WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 4 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:02.880 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:06.560 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.760 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:13.640 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.160 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:18.040 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:20.319 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, But you 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:25.919 can make your own decisions, all right, Welcome to it 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.160 could happen here, a podcast that is about fifty percent 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.240 of the time introduced well and about fifty percent of 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:33.440 the time us talking about how we're bad at introductions, 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:38.000 and today it is it is just be Christopher, but 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:43.440 with me is Hadley and Mike from Lobelia Commons, who 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.840 are here to talk about many things, one of which 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:52.240 is there is the first edition of their Earthbound Farmers Almanac. Hey, Hey, 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.320 how how are you two doing today? I heard I 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.640 heard there's maybe a thunderstorm rolling in. Yeah, we're doing 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.400 pretty good. Um, it's gonna be glad of the rain, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:06.000 I guess, yeah, yeah, it'll be good. We're gonna talk 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.760 a little bit first about Labilia Commons. So how did 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:10.520 that project start? I know, I know was something from 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.800 the beginning of the pandemic, But had you all been 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.560 working on this kind of stuff before and yeah, I 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.039 just want roasty a little bit of that. Yeah. So 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:24.880 it kind of started, um last year during the pandemic basically, UM. 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.679 Basically at the beginning of the pandemic, we had UM 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.640 that's like a surge of interest in these like kind 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:34.959 of mutual a groups UM. And the largest of which 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:38.000 that formed in New Orleans specifically, which some of us 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.640 helped form, was called New Orleans Mutual a group which 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.800 was doing like food distribution. It kind of stemmed out 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.600 of a project that was already um running like a 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.640 food share basically getting excess produce that was coming into 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.840 the port and distributing it for free in front of 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.480 like one of the gentrifying grocery stores. UM. But within 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.640 like I want to say, like a couple of weeks, UM, 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.680 there was such a surge of interest in doing that 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.600 type of like volunteer or whatever UM, where that there 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.919 was like a ton of labor to make it happen 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:16.800 and that basically meant buying tons of produce eventually, because 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.720 the ports eventually shut down and there wasn't any produce 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.320 coming from anywhere at the beginning of the the pandemic, and 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.680 that basically buying tons of produce from like costco and 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.240 that labor meant like waiting in lines for you know, 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:35.799 wrapping around entire like massive like multi city block warehouse stores. Um. 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.880 And so that was basically doing like food distribution. So 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.720 we took the opportunity to since there was so much 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.680 labor happening, that we could go and start to adjust 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.079 the question of like food production specifically and and try 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.920 and do that in interesting ways. UM. So we felt 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.080 like it was pretty important to start like experimenting and 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.640 different forms of food production and like like ways of 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:07.240 relating to food production. UM. So I mean this this 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.360 first started with like a UM, we're basically just starting 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.959 tons of seeds and delivering them all over the city, um, 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.520 just driving around from We had like one centralized nursery 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:23.560 that was run out of the warehouse um, and that 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.399 was a ton of labor. Was a really time consuming, 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.960 it was super centralized, and so we moved from that 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:36.560 into a number of other projects. UM. Short Shortly thereafter, 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:40.600 we put together like a like a collaborative mushroom production 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.360 group where we were um, getting people who had been 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:49.520 growing mushrooms and teaching folks and like doing skill shares 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:54.240 to produce oyster mushrooms out of buckets. We started doing 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:59.200 some like woodlock production of chautaukias, which has like since 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:03.720 expanded pretty dramatically. Um and yeah, just like kind of 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.600 like things that that draw people's interests like that, and 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.920 and and think about like how you can grow food 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.880 in an urban or parry urban scenario fairly interestingly and 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:21.560 like with joy um also um. You know, after this, 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.560 we we were reached out to by folks that were like, well, 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:31.080 I want to grow herbs, and rather than specifically getting 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.800 like a lot and covering it in different herbal medicines, 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:41.240 we reached out had already had folks reaching out to us. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.400 And so if someone came up with the idea of well, 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.200 let's just all grow in like our backyard stuns of 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.840 herbs and let's find herbs that already grow abundantly around 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:55.320 us to kind of collectively share the experience of harvesting 0:04:55.640 --> 0:05:01.480 and um and turning those into medicine. Um. And so 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.480 now there's like this herb Commons group that the labor 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:09.159 is distributed, it's distributed geographically. Um, but there's these like 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.039 meet ups where they're bulk curbs are given up, Yeah, 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:18.640 given out, just like in a canal space and um. Yeah, 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.800 like there's skill shares happening there and and so there's 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:25.880 kind of some community being built around that. Um that 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.400 that happens in a very decentralized manner. Yeah, it's definitely 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.800 very decentralized. There are working groups that are part of 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.560 Lobelia Commons that I'm like not entirely sure what they're 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.320 doing in any given day or you know, what's going on. 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.000 I'm involved in like a couple particular projects within it UM. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.520 And I think that it's really flexible for folks who 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:47.520 are trying to get involved. They can kind of be 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:51.560 involved at whatever level they want. Like, um, if somebody 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.840 doesn't want to go to a bunch of garden work 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:55.960 days or a bunch of meetings or something, which you 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:57.640 know are have been a great way for us to 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.440 like see each other and see our friends during the 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.400 pandemic and stuff, is to get together for these work 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.240 days outdoors or whatnot. But if somebody wants to just 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:08.719 like do nothing but sprout plants at their own house 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:12.080 and then somebody will come pick up those seedlings and 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.200 and you know bring them to one of our decentralized 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.440 nursery spots. That's great. Um. That's one of the other 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.880 kind of projects we have we call the decentralized nursery. 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.239 And that's kind of like just something that people already 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.960 do at a certain time of year. You know, gardeners 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.720 will regularly start more plants than they need and then 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:32.960 just kind of give them away to friends and neighbors 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:35.880 and stuff. And we tried to just make it a 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.560 little bit more of an intentional thing. Um. And this 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.000 was also kind of growing out of like at the 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.240 very beginning of the pandemic, and we were actually doing 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.880 seedling deliveries to people, which made sense of that time, 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.960 but it was like very labor intensive. Um. So we 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.240 kind of moved to this model of having just like 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:57.000 free stands in front of houses on street corners in 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.160 different places. Um. You know, there's already like a huch 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.240 or free fridges around New Orleans and things like that, 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:04.640 and so this is kind of like the free plant 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:06.960 version of that. And it's really easy for somebody to 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.400 just set one up. Um. And then that kind of 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.480 also allows us to like work on this other aspect 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.240 of of decentralizing food production, because like that's definitely one 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.680 of our goals, right is to like not have a 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.960 tiny percentage of the population be the only ones who 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.000 know how to grow food and doing it under the 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.040 control of a tiny number of corporations that own all 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:30.640 the land. And you know, obviously we're trying to get 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:32.880 away from that food system, and so one of the 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.040 ways we can think about doing that is finding ways 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:40.640 to really decentralize some of the skills that are um, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.280 that are necessary. So for example, like if somebody's growing 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:48.240 avocados for our nurseries, UM, the thing about growing an 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:53.080 avocado from a pit actually is that, uh, that tree 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:58.880 probably won't produce fruit. It actually needs to be grafted. UM. 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.360 So we can have people starting pits, and then we're 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:06.640 also you know, sharing the knowledge of how to graph 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:11.680 these things, UM, because we kind of like see a 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.480 future in which a lot more people, um will need 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.320 to be involved in food production. But also, like Mike 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.480 was saying, like we want this to be not like 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.720 a job that it feels like people have, but this 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.440 joyous kind of thing that's just a part of everyday life. Yeah, 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:31.400 what are the other things that I was I was 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.920 interested in is you know, so so part of part 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:39.760 of what I think the beginning of the Earth Performance 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:44.280 Romanac is about is talking about how I guess people 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.200 people have this tendency to sort of focus on climate 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.600 change is just like the only sort of climate thing 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:52.959 that's happening. And you know, I mean there's obviously the Yeah, 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.680 there's there's a bunch of sort of stuff that is 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.000 climate change. But isn't the weather that are sort of 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.960 you know, things like the phosphor cycle, things like the 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.080 nitrogen cycle that are breaking. But simultaneously, I think it's 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:08.600 it's also true that you know that that that kind 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.400 of stuff and this is also something that's that's talked 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.360 about in there is is going to have a large 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.160 impact both on sort of like even just what what 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.960 kind of biomas exist in the in a very short term. 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.600 And you know, another product of that is, you know 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.160 it is that the sort of increasing rate of storms. 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:26.760 And I was wondering if you all could talk a 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.920 bit about what happened after Ida and how both just 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:33.760 sort of in the short term in the long term 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.120 that the sort of the increase of just hurricanes and 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:38.959 I hesitate to call natural disasters because you know that 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.200 there's there's a whole thing about how these disasters are 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.679 sort of manufactured in a lot of ways, but how 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.640 how that's been affecting how y'all think are sort of 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.040 thinking about and working with these kind of mutual aid 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:55.520 projects and food production. Yeah, so I think with IDA, 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.719 it's kind of complicated because, UM, you can almost look 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:02.880 at look at it as like two different storms, um, 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.320 because what happened in New Orleans versus what happened and 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.760 say like um Homa or the river parishes, Um, these 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:14.000 areas that are you know, generally south and west of 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:18.400 New Orleans. UM are are are kind of like two 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.880 different uh animals in some ways, like what happened in 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.559 New Orleans specifically relates to infrastructure. So like what you're saying, 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:31.240 like the kind of quote unquote natural disasters thing, that's um, 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.880 you know, that's a pretty commonplace way of looking I 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.680 mean it's not a very radical um conception that like 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:41.120 these aren't natural disasters wherever the disasters is created. As 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.480 soon as UM there was the attempt to create a 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.480 colonial New Orleans in the first place. UM, so this 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.920 became honestly part of like national discourse as a result 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.800 of Katrina, most famously because of the Army cord engineers 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:01.640 failure UM teven five and UM. So what happened this 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:06.440 year UM was with with Hurricane Ida. Was one of 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:11.920 the main transmission towers for the the Energy Energy Corporation 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.360 in New Orleans is called energy that outside of the 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.320 Gulf South aren't familiar with. So the Entergy tower fell 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.160 into the Mississippi River, and you had that happening at 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.199 the same time that thousands of power lines fell down. 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.520 The power lines are are are on poles and very 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.720 prone to getting knocked down even just during the during 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.080 any day of the week, UM. And so there wasn't 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.600 actually really much flooding UM that was happening. It was 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.400 it was primarily wind damage. So that the tower falls 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.920 into the river, power lines down. You had something like 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:48.040 I believe fifty five barges in the Port of South 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.920 Louisiana falling into their falling off their moorings and floating 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.319 around just crashing into things, just crash, just like there's 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.920 like several ferries that connected east and west banks of 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.959 the city. UM those fell off the worrings. So so 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:05.000 like the physical infrastructure of the place and and how 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.760 that relates to beyond New Orleans is. New Orleans is 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.839 located at the very um southern reach of the Mississippi 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.920 Rivers port of south southern Louisiana, which is like a 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.040 fifty five mile port I believe a fifty two port 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.840 um that processes like six of all U S grain 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.800 going to exports. So it's like a massive, really really 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:32.200 important piece of American capitalist infrastructure. So that when when 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.959 those boats follow their mornings, it's not like, oh this 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:40.640 like whatever quaint like vyou problem, it's a very serious 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:46.040 imperial problem. UM. But so for for the average person 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.839 living in New Orleans, UM, this looked like I think 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.480 I think it ended up being for most people around 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.360 a week and a half without power, which if anyone's 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.560 lived even with air conditioning in New Orleans for a summer, UM, 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.960 it's extremely difficult to live uh here during the summer. UM. 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.160 It's that it's obviously not impossible when we have modern amenities, 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.000 but when you're when you're without those, when you're without 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.880 the refrigerator, when we throughout without new freezer air conditioning, 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:18.719 it's it's really really really hot. Um. You know, so 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.640 that's what was happening in New Orleans. There was some 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.600 some damage to people's rooms, there was some you know, 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:30.280 fairly fairly substantial damage to the structures. But what happened 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:35.959 to the west, in cities like Laplace, UM, which is 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:42.280 about thirty miles west of New Orleans. UM, that's where 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:46.000 you started to see like very severe flooding, very severe 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:53.280 UM damage to structures, places like Homa, Lafitte, um Portchean, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.800 all these places that are closer to the coast. That's 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.000 where you saw the real heavy destruction. So a lot 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.959 of people have been framing let's been down the Bayou 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.960 and in the river parishes, as we would say, um 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:09.120 as like those places Katrina, because it's the destruction was 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.080 was so total in that way. UM. So the way 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.160 that you relate to UM, that type of again quote 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.840 unquote disaster is much is much different, whereas what happened 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:25.480 in New Orleans, UM is more of a continuation of 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.080 of what could be called like a series of apocalypses 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.360 that have been happening since colonization. UM. I think that's 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.360 a that's an interesting point also that that that I 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.800 want to talk about a little bit about US grain 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.360 exports because I think that that's another part of this 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.800 whole food system question that is important on a scale 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.520 that I don't think people understands, like you know, it's 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.800 just for furvent background for listeners. So when when all 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.280 of the sort of giant like free trade agreements went 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.360 into effect, um, you know, so so the free agerments 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:01.960 are like, okay, you're you're not supposed to be able 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:06.280 to like have government subsidies of agricultural products. And there's 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.840 there's a couple of carve outs that were put into 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.320 this now almost all of them. There are exceptions for 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.920 there's a couple of like weird manufacturing stuff in like 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.200 Italy and Germany that have carve outs. And the other 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.000 big one is that the US government is allowed to 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.920 just do enormous levels of agricultural subsidies that no one 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.880 else like really in the world is allowed to like 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.000 match or I mean do it. Like you know, you 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.120 know if if if you try to have grand subsidies, right, 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:32.800 it's like you know, the I M F will come 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:34.720 after you, like you know, you're not allowed to do it. