1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to works, 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: not come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: and I'm like Caroline. Something big happened last night afore 4 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: I watched The Craft for the first time. And you're 5 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: how old? I'm thirty and I watched The Craft for 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: the first time. Gosh darn at Caroline was raising a 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: very conservative home and movies with the cult themes were 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: not allow. What about slumber parties? They weren't allow. You know, 9 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: I went to slumber parties, But I never saw The Craft. 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: I just never saw it. I was obceased with it. 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: Tell me more because that's why that I loved that movie. 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,639 Speaker 1: I was equal parts like terrified and adoring of Perusa 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: Ball in that movie, like her use of dark lipstick. 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: I so admired. You can still try to pull it off, Caroline. 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: I was about to say pull it off, the decided 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: to add the try too, because it's a tough look. 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: It is a tough look, and I am very pale. 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: My skin tends to get a little ready, especially when 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed, and I feel like a dark, dark, almost 20 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: black red would just not look good on me, or 21 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: just make your lips pop. You know, I was so 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: surprised watching it that a movie made in nine six, 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: it still felt fresh to me. I mean, maybe it 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: was just like skeet Ulric's face just shining through on screen. 25 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it was their cool semi coordinated outfits. 26 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: Maybe it was the soundtrack, which I kind of now 27 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: I want to buy and yes on CD, just you know, 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: for nostalgia. Um, but it was really good. It's a 29 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: great movie. And then I realized though in preparing for 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: this episode, so not only was I like super excited 31 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: to maybe potentially chat about The Craft, but I started realizing, like, wait, 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: there are a lot of great which is that I 33 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: love in movies that I've seen over the course of 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: my life, Like which is the movie which is with 35 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: Angelica Houston. Yeah, that's the purpose of this entire podcast. 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: I know. Well I was. I just enjoyed my trip 37 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: down memory lane. So should we save some of your 38 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: favorite witches for later in the podcast? Sign? I know, 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: because I'm only asking because I could sit here and 40 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: talk along. Because also not as big of a thing, 41 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: but another thing that happened last night before I watched 42 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: The Craft for the first time, I watched teen which 43 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: for the first time and have not seen that. Well, 44 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: well here we go movie, I've seen, Buddy, you haven't 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: how the tables have turned, Caroline. They have literally what 46 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: slumber parties have you not been to? You know? So 47 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: it was either the Craft or wild Hearts can't be 48 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: broken now that I have seen so many times tragic 49 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: love story. We'll do another podcast episode on Versus in 50 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: swimming Pools. So, dear listeners, Halloween is coming up at 51 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: least at the time that we are recording this podcast, 52 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: and we got to talk about witches and nothing really 53 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: to do with the history of real live witches, but 54 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: witches especially on screen, because the more you start thinking 55 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: about the appeal of witches, I'm not talking about like evil, 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: witchy witches like the Wicked Witch of the West. I'm 57 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: talking about like witches in the craft, like your Angelica, 58 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: which in the witches that you love so much, Like 59 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: why do we as ladies love which is so much? 60 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: Because a lot of times which is are associated with evilness, ugliness, spinsterhood, 61 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: and yet there's this whole other, bigger group of witches 62 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: that are associated with cunning and power and fun. Well, 63 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: I think even the witches that are associated with evil 64 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: and ugliness and spinsterhood are still delivering a big old 65 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: middle finger to convention. But I mean, especially if we 66 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: are talking in terms of like pop culture and and 67 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: movie and TV representations. When you any time I feel like, 68 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: because Hollywood is not only sexist but agist, anytime you 69 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: have a woman over like thirty, Uh, that's like, oh 70 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: my god, how are we going to cast her? Uh? 71 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: And so yeah, the fact that a character could potentially 72 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: be older, she could maybe wear one of those like 73 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: fake witch noses and a fake witch wart, it's like, yeah, yeah, 74 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: screw you convention and beauty norms. So who was the 75 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: first witch you saw on screen? Caroline? I don't remember. 76 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, I have any hunches. I mean it 77 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: was I mean, speaking of the wicked Witch, it was 78 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: probably the Wizard of Oz. I'm guessing mine was the 79 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz too. Yeah, but it was it was 80 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: shortly thereafter. I mean, I know I saw the Wizard 81 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: of Oz for the first time. I was very very young, 82 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: but it wasn't too long after that I saw the 83 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: roll Doll movie interpretation of of Witches. Yeah, I gotta 84 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: tell you, I am obviously really catching up in terms 85 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: of pop culture, which is because like I said, growing up, 86 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: which is we're not something that we're welcome in my household. 87 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: And you know, my parents were doing and what they 88 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: thought was right. But I feel a little sad that 89 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: I'm not as as which knowledgeable as well you and 90 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: like all of my peers, like anyone of your generation. Yes, 91 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: it's fine, but it's it is really fascinating. Even even 92 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: I who have not seen all of the possible witch 93 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: movies their artists, e um, can understand this historic symbolism 94 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: that we do see reflected in a lot of our 95 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: most beloved witches on screen. Because what do witches represent? 