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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I love word origins

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Speaker 1: and one of the things I found out about my

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Speaker 1: surname Morgan is that it derives from some people say

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Speaker 1: a Welsh word that actually means water, sprite or one.

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Speaker 1: It can be translated to one that dwells by the sea.

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Speaker 1: But the term sprite always was interesting to me because

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Speaker 1: I didn't really know what a sprite was, And apparently,

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Speaker 1: apparently a sprite is like a fairy, is what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's a mythological creature, right. Well, today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about another type of fairy, a bit more notorious fairy,

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Speaker 1: a fairy that many people have referred to over the

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Speaker 1: years as the Green Fairy. I'm going to talk about

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Speaker 1: a case that befuddled many people for a number of weeks.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't really figure it out, but it's something I

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Speaker 1: wanted to discuss for some time. It involves a beautiful wife,

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Speaker 1: her veteran army husband, and the Green Fairy of absence.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs. David.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I want to Is it from the

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Speaker 1: Green Ferry? I gotta tell you, I got I was

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Speaker 1: telling you this before the show. Actually, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about things yesterday and I'd mentioned to you that in

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Speaker 1: New Orleans, literally right on Bourbon Street, there is a

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Speaker 1: bar in this bar. Like many some things come and

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Speaker 1: go in the French Quarter, all right, but there's certain

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Speaker 1: places in the French Quarter that you can just you

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Speaker 1: know that they're there, they've always been there and they're

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Speaker 1: not going anywhere. And there's a couple of places like that.

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Speaker 1: Lafitte's blacksmith Shop is amazing because Jean Lafitte actually went

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Speaker 1: in this place to plan his piracy and all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: But there's another place there that's called the Old Absinth Bar,

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Speaker 1: and it's ever since my childhood, I remember that place

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Speaker 1: being there, and it goes back years and years and years,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it has to do with the

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Speaker 1: French culture and the European culture. They specialize in a

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Speaker 1: particular drink that is made from absinthe. And if for

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Speaker 1: those of you that don't know about Absinth, it has

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Speaker 1: a very unique history, kind of a notorious history actually

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Speaker 1: going back many many years to the point where many

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Speaker 1: people in Europe and in America viewed it as something

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Speaker 1: that the loss should regulate. Can you imagine that. And

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Speaker 1: it's rooted in an event, if I remember correctly, involving

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Speaker 1: a Swiss farmer who allegedly drank absent and then went

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Speaker 1: about murdering his entire family. And that was kind of

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Speaker 1: ground zero for them beginning to outlaw this liquor in

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Speaker 1: a variety of locations throughout Europe and eventually and of course,

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Speaker 1: all of this happened in the middle of the of

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Speaker 1: the abolition movement relative to alcohol. So many times you

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Speaker 1: don't know what's truth and what isn't right, you know,

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Speaker 1: and they can take something and kind of twist it

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Speaker 1: around for their own you know. We've never heard politicians

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Speaker 1: do there, so you never know.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, the reason we're even talking about it,

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Speaker 2: the little Green barrier, whatever it is, absentth is because

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Speaker 2: of an event that took place in Alabama. In Kolera, Alabama,

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Speaker 2: Jeff West and his wife Cat West had date night

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Speaker 2: and when date night was over, Cat west body nude

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Speaker 2: body was found I guess you had a brawl, but

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Speaker 2: was found in front of their house early in the morning,

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Speaker 2: found by a young girl who was on her way

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Speaker 2: to her fast food restaurant to work her early shift

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Speaker 2: and sees the beautiful Cat West laid out, obviously not moving,

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Speaker 2: but she was dead. So date night, dinner, drinks, Mom

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Speaker 2: and dad have our daughter, and then within twelve hours,

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Speaker 2: Cat West is dead. For me, Joe, I had a

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Speaker 2: radio partner in Birmingham, Alabama, in the late nineties doing

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Speaker 2: a country morning show and it was the Cat and

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Speaker 2: Mac Show. My partner was in cat West, not the

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Speaker 2: cat West we're talking about, but if you can imagine,

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Speaker 2: because Klara is just south of Birmingham, Alabama, it's a

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Speaker 2: you know, it's a commuter city for a lot of folks,

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Speaker 2: and there were conservatively thousands that reached out when this

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Speaker 2: happened in the area. Is that your cat? And I said, no,

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Speaker 2: this is a different one. But it was two things.

