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: I mentioned where Unfortunately media has played a part in 332 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: this is that if they believe that they can go 333 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: to outlets hello, Fox News, that only continually reinforce that 334 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: belief that they have something to fear by this country 335 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: becoming more inclusive and diverse in them not being the majority. 336 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: So they're allowing themselves to be played by a fear 337 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: that is so baseless and ridiculous that they have decided 338 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: to push their center of the chips to the table. 339 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: They don't care about how immoral it is. And I'm 340 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: especially tickled by these Christian evangelicals who continue, in their 341 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: utter disrespect of God, who they supposedly stand for, continue 342 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: to the support, supposedly continue to support this man based 343 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: off nothing else but white supremacy. That's it, right. You know, 344 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to hear that. You know, had you 345 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: had the opportunity to do things over again, right, and 346 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: I know that you've said this many of times in 347 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, if you had the opportunity to say, you 348 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: know what, I'm not going to send that tweet or 349 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: I'm not going to respond in this way that you 350 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: said that you wouldn't do it over that. In fact, 351 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: having done that kind of changed the trajectory of your 352 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: life in some ways. Can you talk about what it 353 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: means to own your power and your voice in a 354 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: way now that is different from before the tweet. I've 355 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: always considered myself as somebody who didn't pull any punches, 356 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: but I was strategic about the punches that I threw. 357 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: And now I think while I am still somewhat strategic 358 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: because I you know, I've always wanted to be the 359 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: type of person that you know, when I said something, 360 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: it resonated and it mattered, and so I wanted to 361 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: be careful about what I decided to be vocal about. 362 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: So that part still exists, you know, to some degree. 363 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: But I think you know what happened, especially given how 364 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: my work life is designed. Now I have a sense 365 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: of freedom and autonomy and confidence that I haven't had 366 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: to this level at this point in my life and career, 367 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: because ultimately, the people that want to mess with me 368 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: mess with me, and the people who don't don't. And 369 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: I don't find myself feeling as if I have to 370 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: edit myself, or feeling as if I have to curb 371 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: who I actually am, or that I don't have to 372 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: say certain things, you know, for fear of, oh, it 373 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: may cost me this opportunity or that opportunity. I haven't 374 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 1: thought about that in a long time, because once you know, 375 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: the White House calls for you to be you know, fired. 376 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I think people pretty much know what they're getting, 377 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: and so so there's no surprises to sum it up 378 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: this way, and so not to continue to ramble is 379 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: I'm more concerned about the people in the room. I 380 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: don't think about the people who are not there. It's 381 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: a party. Analogy I like to use is that I'm 382 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: worried about throwing the do opest party for all the 383 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: people who want to come to the party, so that 384 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, when it's two am, they ain't trying to leave. 385 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: They got all the drinks they want to get. You know, 386 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: they having a great time. I ain't worried about the 387 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 1: people outside in the line trying to get in, not 388 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: worried about those worried about having the dopest party of 389 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: the people that you have around you forget about the 390 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: people who aren't there. And so having that mentality, I 391 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: think has allowed me to write the best that I've 392 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: ever had to broadcast the best that I ever had 393 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: to do. My podcast in a way that I don't 394 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: think I would have done it two years ago. It's 395 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: just given me just a new and renewed sense of 396 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: confidence in myself, in my abilities, and I'm constantly getting 397 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: proof and evidence that you don't have to curb your integrity, 398 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: your beliefs to fit into this industry. So I don't 399 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: care about really fitting in that way anymore. And I'm 400 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: grateful and I thank God that I've reached this point 401 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: of autonomy because I've spent over twenty years in this 402 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: business building to get to this point, and so I 403 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: can't regret anything that happened along the way, because if 404 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: I did, I may not have been able to get here. Essentially, 405 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: your description of where you