96 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: I mean power, they really connote women's power, you have intuition, fertility, sisterhood, 97 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: spinsterhood even Yeah, and they're also defying that normal patriotic 98 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: normal patriotic they hate this country. They're all communists. Yeah, 99 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: not to mention, of course, they're defying the normal patriarchal 100 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: social order. And what I love, you know, talking about 101 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: power and the social order and everything. And I'm going 102 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: to continue sighting the movie Witches is that these women, 103 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: for instance, in that movie, all of these witches are 104 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: together at a convention at a hotel. And it's so 105 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: funny thinking back on that movie and realizing that the 106 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: way that strikes me now is like the way that's 107 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: so many business centric like women's organization conferences go. I mean, 108 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: they're not witches. So what do you mean by that? 109 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: Oh well, it's just it's like it's it's say, a 110 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: witchy version of networking. God, is what it feels like. 111 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: You've got all of these witches at a convention at 112 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: a hotel. They're having like their annual meeting, their netwitching. 113 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: Yeah that's so perfect. That's so perfect. Can we start 114 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: that LinkedIn spin off site net witching that witching? Well yeah, 115 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: and we need to actually have that in real life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 116 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm serious. We're gonna host it. Right, We've got so 117 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: many stuff on invertold you side businesses just popping up 118 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: left and right. We should really start to write them 119 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: down at some point. I do like it though, And 120 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: listeners will email us in like a few weeks later 121 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: and like remind us of bands or random products. So 122 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: we've talked about launching. Yeah, we still get emails about 123 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: the potential Sminty menstrel Cup Men's stroll cups, menstrel cup 124 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: Well back to witches though, from periods to witches. I 125 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: feel like that is a perfect segue or a book title, 126 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: from periods to witches. Um. Someone who wrote an entire 127 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: book about which is Catherine Howe, who wrote the Penguin 128 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: Book of which is put this Whole, which symbolism perfectly 129 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: in an interview with NPR where she said, what made 130 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: which is dangerous in the early modern period makes them enticing. 131 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: Now here's a case of a figure, a person, a 132 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: woman generally laying claim to power that doesn't belong to her, 133 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: that should belong only to God, or should belong only 134 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: to people in authority, and she's taking that power for herself. Yeah. 135 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: And the New Inquiry echoed the sentiment a little more poetically. 136 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: I would argue they sounded like they got drunk, they 137 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: maybe had too much red wine and wrote an ode 138 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: to which is uh? They said, in a male supremacist society, 139 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: female power must logically appear illogical, mysterious, intimate threatening, which 140 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: stands for all of those unnamable shadow acts of disappearance 141 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: and withdrawal, self cultivation and self medication that a leude 142 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: the social and sexual order. So which is I mean, 143 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: which is are a lot to put it very eloquently, Yeah, 144 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: wrapped up in that witch hat, You've got a whole 145 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: lot of messing with convention So Hollywood so called Season 146 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: of the Witch. Yeah, donovan reference any fans out there. 147 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: Uh makes so much sense because this is such a 148 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: rich character to play around with, and it's one that 149 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: has been really popular in the past four or five years, 150 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: especially with help from Harry Potter. We have her Maiani, 151 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: who pops up on every single listical about best most 152 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: favorite awesome witches in pop culture of all time. Well, 153 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: so does Maggie Smith's character, right, Yeah, Yeah, she's a 154 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: common one too. I'm gonna admit something, admit I have 155 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: never never read, nor have I watched any Harry Potter 156 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: Caroline are in box? Like just hear it from I 157 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: just heard the tippy typing of people being like, what 158 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: is wrong with you? And I don't I don't know. 159 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: I just let it pass me by as a social phenomenon. 160 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: Do you need to take a vacation so you can 161 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: read up Caroline. I'm shaking my head at you, conquer 162 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: only for the pronunciation of Caroline. Um well, I don't 163 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: know about any of that, but I do know that 164 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: Maggie Smith looks great in a witch hat. She does? 165 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: She does? I mean, I say, you know, uh, this 166 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: fall bonnets were supposed to be, you know, come into fashion. 167 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: It's not a true thing. That was a true thing, 168 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: and bonnets are not going to happen. But I would 169 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: be behind trying to make witch hats happen, you know, 170 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: could we get can we combine the slouchy beanie and 171 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: the witch hat? Absolutely? Caroline? Um, But back to television, okay, 172 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: sure again. So it's really funny to see how the 173 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: witch craze has been reported in entertainment media. UM. And 174 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, the vampire craze kind of gave way 175 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: to witches on TV and in the l A Times 176 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: Melissa Mayor's reports for network seeking female viewers and mean 177 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: girl heroines, which is offered the perfect double threat because 178 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: which is cast girls quite literally in control not only 179 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: of their lives but of entire worlds. So you have 180 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: witches appearing that you're in true blood the CW's the 181 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: Secret Circle and a wicked witch slash queen appearance and 182 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: once upon a time, so everyone's like, oh, my gosh, 183 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: which is here everywhere. We're having a witch moment, and 184 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: we were apparently still having a witch moment, according to 185 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: Mary McNamara over at the l A Times. Uh. She 186 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,599 Speaker 1: gives the examples of American horror story Coven, which is 187 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: apparently very controversial among people, depending on if you think 188 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: it's like the best thing ever or the worst thing ever. 189 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: So we'll talk about it, Caroline good, okay, Also the 190 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: Witches of East End, and which characters appearing on Sleepy Hollow, 191 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: the Originals, Supernatural and more. And if it sounds like 192 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: I'm reading off a lift, I am, because I haven't 193 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: watched any of these things. I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry. Well, 194 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: she I mean there were so many though that A. Yes, 195 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: it does make up a list, and McNamara declares the 196 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: year of the Witch. I mean, so, I mean arguably 197 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: we've already past peak witch. Oh, I don't know, you 198 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I mean, like, I agree, I think 199 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: that we're we're still really enamored with witches. Um. But 200 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: McNamara really got me thinking a lot about this longstanding 201 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: pop cultural symbolism, of which is because um, she tidally 202 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: sums up their appeal to television creators, saying and a quote, 203 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: and it's a long quote, but it's a good one, 204 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: which is are handy solution to other more pragmatic narrative problems. 