1 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: Death by water intoxication is one thing, but having it 2 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: forced down your throat by your parents at age eleven 3 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: till you die is another thing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, 4 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: you know you can't be in the crime business for 5 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: long before you have to deal with child abuse. The 6 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: child abuse cases that I prosecuted for ten years in 7 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: Inner City Atlanta are still with me to this day. 8 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: I remember every one of them. But you know what, 9 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: it takes a lot to surprise me now, but this 10 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: case has I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank 11 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: you for being with us. Let's start with a listen 12 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: to our friends at Fox twenty one News. On March eleventh, 13 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: Angela Tutkin and her husband Matthew's lives changed forever. No 14 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: part should ever have to bury their child. The Opasso 15 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Office says Zachary's father, Ryan Savin, and his 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: stepmother Tara Savin, are accused of making the eleven year 17 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: old drink sixty four ounces of water a day due 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: to a bed wedding issue. According to court documents, on 19 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: March tenth, he got in trouble for not drinking enough 20 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: water and was told to drink more ultimately leading to 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: Zachary's death, which the Opasso County Corner says was from 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: forced water intoxication, meaning water poisoning from drinking too much. 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: I can't even begin to express the amount of pain myself, 24 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: my wife, and our children feel at the loss of Zachary. 25 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: According to a steady done by Pediatrics dot Org, water 26 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: intoxication is a rare occurrence, especially resulting in death in children. 27 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: I've never really heard of it. I guess I maybe 28 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: read a story of it here and there, but didn't 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: put much stock in it. I'm just a child lawyer, okay, 30 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 1: But to force a child to drink that much water 31 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: to solve a bed wedding issue seems to me. Bass 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: Ackwards again, I'm certainly not a shrink or a doctor 33 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: an MD who we have with us today, but it 34 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: seems to me this is more of a punishment because 35 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: drinking sixty four ounces of water is certainly not going 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: to cure bedwetting. So what is this all about? Well, 37 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: first of all, Eve this, if these allegations are true, 38 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: these two need to burn in hell because rotting in 39 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: hell would take too long with me an all star panel. 40 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: First of all, Kathleen Murphy North Caroline up family lawyer. 41 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: She's seen it all. She's at NC Domestic Law dot com. 42 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: Renowned psychologists joining us from New York. Karen Start doctor 43 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: free in Hesse, physician and child safety expert, founder of 44 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: pettymom dot Com. Lauren Sharf joining us Fox twenty one 45 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: in Colorado, Springs news reporter and death investigator, Professor forensics 46 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet 47 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan, you know, I want to 48 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: just start off with you, Joe Scott. You're sending your baby, 49 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: he's a baby to me away to the military today. 50 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: My son and daughter are twelve. I feel like your 51 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: son is still eleven years old. This little boy, this victim, Zachary, 52 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: is one year younger than the twins. Eleven years old. 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, just off the top, why why would you 54 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: do this to your son? It's statistic, Nancy, It's absolutely statistical. 55 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: Other words in mine, but go ahead, yeah, how did 56 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: too including warning a few moments in a room with 57 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: an individual that would do this, because this is nothing 58 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: more than sadistic torture. And you know, water has been 59 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: used for millennial to use as a method of torture. 60 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: It's something that we have copious amounts of and something 61 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: anybody can get access to. And the fact that they 62 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: would do this to this poor child who they have 63 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: been given charge over in this world to watch after, 64 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: to take care of the horror that this kid went through. 65 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: Water intoxication itself is absolutely brutal, and we're going to 66 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: explore that a little bit because it is the most 67 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: hideous type of death you can imagine. I want to 68 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: go first to Laurence Sharf foxt anyone in Colorado Springs 69 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: Knees reporter. I understand that a petition file with juvenile 70 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: court offers some horrible details about this little boy's abuse accusations. 71 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: What can you tell me? Yeah, so the father said 72 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: and told police that he kicked the eleven year old 73 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: a few times when he would throw a fit. And 74 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: then also the stepmother explained that he would throw fits 75 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: when he was supposed to be doing physical therapy and 76 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: he would just throw himself on the floor, and that 77 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: again that they were just giving him water when they 78 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: were actually eating dinner and would not allow him to 79 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 1: come and eat dinner unless he finished drinking enough water. 