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.160 But then you know somethings that you have the US 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.200 producing all of this like this. I mean it it's 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:43.800 it's not it's not really cheap, right, but it's it's 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.520 you know, this enormously subsidized grain that nobody can actually 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.360 really compete with. And I think that's that's like an 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:54.520 interesting I was wondering what, like, how how how do 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:56.840 you guys think about that in terms of you know, 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.720 try trying to do decentralized I guess, a your culture 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.360 in a place that's to a large extent this sort 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.720 of like conduit of grain to the rest of the world, 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:11.520 but in a way that like also inhibits those places 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.840 from actually you know, having their own kind of like 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.880 essentialized a your culture. UM. I mean I can speak 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.600 a little bit about like what that kind of does 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:24.680 to our context of like making it, like especially when 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.880 I see people in the kind of organic gardening farming 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:32.120 world trying to go on this model of like, oh, 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:37.160 we're gonna make you know, regenerative agriculture profitable, and we're 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:44.120 gonna make it somehow compete with conventional agriculture. UM. And 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.080 I guess I just don't really think that that is 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.280 feasible in that in that terrain. Like you know, if 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.960 if we're trying to compete on that same terrain, and 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:58.080 we're competing with these absurd subsidies. It definitely just the 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.440 same problem that you see around the world world where 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.440 people aren't able to afford to grow their own thing 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.480 because there's no way they can they can sell it 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.920 as cheaply as as us grain. Um. So I think 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.280 it's more important to sort of like look at like 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.520 there's there's a piece in the almanac actually that sort 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.760 of gets into this this issue of like, well, are 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:22.200 we really growing enough food in this regenerative way, Like 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.360 you know, we don't even hardly grow that many grains 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:27.360 or that many high calorie things. A lot of things 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.479 are just focused on vegetables and things like that. And like, 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.080 I think that's a really important critique. And also I 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.080 think that the way out of it isn't just gonna 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:41.159 be us trying harder or something or um Like the 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:45.000 future iron vision for us, like really changing the food 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:50.760 system kind of involves like really large scale expropriation of 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.480 that land where the grain is being produced and of 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:58.560 those huge machineries, those huge like satellite powered or satellite 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.800 directed you know, allows and tractors and whatnot that are 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.240 that are doing this stuff UM. And so like when 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.520 I'm trying to think about like the impact that a 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.240 food project is having, or like a food justice project, 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:14.960 I don't try to think like we're trying to replace 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.320 uh aggro business on its own terms. I think like 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:24.679 we're trying to be an ally or an aid to 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.840 any kind of antagonistic sort of social movement that actually 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:30.800 is going to create the conditions where like we can 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.520 all get together and start to actually address these problems 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:39.480 UM without being hindered by you know, things like private property. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:41.720 So I guess that that that that's a good point 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.040 to to jump into the Almanac from. I think, yeah, 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.080 do do you want to just introduce the project a 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:48.520 little bit and then we can talk about some of 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.280 the stuff in it that I thought was really interesting. Yeah, 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.119 So the Almanac kind of came out of like a 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.000 little bit of a like partially is like a joke. 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.840 You know, we're like everyone gets the uh UM Almanac 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.560 and kind of you know, it doesn't really relate too 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.200 much to UM like most of us what we would 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.920 be growing UM. So we had we had posited something 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.280 like different, you know, something that that does kind of 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.000 grapple with some of the questions of you know, growing 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.760 food and kind of the conditions we live in. Maybe 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:24.479 you can speak kind of yeah, I can even just 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:26.919 I'll actually just read the back of it, because I 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.280 think it speaks to it pretty well. This is a 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.520 farmer's almanac for the end of the world. Growing food 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:34.879 used to be a lot more straightforward, when you plant 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.160 your okra at the same time every year like your 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.200 grandpa did. Now we've got to be ready for anything, 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.560 late spring freezes, freak heat waves that bring plants out 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:49.000 of dormancy, to early fire season longer every year, the 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.280 polar vortex, and if that wasn't enough, we've also got 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.120 to contend with the fallout from breakages in the global 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.480 supply chain. When millions of gallons of milk get poured 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.720 down the drain and mountain of potatoes are left to rock. 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.800 It's a world that calls for a new kind of 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:09.440 farmers almanac. Today's crisis has roots in the earliest moments 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.800 of land theft against Native people's, a process that has 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:17.480 continued alongside hundreds of years of slavery and colonization. The 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.280 way forward out of this mess will mean grappling with 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.720 the crimes of the past. As well as charting a 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:27.520 new course guided by black and Indigenous knowledge, creative experimentation 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:32.560 and food production, and paying attention across generational and species divides. 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.800 So I mean, what one like very concrete example of 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.159 like how this farmer's almanac is different than what you 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:42.520 might see just from the standard almanac is um, you know, 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.760 we we don't have like oh, it's it's May, it's 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.560 time to plant corn or whatever, because I mean, first 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.119 of all, that that was never that useful as for 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.600 a publication that's meant to be used across this vast continent. 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.640 You know, it's going to be different everywhere, um, where 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.439 you're going to plant things at which time? Um. But 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:05.080 also like those standard resources that we would go to 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:07.959 like for here, for the southeast for example, or wherever, 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.840 Like if you're looking at something that was made a 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:14.080 few decades ago, it's not going to actually be accurate 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.720 or it's going to give you undo certainty about where 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.159 the seasons line up and things like that. So you know, 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:22.440 instead of telling people exactly when to plant their seeds, 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.640 we have a chart that has the actual German nation 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.840 temperatures of like all the major annual vegetables that people 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:33.320 would want to grow. UM. And then we also have 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:38.680 like the monthly notes from this local farm in New Orleans, 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:41.760 so you know, located in this area. You can you 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:43.560 can also get a really precise view of like oh 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:47.040 they were planning this, then they were harvesting this. Then. Yeah. 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.600 I think that we hope to make something that was 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.399 you know, our our original focus was something that was 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.080 specific to New Orleans in the region, UM, you know, 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.399 in the Gulf South and the Southeast generally. UM, because 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.960 we're so aware of the you know, the differences or 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.320 what have you between growing through here and growing food 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:10.920 in Ohio or something or whatever, and we all get 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.760 these same seeds you know, out of Walmart or Lows 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:16.320 or whatever and try and grow the exact same plants 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:20.000 all over the place to trying to um hone in 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:23.840 on some of that local perspective. UM with me with 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.639 in terms of like getting some like folk tradition, getting 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:33.440 some um, you know, anecdotal evidence about you know, things 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:37.119 that worked with things that people are trying UM. And 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:40.879 I think that that was that was fairly successful. UM. 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.560 I think I think aside that we weren't really expecting 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:47.840 as much was just the amount of national and even 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:52.600 international UM kind of grasp that it had UM. I 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:56.520 think a lot of people like could could use something 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:01.639 like this in their area UM. And it's fostered some 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:05.840 really interesting connections for people that are experimenting in New York, 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.520 for people that are are growing things or thinking about 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:11.959 maybe UM food systems and how they relate to prisons 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:16.600 in California or UM even you know, as far away 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:21.320 as Brazil. UM. It's kind of began to foster a 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:26.440 connection between Labelia Commons and a group called the BOGUS, 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:30.160 which translates roughly to like the Web of People's UM 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:35.080 in Brazil, so called Brazil UM, where it's kind of 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:40.840 like experimental agroecology project that's very specific UM specifically focused 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:46.560 on UM, you know, sovereignty, land stewardship, kind of following 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:50.080 a little bit in the tradition of the Landless Workers movement. 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.119 If anyone's familiar with mst UM, it's kind of following 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:57.040 in that tradition a bit UM, but is heavily stewarded 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:02.119 by Black and Indigenous knowledges. Yes, so I was something 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.120 I think of a like a kind of pleasant surprise 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:06.760 out of it. Yeah, I thought that was that was 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:11.240 really interesting way of looking at it, because I feel 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:16.439 like there's this tendency in the US too, you know 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:18.119 when when when when we talk about sort of a 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:20.160 relationship to the land, which which is something that comes 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.480 up a lot in in the sort of essays that 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:25.239 are are in the All Neck is about, you know, 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:27.160 like there there there there's a piece that I related 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:30.040 to a lot, which is about someone from Guam trying 0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:34.159 to sort of deal with like I mean particularly like 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:37.360 legacies or Japanese imperialism and being driven from their home. 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:40.160 And it was like, oh, hey, look like this is yeah, 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:42.200 you know is this is this is someone who experienced 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:44.440 which when Japan went west. And I was like, oh yeah, 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:46.320 my family had this basically very similar thing when they 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:50.880 went east. And you know, but but there's there's I think, yeah, 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:54.840 and I think it's very smartly you get you get 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.360 to a point very quickly where you're trying to grapple 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:01.320 with you know, how do how do you build connections 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:05.040 to land? But then also how how does that work 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.160 in a context in you know, in a context that's 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:10.720 basically defined by southern colonialism and defined by by this 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:14.159 sort by this occupation. And I think looking at the 0:25:14.240 --> 0:25:15.639 MSc looking at a lot of stuff that happened in 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:19.320 Latin America. I mean there there's very similar to what 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:22.920 you guys were talking about. In Brazil, there was a 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:26.520 huge movement like this that was indigenous land recormation sort 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:30.280 of agrocology in in Columbia for example too in the nineties, 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:34.399 and they they run into this problem of you know, 0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:36.080 there's there's a civil war going on in Columbia and 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:38.159 they a lot of them getting murdered by sort of 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:41.760 state paramilitary is in the army. But I think it's 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:45.080 it's a it's a really interesting way of of looking 0:25:45.119 --> 0:25:48.159 at what what does what does lambak actually look like? 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:50.680 And how how you deal with interacting with land. And also, yeah, 0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:53.639 the lands workers in particular, they use a lot of methods, 0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:55.920 but you know they actually do just take a like 0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:59.359 an enormous amount of land like back from this state 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:02.280 and sort of back from corporate things. So I'm interested 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:06.159 in how we all started talking to a lot of 0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:07.639 these a lot of the Brazilian groups, and how that 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:10.600 sort of like that that perspective is shaped the way 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:14.240 that like this, this this whole sort of project turned out. Um, 0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:21.360 So we were specifically to dispose UM some previous connections 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:26.200 that some of us had UM in Brazil had when 0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:28.560 talking about what we were doing and just kind of 0:26:28.640 --> 0:26:32.800 keeping up an exchange of uh, you know, just like 0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:35.160 kind of updates from from the Gulf, and they would 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:40.320 send updates from things going on down there. They kind 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:44.840 of do the connection for us and put us towards them. 0:26:45.040 --> 0:26:49.560 And I reached out to day Dispobos and was like, hey, 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:52.879 we're you know, we're doing this thing, and I, you know, 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:58.199 and inspired by what you're doing personally and UM, you know, 0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:02.800 I I'd be curious to see what what what kind 0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:09.040 of relationship whatever we can foster. And they took it UM, 0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:12.560 you know, also with with some inspiration, seeing that this 0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:18.080 very clear connection in terms of relationship with land historically, 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:25.240 this possession historically between the two continents across the Caribbean UM, 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:32.560 the implementation on a wide scale of plantation, monoculture UM. 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:37.400 It that was fueled entirely by slavery and genocide UM. 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:42.280 And And I think that having that kind of like 0:27:42.760 --> 0:27:46.240 shared common history, I think gives us a good bedrock 0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:49.800 to like UM exchange notes about where we are now 0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:56.200 kind of multiplied by the fact that the way that um, yeah, 0:27:56.240 --> 0:28:01.080 so called emancipation happened here versus in Brazil, radically different 0:28:01.359 --> 0:28:07.200 UM the UM like the for instance, the existence of 0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:10.520 PET or the Workers Party in Brazil being such a 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:14.800 force after the dictatorship and having that like strong populist 0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:18.919 movement UM that was you know, rooted a very traditional 0:28:19.000 --> 0:28:23.600 left UM that that fueled MST. Well, you don't have 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:26.359 anything like that here. You know that that happens at 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:30.159 the same time that here, Actually the workers movement in 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:32.360 the US was was kind of getting defeated, I mean 0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:37.159 them up in the seventies. So with respect to like 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:42.360 UM land back specifically, UM, you know, I don't know 0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:43.920 if you I don't know if you will see it 0:28:43.960 --> 0:28:48.600 in the same forms. I doubt at least obviously would 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:52.160 totally be there cheering it on. And I'm happy to 0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:54.240 see it, UM. But I think it looks a lot 0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:57.280 more like during the uprising last year. You saw in Chicago, 0:28:57.400 --> 0:29:01.920 for instance, UM, the when when like the trains were 0:29:01.920 --> 0:29:06.160 being expropriated as they were moving, taking goods out of 0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:09.880 these box cars, UM, and just expropriate in tons of goods, 0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:12.720 taking you know, taking goods that would normally be going 0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:16.520 you know, just commodities normally going to court just cut 0:29:16.520 --> 0:29:19.240 off in the middle of line or you know, UM, 0:29:19.280 --> 0:29:23.560 these these these these kind of like more um ah, 0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:29.800 I don't want to say small scale, but um focus 0:29:29.840 --> 0:29:33.920 more on like infrastructural choke points rather than necessarily um, 0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:39.320 like having thousands of people swarming uh you know, a 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:44.800 massive industrial agriculture UM set up in Kansas or something. 0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:47.480 You know. Yeah, yeah, I think it's great to imagine that. 0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:51.640 I think I really love sharing the history of MST 0:29:52.080 --> 0:29:54.160 with people in America who have never heard it before, 0:29:54.200 --> 0:29:56.040 because I think it's a great way to kind of 0:29:56.400 --> 0:30:00.760 expand the imaginary of like what is possible, like what 0:30:00.960 --> 0:30:04.280 kind of actions are actually at our disposal like it 0:30:04.360 --> 0:30:06.680 and it truly is not, you know, look exactly like that. 0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:09.480 And I think it's also really important for us to 0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:14.680 like not forget a lot of the similar histories here, 0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:19.240 like um. Part of the inspiration for the Almanac or 0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:21.479 what kind of drove us to to make it was 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:23.680 some of us were doing a reading group of this 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:29.000 book called Freedom Farmers that's about kind of like various 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:34.480 uh um, black projects in the South for food autonomy 0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:37.640 after slavery, and a lot of it is about Fannie 0:30:37.680 --> 0:30:41.920 Let Hammer and UM Freedom Farms, and you know, we've 0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:44.920 we're definitely inspired for some of the little Bilia things 0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:48.960 by UM Fannie Leehammer's pig bank, which was a really 0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:51.640 cool thing where they just like started with a bunch 0:30:51.640 --> 0:30:54.120 of pigs and if you were in the community, like 0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:56.960 you get you get your pigs from, you get a 0:30:57.000 --> 0:30:59.600 couple of piglets from the pig bank, and then the 0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.240 inch risked on that is a couple of years later 0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:03.960 you got to give them a couple of pigs because 0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:06.040 you're producing your own pigs, and so the pig bank 0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:09.240 is like self sustaining. UM. And another thing from that 0:31:09.280 --> 0:31:13.320 book that was inspiring to us was UM reading about 0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:20.760 George Washington Carver's public education projects out of Tuskegee University 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:25.200 that were UM just really inspiring in terms of like 0:31:25.520 --> 0:31:27.520 he was doing all of his own kind of independent 0:31:27.640 --> 0:31:31.520 research about soils and pests and all these different crops 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:35.280 and everything and creating these farm bulletins that were then 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:40.040 being distributed h to black farmers throughout the region to 0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:43.840 kind of, you know, share better practices, and a lot 0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:47.160 of the stuff was like agro ecology before people had 0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:49.160 that word like he was very far ahead of his 0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:52.400 time in terms of understanding soil dynamics and and passed 0:31:52.440 --> 0:31:56.240 and things like that. Um, so yeah, we we definitely 0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:58.680 try to try to lift up all that history as 0:31:58.760 --> 0:32:01.920 much as possible. Yeah, I guess what Whene're the ether. 0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:05.760 Thing I thought was very interesting that you alluded to 0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:10.240 briefly in this was Yeah, because there's there's a session 0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:13.640 of this is talking about food in prisons, and I 0:32:13.640 --> 0:32:15.440 wonder if you could talk about that part a little 0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:17.200 bit more, because that's a connection that I that I 0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:21.480 really don't think it's drawn very often here on me 0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:23.480 flip to the piece, right, I mean one of the 0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:25.520 things that it's kind of hard to describe. I do 0:32:25.680 --> 0:32:28.560 love the visual that that we have for this piece, 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:31.200 but yeah, I mean it's just like the it's a 0:32:31.240 --> 0:32:35.240 striking image, you know. It's got like, um, in the center, 0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:38.960 there's a picture of a really high density chicken operation 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:41.200 and there's somebody wearing sort of like a full tibex 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:44.920 suit suit and just walking through this like massive herd 0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:47.640 of chickens. And then that's super imposed over this just 0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:51.719 like really nasty looking close up photo of a prison 0:32:51.800 --> 0:32:56.560 food draining and just like the canned veggies and the everything. 0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:59.520 And like, I mean, I don't I've been to jail 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:02.520 a number of times, and the food is always terrible. 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:04.320 It's always one of the things that you talk about 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:06.440 or you can bond over or whatever. It's just how 0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:09.480 bad the food is. But I think people who haven't 0:33:09.480 --> 0:33:15.520 experienced that don't really think about just how much systematic 0:33:15.760 --> 0:33:18.520 like starvation is going on and mannutrition is going on, 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:20.840 where it's like the only way you can possibly survive 0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:23.960 in these places is spending a bunch of extra money 0:33:23.960 --> 0:33:26.720 on commissary to get stuff that also isn't healthy, but 0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:29.720 at least you can get more calories and stuff. Um. 0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:33.040 And like I think that that there's like a lot 0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:37.400 of parallels between kind of the structure of prisons and 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:41.880 the structure of our of our food system. Um. I 0:33:41.920 --> 0:33:44.080 mean one example that I used to talk about this 0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:49.600 is like the banana plantation, um, where like the you know, 0:33:49.640 --> 0:33:52.920 we have an entire variety of banana that's like basically 0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:56.719 stanct or it's it can't be grown commercially anymore because 0:33:57.080 --> 0:34:03.200 the banana industry, you know, functions by putting like warehousing 0:34:03.240 --> 0:34:07.160 these banas together and these like super tight plantation formations, 0:34:07.600 --> 0:34:10.239 you know, which really only makes sense if you're just 0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:12.600 trying to maximize your profits and get as much out 0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:15.600 of a small space as possible. But what it does 0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:18.400 is is the exact same thing that happens in prisons 0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:22.319 during COVID or with any kind of uh, you know, 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:27.320 pathogen like tuberculosis or whatever. Um. You know, it's it's 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:30.760 like the trees are so close together that the fungus 0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:33.560 spread so rapidly, and then they're also like pumping all 0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:36.840 these things into to fight that, and they're actually breeding 0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:40.400 super funguses all the time. And at some point the 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:42.920 banana that we eat now is going to also stop 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:47.319 existing because of this. Um. And I guess I don't 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:49.920 know if I can draw anything deeper out of those 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:52.960 similarities than the fact that there's this like overriding logic 0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:57.520 of capitalism that is just like has no respect for 0:34:58.120 --> 0:35:02.360 these beings, like whether it is a person or a minatory, 0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:07.880 Like it's all just commodities and things to be warehouse. 