are right now is essentially 406 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: the description of black girl magic. It's the idea that 407 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: you know, there are so many obstacles that are placed 408 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: in our way or duct tape tried to be placed 409 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: on our mouths to shut us up, but the ability 410 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: to keep not only pushing forward right, but to create 411 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: something that is yours. That's why there are more black 412 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: women entrepreneurs in this country than any other group, because 413 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: we will consistently create right in the absence of roles 414 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: being created for us, and I personally love that about 415 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: Black women. Yeah, I mean with black women right now. 416 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 1: Believe statistically we're the only racial ethnic group that owns 417 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: more businesses than our male peers. So it's I think 418 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: a lot of us have decided. And I noticed this 419 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: trend honestly among millennials too, who because of the access 420 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: to information and everything, they're able to get this point. 421 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: I think quicker than a lot of people. For my generation, 422 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: and certainly from the generation that's above me, is there's 423 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: a lot of us that are choosing for our mental health, 424 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: for our financial health, for a multiplitude of reasons. We're 425 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: choosing to do our own thing versus try to fit 426 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: into a corporate structure or to a system that wasn't 427 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: designed to ever consider us anyway. We just decided, I guess, 428 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: for lack of a better analogy, a lot of people now, 429 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: I notice, more so than ever, I've taken the Tyler 430 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: Barrier approach. I mean, I love all the Tyler Barriers movies, 431 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: but I do appreciate, Yeah, I do appreciate how he 432 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: systematically methodically created his own system. He never worked within 433 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,959 Speaker 1: the confines of Hollywood, ever, and I think he's a 434 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: really great example of what can be accomplished, of what 435 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: you can do when you decide that you're going to 436 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: create your own table, as opposed to waiting for somebody 437 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: to invite you to one. I think that that's right 438 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: as someone and I will openly admit the fact that 439 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: sports is not my go too. It's not why I 440 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: just adore you. It's just the boldness in the way 441 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: that you write. And I have noticed and maybe I'm wrong, 442 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: but I obviously want your thoughts. Is that you mentioned 443 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: before you would not necessarily have said some of the 444 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: things that you have said on your podcasts unbothered or 445 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: written in the way that you are now writing for 446 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: The Atlantic and some of the pieces that come up 447 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: for me. Are you know the NFL owners have a 448 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: problem with coaches of color? Would you have written that 449 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: in the bold way that you did a few years ago? Well, 450 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: I think and I've written and had commentary while I 451 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: was at ESPN about the NFL, you know, and their 452 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: lack of diversity and hiring. But I didn't make as 453 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: specific of the arguments as I made for The Atlantic 454 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: at ESPN. Is you're in a much more uncomfortable position 455 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: because ESPN is in business with the NFL. And one 456 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: of the reasons I chose to go back to writing 457 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: and go back to writing for a publication or entity 458 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: where writing was the main thing and you know they 459 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: weren't in business with any leagues or anything like that, 460 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: is because I wouldn't have to worry about trying to 461 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: juggle and navigate an uncomfortable position of trying to write 462 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: honestly and truthfully about a situation while knowing that the 463 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: people you're doing it for are in business with the 464 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: people you're criticizing. And even though no one at ESPN 465 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: ever told me I couldn't say certain things about the NFL, 466 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: as the old adage goes, was understood need not be said. 467 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: And so when I wrote this particular piece for The Atlantic, 468 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to broaden it out and not just look 469 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: at the plight of black coaches in the NFL, but 470 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: related to the plight of black people period in corporate America. 