205 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: They can be old and wise and still beautiful. There's 206 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: that ages in Caroline. They're allowed to commit acts of fury, 207 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,599 Speaker 1: sex and violence, still the hallmarks of important drama that 208 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: would be far less acceptable from a mortal female character. 209 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: And they often come in groups, which is how television 210 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: writers like women. And I'm now imagining Sex and the City, 211 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: Sex and the City recast as a coven. Were they 212 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: just a coven the whole time? Yeah, I mean that 213 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: just changes everything. It's like Garfield without dialogue, Garfield without John, 214 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's John without garth people, which is so depressing. 215 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: But no, I think that's such a fascinating, perfect quote 216 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: that hits all of it right on the head in 217 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: terms of, uh, allowing women characters to get away with 218 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: stuff that they wouldn't normally. I mean that's so it's 219 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily something I think about all the time, but like, yeah, 220 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: that's that's absolutely true. Imagine if you had just your 221 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: run of the mill average late on television who was 222 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: being in some way sort of evil or doing something 223 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: perceived as evil, we wouldn't have any sympathy for her, 224 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: whereas if she's a witch, it's like, oh, well, it 225 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: makes sense, I love this, Let her do more of 226 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: it well and interesting too to think about the whole 227 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: age beauty thing that we often see come up with witches, 228 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: where it's so rare to see a woman portrayed as 229 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: hauntingly beautiful and mesmerizing if she is over a certain age, right, 230 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: But that's often so part like a crux of these older, 231 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: more evil witches. Evil witches. You know, you can't be 232 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: a good witch necessarily and be old and beautiful. But 233 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: if you're both, then you're probably more evil. I don't 234 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: know from my from my casual which observations that's anecdotal. Well, 235 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: I mean, but that's that's like such a plot device anyway. 236 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you mentioned how vampires gave way to witches 237 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: in terms of pop culture craze. Sort of combining these 238 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: ideas is the movie adaptation of one of Anne Rice's novels. 239 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: I can't remember what the title is now, but it's 240 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: the one where Aaliyah is starring as the ancient vampire 241 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: queen and how gorgeous she is, and she's so beautiful, 242 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: and her beauty is this big thing. And she's also 243 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: very young and gorgeous and all of that stuff to 244 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: to super emphasize how beautiful she is. But being that 245 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: she's a vampire queen, she's also a bajillion years old, 246 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: and it's that same thing. It's like, oh, well, here's 247 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: a woman of a of a significant age, but oh 248 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: it's it's Aaliyah. Don't worry, she's still real pretty well. 249 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: And speaking of the vampire thing too, something it might 250 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: have been McNamara uh and some other people have pointed out, 251 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: is how interesting it is that which is followed up 252 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: on the heels of the vampire craze, because vampire lore 253 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: sprang out of Victorian panic over female sexuality essentially, and 254 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: so to then have these powerful, often sexual, self possessed 255 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: women and follow in the wake of the vampire craze 256 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: might say something too, including that I might be reading 257 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: a lot into television. Well, no, I mean also uh, 258 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: pop culturally speaking, um, which is this entire episode? Um. 259 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: More recently, all the representations of vampires for the most 260 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: part have been dudes, like look at Twilight, you know, 261 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: like the handsome, shiny vampire man boy. But now you 262 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: were getting more and more witches and they're they're all handsome, 263 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: handsome women. Handsome some handsome women, which very much a 264 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: side note. I like the adjective handsome for women. I 265 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: say we bring it back, Katherine Hepburn, What a handsome woman. 266 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to offer you a transition now, Kristen. Yes, 267 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: one handsome woman that we can talk about is one 268 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Montgomery. Oh, she of bo witch fame indeed. Okay, 269 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: So here's the thing listeners to keep in mind as 270 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about all of this symbolism of witches, and 271 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to women's power and sexual agency. 272 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: When we look at old school witches in pop culture, 273 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: a lot of times the name of the game is 274 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: to repress your witchiness in order to better fit into 275 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: society's little boxes, or to use your powers, however expressed 276 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: or repressed, to serve the men in your life. So again, 277 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: going back to Mary McNamara's l a Times piece, she 278 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 1: notes the social symbolism of which is on TV starting 279 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: with Samantha Stevens played by no twitching Elizabeth Montgomery on 280 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: but which which premiered in nineteen sixty four, notably the 281 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: same year that the feminine mystique hit bookshelves. Yeah, so, 282 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: at the same time that Betty for Danna is saying 283 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: that housewives are afraid of asking the question that's bouncing 284 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: around in their brains, of the question that has no name, Caroline, 285 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: this all, Samantha the Witch is emphatically saying, yes, this 286 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: is all, and it's everything. She her entire happiness is 287 