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Speaker 2: One people were deeply concerned about how a woman could

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Speaker 2: end up after date night, dead naked in front of

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Speaker 2: her house. And the other was my old radio partner.

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Speaker 2: I thought, where were y'all? We needed ratings. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: the story of Absinth was brought into this because Cat

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Speaker 2: west body was found in front of her house. She's dead,

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Speaker 2: her cell phone is cracked in there and laying on

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Speaker 2: top of it, standing on top of it, is a

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Speaker 2: bottle of absinthe. That's those are your clues, dead woman,

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Speaker 2: bottle of absent on top of the phone.

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Speaker 1: To tell you what happened. From my perspective as a

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Speaker 1: as a death investigator, you know, this is not the

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Speaker 1: only tom where I have encountered a story. Actually I

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Speaker 1: worked I worked a case involving the placement of a

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Speaker 1: wine bottle. And you know, you go out on these

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Speaker 1: scenes many times, in particularly where there's total chaos, and

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Speaker 1: you can go into a home where there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of drinking going on, and I've walked in and and

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Speaker 1: you know, you've got all kinds of empty alcohol containers

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Speaker 1: lying about. And that doesn't go to what I think

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Speaker 1: probably people that are in the profiling business would say

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Speaker 1: an organized mindset. It's very disorganized. You walk into an

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Speaker 1: environment it's very chaotic. Actually had a guy that drank

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Speaker 1: three if you can imagine this, he was chronic alcoholic,

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Speaker 1: but he drank three bottles of red wine, wrote a

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Speaker 1: note and placed the note on top of the bottles

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Speaker 1: that were upright, and then had a gigantic wine glass

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Speaker 1: that he sat on top of the note which was

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Speaker 1: underpinned by these bottles. Now, can you imagine having to

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Speaker 1: do that being that drunk, but his tolerance was so high,

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Speaker 1: and then he proceeded to take his life. And those

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Speaker 1: bottles were that bottle meant something, those bottles, that collection

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Speaker 1: meant something. It was like an indication that he had

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Speaker 1: determined that he was going to take his life in

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Speaker 1: this case, and he was able to ingest this wine.

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Speaker 1: His blood alcohol was through the roof, as you can imagine,

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Speaker 1: but he was still functional. And you have a lot

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Speaker 1: of blood sugar. Oh yeah, yeah, that wine on the

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Speaker 1: level and yeah, you're absolutely right. And interestingly enough, this

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Speaker 1: handwritten note that he left behind had beautiful clarity, you know,

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Speaker 1: his his his, uh, his handwriting was impeccable, which to me,

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Speaker 1: even if I had half a bottle of wine, I'd

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Speaker 1: be passed out on the floor of sleep snoring heavily.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, what what does it mean? You know, when

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Speaker 1: you go out to a scene and you see objects,

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Speaker 1: objects tell you a lot. At a scene. You begin

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Speaker 1: to think about objects that are placed in a particular way.

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Speaker 1: So what can we ascertain from you know, where you

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Speaker 1: have a cell phone and then you have a bottle

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Speaker 1: that is positioned on top of it like it has

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Speaker 1: been put there, and then you've got arguably this very

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Speaker 1: attractive woman who.

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Speaker 2: Is By the way, let me clarify why we say that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: The reason we say is she was an online model.

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Speaker 2: She had an online presence, She had an online business

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Speaker 2: that dealt with her in various stages of undressed pictures

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Speaker 2: that her husband took oftentimes, and I just I don't

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Speaker 2: want to go overboard thinking she's beautiful, but she was.

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Speaker 2: She was a beautiful woman. And that's I think one

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Speaker 2: of the things that we tend to look at, yeah

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Speaker 2: when we say beautiful, because physically she was a beautiful

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Speaker 2: woman and she had the pictures to prove it. And

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Speaker 2: that actually is why there was so much to this

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Speaker 2: story that because was it one of the guys online

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Speaker 2: you know, But we'll get into that in a minute.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to clarify, It's not like you and

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Speaker 2: I just saw a picture everyone went wow. This has

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Speaker 2: been a part of this story since the very beginning.