471 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: And which is why I referenced that study that was 472 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: done that you know, showed the level of dissatisfaction that 473 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: black people have who work in corporate America, because the 474 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: NFL operates very similarly and generally, I mean, right now 475 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: in this country, it's four black CEOs of the fortune 476 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: five hundred companies four, So you're not going to convince 477 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: me four hundred and ninety six others are smarter than 478 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: all the black people record. But they have convinced themselves 479 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: of that, of course. And I think that that to 480 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: me was what was you know, so alarming about the 481 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: piece that you wrote, because it goes into your piece 482 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: where you're just like, this is the reason why there 483 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: weren't black quarterbacks, because there's this belief that black men 484 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: can't lead, right, And it goes back to these ingrained 485 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: stereotypes of blackness, right, and white superiority. And I thought 486 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: that the correlation that you were making between corporate America 487 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: and the NFL and how they function together goes deeply 488 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: into the roots of America, right and our belief and 489 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: structure creating systems around white superiority and understanding that to 490 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: be true regardless of the industry that you're in. I mean, 491 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: that's a bulls eye right there. Everything you said. That's 492 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: why in the column I wanted to address the fact that, 493 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 1: whether they want to admit it or not, they have certain, 494 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: as you said in grain, stereotypes about black men, and 495 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: that's why they do not see at this position them 496 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: as leader. They think white leadership is inhebitably better. And 497 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: that's why the goal posts keep moving. And there's a 498 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: lot of black coaches that are getting caught up in 499 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: the spend cycle because the NFL, when they're doing hiring cycles, 500 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: it's always some architect of what they're trying to find, 501 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: or archetype, i should say, of what they're trying to find. 502 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: Because of the success of some younger coaches, suddenly the 503 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: InVogue thing was to hire thirty some year olds that 504 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: didn't have a ton of experience, but they were considered 505 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: to be able to better relate to the players because 506 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: they were closer in age, and they were more open 507 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: in hip in terms of installing new offenses, and they 508 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: just had the millennial approach to relating the players. Meanwhile, 509 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: for a decade, you've been telling black coaches, now, you 510 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: got to have a lot of experience. That's the only 511 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: that's why you guys aren't getting jobs. You don't have 512 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: enough experience. Meanwhile, everybody's looking around the league and seeing 513 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: a number of coaches, black coaches who have been in 514 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: the game fifteen years, twenty years, held a bunch of 515 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: different positions, still can't get a job. So they moved 516 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: the goalpost real quick. Now all of a sudden, it's 517 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: about younger and more dynamic. Okay, that's fine, do what 518 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,479 Speaker 1: you do. Then all of a sudden, it's like, well, 519 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: who can relate to the quarterback and who's been a 520 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: quarterbacks coach? And that's more important. It just continually is 521 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: a game of leap frog where the NFL is just 522 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: moving the line all the time. And the reason why 523 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: they are is because the truth is, they just don't 524 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: believe in black leadership. Just say what it is, and 525 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: they believe in it as certain positions, but they don't 526 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: consider it's the same stereotypes as you mentioned that held 527 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: the league back from having a proliferation of black quarterbacks. 528 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: Quarterback is considered a face of the franchise leadership position. 529 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: You have to be able to inspire fifty something other 530 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: men to follow you, to run through a brick wall 531 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: for you. And they never thought a team would get 532 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,239 Speaker 1: behind a black man in that way. Part of it 533 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: is they're projecting because they don't do it, so they're thinking, 534 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: why would these other dudes do it too? And they 535 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: don't do it and in their business life and their 536 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: personal life or whatever. You know, there's a reason why 537 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: we've had forty five presidents only one of them has 538 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: been black, because of our idea in this country, the 539 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: picture of leadership is always somebody white. And it's why 540 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: we're in this kind of complete fuckery of a democratic 541 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: presidential field right now is because you see what's emerging 542 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: and I was like, wow, that's really interesting. So now 543 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: we've gone all the way back to the only people 544 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: who can beat Donald Trump are other old white men. Okay, congratulations, right, 545 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: so the clock back, Yeah, precisely. But it gets back 546 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: to that same feeling. And I'm not gonna totally blame 547 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: you know, white people for it. I'm not gonna say 548 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: I would blame black people for it, but a lot 549 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: of us wind up inheriting and adopting those same stereotypes 550 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: that the oppressors have of