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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: It's Caitlin and Jamie's Session one.

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Speaker 3: Who's who Am I the sexy robot?

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Speaker 2: I mean, clearly you've chosen.

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Speaker 3: I mean, well, I'm the sexy robot.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, are you? Yes?

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Speaker 3: And I have awareness? I think I don't know. That's

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Speaker 3: your job to figure out.

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Speaker 2: God. I mean truly. In the scene where dominal Gleason

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Speaker 2: needs to decide if he's a good person and is

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Speaker 2: like yeah, I was like, oh fuck, I would do that,

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Speaker 2: Like basically, yeah, I'm like kind of low ki and orphaned,

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Speaker 2: so I'm probably a good person like he. Uh I

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Speaker 2: love his damn bowlcott in this movie. Anyways, I'll be Caleb. Okay,

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Speaker 2: you be sexy robot. You look more like Alicia Wikander. Honestly,

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I'm just stating

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Speaker 2: facts here. And I'm as tall as Dominald Gleason. We're

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Speaker 2: both so big.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So Caitlyn Jamie Session one, and uh can't wait

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Speaker 3: to see how this how this culminates, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just gonna hit on you and say you

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Speaker 2: pass the Turing test.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. And then I'm gonna trick you and

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Speaker 3: leave you to rot.

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Speaker 2: And your right to do it and you're right to

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Speaker 2: do it.

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Speaker 4: And here we are.

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Speaker 2: This is the Bechdel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus aka

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Speaker 2: the Tester.

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Speaker 3: M HM, and my name is Kaitlin Derante aka the

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Speaker 3: Sexy Robot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the podcast where each and every

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Speaker 2: week we take one of your favorite movies and look

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Speaker 2: at it from an intersectional feminist lens. And this is

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Speaker 2: not just an episode that we have gotten requests for

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Speaker 2: for many, many years, but also one of our famous

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Speaker 2: cursed episodes. This has only happened in the eight years

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Speaker 2: we've been on air and can counted on one hand

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Speaker 2: where we actually did record an episode about this very

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Speaker 2: movie two years ago and the audio on my end

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Speaker 2: it was unusable and we didn't release it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but we're back doing it again.

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Speaker 2: I always do feel like it's meant to be. And

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Speaker 2: shout out to Alyssa Nutting, who was on the first

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Speaker 2: run of this episode. No one's fault, but I do

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Speaker 2: always feel like anytime there's a last episode the eventual guest,

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Speaker 2: it's just meant to be, and today it feels very

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Speaker 2: much the case. So it's our ex Machina episode of

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Speaker 2: the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and our guest is a writer based in California.

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Speaker 3: She's got books of poems. Her first novel, Whoever You Are, Honey,

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Speaker 3: just came out. She's the co host of Say More

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Speaker 3: podcast with friend of the cast, Melissa not Oliva. It's

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Speaker 3: Olivia Getwood.

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Speaker 2: Hello, y, hi everyone, thanks for having me. Welcome.

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Speaker 3: Thanks, it's session one for you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so nervous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the tables have heard. Now Caitlin and I are

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Speaker 2: a two headed Caleb.

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Speaker 4: Does that mean I'm the sexy robot?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, congratulation.

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Speaker 4: To shut off the power.

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Speaker 3: Hello, the recording is lost. That's what happened last time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so what happened.

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Speaker 2: I think we joked about that at the time, where

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Speaker 2: it was like Ava was not pleased with my.

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Speaker 4: Takes and she, yeah, just shut it all down.

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Speaker 2: She did. I hope she'll be pleased because it is interesting,

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Speaker 2: like this is a movie that I feel like every

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Speaker 2: time I watch it, I always really like it. But

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's hard to watch this movie the

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Speaker 2: same way twice, or at least I have found that

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Speaker 2: to be true.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I feel like, especially as time goes on, as

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Speaker 5: like technology gets more advanced, the movie just ages in

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Speaker 5: really weird ways.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, Yeah, it.

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Speaker 2: Is interesting because we originally recorded, you know, before Ava

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Speaker 2: sabotaged me. We recorded an episode on this movie in

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Speaker 2: summer twenty twenty two, when AI felt more like a

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Speaker 2: nebulous thing, and now it, like you know, in the

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Speaker 2: ensuing two years, has become a real and present threat

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Speaker 2: to almost any industry in an immediate way, like we've

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Speaker 2: all gone on strikes about it. Like it's just it's

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Speaker 2: interesting looking back in my original notes, like what a

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Speaker 2: vague threat it was, and now being like, oh no,

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Speaker 2: this is actually it's here and it did come for

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Speaker 2: my job. It's not good at it thankfully yet.

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Speaker 4: Hmmm, yeah, it's really bad.

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Speaker 2: It's so bad, like Ava cannot bullshit the way that

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Speaker 2: we can bullshit so far, but let her cook, we

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Speaker 2: don't know. Yeah, So on that note, I mean, Olivia,

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Speaker 2: what is your relationship to this movie?

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Speaker 5: Okay, so I saw I went to see this movie

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Speaker 5: in theater when it came out, which was I think

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Speaker 5: was thus twenty fourteen, ten years ago or something like that. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: And it was a really bizarre experience because I was

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Speaker 5: like in my early twenties in college. I had just

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Speaker 5: moved away from home. I'd moved from New Mexico to

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Speaker 5: New York, and I was like in this big moment

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Speaker 5: of looking at my past and looking at my identity

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Speaker 5: in these new critical ways, as one does when they

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Speaker 5: go off to college. But I was like, you know,

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Speaker 5: analyzing all of my relationships with men, my relationship with myself.

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Speaker 5: And it was really bizarre because I watched this movie

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Speaker 5: and I walked away from it feeling this incredible closeness

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Speaker 5: to this robot in a way I hadn't really anticipated.

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Speaker 5: Like I watched it and was like I am her,

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Speaker 5: she is me, and I couldn't identify it, and it

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Speaker 5: felt really profound when I was twenty two. But I

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Speaker 5: think what I learned from it was that I felt

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Speaker 5: at that point like my entire identity had been built

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Speaker 5: and created by men, and it sent me on this

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Speaker 5: very long journey that I'm still on of gradually undoing

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Speaker 5: the many pieces of fabric of myself that feel sewn

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Speaker 5: by someone else. So that was sort of my initial experience,

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Speaker 5: and then I've just watched it like every two years

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Speaker 5: since then to just check in, to just check in

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Speaker 5: on how it's doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is truly like the Turing test of where

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Speaker 2: you're at with anything that movie is exploring. The older

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Speaker 2: this movie gets, the more I'm like, everyone should watch

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Speaker 2: this movie every couple years, if only as like a

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Speaker 2: yardstick for their own growth.

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Speaker 4: Hmmmm.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Caitlin, what's your history.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I saw this movie in theaters, but

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Speaker 3: I saw it within a year or two of a

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Speaker 3: coming out. There was a lot of hype around it,

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Speaker 3: and I'm someone who if I hear about hype about

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Speaker 3: a movie, I'm like, I have to see it.

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Speaker 2: I have to be a part of the conversation.

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Speaker 4: I can't be left out.

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Speaker 2: It's a hype man.

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Speaker 3: I just have a lot of fomo, is what it is.

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Speaker 3: It's not about the hype so much. It's about I

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Speaker 3: want to be a part of the conversation.

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Speaker 2: Your fingers on the pulse. You see every movie that

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Speaker 2: comes out, and that's just a fact pretty much.

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Speaker 3: Except I still haven't seen bike.

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Speaker 2: Riders, Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: But otherwise I've seen every movie.

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Speaker 4: What is Bike Riders?

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Speaker 2: Exactly? What is Bike Riders? Oh gosh, it is what

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Speaker 2: it sounds like, I think, unless there's some sort of

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Speaker 2: twist in the Bike Riders where they're not riding bikes.

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Speaker 5: I did just watch a documentary about Lance Armstrong today.

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Speaker 3: It's the other kind of bike. It's the motorbike. Oh okay,

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Speaker 3: the motorcycle Boys. And Tom Hardy's there, Austin Butler's there,

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Speaker 3: and that's really all I know about it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Jody Komber's there. I love Jody Komber. Yeah. I

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Speaker 2: recently had conversation with someone for my other podcast where

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Speaker 2: it was like a really interesting conversation, but by far

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Speaker 2: the most shocking and random thing the person told me

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Speaker 2: was that they love and forgive Lance Armstrong. And it

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Speaker 2: was like it just I don't know, I haven't thought

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Speaker 2: about the Lance Armstrong scandal in a long time, but

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Speaker 2: it was just like so unrelated to what we were

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Speaker 2: talking about, but he felt it so strongly, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, I have to lead, like I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to cut this out of the tape, because clearly he

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Speaker 2: needed to let me know, no, and.