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Speaker 2: And to be honest with you, even her friends, people

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Speaker 2: who knew both Kat and Jeff West were amazed because

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Speaker 2: they were kind of a mutton Jeff couple. Jeff West

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Speaker 2: not a whole lot to look at and they're like,

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Speaker 2: I think one of her friends actually said, you know,

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Speaker 2: how did that guy get this right?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it was the opposite of the tract thing

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Speaker 2: that she was loud and beautiful and all that, but

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Speaker 2: apparently just an incredibly nice, wonderful woman people really loved,

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Speaker 2: including her husband, Jeff West.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they have child as well, and I'm and

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things relative to this particular night.

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Speaker 1: You know, they had set up a date night, you know,

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Speaker 1: which know my wife and I did when our kids

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Speaker 1: were young, you know, if you could find somebody to

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Speaker 1: watch her child.

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Speaker 2: And that was their regular date night. Their daughter was

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Speaker 2: twelve at the time, and they did.

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Speaker 1: And it's a treat, you know, to be able to

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Speaker 1: go out with and you know, you kind of it's

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Speaker 1: like a date. You feel young again. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: you're free from all of these responsibilities at home, you know,

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Speaker 1: and all these sorts of things and just for a

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Speaker 1: moment you can kind of escape. But the one thing

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Speaker 1: that cat could not escape was the fact that by

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Speaker 1: the next morning after their date night, she was dead.

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Speaker 1: That sinds Lorraine. It's a it's an area that is,

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Speaker 1: you know, in Switzerland, you and this is the way

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Speaker 1: I understand it is that you've kind of got and

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Speaker 1: please forgive me. To all of our Swiss listeners, I

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Speaker 1: don't mean to insult you, but this is my limited understanding.

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Speaker 1: The eastern portion of Switzerland is more German and in

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Speaker 1: the western portion of Switzerland leans more French. Obviously it

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Speaker 1: shares border with France. There's an area over there called

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Speaker 1: Al Saints Lorraine. And the reason that's important geographically is

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Speaker 1: that that's where a plant grows that's referred to and

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Speaker 1: this kind of gives your makes my skin crawl when

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Speaker 1: I hear about it is wormwood, and it is from

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Speaker 1: wormwood traditionally that absent is produced and when it's in

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Speaker 1: its purest form when it was first discovered by I

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Speaker 1: think a Swiss physician, and he was using it to

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Speaker 1: cure things like gout and this sort of thing, to

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Speaker 1: give people relief. But they also realized because the naturally

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Speaker 1: occurring high alcohol alcohol content after distillation, that they could

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Speaker 1: use it as an antiseptic. So it had multiple uses,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you go back years and years and

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Speaker 1: you think about, you know, people that they relied on

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Speaker 1: nature to provide all of the pharmaceuticals. Back then they

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Speaker 1: were looking for substance, and boy did they find one.

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Speaker 1: And this because in its purest form, the alcohol that

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Speaker 1: is made that is consumed absent, that is consumed by folks,

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Speaker 1: it had a very strong halution n agenic effects, so

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Speaker 1: you could have and people would get raw and drunk

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Speaker 1: off of this stuff. And then it also had this

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Speaker 1: component where you would hallucinate when you drink it, and

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Speaker 1: I think it really scared people, and it it didn't help.

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Speaker 1: It didn't help either that there were people that that

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Speaker 1: wasn't enough for them. There were people that would begin

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Speaker 1: to put drops of opium in this drink. So it

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Speaker 1: it really kicked it up to another level.

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Speaker 2: Didn't you tell me that's what Ernest Hemingway did.

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Speaker 1: Well, Yeah, there were a lot of these famous writers,

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Speaker 1: you know that. There were a couple of drinks, I

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Speaker 1: know Absence and then there's another drink called prenou which

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Speaker 1: is it kind of tastes like I've actually tasted Absence

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Speaker 1: before and it's got and I don't find the taste

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Speaker 1: pleasant to me. It's got kind of a black liquorice

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Speaker 1: taste to it, which is not something that's pleasant. I

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Speaker 1: mean a lot of people love my grand my grandparents

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Speaker 1: thought that black licorice was like the greatest thing in

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Speaker 1: the world, you know. But they like molasses too. So

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Speaker 1: when you've got limited means, you know, there's certain things

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Speaker 1: that task wonderful, I guess, but for me it's just not.