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: wrapped up in her devotion to Darren and Judy. D 288 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: O'Reilly wrote an entire book about this so called Bewitched 289 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: effect and the bewitched archetype. The book is Bewitched Again, 290 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: Supernaturally Powerful Women on Television to two thousand eleven, and 291 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: she really put a lot of these pieces together. It 292 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: was really interesting reading so deeply into Bewitched because I 293 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: had never before felt angry feelings about Bewitched. I'd really 294 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: never felt feelings about Bewitched at all, and then it 295 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: made you upset. It did. Yeah, it got my panties 296 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: a little bit. In a twist, I've got to tell you, well, 297 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: she quotes Samantha Stevens, which is obviously Elizabeth Montgomery's character 298 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: in which as saying I happened to think cooking on 299 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: the stove is more fun than using witchcraft lies Steven's 300 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: you know that's a lie. Um, what would Indra say 301 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: to that? You know? She has a quotes TV Guide 302 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: in a profile of Elizabeth Montgomery and her husband Bill Asher, 303 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: who plays Darren, saying that this character of Samantha would 304 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: rather scrub the floor on her hands and knees for 305 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: the man she loves. It is emotional satisfaction she craves. 306 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: And I just I'm like, I'm just imagining, like being 307 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: in a real, like actual adult couple where people have 308 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: to clean up after each other and like take care 309 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: of a home together, And I'm like, I would not 310 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: rather scrub the floor on my hands and knees as 311 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: a way to show love. I'd rather use my freaking witchcraft. 312 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: Speak for yourself. We all know you love to load 313 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: the dishwasher, and honestly I do too. I read do 314 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: the way that my boyfriend does it. But here's the thing. 315 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: We might be jumping ahead of ourselves a tiny bit 316 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: for listeners who aren't familiar with the Bewitched premise, Let's 317 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: let him know what's going on here. Because it's not 318 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: just the thing of Samantha Stevens is a nineteen fifties 319 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: housewife or should I say nineteen sixties housewife and also 320 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: a witch. I mean the in the pilot, we have 321 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: her and Darren get married, and on the wedding night 322 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: she finally reveals that she's a witch, and he flips 323 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: out and he's like, the only way I'm going to 324 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: stay married to you is if you keep your witchcraft 325 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: in check. I didn't marry a witch. I married a 326 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: wife and also learn how to do all of the 327 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: domestic goddess stuff. Yeah, and also go to dinner I 328 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: think every Friday. It is at his mother's house. So 329 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: he has his whole list of requirements for her. And 330 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: she is like, Okay, I think you're I mean, your 331 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: jaw is just so square. I must I must relent. 332 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: I don't mind. But that whole premise was perfectly normal 333 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: for the audience back then. Yeah, I mean, keep in mind. 334 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: In that same TV Guide article that I mentioned, and 335 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: it was in n there was one was he a 336 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: TV executive. He was someone who was commenting on this show, 337 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: and he said, a witch who's interested in being a 338 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: housewife to an American male is interesting. If she just 339 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: went around being a witch, nobody would care. Basically that 340 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: Darren is uh Samantha's motivation for doing anything anything, And 341 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: it's so fascinating to see how all of the profiles 342 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Montgomery at the time emphasized her devotion to 343 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: her husband, who was also a producer on the show, 344 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: and so they kind of tried to like cast them 345 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: publicity wise as the real life the Witched couple. Oh, 346 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: but don't worry. She loves doing chores. She really loves 347 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: doing chores, and she never wants to go do press 348 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: and have to travel without him. So even though she 349 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: might play this witch, calm down, She's actually just a 350 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: wife who at one point they were talking about how 351 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: she still managed to get up before him and make 352 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: him breakfast in bed with like orange juice and coffee. 353 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: Um every morning, because because Bill breakfasts in bed. Kristen 354 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: lucky Bill I would loved it. Well, my boyfriend does 355 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: actually cook breakfast. Um, I am I'm a lucky girl. 356 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: You're a Bill. You're a lucky Bill. I am Bill, 357 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: I am Bill. We're all bill um hashtag We're all 358 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: bill um. But it was just one more supernatural sitcoms 359 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: of that era, which I think is interesting also in context. 360 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: You've got I dream of Genie, my living doll, which 361 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: that's a robot, my mother, the car that's a that's 362 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: a car, the Flying Nun, the Adams Family. Um, these 363 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: shows are all equating the bizarre, the alien, the magical 364 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: with the feminine. But like I mentioned earlier, all of 365 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: these women in these shows have these fantastic extra powers 366 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: that tended to just be used for the benefit of 367 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: the men in their lives. Basically, I mean, especially if 368 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: you look at my living doll, which is like it's 369 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: a robot for the guy, I feel like that could 370 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: go a really negative direction. And I dream of Genie. 371 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: She's like so submissive, she just and and she's adorable. 372 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: And yes, it's a cute show and it's adorable anthers, 373 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: but it's such like a capsule of its time of like, 374 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: I am a magical, empowered woman, but I'm going to 375 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: set that aside to do whatever i can to empower 376 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: you man in my life. And also Caroline, I know 377 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: Jennie Barbara Eden was not allowed to show her belly 378 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: button on television. Oh that's right. She was the first 379 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. Yeah, well Taylor Swift is allowed to obviously, 380 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: she just won't. She won't. Um. But if we look 381 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: at the witch it is interesting, as O'Reilly notes in 382 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: her book of how Samantha's witchcraft problematizes the household environment. 