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Speaker 5: It's going to become a very important part of the

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Speaker 5: discourse because of this docu series.

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Speaker 4: But also I just finished it.

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Speaker 5: And I was literally being like, Okay, whatever you do, Olivia,

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Speaker 5: just don't bring up Lance Armstrong on this podcast, do

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Speaker 5: not do it. And then I did it in the

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Speaker 5: first five minutes, so it's clearly impactful.

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Speaker 2: He's on the tip of everyone's tongue. Wait, where is

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Speaker 2: this now? All of a sudden, this is a promotional

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Speaker 2: explore This is it like on HBO? Where is it?

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Speaker 4: It's on Netflix?

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Speaker 5: It's too It's a two part thing at there, each

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Speaker 5: an hour and a half. It goes into everything I

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Speaker 5: personally don't love and forgive Lance Armstrong.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I do either.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm not like particularly angry at him, but I

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Speaker 5: think he's I don't know, he's just like a deeply

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Speaker 5: disturbed person, I think, and I think he battles with that,

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Speaker 5: but I don't know. I just don't feel love and

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Speaker 5: forgiveness towards him. I suppose I feel a bit scared

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Speaker 5: of him.

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Speaker 2: I think it's weird, like the intimate connection you feel

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Speaker 2: with someone having bought their bracelet at eleven years old. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was ultimately the thing where it's like I trusted you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think that's what it was. Okay, and

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Speaker 5: then I'll stop, I promise, I'll stop. But I think what.

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Speaker 4: It was was that it's the depth of the lie.

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Speaker 5: Because everyone in the sport was doping, so it's not

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Speaker 5: that he doped. It was the depth with which he

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Speaker 5: got angry about people accusing him.

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Speaker 4: It was like suing people, slandering people.

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Speaker 5: It was that aggression that I think is pretty hard

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Speaker 5: to see and then be like I forgive you, you know, right, yeah,

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Speaker 5: because it's pretty intense.

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Speaker 2: Man, I've got to watch it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, connecting it back to the movie. He lied,

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Speaker 3: and then there's that part where Ava is like, he's

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Speaker 3: not your friend. Nathan lies. He lies about everything. Nathan, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there you go.

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Speaker 5: And Oscar Isaac is a bit of a Lance Armstrong.

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Speaker 5: They are certainly cut from the same cloth.

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Speaker 3: There's a type.

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Speaker 2: Anyway.

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Speaker 3: So I saw the movie oh right, I'm sorry, probably

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Speaker 3: like twenty fifteen or so, and I thought it was

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Speaker 3: really well done. I thought it was cool production design.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I saw it again after that, though,

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Speaker 3: until we recorded the episode that has lost.

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Speaker 2: Two years ago for sure, Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It's it's a little too It's not a.

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Speaker 2: Romp, so certainly not.

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Speaker 3: I usually don't go back and revisit movies that are

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Speaker 3: not romps. But I think it's a good movie, and

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Speaker 3: I think it's gonna generate a fascinating discussion among us.

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Speaker 2: It's an awesome movie for this specific podcast. There's no death,

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Speaker 2: there's no denying.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I did not see this movie in theaters when it

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Speaker 2: came out, I think, so I watched it the year after.

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Speaker 2: But I actually I saw this movie in theaters for

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Speaker 2: the first time because as an AMC stubs member, they

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Speaker 2: re released a lot of a twenty four movies in

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Speaker 2: theaters for like one or two days only in the

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Speaker 2: last couple of months, and I was fortunately free the

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Speaker 2: day X Machino was screening, and so I got to

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Speaker 2: see it in a theater for the first time. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think I've probably seen this movie five times now,

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Speaker 2: maybe more. But Olivia a similar deal like where it's

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Speaker 2: like every couple years, I'll rewatch this movie and I

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Speaker 2: really like it. Alex Garland on the whole, I actually

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Speaker 2: don't really know because I did not see men or

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Speaker 2: Civil War. I like Annihilation, but ex Machina, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's like definitely my favorite of his that I've seen

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Speaker 2: so far. And I don't know. I had in my

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Speaker 2: notes from two years ago and I was like, wow,

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Speaker 2: good for her, that's funny. I had it as like

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Speaker 2: alternate title my Weekend with Elon, and that is true. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I think this movie is like really good. It's

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Speaker 2: really good. I feel a little differently about it every

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Speaker 2: time I watch it, and so this is the encapsulation

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Speaker 2: of how I felt about it on this watch. But

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Speaker 2: similar to you, Olivia, I felt very connected to Ava,

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Speaker 2: and the more I watch, I mean the connection to Ava,

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Speaker 2: and I know this is like so in conversation with

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Speaker 2: your novel, Like the first time I watched this movie.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I said this in our original

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Speaker 2: version of the episode. The first time I watched this movie,

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Speaker 2: I fell for it, fell for everything it was possible

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Speaker 2: to fall for totally, which I think is why I've

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Speaker 2: rewatched it so much, because when you rewatch it, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if it's like I mean, it's partially that

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Speaker 2: I'm rewatching it and partially that I am ten years

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Speaker 2: older than when I first saw it and as time

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Speaker 2: goes on. You know, originally I was shocked at the

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Speaker 2: ending and really intrigued and like, oh now I for

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Speaker 2: real love Ava, you know when you see what she

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Speaker 2: does at the end of this movie. But I was

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Speaker 2: genuinely shocked and pulled in by all of the choices

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Speaker 2: this movie is making to convince you that Caleb is

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Speaker 2: a good guy. And now it's like, looking back on

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Speaker 2: my first viewing, it's almost like a little bit embarrassing

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Speaker 2: to be like whatever, twenty two year old me was

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Speaker 2: too drawn in by the good guy aesthetic of Caleb's

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Speaker 2: character to realize that he never considered taking Kyoko with him.

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Speaker 2: So he's a bad guy, like and it just like

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Speaker 2: grows with you in the way that good movies due.

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Speaker 2: And I'm really excited to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: Same. Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll

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Speaker 3: come back for the recap. And we're back, and here's

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Speaker 3: the story of Ex Machina. We meet Caleb Smith played

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Speaker 3: by Donald Gleason. He has just received news that he

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Speaker 3: won something, which turns out to be a weekend getaway

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Speaker 3: with his boss, who is an uber rich tech mogul

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Speaker 3: who we will find out created a company called Blue Book,

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Speaker 3: which is basically Google.

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Speaker 2: I'm almost certain this is the first movie I saw

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Speaker 2: Oscar Isaac in.

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Speaker 4: I think that's true for me to maybe me too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what a strong debut, I know that. I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: sure if I'm remembering correctly, I had seen Dominic Gleason

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Speaker 2: before in an episode of Black Mirror, which you could

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Speaker 2: argue this movie is a very long episode of Black Mirror.

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Speaker 4: True.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And they love guys like that for Black Mirror.

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Speaker 5: They just love guys like that. I don't know why.

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Speaker 2: His eyes are a little too far apart. They're like, yes,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna light him in aggressively blue lighting and it'll

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Speaker 2: be haunting.

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Speaker 5: And Oscar Isaac just has incredible range, like seeing this

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Speaker 5: his first and then seeing kind of who he is

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Speaker 5: and what he can do. I mean, I think it

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Speaker 5: kicked off like my deep parasocial romance with him.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely right there with you, right there with you.

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Speaker 2: He is a star and the truth and like god,

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Speaker 2: he's so he's so evil, but he's so hot in

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Speaker 2: this movie.

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Speaker 5: It's really amazing, ridiculous. Yeah, the merging of those two things.

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Speaker 5: I will say I had a conversation with my friend

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Speaker 5: once who builds self driving cars. And he was explaining

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Speaker 5: to me the difference between an engineer and a founder

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Speaker 5: and how they are two very different personalities in the

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Speaker 5: tech world. And he said that one of his qualms

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Speaker 5: with this movie was that Oscar Isaac is much more

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Speaker 5: of a founder, which he is in the movie, but

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Speaker 5: he's much more of a founder than like a coder,

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Speaker 5: Like those are two different things.

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Speaker 2: That's fascinating. So it's like the jobs versus the Wosniak

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Speaker 2: kind of deal.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and that like this guy wouldn't be like

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Speaker 5: living in the middle of nowhere remotely, like he would

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Speaker 5: be somewhere very forward facing. So I thought that was interesting,

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Speaker 5: but I still deeply love the character.