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Speaker 1: It wouldn't be no pun intended my cup of tea.

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Speaker 1: But but yeah, And the reason we're we're talking about

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Speaker 1: this is that that night we do have there is

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Speaker 1: CCTV of Kat and Jeff West walking into a liquor

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Speaker 1: store there in the in the Greater Metropolitan Area of Birmingham, Alabama,

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Speaker 1: and they're there to purchase a bottle of absence Dave.

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Speaker 2: And this date night where they went to dinner and

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Speaker 2: had drinks while they're uh, I think it was cat

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Speaker 2: West's mom and dad watched their daughter Lola. They were

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Speaker 2: in a good mood, you know. They were on their

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Speaker 2: way home and stopped at the liquor store bought the

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Speaker 2: bottle of absinthe. And we know this because we saw

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Speaker 2: the security camera footage. It was a big deal when

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Speaker 2: that was released because you could not you but in general,

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Speaker 2: it looked like they were a couple uh enamored with

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Speaker 2: one another. They were having a good time. There was

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Speaker 2: no tension. They were actually physically, you know, yeah, demonstrating

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Speaker 2: their relationship.

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Speaker 1: He playfully and I'm gonna phrase it that way, playfully

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Speaker 1: popped her on her bottom, you know, while they were

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Speaker 1: they were in an aisle and you can see this,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't like an aggressive kind of thing. It

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Speaker 1: was like a love tap on a rear end. And

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Speaker 1: you know that that speaks a lot. So how how

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Speaker 1: do you go from this point where you're in this

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Speaker 1: environment and you've got, wow, sound like a school school

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Speaker 1: principle here, where you've got public displays of affection, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, in this environment, and then the next morning

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Speaker 1: to find her unclose essentially except for a top and

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Speaker 1: line essentially adjacent to the roadway, partially hanging off of

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Speaker 1: a curve from the way it sounds, and her body

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Speaker 1: positioned on the grass? How do you get to that point?

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Speaker 1: And I think that the authorities had to try to

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Speaker 1: understand that what else is at work here? You know?

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Speaker 2: You know, I thought it was interesting when you said

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Speaker 2: positioned because we've got a couple of things going on

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Speaker 2: with the crime scene here. But to back up for

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Speaker 2: a minute, between the date night and the death. They

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Speaker 2: go to the liquor store and that's the last image

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Speaker 2: we have of cat West that we know of. They

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Speaker 2: go home from there and continue drinking. They'd had a

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Speaker 2: couple of drinks at dinner. They continue drinking at home

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Speaker 2: as the evening went on. Investigators believed they were drinking

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Speaker 2: a lot, which was not an uncommon thing for the couple.

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Speaker 2: Drink a lot. They like to drink. There is some

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Speaker 2: discussion about kat West's online activities. She had really ramped

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Speaker 2: up her online presence. She was making money as a

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Speaker 2: stay at home mom. She was making money online with

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Speaker 2: a couple of different websites. One is called only Fans.

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Speaker 2: You might have heard of Only Fans. It has become

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Speaker 2: fairly popular in the last couple of years for women

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Speaker 2: to make money on the side or full time. We've

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Speaker 2: had a number of stories about teachers not making enough

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Speaker 2: money teaching, so they get an only Fans page up

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Speaker 2: and then get fired from the school and you find out, well,

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Speaker 2: they were making more in a month on only Fans

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Speaker 2: than they got paid the entire year as a teacher.

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Speaker 2: And that was where cat West she was in the

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Speaker 2: beginning of that stage. And there is a discussion about

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Speaker 2: how often Jeff West had a problem with it. Did

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Speaker 2: Jeff West have no problem with his wife sharing these

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Speaker 2: intimate photos of herself online and allow men to pay

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Speaker 2: to see these videos and bigger ones? Or was he

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Speaker 2: forward or against it? Did he only have a problem

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Speaker 2: with it when he was drinking. I mean, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of things in this and the suggestion is

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Speaker 2: that Jeff West was not happy about the direction his

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Speaker 2: wife was going online and that while they were both drinking,

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Speaker 2: it led to an argument. And in this argument, Jeff

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Speaker 2: West is accused of beating his wife to death, using

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Speaker 2: the absence bottle to cause her death. That is what

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Speaker 2: he was convicted of doing. Saying convicted of doing because

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Speaker 2: when her body was found, we have said partially nude

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Speaker 2: and mostly nude, whatever you want to say. We know

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Speaker 2: that at night, sometime during the night, Jeff took pictures

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Speaker 2: of his wife and a bra, panties and a bra.