383 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: So she asserts that this witchcraft is symbolizing womanly rebellion. 384 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: And you do see this like market contrast and how 385 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: conventionally attract Jove, Samantha is versus and Dora, who is 386 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: her unmarried, wild red haired mother who's just flitting about 387 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: and hates the fact that Samantha is so devoted to Darren. Yeah, 388 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: I think hashtag we're all in Dora. Yes, it's not 389 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: that you Okay, wait before you write me a letter. 390 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: It's not that we shouldn't be devoted to our loved ones, 391 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: our partners. I'm just saying we could all use a 392 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: little bit more eyeshadow. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. So, Yeah, 393 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: some do see Bewitched as a landmark for women because 394 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: of its break from traditional form and for Samantha's ability 395 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: to wield some power over her household. But it's interesting 396 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: that you can literally use the same evidence from the 397 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: show to argue that it's empowering versus it's disempowering. So 398 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: you've got things like the idea that Darren in in 399 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: the figures of his wife and his mother in law 400 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: and and also Samantha's aunts, that he's confronting this like 401 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,479 Speaker 1: powerful magical matriarchy and and that is amazing and empowering. Um, 402 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,719 Speaker 1: you've got the idea that being a housewife, being Darren's 403 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: wife and giving up or promising to give up her 404 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: witchcraft was her choice, and that that's empowering that she 405 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: chose that life over another. But the thing is, her 406 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: power still is all for the sake of Darren and housework. 407 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: So she promises him right that she's not going to 408 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: use it, and then when he's away at work, she's like, well, 409 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: I'll just use a spell here to to do the 410 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: dishes and have the dishes be clean. And then when 411 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: Darren is like struggling at work, she's like, well, I'll 412 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: just use a spell to like help him along. But 413 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: the thing is, like you said, her magic always ends 414 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: up like causing wacky hijinks to happen, to ensue and 415 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: causes problems. So for that reason, O'Reilly is less convinced 416 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: that she that Samantha is as empowered of a character 417 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: as we really really really want her to be. Yeah, 418 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: using that same evidence of choosing housewifery. Um, whereas some 419 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: people would say, hey, the choice is empowering, some other 420 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: people would argue, well, she chose the safe, non magical option, 421 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: but really fascinating nonetheless, to just consider it in that 422 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: cultural context, because it does seem to present just a 423 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: snapshot of like, of things that were happening beyond the 424 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 1: set and outside of of people's homes. As times we're 425 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: starting to change for women. And speaking of that, um, 426 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: O'Reilly notes how in the seventies, these more supernatural women 427 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: like say I dream of Genie or be Whiched give 428 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: way to super heroin so you have Wonder Woman and 429 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: the Bionic Woman, for instance, and then in the eighties 430 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,959 Speaker 1: and nineties you have superpowered women focused on quote proving 431 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: themselves to male authority figures and using their powers to 432 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: serve others and fearing repercussions if their powers are revealed. 433 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: And this is a continual theme of hitting up against 434 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: male authority figures and of the fear of being mothered 435 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: essentially by virtue of your power being put on public display. Yeah. 436 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: She sites shows like Charmed, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and Buffy. 437 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: She says they presented a veneer of empowerment while facing 438 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: constraint after constraint. And I wasn't really into Sabrina the 439 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: Teenage which I was super into Buffy. I watched Charmed 440 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: in the beginning, and I just love to think of 441 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 1: Shannon Doherty as a witch. I just think that that 442 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: that was perfectly cast. She's got a witchy face. Well, yeah, 443 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: and she's got a witchy reputation. It's got a witchy reputation. 444 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: I would take that as a compliment. I would not 445 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: mean it otherwise. Um. And it is in this era 446 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: that these pop cultural whitches are often considered freaks and 447 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: are still fighting against domestic related constraints. Not terribly removed 448 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: from Samantha Stevens, although Buffy probably far more removed, but 449 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: you still have you know, like Sabrina having to deal 450 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: with things at school and then her house, and a 451 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: lot of times like the girls in Charmed are like 452 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: at their house right, and like dealing with dealing with 453 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: life is three sisters who are witches and handsome magical men. 454 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: Oh man, I love a handsome, magical man. And this 455 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: was something too that jumped out to McNamara and writing 456 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: about pop culture's love of witches in the l A Times, 457 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: because she says that these what she calls supernaturally powerful 458 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: women are usually under watch by mail authority figures and 459 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: are usually compelled to use their power in service of 460 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: other people rather than their self. Whereas she writes and 461 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: start contrast, supernaturally powerful male character is found on programs 462 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: such as small Ville and The Dead Zone do not 463 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: experience these same constraints. So it's like, even when we're 464 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: which is, or we're supernaturally powered in some kind of way, 465 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: we're still women. Yeah. And one of the examples that 466 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: she cites, and speaking of Buffy, is Buffy's relationship not 467 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: a very good relationship with her high school principle, who 468 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: expels there because he thinks that she killed another slayer 469 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: when in fact that slayer was killed by a vampire. 470 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: Take your breath, um, But yeah, and so there's that 471 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: like male authority, male power uh up again butting up 472 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: against like sort of a more innocent, spunky but powerful 473 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: young girl. So basically, which is are us hashtag, hashtag. 