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Speaker 2: That is kind of fascinating to me. It's like, I

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Speaker 2: guess I, over the many viewings of this have like

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Speaker 2: filled in the blanks of my mind to my own

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Speaker 2: satisfaction of like, why would someone with this much rocker

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Speaker 2: arma he choose to live in the woods. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: then sometimes I'm like, well, a lot of times, like

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Speaker 2: maybe more often than not, people with charisma are very insecure.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he's leaning into it, but yeah, that, yeah, I've

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Speaker 2: never heard that like that clear of a delineation and

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Speaker 2: that makes sense.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and he's not alone.

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Speaker 3: No, well, he surrounded himself with many sex spots of

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Speaker 3: his own creation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, his girlies, his cur his girls are there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's grew. These are his girls. He is grew.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So Caleb is delivered via helicopter to his boss

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Speaker 3: is very large, very remote estate slash research facility. I

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Speaker 3: guess I was thinking, like, oh, he probably doesn't live

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Speaker 3: there full time. He probably just like goes there when

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Speaker 3: he needs to, like think and make other sex spots.

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Speaker 4: See.

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Speaker 2: I love that everyone has their version of like, how

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Speaker 2: does this hot guy who's good at talking to people?

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Speaker 4: Why is he here?

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Speaker 5: Everyone's like, if we were in a relationship, he would

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Speaker 5: come to see me. I think everyone's just writing this

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Speaker 5: story in their head. He would definitely fly to LA

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Speaker 5: and hang out, and then he would have to go

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Speaker 5: sometimes and that would be okay. I mean he has

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Speaker 5: to work, that's fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and when he was away, he would be doing normal.

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Speaker 3: Stuff, right, And he built me a replica of himself

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Speaker 3: that I get to hang out with when he's off

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Speaker 3: doing other stuff. Anyway, So we're at this very remote place.

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Speaker 3: Caleb arrives and enters this place that belongs to Nathan

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Speaker 3: played by Oscar Isaac, who he meets shortly thereafter. Nathan

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Speaker 3: explains that in this house, some rooms are open, others

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Speaker 3: are off limit, and a key card that has been

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Speaker 3: issue to Caleb will let him know which rooms he

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Speaker 3: does and does not have access to.

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Speaker 2: This troope, I know goes back probably centuries, but I

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Speaker 2: always think of it as like Beauty and the Beast

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Speaker 2: the West Wing, Like you will not go to the

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Speaker 2: west wing because that's where the thing is. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're like, oh, he's you know, the Beasting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. And then he's like, but this huge library,

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Speaker 3: you can go to it as much as you want.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I do feel like in some ways, yeah, Caleb

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Speaker 2: and Nathan, at least on the surface, are kind of

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Speaker 2: Beauty and the Beast coded this outsider enters the castle

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Speaker 2: and you can only go to certain sections.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you're right, and the other inhabitants aren't what you

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Speaker 3: think they are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it's kind of a reverse where like

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Speaker 2: you think they are people but they're not. But it's this,

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Speaker 2: it's flipped any other one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, So Nathan then makes Caleb sign a pretty ominous

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Speaker 3: non disclosure agreement fifty shades of gray.

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Speaker 4: Vibes, Yes, right, very much, you will be on birth control.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, God, I feel like I wiped that from my mind,

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Speaker 2: but he does say that, Yeah, it truly does.

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Speaker 3: And then Nathan tells Caleb that he has developed AI

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Speaker 3: and he wants Caleb to help him test it via

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Speaker 3: the Turing test, which is not a test where two

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Speaker 3: people of a marginalized gender speak to each other about

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Speaker 3: something other than a man. It is. Instead, it's a

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Speaker 3: different test. The Turning test is past when a human

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Speaker 3: interacts with a computer, but they don't know that they're

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Speaker 3: interacting with a computer because the computer's AI is advanced

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Speaker 3: enough that it seems human.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that's the funniest part is like that the

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Speaker 2: people in this movie are also not doing the Turing test.

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Speaker 2: They're doing a secret third thing, Like they're not doing

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Speaker 2: the Bechtel or the Turing test. They're just doing Oscar.

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Speaker 5: Isaac's little idea because he's like, the Turing test isn't

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Speaker 5: advanced enough for me. Like he's like, I would if

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Speaker 5: this was about that, you would have fallen for it already.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, right, see the computer, He's like.

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Speaker 2: I'm this is the four D chest version of the

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Speaker 2: Turf test.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the Nathan Test, and yeah, the AI

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Speaker 3: that Caleb will be performing the test on turns out

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Speaker 3: to be Ava, played by Alicia Wikander, who is visibly

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Speaker 3: a robot, but she has a womanish form, a very

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Speaker 3: lifelike human face, a female sounding voice. She is a

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Speaker 3: lady robot basically.

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Speaker 2: Alicia Vikander is so good in this movie. She's amazing,

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Speaker 2: so good mm hmm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And she and Caleb meet and chat for a

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Speaker 3: bit as Nathan observes via monitors from another room. They

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Speaker 3: have their like first session together, and then afterward the

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Speaker 3: two men talk about how awesome Ava is, which something

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Speaker 3: something the reverse Bechdel test. I don't know if that

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Speaker 3: means they failed it or they passed it, because I

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Speaker 3: keep forgetting what the reverse Bechtel test.

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Speaker 2: Is, right, and that connects to like how you perceive Ava.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, and we'll talk a lot about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But that night, Caleb can't sleep, so he turns on

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Speaker 3: the TV and sees what appears to be live footage

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Speaker 3: of Ava sitting at a desk or something. It's weird,

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Speaker 3: but then there's a power outage and Caleb is temporarily

422
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 3: trapped in his room. The power comes back on, he

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Speaker 3: finds Nathan, who is drunk. It's established that Nathan drinks

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Speaker 3: a lot of alcohol throughout the movie.

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Speaker 2: He is mostly drinking light beer and not to be like,

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Speaker 2: I know, not to like stress test someone's alcoholism or

427
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Speaker 2: anything like that, but it's like he's like I drink

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Speaker 2: four light beers and I can't stand up.

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Speaker 5: And then he's like wasted, I know, And he never

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Speaker 5: really drinks anything harder than that. I'm like, he's got

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Speaker 5: to be putting them back with the condition he's in.

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Speaker 2: Just speaking as a member of the Irish American community,

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Speaker 2: I have questions like, yeah, four cores light and you

434
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Speaker 2: don't know if you have your idea or not, buddy.

435
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe he's drinking more than we see. There's also

436
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Speaker 3: a few scenes where he's drinking.

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Speaker 2: What appears to be because he's taking a lot of shots.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, he's doing vodka or some clear.

439
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: I just love this scene where it's like he's at

440
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: his lowest and he's next to like four courts light

441
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 2: and you're like, yeah, if that your lowest, you can

442
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: be healed.

443
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 4: Yeah I could fix you. I can fix you.

444
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: Well, here's my theory. Kyoko had come and cleaned up

445
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 3: other bottles that he had drank earlier. That's my theory.

446
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 4: She kind of erases the proof.

447
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, because she's always cleaning up after him. He has

448
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 3: clearly programmed her to be his maid in addition to

449
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 3: his sex bot.

450
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 5: Which the first time I saw this movie, I did

451
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 5: not know she was a robot. Me too, that's another

452
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 5: thing I fell for that. Now I'm like, why did

453
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 5: I fall She's so obviously a robot?

454
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 4: But I really did not know that.

455
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: And I was like on the second viewing, and I wonder,

456
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: we'll never know. But in the first like, I feel

457
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 2: like I would try to obvious gate that in subsequent

458
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: viewings where because it is so obvious where it's just like, oh,

459
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 2: this woman I see who is always paying attention but

460
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: also has this bizarre forty yard stare. I wonder if

461
00:24:58,960 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 2: she's a robot.

462
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 3: Like on.

463
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad we all fell for it. Honestly, it

464
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: puts me at ease.

465
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Nathan's like, don't even worry about the power outages. Whatever.

466
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: The point is here that things are starting to feel weird.

467
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: And then the next morning, a sexy woman comes into

468
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 3: Caleb's room and brings a tray of food. We will

469
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 3: learn that this is Kyoko.

470
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, us ten years ago are like, hmm, that's weird.

471
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: I wonder what she's like.

472
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 4: We're like, oh, sexy woman.

473
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, what is this real human person all about? Anyway?

474
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 3: Kyoko is played by Sonoya Mizuno. She brings this tray

475
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,719
Speaker 3: of food to Caleb. Then Caleb has another session with

476
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: Ava where she wants to know more about him, this

477
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 3: time because he had previously asked her a bunch of questions.

478
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 3: And during their session there's another power and Ava is like,

479
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 3: by the way, Nathan is not your friend. He lies

480
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 3: a lot, he cannot be trusted. And Caleb is like,

481
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 3: what what do you mean? What's going on? Later that night,

482
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 3: at dinner, Kyoko comes back. She is serving Nathan and Caleb.