our own people, of thinking 551 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: like it's not gonna be good enough because of this. 552 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: And so anyway, long story short, or you know, just 553 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: again to stop my rambling, is that the way that 554 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: I attacked what I wrote was in a way that 555 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: was infinitely more nuanced and a little more direct to 556 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: the target, then I know I would have done at ESPN. 557 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: And that's you know, one of the reasons why. And 558 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: this is not to demean or disrespect my time at ESPN. 559 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: It's the best job, you know, I've ever had. I 560 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: was there twelve years. The majority of those years were 561 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: very happy, and I grew as a journalist in ways 562 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: I could not have imagined. But at the same time, 563 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: you know, ESPN is a part of this ecosystem that 564 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to be able to write a little more 565 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: honestly about, and I've been able to do that at 566 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: The Atlantic. Yeah, and I you know, and I love 567 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: one of the other quotes that you said about your 568 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: time at ESPN and your decision to which is that 569 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: two things can be true at the same time. They 570 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: ESPN can protect their business and I have the right 571 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: to protect my integrity. And I think that that to 572 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: me sums up you know a truth that real journalists, 573 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: and I emphasize the word real in this day and age, 574 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: really need to hold onto this idea of where their 575 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: integrity lies. And look, I am not somebody that is 576 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: going to tell anyone to turn down a check right 577 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: and not be able to pay their mortgage or their rent, 578 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: or you know, provide for their families or themselves. But 579 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: at the same time, if you don't have integrity, what 580 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: do you have? Right? If you can't really look yourself 581 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: in the mirror or feel good about the work that 582 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: you're doing, then what are you doing? And so and 583 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: so I feel like the decisions that you have made 584 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: and the movements that you have made over the past 585 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: couple of years really signify that and make you emblematic 586 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: of integrity and journalism and what that looks like. And 587 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: I feel you know too, that it has been over 588 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: there so the fuckery of this entire administration, that it 589 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: has been black women in a variety of places and 590 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: spaces that have been holding down the integrity of this country. 591 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: I saw somebody tweet this, and I don't know if 592 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: it was because it was their thought or the thought 593 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: of someone else. Is that you look across the span 594 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: of our history, black women have always been the conscious 595 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: of America, always, always, And I think it's an unfair burden, frankly, 596 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: and one that we shouldn't be strapped with. Regardless. One 597 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,479 Speaker 1: of the last things that I would love to get 598 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: your thoughts on, obviously, you have throughout the stance against 599 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: Colin Kaepernick and him not being signed, and then the 600 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: bogus workout that was put together, and then jay Z 601 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: deciding to create a partnership with the NFL. You've been 602 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: very outspoken for the past several years on this. Why 603 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: do you feel that? And don't let me put words 604 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: in your mouth, but this is really like my feeling. 605 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: Why do we as a country. Is it okay for 606 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: us to embrace men that are batterers, sexual assaulters, addicts 607 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: and what have you. We can rehab those people right 608 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: and keep them in the league or keep them in 609 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: positions of power, but when it comes to black people 610 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: owning their space, their place, their voice, and trying to 611 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: bring attention to oppression that is still very much being experienced, 612 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: we need to shut them down. And that's from you know, 613 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: the NFL onward right. And I feel like, one, this 614 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: is a two part question, why is that seemingly okay? 615 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: And then two, what do we do about people that 616 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: decide like a jay Z, who I have admired and 617 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: appreciated from a business standpoint, from a music standpoint, for 618 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: basically my whole life. What does it say about those 619 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: that then decide to create partnerships with whom I believe 620 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: to be, you know, the devil in sheep's clothing, the 621 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: wolf in sheep's clothing. Well, the reason why Colin Kaepernick 622 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: is such a turnoff, but somebody who has been accused 623 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: of or has actually committed domestic violence is not is 624 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: because in the eyes of sports fans, and maybe in 625 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: the eyes of more than just sports fans as well. 626 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: But that is a correctable and I put this in 627 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: air quotes behavior like you can convince somebody that wants 628 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: to just enjoy the games and isn't trying to be 629 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: too turned off if they have to think too hard 630 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: about who these players are and in some cases what 631 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: they've done to harm other people, you can convince them 632 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: they don't do that anymore. You know. That's why they 633 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: go through these intense processes to show people they're different 634 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: and nothing we don't ever actually see what's different. Only 635 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: two things usually changes, and that is because we don't 636 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: know these people. We have no idea, right. The only 637 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: thing that usually changes is they start winning, and there's 638 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: a sports in particular to associate winning with character and 639 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: they have nothing to do with each other, or they 640 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: just stay out of the news. That's it. It's like, 641 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: as far as we know, they're not beating any women 642 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: or assaulting any women because we haven't read about it. 643 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: So we just then make the leap like, oh, they've changed. 644 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: So these are easy things to sell to the public. 645 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: Which you can't sell to the public is that Colin 646 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: Kaepernick woke up and he said, you know what, despite 647 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: everything I said about police brutality, y'all are right, police 648 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: don't brutalize black people. They don't. You can't change somebody's 649 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: critical thinking in their mind that, especially about something that 650 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: is about a system of oppression and institutional racism. You 651 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: can't sell to people that they don't think this exists anymore, 652 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: because it does, and it's much more uncomfortable because it's 653 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: in your face, and a lot of people then have 654 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: to start projecting inward and say, okay, well, if I'm 655 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: okay with the structure again, what does this say about me? 656 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 1: If I don't want to be reminded of the fact 657 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: that these players that on Sundays that I put on 658 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: this high pedestal that ideified, I don't want to be 659 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,439 Speaker 1: reminded about where they come from and the dangers them 660 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: and their children face. I don't want to think about that. 661 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: I want to say and name things like keep politics 662 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: out of sports. When every game I go through they 663 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: sing the national anthem and there's military flyovers, I don't 664 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: want to think about that. So everybody kind of wants 665 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: this to be easily digestible, and it never has been 666 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: and it never will be. So you have to be 667 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: willing to do the tough work of thinking your way 668 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: through it, and you know understanding that life and things 669 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: are complicated. And while I do get, especially in this time, 670 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: that a lot of fans just want to enjoy their 671 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: sports and not think about the atrocities happening in the 672 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: White House or the horrors of this administration, or just 673 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: don't want to be reminded about ship period that's going on. 674 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: I get you want to unplug for two hours or 675 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 1: three hours and just worry about who scored more touchdowns 676 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: and what this means to your fantasy team. But that 677 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: ain't life. And I think because we've seen sports politics 678 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: race gender always intertwined. The only thing that's different with 679 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: Colin Kaepernick is that right now people are trying to 680 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: act like he won't be on the right side of history. 681 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: The only thing that changed about Muhammad Ali Why but 682 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: he became embraced. Well, it was two things. One he 683 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 1: got sick. Two everybody saw he was right. Years later, 684 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: once everybody was able to do the autopsy on Vietnam 685 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: and everything that happened, they're like, damn, he kind of 686 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: had a point. But why are you waiting to after 687 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: the fact if you consider yourself a little bit courageous, 688 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: a little bit brave, the time to support people is 689 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: when they're going through the worst shit, not after they've 690 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: been proven right. It's very interesting to me that the 691 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: International Olympic Committee, well, I guess the started from the 692 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: United States Olympic Committee when it came to Tommy Smith 693 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: and John Carlos who raised their fist, you know, over 694 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: fifty years ago, to bring attention and awareness to the 695 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: fact that this bite standing on this metal stand and 696 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: representing America, they were not welcome in their own country. 