80 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: I don't understand that. And another thing following up with 81 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: Laurence shar Fox twenty one, throwing fits over a physical therapy. 82 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: You mean, what do you mean by physical therapy? I 83 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: guess he used to do exercises which were given to 84 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: him by a physical therapist, and when he would get dramatic, 85 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: he would supposedly throw tantrum. Tantrum's about doing the exercises, 86 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: and he would The stepmother told police that he would 87 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: cry and say he couldn't do them and throw himself 88 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: on the floor. Huh. You know what, I don't believe that. 89 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: I know that's coming from the mother. The stepmother I believe, 90 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: who was part of forcing the child to drink until 91 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: he died, an eleven year old little boy. So you 92 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: know what, I'm taking everything she says with a box 93 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: of salt. If they would force him to drink sixty 94 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: four ounces of water before he could come to the 95 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: dinner table because he went the bed, wow, you know 96 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: what to you, Karen start bedwetting is a classic sign 97 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: at this age, age eleven, a classic sign of child abuse. 98 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: I've never had a single child molestation case or abuse 99 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: case where the child did not wet the bed fill 100 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: me in and put it in a nutshell in words 101 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: I can understand, Karen start okay. Dead wedding is a 102 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: classic sign of the only way that a child can 103 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: express it. It's an unconscious thing that happens when a 104 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: child is angry. When you when I'm reading this, it 105 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: says that he hit some kind of a physical condition. Yeah, 106 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: he's being kicked and beaten by his stepmother and father 107 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: that physical condition. Go ahead, Well, I have to say 108 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: this is not that always. I don't want Joe Scott 109 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: and particularly takes a strong way. But father's in the military. 110 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: He understands that this is excessive punishment. And so we 111 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: have adults here who do have unrealistic expectations for an 112 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: eleven year old on what he's capable of. Has angle men, 113 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: terrible angler management issues, and they really do not know 114 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: the proper way to raise a child or a deal 115 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: with a child who's having a champrum. You know, you're 116 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: kind of making it sound like they don't know how 117 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: to raise a child, that somehow they are miseducated. That 118 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: is bs. That's a technical legal term, because everyone innately 119 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: knows not to kick a child on the floor. An 120 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: adult not to force feed a child water until the 121 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: child dies for Pete's sake, to wonder in that case, Nancy, 122 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: whether they in fact had step had suffered sexual, sexual 123 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: or emotional abuse themselves. Are you talking about the parents 124 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: that produced Are you seriously talking about the Okay, you 125 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: know what, don't care, don't care what they went through? 126 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: All right, I'm sorry if it did happen. There's no suggestion, 127 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: not even a sent you need to cut her mike, 128 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: because I don't want to hear what may have happened 129 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: to the parents in their childhood. There's no evidence to 130 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: suggest that at all. I care about. This child is dead. 131 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: For Pete's sake, This eleven year old boy is dead. 132 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: Why because his stepmother, the epitome of an evil stepmother 133 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: and father force fed him huge quantities of water and 134 00:08:51,559 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: he died. Climb stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking 135 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: about a little boy just eleven years old, Zachary Saban 136 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: now dead, a child abuse joining me an all star panel. 137 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: I want to go straight out to doctor free In Hess, physician, 138 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: child safety expert, founder of pettymom dot com. Doctor Hess 139 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at KRDO News Channel thirteen. Listen. 140 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 1: El Passo County detectives believe Zachary Sabin, an eleven year 141 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: old from Explorer Elementary, died at the hands of his parents. 142 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: He died of water intoxication, and an arresting report shows 143 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: both his father, Ryan Sabin, an active duty Fort Carson soldier, 144 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: and his stepmother Tera Saban. We're forcing him to drink 145 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: bottles of water before bed, but he kept throwing up. 146 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: His siblings told police. Zach got in trouble a lot 147 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: on the night he died. The report says he didn't 148 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: eat dinner and was leaning over and looked weak. A 149 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: police interview with Ryan Saban says he kicked his son 150 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: and at one point he fell backward and hit the 151 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: back of his head on the ground. The next morning, 152 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: Zach was found foaming at the mouth and pronounced dead. 153 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: It wasn't until three months later detectives were able to 154 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: arrest to the Sabans. What we have to do is 155 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: make sure that we are very thorough with getting reports 156 