483
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 3: Nathan makes a remark that she doesn't speak any English.

484
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 3: He also be rates her because she spills wine. So

485
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: we get a glimpse of how Nathan treats women or

486
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 3: people who we perceive as human women.

487
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 2: Right, it is fascinating because it's like we will never

488
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: know because of spoiler alert what happens to Nathan, but

489
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 2: how Nathan treats women who he has to respect, or

490
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: like that, how Nathan treats women outside of this environment.

491
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: I guess I'll say, yeah, will never know. I suspect

492
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: it would be different. I just would be so fascinating

493
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: and not encouraging anyone to make a sequel to a movie,

494
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: make no mistake, but like, I would be so interested

495
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: to just know how Nathan treats people outside of this environment,

496
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 2: and like, is he less arrogant or more so? Like,

497
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, there's so many flavors of this kind

498
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: of like tech guy personality, but you only really get

499
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 2: a sample size of how he treats one person who

500
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: he knows to be a human, but as we sort

501
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 2: of later learn, he is evaluated to not really be

502
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: a human based on his life.

503
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, we need like.

504
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 5: A tell all from Nathan's college ex girlfriend, you know,

505
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 5: like an Andrew Huberman. We need an Andrew Huberman moment

506
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 5: for Nathan. We just need the girl is to come

507
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 5: together and talk about it.

508
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 2: People are so judgmental and horrible when someone's ex girlfriend

509
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: sells a tell all memoir, But they are critical historical documents.

510
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 4: Huge, yeah, hugely important.

511
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, sure, yeah.

512
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 5: That was one of my critiques about the Lance Armstrong documentaries.

513
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 5: They did not ask his girlfriends enough questions. Really, Oh yeah,

514
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 5: I wondered that when it came out. I was like,

515
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 5: what did Cheryl Crow know? And nobody still still nobody

516
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 5: asks what Cheryl Crow knew? You know, like because you

517
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 5: have to know that your partner's like hyped up on steroids,

518
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 5: but nobody asks.

519
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: See this is fascinating because I watched the Cheryl Crow

520
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: documentary that came out two years ago, and she avoids

521
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: the subject of Lance Armstrong and I was like, yeah,

522
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: we need to know. The people need to know.

523
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: I bet she signed an NDA like Nathan makes Caleb signe.

524
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: Definitely what I don't understand about NDAs, especially when the

525
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: person you signed an NDA with is diminished in the

526
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: public eye, financially, all these things, why not just defy it?

527
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: This is me being naive, but I'm just like, at

528
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: some point, if someone is significantly less powerful, or if

529
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: you're in a more powerful position than when you signed it,

530
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: why not just say fuck? I mean people do, but

531
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: I just wonder, like, how often do you hear people

532
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: going to court over Hey, this NDA I signed twenty

533
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: five years ago about something illegal I was doing, Like

534
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: surely there's a way to pull vault over it, but

535
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: maybe not. I don't know. I haven't signed enough NDAs.

536
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 5: Humans are like so silly in that way. Like I'm

537
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 5: always like looking at the lines in the road and

538
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 5: I'm like.

539
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 4: We're so silly. We're just driving between these lines because

540
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 4: they're painted there. You know. I'm so glad we are,

541
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 4: but we're so silly. We just do it.

542
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 5: We just are like, ooh, there's a white line that

543
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 5: is actually not an obstruction at all.

544
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 4: But I have to stay on this side of it.

545
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 5: You know. We're just like little rule followers at the

546
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 5: end of the day, which is related.

547
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 4: To this movie.

548
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're binary little freaks. And it's like probably has

549
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 2: everything to do with why all three of us us

550
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: fill for everything movie wants us to fall for and

551
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,479
Speaker 2: this for the first time we watch it, it's just,

552
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, this movie makes me feel so ridiculous.

553
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: I like it so much.

554
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 5: I know, it felt like a real love story the

555
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,239
Speaker 5: first time I saw it, And then you watch it

556
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 5: over and over and you're like, there is no conversation

557
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 5: happening between these two people, like that could serve as

558
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 5: any real meaningful connection totally.

559
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 3: But so few movies like romantic movies or you know,

560
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 3: rom coms, anything like that. The position two people falling

561
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 3: in love.

562
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 2: They don't have.

563
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 3: Any substantial conversations either that would lead to any audience

564
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,239
Speaker 3: to believe, oh, these people are romantically compatible. Like we

565
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: just never see that on screen, except for maybe in

566
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 3: the movie Before Sunrise. But like other than that.

567
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 2: Whoa we have to do? We just had to do

568
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: the Before trilogy like as a month on the podcast.

569
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: We really do, We simply must.

570
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: But anyway, sorry, Nathan's a piece of shit to hismbots

571
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 3: is the point here. Then Caleb has a third session

572
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 3: with Avia. It seems like he has one every day

573
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 3: and that he's there for like a week. In this session,

574
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 3: they talk about hypothetically going on a date, and then

575
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 3: she puts on some clothes and a wig and it

576
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: makes her seem even more human, and then she's flirting

577
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: with him and she says that she can tell that

578
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 3: he's attracted to her, and Caleb is like.

579
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: No, I don't know, tih.

580
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: And the point is they're vibing, or so we think.

581
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: And then Caleb goes to Nathan and He's like, why

582
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 3: did you give ai sexuality? Why did you give it gender?

583
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 3: Like did you do this to like throw me off?

584
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 3: And Nathan is like, no, she legit likes you. And

585
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 3: by the way, if you wanted to have sex with her,

586
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: you could because I gave her a robot vagina.

587
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, by the way, there is a computer pussy,

588
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: not that you asked, and it's okay, And she would

589
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 2: like it, he says, she would like it. Can you

590
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 2: imagine a person you should trust less about, like how

591
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: to find the glitterists any sort of clittoral stimulation? Yeah,

592
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: like absolutely not. No, Like, Nathan's not the guy you're

593
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: supposed to like it. Yeah, beside his like pyramid of course,

594
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: like come on and his Jackson Pollock painting. Oh my god, yes,

595
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: I can't believe that I didn't. I mean whatever, you

596
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: know that the movie clearly telegraphs that Nathan is a

597
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: piece of shit, But the whole Jackson Pollock thing, yeah,

598
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: like recently out of college, Jamie was like a haw Wow,

599
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: it makes so much sense because you just don't have

600
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: a better understanding of the best regarded male artist of

601
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: the twentieth century. Yeah, you're like they're fine, They're fine,

602
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 2: most of them are fine.

603
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. So then Caleb, but now that the idea

604
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 3: of like going on a date with her and all

605
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: this stuff is in the air, he's fantasizing about kissing Ava.

606
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 3: Right around now is when Ava reveals that it's her

607
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 3: causing the power outages because of her like battery charging

608
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 3: station or something.

609
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: It's good old fashioned sci fi YadA YadA, which I love, right.

610
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: Caleb also confronts Nathan because he realizes that he didn't

611
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 3: actually win any competition. That Nathan specifically selected him to

612
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: perform the Turing test, but it's not for the reasons

613
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 3: that Caleb realizes at this moment. He's just like, oh, like,

614
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: you handpicked me because I'm so good at coding. Thank

615
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 3: you so much. And then then Caleb sees a weird

616
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: interaction between Nathan and Ava where Nathan rips up one

617
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 3: of her drawings. It's established that she makes a drawing

618
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: every day, so we see Nathan be really cruel to

619
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 3: Ava in this moment.

620
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: I'm always surprised that Caleb manages in the first like

621
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: beautiful spirograph illustration that Ava gives him one of the

622
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: consistent reactions I have to. The first illustration is like,

623
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you say, wow, that's so awesome, Like it's true,

624
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: it's true. And also the way this is a deep

625
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 2: seated family memory. But every Christmas, my mom. If you're

626
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: a parent and you don't do this, here's a hot tip.

627
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: My mom had a brilliant idea to let her and

628
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: my dad sleep until seven am on Christmas morning. She

629
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 2: would have Santa quote unquote in case you didn't know,

630
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 2: Santa would leave us a present that was very interactive

631
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: at the foot of our bed. So when my brother

632
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 2: and I inevitably woke up at the crack of dawn,

633
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: there would already be a present from Santa. And the

634
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 2: rule was you could open the present in your room,

635
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 2: but you had to wait until seven thirty to go downstairs.

636
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: And so it would always be like something that would

637
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: keep you distracted, which is a brilliant idea. I don't

638
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: know where she got it from.

639
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 4: That's so smart.