0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:13.719 Um yeah, I think. UM to add on that, I 0:35:13.760 --> 0:35:15.680 mean this this is the piece in there which is 0:35:15.719 --> 0:35:19.080 called the struggle for good food across walls. Um, I 0:35:19.120 --> 0:35:23.440 think it does a nice job of talking about how like, um, 0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:25.600 you know, if we're talking about quote unquote food, food 0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:30.600 justice or what have you, like, UM like, how can 0:35:30.640 --> 0:35:32.880 we talk about that on the outside of all forgetting 0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:38.839 about just the most deplorable UM food conditions on the 0:35:38.960 --> 0:35:44.040 entire continent. UM. And I think that that it's it's 0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:46.359 really good at that. I think I would really like 0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:51.120 to see in the next year all the ways that um, 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:55.840 the imaginaries of of inmates kind of go in in 0:35:56.000 --> 0:36:01.040 like attack that UM the like the lodge of prison 0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:04.239 food being completely deplorable. Like you know, you have all 0:36:04.360 --> 0:36:08.200 these forms of creativity of like making tortillas and stuff 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:12.279 and like doing wild things with like stuff that's in 0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:17.560 the commissary, you know, contraband kind of ways of of 0:36:17.600 --> 0:36:20.200 making kind of life a little bit more livable in there. 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:24.120 And and if anyone has um spent time in jail 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:27.719 or prison or or kept up a relationship with someone 0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:31.040 on the inside or what have you, UM, everyone has 0:36:31.040 --> 0:36:35.880 a story about a way of UM making making food 0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:39.440 more UM interesting and joyful, and and like there becomes 0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:43.200 whole cultures around them. One of the things that we're 0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:48.480 starting to do in one of the farm spaces we 0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:53.200 work with outside of the city is is UM through 0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:59.080 pre existing relationships with inmates in Angola State Penitentiary in Louisiana, which, 0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:03.400 for those that don't know, UM was a plantation civil 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:06.520 War happens two years after the Civil War, it becomes 0:37:06.520 --> 0:37:11.120 a Louisiana State pen Potentiary. It's still a plantation. It's 0:37:11.160 --> 0:37:14.640 you know, uh this many times the descendants of the 0:37:14.680 --> 0:37:19.800 same enslaved folks who were on that plantation prior UM 0:37:19.840 --> 0:37:21.440 and you know it's a it's a guard on a 0:37:21.480 --> 0:37:25.080 horseback riding around while these UM folks pulling cotton, UM 0:37:25.400 --> 0:37:29.400 and so so through some of these relationships with some 0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:33.120 of these inmates who are m like kind of uh 0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:40.000 clandestine organizers, UM, we're starting to come up with ways 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:43.760 to like grow food collaboratively with folks that are behind 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:46.600 walls and and find ways to get food to either 0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:50.160 their family or maybe sell and get that into their commissary. 0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:54.800 Kind of just like trying to um spitball ideas about 0:37:55.239 --> 0:38:03.399 like different ways of producing food despite people's incarceration. Yeah, 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:05.680 that that seems that seems like a really I guess 0:38:05.719 --> 0:38:07.759 we're you can really say is a necessary way for 0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:10.040 for this sort of food politics to go if it's 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:13.879 going to actually deal with sort of both the land 0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:16.640 conditions and the conditions of just you know the fact 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:18.400 that we haven't in that there's still just an enormous 0:38:18.400 --> 0:38:21.759 slafe population the US. And I think that kind of 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:25.640 resistance in creativity, I think is how Yeah y'all, are 0:38:25.719 --> 0:38:29.560 y'll on the right track with with pushing it that way? Yeah? 0:38:29.600 --> 0:38:31.719 That this is this is sort of a bleique note 0:38:31.719 --> 0:38:33.960 to end on, I think, but I don't know. I 0:38:33.960 --> 0:38:36.080 think it's yeah, it's a it's a it's a hopeful 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:40.560 one too, And where can people find but basically all 0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:43.200 of your's work. And then also you talked a little 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:45.480 bit about trying to get submissions for everything, So can 0:38:45.480 --> 0:38:47.239 you talk a little bit about how that how that's 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:53.560 gonna work. Yeah, Um, so we're it's it's kind of 0:38:53.560 --> 0:38:55.600 been on hold a little bit because we've been like 0:38:56.640 --> 0:39:01.520 very active after IDA. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, trying 0:39:01.560 --> 0:39:05.640 to make sure our people are all good and supporting 0:39:06.080 --> 0:39:10.640 um in various places UM kind of doing like different 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:13.719 workshops and stuff. And and because that our focus isn't 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:16.840 just on food production, it's also like neighborhood survival or whatever. 0:39:16.920 --> 0:39:21.560 So we've been UM working with an old UM neighbor 0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:25.440 of one of ours who UM. You know, she's already 0:39:25.440 --> 0:39:28.680 been kind of doing this mutual aid stuff you know 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.680 by any other name for decades, you know, letting people 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:35.360 stay in their house, UM, feeding people. UM. She's like 0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:37.319 kind of like a block MoMA and she's really one 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:41.440 of the last UM black home others in her neighborhood. 0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:45.440 So we're really trying to like help her achieve some autonomy. 0:39:45.520 --> 0:39:48.000 One way that we've been putting it is UM when 0:39:48.040 --> 0:39:50.799 all the airbnbs like lose their power because they're still 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:54.640 reliant on the colonial world, Well, miss Elfie I could 0:39:54.680 --> 0:39:56.480 still have her lights on because she's going to be 0:39:56.600 --> 0:40:00.600 totally autonomous from the system. So UM, I think that 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:03.520 that link is on our Instagram page if you click 0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:06.600 on the like UM the link or whatever, there's a 0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:10.319 go fund me that UM is UH where we've been 0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:12.239 putting a lot of our effort and really working with 0:40:12.280 --> 0:40:15.120 her on UM and then also like growing growing a 0:40:15.200 --> 0:40:18.480 garden like adjacent to her so that the people in 0:40:18.480 --> 0:40:21.640 that community are are food as as food autonomous as 0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:24.480 UM as we can get we can we can put 0:40:24.480 --> 0:40:28.240 it in the show notes yeah, and the the handle 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:35.640 for both Twitter and Instagram is at Lobilia Commons and 0:40:35.920 --> 0:40:39.680 the Almanac. You can find links to the Almanac pdf 0:40:39.760 --> 0:40:42.400 on through either of those um if you want to 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:45.120 just read it for free, and then UM there's also 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:49.799 copies for sale on emergent Goods dot com. And for 0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:53.399 um submissions, I mean, yeah, like I said, we've been 0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:55.800 really behind on this just because of all this stuff, 0:40:55.840 --> 0:41:00.120 But for submissions, we're really um looking for folks um 0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:03.440 to contribute. Throw us a pitch. UM. I think if 0:41:03.440 --> 0:41:05.400 you've seen the first one or I've listened to this, 0:41:05.480 --> 0:41:08.319 you probably get something of an idea of what we're 0:41:08.360 --> 0:41:11.960 looking for UM, and we're happy to like talk to 0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:16.120 people about, like, you know, different ideas and bear with 0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:18.359 us if we're a little slower to spawn because we're 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:22.000 you know, kind of still waist deep right now. But yes, 0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:26.240 submission for deadlines is the end of October UM, and 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:30.280 you can email ideas or pitches or whatever to Lobelia 0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:34.880 Commons at proton mail dot com. And lastly, the project 0:41:35.040 --> 0:41:39.520 that I'm most focused on is the front Yard Orchard Initiative, 0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:44.759 where basically we just propagate as many fruit trees as 0:41:44.800 --> 0:41:48.239 cheaply as possible. Things that are really easy for us 0:41:48.360 --> 0:41:53.239 to grow from cuttings like figs, mulberries, things they're easy 0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:59.440 to grow from seed, like papaya, maringa, pecan um. And 0:41:59.520 --> 0:42:02.520 we basically just have some nice flyers that we put 0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:05.080 up and we advertise a bit on social media and 0:42:05.120 --> 0:42:08.759 also just kind of go door to door in neighborhoods 0:42:08.760 --> 0:42:12.319 where we already have gardens or connections and offer to 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:15.160 give free fruit trees out to people, and we're also 0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:17.319 happy to plant them for people and then kind of 0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:20.000 offer a consultation on how to take care of it 0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:23.279 or whatever. And also if folks want to hear some 0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:28.080 of the pieces from the Earthbound Farmers Almanac read by 0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:31.239 some of the authors and then some interviews with those authors, 0:42:31.840 --> 0:42:35.920 you can check out this podcast called Partisan Gardens that 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:37.880 did a really good episode that's kind of like an 0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:42.280 audio exploration of the Almanac. Cool. Yeah, people, people definitely 0:42:42.320 --> 0:42:45.520 definitely go read the Almanac. Is it's it's it's a 0:42:45.560 --> 0:42:47.359 it's a really good it's a really good piece of work. 0:42:48.200 --> 0:42:51.040 Um yeah, thank thank you too so much for joining us. 0:42:51.680 --> 0:43:04.360 Thank you for you suddenly wake up to the loud 0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:08.000 growling of a tactical vehicle must have left your window open. 0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:10.680 A few streets away, you can hear the troopers doing 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:14.319 their morning patrols. This is closing in on week four 0:43:14.440 --> 0:43:17.880 of the all day curfew. Cops and state troopers have 0:43:17.960 --> 0:43:21.200 put checkpoints at every bridge and on all major streets 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:25.160 for about every ten blocks. Your friends and the city's 0:43:25.239 --> 0:43:28.520 local liberal majority are now calling this what it is. 0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:32.160 Your city is functioning as a full on police state. 0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:37.720 National establishment media has been more hesitants to use that term, 0:43:37.760 --> 0:43:40.839 but your Fox watching conservative family from out of state 0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:43.360 has been texting you about how good it is that 0:43:43.480 --> 0:43:46.600 someone is finally establishing law and order and taking back 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:50.520 the town. After months of senseless looting and destructive riots, 0:43:52.040 --> 0:43:55.160 You've been mostly stuck in your downtown apartment. You quit 0:43:55.200 --> 0:43:57.719 your job when the recent amount of protests started up, 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:01.040 which now means you don't qualify for the working hours 0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:04.560 exemption of the curfew. You've got enough money saved up 0:44:04.560 --> 0:44:07.320 for another month, but you're looking to get a grocery 0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:09.960 delivery job, which would have the added benefit of allowing 0:44:09.960 --> 0:44:13.520 you to go outside during the day. Luckily, you've been 0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:16.239 able to sneak out at night to do rooftopping and 0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:20.520 surveil the police's checkpoints and patrol routes in your neighborhood. 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:25.000 You've noticed that the cops rarely look up. You've been 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:27.759 feeding your intail into a surveillance database shared on a 0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:32.640 telegram channel ran by some various activists. After lying in 0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:35.560 bed gathering your thoughts for a few minutes, you finally 0:44:35.680 --> 0:44:39.120 roll out and pick out your clothes. Dark loose pants, 0:44:39.320 --> 0:44:44.680 a plane shirt, beanie, and a highs jacket. Ordinarily, you'd 0:44:44.680 --> 0:44:47.759 break into your red bull stache for morning caffeine, but 0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:52.120 you've already got plenty of energy. Today it's your boyfriend's birthday, 0:44:52.320 --> 0:44:55.800 and for the past week you've been planning to surprise him. 0:44:55.960 --> 0:44:58.960 You think there's finally enough information in the surveillance database 0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:01.440 to plan a trip us town with little to no 0:45:01.600 --> 0:45:06.280 law enforcement interaction. Between the in person reconnaissance and hacking 0:45:06.280 --> 0:45:10.200 into the city's traffic cams, which was surprisingly easy, you've 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:12.840 been able to figure out a route using city buses 0:45:12.880 --> 0:45:15.879 and on foot that should be able to avoid checkpoints 0:45:15.920 --> 0:45:19.440 and the regular patrol routes from what you've seen online. 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:22.719 Bus drivers won't ask for your work authorization card, and 0:45:22.760 --> 0:45:24.680 you're hoping the high his jacket will make it look 0:45:24.760 --> 0:45:27.719 like you belong. Lastly, before you leave, you grab your 0:45:27.760 --> 0:45:30.400 small yellow messenger bag and jam in a water bottle 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:37.320 plus a ten of a half a dozen cupcakes. Deep breaths, slowly, 0:45:37.320 --> 0:45:39.560 twist the handle of your door, and stare down in 0:45:39.600 --> 0:45:44.240 your apartment hallway. You're on your way. You keep telling yourself, 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:47.839 just act like you belong. After taking the stairs down 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:51.319 to ground level, you make your way street side. This 0:45:51.400 --> 0:45:54.440 part you feel more confident about. You've been able to 0:45:54.440 --> 0:45:57.640 study the patrol patterns around your media area more carefully. 0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:00.680 The bus stop you're going to was just four blocks away. 0:46:00.960 --> 0:46:03.200 You can zig zig through two streets and to avoid 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:06.239 the main drags. As you walk through the sidewalks, you 0:46:06.320 --> 0:46:08.759 keep your head down, but your eyes are darting side 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:11.479 to side to get a lay of the land. Don't 0:46:11.480 --> 0:46:16.200 walk too fast or too slow. Match the people around you. Obviously, 0:46:16.320 --> 0:46:18.759 not many people are out right now, but there are 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:22.440 enough to mirror their movement and pace. It feels like 0:46:22.440 --> 0:46:24.479 it took forever, but you get to the bus stop 0:46:24.520 --> 0:46:28.640 without incident or seeing a single cop. Waiting at bus 0:46:28.640 --> 0:46:31.920 stops always feels like an eternity, but today it's worse. 0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:35.239 Within a few minutes, the blue metro bus does pull up. 0:46:35.640 --> 0:46:40.600 The bus driver gestures you on. The electronic ticketing system 0:46:40.680 --> 0:46:43.680 isn't turned on. You peek up to the driver. The 0:46:43.719 --> 0:46:45.879 look in her eyes is telling you just a head 0:46:45.920 --> 0:46:49.000 on back. At least you know she's probably on your side. 0:46:49.920 --> 0:46:52.239 You picked this bus not because it's the most direct 0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:55.360 route to your boyfriend's place. It's not, but because he 0:46:55.440 --> 0:46:58.000 gets you close enough while avoiding the checkpoints you and 0:46:58.040 --> 0:47:01.160 your internet buddies have mapped out. It's a slower, more 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:03.400 jagged route, but at least you get to relax for 0:47:03.400 --> 0:47:06.000 a while and enjoy the ride. And hey, you can 0:47:06.040 --> 0:47:07.520 get an in person look at the rest of the 0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:11.360 city under the curfew and police occupation. The ride is 0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:13.239 now closing in on a little over half an hour, 0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:16.480 about ten more minutes until you get off. Your heart's 0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:19.799 racing you might actually do this. In your flash of 0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:22.759 nervous excitement, you look up ahead on the road and 0:47:23.080 --> 0:47:26.200 your face drops. About half a mile up ahead, you 0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:30.640 spot a checkpoint. Fuck no, this, this is wrong. This 0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:33.320 wasn't on the map. The checkpoint on this street was 0:47:33.360 --> 0:47:36.000 supposed to be further up the road. After you get off, 0:47:36.640 --> 0:47:40.000 your mind flashes through different possibilities. Did the cops change 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.239 the checkpoint this morning? Wait? Did the police find the 0:47:43.320 --> 0:47:45.920 database map on telegram? And are getting at false info? 0:47:46.440 --> 0:47:49.120 You stop yourself from thinking because you realize you need 0:47:49.160 --> 0:47:51.800 to act now and think later. You jump out of 0:47:51.840 --> 0:47:54.280 your seat and sprint up the bus towards the driver. 0:47:54.680 --> 0:47:58.760 You blurt out, I need to get off this right now. Please. 0:47:59.680 --> 0:48:02.760 The draw ever looks ahead, looks at you, and tilts 0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:07.400 her head down and pulls over quick. That's all she 0:48:07.440 --> 0:48:09.440 says to you. You dart out of the bus and 0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:13.200 into the half residential, half retail labyrinth, and as you're 0:48:13.280 --> 0:48:18.319 running you hear sirens. Fuck they saw you. Your head 0:48:18.320 --> 0:48:21.040 swivels around to catch a glance. One car from the 0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:24.520 checkpoint is headed your way. You hope the bus driver 0:48:24.680 --> 0:48:28.000 doesn't get in trouble, but right now that's not your problem, 0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:30.280 you think. First thing you need to do is prevent 0:48:30.320 --> 0:48:33.800 the vehicle from pursuing you. So off the big streets. 0:48:34.560 --> 0:48:36.640 You take a second to tighten the messenger bag around 0:48:36.640 --> 0:48:40.279 your body. And here we go to You're right. You 0:48:40.320 --> 0:48:43.120 see a walled courtyard for a small two story apartment. 0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:47.120 Estimate the wall is eight feet tall. Doable. You turn 0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:49.800 out the street and run towards the wall, slowly gaining speed, 0:48:50.040 --> 0:48:52.120 jump up and punch your foot on the side. Then 0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:54.719 your arms reach up and grab the top. It's a 0:48:54.719 --> 0:48:56.440 bit of a struggle to pull yourself up. You've got 0:48:56.520 --> 0:48:58.480 some stuff weighing you down and you're a bit out 0:48:58.480 --> 0:49:01.399 of practice, but you get up. You hop down onto 0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:04.000 the other side and keep going for now. You batrol 0:49:04.040 --> 0:49:06.800 through some dense bushes and vault a few small railings 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:10.080 as you traverse the side streets. Soon enough, you're far 0:49:10.200 --> 0:49:12.360 enough away from the car, with plenty of obstacles in 0:49:12.400 --> 0:49:14.400 between you and it that you feel like you can 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:19.279 catch a quick breather. Now you have a choice hide 0:49:19.320 --> 0:49:21.360 it out here for a bit or figure out a 0:49:21.440 --> 0:49:24.720 way to your boyfriends. You still got a decent sense 0:49:24.760 --> 0:49:27.320 of where you are. The destination should be only about 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:31.080 ten blocks away. Now in a diagonal direction, you'll get 0:49:31.080 --> 0:49:33.680 plenty of time to rest your boyfriend's place, so you 0:49:33.800 --> 0:49:37.000 figure you should continue on. As you're about to head 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:40.160 on your way to armored state troopers turned the corner 0:49:40.280 --> 0:49:44.400 on foot. You remember you're still pretty close to the checkpoint. 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:47.360 One look at you with your hands on your knees. 0:49:47.400 --> 0:49:51.960 As you pant. The cops know you're out of place. Stop, 0:49:52.160 --> 0:49:56.759 yells the cop. You're being detained. Fuck, time to book it. 0:49:56.880 --> 0:49:59.160 Gonna have to think as you run. Good news is 0:49:59.160 --> 0:50:02.480 is that they're armor. Bad news is that you're tired 0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:05.319 and your outfit is blown. You can change clothes once 0:50:05.360 --> 0:50:07.239 you get to your boyfriends, so you decide the best 0:50:07.239 --> 0:50:09.680 course of action now is to make it hard for 0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:12.120 two people in armor to follow you. Time to put 0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:15.600 some obstacles between you and them. You're already mostly out 0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:18.040 of the retail area, which means it's time to hop 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:21.759 some backyard fences Ferris Bueller's Day Off Shit. You make 0:50:21.800 --> 0:50:23.840 a sharp left turn behind a car and into someone's 0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:26.320 yard and up and over their fence. One hand grabs 0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:28.200 on top, one hand goes to the far side, and 0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:31.040 you flip your body over. Next few fences are shorter, 0:50:31.200 --> 0:50:34.120 regular speed vaults will do. The sound of the clinky 0:50:34.200 --> 0:50:37.160 tactle boots chasing you gets quieter as you traverse through 0:50:37.200 --> 0:50:40.719 the yards and zig zigging around blocks. Before you know it, 0:50:40.840 --> 0:50:43.560 you're on the back street of your partner's place. Only 0:50:43.600 --> 0:50:45.920 a few more steps and you can see their backyard 0:50:45.960 --> 0:50:48.239 in the distance. You quick to in your head and 0:50:48.239 --> 0:50:50.400 look around. From what you can see, you've lost the 0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:53.880 State troopers. You scurry through four more yards before you 0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:56.680 reach your target. You let it a sigh of relief. 0:50:57.400 --> 0:51:00.239 You jog past the side yard towards the front. You 0:51:00.360 --> 0:51:03.600 probably should use the front door before you knock. You 0:51:03.719 --> 0:51:06.640 take a look inside your messenger bag. You unclipped the latch, 0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:10.439 and inside lies a smushed pile of cupcake crumbs with 0:51:10.600 --> 0:51:15.839 pink frosting coating insides of your bag. H Well, at 0:51:15.920 --> 0:51:18.359 least I made it in one piece, you say out loud. 0:51:19.400 --> 0:51:22.560 After an exhausting trek, you finally knock on the door. 0:51:28.680 --> 0:51:32.080 It could happen here. Podcast Robert Evans. Sophie is not 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:34.719 here today, so I get to open the episode with 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:38.719 a tonal grunting um because she was unable to stop me. 0:51:39.840 --> 0:51:43.080 Welcome to the podcast that this is talking about things 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:46.919 falling apart? How to you know make it not? Maybe? Uh? 0:51:46.960 --> 0:51:50.160 My guest today, well, my my co host today first 0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:52.920 is Garrison Davis. Garrison, how are you doing today? I'm 0:51:52.960 --> 0:51:55.600 doing good good. We have a little bit of a 0:51:55.600 --> 0:51:58.080 fun update. This actually happened last week but this will 0:51:58.080 --> 0:52:01.120 be the first episode we're recording since it happened. UM. 0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:04.560 Last week we put up some links to ago fund 0:52:04.600 --> 0:52:06.640 me and a couple of different episodes of Bastards and 0:52:06.719 --> 0:52:09.719 of It Could Happen here to try to help a 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:13.000 woman named Ruba who lives in Portland, UM and is 0:52:13.440 --> 0:52:17.160 a community activists save her house. UM. When we started 0:52:17.160 --> 0:52:19.960 the fundraiser, she'd raised about twenty eight grand to to 0:52:20.320 --> 0:52:24.239 you know, get basically keep her home. UM, and it's 0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:27.160 up to the fifty grand she needed. Y'all did that 0:52:27.200 --> 0:52:30.640 in about three days. UM. So you've you've you've kept 0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:32.960 a woman in her home UM and allowed her and 0:52:33.000 --> 0:52:35.560 her family to stay where they are. And I'm just 0:52:35.680 --> 0:52:39.799 extremely grateful to everybody who donated, who shared. UM. It's 0:52:39.960 --> 0:52:44.000 just awesome. UM. You know this comes after earlier in 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:46.319 this year you all funded the Portland Diaper Bank. UM. 0:52:46.360 --> 0:52:50.360 I just continued to be very impressed with with how 0:52:50.400 --> 0:52:53.320 how much people who listen to these shows are willing 0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:57.200 to throw down to help people out. So thank you all. UH, 0:52:57.200 --> 0:52:59.400 and now I'm going to hand it off to Garrison. Garrison, 0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:00.799 what don't we what do we? What do we? What 0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:03.000 are we? What are we? What are we talking about today? 