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: and documenting everything. You know, it's our job to chronicle 157 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: what has happened. They're both facing first degree murder and 158 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: child abuse charges, as they should, of course, in Texas, 159 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: there is the death penalty. I'm very curious why it's 160 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: not being sought in this case. This is not a 161 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: death penalty debate. You can believe in it or not 162 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: believe in it. The reality is it exists in many states, 163 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: and if we're gonna have it, these two Satan and 164 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: his hinch person builds above are the perfect candidates for 165 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: the death penal force fading. They're very weak. Eleven year 166 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: old little boy water until he dies, foaming at the mouth, 167 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: doctor free and has physician joining me, child safety expert, 168 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: what can you tell me about how much water it 169 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: would take to kill a child? So I think what's 170 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: most important here too is to know how much water 171 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: is normal in a kid, because in a lot of 172 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: these stories, I'm seeing that they were giving him sixty 173 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: four ounces a day of water, and that actually, for 174 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: his agees is within normal over a twenty four hour period. 175 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: So kids in generals should get the number of eight 176 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: ounce cups that is equal to their age. So if 177 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: they're four years old, they should get four eight ounce 178 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: cups throughout the entire day, up to a max of 179 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: sixty four ounces in a day. So essentially, by ten 180 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: they're eight years old they're meeting my maximum. That's what 181 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: they should have from then are now The problem is 182 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: that is over twenty four hour period of time in 183 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: a normal kid who's eating, drinking, active, doing all their 184 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: regular daily things. This particular child, Zachary, during the time 185 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: that we're talking about, he got four twenty ounce bottles 186 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: in four hours, so it's ninety six ounces of water 187 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: in a four hour period. So the problem with this 188 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: is that when you add a significant amount of water, 189 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: especially when you're adding that water very quickly to the body, 190 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: you can end up getting very severe electrolyte imbalances, specifically 191 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: sodium imbalances, which then leads to the symptoms that he 192 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: likely start to have confusion, disorientation, nausea, vomiting changes. In 193 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: this mental state, they can even become psychotic, they can 194 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: start to act out in that way, but eventually they 195 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: end up having an altered mental status to where they 196 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: become depressed, meaning not responsive. They can then lead them 197 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: into coma and death. So that's where the problem is, 198 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: is the amount of water in a short period time 199 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: being forced on this child. That is what water intoxication 200 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: in this to Laurence Sharfs twenty one Colorado Springs. We 201 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: are understanding that this Colorado couple, the bio dad and 202 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: the stepmother forced this little boy to drink four twenty 203 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: four ounce bottles, four twenty four ounce bottles of water 204 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: very very quickly. Four times twenty four would be ninety 205 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: six ounces of water in a very short time. I 206 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: understand it was punishment for bedwetting. Laurence Sharf, can you 207 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: clarify the facts as we know them now? Yeah, So, 208 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: the El Paso County Sheriff's office, you know, has accused 209 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: Ryan Saban and Terra Saban of making the eleven year 210 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: old drink sixty four ounces of water, even so much 211 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: that one of the children in the house noticed it, 212 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: and you know said that in court document said that 213 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: Zachary complained of wiggily left and that's a symptom of 214 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: this water intoxication, is inability to walk and things like that. 215 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: I know that authorities found the little boy dead in 216 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: the family home, wearing a urine soaked diaper with bruises 217 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: across his body. He's eleven years old. Kathleen Murphy, North 218 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: Carolina family lawyer. You know, I hate to even call 219 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: you a family lawyer because that sounds so cozy and wonderful. Wow. 220 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: A lawyer who practices family law, it's anything, but it's 221 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: one of the most vicious areas of the law. We're 222 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: talking about child custody, disputes that end in shootings and death, 223 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: child abused, nasty divorces. That's what family law is. But 224 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: you know what, think about it, Kathleen Murphy, an eleven 225 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: year old boy. But my son, John Dave, was eleven. 