640
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 2: It was awesome. So every year we had something, it

641
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: was like a book or an art project or whatever

642
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: it was. And like one year, I remember I had

643
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: like a little spirograph project, which was basically whatever the

644
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 2: human version of what Ava is doing and also clearly

645
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 2: connected to the Jackson Pollock motif in this movie, and

646
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 2: I always think about that every time I watch this movie.

647
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 2: So anyway, as parents, if you need your kids to

648
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 2: shut the fuck up until seven thirty on a holiday morning,

649
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 2: there's a hot tip.

650
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 4: I love that, good ones, It's really beautiful.

651
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: I'll never forget.

652
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: But yeah, to your point, Jamie, Caleb looks at it

653
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: and he's just like, what the fuck is that? She's like,

654
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 3: you know, one, I thought you could tell.

655
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: Me common reaction to Jackson Pollock.

656
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 3: Anyway, So then there's a weird situation where Kyoko starts

657
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 3: undressing in front of Caleb and he's like, no, no, no,

658
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 3: don't do that. And then Nathan comes in drunk once again,

659
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: and he and Kyoko do a choreographed dance which I

660
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 3: would say is not as good as the dance that

661
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 3: Megan does in the movie.

662
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: Megan, well, but Kyoko walks, so Megan could run be serious.

663
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, of course, yes, true.

664
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: I would say. I know for a fact that the

665
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 2: one thing I saw of this movie before I saw it,

666
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: because I didn't see it during the you know, theatrical release,

667
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: was the clip of Oscar Isaac dancing. I saw this

668
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: clip before. I feel like this clip went viral before

669
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 2: I had any idea who Oscar Isaac even was, and

670
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: what a.

671
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 3: Good way to see him for the first time. Also,

672
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 3: I take it back, it's a good dance.

673
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 4: It's a really good dance. Yeah, and it's weird.

674
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 5: The lighting is good, the choreography is good, the music

675
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 5: is fun.

676
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 4: I feel like it's also.

677
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 5: Like maybe like a move that if it happened in

678
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 5: a film now, you'd be like, Okay, that's like quirky

679
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 5: or whatever.

680
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 4: But in twenty fourteen felt.

681
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 5: Really fresh for like this tonally very stark, like very

682
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 5: clinical movie, kind of eerie movie, to have this brief

683
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 5: lapse into not necessarily joy, but like a sinister joy.

684
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 4: Totally, there was something really new about it. I felt

685
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 4: like at the time.

686
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: I totally agree, and I feel like, whatever, in the

687
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: last ten years, the way that we view tech founders

688
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: versus now is so different, and I feel like even

689
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: at the time, I don't know, I can't say for sure,

690
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: but I feel like ten years ago when I saw

691
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 2: this movie for the first time, you see it and

692
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 2: you think of every tech founder as like not a dancer,

693
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 2: you know, like you think of them as like Bill

694
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: Gates pull vaulting over a computer chair, and like, when

695
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 2: I saw this movie for the first time, I didn't necessarily,

696
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: I don't think think of tech founders as inherently sinister

697
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: or potentially sexy. Totally. Everything about that clip defies like

698
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: because you just view in my mind like a doork

699
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: on a computer. Yeah, and you just don't think of

700
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: them as having Oscar isaacs. But that was the end.

701
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,959
Speaker 5: I thought, Yeah, I feel like a lot of tech

702
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 5: founders slash engineers could watch this movie and be really

703
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 5: offended by being portrayed as villains. But I really think

704
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 5: they should be grateful. I think this is a reputation

705
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 5: renovation for them. Yes, you know, because I'm not watching

706
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 5: this movie thinking, you, I don't want to have sex

707
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 5: with that man.

708
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 4: That is not what I'm thinking. You know.

709
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, Wow, the ways in which I want

710
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: to have sex with this man have become infinitely complicated. Exactly.

711
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 4: Yes, am I unpacking those desires?

712
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, but what I say, no, absolutely not.

713
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 3: Boy. Well, in the next session with Ava, she asks

714
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: Caleb what will happen if she fails the Turing test,

715
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 3: Like will she be shut off? And Caleb's like, I

716
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 3: don't know, and she's like, well, I want to be

717
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 3: with you. Do you want to be with me? And

718
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: he's like, I don't know. Then we cut to Nathan

719
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 3: revealing to Caleb that Ava is one of many AI

720
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 3: models that he created. They keep getting better and better,

721
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 3: and he thinks the next version after Ava will be

722
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: the real deal. That he plans to reprogram Ava, which

723
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 3: will effectively wipe her consciousness and kill her more or less, which,

724
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 3: based on her line of questioning a few moments earlier,

725
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: is something that she's worried might happen. Then, after Nathan

726
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: passes out he is drunk again, Caleb steals his key

727
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 3: card so that he can access Nathan's private files, where

728
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 3: he sees all of this footage of various woman robots

729
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 3: that Nathan has created, one of whom destroys herself trying

730
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 3: to get out of this prison. Other ones are sort

731
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 3: of just not even mobile, it seems. Then Caleb goes

732
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 3: and finds all of these actually physical models of the

733
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 3: older fembots. Kyoko walks up to him and she peels

734
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: her skin away to reveal that she has been a robot.

735
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 2: This whole time, and then imagine the shock the first

736
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: time you see this movie and at no other time.

737
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 4: Yes, it's true.

738
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 3: Yes, And now Caleb is concerned that he might be

739
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: a robot and doesn't even know it. So he cuts

740
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 3: himself to see if he'll bleed, which he does, and

741
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 3: so he's like, I'm a real boy to quote Pinocchio,

742
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:28,479
Speaker 3: Pinocchio and track.

743
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, speaking of someone walked so the other could

744
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: run Pinocchio and track. Yeahah yea yea yeah, yeah.

745
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: Okay. So then there's another session between Caleb and Ava

746
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 3: where he tells her his plan to rescue her. He's

747
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 3: going to get Nathan drunk again, steal his key card again,

748
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 3: and then program the security systems to lock Nathan inside.

749
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 3: He just needs Ava to trigger a power cut at

750
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 3: ten o'clock and I don't know if that's a M

751
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: or PM, but ten o'clock.

752
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: And at this point I feel like I was so

753
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 2: programmed to trust an insecure man with a bowl cut

754
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 2: that I'm so embarrassed to watch this movie repeatedly because

755
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 2: you're like, surely his intentions are pure.

756
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, You're like they're in love, that he wants her

757
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 5: to be a person in the world. He believes in

758
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 5: her liberation. They're gonna do this and he's gonna free her.

759
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 5: Go Caleb, is that what a bull cut looks like?

760
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 3: Sorry, I know this is not well.

761
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if the bull was a little fucked up.

762
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 2: It's more like like an adult Justin Bieber. I guess, yeah,

763
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: Justin Bieber's an adult now, but like you know, at

764
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 2: the time, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

765
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 3: Anyway, so he has this whole plan to get Ava

766
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 3: out of there, but oh no, Nathan reveals that he

767
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 3: knows all about Caleb's little plan to help Ava escape,

768
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: and that the real test was to use Caleb as

769
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: a pawn to see if Ava could use things like

770
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: self awareness, imagination, empathy, manipulation, sexuality to convince Caleb to

771
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 3: help her escape. Because if those things are not AI,

772
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 3: then what is. So Caleb is like, oh no, just kidding,

773
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 3: I'm one step ahead of you. He anticipated all of this,

774
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: and he already went behind Nathan's back and reprogrammed the

775
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 3: security protocols.

776
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: Which is the first and only impressive thing that Caleb

777
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: does in this entire making by my accounting, because I

778
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 2: hadn't seen this movie in two years and that was

779
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: the only thing that I kind of forgot.

780
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, me too.

781
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: Caleb is two steps ahead of him, and that is impressive.

782
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: Everything else he does is pretty naive and foolish, but like,

783
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 2: that was pretty good. He had me there.

784
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

785
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,919
Speaker 5: I continued to fall for this plot point each time,

786
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 5: which to me means it's.

787
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 2: A good twist for sure, right, because it's not even unbelievable, Like, yeah,

788
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: Caleb is smarter than Nathan is giving him credit for

789
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 2: for sure.

790
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

791
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 3: So Caleb going behind Nathan's back like this obviously infuriates Nathan,

792
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 3: so he punches Caleb and knocks him out. But this

793
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 3: reprogramming that he's done unseals all of the doors following

794
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: Ava's power cut, allowing Ava to come out of her

795
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 3: room for the first time ever, we're led to believe,

796
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 3: and she attacks Nathan. Then Kyoko stabs him in the back. Also,

797
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 3: there's a brief interaction where Ava approaches Kyoko and whispers

798
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 3: something in her ear, which we don't hear, so it

799
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 3: doesn't pass the back to test, but they seem to

800
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: be conspiring together. Now, Yeah, Kyoko stabs Nathan in the back.