0:53:03.320 --> 0:53:07.600 So today we're gonna be talking about and discussing two 0:53:07.760 --> 0:53:13.120 of kind of my favorite practical skill sets hey been 0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:17.520 training for I don't know seven eight, I think almost 0:53:17.560 --> 0:53:22.120 eight years now. UM, and it's what, yeah, one of 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:25.040 one of my favorite interests. It's useful very practically. It's 0:53:25.040 --> 0:53:28.960 also useful for fun. We're talking about, uh parkour, which 0:53:29.239 --> 0:53:31.440 people may have hurt me discussed before, but also just 0:53:31.520 --> 0:53:34.440 kind of like stealth in general, um, and how to 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:38.960 become mindful of your presence among other people. UM. As 0:53:39.000 --> 0:53:42.480 a big, clumsy guy who's worked extensively with you in 0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:46.240 aggressive situations, I can confirm that your parkour is very 0:53:47.160 --> 0:53:49.400 very effective because you are a fast, little set of 0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:53.960 a bit very good at getting away from the cops 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:56.080 and getting to where you need to be to film things. 0:53:56.080 --> 0:54:00.239 It was always, um kind of amazing, as frustrating as 0:54:00.280 --> 0:54:02.319 it was sometimes when you would when you would start 0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:04.960 out ahead of everybody, but yeah, I can't argue with 0:54:05.000 --> 0:54:09.239 the results. So and to help us kind of talk 0:54:09.320 --> 0:54:13.440 about parkorn and stealth, I have brought on a friend 0:54:13.480 --> 0:54:17.680 of mine who is the person who mostly taught me 0:54:18.080 --> 0:54:22.040 um parker and stealth. My friend Rick, who has been 0:54:22.040 --> 0:54:25.319 teaching Parker for a long time. UM, say hi Rick, 0:54:27.440 --> 0:54:30.480 that that that's right. Rick is very not super social, 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:32.719 so it's I think it's amazing that I was able 0:54:32.760 --> 0:54:36.800 to convince him to come in a podcast. Pretty funny. Um. 0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:38.440 First off, Rick, do you want to kind of just 0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:41.200 like give your definition of like park or in general, 0:54:41.200 --> 0:54:43.160 because I know whenever we say Parker, everyone just thinks 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:46.799 to the office, um, which I know you find frustrating. 0:54:48.000 --> 0:54:51.200 But yeah, for people who maybe aren't as into it 0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:52.640 as us, don't want to just give the kind of 0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:56.840 a brief overview of of Parker as like a concept. Uh, 0:54:56.960 --> 0:55:03.680 Parker is really annoy and concept to actually pin down. Um. 0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:08.880 But basically speaking, it's movement with purpose. You are somewhere, 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:11.919 you want to get somewhere, and you're trying to find 0:55:11.960 --> 0:55:13.960 the best way of doing that. When we're training, we 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:20.560 kind of focus on efficiency, safety, speed, and the reason 0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:26.239 behind the movement. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's thinking of 0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:28.200 it more as like the movement with purpose or like 0:55:28.200 --> 0:55:31.759 like intentional movement, Um, is much better than thinking of 0:55:31.800 --> 0:55:35.040 it's like like parkour isn't like flips like flips and 0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:38.560 that kind of stuff is more of what we call 0:55:38.600 --> 0:55:40.920 like UM free running. It's it's more of like a 0:55:40.960 --> 0:55:42.879 creative expression. It's more of like a kind of kind 0:55:42.880 --> 0:55:45.880 of like a sport, whereas like Parker is more usually 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:47.880 I mean, there's always gonna people that are going to 0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:50.120 fight you on this in the park, in the Parker community, 0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:53.120 but it's generally Parker is kind of more based on utility. 0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:56.960 So like last last summer at the protests, I I 0:55:57.680 --> 0:55:59.879 used you know, Parker in a lot of different ways, 0:56:00.040 --> 0:56:02.680 both to like you know, get somewhere specifically or parkor 0:56:02.800 --> 0:56:04.440 is grade is like a recovery tool, like if you 0:56:04.480 --> 0:56:07.400 get pushed over by cops. UM, park Work would be 0:56:07.480 --> 0:56:09.719 very useful for like getting up very fast. You know. 0:56:09.760 --> 0:56:12.239 It's like all that kind of more practical side of things. 0:56:12.239 --> 0:56:14.200 And I've used Parker you know before I was doing 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:18.000 filming at different kind of activism related type things. It's 0:56:18.040 --> 0:56:21.600 just it's a super useful skill to have UM And 0:56:21.680 --> 0:56:23.239 today I wanted to talk talk a bit about like 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:28.520 Parker's practical application in you know, conflict ish scenarios, but 0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:33.680 also wanted to touch on stealth um as you know, 0:56:34.239 --> 0:56:37.520 sometimes you don't need Parker and if you can avoid 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:39.759 a scenario where you have to use it would be 0:56:39.840 --> 0:56:42.160 kind of great. So I've asked Rick to kind of 0:56:42.160 --> 0:56:44.680 prepare a few things on stealth, which then we'll kind of, 0:56:44.719 --> 0:56:46.800 you know, bounce off each other and talk kind of 0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:50.560 a general discussion of Parker and stealth in general and 0:56:50.560 --> 0:56:54.239 how it relates to kind of conflict scenarios. Um. So, Rick, 0:56:54.280 --> 0:56:58.760 where would you like to start for you know, stealth overview? Well, 0:56:59.320 --> 0:57:04.280 in conflict with other people, there's like three different levels 0:57:04.440 --> 0:57:09.880 of the conflict um and all of these get trained 0:57:09.880 --> 0:57:16.280 in different places. Usually there's the actual um like conflict. 0:57:16.400 --> 0:57:20.200 The combat, which is more of a martial arts or 0:57:20.440 --> 0:57:23.240 gun training or weapon training of any kind as well, 0:57:23.320 --> 0:57:27.520 compares you for that Beneath that is the Parker level, 0:57:27.640 --> 0:57:30.320 where you can avoid getting into the conflict in the 0:57:30.360 --> 0:57:33.640 first place. If you can get away from the situation, Yeah, 0:57:33.680 --> 0:57:35.240 if you're more of an arm's length of way, then 0:57:35.280 --> 0:57:37.280 you can create more distance between you and someone it's 0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:42.240 trying to hurt you. And in nine percent of conflict situations, 0:57:42.280 --> 0:57:44.400 that's going to be a better self defense option than 0:57:44.440 --> 0:57:47.400 literally any weapon you could carry. Just getting the hell 0:57:47.440 --> 0:57:51.040 away is always the preferred. There's there's there's a really 0:57:51.040 --> 0:57:54.040 good comic. Um, it's it's like it's it's like a 0:57:54.080 --> 0:57:55.920 it's like a like like a comedy comic of like 0:57:56.000 --> 0:57:58.560 someone someone trying to get into like a knife fight 0:57:58.840 --> 0:58:02.360 and you're just like, nope, I'm running away because there's 0:58:02.440 --> 0:58:05.439 no there's no winner in a knife fight. The only 0:58:05.480 --> 0:58:07.960 way to win a knife fight is to be oh 0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:10.280 far away from someone with a knife. Yeah, I mean 0:58:10.360 --> 0:58:13.680 literally Again, the only justified situation I can think of 0:58:13.760 --> 0:58:16.160 too physically getting into a knife fight is like what 0:58:16.280 --> 0:58:19.000 happened on the Portland Max train when someone else can't 0:58:19.040 --> 0:58:21.680 get away. Yeah, you're still gonna stick to them. And 0:58:21.720 --> 0:58:25.680 the two guys who did that died. They died. Yeah yeah, um, 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:27.280 not that they did the wrong thing. They did the 0:58:27.320 --> 0:58:29.680 only thing they could. But that's what a knife fight is. 0:58:30.040 --> 0:58:32.560 So yeah, it's being able to get the funk away 0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:36.560 is the best self defense. Yeah. I carry weapons with 0:58:36.600 --> 0:58:39.680 me wherever I go, but I don't want to ever 0:58:39.920 --> 0:58:42.520 use them. My first response is always going to be 0:58:42.960 --> 0:58:47.720 look for an escape path. Yeah yeah, yeah. A weapon 0:58:47.800 --> 0:58:50.120 is only for if you can't get away or if 0:58:50.120 --> 0:58:54.120 someone else can't get away. So pretty much like yeah, well, yeah, 0:58:54.200 --> 0:58:57.200 I've always been interested because again I've watched you know, 0:58:57.320 --> 0:59:00.640 Garrison hop Away from Cops over ps is where I 0:59:00.680 --> 0:59:04.280 had to like, you know, fall over the fence essentially 0:59:04.800 --> 0:59:08.560 because I'm not nearly as good. I'm someone who exercises, 0:59:08.560 --> 0:59:10.400 But like number one, is it even possible to like 0:59:10.480 --> 0:59:13.200 learn this stuff without fucking your thirty three year old 0:59:13.240 --> 0:59:16.200 body up a bunch in the process. That's a lot 0:59:16.200 --> 0:59:20.760 of scared of is like over sixty, and he's good, 0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:26.000 very good. He's actually like one of my high intermediate, 0:59:26.040 --> 0:59:30.760 low advanced students, honestly, and he started when he was 0:59:30.840 --> 0:59:35.640 like fifty. How do you uh, I mean, like it 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:38.520 it just seems like injury, I guess because my my 0:59:38.520 --> 0:59:41.240 my stereotypical view of it is like a bunch of 0:59:41.360 --> 0:59:45.360 jumping up on buildings and leaping over stuff like, um, 0:59:45.400 --> 0:59:49.800 it seems like injuries would be a pretty common fact. Um. So, 0:59:50.040 --> 0:59:52.160 I guess that's kind of like always been my first 0:59:52.360 --> 0:59:55.360 concern there, like how do you how do you how 0:59:55.360 --> 0:59:57.160 do you train people to do this stuff with a 0:59:57.200 --> 1:00:00.840 minimum of risk? Well, that's kind of always the focus 1:00:00.840 --> 1:00:04.000 of my teaching. There certainly are other instructors out there, 1:00:04.440 --> 1:00:07.560 like the guy who taught me Parker was Basically, this 1:00:07.600 --> 1:00:09.840 is a con vault. This is what it looks like. 1:00:10.160 --> 1:00:14.840 Do it my training, Like, I sucked at Parker when 1:00:14.880 --> 1:00:18.000 I started, So my teaching method has been coming at 1:00:18.080 --> 1:00:21.240 this as a sort of Okay, I'm gonna try to 1:00:21.240 --> 1:00:23.439 break this down into as many pieces as I can, 1:00:23.640 --> 1:00:27.800 and I'm going to try to keep you completely safe. Um, 1:00:27.920 --> 1:00:31.000 Bumps and bruises do happen when you're training Parker. That's 1:00:31.040 --> 1:00:36.080 just unavoidable. It's learning how to do walking but fancy. 1:00:36.480 --> 1:00:39.120 So you get bruised when you're learning how to walk. 1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:42.000 You get bruised when you're learning every technique in Parker. 1:00:42.120 --> 1:00:44.000 But I've been doing it for fourteen years now and 1:00:44.040 --> 1:00:48.400 I've never broken any of my bones. If you do 1:00:48.440 --> 1:00:50.600 it right, you should be able to stay safe when 1:00:50.640 --> 1:00:55.640 training you. Definitely, if you can get someone who's more experienced, 1:00:55.720 --> 1:00:58.520 getting them to break down steps for you was very useful, 1:00:58.720 --> 1:01:00.480 whether that be like a park Ord gym in your 1:01:00.520 --> 1:01:02.800 area or just like a friend that that's that's been 1:01:02.840 --> 1:01:06.120 that's been messing around. Trying to like train with somebody 1:01:06.200 --> 1:01:08.560 is probably one of the most important things, um, is 1:01:08.600 --> 1:01:10.440 to have someone else there both if you like want 1:01:10.520 --> 1:01:12.560 like get hurt, you need help, but to to kind 1:01:12.560 --> 1:01:14.760 of prevent to help prevent that from even happening in 1:01:14.760 --> 1:01:16.640 the first place, because there's a lot of like very 1:01:16.680 --> 1:01:20.360 simple moves that can be introduced in very safe environments. 1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:23.440 I've I've I've been wanting to get Roberts down to 1:01:23.720 --> 1:01:25.240 the gym for like over a year now just to 1:01:25.240 --> 1:01:27.640 go over like a few basic kind of stuff that's 1:01:27.680 --> 1:01:30.960 just really really useful, pretty and like pretty easy. Like 1:01:31.120 --> 1:01:33.960 we're not we're not jumping to like you know, doing 1:01:34.000 --> 1:01:36.040 like roof topping right where we're like jumping from one 1:01:36.080 --> 1:01:38.400 roof to another. We're starting by we're starting by being like, 1:01:38.560 --> 1:01:41.200 here's like a concrete barricade, what's the safest way of 1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:43.240 getting over this if you're under pressure? Right? It's it's 1:01:43.240 --> 1:01:45.880 it's it's that kind of stuff that's specifically useful and 1:01:45.920 --> 1:01:48.440 like conflict scenarios, right, because like when we're when we're 1:01:48.480 --> 1:01:49.960 facing in a riot line, I'm not gonna be doing 1:01:50.000 --> 1:01:52.680 like flips and cart wheels to like get over fences. 1:01:52.680 --> 1:01:55.200 I'm trying to be like, what's the safest, fastest way 1:01:55.200 --> 1:01:57.320 I can get over this thing? Well, making sure I'm 1:01:57.360 --> 1:01:59.480 not going to get like shot with the rubber bullet, Right, 1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:01.960 that's kind of it's it's it's it's it's very different 1:02:01.960 --> 1:02:03.960 from like what you see on YouTube, right, YouTube's very 1:02:04.000 --> 1:02:06.640 like showy people are like trying to like basically when 1:02:06.800 --> 1:02:08.479 what you see on YouTube is people are doing people 1:02:08.520 --> 1:02:12.400 are doing like a choreographic performance, whereas Parker from a 1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:18.360 utility standpoint is very different from what you see online. Yeah, 1:02:18.600 --> 1:02:20.440 and that's one of the things that we try to 1:02:20.480 --> 1:02:23.520 train to when we're training Parkre is we just give 1:02:23.560 --> 1:02:27.480 ourselves an environment and say, okay, I'm going now, yeah, 1:02:27.520 --> 1:02:29.160 and like do it over and over again and try 1:02:29.200 --> 1:02:31.720 to figure out what's the best way of getting over 1:02:31.760 --> 1:02:34.320 this specific path. Right, if you can like make a 1:02:34.360 --> 1:02:36.680 designed path, be like, you know, even doing this at 1:02:36.720 --> 1:02:39.160 like a playground or like any any place with like logs, 1:02:39.200 --> 1:02:40.840 you know, you can do Parker in the forest and stuff, 1:02:40.880 --> 1:02:43.640 be like, I'm just like setting this path and experiment 1:02:43.680 --> 1:02:46.160 with how many ways can I move through this kind 1:02:46.160 --> 1:02:48.720 of set set of obstacles, um, And you can kind 1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:51.040 of figure out Parker on your own on in in 1:02:51.040 --> 1:02:53.439 in that kind of way, because because your body knows 1:02:53.480 --> 1:02:55.680 what it's gonna do, Like, you know, people have been 1:02:55.720 --> 1:02:58.480 moving like this for thousands and thousands of years. It's 1:02:58.520 --> 1:03:00.520 only in the past few hundred years we've like kind 1:03:00.560 --> 1:03:03.400 of lost this ability, or it's like become it's become 1:03:03.480 --> 1:03:06.920 less necessary. So like we we know how to interact 1:03:07.000 --> 1:03:09.440 with our environment in creative ways, Like we we we 1:03:09.480 --> 1:03:12.120 know how to do this, but it's just that, you know, 1:03:12.640 --> 1:03:16.760 we the past, the past few centuries, it's been less important. 1:03:17.080 --> 1:03:19.000 And I think Parker is really fun because you can 1:03:19.080 --> 1:03:22.400 kind of rediscover interacting with your environment in these you know, 1:03:22.920 --> 1:03:26.160 kind of more wild ways. It's something that we all 1:03:26.440 --> 1:03:31.439 do as children, just like evolutionarily for some reason, as 1:03:31.600 --> 1:03:35.520 children we do this as play. We climb trees and 1:03:35.560 --> 1:03:38.880 we try to go over fences. It's just that something 1:03:38.960 --> 1:03:42.200 in our society has made a shift so that when 1:03:42.200 --> 1:03:45.560 we become adults, it's suddenly not acceptable for us to 1:03:45.600 --> 1:03:48.320 do this anymore. Yeah, I mean, I can remember when 1:03:48.320 --> 1:03:49.920 I was a little kid growing up on the farm. 1:03:49.960 --> 1:03:52.280 We had a bullpen because we kept the bowl away 1:03:52.280 --> 1:03:55.120 from the cows, and my my cousin and I would 1:03:55.120 --> 1:03:56.960 hop over the fence and we would throw stuff at 1:03:57.000 --> 1:03:58.520 the bowl, and then when it started to charge, we 1:03:58.520 --> 1:04:01.600 would hop back over the fence. Like I mean, Obviously 1:04:01.640 --> 1:04:03.280 I'd never do that today because it's mean to throw 1:04:03.320 --> 1:04:05.240 things at a bowl I was six. But also I 1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:10.280 couldn't physically hop over the fence that way today. But 1:04:10.440 --> 1:04:13.080 I'm guessing within like, I don't know, even just like 1:04:13.080 --> 1:04:14.880 a few hours of practice, you could figure out a 1:04:14.920 --> 1:04:16.800 lot of ways together. I could be back to fucking 1:04:16.840 --> 1:04:21.040 with bowls. Is what exactly? You don't need to kiss 1:04:21.360 --> 1:04:24.560 kiss the bull fucking goodbye? You can? We can? We 1:04:24.600 --> 1:04:27.479 can go back to this. We could go I could, 1:04:27.520 --> 1:04:31.000 I could return to tradition. Yes, exactly. What is the 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:33.640 degree of this that can be done without? Again, like 1:04:33.800 --> 1:04:35.520 you know we have we have a wide variety of 1:04:35.560 --> 1:04:38.080 income levels that listen to this show? Um, what is 1:04:38.080 --> 1:04:40.280 the degree this can be done without like paying for training? 1:04:40.320 --> 1:04:43.200 You know that? Like, like, how is it even possible 1:04:43.240 --> 1:04:45.160 to like start on this kind of thing if you're 1:04:45.160 --> 1:04:48.920 in reasonable shape, you know, on your own, without paying someone, 1:04:48.960 --> 1:04:52.680 Because that that seems like a recipe for breaking something 1:04:52.800 --> 1:04:54.680 to me, But again, I don't know. I don't know. 1:04:54.720 --> 1:05:00.800 Ship It is very much about knowing yourself and knowing 1:05:01.320 --> 1:05:05.000 what you're ready for. Uh, this was something I mean 1:05:05.040 --> 1:05:07.480 I say that I never broke a bone in my training, 1:05:07.520 --> 1:05:09.960 But there were a couple of times I started pushing 1:05:10.000 --> 1:05:12.760 myself further than I should have, and it would have 1:05:12.800 --> 1:05:15.400 been really good to have someone there to say, Hey, 1:05:15.600 --> 1:05:18.360 you probably not ready for this yet. Let's break this 1:05:18.400 --> 1:05:22.280 down into little pieces. But if you come at it 1:05:22.880 --> 1:05:28.160 methodically and you don't endanger yourself too much. What I 1:05:28.200 --> 1:05:31.560 started out with in Parker is I would just put 1:05:31.560 --> 1:05:33.640 a piece of tape on the ground and another piece 1:05:33.680 --> 1:05:35.480 of tape and jump from one piece of tape to 1:05:35.520 --> 1:05:39.840 the other. And went out to parking lots and jumped 1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:44.120 from just an arbitrary pebble to the curb on the 1:05:44.160 --> 1:05:49.240 parking lot and found some just railings and learned how 1:05:49.280 --> 1:05:53.040 to go over those railings safely, and gradually just started 1:05:53.160 --> 1:05:55.600 building up to higher and higher things. You always want 1:05:55.640 --> 1:05:58.280 to start at ground level when you're training Parkers. Don't 1:05:58.440 --> 1:06:02.120 go up to high places for your first thing. Yeah. 1:06:02.160 --> 1:06:05.240 I think there there's a lot of like instructional videos 1:06:05.320 --> 1:06:07.520 on YouTube too that that are not just like showing off. 1:06:07.520 --> 1:06:09.440 It's actually people trying to like break down movements. So 1:06:09.640 --> 1:06:12.880 you can like get find a specific video and be like, Okay, 1:06:13.000 --> 1:06:14.640 I want to, you know, bring this on my phone, 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:18.000 go out into like a playground a parking lot, like 1:06:18.000 --> 1:06:20.080 like a wooded area and be like, okay, this is 1:06:20.160 --> 1:06:22.200 this is this one vault. I don't watch the video 1:06:22.200 --> 1:06:24.479 and I'm gonna try to replicate it myself. That's really 1:06:24.480 --> 1:06:27.640 the the kind of easiest, cheapest way to kind of 1:06:27.680 --> 1:06:31.320 break that down without having to you know, pay someone 1:06:31.360 --> 1:06:35.040 tons of money. Um. You know, if parker classes aren't 1:06:35.040 --> 1:06:37.600 the most expensive thing. Um, so that's if if you 1:06:37.640 --> 1:06:39.920 do have a little bit of disposable income. I I 1:06:41.200 --> 1:06:43.000 like park work classes. I did them for a long time, 1:06:43.240 --> 1:06:46.040 but there was a certain point actually that like I 1:06:46.040 --> 1:06:49.200 couldn't afford classes anymore. And luckily I've been doing park 1:06:49.240 --> 1:06:51.520 wore enough at that point that I was able to 1:06:51.560 --> 1:06:54.000 become an assistant instructor, which means I've got like a 1:06:54.040 --> 1:06:58.360 free I got like a free membership in exchange for 1:06:58.440 --> 1:07:01.000 you know, helping out in classes, like a few hours 1:07:01.000 --> 1:07:02.680 a week. So that's what that's what I did for 1:07:02.760 --> 1:07:06.480 years when I couldn't afford classes, is it's just helps 1:07:06.520 --> 1:07:08.440 help teach, which I mean eventually I got leveled up 1:07:08.440 --> 1:07:11.320 to being like a full time instructor. Um. So that 1:07:11.440 --> 1:07:13.280 is kind of the other way is you know, once 1:07:13.320 --> 1:07:15.200 you get enough stuff, there are you know, there's there's 1:07:15.200 --> 1:07:18.280 ways canna like make friends who know more Parker than you. 1:07:18.280 --> 1:07:20.600 You can do you know, outdoor training with them, which 1:07:20.640 --> 1:07:22.920 can be free. Um, but if you if you do 1:07:22.960 --> 1:07:25.440 really want like a like a gym environment, there is 1:07:25.480 --> 1:07:27.640 there's ways of making classes not the most expensive thing. 1:07:28.640 --> 1:07:32.680 There's online groups that schedule meetups every now and then, 1:07:32.760 --> 1:07:35.600 So if you can find an online group in your area, 1:07:35.760 --> 1:07:38.439 you can go to one of their meetups and ask 1:07:38.520 --> 1:07:41.680 for advice. Not everyone's going to give the best advice. 1:07:41.760 --> 1:07:44.160 There are some people in the park or community who 1:07:44.360 --> 1:07:49.280 are always pushing their boundaries. They'll be in a cast 1:07:49.400 --> 1:07:54.280 half of the time. Um, the more advanced people, yeah, 1:07:54.440 --> 1:07:58.520 they generally, so always take advice with a grain of salt. 1:07:58.800 --> 1:08:01.720 Not everyone knows every rething, and no one knows your 1:08:01.720 --> 1:08:05.040 body as well as you do. So you've got to 1:08:05.120 --> 1:08:07.720 keep yourself safe above everything else. You can't get better 1:08:07.760 --> 1:08:11.320 at park Or if you break both of your legs. Yeah, 1:08:11.360 --> 1:08:14.840 that's always So a couple of questions here. Number one 1:08:14.840 --> 1:08:18.400 would be obviously, I don't expect you know, like somebody's 1:08:18.400 --> 1:08:20.400 in Michigan or whatever. I don't expect you to know 1:08:20.439 --> 1:08:23.080 the best parkour instructor there. But if somebody is looking 1:08:23.120 --> 1:08:25.200 at going the gym route, are there kind of some 1:08:25.280 --> 1:08:28.280 hard and fast rules for determining whether or not these 1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:30.200 folks know what they're doing? Like, is there any kind 1:08:30.200 --> 1:08:32.479 of advice you have in terms of picking a gym 1:08:32.560 --> 1:08:35.320 or is it just kind of like go into Google 1:08:35.320 --> 1:08:38.799 Maps and see see where the parkour will be. That's 1:08:38.880 --> 1:08:43.519 a little bit tough because especially since COVID, there's not 1:08:43.680 --> 1:08:47.519 many options for park or gins out here. Um, my 1:08:47.560 --> 1:08:50.880 best advice would be go and if they let you 1:08:51.080 --> 1:08:54.080 just watch a class and see what's going on. Um, 1:08:54.360 --> 1:09:01.080 see how many people have casts? Yeah, yeah, back when 1:09:01.120 --> 1:09:05.880 I was learning parkour originally we would have basically two 1:09:05.920 --> 1:09:09.719 people in a cast all the time, just in the class. Yeah, 1:09:09.800 --> 1:09:12.080 I didn't know that the guy that I was trying 1:09:12.080 --> 1:09:16.200 to keep up with the whole times than three stints 1:09:16.240 --> 1:09:19.120 in a cast. Yeah, just funny because I've never got 1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:21.360 a serious injury ever. I was. I was always more 1:09:21.400 --> 1:09:24.479 careful in my training, but like, the most I've gotten 1:09:24.640 --> 1:09:28.679 is like is like you know, like bruises and stuff. 1:09:28.720 --> 1:09:31.160 I've I've I've and I got to a relatively high 1:09:31.240 --> 1:09:35.200 level of parker like if years ago only took classes 1:09:35.240 --> 1:09:39.960 from me but was always on breaking things down and 1:09:40.000 --> 1:09:44.120 making them accessible and safe. True. True, yeah, yeah, but 1:09:44.240 --> 1:09:46.760 there is there's definitely people who are more who are 1:09:46.880 --> 1:09:49.639 more carefree with their body and okay with hurting themselves 1:09:49.640 --> 1:09:52.599 to do something cool. Yeah, and some people will get 1:09:52.600 --> 1:09:54.960 away with that. So for folks who are there don't 1:09:54.960 --> 1:09:56.800 have the financial means to go to a gym where 1:09:56.800 --> 1:09:58.920 there's just nothing in their area, because as you said, 1:09:59.320 --> 1:10:02.240 there's a play. Um, if people are gonna you've given 1:10:02.280 --> 1:10:04.200 some advice and like how to start trying yourself. Are 1:10:04.200 --> 1:10:07.320 there any specific online resources you would recommend to folks 1:10:07.320 --> 1:10:09.240 who are you know, looking to get on unless on 1:10:09.280 --> 1:10:12.439 their own dip their toes in um, you know, YouTube 1:10:12.520 --> 1:10:15.040 channels or or people who you know do good like 1:10:15.120 --> 1:10:18.160 writing breakdowns, anything that you would, uh, you would push 1:10:18.160 --> 1:10:23.040 folks towards. I haven't been up to date on it recently. UM. 1:10:23.080 --> 1:10:27.439 A lot of the videos out there are garbage. UM. 1:10:27.520 --> 1:10:31.320 What I recommend you look for is you look for, 1:10:31.479 --> 1:10:34.640 first of all, explanation. UM. Second of all, if you 1:10:34.680 --> 1:10:39.280 can find videos of someone who's training something and they 1:10:39.320 --> 1:10:41.599 failed to do the move that they're trying to do correctly, 1:10:41.640 --> 1:10:43.200 and they fail to do the move that they're trying 1:10:43.240 --> 1:10:45.400 to do correctly. They fail and fail and fail and 1:10:45.400 --> 1:10:49.240 fail and then succeed. M hm. That's an honest video. 1:10:49.400 --> 1:10:54.240 That's one that I would listen to more because they 1:10:54.280 --> 1:10:58.000 understand the process. The other videos out there are sort 1:10:58.040 --> 1:11:01.840 of greatest hits compilation and you don't get to see 1:11:01.880 --> 1:11:06.360 the whole process that goes into that. So I don't 1:11:06.400 --> 1:11:09.479 have a sense. I don't have any specific person or 1:11:09.560 --> 1:11:13.240 channel to recommend, but when you're going out there and 1:11:13.280 --> 1:11:17.120 looking for resources, just make sure that the person is 1:11:17.800 --> 1:11:21.800 being some understanding into the fact that this is the 1:11:21.840 --> 1:11:24.800 process of training and it's not just this is how 1:11:24.840 --> 1:11:27.400 it's done. Do it now, you can do it. There 1:11:27.560 --> 1:11:30.000 is there is a there is like a Parkore wiki 1:11:30.000 --> 1:11:31.960 which was like you know Parkore dot fandom dot com 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:34.320 that you can you can find like just like lists 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:36.000 of all of the moves and they give you very 1:11:36.080 --> 1:11:38.280 like simple explanations of them and they and they link 1:11:38.360 --> 1:11:41.360 to some videos um and generally like if if you 1:11:41.400 --> 1:11:43.280 just want to learn more about it, then that's then 1:11:43.320 --> 1:11:45.400 that can be a good resource. Just so you're familiar 1:11:45.439 --> 1:11:47.559 with all the different types of movement. But yeah, like 1:11:47.720 --> 1:11:49.639 make sure you take every video with a grain of salt, 1:11:49.640 --> 1:11:51.880 and you know, watch other watch other people's explanations and 1:11:51.920 --> 1:11:53.559 be like, Okay, I kind of like the way this 1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:56.240 person describes it versus this person, because you know, everyone 1:11:56.240 --> 1:11:59.080 teaches differently. Everyone teaches for kind of you know, different 1:11:59.280 --> 1:12:02.080 differently body types for different like you know, body like 1:12:02.120 --> 1:12:05.680 performance models. Um. So you know, because you can't just 1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:08.439 apply the same thing to everyone because everyone's everyone is different. 