474 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: We have so many hashtags from this episodo, which is 475 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: our us. That would be a great store, that would 476 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: be a good another side business for us, Caroline. The 477 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: empire continues to grow. Um. But here's the thing, it 478 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: is usually very limited for trail of who us is. 479 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: If we if we look at most of our pop 480 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: cultural witches, they're typically white, middle class, conventionally attractive, straight, 481 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: and able bodied. But I mean we would argue that 482 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: maybe it has to be this way in order for 483 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: Hollywood to sign off on it. I mean, if they're 484 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: gonna build a whole franchise around it, then yeah, you've 485 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: got to make them um attractive in this way because 486 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: witch crones, those evil, old warty crones gonnaly be evil, 487 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: and the prettiness mollifies the transgressive aspects of practicing witchcraft. 488 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: So basically, it's like our to bring the teenage witch 489 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: were an unfortunate looking girl, would she have been is 490 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: popular or did we need her to look kind of 491 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: cute in order for us to be like, okay, cool 492 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: that we like that combination of like you've got a 493 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: cute face and you can also be witchy. It helps 494 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: that she was Clarissa explains at all mean that's true. Yeah, well, 495 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: I mean you've got the example also, though, of Melissandra 496 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: on Game of Thrones, who is like exceedingly beautiful and always, 497 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: even though it's so cold outside and she's always in 498 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: the snow, she's wearing dresses that are cut down to 499 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: a belly button. Alessandra, come on, I know your hair 500 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: doesn't keep you that warm. Put on a shirt. Do 501 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: you want a hoodie? Cut? I just always want to 502 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: give her a hoodie. Well, Caroline, you clearly don't know 503 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: that which blood is much hotter than human blood. She 504 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: is always setting people on fire. Uh so that's the thing. 505 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: But I mean a counter example would be true bloods 506 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: Black male, which Lafayette very true. Yeah, I mean, I 507 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: think there have been a few more examples of diversifying, 508 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: Which is probably most prominently of late would be American 509 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:55,719 Speaker 1: horror story Coven, which presented age wise and ethnicity wise, 510 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: a far more diverse coven than we've probably ever seen 511 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: on network television. But a lot of people were pretty 512 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 1: disappointed with it in terms of how Ryan Murphy I mean, 513 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: and this is something that um, Ryan Murphy I think 514 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: just kind of tends to do with a lot of 515 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: his shows, and yes, I have been watching Scream Queens 516 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: is focusing the plot more around unquote cat fighting among 517 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: the witches and also some kind of straight up racist 518 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: e portrayals of the black witches that left a lot 519 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: of people scratching their heads. Um, So a lot of 520 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: people felt disempowered by Covin. Yeah. I talked to a 521 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: Holly it's stuck in this in history class about this 522 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: because she was like, what are you guys doing this 523 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: week time? I'm like, witches? Oh my god, you have 524 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: to watch American horror Story, Kevin. And what did she 525 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: think about? She freaking loved it. Really, She strongly disagrees 526 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: with the idea that a all they're doing is portraying 527 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: these women of catfighting and infighting and be that it's 528 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: disempowered ring at all. Granted, I mean she's a super 529 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: fan and all that stuff, Like, I've never seen it. 530 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: All I know is that I Kristen, and I read 531 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: this article um that was describing how disappointing it was 532 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: for people who wanted it to have been so much 533 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: more for for showing both powerful and empowered women working 534 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: together and not just focused on men or relationships or 535 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: marriage and babies or anything like that. Um, and how 536 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: it fell short in a lot of people's minds. Well, 537 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: I mean that was one article though. Yeah then, but 538 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: so what though did Holly like about it, aside from 539 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: like disagreeing with what critics had to say. Oh, I 540 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: mean she she completely on the opposite end of it, 541 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: thought it was empowering, and she thought it was She 542 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: just loves witchy things and thought that these women were incredible, 543 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: and that Jessica Lang and Angela Bassett were incredible. She 544 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: loved the relationships that these women had and that they 545 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: had power. She she loves Kathy Bates and thought Kathy 546 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: Bates was great. Although several places that we looked at 547 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: had Kathy it's like the most problematic, but I don't know, 548 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. Maybe, well it could also be 549 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: an example of one of those things where it's like 550 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: everything you like will ultimately be problematic. Yeah, that that 551 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: is the true statement always, And maybe we should have 552 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: Holly back on just to talk about Kevin. Doesn't matter 553 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: if Halloween has long passed, Hollyween. Hollyween, So, I mean, nevertheless, 554 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: any kind of problematic portrayals aside and I only say 555 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: problematic in that goofy voice, because yes, it has become 556 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: a word that has bandied about far too much and 557 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of losing its meaning. But um, all of 558 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: these witches that we're talking about still often make for 559 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: a vast majority of us ultra satisfying female characters. We 560 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: love to see witches. So who are our favorites? Because 561 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: one of my one of one thing that delighted me 562 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: the most to discover and researching for this episode is 563 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: just how many best of there are. It's like, if 564 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: you have a blog, if you have a lady site 565 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: of some sort, you've gotta have some kind of roundup 566 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: of your favorite witches. Well, I think it's an excellent 567 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: convergence of things we've talked about before in terms of 568 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: like fandom and girls fandom in particular, and the fact 569 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: that you've got these characters who are female and who 570 