226 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: He's already taller than meat. This child was forced to 227 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: wear a urine soaked diaper and covered in bruises. You know, Nancy, 228 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: I would love to read the family court file in 229 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: this case because this wasn't a one time thing. This 230 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: is a pattern of abuse. This was a behavior. I 231 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: think that this military man may have been embarrassed that 232 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: his son had to wear diapers to bed. Well, wait 233 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: to me, I no doctor, But if you drink this 234 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: is saying ninety six ounces. I don't know what the 235 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: truth is as to how many ounces, but it's near 236 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: a gallon. If you drink a gallon of water, of 237 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: course you're gonna wet the bed that night. Yes, drinking 238 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: that night. I'm concerned that this was a pattern of 239 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: behavior that was ignored by the family court system. I 240 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: cannot believe that this eleven year old child didn't say 241 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: to his mother because they have to be so week 242 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: off custody, and didn't say to his mother, he's doing 243 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: these things to me, Mommy, this is what's happening to me. 244 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: Mommy and mommy may have gone to the court system 245 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: and tried to get relief, but the court systems said 246 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: they tend to be quiet, they're not listening. I don't 247 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: know that being quiet is a good way to put it. 248 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: I think turning the other way from fatal, deadly child 249 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: abuse maybe another way to put it more accurately with me. 250 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer Karen Start, New York psychologist, 251 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: doctor free in Hess, physician, child's safety expert Laurence shar 252 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: Fox twenty one and Joseph Scott Morgan waging in. Joe Scott, 253 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: did you hear the way the little boy was found 254 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: foaming at the mouth, wearing a urine soaked diaper and 255 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: covered in bruises? Yeah, yeah, I did, Nancy, And just 256 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: as our physician on the air with us was talking 257 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: about the electrolytes in this child's body are messed up. Okay, 258 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: you know what, I really appreciate you and doctor Free 259 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: and has his vast knowledge, but you have to dummy 260 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: down for people like me. Okay, what do you mean 261 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: by electro lights? Way out of what what does it? Yeah? 262 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: One of the things that happens, now, don't you made 263 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: me think of? You remember those old operation games where 264 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: you perform surgery and things with light up. When you 265 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: say electrolytes, that's what I think of. Are little sparkly things. 266 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: What are you saying? Well, what I'm saying is is 267 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: that these electrolytes will keep our body in balance. I mean, 268 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: think about every sports drink that's out there they talk about. 269 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: You know, they're fortified with electro lights. You know you 270 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: lose these. I don't know what that means. You lose 271 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: these through metabolism. You know, you're working out, you're sweating, 272 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Electro Lights are essential to keep 273 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: our system in balance. And one of the things that 274 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: happens is, yeah, the child will begin cramping. The child 275 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: will see but also this can lead to an event 276 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: involve in the heart where the child will have a 277 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: heart failure. Event you're talking about, He's foaming from the mouth. 278 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: More than likely. I would suspect that at autops they 279 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: found out this child's in congestive failure, probably had very 280 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: heavy lungs. But this is what I'm really concerned about, Nancy. 281 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: When you say congestive failure, I think what you mean 282 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: by that is congestive heart failure, where the lungs and 283 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: the chamber and everything gets very heavy and very difficult 284 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: to breathe. And yeah, that's why I killed my dad. 285 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: I know what you mean. And all you'll see many 286 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: times you'll see all of the organs will be very 287 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: heavily congested. But this is one of the troubling things 288 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: for me, Nancy, is the fact that this baby, and 289 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: he is baby, had these bruises around his body. I 290 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: don't I concur with everybody on the panel that this 291 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: is not a one awful thing crime stories with Nancy Grace. 292 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: We're talking about an eleven year old little boy, Zachary, 293 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: who dies a forced water intoxication, but that's not the 294 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: whole story. He's covered in bruises. This eleven year old 295 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: little boy is being forced to wear an adult is 296 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: wearing a diaper, and it's urine soaked and there are 297 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: abrasions and bruises all over him. And as a matter 298 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: of fact, when you and Kathleen are pointing out you 299 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: don't think this was a first time deal that nobody 300 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: went from zero to one hundred mph every night. You 301 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: darn right, because we're learning that in an interview with 302 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: the deputies, the Colorado Department of Human Services was contacted 303 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: about the boy before his death. That means de facts Department, 304 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: Family Children's Services CPS, Child Protective Services, they were in 305 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: on this and of course, as usual, they do nothing 306 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: and now the little boy is I'm also curious about 307 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: where the bio mom is during all of this happening. 308 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: But you're right, You and Kathleen are right, Joe Scott. 