1:12:08.960 --> 1:12:13.519 But you know, the parkore WICKI is a decent resource. Um. 1:12:13.560 --> 1:12:16.639 And then you know there's YouTube is especially since since 1:12:16.680 --> 1:12:19.639 the two thousands, there's been a plethora of content, most 1:12:19.640 --> 1:12:21.960 of most of it bad, but you know there's lots 1:12:22.000 --> 1:12:25.240 to at least look for. Al Right, Um, anything else 1:12:25.280 --> 1:12:28.040 you wanted to get into, Yeah, I wanted to kind 1:12:28.080 --> 1:12:32.120 of branch off of like the parkour discussion into kind 1:12:32.120 --> 1:12:36.040 of like, uh, the more kind of stealth based discussion 1:12:36.520 --> 1:12:38.640 of of kind of being aware of your presence in 1:12:38.680 --> 1:12:41.160 relation to other people and recond I know you were 1:12:41.160 --> 1:12:45.040 talking about like the different levels of stealth. So you've 1:12:45.040 --> 1:12:49.240 got the combat training which prevents you from getting killed 1:12:49.680 --> 1:12:54.559 or captured in uh, the worst of scenarios, and then 1:12:54.840 --> 1:12:57.879 we have our core that you can use to prevent 1:12:58.080 --> 1:13:02.160 the combat in the first place, and stealth is what 1:13:02.240 --> 1:13:05.680 you use to prevent the chase from happening in the 1:13:05.720 --> 1:13:10.920 first place. It's kind of a tree of I really 1:13:10.960 --> 1:13:12.880 don't want to have to fight someone, so I'm going 1:13:12.920 --> 1:13:15.280 to run away instead. I really don't want to have 1:13:15.360 --> 1:13:17.200 to run away from someone, so I'm just going to 1:13:17.360 --> 1:13:22.200 try and not to be noticed by them instead. And 1:13:22.760 --> 1:13:26.000 that's been a lot of what my training in Parker 1:13:26.160 --> 1:13:30.479 has been focused around, is just staying de escalated as 1:13:30.520 --> 1:13:36.240 possible with everything. Yeah, because we me and Rick have 1:13:36.320 --> 1:13:39.839 focused most of our Parker training on on stealth UM 1:13:39.880 --> 1:13:42.920 as opposed to being you know, super strong or super 1:13:42.920 --> 1:13:47.280 powerful UM. And stealth always a really hard concept to 1:13:47.320 --> 1:13:49.960 talk about because it's kind of like nebulous in nature, 1:13:50.439 --> 1:13:53.160 because stealth isn't being invisible, right, It's it's not it's 1:13:53.200 --> 1:13:57.920 not being totally unnoticed. It's want It's it's it's wanting 1:13:57.960 --> 1:14:03.480 to craft the way you're seen in a specific way. Yeah. Um, 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:06.519 it's always been very difficult for me to explain what 1:14:06.640 --> 1:14:10.840 stealth is. The most recent definition that I've given for 1:14:10.920 --> 1:14:15.519 it is that's everything that you do, everything that you 1:14:15.600 --> 1:14:19.800 are gives off a certain amount of noise and a 1:14:19.880 --> 1:14:24.400 certain type of noise. So the way that you dress. 1:14:25.520 --> 1:14:28.200 You can dress in a very loud way with a 1:14:28.320 --> 1:14:33.719 hive is vest day glow, colors, um, something that makes 1:14:33.760 --> 1:14:37.160 you really easy to notice. But if you're in the 1:14:37.280 --> 1:14:41.839 right environment, that might be the right type of noise 1:14:41.880 --> 1:14:44.559 to be making to blend into a crowd. Like a 1:14:44.600 --> 1:14:48.120 three piece suit is also a very loud outfit to wear, 1:14:48.880 --> 1:14:51.880 But if you're on the streets of New York, that's normal. 1:14:52.240 --> 1:14:54.479 If you come into a park origin wearing a three 1:14:54.520 --> 1:14:59.360 piece suit, it's very abnormal. So that's not the right 1:14:59.640 --> 1:15:04.280 type of noise if you're trying to blend in there. Yeah, 1:15:04.400 --> 1:15:06.760 a lot of it's about kind of constructing the way 1:15:06.800 --> 1:15:09.679 people see you based on what environment you're in and 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:13.680 who you're trying to remain undetected from, right, because I 1:15:13.680 --> 1:15:16.320 mean they were like not even necessarily undetected, but just 1:15:16.360 --> 1:15:20.720 detected in a specific way. Because people eyes. People's eyes 1:15:20.720 --> 1:15:23.160 can glaze over a lot of a lot of stuff. 1:15:23.200 --> 1:15:25.559 If if just that the right puzzle pieces are put 1:15:25.560 --> 1:15:29.200 into their brain, that it's like nothing nothing to see here. 1:15:29.200 --> 1:15:31.960 Every everything is normal. Nothing not nothing. To be alerted, right, 1:15:31.960 --> 1:15:35.000 because what you're trying to do is prevent someone from 1:15:35.040 --> 1:15:37.640 being like alerted to your presence. That is kind of 1:15:37.680 --> 1:15:40.720 the main thing. So you can be within someone's sitelines, 1:15:40.880 --> 1:15:43.799 but the way that you're dressed, the way that you're moving, 1:15:44.000 --> 1:15:48.080 the way that you hold yourself fails to get their attention. 1:15:48.640 --> 1:15:52.280 They're subconscious registers that you're there, but it doesn't register 1:15:52.360 --> 1:15:55.920 consciously to them that you're there. It's the gray Man 1:15:56.080 --> 1:15:58.200 stuff that we were talking about with Chelsea, which again 1:15:58.240 --> 1:16:01.400 there's very frustrating chetty dimension to it. But the the 1:16:01.400 --> 1:16:04.519 original idea, before it got taken over as an entire 1:16:05.200 --> 1:16:09.160 fashion aesthetic, was if you're prepared, if you're if you're 1:16:09.280 --> 1:16:12.360 going to make yourself prepared for badge situations, you don't 1:16:12.360 --> 1:16:13.920 want to wear a bunch of tactical gear. You don't 1:16:13.960 --> 1:16:16.160 want to be dressed in like five combat pants. You 1:16:16.160 --> 1:16:19.559 don't want to be carrying like military backpacks and like 1:16:19.600 --> 1:16:23.599 the cargo pants with the you know, clearly bulging with weaponry. 1:16:23.600 --> 1:16:25.600 You don't want to be open carrying a gun. You 1:16:25.640 --> 1:16:29.680 want to be dressed, however, is going to least to 1:16:30.040 --> 1:16:32.000 least set you apart from the crowd. And that is, 1:16:32.040 --> 1:16:33.960 as you said, got a vary. No, it's not a 1:16:34.000 --> 1:16:37.240 matter of like wearing all gray or wearing all black. Um, 1:16:37.560 --> 1:16:40.400 you're in downtown Salt Lake City, you know, a black 1:16:40.400 --> 1:16:43.400 hoodie and jeans might stand out more than it does 1:16:43.439 --> 1:16:45.840 if you're in downtown San Francisco, in which case you're 1:16:45.840 --> 1:16:49.400 gonna look like a million other people. I mean, And generally, 1:16:49.400 --> 1:16:52.320 if you're trying to avoid being seen, I recommend against 1:16:52.320 --> 1:16:56.439 wearing black basically at all times, especially if you're trying 1:16:56.479 --> 1:16:59.559 to remain like actually invisible at night. You don't want 1:16:59.560 --> 1:17:02.080 to wear black because black is usually too dark. Um, 1:17:02.240 --> 1:17:07.120 you you want to wear like darker blues or darker greens. Um. Yeah, 1:17:07.160 --> 1:17:10.160 generally black is should be avoided. Um. Of course, like 1:17:10.200 --> 1:17:12.599 black block is a whole separate thing because black block 1:17:12.600 --> 1:17:16.160 are trying to remain anonymous within a crowd context. But 1:17:16.200 --> 1:17:18.000 you know, in a lot of cases, you don't want 1:17:18.000 --> 1:17:19.680 to be in black block at protests, or you want 1:17:19.720 --> 1:17:21.720 to be able to switch from black block to what 1:17:21.760 --> 1:17:24.559 we call like normy block very quickly. So like you know, 1:17:24.920 --> 1:17:28.560 quick changes are another kind of form of stealth um 1:17:28.600 --> 1:17:30.280 that you can like practice like you can you can 1:17:30.360 --> 1:17:32.600 just practice doing quick changes like in your apartment, be 1:17:32.640 --> 1:17:34.920 like how fast can I get from this outfit to 1:17:34.960 --> 1:17:37.559 this outfit? Um in like a small space, right you can? 1:17:37.600 --> 1:17:39.760 You can you can BacT to these even like outside 1:17:40.280 --> 1:17:42.519 but specifically for like black block, changing both in and 1:17:42.560 --> 1:17:45.959 out of is a skill that needs to be practiced. Um. 1:17:46.000 --> 1:17:47.960 But overall, I think like there's a lot of other 1:17:48.000 --> 1:17:51.519 ways of being anonymous at a protest besides actually black block, Like, 1:17:51.520 --> 1:17:53.400 there's a lot of other kind of methods Like black 1:17:53.400 --> 1:17:55.920 blocks are very specific tactic, but it's not a tactic 1:17:55.960 --> 1:17:57.800 that needs to get applied all the time. It's it's 1:17:57.800 --> 1:18:00.880 it's very's you should be mindful that it has a 1:18:00.880 --> 1:18:03.360 lot of downsides. Um. And based on what you're trying 1:18:03.400 --> 1:18:04.960 to do, there's a lot of other ways to dress 1:18:05.040 --> 1:18:09.519 that would maybe be better. Um. Yeah, yeah, it's this 1:18:09.720 --> 1:18:12.360 um you know, it's a little bit like angles of 1:18:12.400 --> 1:18:14.000 it are kind of what we talked about even in 1:18:14.120 --> 1:18:17.360 like the last week when we were talking about like storing, 1:18:17.640 --> 1:18:19.719 you know, food and canning food and like the value 1:18:19.720 --> 1:18:22.519 of paying attention to the cycle of like what is 1:18:22.560 --> 1:18:24.960 in stock and what is not stocked in stock during 1:18:25.000 --> 1:18:26.479 what seasons. It's kind of the same thing at the 1:18:26.520 --> 1:18:29.439 value of paying attention to how people dress and how 1:18:29.520 --> 1:18:32.280 people move and like, what is a normal way to 1:18:32.320 --> 1:18:34.680 move about and wherever you live as opposed to like 1:18:34.760 --> 1:18:37.280 what stands out like it, there's a lot of value 1:18:37.320 --> 1:18:39.080 and a lot of self defense value and just kind 1:18:39.120 --> 1:18:41.960 of paying attention to people wherever you live and getting 1:18:42.000 --> 1:18:45.000 an eye for what will stand out and what won't 1:18:45.040 --> 1:18:48.000 stand out. If you're if you, if you are someone 1:18:48.080 --> 1:18:50.479 for whom being able to blend in is something you 1:18:50.560 --> 1:18:53.519 see value in. You know, Yeah, Rick, did do you 1:18:53.560 --> 1:18:55.519 do you have any things kind of on that side 1:18:55.560 --> 1:18:58.799 of things or any like exercises people can do to 1:18:58.880 --> 1:19:04.680 improve their own personal stealth. Yeah, it's very very situational. 1:19:04.840 --> 1:19:07.920 You have to sort of study many different environments. The 1:19:07.960 --> 1:19:10.280 biggest advice that I give people for stealth all the 1:19:10.320 --> 1:19:15.080 time is, um, pay attention. You have to pay attention 1:19:15.120 --> 1:19:19.439 to the smallest details when I'm even just moving around 1:19:19.439 --> 1:19:23.600 my house, like the bathroom door lock. Um, when you 1:19:23.640 --> 1:19:26.080 twist the lock, the button pops out and makes a 1:19:26.160 --> 1:19:30.559 huge noise. I actually place my thumb over it and 1:19:30.720 --> 1:19:33.200 deaden the sound as I'm doing it, and I pay 1:19:33.240 --> 1:19:36.040 attention to the kind of noise that I make in 1:19:36.200 --> 1:19:39.879 every situation and try to minimize that as much as possible. 1:19:39.920 --> 1:19:42.479 I pay attention to which parts of my house make 1:19:42.560 --> 1:19:46.320 noise when you step on them and avoid those places. 1:19:47.120 --> 1:19:54.320 Um I UM. Basically, just pay attention to every noise 1:19:54.439 --> 1:19:56.920 that my body makes, that my environment makes as I'm 1:19:56.920 --> 1:20:00.400 moving through it. Also, you have to pay at tension 1:20:00.640 --> 1:20:04.479 and study other people in different environments. You can go 1:20:04.640 --> 1:20:09.400 to a grocery store and watch the body language of 1:20:09.439 --> 1:20:12.000 the moms who are shopping with their kids, so that 1:20:12.040 --> 1:20:15.800 the people that normally you wouldn't pay attention to pay 1:20:15.840 --> 1:20:18.479 attention to them because they're doing a good job of 1:20:18.520 --> 1:20:22.000 blending in if you're not normally paying attention to them, 1:20:22.040 --> 1:20:25.080 and then try to start mimicking their body language. What 1:20:25.160 --> 1:20:27.919 I'll do when I go out is i don't directly 1:20:28.080 --> 1:20:31.280 look at anyone, but I'm paying attention to if I'm 1:20:31.320 --> 1:20:35.760 being paid attention to give myself that own that conscious 1:20:35.760 --> 1:20:39.800 feedback and say, hey, I wasn't all that stealthy this time, 1:20:39.840 --> 1:20:43.840 I kind of stuck out. Yeah, practicing your peripheral vision 1:20:43.920 --> 1:20:46.920 is definitely useful for that. I mean in terms of exercises. Yeah, 1:20:47.000 --> 1:20:48.960 just just go into like parks, or the places where 1:20:48.960 --> 1:20:51.240 there's a lot of people and like people watching and 1:20:51.240 --> 1:20:53.320 trying to figure out who does your eyes glaze over 1:20:53.360 --> 1:20:55.040 the most and what what are they doing to cause that. 1:20:55.080 --> 1:20:56.880 I think one one thing that me and Rick have 1:20:56.920 --> 1:21:00.680 talked about before is like every part of your body 1:21:00.720 --> 1:21:05.400 points somewhere, like whether that be your eyes, your nose, 1:21:05.600 --> 1:21:09.400 your chin, your arms, your hips, your chest, your hands, 1:21:09.640 --> 1:21:12.120 all of these things point in a direction. And if 1:21:12.120 --> 1:21:14.920 you can figure out which direction you can point them 1:21:14.920 --> 1:21:17.280 to make people pay less attention to you. That's kind 1:21:17.280 --> 1:21:19.600 of one of the easier models understanding how to like 1:21:19.680 --> 1:21:22.840 walk and move in a stealthy manner that I think 1:21:23.320 --> 1:21:25.200 like out of all the different ways of thinking about 1:21:25.200 --> 1:21:27.320 and I think that's the way that's helped me the most. 1:21:27.920 --> 1:21:30.360 Um it's being like, you know, if if my head 1:21:30.439 --> 1:21:33.080 is pointed up and my nose is pointed out and 1:21:33.120 --> 1:21:34.920 I'm moving my arms around a lot, that's people are 1:21:34.920 --> 1:21:37.920 gonna like like look at me more. You know, people 1:21:37.960 --> 1:21:40.479 if if if if eye contact is made, that is 1:21:40.520 --> 1:21:42.880 like a failure. So you know, if your head's pointed down, 1:21:43.120 --> 1:21:45.439 your arms are more slouched, they kind of move with 1:21:45.479 --> 1:21:47.559 your body. But that's not super exaggerated and it's not 1:21:47.600 --> 1:21:49.960 super stiff. These are different kind of ways of pointing 1:21:49.960 --> 1:21:52.920 your body to make you seem more like UM introspective 1:21:53.360 --> 1:21:56.400 UM and less external. Also walking around with UM ear 1:21:56.400 --> 1:22:00.840 plugs or like like like uh earbuds your owns. Those 1:22:00.880 --> 1:22:03.360 are ways people will pay attention to class to you 1:22:03.400 --> 1:22:05.880 look at your smartphone. Yeah, one of the back when 1:22:05.920 --> 1:22:08.080 we by, back when I took classes with you and 1:22:08.320 --> 1:22:10.000 taught classes, we we would we would we would have 1:22:10.000 --> 1:22:13.559 like a weekly a weekly games class um where we'd 1:22:13.560 --> 1:22:16.120 have different you know games and related to Parkore and 1:22:16.120 --> 1:22:17.640 you know, stealth would always kind of be something I 1:22:17.680 --> 1:22:21.160 would try to do. And you could survive so long 1:22:21.320 --> 1:22:24.559 in stealth games by just like looking like pretending that 1:22:24.600 --> 1:22:26.679 you're looking at your phone, like not even actually doing it. 1:22:26.760 --> 1:22:29.559 Just like walking in like a circle around like walking 1:22:29.560 --> 1:22:31.360 in a circle around the arena as people are trying 1:22:31.360 --> 1:22:33.200 to like tag and stuff. And if you can just 1:22:33.200 --> 1:22:35.280 like walk with your head down kind of slowly, you 1:22:35.320 --> 1:22:38.400 can strive a ridiculously long time because people are looking 1:22:38.400 --> 1:22:40.080 for people that are like running around and being like 1:22:40.080 --> 1:22:44.160 and being super energy energetic, and if you're not, people 1:22:44.200 --> 1:22:47.200 aren't detecting you as much Another thing to practice would 1:22:47.240 --> 1:22:50.120 be uh, quiet walking, which is we kind of mentioned before. 1:22:50.320 --> 1:22:53.120 It's like learning how to move your foot and interact 1:22:53.160 --> 1:22:56.200 with different surfaces that makes your walking basically silent, which 1:22:56.280 --> 1:22:58.599 is very fun because you can use this to scare 1:22:58.640 --> 1:23:01.000 your friends. It's it's, it's it's it's very exciting to 1:23:01.000 --> 1:23:03.599 to to to to like to try to figure out 1:23:03.760 --> 1:23:05.800 what's what's ways I can hide in my friend's house 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:07.920 to like jump scare them, or like kind of how 1:23:07.960 --> 1:23:10.479 close can I get behind someone with with with without 1:23:10.479 --> 1:23:12.200 them noticing that. There'd be times I can just like 1:23:12.240 --> 1:23:14.360 walk up behind someone and wait, like I kid you, 1:23:14.400 --> 1:23:16.360 not like ten minutes before they noticed I was there. 1:23:16.439 --> 1:23:20.000 It's hilarious. UM. I feel even better when I can 1:23:20.000 --> 1:23:23.280 do that to their pets because generally the animals are 1:23:23.320 --> 1:23:25.800 paying more attention to everything. So if you can successfully 1:23:25.800 --> 1:23:30.479 sneak up on someone's cat, you're doing it right. Yeah. 1:23:30.640 --> 1:23:32.960 Oh man, I do really enjoy stealth, and I'll be 1:23:32.960 --> 1:23:37.040 happy to practice it more regularly once the plug is over. Um. 1:23:37.080 --> 1:23:40.080 If it's over um. Any other kind of stealth notes 1:23:40.200 --> 1:23:42.240 that you would want to kind of bring up for 1:23:42.280 --> 1:23:44.479 if someone is trying to like get into stealth and 1:23:44.520 --> 1:23:48.200 start to start thinking about detection, you know, more often 1:23:48.200 --> 1:23:51.960 in their everyday life. It's very important that you engage 1:23:52.000 --> 1:23:56.639 in indirect observations. Yeah up. You you were talking about 1:23:56.720 --> 1:23:59.760 how everything points and one of the things that we 1:24:00.080 --> 1:24:04.320 subconsciously noticed the most is people's eyes were kind of 1:24:04.400 --> 1:24:09.440 programmed to notice eyes. So if you're looking directly at someone, 1:24:09.840 --> 1:24:13.639 they're probably gonna notice that you've noticed them. But if 1:24:13.720 --> 1:24:17.559 you're using your peripheral vision, or if instead of watching them, 1:24:17.600 --> 1:24:20.719 you're watching a reflection of them, or if you're watching 1:24:20.760 --> 1:24:24.599 their shadow um, or you're not even looking in their 1:24:24.600 --> 1:24:28.400 direction instead you're tracking them by sound, it makes it 1:24:28.600 --> 1:24:32.040 so that you have a big one up on everyone 1:24:32.040 --> 1:24:35.679 around you. Yeah, in indirect observations one of the best 1:24:35.680 --> 1:24:38.840 tools that you can use, UM if you get really 1:24:38.880 --> 1:24:41.160 clever at it. Now this this, this, this is harder 1:24:41.160 --> 1:24:43.360 because it actually if if you if you if you 1:24:43.400 --> 1:24:45.640 do this wrong, people who people, people will pay more 1:24:45.640 --> 1:24:48.280 attention to you. But you can get good at it 1:24:48.360 --> 1:24:51.760 to start using like your phone camera or even just 1:24:51.840 --> 1:24:55.040 your phone screen because like your black phone screen is pretty, 1:24:55.280 --> 1:24:59.280 is pretty, is pretty reflective in nature, so you can 1:24:59.360 --> 1:25:02.160 use this as like an error. UM but like, yeah, 1:25:02.320 --> 1:25:04.960 using like phone cameras and phone screens as a reflective 1:25:04.960 --> 1:25:07.439 surface or or just as like a camera can be 1:25:07.520 --> 1:25:09.880 used in indirect observation. But you do have to be 1:25:09.920 --> 1:25:13.040 careful because if if if it looks like you're filming somebody, 1:25:13.160 --> 1:25:15.120 they're gonna pay so much more attension to you. So yeah, 1:25:15.120 --> 1:25:16.479 you have, you have. You have to be very careful 1:25:16.520 --> 1:25:19.040 with this method, but it is possible. This is how 1:25:19.080 --> 1:25:21.120 I kind of this is how I um, this is 1:25:21.120 --> 1:25:25.479 how it's like documented different like um not sees at rallies. 1:25:25.520 --> 1:25:26.920 If I don't want to be like super obvious that 1:25:26.920 --> 1:25:28.680 that I'm taking a picture of them, there's ways of 1:25:28.720 --> 1:25:30.640 doing indirect observation with my phone that I can like 1:25:30.800 --> 1:25:33.400 get pictures of them from certain angles to be like okay, 1:25:33.560 --> 1:25:35.519 so now now I can put you. I can add 1:25:35.560 --> 1:25:38.080 you to my to my folder of nazis that have 1:25:38.120 --> 1:25:41.040 showed up um that method. You have to be super 1:25:41.080 --> 1:25:47.200 careful if you're surrounded by potentially hostile people. Anyone who's 1:25:47.280 --> 1:25:49.880 behind you is going to see that your phone camera 1:25:50.080 --> 1:25:52.800 is on. So it's something that you only want to 1:25:52.960 --> 1:25:56.479 use if people are on one side of you, or 1:25:56.520 --> 1:25:58.639 you know, you keep you you you use your body 1:25:58.640 --> 1:26:02.479 as a shield for certain for certain like angles be 1:26:02.560 --> 1:26:07.519 tricky for hoodie and uh increase your odds of success 1:26:07.560 --> 1:26:10.080 with that. But but but most often I would recommend 1:26:10.080 --> 1:26:12.040 against this method, especially if you're just starting out, because 1:26:12.120 --> 1:26:14.280 it is it is a lot more risky. Um. But 1:26:14.560 --> 1:26:16.840 when it does work, it can come in very handy. 1:26:17.439 --> 1:26:20.160 But but more often than not, using using like reflections 1:26:20.160 --> 1:26:23.759 like windows, mirrors, you know, like a car, windows, puddles 1:26:23.760 --> 1:26:27.240 on the ground, shadows, sound, all of these different methods 1:26:27.240 --> 1:26:30.519 of observing someone without looking directly at them are generally 1:26:30.720 --> 1:26:34.320 much much safer um and they can be very useful 1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:37.439 for for trying to track someone or just be aware 1:26:37.479 --> 1:26:41.160 of what they're looking at without looking directly at them. UM. 1:26:41.360 --> 1:26:43.920 Kind of more similar to like what I talked about 1:26:43.960 --> 1:26:47.800 in like the fictional opening we did for stealth is 1:26:47.880 --> 1:26:51.599 very dependent on what you know is trying to watch 1:26:51.640 --> 1:26:54.360 you write, like like how you need to be aware 1:26:54.439 --> 1:26:57.080 of the ways people are trying to detect you. Of 1:26:57.120 --> 1:27:01.439 course you're tracked back canine unit. It's very very different 1:27:01.439 --> 1:27:03.479 than just being being yeah, than being like chased down 1:27:03.479 --> 1:27:08.000 on foot um or you know, like security cameras. Of course, 1:27:08.040 --> 1:27:10.000 like online tracking which we're not we're not really getting 1:27:10.000 --> 1:27:12.519 into today. But you know, like being aware of where 1:27:12.520 --> 1:27:16.320 security cameras are mapped out, um can be can be 1:27:16.439 --> 1:27:19.000 very useful. Learning to learning to figure out where they 1:27:19.000 --> 1:27:21.800 are without looking directly at them can be useful. There's 1:27:21.960 --> 1:27:24.519 a lot of cities have websites that like map out 1:27:24.560 --> 1:27:26.880 where where all the cameras are. Um. I know there's 1:27:26.880 --> 1:27:29.559 one from Portland that you can like map out all 1:27:29.600 --> 1:27:31.800 of the cameras in downtown and then you can like 1:27:31.880 --> 1:27:35.519 plan like a route through downtown that has no cameras 1:27:35.520 --> 1:27:38.479 watching right there. There's only there's only very few routes 1:27:38.800 --> 1:27:42.320 that that actually have that, but but they do exist. Um. 1:27:42.520 --> 1:27:45.519 So learning to move in ways that make cameras less 1:27:45.560 --> 1:27:49.559 able to spot you, um, those that's definitely another kind 1:27:49.560 --> 1:27:52.280 of method of learning about stealth and learning about like 1:27:52.640 --> 1:27:57.200 how surveillance works. Looking directly at the camera, But that's 1:27:57.240 --> 1:28:00.320 that's that's definitely useful. Which intention to where they are, yeah, 1:28:00.320 --> 1:28:04.200 which plays into which plays into indirect observation. Um. But 1:28:04.240 --> 1:28:06.880 I mean this gets more tricky. We know when police 1:28:06.880 --> 1:28:11.240 are using like thermal drones. Uh, this is its whole whole, 1:28:11.320 --> 1:28:15.240 whole other side of things that it's very hard too. 1:28:15.360 --> 1:28:18.680 Sex side of thing is hard to combat. And it's yeah, 1:28:18.840 --> 1:28:20.519 there will be a point in time in which it 1:28:20.560 --> 1:28:25.200 becomes effectively impossible to the monitor for cameras. Yeah, there's 1:28:25.240 --> 1:28:27.679 like there's there's like a hierarchy of worry because yeah, 1:28:27.760 --> 1:28:29.640 if because if, like the n s A wants to 1:28:29.680 --> 1:28:32.880 find you, they will, but most often they're not, Like 1:28:32.920 --> 1:28:35.360 most often people are dealing with their local law enforcement unit. 1:28:35.640 --> 1:28:38.120 Most often people are not dealing with the FBI. Most 1:28:38.120 --> 1:28:40.800 people people usually aren't dealing with the FBI, CIA or 1:28:40.880 --> 1:28:42.960 n s A. If if they want to find you, 1:28:43.120 --> 1:28:46.200 they will. But if you can learn to only interact 1:28:46.240 --> 1:28:48.160 with your surroundings in a way that would only concern 1:28:48.200 --> 1:28:51.360 your local police department, that's much easier too. That's much 1:28:51.360 --> 1:28:54.439 easier to kind of combat against, um, because it's it's 1:28:54.479 --> 1:28:57.479 way easier to hide from you know, your local department 1:28:57.479 --> 1:29:01.479 than it is from the n s A. All right, Um, 1:29:01.560 --> 1:29:05.240 anything else? I think that pretty much covers everything. Yeah, 1:29:05.280 --> 1:29:08.600 I think that's a good that's a sode. It's a 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:12.600 cast that we have potted. Um all right, Um, we 1:29:12.680 --> 1:29:15.160 got any any plugables here to plug at the end 1:29:15.280 --> 1:29:20.280 before we before we roll out me. Yeah, you don't 1:29:20.280 --> 1:29:23.800 find me. Don't don't find him. This is the most 1:29:23.880 --> 1:29:27.160 visible you've ever been. Yeah, so is there any um, 1:29:27.360 --> 1:29:30.320 I don't know a fundraiser charity for someone else that 1:29:30.360 --> 1:29:36.120 you want to highlight? Not currently? No, you are? You 1:29:36.160 --> 1:29:39.439 do try to be uh you do, try to be 1:29:39.439 --> 1:29:43.800 a virtual ninja. All right, Well, I'll plug something. One 1:29:43.800 --> 1:29:47.160 of our fans is putting together a graphic novel about 1:29:47.360 --> 1:29:51.240 the famed anarchist militant of the Spanish Civil War. Win 1:29:51.280 --> 1:29:53.320 even showed a d Ruty. So if you just go 1:29:53.400 --> 1:29:56.719 to type d Ruty into Kickstarter, you'll find the graphic 1:29:56.760 --> 1:30:01.160 novel Kickstarter. Um, check it out. It's cool. Yeah, and 1:30:01.200 --> 1:30:03.760 I guess other things. I'll close with his learned to 1:30:03.800 --> 1:30:08.520 walk quietly, learn to observe, learn to observe your surroundings. Um, 1:30:08.760 --> 1:30:12.679 keep these things, practice, practice, practice with other people. Don't don't. 1:30:12.720 --> 1:30:15.040 Don't do this alone. It's really useful to have stealth 1:30:15.080 --> 1:30:18.839 be a collaborative process, because stealth isn't Stealth isn't by itself, 1:30:18.880 --> 1:30:21.960 isn't just about you. It's about you and your whole environment. Um, 1:30:22.160 --> 1:30:28.200 collaborate with the CVS clerk. When you robbed the CVS stealthily. 1:30:29.840 --> 1:30:32.160 That is that is a different podcast I'm working on. 1:30:32.479 --> 1:30:37.080 Is that How to Shop the Shoplifting Cast? I mean, yeah, 1:30:37.120 --> 1:30:40.559 that is something I will pitch very soon. Anyway, I've 1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:44.439 had trouble getting sponsors for the Shoplifting podcast, I will 1:30:44.479 --> 1:30:47.080 tell you that. And it's difficult. If you could actually 1:30:47.120 --> 1:30:51.920 get CVS to sponsor that big shoplifting, I mean, we 1:30:51.920 --> 1:30:53.960 are giving them a lot of free advertising if if 1:30:53.960 --> 1:30:57.519 if it does if it does happen. Anyway, most people 1:30:57.520 --> 1:31:01.439 who shoplift also spend. That's true. That is one of 1:31:01.479 --> 1:31:03.880 the best ways to shoplift is to buy other things. 1:31:03.880 --> 1:31:07.240 In this story, I'm seeing I'm already giving out advice. Um, yeah, 1:31:07.360 --> 1:31:10.880 that that is how I always shoplifted back when I shoplifted, Yeah, 1:31:10.880 --> 1:31:13.080 back when I did that twenty years ago. That's what. 1:31:13.320 --> 1:31:15.200 That's how I did it as well. I feel like 1:31:15.280 --> 1:31:18.040 if Sophie were here, she'd be trying to back pedal 1:31:18.200 --> 1:31:21.840 right now and stop you guys. So if you support shoplifting, 1:31:21.880 --> 1:31:26.720 this is a very pro shoplifting podcast. Anyway, that's the podcast. 1:31:36.680 --> 1:31:39.040 You were out of town when the last cop left Seattle. 1:31:39.600 --> 1:31:43.080 It had been unseasonably cool that week. The seventy degrees 1:31:43.080 --> 1:31:44.960 of old and not the ven you had come to 1:31:45.040 --> 1:31:48.280 dread every summer. But you'd already promised you'd visit your 1:31:48.280 --> 1:31:51.040 family in Montana, and so when the riots started in 1:31:51.040 --> 1:31:53.960 the National Guard open fire into the crowd, you watched 1:31:53.960 --> 1:31:57.000 it on Twitter from your couch like everyone else. The 1:31:57.040 --> 1:32:00.519 Second Battle of Seattle, they were calling it. You wondered 1:32:00.520 --> 1:32:03.360 briefly what the first one was. They've been fighting in 1:32:03.400 --> 1:32:06.960 Portland too, some kind of massacre in Oakland, and no 1:32:06.960 --> 1:32:09.440 one was quite sure what was happening in that Appa Valley. 1:32:09.640 --> 1:32:13.080 Couldn't be anything good, you thought, But it was Seattle. 1:32:13.120 --> 1:32:16.160 Everyone was talking about. The mayor fled the city and 1:32:16.200 --> 1:32:18.759 the helicopter when it became clear the police were losing. 1:32:19.600 --> 1:32:23.320 After that, the cops had simply broken retreated across the Cascades. 1:32:24.080 --> 1:32:26.280 No one knew who was running the city now, and 1:32:26.320 --> 1:32:27.800 you sure as hell didn't want to be the one 1:32:27.800 --> 1:32:31.800 to find out. But after two weeks, you've burned through 1:32:31.800 --> 1:32:34.640 every vacation day in every favor you'd ever accumulated at 1:32:34.640 --> 1:32:39.360 the hospital, and besides, the rent was due. No one 1:32:39.439 --> 1:32:41.639 was sure if the pilstal service was even still functioning, 1:32:41.840 --> 1:32:44.600 and with the eviction moratorium lifted. You weren't going to 1:32:44.720 --> 1:32:46.760 risk getting evicted because you weren't there to hand your 1:32:46.840 --> 1:32:52.240 landlord a check. So with ray resignation, you pile into 1:32:52.240 --> 1:32:56.240 your battered car and head towards no Qualmy Pass. What 1:32:56.360 --> 1:32:58.519 surprised you most when you hit Seattle was the art 1:32:59.160 --> 1:33:01.880 you've been expecting. Burnt out buildings and streets filled with 1:33:01.920 --> 1:33:05.080 burning cars, and there were some A few streets were 1:33:05.120 --> 1:33:08.719 still blocked by what looked like improvised barricades, but every 1:33:08.760 --> 1:33:11.160 surface of every building, it seemed, had some kind of 1:33:11.240 --> 1:33:14.320 mirror on it. Someone, and no one seemed to be 1:33:14.400 --> 1:33:17.200 quite sure who had first come up with the idea, 1:33:17.720 --> 1:33:20.120 had blocked off an entire street up near Capitol Hill, 1:33:20.160 --> 1:33:24.400 and people were painstakingly painting portraits of every protester killed 1:33:24.400 --> 1:33:28.200 in the fighting and Seattle on it. As you walked past, 1:33:28.680 --> 1:33:31.400 they were discussing doing the same for the dead in Oakland. 