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Speaker 2: But when she was found next to the road at

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Speaker 2: five o'clock in the morning or whenever it was, it

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Speaker 2: was very early in the morning, she did not have

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Speaker 2: any panties on. She did have her bra, and that

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Speaker 2: was it. Her body had been moved. Joe and I

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Speaker 2: want to get to the crime scene very quickly here

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Speaker 2: if we can, because the blood at the scene tells

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Speaker 2: a story that I don't understand, because I'm not you.

300
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Speaker 2: Most of us have a little trouble when we actually

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Speaker 2: get into the nuance of a crime scene. But in

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Speaker 2: this particular case, the police said that her body had

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Speaker 2: been moved and the bottle of absence was placed on

304
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Speaker 2: top of the cell phone. Oh think back up. They

305
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 2: said during the argument that Jeff West was so mad

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Speaker 2: at his wife that he threw her phone out the

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Speaker 2: door and that damage to the One.

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Speaker 1: Of the one of the threads that runs through this

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Speaker 1: is you know, obviously phone activity, and it has been

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Speaker 1: stated that he had grown weary of her spending so

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Speaker 1: much time on her phone and essentially ignoring him. And

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine, you know, he's he's thinking about

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Speaker 1: it because it's well, I don't know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if there's a delineation or not. But if you if

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Speaker 1: you are taking photos of the person that you're you know,

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Speaker 1: married to, and you're pushing those out on the web

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Speaker 1: and selling these essentially, now you go up to another

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Speaker 1: level where you're actually doing live videography and you're because

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Speaker 1: with only fans, you're performing for people. And I got

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Speaker 1: to tell you, you know, when I when I first began

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Speaker 1: to look into this case, and you had mentioned this earlier,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I began to think about is stalker,

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Speaker 1: you know, because it's as you know, it's a very

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Speaker 1: dark world out there in the digital space. And you know,

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Speaker 1: how how vulnerable are you as a person when you know,

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Speaker 1: you strip away all of your clothing and you're displaying

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Speaker 1: to the entire world. You know this this such an intimate,

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Speaker 1: intimate I don't know a view of you in this

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Speaker 1: and people think that they own you at that point, Tom,

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Speaker 1: And it's it's terrifying from the perspective of anybody could

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Speaker 1: come into this environment because look, it doesn't take a

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Speaker 1: lot dave for people to find you where you live.

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Speaker 1: You might think that you have a certain amount of

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Speaker 1: anonymity out there, but that's not the case. You know it,

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Speaker 1: and I know it, Joe.

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Speaker 2: There was a show we did on Nancy Grace last week.

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Speaker 2: It was about a stocker. It was dealing with Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift Stoker in New York that was arrested four or

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Speaker 2: five times in a five day period. And on that show.

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Speaker 2: There is an actress who has been stocked, has a

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Speaker 2: stalker that has followed her around. And we're talking years here,

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Speaker 2: including stocking her little daughter from the time that she

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Speaker 2: was five years old until she became an adult. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's crazy, but you know, one of the things she

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Speaker 2: pointed out, I'm only going to say this because y'all

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Speaker 2: need to know this. She said. One way that people

347
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: can find you is you might have everything on your

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Speaker 2: social media, you know, locked down, tight, with no addresses

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Speaker 2: or anything else. It's not you. If I'm in a

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Speaker 2: photo with Joe Scott Morgan, I'm locked up, I'm climmed down.

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Speaker 2: You can't find me on my stuff or you know.