697 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: They were kicked off the team, totally ostracized, just criticized, 698 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: and every corner called all the same things conin Kaepernick 699 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: is being called. Only for years later the Olympic Committee 700 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: to say, oh, we want to honor them, and at 701 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: the same time pass a resolution that bans athletes from 702 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: making those similar stances on the metal podium. So it's 703 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: like the more people say, oh, you learn from history, No, 704 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: we do not learn from history. We literally do the 705 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: same shit over and over again. So that's one piece 706 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: of it. Your second question about aligning partnerships, This has 707 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: always been the tension in the movement within our community, 708 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: civil rights movement, every movement. Is it better to work 709 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: from within or work from outside and put the pressure 710 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: on the people that you're trying to change, often through 711 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: economic means, boycotting and the like. Both can be accomplished. 712 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: But when you choose to work from the end, as 713 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: jay Z is choosing to do, you gotta be careful 714 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: and aware of who you're dealing with. And this is 715 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: not to discredit or disrespect jay Z, who's very smart 716 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: and obviously become me hip Hop's first billionaire, Like he 717 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,720 Speaker 1: knows what he's doing. But the NFL is different because 718 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: of the structure in the setup. This is thirty two 719 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,439 Speaker 1: owners who operate as independent nations. To get approval by 720 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 1: the owners is difficult, and people are saying like, oh, 721 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: maybe he's trying to make an ownership play. They've never 722 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: had a black owner, and I could tell you jay 723 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: Z ain't gonna be the first one. I hope I'm wrong. 724 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: And by being an owner, I don't mean a steak. 725 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: You're gonna have a There's a lot of black celebrities 726 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: that do have steaks and teams like Serena has a 727 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: steak of the Dolphins. You know, I think Jay Low 728 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: does as well. So there's a lot. You know, you 729 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,839 Speaker 1: get like point five percent or point two percent. You 730 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,879 Speaker 1: have no hiring power, no firing power, no decision making 731 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: power whatsoever. Zero Unless you can get to that magic 732 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: number of fifty one percent of owning an NFL team, 733 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: that's the only time you can change anything that's happening. 734 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: So Roger Goodell works for the thirty two owners. The 735 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: thirty two owners weren't at that PR show that they 736 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: made about the partnership. What is it that the NFL 737 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: has that jay Z needs? The answers nothing nothing, they 738 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: need him? Okay, I mean he rapped about it. Yes, 739 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: you know, I don't need you. I feel stadiums too correct. 740 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: So it's like, why give them what they want? Because 741 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: what they were trying to do, and they pointed this 742 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: out the new York Times did a great story about 743 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: this when they got the audio tapes of the meeting 744 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: that happened between the players and the NFL owners as 745 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: they tried to sort out what to do about this protest. 746 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: One of the things that was said in the meeting 747 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: by the Bills owner, he said, it we need a liaison. 748 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: We need a face to take the issue of social 749 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: justice away from KLi Kaepernick from being the face and 750 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: projected onto someone else. Hello, jay Z. It may not 751 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: have been used typically that we're a part of the 752 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 1: game plan, but their game plan was to get a 753 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: black person to help them ease their way into the 754 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: good graces of the black community, and they got somebody 755 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: who obviously is universally respected by most of us, and 756 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: immediately it put everybody at odds. It took the heat 757 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: off the NFL. You can't say it's time to move 758 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: past Colin Kaepernick when the NFL has created an entire 759 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: social justice campaign that they would not have cared about 760 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,399 Speaker 1: if not for Colin Kaepernick, and just erase him from 761 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: the picture. If Jay Z wants to change some of 762 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: the structures in the NFL. While I'm sure the money 763 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: the NFL has created in partnership with jay Z in 764 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: the players coalition, it's going for real things and there's 765 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: tangible successes that are happening on the ground in the trenches. 766 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,919 Speaker 1: That's great. What the NFL needs to address is why 767 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 1: is there only one black general manager? Why has there 768 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: never been an NFL owner? How come there's only in 769 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: this hiring cycle, there were nine coaching openings and only 770 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: one person of color was hired. Why are there only 771 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 1: I think it's three coaches of color as head coaches. 