1:33:32.200 --> 1:33:34.880 The second surprise came when you tried to pay your rent. 1:33:35.640 --> 1:33:37.800 A woman you've never seen before was sitting at the 1:33:37.880 --> 1:33:41.040 office's reception desk. When you tried to handle your check, 1:33:41.120 --> 1:33:43.559 she laughed and handed it back to you, explaining that 1:33:43.600 --> 1:33:46.040 after the cops fled. The local tenants union had taking 1:33:46.080 --> 1:33:48.040 over most of the apartments in the city and placed 1:33:48.040 --> 1:33:51.479 them in something it called a Community land Trust. You 1:33:51.520 --> 1:33:53.680 didn't quite get the details, but no one was going 1:33:53.680 --> 1:33:57.320 to evict you, so you decided to just take the win. Besides, 1:33:57.680 --> 1:33:59.920 your friend had convinced you to do some child care 1:34:00.040 --> 1:34:02.040 the tenants union in college, and they always seemed like 1:34:02.040 --> 1:34:04.160 a decent sort, so it didn't seem to be any 1:34:04.160 --> 1:34:09.400 immediate cause for concern. The hospital was another matter. Entirely 1:34:10.120 --> 1:34:11.920 from what you could gather, there had been some kind 1:34:11.960 --> 1:34:14.920 of labor dispute between the chaos. Management seemed to have 1:34:15.000 --> 1:34:17.360 fired a group of nurses for giving injured protester or 1:34:17.439 --> 1:34:21.439 shelter from the police. Your ward had already been understaff 1:34:21.479 --> 1:34:25.040 due to COVID and budget cuts. Now the situation was 1:34:25.040 --> 1:34:29.160 int tolerable. Where still many of the senior administrators had 1:34:29.160 --> 1:34:31.720 fled the city with the police, no one seemed to 1:34:31.720 --> 1:34:34.439 know who was in charge. Supplies were starting to run low, 1:34:34.960 --> 1:34:37.919 and with so many administrators missing in the insurance situation 1:34:38.000 --> 1:34:40.840 completely up in the air. On account of nobody being 1:34:40.960 --> 1:34:43.040 entirely sure if Seattle was even still part of the 1:34:43.080 --> 1:34:45.880 United States, it wasn't clear if anyone was going to 1:34:45.920 --> 1:34:48.960 get paid, So when a co worker pulled you aside 1:34:48.960 --> 1:34:52.200 and asked if you'd be interested in doing something about 1:34:52.200 --> 1:34:55.840 the management problem, you figured, what the hell, Maybe it 1:34:55.880 --> 1:34:58.679 was time for a change. It wasn't like it could 1:34:58.680 --> 1:35:03.360 possibly make anything worse. The fired nurses, it turned out, 1:35:03.520 --> 1:35:06.120 had started to set up a community health center with 1:35:06.200 --> 1:35:09.559 the help of the local neighborhood council. But some of 1:35:09.600 --> 1:35:11.920 the nurses still working at the hospital had another idea. 1:35:13.040 --> 1:35:15.559 Why not just turn the hospital into the community health center. 1:35:16.400 --> 1:35:19.160 After all, the hospital already had more equipment than any 1:35:19.160 --> 1:35:22.559 new center could possibly assemble. All they needed was some 1:35:22.600 --> 1:35:24.800 help from the community, and the whole thing could be 1:35:24.880 --> 1:35:28.160 run by a council of the hospital workers. Insurance companies 1:35:28.200 --> 1:35:32.559 be damned. Besides, if all the hospitals started pulling their 1:35:32.560 --> 1:35:34.880 resources together, they might be able to solve some of 1:35:34.880 --> 1:35:39.520 the shortages. At the mention of solving the supply shortages, 1:35:40.000 --> 1:35:42.840 even the more skeptical workers started to come around. By 1:35:42.840 --> 1:35:46.080 the next morning, the Seattle Hospital Workers Council was marching 1:35:46.080 --> 1:35:51.040 on the hospital. The remaining management found out somehow, and 1:35:51.080 --> 1:35:54.439 tried one final lockout to hold onto their property. But 1:35:54.479 --> 1:35:57.120 as you saw yet another column of protesters joining the 1:35:57.120 --> 1:36:00.840 crowd surrounding the hospital, you knew this wasn't their city 1:36:00.880 --> 1:36:09.439 any longer. On April eighteen, two thousand, one, military police 1:36:09.439 --> 1:36:12.080 in the Kabylia region of Algeria shot an eighteen year 1:36:12.080 --> 1:36:16.519 old high school students. Almost immediately, hundreds of thousands of 1:36:16.520 --> 1:36:19.559 people took to the street, chanting, you can't kill us, 1:36:19.600 --> 1:36:22.160 we are already dead at the lines of policemen assembled 1:36:22.200 --> 1:36:24.960 to attack them. The police would kill over a hundred 1:36:25.040 --> 1:36:27.719 people and severely wound five thousand more in the months 1:36:27.720 --> 1:36:30.920 long battle for control of the streets that followed, but 1:36:31.000 --> 1:36:35.679 protesters burned police stations, government offices, courts, and the offices 1:36:35.720 --> 1:36:38.760 of Islamic fundamentalist parties until the government agreed to give 1:36:38.760 --> 1:36:43.080 ethnic minority groups language and cultural rights. The hated military 1:36:43.120 --> 1:36:46.320 police were driven from the region entirely, and so few 1:36:46.360 --> 1:36:49.839 regular police stations survived the uprising. At the regular police 1:36:49.880 --> 1:36:53.640 likewise ceased to function across broad swaths of Kabilia. They 1:36:53.680 --> 1:36:56.600 were replaced on a local village level by self organized 1:36:56.640 --> 1:36:59.920 security committees, which would assemble on the rare occasion. Travel 1:37:00.000 --> 1:37:04.840 will emerged. Contrary to the expectations of the state crime plummeted, 1:37:05.920 --> 1:37:09.719 but the Algerian government otherwise continued to function as usual 1:37:09.760 --> 1:37:12.479 for over a decade until the local government in a 1:37:12.520 --> 1:37:17.559 small region, cover Baca, attempted the regular local elections. After 1:37:17.640 --> 1:37:20.439 banning the most popular political party in the region, they 1:37:20.479 --> 1:37:25.960 installed an unpopular coalition governments. The people of Barbaca responded 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:28.640 by storming the city hall, seizing control of it and 1:37:28.680 --> 1:37:31.799 setting up a democratic General Assembly inside the newly dubbed 1:37:32.040 --> 1:37:35.960 House of the People to replace the existing government. This 1:37:36.040 --> 1:37:38.960 was dual power in its original sense, the Council of 1:37:39.000 --> 1:37:43.840 the People facing off against an increasingly illegitimate parliamentary representative 1:37:44.320 --> 1:37:46.240 in a struggle for control over the fate of a 1:37:46.240 --> 1:37:50.280 new society. If you google dual power, you are likely 1:37:50.320 --> 1:37:53.519 to encounter a pamphlet written by Vladimir Lenin entitled The 1:37:53.600 --> 1:37:57.320 Dual Power, describing the conundrum of the situation following the 1:37:57.320 --> 1:38:02.120 First Russian Revolution in February of nineteen after the overthrow 1:38:02.160 --> 1:38:06.040 of the Czar, political power was split between two competing bodies. 1:38:06.800 --> 1:38:09.800 On the one side, a new provisional government of liberal 1:38:09.880 --> 1:38:13.720 and social democratic politicians holdovers from the old Duma from 1:38:13.720 --> 1:38:17.880 the previous regime. On the other side, revolutionary social forces 1:38:17.960 --> 1:38:22.879 rallying around assemblies popular power called soviets, which were councils 1:38:22.880 --> 1:38:26.840 of delegates sent by directly democratic factories, soldiers and sailors committees. 1:38:27.520 --> 1:38:30.720 Lenin solve this as a situation to be overcome by 1:38:30.720 --> 1:38:34.080 the seizure of state power by Socialist Party. For Lenin 1:38:34.120 --> 1:38:37.040 and his Bolsheviks, dual power was a problem because, after 1:38:37.080 --> 1:38:39.200 the Czar's state ceased to exist in the middle of 1:38:39.200 --> 1:38:42.479 the World War, the new provisional government failed to fill 1:38:42.520 --> 1:38:46.400 the vacuum left in its wake by its collapse. To Lenin, 1:38:46.640 --> 1:38:50.680 the solution was obvious, fill that vacuum with Lenin. For 1:38:50.760 --> 1:38:53.400 the peasants, soldiers, and workers, who made up the majority 1:38:53.439 --> 1:38:57.879 of Russia's population, however, dual power was their first fleeting 1:38:57.920 --> 1:39:02.040 taste of freedom and autonomous control over their lives. Lennon 1:39:02.160 --> 1:39:05.280 used the soviets to seize power, but almost immediately began 1:39:05.320 --> 1:39:09.040 to turn on these democratic assemblies of popular autonomy. Over 1:39:09.080 --> 1:39:11.760 the course of the Russian Civil War, Lennon and the 1:39:11.800 --> 1:39:15.160 Bolsheviks strip power away from the workers, peasants, and soldiers, 1:39:15.920 --> 1:39:19.320 sometimes by bureaucratic fiat, often at the point of a bayonet, 1:39:19.800 --> 1:39:22.559 until the Soviet have been stripped of all meeting in 1:39:22.600 --> 1:39:25.559 the very state named after their democratic form, and became 1:39:25.600 --> 1:39:29.639 synonymous with dictatorship. Dual power today draws from the potential 1:39:29.680 --> 1:39:33.120 of that post revolutionary crisis from the bottom up direct 1:39:33.160 --> 1:39:35.880 democracy that was so threatening to the social order that 1:39:35.960 --> 1:39:39.519 Bolshevik revolutionaries and Czar's Police by his alike conspired to 1:39:39.560 --> 1:39:43.040 wipe them from the historical record. Just as Russia was 1:39:43.080 --> 1:39:45.760 haunted by the memory of the French communes, so is 1:39:45.800 --> 1:39:48.479 America today haunted by a memory of dual power that, 1:39:48.520 --> 1:39:52.200 against all lodge refuses to die. We are, after all, 1:39:52.479 --> 1:39:55.000 still ruled by a greedy, bloodthirsty, and out of touch 1:39:55.040 --> 1:39:56.920 elite who have chosen the march us to our deaths 1:39:56.960 --> 1:39:59.000 by the hundreds of thousands by forcing us back to 1:39:59.040 --> 1:40:02.720 work doing a plague. But the Russian Revolution is as 1:40:02.720 --> 1:40:05.599 far away from us today as Napoleon and his brass 1:40:05.680 --> 1:40:08.719 cannons were from the Russian revolutionaries and their machine guns. 1:40:09.680 --> 1:40:12.720 Times have changed. There is no Bolshevik party waiting in 1:40:12.720 --> 1:40:15.720 the wings to seize power as the state crumbles. The 1:40:15.840 --> 1:40:17.800 vacuum of the state leaves in its wake as its 1:40:17.840 --> 1:40:21.599 power deteriorates, be filled by any number of organizations, most 1:40:21.640 --> 1:40:24.040 even more hostile to the working class and the Bolsheviks 1:40:24.040 --> 1:40:26.839 had been. It could be war lords with the personal 1:40:26.880 --> 1:40:29.479 allegiance of the remains of the military. It could be 1:40:29.600 --> 1:40:33.599 organized crime. It could be religious fundamentalist militias. Most likely, 1:40:33.640 --> 1:40:35.960 it will be an uneasy combination of all of the above. 1:40:37.280 --> 1:40:41.400 Or it could be you. It could be your family, 1:40:41.680 --> 1:40:45.240 your friends, your neighbors, your co workers, the person you 1:40:45.280 --> 1:40:47.200 waved here every morning at the bus stop when you're 1:40:47.200 --> 1:40:50.000 on your way to work. The past to that world, 1:40:50.560 --> 1:40:53.400 the world run not by capitalists in their cops or 1:40:53.439 --> 1:40:56.680 by war lords in their armies, but by autonomous communities 1:40:56.720 --> 1:40:59.680 free to decide for themselves what to produce and how 1:40:59.680 --> 1:41:01.960 to bet, to use their resources, to care for each other. 1:41:02.560 --> 1:41:06.160 Is dual power in the twenty first century. At its core, 1:41:06.479 --> 1:41:09.320 dual power is about creating a counter power against the state. 1:41:10.160 --> 1:41:13.599 During the Russian Revolution, this counterpower was formed essentially by 1:41:13.640 --> 1:41:17.439 historical accidents, as two governing bodies emerged from the course 1:41:17.479 --> 1:41:21.400 of the Febrarian Revolution. But modern dual power does not 1:41:21.479 --> 1:41:24.080 arise from the whims of the course of revolution or 1:41:24.120 --> 1:41:26.800 from an innate instinct of the working class. It is 1:41:26.840 --> 1:41:30.080 something we've built together by creating organizations that resist the 1:41:30.120 --> 1:41:34.760 power of the structures of violence, capitalism, racism, homophobia, and 1:41:34.800 --> 1:41:39.080 the state name a few that control this world. Dual 1:41:39.120 --> 1:41:42.880 power organizations can take many forms, from tennis unions, the 1:41:42.920 --> 1:41:48.360 debtors councils, childcare cooperatives, to land occupations, workers councils, to 1:41:48.400 --> 1:41:51.879 rank and file labor unions, mutual aid networks to community 1:41:51.920 --> 1:41:57.479 self defense organizations. These organizations seek to build autonomy from 1:41:57.479 --> 1:42:00.840 and against capitalism. In the state alone, there are no 1:42:00.920 --> 1:42:03.320 match for the state's world power to inflict violence and 1:42:03.400 --> 1:42:07.200 corporate control over our resources. But by joining together to 1:42:07.240 --> 1:42:10.760 form federations and pooling their resources and expertise to coordinate 1:42:10.800 --> 1:42:13.840 their efforts, they can become a powerful enough force to 1:42:13.920 --> 1:42:18.200 challenge the state both directly and indirectly. These dual power 1:42:18.320 --> 1:42:21.920 organizations are designed to be the state's successor. As the 1:42:21.960 --> 1:42:24.840 industrial workers of the world famously put it, they form 1:42:24.920 --> 1:42:27.000 the structure of the new society and the shell of 1:42:27.040 --> 1:42:30.280 the old. In order to fulfill that task, they take 1:42:30.280 --> 1:42:33.160 the shape of new society they set to create. Academics 1:42:33.200 --> 1:42:37.280 called this prefigurative politics, organizing that employs the values and 1:42:37.400 --> 1:42:40.200 organizational structures that they seek to create in the world. 1:42:41.000 --> 1:42:43.400 As we will discuss in the next episode, there are 1:42:43.479 --> 1:42:46.400 right wing forms of both dual power and profigative politics, 1:42:47.880 --> 1:42:50.840 but for most of the people who employ it, prefigurative 1:42:50.880 --> 1:42:56.560 politics means creating direct democratic institutions without bosses, managers, bureaucrats, 1:42:56.720 --> 1:43:00.559 or party apparatus. The means of career aiding the new 1:43:00.600 --> 1:43:05.200 world are thus the same as the ends. Dual power 1:43:05.280 --> 1:43:09.280 organizations serve multiple purposes. Their long term goal is to 1:43:09.320 --> 1:43:12.240 replace the state and the corporation with free and autonomous 1:43:12.280 --> 1:43:16.400 forms of organization. One's organized and powerful enough to protect 1:43:16.439 --> 1:43:19.479 themselves and manage the logistical challenges of a new world 1:43:20.040 --> 1:43:23.120 with previous forms of organization and power no longer exist. 1:43:24.680 --> 1:43:27.360 But even reaching a point where this is remotely plausible 1:43:28.000 --> 1:43:32.560 requires not just the painstaking construction of counterpower and organization 1:43:32.600 --> 1:43:36.400 out of a fragmented American population. It requires a profound 1:43:36.439 --> 1:43:40.680 cultural transformation and how we make decisions. As the anthropologist 1:43:40.720 --> 1:43:44.160 David Graeber put it, it is assumed in many parts 1:43:44.160 --> 1:43:46.320 of the world that democracy is a group of people 1:43:46.360 --> 1:43:49.200 facing a certain problem who come together to solve it 1:43:49.200 --> 1:43:51.840 in a way where everyone has an equals say, it's 1:43:51.880 --> 1:43:54.360 true that most Americans think of themselves as living in 1:43:54.360 --> 1:43:57.400 a democratic country. When put the last time that any 1:43:57.439 --> 1:43:59.920 Americans actually sat down and came to a collective to 1:44:00.000 --> 1:44:03.479 decision maybe if they were ordering pizza, but basically never 1:44:05.200 --> 1:44:09.000 Dual power organizations thus also service schools for democracy where 1:44:09.000 --> 1:44:12.599 people can learn, experiment with, create, and spread their own 1:44:12.640 --> 1:44:16.919 forms of democracy and collective decision making. When these spaces 1:44:16.920 --> 1:44:21.719 of democratic experimentation are functioning properly, their very organizational structure 1:44:21.760 --> 1:44:24.160 serves as a kind of recruitment tool. This was the 1:44:24.160 --> 1:44:27.720 original theory behind Occupy Wall Street, that democracy and the 1:44:27.760 --> 1:44:31.160 experience of autonomy were contagious and would spread rapidly as 1:44:31.240 --> 1:44:35.600 more and more curious people experienced it for themselves. That experience, 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:38.000 in turn, would create a new generation of people trained 1:44:38.000 --> 1:44:43.040 in democratic practices who could go forth and transforming the world. Obviously, 1:44:43.080 --> 1:44:46.639 this didn't quite happen. Occupies model of democracy was limited 1:44:46.680 --> 1:44:48.920 in many ways, not the least of which was that 1:44:48.960 --> 1:44:51.560 it required a public, physical meeting space that could be 1:44:51.560 --> 1:44:55.120 closed down by police violence. But the initial premise worked 1:44:55.960 --> 1:44:58.479 Occupy itself, of course, had been inspired by the mass 1:44:58.520 --> 1:45:01.839 democratic assemblies in Spain. In Greece in two thousand eleven 1:45:02.680 --> 1:45:06.120 and the direct democratic coops and factory occupations that engulfed 1:45:06.240 --> 1:45:09.439 Argentina for the better part of the two thousand's. At 1:45:09.479 --> 1:45:13.440 the most basic, short term level, however, dual power organizations 1:45:13.439 --> 1:45:17.320 are designed me people's needs. The cornerstone of this effort 1:45:17.360 --> 1:45:20.400 is mutual aid. Probably the most famous example of such 1:45:20.439 --> 1:45:24.000 a project with the Black Panther Party survival programs. Former 1:45:24.040 --> 1:45:27.880 Black Panther Janina Irvine describes them in detail. The Black 1:45:27.920 --> 1:45:30.960 Panther Party survival programs were, in fact an example of 1:45:31.000 --> 1:45:33.800 an effort, a successful effort, while it lasted to create 1:45:33.880 --> 1:45:36.920 dual power in the United States. The Black Panther Party 1:45:36.960 --> 1:45:40.080 had a school, had free food programs. One of its 1:45:40.160 --> 1:45:43.960 most respected survival programs was a breakfast for children, which 1:45:44.000 --> 1:45:46.799 was overall a response to hunger and poverty in the country, 1:45:46.840 --> 1:45:51.599 particularly among poor, low income black people. We had free 1:45:51.600 --> 1:45:55.480 medical clinics in Winston Salem, North Carolina. We had free ambulances, 1:45:55.520 --> 1:45:58.080 free past control, free shoes, we had free bussing to 1:45:58.200 --> 1:46:01.879 prison programs, legal aid programs to help people get attorneys 1:46:01.920 --> 1:46:04.080 who needed them. And we had a program that was 1:46:04.120 --> 1:46:07.600 called the Safe Program Seniors against a fearful environment in 1:46:07.640 --> 1:46:10.920 which we provided free transportation and escort service the senior 1:46:10.920 --> 1:46:13.200 citizens who needed to get out and take care of 1:46:13.240 --> 1:46:16.160 their errands their business. They were often being attacked, so 1:46:16.240 --> 1:46:19.439 this was a forre protection for them. The Panthers were 1:46:19.439 --> 1:46:23.760 able to grow their influence by keeping their communities safe, healthy, 1:46:23.760 --> 1:46:27.840 cared for, and increasingly autonomous for the state. But most importantly, 1:46:28.160 --> 1:46:31.679 they were able to keep people alive. As Black Panthers 1:46:31.720 --> 1:46:35.759 co founder Hue P. Newton famously said, these survival programs 1:46:35.760 --> 1:46:38.120 satisfy the deep needs of the community, but they are 1:46:38.160 --> 1:46:40.760 not solutions to our problem. That is why we call 1:46:40.840 --> 1:46:46.559 them survival programs meeting survival pending revolution. The existence of 1:46:46.600 --> 1:46:50.919 the survival programs themselves reflect the necessity of keeping people alive, 1:46:51.680 --> 1:46:53.880 especially people who the state would rather kill or leave 1:46:53.960 --> 1:46:58.000 to die for building any kind of power. These programs 1:46:58.160 --> 1:47:03.000 are also necessarily insufficient. No mutual aid program, no autonomous project, 1:47:03.040 --> 1:47:07.040 no liberated territory can provide for the entire community. While 1:47:07.080 --> 1:47:11.760 the corporation's capitalists and states maintain their stranglehold over the 1:47:11.840 --> 1:47:15.960 resources and production capacity at the working class, collectively created 1:47:16.000 --> 1:47:21.680 over centuries of grueling labor or struggle, dual power more 1:47:21.720 --> 1:47:24.800 than just survival, is about building the counter power to 1:47:24.840 --> 1:47:29.760 take it back. Building powers withdraws the line between what 1:47:29.960 --> 1:47:33.080 is and isn't dual power. Growing food for you and 1:47:33.120 --> 1:47:35.080 your friends, make cut down on bills, and make some 1:47:35.160 --> 1:47:39.200 killer pesto, but it's not necessarily challenging the capitalist system. 1:47:40.439 --> 1:47:43.639 Autonomy for its own sake is not necessarily dual power 1:47:44.760 --> 1:47:48.519 if it doesn't actively aid in struggle or better organize 1:47:48.560 --> 1:47:51.679 the community. That from the perspective of building counter power, 1:47:52.040 --> 1:47:56.240 that autonomy is meaningless. Making food for striking workers to 1:47:56.280 --> 1:47:59.559 allow them to stay on strike longer is building dual power. 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:04.240 We're simply producing it for general consumption is not. While 1:48:04.280 --> 1:48:08.360 dual power organizations necessarily serve the needs of the community, 1:48:08.400 --> 1:48:10.640 they must also be able to pivot and attack the 1:48:10.640 --> 1:48:13.880 state in capital and provide solidarity and mutual aid to 1:48:13.960 --> 1:48:17.120 those in their community who are already in struggle, or 1:48:17.320 --> 1:48:21.479 they simply aren' dual power organizations at all. The simplest 1:48:21.520 --> 1:48:23.960 solution to this problem, of course, is to organize around 1:48:23.960 --> 1:48:27.280 a specific side of resistance. Organizations that build up the 1:48:27.320 --> 1:48:31.160 capacity to fight can emerge from almost anywhere. The Symbiosis 1:48:31.200 --> 1:48:35.080 Research Collective described how dual power organizations emerge from Palestinian 1:48:35.120 --> 1:48:38.160 prison organizing bring the First into Fata and uprising against 1:48:38.160 --> 1:48:42.479 the Israeli governments in late nineteen eighties. Most discussion of 1:48:42.520 --> 1:48:44.880 the First into Fata focuses on the role of mass 1:48:44.920 --> 1:48:49.599 protests in making Palestinian society ungovernable for the Israeli occupying forces. 1:48:50.720 --> 1:48:53.920 Less discussed is the role of community organizations of mutual 1:48:53.960 --> 1:48:58.280 aid and confederated participatory democracy and making such mass protests possible. 1:48:59.360 --> 1:49:02.800 Organizing for within the political system was a political incubator 1:49:03.600 --> 1:49:07.280 of the Palestinian resistance movement and offers a microcosmic example 1:49:07.320 --> 1:49:10.240 of the developments of dual power in the much larger 1:49:10.280 --> 1:49:14.839 prison of the occupation with hunger strikes. Political prisoners eventually 1:49:14.840 --> 1:49:17.960 won concessions for their own self administration within the prisons. 1:49:18.640 --> 1:49:23.120 They assembled structures of political organization and representation, forced prison 1:49:23.160 --> 1:49:27.120 authorities to recognize their representatives, and developed a division of 1:49:27.200 --> 1:49:32.240 labor around hygiene, education and other daily tasks. Palestinian prisoners 1:49:32.320 --> 1:49:36.320 described this arrangement as internal organization, similar to the concept 1:49:36.320 --> 1:49:40.120 of dual power. Even the least free of circumstances, these 1:49:40.120 --> 1:49:43.280 prisoners carved out space for self governments and created the 1:49:43.280 --> 1:49:47.840 preconditions to revolutionary struggle. Prisoners taught and studied everything from 1:49:47.840 --> 1:49:52.040 Palestinian history to Marxist the political economy, often from eight 1:49:52.040 --> 1:49:55.639 to fourteen hours per day. As freshly educated and trained 1:49:55.680 --> 1:49:59.639 political activists were released back into society, the resistance movement 1:49:59.640 --> 1:50:03.639 was gal vanized. Illiterate teenage boys arrested for throwing stones 1:50:03.760 --> 1:50:07.200 re entered the fray months later as committed, competent organizers 1:50:07.200 --> 1:50:12.840 who had studied movement building, strategic resistance, and dialectical materialism. Meanwhile, 1:50:13.040 --> 1:50:17.400 the organizing context outside of the prison transformed dramatically. Saleh 1:50:17.400 --> 1:50:22.960 Abou laban of Palestinian political prisoner from nineteen seventy until nine, stated, 1:50:23.479 --> 1:50:25.960 when I entered the prison, there wasn't a national movement. 1:50:27.160 --> 1:50:30.639 There were only underground cells that performed clandestine lee. When 1:50:30.640 --> 1:50:33.559 I got out, I found a world full of organizers, committees, 1:50:33.560 --> 1:50:37.479 and community institutions. Central to this new world of community 1:50:37.560 --> 1:50:41.439 organizing was the Palestinian labor movement. Unions reformed out of 1:50:41.439 --> 1:50:44.880 workers places of residents rather than workplaces, because migrant labor 1:50:44.960 --> 1:50:48.280 was prevalence in Palestinian unionism within Israel had been criminalized. 1:50:49.360 --> 1:50:52.400 Unions then formed strong alliances with local organizations in the 1:50:52.479 --> 1:50:56.759 national movement. With rapid growth in the early nineteen eighties, 1:50:57.720 --> 1:51:00.800 labor unions found it necessary to to centralize and democratize 1:51:00.800 --> 1:51:04.600 their structures to become more resilient as Israeli repression intensified 1:51:04.600 --> 1:51:08.559 against union leaders and organizers. These local unions were networked 1:51:08.560 --> 1:51:12.120 together through the Palestinian Communist Party and the Workers Unity Block, 1:51:12.520 --> 1:51:15.400 creating a web of labor organizers and community groups that 1:51:15.439 --> 1:51:18.680 linked their class struggle to the larger project of national liberation. 1:51:19.760 --> 1:51:23.240 This wave of resistance, carried out largely outside the purview 1:51:23.280 --> 1:51:26.920 of the major Palestinian political parties, showed that even communities 1:51:26.960 --> 1:51:30.560 and the most dire circumstances can assemble astounding levels of 1:51:30.680 --> 1:51:34.040 organization and resistance, as was also true in the United States. 1:51:34.040 --> 1:51:37.560 Although today the memory of these prison radicals is largely forgotten, 1:51:37.840 --> 1:51:41.439 Palestinian organizing emerged from the sites of deepest depression in 1:51:41.479 --> 1:51:45.200 their society. But this kind and level of organization is 1:51:45.240 --> 1:51:48.040 not just the property of the left, and in Part 1:51:48.080 --> 1:51:50.400 two we'll see what happens when the right gets hold 1:51:50.400 --> 1:52:02.920 of it. It's been three months since you and your 1:52:02.920 --> 1:52:06.000 co workers took control of the hospital. Things aren't back 1:52:06.000 --> 1:52:08.960 to normal yet. You're not even really sure what normal 1:52:09.080 --> 1:52:11.840 is anymore. But the days have fallen into a kind 1:52:11.920 --> 1:52:14.760 of routine. It's Thursday, which means it's your turn to 1:52:14.800 --> 1:52:17.200 go report back to what a friend jokingly referred to 1:52:17.320 --> 1:52:20.559 as the Endless Meeting Assembly was now forever known as 1:52:20.560 --> 1:52:22.799 the e m A. The e m A is technically 1:52:22.840 --> 1:52:25.320 the closest thing left to a central government in Seattle. 1:52:25.600 --> 1:52:28.200 It was formed as a sort of coordinating council between 1:52:28.240 --> 1:52:31.840 the various organizations and workers councils that had emerged or 1:52:31.880 --> 1:52:34.680 simply emerged from the woodworks in the wake of the 1:52:34.720 --> 1:52:39.160 collapse of the police. Two things have become clear very quickly. One, 1:52:39.640 --> 1:52:42.160 there was need for some kind of coordinating committee between 1:52:42.200 --> 1:52:45.320 the different bodies to The only people who had any 1:52:45.400 --> 1:52:47.479 idea what was going on in their portion of the 1:52:47.479 --> 1:52:50.000 city or in their workplace were the members of the 1:52:50.040 --> 1:52:52.519 local council, which meant there was no way in hell 1:52:52.600 --> 1:52:55.080 any kind of central apparatus could dictate to them what 1:52:55.160 --> 1:52:57.680 actually needed to be done. There just wasn't a way 1:52:57.720 --> 1:53:01.160 to move the information around. The solution have been decentralization. 1:53:01.520 --> 1:53:04.040 Let the councils do their work, let them work out 1:53:04.040 --> 1:53:06.360 who they needed to talk to, but make sure there 1:53:06.400 --> 1:53:08.400 was some kind of daily council that people could show 1:53:08.439 --> 1:53:10.800 up to. Were the various groups we do report backs 1:53:10.800 --> 1:53:12.840 and what they were doing and what they needed. The 1:53:12.880 --> 1:53:16.080 structure was messy, but it mostly worked, and at least 1:53:16.120 --> 1:53:18.280 someone had had the idea to make sure if the 1:53:18.320 --> 1:53:21.559 delegate to the e m A rotated so one person 1:53:21.680 --> 1:53:24.760 wasn't stuck spending after life showing up every day. The 1:53:24.840 --> 1:53:28.080 problem really was the same problem you've been dealing with 1:53:28.240 --> 1:53:31.760 for months now. Even with the pooling of resources and 1:53:31.800 --> 1:53:35.599 people donating their last precious American dollars to paying people 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:38.800 to import more supplies, the blockade was taking its toll. 1:53:39.240 --> 1:53:41.640 Nobody wanted to try to force their way through the 1:53:41.640 --> 1:53:44.640 blockades and the cascades. There's been some attempts to get 1:53:44.640 --> 1:53:47.320 in touch with groups in Portland's, but the control map 1:53:47.560 --> 1:53:49.559 was so ugly there was no real chance of getting 1:53:49.600 --> 1:53:54.920 any assistance. Besides, the real problem was the port. When 1:53:54.960 --> 1:53:57.400 the cops had fled, the ships should simply stop coming. 1:53:57.840 --> 1:54:01.360 They're routed further south, any of them to Oakland, or 1:54:01.400 --> 1:54:04.720 so you'd heard. The logistics lines were collapsing faster than 1:54:04.720 --> 1:54:07.080 anyone could piece them back together. What the long term 1:54:07.080 --> 1:54:10.760 consequences would be, no one knew, but something was going 1:54:10.800 --> 1:54:13.040 to have to change. The calls to start engaging in 1:54:13.080 --> 1:54:16.760 piracy were only half oaks. Now. A week later, an 1:54:16.800 --> 1:54:20.960 answer of sorts arrived. It wasn't precisely what anyone had 1:54:20.960 --> 1:54:26.720 been expecting. You'd heard about negotiations between workers councils, shipping companies, 1:54:27.080 --> 1:54:29.680 and a couple of governments to try to prevent a 1:54:29.720 --> 1:54:32.560 bloodbath the docks, with the porter to Seattle already at 1:54:32.560 --> 1:54:36.080 a commission, no one could afford another stoppage. You hadn't 1:54:36.080 --> 1:54:37.840 really been sure what to make of it, but the 1:54:37.960 --> 1:54:41.600 representatives were here now. What they proposed in front of 1:54:41.640 --> 1:54:44.280 the largest assembly you'd ever seen was a kind of 1:54:44.360 --> 1:54:47.600 under the table deal. In essence, the port workers would 1:54:47.600 --> 1:54:50.040 go back to work in both Oakland and Seattle in 1:54:50.120 --> 1:54:52.840 exchange for seeding part of Oakland itself to a newly 1:54:52.880 --> 1:54:55.400 formed federation. No one was sure how any of this 1:54:55.520 --> 1:54:57.680 was actually supposed to work, but it was the first 1:54:57.720 --> 1:55:00.920 chance you'd seen in months to start solving the supply problem. 