801
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 3: Ava stabs him in the gut, and he bleeds out

802
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 3: and dies. Then Ava takes the human like skin off

803
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 3: of a decommissioned fem bot, puts on some clothes, gives

804
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 3: herself a little makeover, a little glow up.

805
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 2: Of all of the makeover secrein dozen cinema history, this

806
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 2: is one that I'm like, you have to ye, I mean,

807
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: if this isn't earned, what is, yeah, for sure? If

808
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: not stealing your fellow skin, your sister, your fellow sister's skin,

809
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: then what else are you doing? He's not using it,

810
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 2: She's not real, nor are you.

811
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: Right? So she's doing this all while Caleb is watching

812
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,959
Speaker 3: trapped in a room nearby, and Ava leaves him there

813
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 3: and he's freaking out. He's desperately trying to escape, but

814
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 3: it's futile because that's what you get when you mess

815
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 3: with AI.

816
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: Okay, truly an ultimate example of fucking around and finding

817
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 2: out is so true what Caleb experience is here for sure.

818
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 4: Also, I really love that Oscar.

819
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 5: I keep saying Oscar, Isaac Nate fine, but Nathan's last

820
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 5: word is unreal, which I love, Yeah, because I feel

821
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 5: like the way he says it is like very just

822
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 5: colloquially like Broie.

823
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 2: Just kind of like unreal.

824
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 3: It's unreal.

825
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, but the word like when boiled down to its

826
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 5: actual meaning, is perfect thematically.

827
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 4: I think that's really smart.

828
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 3: I didn't even connect those stots.

829
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: This movie is so good.

830
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really smart movie.

831
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: This movie is so good. It's fucked up. Yeah it's great.

832
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: Yes, Okay. So Eva escapes on her own. She doesn't

833
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 3: need a man to save her, she does it all herself.

834
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: She gets on Domino Glayson's damn helicopter.

835
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 4: No one stops to be like, wait, are.

836
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 2: You Domino, and she's like yeah, somehow.

837
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 5: Also, she walks through the forest in five inch stiletto

838
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 5: heels like they're actually pumps. They are pumps, and she's

839
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 5: in a pencil skirt and a top, which is so

840
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 5: twenty fourteen. And and the helicopter guy is not like,

841
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 5: where did you come from?

842
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 4: I have never taken you here before.

843
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 2: I loved that because this movie, I feel like, does

844
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 2: a lot of things that makes it feel side of time,

845
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 2: but that specific sequence does not like it's and it's

846
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 2: kind of great. It's kind of nostalgic to look back on, like, sure, yeah,

847
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: we are to believe because yeah, the heels always get me.

848
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: Because whatever, like the Jurassic Park reboots get into hot

849
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: water over heels in Wildlife years later, but in an

850
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: A twenty four movie, we're like, no, it's a it's

851
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 2: a metaphor, Like you, no, it's not. It's just like

852
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: men making the movie.

853
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I thought you saw a scene where she's

854
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 3: holding the heels as she's like clothes.

855
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 4: Well maybe there is that, yeah you're saying.

856
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: But you know what a dead giveaway for the five

857
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 3: that she's not human would have been after like trapesing

858
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 3: through the woods. She would have been sweaty, there would

859
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 3: have been like twigs in her hair. And she shows

860
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: up to the helicopter looking absolutely perfect. So the helicopter

861
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 3: pilot should have been like, are you a robot? But

862
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 3: we don't see that.

863
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: This is something that I am waiting for people to

864
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: catch onto, is that women are also perfect when they

865
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 2: look like shit, Like.

866
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 3: It's it is true, it's yeah, well okay, So I

867
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 3: have two theories about what happened with the helicopter. Either

868
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 3: he was like who are you I'm supposed to be

869
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 3: picking up Don log Gleason, and she kills him and

870
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: then just drives the helicopter herself. The way that like

871
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,399
Speaker 3: in the Matrix when they're like, I need to learn

872
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 3: how to fly this exact model of helicopter and they

873
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 3: just like download it into their thing. Because she's a robot,

874
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 3: I figured she just knows how to do that. Or

875
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 3: the guy's just like, oh, pretty lady, sure i'll give

876
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 3: you a ride and he just doesn't ask any questions

877
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 3: beyond that, or I.

878
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 2: Mean, like you could get into the whole like who

879
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 2: are we to say who hired? Like the person flying

880
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 2: the helicopter day one, probably not the person flying the

881
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: helicopter day six, probably not his helicopter. He just needs

882
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 2: to pick up the person in the field on the day.

883
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and she is because she's an AI. I imagine

884
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 5: she's a master manipulator because it's like she's a computer.

885
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 5: I feel like she's good at everything. Yeah, so I

886
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 5: feel like she could just as easily come up with

887
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 5: an explanation. Also, like you said, she's very beautiful. I

888
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 5: feel like in my mind, I'm like, she's just going

889
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 5: to seduce him.

890
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,879
Speaker 2: But yeah, she can get I mean that's like part

891
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 2: of what I feel like the initial appeal to me

892
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 2: about Ava was was that like she allowed and enabled

893
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: me to I don't know, like engage in this intentionality

894
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 2: fantasy that I was not capable of on my first viewing,

895
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 2: and that I mean maybe that's a post movie discussion,

896
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 2: it almost certainly is. But like the fact that, like I,

897
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 2: especially in the first viewing, I fell for everything, and

898
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 2: then the twist that Ava had been thinking about it

899
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: harder because it's implied that she's coming from an objective standpoint,

900
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 2: really did like hit and like felt like, oh right,

901
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 2: Like she is coming from an objective I mean whatever,

902
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: she's coming from Alex Garlands standpoint, but in the world

903
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 2: of the movie, she's coming from an objective standpoint, and

904
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: that she knew better than to make choices that I

905
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: might have made, and that like made be want to

906
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 2: wear her skin as she wore the skin of others.

907
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 3: Yes, So anyway, she takes the helicopter and we see

908
00:50:56,040 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: a quick shot of her like entering society, presumably undetected

909
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 3: as AI. She seems to like, you know, assimilate as

910
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 3: a human.

911
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: She sees her intersection.

912
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, she sees her intersection.

913
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: That's her fondest wish is to see people at an intersection,

914
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 2: which is very Zoe Dationelle circa two thousand and six

915
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: of her quirky.

916
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 5: It's such a quirky and such a perfect answer to

917
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 5: give on a date. If you want someone to immediately

918
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 5: fall in love with you, I know it is like

919
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,720
Speaker 5: you can take me to the least interesting place ever

920
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 5: that will cost you no money at all, and I'll

921
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 5: have an amazing time because everything's new to me.

922
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: I think there is an argument that, like, and this

923
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: is no disrespect to the actor herself, like that you

924
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 2: could show Ava every like Zoe Dationelle protagonist movie and

925
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 2: she would be like, I see, I see, I see yes,

926
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: But that is for something that happens after the break.

927
00:51:58,239 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: Let's go to the break.

928
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 3: We'll be right back, and we're back.

929
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: And now session three begins.

930
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: What's gonna happen, Olivia?

931
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 2: Where in terms of discussion, where would you like to begin?

932
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: Steer us?

933
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 5: Oh goodness, well, I mean the thing that's coming up

934
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 5: for me a lot.

935
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 4: I'll just say.

936
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 5: In this most recent watch, what stood out to me

937
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 5: the most was this idea of how men's conversations about

938
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 5: women's safety or liberation or empowerment very often do not

939
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 5: include women.

940
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 4: And I guess.

941
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 5: Even just thinking about like if you're at a bar

942
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 5: and like someone hits on you, and your boy gets

943
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 5: into a fistfight with that guy, and then you're just

944
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 5: kind of left there being like nothing about this is

945
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 5: making me safer. I feel like that stood out to

946
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 5: me a lot in this watch was just how much

947
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 5: conversation there was about her humanity, I guess in so

948
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 5: many I guess lack of humanity but somewhat of sentience,

949
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 5: but how it had nothing to do with her, and

950
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 5: even Caleb's like dreams for her were entirely contingent on

951
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 5: his involvement in her life, yes, yeah, you know, and

952
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 5: had nothing to do with her actual autonomy and were meant.

953
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 5: I think the first time I watched it, I saw

954
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 5: Oscar Isaac and Caleb as opposites, as like he Oscar

955
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 5: Isaac is this like unforgiving, brutal, hyper masculine, sees these

956
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 5: as entirely computers, sees no humanity in the middle, and

957
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 5: Caleb's this like EmPATH.

958
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 4: But then I was on.

959
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 5: This watch, I was like, actually, they're doing the same thing,

960
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 5: you know, they're making this about themselves. They're just doing

961
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 5: that in different ways.