309 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: This was not their first time at the rodeo. They've 310 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: been beating this little boy for a long time. Yeah, 311 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: they have Nancy. And just so folks at home understand, 312 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that we do post 313 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: mortem in our examinations is we will do something called 314 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: aging of the bruises. Now, clinical practitioners dowte that down 315 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: of the bruises. Yea aging of the bruises, and so 316 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: everybody at home can kind of identify that when you 317 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: get bruised, all right, Uh, it's say you're you bump 318 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: into something. Those bruises they change color over a period 319 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: of time, and all that's tied back to the bruise 320 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: literally resolving, okay, kind of disappearing. And what we do 321 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: in forensics is that we document the color of these bruises, 322 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: the extent to which these this trauma took place. And 323 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: it's almost like a roadmap, Nancy, where we can look 324 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: at these and get an idea how far back in 325 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: time these things go. Now, you know, about a month, 326 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: these things have completely resolved. Everybody at home can identify 327 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: with that. But my suspicion is, and my thought is, 328 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: did this child have any kind of substantial scarring on 329 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: his body, Like was he burned, had he been cut, 330 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: had he been abraided to the point where maybe or 331 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: impacted on his body where maybe they last raided the 332 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: skin at some point in time it left a nasty 333 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: tear in his skin. Any kind of evidence like that 334 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: we look for in forensics because that literally is a 335 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: roadmap to tell the history of him. Remember, one of 336 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: the things they always say about death investigators is that 337 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: we speak for those who can no longer speak for themselves. 338 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: And with this little baby, what's going on with him 339 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: is the fact that he can't but his body can. 340 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: And hopefully they have been able to harvest some great 341 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: information post mortem off of his body. Well, you know, 342 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. We know that on that 343 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: night the father and said his son was quote only 344 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: taking SIPs of water and he would throw it up. 345 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: That's a sign to stop drinking water. Again. I'm no MD, 346 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: but if my child throws up the water, then I 347 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: know to quit giving him water or her. And then 348 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: when he threw up the water, the father demanded the 349 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: little boy drank all the water and quote burp it out. 350 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: He forced him to chug the water. And our sources 351 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: are saying four twenty four ounce bottles of water, four 352 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: twenty four ounce bottles of water within an hour. Take 353 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: a listen now to our friends at Fox twenty one. 354 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: The arrest warrants were issued yesterday and last night the 355 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: two forty one year old Ryan Sabin and forty two 356 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: year old Terror Sabin turned themselves in. They each have 357 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: two children from previous marriages and then had two together. 358 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: All six children between the ages of three and sixteen 359 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: were living at the home at the time the child 360 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: passed away. The child who passed away was Ryan Saban's son. 361 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: The more details that come out, as far as the 362 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: arrest warrant being released and stuff like that, I think 363 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: everybody's going to see how truly sad this cases. Details 364 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: and the arrest documents released Wednesday explained statements from the 365 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: couple about how their eleven year old son died. The 366 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: two lived at this home north of Black Forest in 367 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: El Paso County. The child's father told police his eleven 368 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: year old son was supposed to drink water due to 369 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: his bed wedding issue, and the night before he died, 370 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: he was flailing around putting on an act. In the 371 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: stepmother's interview with police, she said the child used to 372 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: do exercises which were given to him by a physical therapist, 373 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: but he would get dramatic and throw tantrums about doing them. 374 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: She said he would cry and say he couldn't do 375 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: them and throw himself on the floor. Really threw himself 376 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: on the floor because the father told in sigators he 377 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: picked up his son and then quote dropped him on 378 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: his head, dropped him hitting his head. I don't believe 379 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 1: that for one minute. Joining me is Lauren Schorf Fox 380 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: twenty one. Lauren. The parents have now been arrested. They 381 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: gave a statement. The arrest affidavit says little Zachary suffered 382 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: other physical abuse as well as did the other five children. 383 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: What do you know, Lauren? So the coroner also noted 384 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: that Zachary had multiple bruises from blunt force trauma, including 385 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: concusions on his arm, legs, and near his left eye. 386 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: And I also do want to point out that the 387 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: coroner also noted that he was given ninety six ounces 388 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: of water over that four hour period without food. Okay, 389 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: thank you. I like all the clarification I can get. 390 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: So it is ninety six ounces, So that is four 391 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: bottles we think twenty four ounces each over four hours. 