1:55:01.040 --> 1:55:03.600 That didn't mean everyone else would agree to it. Democracy 1:55:04.280 --> 1:55:08.680 is still democracy, after all, but maybe, just maybe with 1:55:08.760 --> 1:55:11.600 a toe hold in Oaklands, the Council's would start to spread, 1:55:12.040 --> 1:55:15.040 and that so called government in California was looking shakier 1:55:15.120 --> 1:55:19.720 every day. Who knew, maybe next time you wouldn't be 1:55:19.760 --> 1:55:28.200 negotiating at all. In March of two thousand four, American 1:55:28.240 --> 1:55:30.840 occupation forces in a Rock attempted to shut down the 1:55:30.880 --> 1:55:34.960 newspaper of a Chiite cleric named Matada el Solder. The 1:55:35.000 --> 1:55:38.280 Americans had expected Sodder to simply fold under the weight 1:55:38.280 --> 1:55:42.320 of the coalition's pressure. Instead, they triggered mass protest that 1:55:42.400 --> 1:55:45.080 quickly turned into an armed uprising. This was a new 1:55:45.120 --> 1:55:49.400 force at Iraq. The American occupation force, who'd been expecting 1:55:49.480 --> 1:55:52.120 to be fighting al Quaeda and maybe the rump of 1:55:52.120 --> 1:55:55.720 the remaining Baptists, were stunned to suddenly be facing a 1:55:55.760 --> 1:55:59.920 working class uprising among the rock Si population. This new mode, 1:56:00.040 --> 1:56:04.200 the army, as it began to call itself, was extremely 1:56:04.240 --> 1:56:07.760 well organized and were initially able to route coalition forces. 1:56:07.800 --> 1:56:10.200 So what was this body army that had so thoroughly 1:56:10.240 --> 1:56:13.360 rewritten the rules of Rock? Shortly after the US to 1:56:13.440 --> 1:56:16.480 posted on Musse In two thousand and three Booktato Sawder, 1:56:17.200 --> 1:56:20.080 the son of another famous Rocky hi at religious figure. 1:56:20.320 --> 1:56:23.240 Both Sauders had been famous for this support and care 1:56:23.360 --> 1:56:26.320 for the poor, so when Sauder returned to a Rock, 1:56:26.880 --> 1:56:29.800 he began to build a political base among the Rocks 1:56:29.840 --> 1:56:33.680 working class, particularly in Solder City, a working class suburb 1:56:33.720 --> 1:56:37.760 of Baghdad. He used his organization to redistribute wealth, providing 1:56:38.080 --> 1:56:41.680 form of welfare states in an almost completely shattered country. 1:56:41.800 --> 1:56:43.960 But are In his allies also began to set up 1:56:43.960 --> 1:56:48.040 a network of freak clinics for pregnant and nursing mothers. 1:56:48.200 --> 1:56:51.200 They used these clinics, which were enormously popular, to build 1:56:51.200 --> 1:56:54.440 a base of support. It is, after all, extremely difficult, 1:56:54.520 --> 1:56:58.280 no matter what your ideological or political disagreements with the group, 1:56:58.720 --> 1:57:02.000 to attack them when the running free clinics for pregnant mothers. 1:57:02.400 --> 1:57:05.400 They protected these clinics with militias, which allowed them to 1:57:05.440 --> 1:57:09.280 transform the community organizations and good will that they had 1:57:09.320 --> 1:57:12.560 gained from the clinic into the military power necessary for 1:57:12.560 --> 1:57:16.480 self governance and eventually for resistance against the American occupation. 1:57:16.880 --> 1:57:21.080 Strategy proved enormously successful. Mattao Sauder is still today one 1:57:21.120 --> 1:57:24.600 of the most important political figures in Iraq, despite sustained 1:57:24.600 --> 1:57:28.280 coalition and occupation force attempts to stamp them out, but 1:57:28.400 --> 1:57:31.640 for all their working class support, the Soterists for by 1:57:31.680 --> 1:57:36.560 no means leftists. In late twenty nineteen, massive anti asterity, 1:57:36.680 --> 1:57:40.200 anti imperialists, and anti sectarian protests erupted in Iraq as 1:57:40.200 --> 1:57:44.400 a reaction to the murderous incompetence of the Iraqi government, who, 1:57:44.680 --> 1:57:48.040 among other crimes, managed to poison a hundred and eighteen 1:57:48.040 --> 1:57:51.680 thousand people in Bosra through the mismanagement and subsequent contamination 1:57:51.720 --> 1:57:56.160 of the water supply. Also are initially backed the protest 1:57:56.520 --> 1:58:00.000 but turned on them in early at which point sauterism 1:58:00.000 --> 1:58:02.760 alicias begin to carry out a brutal campaign of repression 1:58:02.800 --> 1:58:08.880 against the protest camps that culminated in outrent massacres of protesters. 1:58:08.920 --> 1:58:13.320 These massacres became semi regular features of soterist mass mobilizations, 1:58:13.440 --> 1:58:18.280 and alongside state and paramilitary disappearances of activists, the attacks 1:58:18.360 --> 1:58:22.160 essentially crushed the uprising. The violent homophobia and sexism of 1:58:22.200 --> 1:58:25.600 the Soderus may see met odds with their anti imperialism 1:58:25.600 --> 1:58:28.120 and concern for the poor, but right wing organizations have 1:58:28.240 --> 1:58:33.640 often adapted specific policies, positions, and organizational structures from the 1:58:33.720 --> 1:58:36.600 left and In this case, the soderus moobilizations have been 1:58:36.640 --> 1:58:40.640 extremely effective. Indeed, writing organizations are often more effective at 1:58:40.720 --> 1:58:45.080 utilizing dual power tactics and organizations and leftist movements. This 1:58:45.120 --> 1:58:47.840 is partly because of a fundamental asymmetry between the right 1:58:47.840 --> 1:58:51.640 and the left. Right wing organizations can almost always depend 1:58:51.680 --> 1:58:55.800 on financial support from wealthy political backers, who, when push 1:58:55.840 --> 1:58:58.840 comes to shove, can simply create a movement with pure 1:58:58.840 --> 1:59:02.840 money as the coax to create the Tea Party. Leftists, 1:59:03.240 --> 1:59:06.760 the ravings of right wing conspiracy theorists, notwithstanding, have no 1:59:06.840 --> 1:59:10.280 such backers. This funding and support can go a long 1:59:10.320 --> 1:59:13.360 way towards explaining the success of groups like Hezbollah. It 1:59:13.480 --> 1:59:16.800 is certainly true that without Iranian support, Hezbollah would not 1:59:16.800 --> 1:59:18.640 be the movement that it is today, but a great 1:59:18.640 --> 1:59:22.520 deal of their success is simply attributable to the tactics themselves. 1:59:23.000 --> 1:59:24.800 This does not escaped the notice of the U. S. 1:59:24.920 --> 1:59:30.360 Army Joint Special Operations Universities. Major James Love wrote a 1:59:30.360 --> 1:59:34.760 monograph entitled Hesbllah Social Services a Source of Power. In it, 1:59:35.040 --> 1:59:38.640 he writes, the most important branch of the Hezbillah organization 1:59:38.840 --> 1:59:42.000 is a social service section, which can be demonstrated by 1:59:42.000 --> 1:59:45.800 the allocation of an estimated fifty of Hesbala's two thousand 1:59:45.920 --> 1:59:49.280 seven budget service efforts. It is through the work of 1:59:49.320 --> 1:59:53.000 the Social Service Section that all party activities are possible. 1:59:53.680 --> 1:59:57.600 Hesbalah Social Service Section was designed to influence all aspects 1:59:57.680 --> 2:00:02.200 of Lebanicia society. The original intent of providing needed services 2:00:02.240 --> 2:00:04.640 to an oppressed people appears to have been manipulated by 2:00:04.640 --> 2:00:07.760 Hesbillah as a vehicle to bolster its ranks, provide a 2:00:07.800 --> 2:00:12.440 humanitarian shield to the organization, increased influence within the Lebanese government, 2:00:12.760 --> 2:00:16.680 and combat at shier arrival on ball. The Social Service 2:00:16.720 --> 2:00:20.680 Section serves as an equal arm within the organization and 2:00:20.840 --> 2:00:23.320 is used as much as the military and political wing 2:00:23.360 --> 2:00:28.480 in terms of leverage. Hesbillah's Deputy Secretary General describes the 2:00:28.480 --> 2:00:30.800 purpose and intent of the Social Service Section and the 2:00:30.840 --> 2:00:36.160 following passage. Hesbellah paid particular attention to social work. Not 2:00:36.240 --> 2:00:38.560 one aspect of aiding the poor was neglected. As the 2:00:38.600 --> 2:00:43.040 party work towards achieving joint social responsibility, answering their urgent 2:00:43.120 --> 2:00:48.520 needs and introducing beneficial programs. Such work was simply considered 2:00:48.560 --> 2:00:52.760 party duty and concentrated effort towards raising funds and making 2:00:52.800 --> 2:00:57.840 available social service resources served towards achieving these goals. The 2:00:57.920 --> 2:01:01.520 party worked the best of its capacities, cooperating with official 2:01:01.560 --> 2:01:06.160 institutions to respond societal needs. Has Blah's provided medical aid, 2:01:06.240 --> 2:01:10.920 reconstruction assistance, education programs, and particularly programs that take care 2:01:11.200 --> 2:01:15.080 of patrons and widows, which have served to solidify their base. 2:01:15.200 --> 2:01:19.160 These organizations were critical to has Belah's meteoric rise from 2:01:19.160 --> 2:01:22.400 a political nonentity to arguably the most powerful factuated side 2:01:22.400 --> 2:01:26.360 of Lepanese politics. Has Belah's state within a state, as 2:01:26.360 --> 2:01:29.680 it's become known, it's capable of even resisting the Israeli Army. 2:01:29.840 --> 2:01:33.000 Major Love's frustration with the inability of the American Army 2:01:33.120 --> 2:01:36.000 to either deny has Blah's own aid efforts or replicate 2:01:36.000 --> 2:01:38.640 them in a way that could strengthen American power are 2:01:38.680 --> 2:01:42.360 testaments the effectiveness of such a technique and the dangers 2:01:42.360 --> 2:01:45.280 they posed to the American imperial and state project. One 2:01:45.320 --> 2:01:48.040 of those Love's major concerns is that American aid programs 2:01:48.040 --> 2:01:50.040 are simply caught up in red tape. They're unable to 2:01:50.120 --> 2:01:53.960 respond as fast as community led efforts, which means that 2:01:53.960 --> 2:01:56.760 those efforts will get off the ground faster, get to 2:01:56.800 --> 2:02:00.400 the scene faster, and thus route the political of fits. 2:02:00.880 --> 2:02:03.560 When the state is unwilling or unable to provide services, 2:02:03.840 --> 2:02:06.840 especially in the wake of disasters, it leaves a power 2:02:06.920 --> 2:02:09.640 vacuum for organizations to exploit. May not have heard of 2:02:09.680 --> 2:02:13.800 the RSS before. It's a paramilitary group affiliated with India's 2:02:13.880 --> 2:02:17.600 ruling party, the b j P, counts among its members 2:02:17.680 --> 2:02:21.840 India's Prime Minister Modi. It's also probably the world's largest 2:02:21.840 --> 2:02:27.000 fascist organization. The RSS was founded in a group nominally 2:02:27.040 --> 2:02:31.520 dedicated to protecting and promoting Hindu interests. What this means 2:02:31.520 --> 2:02:34.520 in practice is that the RSS is dedicated to creating 2:02:34.520 --> 2:02:37.600 a Hindu state and maintains and promotes a violent hatred 2:02:37.600 --> 2:02:41.200 of Muslims. The results in RSS members being at the 2:02:41.240 --> 2:02:44.880 forefront of anti Muslim programs. The rss IS pre World 2:02:44.880 --> 2:02:47.800 War Two leaders were open admirers of Hitler and Mussolini, 2:02:48.240 --> 2:02:50.680 and while they eventually abandoned those positions at the start 2:02:50.680 --> 2:02:54.120 of World War Two, the rss IS politics have remained 2:02:54.120 --> 2:02:58.000 thoroughly fascist in the intense communal rioting that both preceded 2:02:58.000 --> 2:03:01.360 and followed the partition of India and Kistan after independence, 2:03:02.280 --> 2:03:05.640 which saw mass population transfers of Hindus and Muslims and 2:03:05.680 --> 2:03:07.960 the death of somewhere between two hundred thousand and two 2:03:08.000 --> 2:03:11.800 million people. The RSS established itself as a protector of 2:03:11.840 --> 2:03:15.560 Hindi refugees against Muslim violence, provided protection and aid to 2:03:15.600 --> 2:03:19.800 those trying to survive the chaos the good world has generated, however, 2:03:20.440 --> 2:03:23.320 collapse after a former RSS member did the single most 2:03:23.360 --> 2:03:26.160 famous thing anyone associated with the RSS has ever done, 2:03:26.680 --> 2:03:32.440 assassinated Gandhi. The RSS was almost immediately banned, but in 2:03:32.560 --> 2:03:34.920 light of the terrible pr you get when you're associated 2:03:34.920 --> 2:03:39.720 with killing Gandhi, the RSS became increasingly involved with disaster relief. 2:03:40.800 --> 2:03:45.240 Over half a century of painstaking organizing, it created schools 2:03:45.240 --> 2:03:47.880 and youth programs to spread its influence and use them 2:03:47.880 --> 2:03:51.880 to fuel further anti Muslim violence. In two thousand one, 2:03:52.040 --> 2:03:54.840 the organization gained national acclaim for its response to a 2:03:54.880 --> 2:03:59.960 massive earthquake and Gunjarat. The RSS heavily emphasized the nondiscriminatory 2:04:00.200 --> 2:04:03.920 nature of their aid work and their propaganda, but in reality, 2:04:04.200 --> 2:04:07.480 many of the villages the RS s had rebuilt after 2:04:07.520 --> 2:04:11.560 the devastation had been transformed into miniature versions of the 2:04:11.560 --> 2:04:14.120 fabled Hindu state that the RSS seeks to impose on 2:04:14.160 --> 2:04:18.800 all of India. Strategically, this should look familiar to us now. 2:04:19.200 --> 2:04:23.600 It's essentially a fascist form of prefigurative politics. The RSS 2:04:23.760 --> 2:04:26.760 used an earthquake to build the structure of the new 2:04:26.800 --> 2:04:29.400 Hindu society in the shell of the old. The b 2:04:29.520 --> 2:04:32.800 JP's dominance over Indian politics while led by a member 2:04:32.800 --> 2:04:36.040 of the RSS, and the brutal crackdowns body carried out 2:04:36.040 --> 2:04:40.160 in Kashmir our bloody testament to the success of their strategy. 2:04:40.720 --> 2:04:45.520 Christian fundamentalist organizations have also been extremely effective and utilizing 2:04:45.560 --> 2:04:49.120 their own form of right wing prefigurative politics, so in 2:04:49.120 --> 2:04:52.400 a somewhat different way. In the RSS, their new world 2:04:52.480 --> 2:04:57.680 is defined above all by theocratic patriarchal authoritarianism. Like the 2:04:57.760 --> 2:05:00.640 radicals that occupy, the religious right was operating off of 2:05:00.640 --> 2:05:03.600 a form of contagion theory, theory that exposure to their 2:05:03.640 --> 2:05:07.280 social organizations and forms would essentially be contagious and spread, 2:05:07.600 --> 2:05:11.839 but the Christian rights preferred form as the patriarchal family, 2:05:12.200 --> 2:05:15.840 which serves as a microcosm of the kind of hierarchy 2:05:15.920 --> 2:05:21.200 and patriarchal violence that dominate their long dreamed of theocratic society. 2:05:21.720 --> 2:05:24.640 The Christian right would instill these values into their children 2:05:24.640 --> 2:05:28.160 and send them off into the world to propagate their ideology. Ettinger, 2:05:28.320 --> 2:05:31.080 an expert on the Christian right, wrote this about the 2:05:31.080 --> 2:05:36.160 second phase of the strategy. In nineteen, several church leaders 2:05:36.160 --> 2:05:39.360 came up with a new approach, identifying seven spheres of 2:05:39.400 --> 2:05:42.400 culture to focus on one after another. They try to 2:05:42.440 --> 2:05:45.640 bring about the lasting change and have a significant impact 2:05:45.680 --> 2:05:50.320 on the superstructure of American culture. Lauren Cunningham, founder of 2:05:50.360 --> 2:05:54.720 Youth with the Mission, a Christian missionary group coordinating international 2:05:54.760 --> 2:05:58.560 and national mission churchs for young Christians, describes these seven 2:05:58.600 --> 2:06:01.720 areas as such, these are the areas you can go 2:06:01.800 --> 2:06:06.320 on as missionaries. Here they are first, it's the institution 2:06:06.360 --> 2:06:10.200 set up by God. First the family. After the family 2:06:10.320 --> 2:06:14.040 was the church or the people of God. The third 2:06:14.400 --> 2:06:17.760 was the area of school or education. The fourth was 2:06:17.880 --> 2:06:23.120 media public communication in all forms printed and electronic. The 2:06:23.160 --> 2:06:27.280 fifth was what I call celebration, the arts, entertainment, sports, 2:06:27.720 --> 2:06:30.640 where you celebrate within a culture. The sixth would be 2:06:30.680 --> 2:06:34.080 the whole area of the economy, which starts with innovation 2:06:34.120 --> 2:06:39.000 and science and technology, productivity, sales, and service. The whole 2:06:39.040 --> 2:06:43.200 area we often call it business, but we leave out something. 2:06:43.800 --> 2:06:46.600 We leave out the scientific part which actually raises the 2:06:46.640 --> 2:06:50.080 wealth of the world, anything new like making sand and 2:06:50.160 --> 2:06:53.240 chips for a microchip that increases wealth in the world. 2:06:53.800 --> 2:06:57.440 And then of course prediction, sales and service helps to 2:06:57.480 --> 2:07:00.680 spread the wealth. And so the last area was the 2:07:00.720 --> 2:07:04.720 area of governments. This is a need encapsulation of the 2:07:04.800 --> 2:07:09.040 rights p Refigurative politics start first with the family, and 2:07:09.080 --> 2:07:12.800 then with the church, then reshaped school and education and 2:07:12.880 --> 2:07:15.280 mass media in their image, and from there you can 2:07:15.280 --> 2:07:18.240 begin to take the entire economy. Churches have also long 2:07:18.360 --> 2:07:22.919 used aid programs to proselytize and also expand their control 2:07:22.960 --> 2:07:26.320 over the population, which becomes dependent on their aid. In 2:07:26.360 --> 2:07:28.400 the places where the left has failed to provide for 2:07:28.440 --> 2:07:31.720 their community, the far right has stepped in and has 2:07:31.760 --> 2:07:35.280 been able to rapidly and effectively reshape the political landscape. 2:07:36.040 --> 2:07:39.440 This does not mean, however, that they can't be beaten. 2:07:39.960 --> 2:07:42.920 Cooperation Jackson has offered one of the most powerful visions 2:07:42.920 --> 2:07:46.480 of dual power in the modern US. A product of 2:07:46.560 --> 2:07:50.400 the New African People's Organization and the Malcolm ex grassroots movements, 2:07:50.480 --> 2:07:54.520 Jackson Cush Plan. Cooperation Jackson has put forward a radical 2:07:54.600 --> 2:07:56.960 and democratic bottle of dual power, with the aim of 2:07:57.000 --> 2:07:59.520 turning over control of the land and the means that 2:07:59.560 --> 2:08:02.360 products into Jackson's black working class and allowing it to 2:08:02.360 --> 2:08:06.760 achieve its own self determination. Corporation Jackson has formed mutual 2:08:06.800 --> 2:08:10.400 aid networks, started an incubated program to help workers corroperatives 2:08:10.400 --> 2:08:13.200 get off the ground, and formed a community land trust 2:08:13.280 --> 2:08:15.880 that purchases abandoned buildings in Jackson it turns them over 2:08:15.920 --> 2:08:19.960 to the community. They've also somewhat unusually wound up engaged 2:08:19.960 --> 2:08:23.040 in the electoral process after the untimely death of Ally 2:08:23.080 --> 2:08:25.720 and Jackson Mayor Choqua La Boomba, which led to the 2:08:25.800 --> 2:08:29.640 election of his son, Choquant La Bomba. This placed the 2:08:29.680 --> 2:08:32.720 movement in a somewhat awkward position of having allies, even 2:08:32.760 --> 2:08:35.520 if constrained by the realities of state power in the 2:08:35.560 --> 2:08:40.480 state itself. But politics in the real world is never 2:08:40.520 --> 2:08:44.240 as clean as the models we create to describe it. 2:08:44.240 --> 2:08:47.240 It is only in our ability to adapt the changing 2:08:47.280 --> 2:08:50.920 conditions of struggle while maintaining our political principles that we 2:08:50.960 --> 2:08:53.080 can build the new world in the shell of the old, 2:08:54.240 --> 2:08:58.680 and we can build it. The question is simply, will 2:08:58.720 --> 2:09:18.160 we uh well that wasn't very good. I'm Robert Evans, 2:09:18.600 --> 2:09:21.840 host of the podcast you're listening to, and ashamed of, 2:09:21.920 --> 2:09:26.280 probably because that was Jesus Christ. Garrison. Come in here, 2:09:28.440 --> 2:09:33.920 fix this this Scarrison, Um, this is it could happen 2:09:34.000 --> 2:09:36.160 here a podcast about the fact that the world was 2:09:36.200 --> 2:09:39.960 folding apart, as embodied by me falling apart. When I 2:09:40.000 --> 2:09:42.960 try to introduce the show, see I tied it in. Yeah, 2:09:43.080 --> 2:09:47.960 good job, thank you, thank you. Well it is it is. 2:09:48.000 --> 2:09:49.880 It has to rhyme. It's like it's like the Star 2:09:49.920 --> 2:09:54.040 Wars movies. That's what I was doing. Our guest today 2:09:54.160 --> 2:09:57.720 is Melissa A sidera founder and director of Polo's Pantry, 2:09:58.000 --> 2:10:03.240 a mutual aid food distribution project in Los Angeles, California. 2:10:03.360 --> 2:10:06.240 A Melissa, thank you for coming on and talking to us. 2:10:07.440 --> 2:10:09.520 Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm pleasure to 2:10:09.520 --> 2:10:13.640 be here. I apologize for the introduction, but I honestly 2:10:13.720 --> 2:10:16.240 it's better. It was better than I usually do, so 2:10:16.280 --> 2:10:20.480 if you can back that up. Yes, okay. So I'm 2:10:20.560 --> 2:10:24.160 an l A native, and um, I've been doing community 2:10:24.200 --> 2:10:28.600 organizing for probably like close to a decade, doing a 2:10:28.640 --> 2:10:30.760 lot of community work for a lot of time, and 2:10:31.320 --> 2:10:33.880 a few years before the pandemic. Actually, I started to 2:10:34.000 --> 2:10:38.920 organize with a lot of grassroots organizations in l A, 2:10:39.600 --> 2:10:42.240 working with a lot of house less folks UM all 2:10:42.280 --> 2:10:46.840 over l A, and kind of clock pretty early that 2:10:47.040 --> 2:10:48.520 a lot, you know, a lot of a lot of 2:10:48.560 --> 2:10:52.240 groups were burning through their budgets spending it on food. 2:10:53.560 --> 2:10:58.040 And so since I worked in kind of the food industry, 2:10:58.320 --> 2:11:01.840 I started to kind of poke around and figure out 2:11:02.400 --> 2:11:04.480 that we could get a lot of these things donated 2:11:04.520 --> 2:11:08.480 to us UM and pretty much started building a roster 2:11:08.760 --> 2:11:14.000 like building, kind of like a rulodex of UM other organizations, 2:11:14.080 --> 2:11:17.560 non profits, UM, food banks that we could rely on. 2:11:18.400 --> 2:11:20.960 So almost kind of created sort of like an altera 2:11:21.360 --> 2:11:26.720 system UM for these groups who are working with houseless 2:11:26.720 --> 2:11:30.440 folks to get food every week. UM. I just wanted 2:11:30.480 --> 2:11:33.240 to figure out a way to make a steady and 2:11:33.240 --> 2:11:36.560 the reliable system so that our own house neighbors would 2:11:36.560 --> 2:11:39.640 get food and that organizers across the l A wouldn't 2:11:39.640 --> 2:11:41.760 have to worry about it. And so that's pretty much 2:11:42.360 --> 2:11:47.560 how POLO started. Officially started in two thousand eighteen. I 2:11:47.640 --> 2:11:52.160 was organizing with a group called Caton for All and UH, 2:11:52.240 --> 2:11:55.240 they do a lot of political advocacy and mostly rooted 2:11:55.280 --> 2:11:58.680 in like, um kind of you know, human rights for 2:11:58.720 --> 2:12:02.160 our houses, neighbors. If you don't know, kaytime for all. 2:12:02.200 --> 2:12:07.800 Look them up. They're awesome, follow them fantastic. Yeah, And 2:12:07.840 --> 2:12:11.640 you know, I actually was because I was already doing 2:12:11.680 --> 2:12:15.480 a lot of mutual aid work in skid Row around 2:12:15.520 --> 2:12:19.720 that time and really kind of felt at some point, 2:12:20.280 --> 2:12:23.480 um that you know, like, yes, it was great that 2:12:23.560 --> 2:12:26.680 I was going out there with teams getting hot meals 2:12:26.720 --> 2:12:30.160 out and hot beverages whatever people needed to people, but 2:12:31.120 --> 2:12:33.680 I just was so down on what the conditions, seeing 2:12:33.680 --> 2:12:35.920 all the conditions that they were living in, and I 2:12:36.040 --> 2:12:39.720 just wanted to meet other activists and other folks um 2:12:39.760 --> 2:12:42.960 who could really figure out how you connect people to 2:12:43.040 --> 2:12:46.840 services and and just really you know, anyone working in 2:12:46.880 --> 2:12:49.800 policy that's that's really changing things for people out there. 2:12:49.800 --> 2:12:52.960 And so I wanted to take sort of my advocacy 2:12:53.000 --> 2:12:55.720 and like my work a step further and connected with 2:12:55.760 --> 2:12:57.960 activists all the railway and so that's sort of like 2:12:58.000 --> 2:13:03.640 my organs really rooted lot of activism and organizing. So 2:13:03.840 --> 2:13:05.760 I see I see a lot of I'm not sort 2:13:05.800 --> 2:13:10.160 of your standard kind of or nonprofit I really see 2:13:10.160 --> 2:13:12.640 things in the lens and as a community organizer, and 2:13:12.720 --> 2:13:17.920 so that's why our our work pretty much exploded during COVID. 2:13:18.280 --> 2:13:21.640 So I'm kind of interested for for starters because you're 2:13:21.680 --> 2:13:25.080 you're you know, this is um a mutual aid project 2:13:25.080 --> 2:13:27.160 as opposed to kind of a charity project, and what 2:13:27.200 --> 2:13:29.839 do you what do you see as being the dividing 2:13:29.880 --> 2:13:34.200 line there? Well, for you know, for a lot of 2:13:34.600 --> 2:13:37.520 for us, you know, it's very easy for for folks 2:13:37.520 --> 2:13:39.600 to kind of see the work that we do as 2:13:39.640 --> 2:13:42.400 part of the kind of charitable food system because obviously 2:13:42.440 --> 2:13:47.440 we're you know, UM mutual aid. It's the difference really 2:13:47.520 --> 2:13:51.680 is that obviously, UM, you know, there there's a there's 2:13:51.760 --> 2:13:57.120 a reciprocity between the two of you, UM, between between neighborhoods, 2:13:57.560 --> 2:14:02.360 between individuals, between organizations of sharing resources with each other, 2:14:03.280 --> 2:14:07.400 UM and charitable obviously is that there's only one way, right, 2:14:07.400 --> 2:14:12.000 there's only like one person giving. But for us, UM, 2:14:12.160 --> 2:14:15.480 the way we picked our partners, I mean, you're you're 2:14:15.600 --> 2:14:19.880 ready part of this nucleus of kind of a coalition 2:14:20.000 --> 2:14:22.880 of or doing this work. So it was just really 2:14:23.080 --> 2:14:25.720 very easy for us to kind of share resources with 2:14:25.760 --> 2:14:28.240 each other. So I was doing food and some folks 2:14:28.280 --> 2:14:32.080 were doing hygiene kits, other folks were doing tents, other 2:14:32.200 --> 2:14:35.120 folks were doing types or whatever, and so there was 2:14:35.240 --> 2:14:40.040 so much you know, kind of mutualid and activity going on. 2:14:40.160 --> 2:14:42.360 And so that that's why we're we're really kind of 2:14:42.400 --> 2:14:46.280 rooted in that comment that thinking as far as as 2:14:46.320 --> 2:14:50.760 opposed to charitable ors that basically just set up somewhere 2:14:50.760 --> 2:14:53.440 and give, you know, give give stuff out to people. 2:14:54.320 --> 2:14:57.880 And so we have look in part and part of 2:14:57.880 --> 2:15:01.520 my advisory circle are a lot of houseless neighbors UM 2:15:01.640 --> 2:15:05.880 houses leaders in our community. UM. I also take a 2:15:05.880 --> 2:15:12.320 lot of advice from UM Indigenous organizers UM black community 2:15:12.360 --> 2:15:16.000 leaders in different neighborhoods that we work in. So our 2:15:16.040 --> 2:15:18.360 work is really informed by the community. And so we 2:15:18.480 --> 2:15:20.560 basically asked folks, hey, you know, like, what can we 2:15:20.600 --> 2:15:26.280 do UM and plug into to work that UM that 2:15:26.360 --> 2:15:29.480 already exists in those in those areas. I hope, I 2:15:29.520 --> 2:15:32.920 hope that makes sense. But that's kind of how I 2:15:32.960 --> 2:15:36.560 feel about what we do. And and as an as 2:15:36.600 --> 2:15:38.320 an organizer, because I think we get a lot of 2:15:38.360 --> 2:15:41.320 questions from people who are interested in starting mutual aid 2:15:41.400 --> 2:15:44.680 projects in their own areas. And one of the questions 2:15:44.680 --> 2:15:45.920 we often have It is like, well how do I 2:15:46.200 --> 2:15:49.960 how do I do that? Right? UM? And Yeah, I'm 2:15:50.000 --> 2:15:52.920 interested in like like if you could kind of walk 2:15:53.000 --> 2:15:55.760 us through the steps when when Polo's pantry got started, 2:15:55.800 --> 2:15:57.520 Like what is what was the kind of order of 2:15:57.560 --> 2:15:59.720 operations that you had to go through to get this 2:15:59.720 --> 2:16:01.960 this been running? I think the first thing to do 2:16:02.080 --> 2:16:05.000 is really too For me, it was already kind of 2:16:05.320 --> 2:16:08.560 being part of grassroots UM or so I was part 2:16:08.560 --> 2:16:12.280 of a few of them UM and so it's really 2:16:12.320 --> 2:16:17.200 important to UM to kind of identify the needs of 2:16:17.240 --> 2:16:21.080 a community first before setting up your organs. So I 2:16:21.120 --> 2:16:24.200 feel like I already had an idea of you know, 2:16:24.280 --> 2:16:27.960 of of what certain orcs needed, UM which areas, how 2:16:28.000 --> 2:16:31.840 many and so kind of identifying the needs first kind 2:16:31.840 --> 2:16:35.600 of UM number one. And and to do that you 2:16:35.680 --> 2:16:38.720 really have to connect with the grassroots organizations, local ones 2:16:39.200 --> 2:16:42.120 in your area. So you know, I recommend really just 2:16:42.200 --> 2:16:44.480 kind of doing researchers. Always folks doing that kind of 2:16:44.480 --> 2:16:47.959 stuff all over. If you're into political advocacy, there's folks 2:16:47.959 --> 2:16:51.080 that do that with their folks who are more food 2:16:51.080 --> 2:16:54.080 justice oriented, Like I would recommend going to a local 2:16:54.120 --> 2:16:58.080 food bank or sup kitchens to have also, Like I've 2:16:58.080 --> 2:16:59.800 been doing that for years and I've met a lot 2:16:59.800 --> 2:17:03.480 of people UM with kind of similar values mine UM, 2:17:03.520 --> 2:17:07.760 so just kind of pretty much identify one what you'd 2:17:07.800 --> 2:17:11.119 like to do, what you're good at UM, and then 2:17:11.560 --> 2:17:15.800 essentially research UM, you know, kind of opportunities to tap 2:17:15.840 --> 2:17:20.439 into a local organ doing that work and then essentially 2:17:20.600 --> 2:17:23.480 start organizing with them. Right. I don't I don't recommend 2:17:23.520 --> 2:17:27.640 to build like to build an order prior to not 2:17:27.800 --> 2:17:30.560 having this kind of knowledge, because I feel like it's 2:17:30.640 --> 2:17:35.680 really crucial to sort of kind of map out first 2:17:36.000 --> 2:17:40.200 what the community needs instead of you building mutual aid 2:17:40.320 --> 2:17:44.200 organization based on you know whatever, because I feel like 2:17:44.200 --> 2:17:47.160 it's it's important to work through things from the ground 2:17:47.200 --> 2:17:50.920 up UM. That way, you feel like the work is impactful. 