352
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Speaker 2: But I'm in a picture with Joe Scott Morgan. Then

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Speaker 2: the stalker finds he sees that picture, sees me, and

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Speaker 2: it looks at other people in the photo. Well, there's Joe,

355
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Speaker 2: there's Just's wife, and then they start looking up these

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Speaker 2: other people in the photo to see if one of

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Speaker 2: them can track back to the stalker's person. And that's

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Speaker 2: how they find you. It's not through you, it's for

359
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: others that you associate with. Yes, And it is so

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Speaker 2: intense and the minutia that is there. I would have

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Speaker 2: never thought about it, but now that we have people

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Speaker 2: who really are I don't want to say crazy, but

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Speaker 2: they're not right. And so the first thought was, here

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Speaker 2: is Cat West putting these pictures and photos out hit

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Speaker 2: husband oftentimes take the pictures and the videos. Does she

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Speaker 2: have a stalker that believed that he was in a

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00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: relationship with her? And when he shows up and sees

368
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: Cat West with her husband having fun at their house,

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Speaker 2: loses his cookies and kills her.

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Speaker 1: And that would be And then you have a sexual

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Speaker 1: element to it too, because anytime you come across a

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Speaker 1: and you know you have well anybody can be nude,

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Speaker 1: and you see it and you think that automatically there

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Speaker 1: is a sexual element. But when you consider this woman

375
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Speaker 1: who is in this, let's face it, a very provocative

376
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: position at that scene in front of her house, in

377
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Speaker 1: view of the neighborhood, or somebody trying to send a message,

378
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: it's the tiny details that will either lead to success

379
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: or will spoil your investigation because you missed them. Those

380
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: of us that are investigators and have been investigators, Lord knows,

381
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Speaker 1: I've missed my share of indicators that scenes over the

382
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Speaker 1: years and in this particular case, I think that there's

383
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Speaker 1: a lot of granular detail, Dave that could give an

384
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Speaker 1: indication as to the dynamics of what happened that night

385
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Speaker 1: and how Kat actually actually wound up in this let's

386
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Speaker 1: say it again, in this very very provocative position in

387
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Speaker 1: her front yard.

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Speaker 2: Essentially, I find it fascinating. I don't you know, I said,

389
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Speaker 2: I find it fascinating. But Kat West is dead, and

390
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Speaker 2: I think about her daughter growing up without her mother,

391
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Speaker 2: and I don't I want to. I feel like I'm

392
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Speaker 2: saying fascinated, and it makes it somehow diminished, and that's

393
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: not what I mean. But in this case, the prosecution

394
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: and the defense, based on the evidence they have from

395
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 2: inside the home, based on the video at the liquor store,

396
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: other than the actual end that they say, the scene

397
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: tells the story, and the scene is set so much

398
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: that we've talked about her being nearly nude on the

399
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: front yard dead, But Joe, what can you tell from

400
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: blood on the scene, what does it actually tell you?

401
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 2: We know that they were out, they had a drink,

402
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 2: they came home, continued drinking. He took two photos of

403
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: her in the bra she was found in, and some

404
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: multicolored panties and stilettos and put those online. We know this, No,

405
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 2: we don't know that you put them online. We know

406
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: that he took the pictures, they were on the phone.

407
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: But how she ended up in the front yard dead,

408
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 2: her phone cracked in a bottle of absence sitting on

409
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: the top of the phone. Does the scene tell you

410
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: what happened?

411
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: The blood actually gives you an indication of movement and activity,

412
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: and that's what we you know, we we always look

413
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: for at at a scene, you know, trying to understand

414
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: the dynamics of an event and where an individual may

415
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: have come, for instance, to rest. And you know, in

416
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: in this particular case, there were two primary spots of

417
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: blood that were found out by the roadway. Uh. And

418
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: it's it's actually kind of a wow. I mean, I

419
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 1: saw an image and you don't really appreciate things, you

420
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: know when you kind of talk about them in the

421
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: abstract here, but you know, all it takes. And that's

422
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: that's why crime scene photography is so bold and it's

423
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: so useful at court because you can appreciate the deposition,

424
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: the volume of blood and when you see how much

425
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: blood is found actually in the street and an adjacent

426
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: uh to the grassy area where cat was found Cat

427
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: West was found. It gives you an indication that that

428
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: the the body had been moved at some point in time,

429
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: that it was initially resting in one spot and then

430
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Speaker 1: moved to another.

431
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, when a body is found in dirt or grassy

432
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: area and there's blood that has gone into the ground,

433
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: you investigators dig up the ground.