392 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: And I noticed that there was blood on the bed. 393 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Curly Moore. According to 394 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: the arrest papers, on March tenth, the eleven year old 395 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: got in trouble for not drinking enough water and was 396 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: told to drink more. The boy's father told police he 397 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: was taking small SIPs and throwing up, saying the eleven 398 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: year old was drinking the water too slowly and that's 399 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: why he was throwing up, so he made him chug Moore. 400 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: The documents show the eleven year old was told to 401 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: keep drinking water while the rest of the family ate dinner. 402 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: Those details are important to figure those things out and 403 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: everybody stakes of mind in a case. The father also 404 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: said he kicked the eleven year old a few times 405 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: when he threw a fit. According to the affidavit, after 406 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: being put to bed around eleven fifteen pm the night before, 407 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: Ryan Sabin call nine one one just after six am, 408 00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: saying when he went down to check on the child, 409 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: there was blood and he was foaming out the mouth. 410 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: He was cold and stiff. According to the arrest half 411 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: of David, authority says Zachary's five siblings, aged two to fifteen, 412 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: were also victims of abuse. We're learning that and so 413 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: much more about the death of this little boy. Back 414 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: to Free and Hess, physician, child safety expert, founder of 415 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: pettymom dot com Dodger Hess. Now, you were saying earlier 416 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: that that amount is a normal amount. I don't. I 417 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: can't agree with that ninety six ounces hours night. I 418 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: never said ninety six ounces of water in four hours 419 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: is normal, and never said about what I said was 420 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: the sixty four ounces that he had been given per day, 421 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: which is what is in a lot of the media 422 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: stories that is a normal amount within the twenty four 423 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: okay because they because then the autopsy report does say 424 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: ninety six hours ninety six ounces. No, I agree. I 425 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: was trying to clarify because so many of the media 426 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: stories are saying that that the sixty four ounces is 427 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: what was abnormal, and that is not the ninety six 428 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: ounces in four hours is extremely abnormal. Ninety six hours 429 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: even in twenty four hours is abnormal. But specifically speaking, 430 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,479 Speaker 1: ninety six ounces of water in a four hour period 431 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: runs a huge, huge risk for electrolyte balances, and I'm 432 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: just going to take a quick moment to maybe make 433 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: that a little bit more understandable for the nantes there. 434 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: We have a very specific amount of sodium, which is 435 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: salt and potassium in our body along with other electrolytes, 436 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: but those two specifically end that being kind of the 437 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: main players in this and more so sodium even than potassium. 438 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: So we have a nice balance in there along with 439 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: how much water we have in our in our body, 440 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: the majority of our body is water. Our kidneys work 441 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: really well to keep that maintained. When you add too 442 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: much water to quickly, which has zero electrolytes, so that 443 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: means it has zero podium, zero potassium in it, it 444 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: is just plain water, you actually disturb those electrolytes to 445 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 1: the point where your sodium and potassium can drop. So 446 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: we're worried a lot about the sodium here. That's salt 447 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: in your body ends up decreasing tremendously because you've added 448 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: so much of a fluid without any electrolytes, your kidneys 449 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: can't keep up then, and then as a result, you 450 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: end up getting initial symptoms, which it sounds like he 451 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: had of being confused, nauseous, vomiting, and even happening out 452 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: because they can become psychotic, so he initially had that. 453 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: And then as this water intoxication progresses, then you start 454 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: to see really significant organ damage due to that electrolyte abnormality. 