772 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: That's the stuff the NFL needs to deal with. And 773 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, as the curator of the Super Bowl, how 774 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: is jay Z getting them better musical acts going to 775 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: change any of that? It won't. He's not an owner. 776 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: He's not gonna be able to walk into Jerry Jones 777 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: office and say, you know what, hire this black guy. Nah, 778 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: it doesn't work that way. So to me, they got 779 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: everything they wanted out of the deal, which is re 780 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: establishing that relationship with the African American community because they 781 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: know there's a lot of black fans. It was so 782 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,439 Speaker 1: much attention. It's much like with all the stories that 783 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: have been about the election and leading up to the election, 784 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: about how you know, they become this endless stories about 785 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 1: the heartland and what rule voters think and all this 786 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: and that right, such a concentration on them, which I 787 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: read as we just care what these white people think 788 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: about this election, and that's it. I was like, Okay, 789 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: never mind like eight five percent of people live in 790 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: metropolitan areas, you focus on the three that live in 791 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: Kansas somewhere cool do that. So beyond that, it's been 792 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: the same thing with Colin Kaepernick. A lot of focus 793 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 1: on all the people who don't want Colin Kaepernick on 794 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: their team, who don't like Colin Kaepernick. Meanwhile, his stuff 795 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: is selling out in Nike. They can't keep any of 796 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 1: his things on the shelves. Black people and a lot 797 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,879 Speaker 1: of other people of other races support Colin Kaepernick. It's 798 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: probably just as many on both sides, but the NFL 799 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: decided to cater to only one group, and that group 800 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: is led by the president because that was a big 801 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 1: piece of this too. Donald Trump seal Colin Kaepernick's fate 802 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 1: and that sham work out again wasn't going to change that. 803 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,879 Speaker 1: Donald Trump told Jerry Jones, which Jerry Jones testified during 804 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: Colin Kaepernick's grievance hearing Donald Trump told him not to 805 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: put Colin Kaepernick on a team because this is a 806 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: winning issue for him. In other words, one of the 807 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,879 Speaker 1: few things that a lot of people who aren't Trump 808 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: supporters could kind of agree on a little bit was 809 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: that his protest was misguided and misplaced and they didn't 810 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: have place in the NFL. He knew that, which is 811 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: why he kept saying his name at rallies. He was 812 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: gonna get one topic that he could probably get a 813 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: little bit more than majority support, unlike some of the 814 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: other things that he says. And he pretty much told 815 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: the NFL, if you put this dude in the league, 816 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 1: his name is never getting out of my mouth. The 817 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,800 Speaker 1: NFL wants to eliminate those bad headlines, eliminate that division. 818 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 1: So the easiest thing to do was to make sure 819 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: that Colin Kaepernick never had a job in the NFL. 820 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 1: No amount of partnership was going to change that as 821 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,800 Speaker 1: far as Jay Z being involved, And so that workout 822 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: was just disgraceful and disrespectful to Colin Kaepernick. And you 823 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 1: know what, he went through it anyway. And so for 824 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 1: those people who questioned whether or not he actually wanted 825 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: to be playing football again. Why would a man who 826 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,280 Speaker 1: hasn't played since twenty sixteen be in nearly perfect shape. 827 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,280 Speaker 1: Why would he put himself through that if he didn't 828 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: actually want to play. So it's just I love jay Z. 829 00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: I respect him still. I respect everything he's done for 830 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: the community. I just disagree with him doing this particular 831 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: thing because I think ultimately the juice will not be 832 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: worth to squeeze, and we will find that out as 833 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: time goes on. Jamal, thank you so much for your 834 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,280 Speaker 1: time and for joining PM mood. You continue to inspire 835 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: me and so many other people in the media profession. 836 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: I'm just very grateful for your power, your bad assery, 837 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: your boldness, your black girl magic. Really genuinely appreciate you well. 838 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on. This is a great conversation 839 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: and I appreciate it you thinking of me, of course. 840 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: Of course, if you want to hear more from me, 841 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 1: check out my live daily political talk show, Woke a 842 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 1: f Daily at DNR Studios. You can subscribe now at 843 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: www dot DNR studios dot com. Slash Quoke