434
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,719
Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, good point. Yeah, you're you're absolutely right, and

435
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: you will take soil samples just to and and even

436
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: if it can't necessarily give you a lot of definitive answers,

437
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: you want to capture that bit of evidence to demonstrate, uh,

438
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: certainly that there is this blood that has seeped through

439
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: to this level. Now, I want people to understand this

440
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: because I think that folks think that we can go

441
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: out to a scene and measure a volume of blood

442
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: that we see, for instance, a stain on the ground

443
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: carpet for instance, when you've got a big area of blood,

444
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: and even in like a grassy area, all we can

445
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: say we cannot measure volumes with a disbursement like that.

446
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: There there's no way, I mean, it would, It's impossible

447
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,239
Speaker 1: to come up with an accurate volume of blood. All

448
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: you can do is look at it and say, this is,

449
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: in fact blood, and this appears to be a tremendous

450
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: amount of blood that may and I've used this term before,

451
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: may be incompatible with life. So but again, to take

452
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: that measurement and say, okay, well yeah, right here, this

453
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: person lost four pints of blood, you can't definitively say

454
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: that from a scientific I don't know of anybody out

455
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: there that can. It's not like you, let's just say

456
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: it's a carpet and surface. You can't cut that piece

457
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: of carpet out and wring it out, because even if

458
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: you did that to try to measure the mouth that

459
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: that was there, there's still some that's left behind, super

460
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: saturated into this environment. But what you can determine, or

461
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: at least offer an opinion about, is that the body

462
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: had in fact been moved in some way. So when

463
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: you've got two primary spots, how did that happen? Are

464
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: you trying to position the body, are you trying to,

465
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, to get them out of the roadway, or

466
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: did the person move themselves in this kind of perry

467
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: mortem state where they're out there maybe writhing around, they

468
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: begin to bleed in one spot, they still have enough

469
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: enough indwelling life left in them so that they can

470
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: migrate to another position. And I think that that's that's

471
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: something that's interesting too, because you get an idea how

472
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: long maybe how long it took for her to die

473
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: at that location. And listen, this is in a cold

474
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: time of the year, you know when and even when

475
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: you see the images from this crime scene, the cops

476
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: are outdoors, they're wearing jackets, the grass is all brown,

477
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: and here she is out here, exposed to the elements.

478
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: She's essentially nude, laying out there and again, laying out

479
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: there for the entire world to see. Dave.

480
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: You know, Joe, when you mentioned that there were two

481
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: primary spots where the blood had had gathered, I guess

482
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: or had you know they could tell? And yeah, cool,

483
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: thank you. Uh, that was just one of the tips

484
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: of what they found at the crime scene. But the bottle,

485
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: the bottle of absence that was left next to the

486
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: body was it was placed on top of the cell phone,

487
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: and in my mind's eye, I was trying to think,

488
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: is there any way possible that I misread this and

489
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: that the bottle was laying near the phone, And because

490
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: if it's near the phone, you can't say anybody put

491
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: it there. You could have fallen. But to say that

492
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: the bottle was sitting on top of the cracked phone,

493
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: police say that Jeff West they were having an argument

494
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: over her online photos and videos and got mad and

495
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: Jeff West threw the phone out the door and that's

496
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: what caused it to crack. And then later on she

497
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: the defense, she fell and hit her head, and I

498
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: guess as she fell, the bottle of absence ended up

499
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: sitting on top of the phone. Yeah, it makes no sense. Hey,

500
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 2: I got to tell you something, man. You know what

501
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: that bottle reminds me of relative to that phone. It

502
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: actually reminds me of an exclamation wow. Where you've got

503
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: this cracked phone and you've got the base of the

504
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: bottle sitting on top of the phone. It's almost like

505
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: they're saying, Okay, here you go, you your phone and

506
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: this bottle that you know, we all believe, I believe,

507
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: and certainly the coroner believed, was weaponized. And I know

508
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: that term is used a lot, but let me just

509
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 2: kind of break this down to you because it's fascinating.

510
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: First off, Cat West had sustained what appears to have

511
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: been a single blow to the head, and you think, well,

512
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: how in the world could that actually kill somebody. Well,

513
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: she had a laceration. And just so that we can

514
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: review and go back to this and understand that lacerations

515
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: are not cuts. They lacerations arise from blunt force trauma.