455 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: So you can end up having cardiac issues, so you 456 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: can have arrhythmias, you can end up going into renal 457 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: failure or kidney failure. There's and it goes on and 458 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: on and on. As one ran then fails, it starts 459 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: affecting another, and that's essentially what happened. Now if you 460 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: give that amount the correct amount of sixty four ounces max. 461 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: But like I said, if the child last eight ounces 462 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: equal to the age, if you give it over a day, 463 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: your body has a lot more time to help balance that. 464 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: Back out crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking 465 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: about a little boy, now dad eleven years old, because 466 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: his stepmother and father force fed him water till he died. 467 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: He was foaming at the mouth, he was covered in bruises, 468 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: he had a urine so diaper on. When authorities arrived, 469 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: there was blood in his bed, but they didn't notice 470 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: any of that. This sounds like retaliation for the child 471 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: not doing what the parents wanted him to do. He 472 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: couldn't do it. He was vomiting up water, yet they 473 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: continued to beat and kick him to make him drink 474 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: the water. It's not the first time you'd think, Wow, 475 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: of course you want your child to drink water. It's 476 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: not the first time parents had used what would seem 477 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: like a normal thing to torture their children. Take a 478 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: listen to what happened to a nine year old little girl. 479 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: I investigated Savannah Harden last Friday afternoon about three o'clock. So, 480 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: nine year old Savannah Harden comes home from elementary school 481 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: with her grandmother. She was fine when she left school. 482 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: She gets back to her house and that's when an 483 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: investigators say, the grandmother discovered that at some point, We're 484 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: not sure exactly when this was. Maybe it was Friday, 485 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: maybe it was the day before, the grandmother found out 486 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: that Savannah had had a candy bar. Now, she was 487 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: not supposed to have chocolate, according to the grandmother, forty 488 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: six year old Doris Garrard, because Savannah had a bladder 489 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: condition that they believed chocolate could exacerbate or make worse. 490 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: So to punish her, according to investigators, Joyce Gerard began 491 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: making her drainschild run around the house and this continued, 492 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: they say, for about three hours until she collapsed into 493 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: a seizure about six forty five. That's when her stepmom, 494 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: twenty six year old Jessica Harden, who by the way, 495 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: at the time was nine months pregnant, calls nine one 496 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: one and says, my stepdaughters having a seizure. Medics come 497 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: out to this scene in rule Edowa County, northeast of Birmingham, 498 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: take her to a local hospital. Nay beside. She's in 499 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: bad enough condition, they're going to airlift her to Children's 500 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: Hospital in Birmingham and that is where she died about 501 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: noon on Monday. That little girl, so abound, a hard 502 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: nine years old, was being forced to exercise and it 503 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: wasn't just jogging. They made her carry logs as she 504 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: was jogging in the heat, and the mother stood by 505 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: on the porch while all this happened until the little 506 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: girl died because she had a candy bar. Then we 507 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: have the case of Charlie Bothel. Take a listen to 508 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: our friends at WDIV. Charlie Bothel the fourth took amplete 509 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: deal before Judge Margaret van Holten. It's been a long 510 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: road to this. After you appeared in the Nancy Grace 511 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: television show back in July of twenty fourteen, while looking 512 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: for his missing son, Charlie Baffle the film Your Son 513 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: Has Been Found Any of your basement fe one Metro Detroit. 514 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: Will ever forget the lie of exchange? I have no ideal. Yes, 515 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: and according to reports, he would force his son to exercise, 516 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: lift weights, exercise on a treadmill till exhaustion. To our 517 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: psychologists joining us on New York psychologist Karen Start at 518 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: Karen start dot com. What is this a seemingly normal 519 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: thing like Lucy and I go and walks almost every day, 520 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: and John David rides his bike while we're walking. How 521 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: do you turn something like exercise or drinking water, which 522 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: sounds like good things, into torture? Remember when we covered this, Nancy, 523 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: it's abuse. You're not abusive toward Lucy. This is a 524 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: father who never should have been able to raise a 525 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: child because he can't do it. This child was repeatedly beaten. 526 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: If you hear his testimony, it is one of the 527 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: most terrific stories, and very luckily in this case, he 528 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: survives and was able to tell his story. However, in 529 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 1: this case, little Zachary is dead. Listen to Nie Channel thirteen. 