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: are empowered to some degree, and so it makes sense 571 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: to me that you would have a bunch of like 572 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: top ten, top twenty, top a million, which characters on 573 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: television and movies. Well, and one thing that didn't strike 574 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: me until Kelly Busman over at Jezebel pointed out was 575 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: that if you have a show or a movie about witches, 576 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: it probably automatically passes the Bechdel tests because you have 577 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: a group of women with names talking to each other 578 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: and probably not about dudes all the time. Not about 579 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: dudes all the time. Although you know, one of my favorite, favorite, favorite, 580 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: favorite favorite which movies is hocus Pocus, and I would 581 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: have to go back and see for sure, because the 582 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: whole thing is throughout that whole movie they're so trying 583 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: to uh, they're trying to destroy Thackeray Banks, who is 584 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: a little boy who then turns into a cat. Have 585 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,439 Speaker 1: you seen have you seen hocus Pocus? Oh god, it's 586 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 1: so good. We should totally. I don't know if anyone 587 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: would tune in for like a two hour periscope, but 588 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,959 Speaker 1: we should totally periscope was watching that or at least 589 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: live tweeted it is my favorite. But yeah, they are 590 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: very concerned with with killing Sachery Banks and so it's 591 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: a fabulous movie. But they do talk about a boy 592 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 1: quite a bit. Do they have a conversation just about 593 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: the cat? Maybe we just refer to it as the cat. 594 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: Maybe that could count. Let's do that. Let's have an 595 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: event where we live tweet checking to see if hocus 596 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: Pocus passes the Bechdel test. Hello, I'm sure it does 597 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 1: at some point. That's that's the stuff that the Internet 598 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: is made of, Caroline, Yeah, exactly. I mean early on 599 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: in the movie. I think they're just like casting spells 600 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: and concerned with each other's yes, having makeover montages. I 601 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: wouldn't know. That's another movie. Um So, if we were 602 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: to amass our witch squad hashtag witch squad goals, who 603 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: would be in it? Well, for sure, I would say 604 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: the Sanders and sisters from hocus Pocus. I would also 605 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 1: say the two Ants and the two Nieces from Practical Magic, 606 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: which is another one of my favorite favorite movies, Andrew 607 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: Bullock classic. Well, also Stevie Nicks killing it on the soundtrack, 608 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: because you know she her whole witchy woman thing, Rannon, 609 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: that's all that stuff, keep going. No, no, no, no, 610 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,919 Speaker 1: I will not. I'd also want um Nancy Downs from 611 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: The Craft, which is for as a box character, just 612 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: to like be my muscle. But also we can't leave 613 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: out Robin Tuney from that movie. She played Sarah because 614 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: she's like the good witch. Yeah. I liked I liked 615 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: her a lot Nancy Downs. I'm sorry, I don't think 616 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: that Nancy could be part of my squad because her 617 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: power might get out of control and I would have 618 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: to bind her, and then she find out that I 619 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,879 Speaker 1: bound her, and then we'd have a fight. Now I'm 620 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: just saying we would just continually bind her finding herself 621 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: when we hang out, Nancy, would you put it out 622 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: and then we bind her? Let's find Nancy again just 623 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: getting out of control? Um? What about what about her Miami? 624 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: Would you want her mini there or would she call 625 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: too many of the shots? Oh? I don't know. I 626 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 1: haven't have I have no cultural reference for Harry Potter, 627 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: but I mean I know a lot of people love 628 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,760 Speaker 1: her Moony and and her real life equivalent, and Watson 629 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 1: is like all hashtag key for she, So I mean 630 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: she can come alounch Emma Watson, this is your open 631 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: invitation to join stuff. One never told you Switch Squad 632 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: are coming. Someone let her press person know. Um, you 633 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: know who I would not invite in my Witch squad 634 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: having just seen it. And I haven't been able to 635 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: get this off my chest yet this episode. Okay, Louise 636 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,879 Speaker 1: Miller played by Robin Lively of Teen Witch because Teen Witch. 637 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: While it does have some of the best rap scenes 638 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: ever put on film, um I did not support the 639 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: premise of that movie where she learns that she's a 640 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: witch and she uses her witch power to make this 641 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: handsome ll Bean catalog looking guy fall in love with her, 642 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: and it suggests in the film through some very close up, 643 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: very tongue heavy French kissing in a like random barn 644 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: or something that they run across, that they have sex 645 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 1: and she's like, oh no, what am I gonna do? 646 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,399 Speaker 1: But the moral of the story is that he fell 647 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: in love with her for real z s and she 648 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: doesn't need to be a witch anymore because now her 649 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: hair is big and the popular guy still likes her 650 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: even though they've had sex, and it was just awful. 651 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: So it's just an when is it? When was it made? 652 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 1: I am guessing in like the late eighties early nineties, 653 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: so it's like an eighties update of Bewitched, sort of 654 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: like she's giving up her power for a dude. Yeah. Yeah, 655 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: um I was surprised at how how upset I was 656 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: at the end the credit started rolling and I was like, 657 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: is is it? This can't be it? Well, I would 658 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,439 Speaker 1: also want to invite. Speaking of of the movie, which 659 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: is starring Angelica Houston, I would also I would not 660 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: invite her because she's evil, but I would invite the 661 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: main character boys aunt, who's the good witch. She's literally 662 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: dressed in white and she's blonde, compared to Angelica Houston, 663 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: who's dresed in black and has black hair. Um, and 664 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: this woman is like super Oh no, it's not his aunt. 665 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: His aunt takes into the conference. It's the white witch 666 