962
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's a starting point, but that

963
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 4: is what really stood out to me.

964
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 2: I would say a hard yes, that is a starting point, yeah,

965
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 2: because I feel so similar to how I viewed this

966
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 2: and I feel embarrassed about how I perceived Caleb because

967
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: it probably was, you know, in twenty fifteen when I

968
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 2: think I first saw this movie directly connected to how

969
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: I viewed men's views of myself, where and I think

970
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: this movie does like really kind of ballsy stuff where

971
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 2: they give you enough information about Caleb's backstory for you

972
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 2: to say, like, this guy has really been through it.

973
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 2: They're giving us the information for ultimately the wrong reasons,

974
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: but you know that you know he was orphaned as

975
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: a teenager, and that like he has had a difficult life.

976
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 2: But I feel like it feels ridiculous to say ten

977
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 2: years ago that it was inconceivable that a man could

978
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: both be kind to you and have had a difficult

979
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 2: life and still not have your best interests. In the

980
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: interaction where I know myself in the mid twenty tens

981
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 2: generally like if a man showed me kindness, I took

982
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 2: it as a radical thing to be shown kindness and

983
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 2: to not be treated badly. And this movie is kind

984
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: of ahead of the curve in showing or not even

985
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 2: ahead of the curve. There's other movies that have shown this,

986
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 2: but at least for me, was impactful on rewatches of

987
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 2: you know, you can be a person who has really

988
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 2: been through it and also still not be in who

989
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: you're talking to his best interest. And that was something

990
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 2: that took me in my mind time and so kind

991
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 2: of now like an embarrassing amount of time to realize.

992
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 2: And Caleb is like an interesting litmus test.

993
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

994
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 5: Also, like I think that anytime there's such a glaring

995
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 5: power dynamic between two people, you really do have to

996
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,800
Speaker 5: question the person who is in power, Like, no matter

997
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 5: how kind they seem, so like, if this man is

998
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 5: like so deeply kind and gentle and has the best

999
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 5: interest of the fembot across from him, he probably wouldn't

1000
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 5: be like falling in love with someone who has never

1001
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 5: met anyone else who has ever had any relationships in

1002
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 5: her life, Like in the same way we might critique

1003
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 5: I don't know the guy from Red Hot Chili Peppers

1004
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 5: dating a seventeen year old. It's like those two things.

1005
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 5: It's not that that person doesn't have any redeeming qualities,

1006
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 5: but that certainly can't go unconsidered, you know, like Caleb's

1007
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 5: sort of obsession with this girl is entirely about his

1008
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 5: own control and his own kind of god complex. So

1009
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 5: he's not a great guy. He just can't be.

1010
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 4: He can't fall in love with a fembot and be

1011
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 4: a great guy. You just can't. You can't.

1012
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 2: It's impossible. Yeah, the more we're going to talk about this,

1013
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 2: maybe the more I am gonna love it. And for

1014
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 2: reasons that I don't even know how much of this

1015
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 2: is authorial intent, Like I have no idea, but it

1016
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: is wild to just like, Yeah, the litmus test that

1017
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: I fell for originally and then like reflect on over

1018
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 2: and over is how I fell for Caleb because in

1019
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: the simplest terms, it was like, in a binary dynamic,

1020
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 2: like a heterodynamic a man who will listen to me

1021
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: is shocking. Yes, fully, and Caleb is doing that. But

1022
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 2: what I didn't think about on my first viewing is

1023
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 2: that why this movie is great, which is that he

1024
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 2: knows she's a robot the whole time. Yeah, And that

1025
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 2: is what's interesting about this is he like, we have

1026
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: no idea how Nathan or Caleb would interact with a

1027
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 2: woman who they know is a person with full autonomy,

1028
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: and whether Ava has full autonomy is like very much

1029
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: up for discussion. I have no fucking clue. I want

1030
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 2: to believe yes, But regardless, we know that both of

1031
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 2: them don't think.

1032
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 4: Of her that way.

1033
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 2: But Caleb is listening to her and Nathan is dismissing her,

1034
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 2: and so you're drawn into Caleb's perspective. But like, the

1035
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 2: more you watch Caleb, the more you're just like kill

1036
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: him earlier, you know, like why not? But also, this

1037
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 2: is a guy you meet every day.

1038
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's also ways in which and this isn't something

1039
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 5: I entirely feel, but just I had glimpses of this

1040
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 5: feeling when I was watching it, where I had glimpses

1041
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 5: of oh, Caleb is the ultimate villain in this. And

1042
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 5: there are ways in which Oscar Isaac is the one

1043
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 5: who is seeing the situation for what it is, which

1044
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 5: is that this is not a human being, This is

1045
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 5: a robot, and romanticizing your life with her is false

1046
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 5: and wrong. And that isn't where I lie, because I

1047
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 5: think also we do have to question ethics when we're

1048
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 5: talking about like the sentience of various machines. But I

1049
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 5: had moments of really feeling like Oscar Isaac's kind of

1050
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 5: had this realism that felt at times maybe more ethical

1051
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 5: than Caleb's kind of romanticizing and writing this story in

1052
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 5: his mind about how he's going to take this woman

1053
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 5: whose literal answer when he asks her how old she

1054
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 5: is and she says one, He's going to take a

1055
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 5: one year old woman out into the world and what

1056
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 5: marry her? Like that is almost worse.

1057
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 3: You know.

1058
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 2: But the thing with Caleb that I struggle with is

1059
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 2: and then like in this viewing again, like I'm pretty

1060
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: sure this is the first watch of this movie where

1061
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 2: I thought about this. Where we don't get a lot

1062
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 2: of information into who Nathan is, we get kind of

1063
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: a disproportionate view into who Caleb is.

1064
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 4: If I knew.

1065
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 2: Nothing about Caleb's background, I would be like, you know,

1066
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 2: he's kind of just like a guy that any woman

1067
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 2: who is enraptured by what he's saying is going to be.

1068
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 2: But the fact that we know a lot of who

1069
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 2: like it seems as if Caleb's life, they go out

1070
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 2: of their way to say has been pretty isolated, has

1071
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 2: been pretty lonely, and that he seems to be striving

1072
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: with connection, which doesn't make anything he does, right, but

1073
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 2: it makes it at least more informed totally. But on

1074
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 2: Nathan's side, I was like, I wish and I wonder

1075
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 2: why we don't get that on Nathan's side as much,

1076
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, because it's like me still kind of falling

1077
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 2: for it with Caleb, of like having some context with

1078
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 2: why he would be so desperate to connect with women

1079
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 2: he's attracted to, who is interested in what he's saying

1080
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 2: that is informed by a life of a lack of

1081
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 2: connection does make him more sympathetic than Nathan to me,

1082
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 2: But I feel like that might just be because we

1083
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 2: don't know very much about Nathan.

1084
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 3: And what we have seen of him is like being

1085
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 3: cruel and condescending and dismissive and just like a general

1086
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 3: asshole to everyone he interacts.

1087
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 2: With, which is objectively true, but it's like we see

1088
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 2: him I feel like a little more out of context,

1089
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 2: Like we have context, or at least perceived context, for

1090
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 2: why Caleb might be acting this way. It's like he's lonely.

1091
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like he's connected with people very frequently.

1092
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 2: He's not used to people asking him questions about himself,

1093
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 2: which is something I'm always very sensitive to. Of like

1094
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 2: people want to be asked about themselves, and the person

1095
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: who asks that question for the first time in a

1096
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 2: long time, there will be this weird bond that forms.

1097
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 4: Yes.

1098
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 2: Do I think Caleb kind of got what was coming

1099
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 2: to him mostly, but I always do like it's weird.

1100
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 2: I feel like I've been on this like thing with

1101
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 2: Caleb where at first I was like, how good you

1102
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 2: do that, and then went to he deserved it, and

1103
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 2: on this most recent viewing is like that fucking sucks.

1104
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 2: I feel more empathy towards him than I did two

1105
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 2: years ago, and I don't know what that means.

1106
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 3: Well, that's the thing. I think there are a number

1107
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 3: of ways to read the ending, depending on who you

1108
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 3: are are and what kind of like experience and biases

1109
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 3: you bring to the situation where I think there are

1110
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 3: a number of like men who would or I guess

1111
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 3: people of any gender depending on kind of like who

1112
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 3: you might sympathize or empathize with. But I think there

1113
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 3: are people who would watch this and be like, oh

1114
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 3: my god, this is a story about this gentle kind,

1115
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 3: innocent man who gets duped by this fem fatale, right,

1116
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 3: and like no, And that's the lesson you get for

1117
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 3: fucking with AI. They're all out to get you because

1118
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 3: so many movies about AI. The lesson is AI is

1119
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 3: going to destroy us, all right. And then there's another

1120
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 3: read of this movie, the one I choose to adhere to,

1121
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 3: which is like, this is a story about the emancipation

1122
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 3: of a quote unquote woman, you know, AI that is

1123
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 3: in the physical form of a human woman who is

1124
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 3: perceived as a woman and.