530 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: This is Julie Donovan. What exactly causes water intoxication? You 531 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: drink too much h twoo, and your kidneys can't keep up. 532 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: Then the water dilutes the salt into electrolytes in your body, 533 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: pushing more water into your cells. The problem with that 534 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: is that can cause the cells to swell and become damaged, 535 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: and that's what can cause the serious outcomes. According to 536 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: the EL Paso County Coroner Zachary Zabin died from forced 537 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: water intoxication after his body was found in bed with 538 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: bruises foaming at the melt. You can drink quite a 539 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: lot of water very safely, but when to become water intoxicated, 540 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: it really has to be an extraordinary large amount of 541 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: water and usually take in very quickly. Zachary Sabin's father 542 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: and stepmother, charged with his murder told investigators the pediatrician 543 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: instructed them to give him twelve cups of water in 544 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: four hours to train him not to wet the bed er. 545 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Jennifer Vernon says she's skeptical that's all they gave him. 546 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: That actually seems like it could even be a low 547 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: amount of water. I bet it was more water than 548 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: that to cause that kind of outcome. Absolutely earlier, I 549 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: said Texas because of El Paso Counties is Colorado. The 550 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: Colorado couple accused of killing their eleven year old son 551 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: by forcing him to drink large amounts of water. Also 552 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: back to doctor free and Hess, physician and child safety expert. 553 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: The earlier case I was talking about with Charles Bothel. 554 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: Twice a day every day, the twelve year old had 555 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: to complete or workout one hundred push ups, two hundred setups, 556 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: one hundred jumping jacks, twenty five curls on each arm 557 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: with the twenty five pound weight, and thousands, literally thousands 558 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: of evolutions on an elliptical machine. If he did not 559 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: finish all of that, he would have to start over. 560 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: We know that he had been beaten, disciplined, as the 561 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: father said, with a PBC pipe, sometimes making him so 562 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: sore he could not even sit or walk. Have you 563 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: seen cases doctor has where parents take what seems to 564 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: be a good thing, like exercise or drinking water, to 565 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: the extreme and use it as torture. I have. Unfortunately, 566 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: being a physician in the pediatric emergency department leads you 567 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: to see a lot of pretty horrific things, and I 568 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: have seen cases similar to this, especially with the exercise issue, 569 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: because oftentimes they come in with medical issues as a 570 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: result of over exercising, which is very much a thing 571 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: and which can be deadly, which is what we saw 572 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: in the nine year old little girl. There's a lot 573 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: of different things that can happen when somebody forces a 574 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: child or anybody really, but especially a child to exercise 575 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: to excess, and none of those things are good. I 576 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: want to go back to Lauren shar Fucks twenty one, 577 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: Colorado Springs. Lauren tell me about the charges against the 578 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: evil stepmother and the father. So that first degree murder 579 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: charge has actually been dropped for Tara Saban, So now 580 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: she just faces the child abuse resulting in death of 581 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: Zachary Sabin, and then also she faces additional five misdemeanor 582 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: child abuse charges. Ryan Saban still has that first degree 583 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: murder charge. He still doesn't have bond. Now Tara Saban 584 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: has a fifty thousand dollars bond. Also, the medical examiner 585 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: said in court that Taren Ryan should have sought medical 586 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: attention when Zachary started showing symptoms like a headache, vomiting, 587 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: ability to talk or sleep, and the descent. Also argued 588 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: zachary symptoms could have been consistent with kidney failure, but 589 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 1: the medical examiner said, nope, she didn't. She didn't see 590 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 1: any sign of kidney malfunction. But to Kathley Murphy, North 591 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: Carolina family lawyer at NCA Domestic Law dot com, Kathleen Murphy, 592 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: listen carefully to what we're learning from just released police documents. 593 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 1: We're learning that Zach's father and stepmother said doctors told 594 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,399 Speaker 1: him to give Zachary twelve cups of water in four 595 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: hours to train him not to wet the bed. I've 596 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: never heard of that ever. Well, instead of putting on 597 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: my lawyer hat, I'm going to put on my mommy hat, 598 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: and if my child is literally incapacitated from drinking something 599 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: and in pain and suffering, I'm going to get a 600 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: say opinion. I'm not going to do that to my kid. 601 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: But I have to even go back, Nancy. This is 602 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: a case where I think the prosecutor should look at 603 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: the past with these parents and the other children that 604 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: are in the home, and there will be, in all 605 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 1: likelihood a pattern of abuse. Oh absolutely, We've already seen that. 606 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: There are documents that stay the other siblings have been 607 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: abused as well. But there is no way this is 608 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: not premeditated murder. Premeditation can be formed in a twinkling 609 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: of a moment, the blink of an eye, the timing 610 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: taste to raise the gun and pull the trigger. As 611 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: I like to tell juries, they stood by and forced 612 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: fed this child water till he died. This is murder. 613 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 1: One shame shame on whoever dropped charges of murder, one 614 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: against the mother. May they both wrought in hell. We 615 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace's crime story is signing 616 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,