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: at the end who comes and turns him from a 667 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: mouse back into a boy. I am sorry, listeners, but 668 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: that woman, I think she drives a convertible. I would 669 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: invite her. Well, this sounds like a pretty solid witch 670 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 1: squad so far, but I'm sure that listeners have more 671 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: suggestions for our which squad? Who else should we invite? Oh, 672 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: they'll probably say Willow from Buffy. Yeah, I would say, well, 673 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 1: you don't want evil Willow as long as it's good Willow, 674 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: have her come on. I mean also to Willow. Talk 675 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,760 Speaker 1: about some TV history, one of the first positive portrayals 676 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: of a lesbian couple on television. We gotta do a 677 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: Buffy to the Vampire Slayer episode at some point. Let's 678 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: get back and rewatch all of it. Let's watch some 679 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: hocus Pocus, Let's watch some Buffy. Let's well, we have 680 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: to quit our day jobs to do this, but I 681 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: don't know, it's just tell working. Oh so I've been 682 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: Tella working wrong. Yes, yes, listeners, don't email our bosses. Well, 683 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: send us all of your witchy suggestions in any theories 684 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: as to why whiches are so enduring? Was there anything 685 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: that we missed in this which conversation? Because there really 686 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: are so many which is on film, big screen, small 687 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: screen to choose from, that we couldn't possibly mention them all, 688 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: including one last one Carol Mine, a movie that I 689 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: want to go back and watch. Is I Married a 690 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: Witch starring Veronica Lake, who was probably the most dazzling 691 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: witch because that hair is perfection. Yeah, So with that, 692 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: send us your witchy emails. Mom Stuff at house stuffwork 693 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. You can also tweet 694 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: us hashtag we are all in Dora at mom stuff 695 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple 696 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now. I have 697 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: a letter here from Beth in response to our ath 698 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: Leisure episode. She says, I love the show. I look 699 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: forward to these bi weekly forays and feminist topics. I 700 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: just listen near ath leisure episode and I felt that 701 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: I had to write in. You mentioned that the rise 702 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: of ath leisure has led to women not dressing for 703 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: a male gaze, but I have found the opposite to 704 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: be true as a woman who comes from a religious background. 705 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 1: Too many times have I heard about the sin of 706 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: the yoga pant, and I appreciate that you use the 707 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: Stacy London singular pant. She says, These comments, made mostly 708 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: by men, point to how yoga pants help accentuate a 709 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: woman's curves, driving men to a lusty distraction. Very rarely, though, 710 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: is the discussion balance saying that while female clothing maybe 711 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 1: enticing to the male gaze, it's ultimately the man's responsibility 712 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: for how he responds. Instead, it quickly devolves into slut shaming, 713 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: making women feel guilty for wearing almost any article of 714 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: clothing that they find comfortable and or attractive, And with 715 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: fashions changing, modesty is a constantly moving target that unfortunately 716 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: seems to be predominantly from a male point of view. 717 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: As a feminist within this conservative community, I can tell 718 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: you it really steams my beings to feel subjected to 719 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: these arbitrary rules. So while I've been trying to open 720 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: up communications on what modesty is within my circle of influence, 721 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 1: I also have been buying the most comfortable and cute 722 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: luggings and yoga pants that I can find. I'll admit 723 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,799 Speaker 1: that some days when I done them, I can still 724 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: feel a twinge of guilt or shame. But I try 725 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: to shrug that off and walk through my life with 726 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: my head held i and my stomach comfortably supported by elastic. 727 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,439 Speaker 1: Thanks again for such a great podcast. I always found 728 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 1: the topics insightful and have many great discussions with friends 729 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: that have started with the phrase. So I was listening 730 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: to this feminist podcast today. Well, thank you, Beth. Loved 731 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,439 Speaker 1: your letter. Well, I've got a letter here from Jen, 732 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: also about our at Leisure episode, and she writes, I 733 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: had to laugh because as I'm writing this and at 734 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: work in a full writing habit breaches writing socks, belt 735 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 1: tucked in shirt and vest, boots and chaps are in 736 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: the car to avoid tracking dirt everywhere. Writing clothes probably 737 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,879 Speaker 1: aren't what you were thinking about when you were making 738 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: this podcast, but this is beginning to be more common 739 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: among equestrians. The clothes we buy for writing tend to 740 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: be fairly expensive as well as fashionable and flexible. The 741 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 1: breaches I'm wearing now are literally the most comfortable pants 742 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: I've ever owned, which makes sense if they need to 743 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: flex and move with you as you move on the horse. 744 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,720 Speaker 1: I'm wearing these today because I plan on going writing 745 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 1: right after work, but there's definitely a status symbol of 746 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: wearing writing clothes in public. Not to be snobby, but 747 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: there's something satisfying about wearing actual equestrian apparel while everyone 748 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 1: around you is wearing equestrian inspired accessories that would fall 749 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: apart the minute you mounted a horse. It's just the 750 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: little thing that makes me smile. Anyway, I love the show. 751 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: Please give the episodes coming. They make my work day 752 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: fly by, and your letters help our work day fly by. 753 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: And you can send them to mom Stuff at how 754 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com and for links to all of 755 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,320 Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 756 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one with links to our sources 757 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: so you can read more about all that symbolism you 758 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: never knew existed and bewitched. Head on over to Stuff 759 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 1: Mom Never told You dot Com for moral thiss and 760 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff works dot 761 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: Com