2:17:51.600 --> 2:17:56.240 That way, the community is leading and informing your work. 2:17:56.280 --> 2:17:58.400 And so that's that's kind of like how I I 2:17:58.440 --> 2:18:02.440 approached MINE. So look for a local org so kind 2:18:02.440 --> 2:18:05.360 of sit and organizing for a little bit, and then 2:18:06.080 --> 2:18:10.280 from there, once you guys identify what it is UM 2:18:10.360 --> 2:18:12.520 and start to kind of have an idea of the 2:18:12.520 --> 2:18:16.640 demand or the need in that area, then start to 2:18:17.360 --> 2:18:21.480 reach out to say, for me, for for food. A 2:18:21.520 --> 2:18:26.640 lot of local, um, local chains will well well pretty 2:18:26.720 --> 2:18:30.440 much if you if you tell them what you're doing, um, 2:18:30.480 --> 2:18:32.280 a lot of them will support you. So I actually 2:18:32.280 --> 2:18:34.960 have I started with just going literally to my local 2:18:35.000 --> 2:18:38.200 Ralphs and telling the manager. They're like, hey, this is 2:18:38.240 --> 2:18:40.720 what I'm doing, I'm starting this or you know, it 2:18:40.879 --> 2:18:44.920 wasn't Ralph's being a local grocery store in Likes Angeles area. 2:18:45.440 --> 2:18:47.800 A lot of I didn't know what Ralph's was before 2:18:47.800 --> 2:18:49.320 I moved to l A. So I just wanted to 2:18:49.360 --> 2:18:51.039 be like, she's not just like rolling over to where 2:18:51.040 --> 2:18:55.840 buddy Ralph's house, like, I guess you've got some food? Yeah? Sorry, yeah, 2:18:55.879 --> 2:18:59.000 so that Ralph's out here in l A. So most 2:18:59.040 --> 2:19:03.039 places yeah more or less, yeah, yeah and will more 2:19:03.080 --> 2:19:05.360 folks said, not everyone is down for that kind of stuff, 2:19:05.400 --> 2:19:07.879 but somehow you'll you'll really end up on one that's 2:19:07.920 --> 2:19:11.120 really you know, that is really unkind. I think most 2:19:11.160 --> 2:19:13.640 folks have to realize that this this this kind of 2:19:13.680 --> 2:19:18.200 work is not it didn't happen overnight like building like 2:19:18.280 --> 2:19:22.000 building uh, you know, like a reliable network of people 2:19:22.080 --> 2:19:27.119 to donate to you is. It takes time. So but 2:19:27.160 --> 2:19:30.600 I think if if you hit kind of larger chains, 2:19:30.920 --> 2:19:33.480 you will get UM, you know, you'll you'll you'll get 2:19:33.640 --> 2:19:36.400 you'll start to get a steady supply from them. Do 2:19:36.440 --> 2:19:39.000 you have any kind of advice for UM when you're 2:19:39.000 --> 2:19:42.199 actually approaching you know, manager at Ralph's or something, somebody 2:19:42.520 --> 2:19:44.480 who works for Like, what do you have like I 2:19:44.520 --> 2:19:46.520 don't know, like a script kind of a rough guy 2:19:46.560 --> 2:19:49.360 to like here's how I try to start these conversations here. 2:19:49.440 --> 2:19:51.120 Some ways I try to phrase for things because that 2:19:51.120 --> 2:19:53.600 could be useful for folks. You know, I actually have 2:19:53.760 --> 2:19:56.320 like a form letters I could share later. Maybe you 2:19:56.320 --> 2:19:59.800 can show, Yeah, that would be great, UM that you 2:19:59.800 --> 2:20:02.120 know that they can use to UM you know, if 2:20:02.120 --> 2:20:06.400 they're if they're going to UM solicit folks with that stuff. 2:20:06.440 --> 2:20:08.680 And I think a lot of mutual aid organizations to 2:20:08.879 --> 2:20:12.000 have that kind of UM kind of literature, that kind 2:20:12.000 --> 2:20:16.880 of form, so UM, I think just basically kind of 2:20:16.920 --> 2:20:19.879 letting them know who you are, who you're serving, UM, 2:20:19.879 --> 2:20:26.280 how often which demographic is going to that's usually really important. UM. 2:20:26.440 --> 2:20:30.200 What what helped me though, was I was as I 2:20:30.240 --> 2:20:33.119 started to get more serious about about doing the food work, 2:20:33.560 --> 2:20:36.800 I connected to you know, some some community partners, and 2:20:36.879 --> 2:20:41.600 I actually UM turned Polos into a fiscally sponsored organ 2:20:41.760 --> 2:20:44.560 so we moved from being just fully grassroots to being 2:20:44.600 --> 2:20:49.480 fiscally sponsored. That basically means we're operating under the five 2:20:49.640 --> 2:20:53.400 one C three number of another organization of a larger organization. 2:20:54.080 --> 2:20:57.440 So that that was that open so so many opportunities 2:20:57.440 --> 2:20:59.480 for us. It really allowed us to be able to 2:20:59.520 --> 2:21:03.480 access larger amounts of food and really help out a 2:21:03.520 --> 2:21:06.120 lot of a lot of a lot of smaller organs 2:21:06.480 --> 2:21:08.800 that needed to get their food programs off the ground. 2:21:09.680 --> 2:21:13.400 And so UM that is something I recommend if you're 2:21:13.440 --> 2:21:17.240 if people are serious about it, to define a community 2:21:17.280 --> 2:21:20.640 of community partner who who isn't established five one C 2:21:20.840 --> 2:21:25.119 three that they trust UM to see if they if 2:21:25.120 --> 2:21:26.920 they you know, if they can sign on to to 2:21:27.080 --> 2:21:30.600 be a physical sponsor UM. That I think is one 2:21:30.600 --> 2:21:33.240 of the quickest ways to be able to UM to 2:21:33.360 --> 2:21:37.720 really kind of establish yourself as as far as getting 2:21:37.879 --> 2:21:40.840 larger amounts of food then, and by that I mean 2:21:40.959 --> 2:21:44.320 getting pallets of food, not just cases, but literally palettes 2:21:44.320 --> 2:21:48.240 of food delivered to wherever you are. As soon as 2:21:48.240 --> 2:21:51.760 we did that, that completely changed the game UM. And 2:21:51.760 --> 2:21:54.160 and I think I did that because I knew I 2:21:54.200 --> 2:21:57.039 had so many friends who were doing mutual aid that 2:21:57.200 --> 2:22:01.480 needed so you know, just so much stuff from groceries 2:22:01.560 --> 2:22:05.840 to um, you know, fresh produce, and it wasn't and 2:22:05.879 --> 2:22:08.200 it wasn't you know, it didn't stop. And food we 2:22:08.200 --> 2:22:12.080 were getting you know, hand sanitizer, we were getting tense, 2:22:12.240 --> 2:22:14.360 we were getting all sorts of stuff, you know, and 2:22:14.440 --> 2:22:18.600 so um. So yeah, that's what I recommend for folks 2:22:18.600 --> 2:22:22.800 were serious about food is to really again start to 2:22:22.879 --> 2:22:27.760 build a relationship with local businesses, um that they that 2:22:27.800 --> 2:22:31.640 they like food businesses, and really telling people this is 2:22:31.680 --> 2:22:34.119 what I'm doing. If you're if you know, if you're 2:22:34.160 --> 2:22:37.120 if you're you know, if you are, what support us? 2:22:37.200 --> 2:22:40.320 You know, like this is um, you know, these are 2:22:40.560 --> 2:22:42.840 these are the days that we need food or whatever, 2:22:42.920 --> 2:22:45.400 or these are the times that we'll need food and 2:22:45.440 --> 2:22:47.279 just let them know that you know, you're you're happy 2:22:47.320 --> 2:22:51.440 to pick it up or that you're happy to because 2:22:51.520 --> 2:22:55.520 there's there's I think, at least for California, we're starting 2:22:55.560 --> 2:22:59.560 to change law, like policy and law behind food waste, 2:23:00.120 --> 2:23:02.280 and so I think, um, something's going to change. In 2:23:02.440 --> 2:23:07.120 January of two, where a lot of food waste basically 2:23:07.160 --> 2:23:11.279 going to decrease because it's going to be much more difficult. 2:23:11.320 --> 2:23:13.000 The city is going to make it much more difficult 2:23:13.080 --> 2:23:17.240 for for businesses to just carry this stuff. Um they're 2:23:17.280 --> 2:23:21.959 they're really pushing them to uh um to separate them. 2:23:22.000 --> 2:23:27.000 But anyway, regardless, you're helping the business really UM move, 2:23:27.120 --> 2:23:30.279 you know, move food waste, and and most of them 2:23:30.320 --> 2:23:32.400 and a lot of employees too that I've talked to 2:23:33.320 --> 2:23:36.040 UM just you know, just our heart work. And every 2:23:36.080 --> 2:23:38.640 time they have to clear out you know, a full 2:23:39.480 --> 2:23:42.000 full tray or just trays of trays of of of 2:23:42.200 --> 2:23:45.800 of a perfectly fine food. So yeah, there's there's a 2:23:45.879 --> 2:23:49.640 video going viral on Twitter right now of of like 2:23:49.680 --> 2:23:52.320 someone working at Dunking Donuts and just like dumping just 2:23:52.440 --> 2:23:57.160 like hundreds and hundreds of donuts into the garbage. And 2:23:57.160 --> 2:23:59.800 then that happens. That happens every single day. You know. 2:24:00.080 --> 2:24:02.120 I have I have friends who used to work on 2:24:02.200 --> 2:24:04.800 Whole Foods and they would tell me just just how 2:24:04.840 --> 2:24:08.800 heartbreaking it was, just the amount, just the massive amount 2:24:08.840 --> 2:24:11.360 of that's being wasted. Yeah, it's evil, it's it's it's 2:24:11.360 --> 2:24:14.160 it's it's it's it's it's it's a thing that in 2:24:14.200 --> 2:24:17.720 the more difficult days ahead as you know, things like 2:24:17.760 --> 2:24:20.480 well like we under in a lot of areas, like 2:24:20.920 --> 2:24:23.120 the crop was half of what it normally is this year. 2:24:23.640 --> 2:24:25.520 That's going to continue. One day we will look at 2:24:25.600 --> 2:24:31.520 videos of Dunkin Donuts dropping an entire day's worth of 2:24:31.560 --> 2:24:34.640 donuts into the trash and use it as a pretext 2:24:34.680 --> 2:24:37.880 to bring executives to trial. And it's going to be 2:24:37.959 --> 2:24:41.959 like like like a war crime. Yeah is I mean, 2:24:42.000 --> 2:24:45.480 I mean honestly though, as someone in food, um, you know, 2:24:45.640 --> 2:24:49.440 like the food system is changing massively in so many ways. 2:24:49.520 --> 2:24:51.640 I feel like the one kind of good thing that 2:24:51.680 --> 2:24:55.440 happened in the pandemic is that lawmakers were able to 2:24:55.480 --> 2:25:00.720 identify that the White Snap or cal Fresh pretty much 2:25:00.720 --> 2:25:04.800 food stamps were not enough really to um, you know, 2:25:04.879 --> 2:25:08.720 to feed families and feed people. It's not nearly enough, though, 2:25:09.040 --> 2:25:11.640 but at least it kind of pushes the needles where 2:25:11.640 --> 2:25:15.680 we need where we needed to go UM. And I 2:25:15.720 --> 2:25:20.680 think I think, having having been so focused and so 2:25:20.840 --> 2:25:23.800 like in the center of mutual aid work in l A, 2:25:24.280 --> 2:25:27.240 I'm able to kind of broadly tell you know, tell 2:25:27.560 --> 2:25:31.600 um really tell lawmakers too that hey, you know, there's 2:25:31.680 --> 2:25:34.560 so much um there's so much meat out there, but 2:25:34.600 --> 2:25:38.160 the community themselves have built alternate food systems to be 2:25:38.240 --> 2:25:42.800 able to care for themselves. I feel like my hope 2:25:43.480 --> 2:25:46.720 really is to be able to have to kind of 2:25:46.800 --> 2:25:52.200 hyperlocalize our food systems that way neighborhoods and really like 2:25:52.360 --> 2:25:56.119 communities are are essentially dictating their own you know, their 2:25:56.160 --> 2:25:59.240 own needs. They're they're basically bringing in the resources that 2:25:59.280 --> 2:26:02.920 they want, They're bringing in the kind of food that 2:26:02.959 --> 2:26:06.440 they want, you know, and um, and really just working 2:26:06.480 --> 2:26:10.680 towards the real kind of food food sovereignty where people 2:26:10.680 --> 2:26:14.520 are able to you know, to get the resources themselves. 2:26:14.680 --> 2:26:19.040 And and for me, I feel like mutual aid scares 2:26:19.080 --> 2:26:21.360 a lot of people because again it really is this 2:26:21.480 --> 2:26:24.360 sort of like, um, the reason why we were able 2:26:24.400 --> 2:26:28.279 to a lot of communities were able to to survive COVID. 2:26:28.520 --> 2:26:31.879 You know, we're still doing it and it still ours 2:26:31.920 --> 2:26:34.040 so deep in it. And and even like I try 2:26:34.080 --> 2:26:37.959 to tell students to and like, you know, um, mutual 2:26:38.000 --> 2:26:41.800 aid isn't just food or whatever. It's also like say 2:26:41.920 --> 2:26:45.320 your dad is a pickup truck and your neighbor needs 2:26:45.360 --> 2:26:49.520 to move, I don't know, their dining room table across town, 2:26:49.760 --> 2:26:53.520 Like that is a form of mutual aid UM or Like, 2:26:53.560 --> 2:26:58.200 there's there's so many things that especially a lot of 2:26:58.280 --> 2:27:02.240 immigrant communities that I that I work with. This this 2:27:02.400 --> 2:27:06.560 form of care, community care, you know, has existed forever, 2:27:07.200 --> 2:27:12.600 and it's just somehow elevated itself during the pandemic because, 2:27:12.640 --> 2:27:16.080 as we know, the safety net just wasn't enough. It 2:27:16.600 --> 2:27:18.560 didn't it didn't it really didn't help me, you know, 2:27:18.560 --> 2:27:20.880 it didn't really help a lot of communities, and so 2:27:21.720 --> 2:27:27.000 this system essentially kept people afloat. And now we're trying 2:27:27.040 --> 2:27:33.000 to figure out how to really create better ways to 2:27:33.040 --> 2:27:36.760 sustain it and to really create better ways to get 2:27:36.760 --> 2:27:41.320 the resources directly to communities that need them. So that's 2:27:41.360 --> 2:27:42.920 kind of where I'm at im. I'm working with other 2:27:43.000 --> 2:27:44.879 folks trying to figure out how to how to keep 2:27:44.879 --> 2:27:48.440 the sustainable and really have more agency over what kind 2:27:48.480 --> 2:27:50.920 of food and what kind of aid you want. How 2:27:50.920 --> 2:27:54.800 have people that have been needing to access the mutual 2:27:54.840 --> 2:27:59.520 aiding the food, how have they been learning about your organization? UM. 2:27:59.560 --> 2:28:02.480 I think honestly, all this stuff really happened by word 2:28:02.480 --> 2:28:05.480 of mouth. I think because I was I was already 2:28:05.560 --> 2:28:09.400 part of this huge coalition UM. That's part of of 2:28:09.480 --> 2:28:11.680 the Sophie Knows a Cat for All. There's a group 2:28:11.680 --> 2:28:15.040 called Street Watch. There's a group called Brown Game, There's 2:28:15.080 --> 2:28:17.760 a group called Like There's there's all these different folks 2:28:17.800 --> 2:28:21.640 that basically are in our wide coalition. I haven't had 2:28:21.680 --> 2:28:24.240 to really advertise much like people just sort of like 2:28:24.840 --> 2:28:26.959 just kept telling others like, hey, you know, like Melissa 2:28:27.440 --> 2:28:31.440 Polos and her team were doing this and UM. Also 2:28:31.480 --> 2:28:36.760 as a COVID response, I created another UM um UH 2:28:36.760 --> 2:28:41.840 like COVID initiative called Homemade Meals and and that is 2:28:43.000 --> 2:28:47.879 the partnership with another organization called YIS. And so as 2:28:47.879 --> 2:28:52.480 of today, I think we're close to seventy meals UM. 2:28:52.520 --> 2:28:56.240 That's all community lad. Yes. So we so we the 2:28:56.240 --> 2:29:00.520 smart of UM. We essentially created a system where we 2:29:00.840 --> 2:29:04.040 uh we work with people who are who are cooking 2:29:04.200 --> 2:29:08.080 homade meals in their homes and connecting them to drivers. 2:29:08.160 --> 2:29:12.160 And so we have about six different UM organ partners. 2:29:12.200 --> 2:29:15.760 So one of them is obviously it's the same people Kaytown, 2:29:15.840 --> 2:29:20.199 street Watch, Covenant House. They work a lot with Homeless 2:29:20.240 --> 2:29:25.320 Youth um l a can or in skid Row UM 2:29:25.400 --> 2:29:27.560 and a bunch of other mutual aid groups in different 2:29:27.560 --> 2:29:32.360 areas of l A, so I recognize UM. At the 2:29:32.400 --> 2:29:36.039 beginning of COVID, a lot of my houseless neighbors were 2:29:36.040 --> 2:29:39.360 telling us that they were scared, like because a lot 2:29:39.400 --> 2:29:42.040 of a lot of businesses were closing, a lot of 2:29:42.600 --> 2:29:49.000 corner stores, restaurants, UM that the food access completely shut 2:29:49.000 --> 2:29:53.440 off for them during at the beginning, and I started 2:29:53.440 --> 2:29:55.160 to freak out. I was like, we're going to get 2:29:55.200 --> 2:30:01.600 food to people. And so UM some friends who run UM, 2:30:01.760 --> 2:30:04.039 basically they weren't kind of like a youth kind of 2:30:04.120 --> 2:30:08.520 youth focus or UM wanted to activate their you know, 2:30:08.560 --> 2:30:10.720 activate their community. They're like, hey, how can we help? 2:30:10.800 --> 2:30:13.959 What can we do? So we created this program basically 2:30:14.000 --> 2:30:17.480 that you know, figure it out, like, okay, well a 2:30:17.480 --> 2:30:19.320 lot of people want to have volunteer, but they can't 2:30:19.360 --> 2:30:22.240 leave home, So why don't they cooked meals at home? 2:30:23.080 --> 2:30:25.880 And then we'll just pair them with drivers we can 2:30:25.959 --> 2:30:29.120 pick it up safely. And so we just start doing that. 2:30:29.160 --> 2:30:34.120 We created this system too, and and I think we honestly, 2:30:34.240 --> 2:30:36.080 I thought we were just gonna do it for two months, 2:30:36.200 --> 2:30:41.439 but now we're what like, in nineteen months later, seventy 2:30:41.440 --> 2:30:46.520 five thousand nails over a thousand volunteers, like it's been wild. Actually, 2:30:46.600 --> 2:30:54.200 Jamie a friend of dog expert, she would be angry 2:30:54.200 --> 2:30:59.080 if we didn't state that. So Jamie, UM, Jamie actually 2:30:59.280 --> 2:31:02.920 is it's one of our O g like like cooks, 2:31:02.920 --> 2:31:05.039 Like she started with home and made meals from the 2:31:05.160 --> 2:31:08.360 very beginning. UM, she's kind of one of our That's 2:31:08.400 --> 2:31:10.520 kind of how we know her. UM. It's because she 2:31:10.640 --> 2:31:14.480 found she found that program UM. And it's been a while, 2:31:14.920 --> 2:31:17.840 it's been it's been so amazing to to really activate 2:31:18.360 --> 2:31:21.200 so many people across l A to cook for our 2:31:21.200 --> 2:31:25.680 houses neighbors. And so I haven't even fully digested our 2:31:25.680 --> 2:31:28.279 our team hasn't even full digested that the real impact 2:31:28.280 --> 2:31:31.920 of that. But it's been seving five thousand meals UM 2:31:31.959 --> 2:31:35.160 made by the community for our for our houses neighbors. 2:31:35.160 --> 2:31:38.160 So so so that's yeah, so that I don't know, 2:31:38.440 --> 2:31:41.520 like I feel like and I truly believe there's just 2:31:41.560 --> 2:31:46.320 so much, just so much power and the people and 2:31:47.240 --> 2:31:51.480 really trying to figure out ways to continue to you know, 2:31:51.520 --> 2:31:56.080 to create UM better systems where where we can redirect 2:31:56.120 --> 2:32:04.160 those resources you know, UM to us and UM you 2:32:04.160 --> 2:32:07.320 know like really kind kind of break down these systems 2:32:07.320 --> 2:32:10.360 where you know, because because even people were telling me, 2:32:10.440 --> 2:32:12.200 like folks who are like, you know, these sort of 2:32:12.200 --> 2:32:15.400 big institutions, food institutions have been around for decades or 2:32:15.920 --> 2:32:20.480 even folks UM from like yeah, from like running food 2:32:20.480 --> 2:32:22.720 dogs since the eighties were like, you know, how are 2:32:22.720 --> 2:32:25.119 you able to move so fast? I'm like, that's mutual aid. 2:32:25.640 --> 2:32:29.560 That's like, that's mutual aid. Then our ability to not 2:32:29.680 --> 2:32:33.959 have to run through so much bureaucratic crap and red 2:32:34.040 --> 2:32:38.320 tape is a reason why we were able to, you know, 2:32:38.480 --> 2:32:43.600 to to to in secreate such huge impact because people 2:32:44.360 --> 2:32:47.279 believed in what we did and you know, and helped 2:32:47.400 --> 2:32:52.160 support us, funded us UM and we essentially just you know, 2:32:52.400 --> 2:32:54.680 just hit the ground running. We're able to figure out 2:32:55.000 --> 2:32:58.720 what people needed on the ground and just just got 2:32:58.720 --> 2:33:00.880 it to them. That's that's it, you know, and we'll 2:33:00.879 --> 2:33:03.720 figure out. If we don't have it, we're gonna keep 2:33:03.800 --> 2:33:05.920 you know, we'll ask around for folks who have it. 2:33:06.320 --> 2:33:11.120 Like UM. There's a group called SILA there. It's silver 2:33:11.240 --> 2:33:14.840 like UM and my friend Kat who's one of the 2:33:15.000 --> 2:33:18.160 co founders. She they also worked with with UM with 2:33:18.240 --> 2:33:23.160 Houseless Folks and they do uh incredible work, like you know, 2:33:23.280 --> 2:33:28.600 providing showers, providing hot meals, providing reference services for folks. 2:33:29.640 --> 2:33:33.400 Um she she was great, I'd getting hygiene kids, and 2:33:33.440 --> 2:33:35.600 so that's that was started me to wil between each other. 2:33:35.840 --> 2:33:37.640 Like she needed hot meals, so I gave that to 2:33:37.640 --> 2:33:40.560 her on Saturdays, and then I needed like hygiene kids, 2:33:40.560 --> 2:33:44.520 and so that's kind of like the basis, yeah exactly, 2:33:44.680 --> 2:33:46.760 like I literally will give her two hundred meals, She'll 2:33:46.760 --> 2:33:48.800 give me two hundred hygiene kids. And that was like 2:33:48.879 --> 2:33:52.800 that throughout the pandemic, Like we just would share resources 2:33:52.840 --> 2:33:57.200 and people thought we were this huge borg, but essentially 2:33:57.200 --> 2:33:59.800 it was just you know, literally like my friends and 2:33:59.840 --> 2:34:01.680 I talking to each other like hey, what do you 2:34:01.680 --> 2:34:04.160 have today? What do you have coming in today? And 2:34:04.200 --> 2:34:07.000 we just essentially kind of built this sort of cloud 2:34:07.240 --> 2:34:12.320 like sort of inventory. Right, so it's like Polos has 2:34:12.560 --> 2:34:16.360 a thousand meals and like Seela's got five hundred Hygian kids, 2:34:16.480 --> 2:34:22.360 and like you know, street Watch as like fifty tents 2:34:22.440 --> 2:34:24.840 and like a hundred tarps. So it's like we all 2:34:25.000 --> 2:34:27.000 were like, hey, you know, there's there's a houseless van 2:34:27.160 --> 2:34:30.240 on the corner of like Sunset or whatever that needs 2:34:30.440 --> 2:34:33.160 like blah blah blah. And so we essentially just you know, 2:34:34.000 --> 2:34:36.560 just grab and go like Poles has meals and like 2:34:36.640 --> 2:34:40.080 Streetwatch has tents, and like Kate Towns got like the tarps. 2:34:40.120 --> 2:34:43.680 So y'all just again beautifully just sort of started to 2:34:43.760 --> 2:34:47.920 like build this sort of sort of cloud like inventory 2:34:48.000 --> 2:34:51.880 of stuff and it just worked and it's still working 2:34:52.920 --> 2:34:56.680 so um and it's so assistant, Like is what what 2:34:56.840 --> 2:34:59.280 we're bringing up or at the beginning is talking about 2:34:59.280 --> 2:35:02.920 how consistent you're able to you're able to have done 2:35:02.920 --> 2:35:05.800 this work, which is if you're an l A resident, 2:35:05.920 --> 2:35:09.640 you know that you know the city's support is never consistent, 2:35:10.560 --> 2:35:18.720 so having that consistency is so vital. Yes, yeah, I'm 2:35:18.720 --> 2:35:20.680 not thank you know, it's it's a lot of hard work. 2:35:20.760 --> 2:35:23.720 There's so much that people don't see. Obviously, there's so many, 2:35:23.840 --> 2:35:25.720 so many things that people don't see. There's a lot 2:35:25.720 --> 2:35:29.120 of organizing behind it, just literally a lot of community building, 2:35:29.360 --> 2:35:32.320 a lot of meetings. Yeah, I think that again, like 2:35:32.360 --> 2:35:36.520 the bulk of mutual aid is relationships and trust, you know, 2:35:36.879 --> 2:35:39.120 like that that's that's really it. That's how you breathe 2:35:39.200 --> 2:35:42.840 life into your system. And it's like, you know, you 2:35:42.920 --> 2:35:45.800 have to have you have to continue to like nourish 2:35:45.800 --> 2:35:50.680 your relationships, you know, between yourself and other organizers, between 2:35:50.680 --> 2:35:53.199 yourself if you're running an order between yourself and another 2:35:53.320 --> 2:35:57.000 organ UM. And and really that's how we've been able to, 2:35:57.280 --> 2:35:59.760 you know, to to reach so many people, is because 2:35:59.800 --> 2:36:04.200 we focused on making sure but you know, UM, it's 2:36:04.240 --> 2:36:07.320 so easy to to burn out in this work. But again, 2:36:07.320 --> 2:36:09.039 we also have to make sure that we take care 2:36:09.080 --> 2:36:13.320 of each other, UM. And we focused on making sure 2:36:13.360 --> 2:36:17.440 that we're checking out the other two and so I, 2:36:19.000 --> 2:36:21.720 you know, it's it's hard to fully explain what how 2:36:21.800 --> 2:36:23.640 do you even teach that you know, how to how 2:36:23.680 --> 2:36:27.320 to how to properly build relationships? But I feel like 2:36:27.400 --> 2:36:30.160 that's that's such a key part of creating a really 2:36:31.120 --> 2:36:34.920 robust mutual aid network. UM. And that's at least the 2:36:34.959 --> 2:36:39.120 experience that you had, you know, yeah, are the work 2:36:39.120 --> 2:36:41.000 that you've done and what you've been able to accomplish 2:36:41.080 --> 2:36:45.120 is very impressive and is is something that people a 2:36:45.080 --> 2:36:47.640 lot of people can aspire to. UM. Is there any 2:36:47.680 --> 2:36:50.520 like resources online that you can point to if someone's 2:36:50.600 --> 2:36:54.120 wanting to get into this type of work, UM or 2:36:54.160 --> 2:36:57.400 any any like any kind of like advice to get 2:36:57.440 --> 2:36:59.240 started in your own city, or to like look for 2:36:59.280 --> 2:37:01.520 stuff that's doing similar that that's like that's doing a 2:37:01.560 --> 2:37:12.160 similar thing. Um uh wow, let's see who has um gosh, 2:37:12.680 --> 2:37:17.560 that's a really really really good question. Um. Well, well, 2:37:17.600 --> 2:37:20.120 first I hope that people have read Mutual Aid by 2:37:20.120 --> 2:37:24.879 Dean Spade. Um. That's a really good book. Um. And 2:37:24.879 --> 2:37:29.120 and from there I would read I would read The 2:37:29.200 --> 2:37:33.560 Black Panthers Social Programs. I get a lot of I 2:37:33.720 --> 2:37:38.160 get a lot of my um my inspiration from there. Um. 2:37:38.200 --> 2:37:41.160 And really that's that's really those those two things to 2:37:41.240 --> 2:37:44.320 kind of start as just sort of like your um, 2:37:44.560 --> 2:37:48.080 your primers um. And then if you want to kind 2:37:48.120 --> 2:37:53.440 of get deeper into food justice, um uh, they're's a 2:37:53.440 --> 2:37:57.520 really good book I get ready years ago. I think 2:37:57.520 --> 2:38:01.160 it's literally called food Justice one on one. Okay, let 2:38:01.160 --> 2:38:05.200 me see, it's really called food Juice one on one. Yeah, 2:38:05.240 --> 2:38:08.280 there's there's quite a few, but but one that's one, 2:38:08.360 --> 2:38:10.640 and then there's another. There's a one book um I 2:38:10.760 --> 2:38:14.360 read called More Than Just Food um. And then it's 2:38:15.280 --> 2:38:18.240 it's pretty by Yeah, I'll give you guys my top 2:38:18.320 --> 2:38:22.200 five and that really kind of helps sort of um 2:38:22.360 --> 2:38:25.040 like shape my thinking or on food juice. So that's 2:38:25.080 --> 2:38:27.959 It's written by a guy named Garrett Broad and he 2:38:28.080 --> 2:38:31.480 essentially like kind of lays out sort of how the 2:38:31.520 --> 2:38:34.240 industrial food system kind of created this huge crisis that 2:38:34.320 --> 2:38:37.879 we're in, and you know, like how there's there's really 2:38:37.920 --> 2:38:43.280 kind of an abundance of food everywhere, but obviously it's distributed, 2:38:43.640 --> 2:38:47.280 yes exactly, and so and and and it also kind 2:38:47.280 --> 2:38:50.560 of lays out how food justice you know, activists um 2:38:50.800 --> 2:38:54.120 who are in mostly low income communities of color help 2:38:54.240 --> 2:38:58.800 really build community based kind of solutions to these problems. 2:38:58.800 --> 2:39:00.760 And so that's really kind of where my thinking and 2:39:00.840 --> 2:39:05.480 my my lens comes from. Is be because I am 2:39:05.520 --> 2:39:09.080 a child of l A. I'm able to understand what 2:39:09.120 --> 2:39:13.600 different neighborhoods need UM based on because I either grew 2:39:13.680 --> 2:39:18.000 up there, work there, have family there, you know, what's 2:39:18.040 --> 2:39:21.280 school there, or just have friends or other organizers who 2:39:21.360 --> 2:39:24.320 live there. And so say, if you know, I, I 2:39:24.360 --> 2:39:27.360 didn't grow up in Ball Heights, but I have friends 2:39:27.360 --> 2:39:31.280 who did. And so like, if I'm trying to build 2:39:31.320 --> 2:39:34.160 out a food program or mutual aid program and Ball Heights, 2:39:34.840 --> 2:39:36.840 I'm not gonna just walk in there and be like 2:39:36.840 --> 2:39:39.120 all right, we're gonna do it at you know, Yeah, 2:39:39.160 --> 2:39:42.199 you're not gonna take over there, They're they're saying exactly. 2:39:42.240 --> 2:39:44.480 But I think that's one thing I think I really 2:39:44.480 --> 2:39:49.000 want to for people to really especially for for for 2:39:49.040 --> 2:39:51.000 young people who want to get to food justice, Like 2:39:51.040 --> 2:39:54.240 you really have to really honestly do your research first 2:39:54.320 --> 2:40:00.200 and let the media leaders lead, um lead lead your 2:40:00.240 --> 2:40:03.640 program with you. Right. And then there's a difference between 2:40:03.680 --> 2:40:07.240 like making community connections and then trying to take over, right, 2:40:08.280 --> 2:40:11.080 There's a very very two very different things exactly. Yeah, 2:40:11.120 --> 2:40:12.960 you don't want to be extractive, right, you don't want 2:40:13.000 --> 2:40:16.199 to be extractive. You don't want to be coming in 2:40:16.480 --> 2:40:19.160 and you know, and and and really like you know, 2:40:19.240 --> 2:40:23.640 try to like show up with like, you know, solutions 2:40:23.680 --> 2:40:26.439 where there they weren't informed at all by the community. 2:40:26.440 --> 2:40:29.760 And I keep trying to stress that, Yeah, is there 2:40:29.760 --> 2:40:34.360 anywhere that people can support you or at least follow 2:40:34.360 --> 2:40:37.600 you online to keep up with the work. Yes, Um, 2:40:38.040 --> 2:40:42.080 I'm very active on Twitter. Um it's uh, we're at 2:40:42.160 --> 2:40:45.520 Polos pantry, so that's p O l O, s um 2:40:45.560 --> 2:40:48.920 p A and t R Y. And then I'm also 2:40:49.640 --> 2:40:53.080 tweeting as myself as an organizer. It's under m E 2:40:53.320 --> 2:40:58.120 smelling music as M E L L E music. Um, 2:40:58.160 --> 2:41:01.400 and that actually that handled for me everywhere like my 2:41:01.480 --> 2:41:04.480 personal so I I tweet from there a lot. I 2:41:04.520 --> 2:41:07.200 tweet a lot about who Justice work I feel, and 2:41:07.840 --> 2:41:10.199 all our all our work in l A I tweet, 2:41:10.200 --> 2:41:13.960 I retweet a lot of our move network and coalition work. Yeah. 2:41:14.200 --> 2:41:16.480 Just thank you for coming on to the show to 2:41:16.520 --> 2:41:21.039 talk about through Justice and the work you've been doing. Um, 2:41:21.080 --> 2:41:24.560 it's great to hear more examples of people from around 2:41:24.600 --> 2:41:27.000 the country and then hopefully you know, around the world 2:41:27.040 --> 2:41:31.240 getting involved in in this type of work. UM. Anyway, 2:41:31.280 --> 2:41:34.600 I think that it wraps up us today. You can 2:41:34.680 --> 2:41:38.120 follow this show on Twitter and Instagram at Happened Here 2:41:38.120 --> 2:41:41.440 pod and cool Zone Media. UM, subscribe to the feed, 2:41:41.520 --> 2:41:44.160 leave a five star review or whatever. Anyway, that's that's 2:41:44.280 --> 2:41:48.400 that's the show. Bye bye, everybody, say bye everybone, Bye 2:41:48.680 --> 2:41:55.680 bye everyone, by everyone. It Could Happen Here is a 2:41:55.680 --> 2:41:58.560 production of cool Zone Media. Well more podcasts from cool 2:41:58.640 --> 2:42:01.280 Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone Media dot com, 2:42:01.400 --> 2:42:03.160 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 2:42:03.160 --> 2:42:06.520 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2:42:06.560 --> 2:42:09.240 find sources for It Could Happen Here. Updated monthly at 2:42:09.240 --> 2:42:13.280 cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey, 2:42:13.400 --> 2:42:16.480 we'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from 2:42:16.520 --> 2:42:18.240 now until the heat death of the Universe.