516
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: And you know, uh, the lacerations he's kind of tearing

517
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: because what it is because when you applied direct pressure

518
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: to the skin with an object, the skin doesn't cut,

519
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 2: it tears, and so you're going to have these kind

520
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: of fiber strings that hang on to either side, and

521
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: that's called tissue bridging. It's one of the things that

522
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: we look for at autopsy to show the kind of stringy,

523
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: connective tissue that's still holding both. If it was a

524
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: blade that created an injury, you'd have these real what

525
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: they refer to as really neat margins where it's kind

526
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: of cut, you.

527
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: Know, where you've got a mild blade. But in this

528
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: particular case, this bottle was actually utilized to strike her

529
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: with And I would suggest that everybody because interestingly enough,

530
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: you remember those photos from that night they took a

531
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: picture they being Jeff and Kat of the bottle, and

532
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: there's a vape sitting there too. In the bottle. It's

533
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: it's actually lucid l u C I d absent and

534
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: I urge everybody. The bottle itself is green. There's a

535
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: picture of it up there that's looks like it's off

536
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: of their countertop, their island, you know, in their kitchen.

537
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: This is very, very thick class I was.

538
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: Going to say, how is it possible that it could

539
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: be used to deal a fatal blow to her head

540
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: and still be the bottle without shatting easily?

541
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: Because these bottles when you go down the neck from

542
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: the neck of the bottle and you get down to

543
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 1: the base, these things many times are very robust and

544
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: the glass is very thick, and yeah, they can. It's

545
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: not like an old Western movie where they've got breakaway

546
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: bottles are real thin and you hear glass shatter. That

547
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: doesn't happen.

548
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 2: What did the bottle show investigators? Joe did there? Was

549
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: there anything on the bottle?

550
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, And that's that's that's really kind of the

551
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 1: cool aspect of this because a tip of the cap

552
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: to the corner, the local corner, because she's trying to

553
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: she's trying to measure in her mind, how is it

554
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: that this bottle was actually used to assault cat West?

555
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: And her conclusion was this, and you gotta you're going

556
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: to have to visualize here just for a second. When

557
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 1: they when they lifted latent prints off of this bottle,

558
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: they found both cat West prints and Jeff West prints

559
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: on the bottle, and you would get the fingerprints itself

560
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: that you could probably come up with a palm print

561
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,919
Speaker 1: because glass is what we refer to as a non

562
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: porous surface. So when you leave behind a latent print,

563
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: that means unseen, those fatty lipids on the surface of

564
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: your skin leave this image. It's a negative image of

565
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: your friction ridges on your hand on the surface of

566
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: the bottle. And as the corner is trying to figure

567
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: out the dynamics of this one thing that that she

568
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: and the Crime Seen people came up with and the

569
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: detectives was that just everybody at home right now, imagine

570
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: that you've got a liquor bottle or a wine bottle

571
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: in front of you. Rotate your hand so that your

572
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: thumb is in the downward position, and you grab the

573
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: neck of the bottle. All right, The bottle itself at

574
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: that point can become a bludgeon. And so when you

575
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: rotate your hand back up the barrel of the bottle

576
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: and the bottom of the bottle becomes this object that

577
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: you can beat somebody with. And isn't it interesting that

578
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: when they actually raise the Prince Dave on the neck

579
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: of this bottle, you can clearly see that Jeff West

580
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: hand is there in that position. Now. I don't know

581
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: about you, but when I pour something from a bottle,

582
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: I don't take it and invert my hand and then

583
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: twist it around because you can't control the volume of

584
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: liquid that's coming out of the bottle. So that leads

585
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: you to this conclusion. Why in the world would he

586
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: hold that bottle that way? Well, I guess you could say,

587
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: you know, he took it out of the story, he

588
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: grabbed it that way. It's an unusual way of holding it,

589
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: and defense can argue that. But I think that the

590
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: reason that he was convicted in this particular case, and

591
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: Jeff West was in fact convicted in this case, was

592
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: this demonstration of how this bottle was used, how his

593
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: hand was positioned, and certainly this strike to cat West

594
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: heead that ended her life with their industry. I'm Joseph

595
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is bodied eyes,