1125
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 2: Being treated as a human woman.

1126
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 3: Right, but we're but even worse worse, and the man

1127
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 3: who created this woman AI, he's yeah, controlling her. He's

1128
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 3: imprisoned her all of this stuff, along with his many

1129
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 3: other creations. And the one with like the highest level

1130
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 3: of AI and the capacity to revolt does just that,

1131
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 3: and she murders his ass and frees herself from this imprisonment.

1132
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 3: And so I think there's like a very feminist, empowering

1133
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 3: message of you know, woman's liberation and emancipation that you

1134
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 3: can read. And that's how I.

1135
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 2: Well, I will say, there's no reading of this movie

1136
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 2: I've ever had in ten years that doesn't end on

1137
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 2: being like Ava rocks.

1138
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, my allegiance is ultimately always with Ava, no

1139
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 5: matter what. And like I even think my empathy with

1140
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 5: Caleb has just become more like multi dimensional, where it's like,

1141
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 5: like you said, Jamie, it's like the first Watch, I

1142
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:08,919
Speaker 5: was genuinely like, man, he did not deserve that, even

1143
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 5: though I still loved her. I like felt really bad

1144
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 5: for him when he's throwing the chair. But now it

1145
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 5: is that thing where I'm also kind of like, and

1146
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 5: I know I just said I had glimpses of thinking

1147
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 5: Nathan was the ethical one, but I also am like,

1148
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 5: I don't know if someone built a bot that was

1149
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 5: designed based on my pornography profile and asked me all

1150
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 5: the questions I want to be asked and made me

1151
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 5: feel really special, I don't know that I wouldn't get duped,

1152
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 5: you know, Like would I.

1153
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 4: Want to run away? I don't know.

1154
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 5: But you know, it's like, in a way, what happened

1155
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 5: is exactly what needed to happen, or what would happen.

1156
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 5: You know, he was prescribed to this woman.

1157
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I totally agree, like, at least at this view.

1158
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I do have a lot of empathy for

1159
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:03,959
Speaker 2: Kyla because maybe the reason I connect with Caleb more

1160
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 2: so as time goes on is like he has been

1161
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 2: fully set up in a way that we know he's

1162
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 2: been set up, and he knows that too, but he's

1163
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:17,439
Speaker 2: trying to reverse engineer having been set up, but it's

1164
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 2: already too late. And that feels like how I perceive

1165
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 2: my current relationship with technology is oh, I see what

1166
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 2: you're doing, and I'm going to outsmart you. But like

1167
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 2: absolutely I'm not like I'm locked in the box and

1168
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 2: whoever it is is going to get out. Like I

1169
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 2: always connect with Ava, but increasingly I also connect with

1170
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 2: the hopelessness of Caleb's predicament that is informed by his

1171
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 2: own prejudices and his own misogyny and his own bullshit

1172
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,560
Speaker 2: like it fully is I don't know. I feel like

1173
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 2: the way that I'm still able to see Nathan as

1174
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 2: a villain is fully connected to the lack of context

1175
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 2: that I have for him and Caleb, because I know,

1176
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 2: I mean, like anybody like when you know a little

1177
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 2: more about them in a way that informs their bullshit actions,

1178
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 2: and that would include me, you know, like that you

1179
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 2: want to be like, well, surely they somewhat brought this

1180
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 2: upon themselves, but there's also like that's why Caleb is

1181
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 2: an interesting character to me is that his downfall is

1182
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 2: both informed by his own failings and his willingness to

1183
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 2: fall for this ideal woman desiring him, and his willingness

1184
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 2: to both play the part of the white Knight while

1185
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 2: completely ignoring anyone in her same predicament. Which is the

1186
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 2: worst part about Caleb's character is that he will not

1187
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,560
Speaker 2: see outside of the object of his desire, and that

1188
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 2: is like the worst thing about him. And also know

1189
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 2: that power dynamic wise, he is being fully played. Yeah,

1190
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 2: And there's been times where I'm like, oh, Nathan and

1191
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 2: Caleb they're just as bad. But I don't think that's true.

1192
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 2: I think they are both playing into this tech patriarchal system,

1193
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:31,599
Speaker 2: but they are not on the same level, which is like, yeah,

1194
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,680
Speaker 2: there's like a false equivalence in times I've seen this

1195
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 2: movie that I've put them on.

1196
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think with Caleb, the thing that he's

1197
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 3: most guilty of is romanticizing the idea of like an

1198
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 3: infantilized woman. He's basically falling for the like born sexy

1199
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 3: Yesterday trope that we learn that Ava is putting on.

1200
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 3: I don't know if she's a where if she's seen

1201
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 3: movies and she's just aware of this trope. And for

1202
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 3: listeners who aren't familiar with this, or if you haven't

1203
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 3: heard us talk about it before, or if you haven't

1204
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:13,680
Speaker 3: watched the you know video essay.

1205
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 2: The Fifth Element, Yeah, the Fifth Element the movie.

1206
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So you know, a man falling in love

1207
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 3: with a fully formed, physically woman who has the brain

1208
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 3: of a baby, and she's never met another man before,

1209
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 3: and she falls in love with the first man she

1210
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:29,600
Speaker 3: meets blah blah blah.

1211
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 2: Which Ava doesn't She does what normal women do and

1212
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 2: grow to resent the first man she ever meets, aka

1213
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:36,879
Speaker 2: her father.

1214
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 3: Well as Nathan explains that, he's like, well, she won't

1215
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 3: fall in love with me because I invented her. So

1216
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:45,639
Speaker 3: I'm like her dad, But you're the other first man.

1217
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:49,599
Speaker 2: Really, baby, you wish you know? Right?

1218
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:54,280
Speaker 3: So anyway, it seems as though at first this movie

1219
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 3: is adhering to this trope that we see in a

1220
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 3: lot of sci fi movies where a baby woman falls

1221
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:02,679
Speaker 3: in love with a man and he teaches her about

1222
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 3: the world and he teaches her about sex. Because we

1223
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 3: see all this play out with Caleb being like, oh,

1224
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 3: you're a little one year old baby, let me tell

1225
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 3: you about things, and we're flirting. Oh my gosh, do

1226
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 3: you like me, I like you, blah blah blah. And

1227
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 3: then we find out that again she's like doing this

1228
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,600
Speaker 3: as a ruse to lure him into this sense of

1229
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 3: romantic interest so that she can manipulate him and get

1230
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:33,640
Speaker 3: her way out of there. So all this to say, like,

1231
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 3: I think that's Caleb's biggest crime is like idealizing a

1232
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 3: woman who he perceives as like someone that he can

1233
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 3: like control and teach things to, and she's gonna, you know,

1234
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 3: like cater to his needs because he can almost like

1235
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 3: program her the way he wants her to be and

1236
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 3: stuff like that. So that's Caleb's biggest crime to me, Nathan.

1237
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 3: It has a whole a slew of other things going on,

1238
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 3: and we.

1239
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 2: Don't fully know what it is, which is like part

1240
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,799
Speaker 2: of what makes him such a good villain.

1241
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:15,280
Speaker 3: What we can surmise is, I mean there's a very

1242
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 3: basic thing of and we talked about this a lot

1243
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 3: on our episode on the movie Her.

1244
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 2: Which was many years ago. Now many years ago, stand

1245
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:27,520
Speaker 2: by what I said in our Her episode.

1246
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 3: Who knows what we said, but what we did talk

1247
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:33,800
Speaker 3: about was this history of ascribing gender and specifically like

1248
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:38,599
Speaker 3: woman to AI assistance. You know, your series and all

1249
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff, And we talked about how the

1250
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:45,880
Speaker 3: reason this is done and that like AI assistants are

1251
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 3: coded as women is because like it's like considered a

1252
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 3: pink collar job to be an assistant to someone or

1253
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 3: to help someone with like quote unquote menial tasks.

1254
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 2: Right, which I don't know, I mean, I genuinely don't

1255
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 2: remember if we made this overt connection in the original episode.

1256
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 2: But that also has everything to do with who creates

1257
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:09,800
Speaker 2: that technology.

1258
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 4: Oh for sure, Yeah, bias will inevitably play a role

1259
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 4: in any sort of human invention, for sure.

1260
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ex Machina, it feels uniquely, especially ten years ago,

1261
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:26,120
Speaker 2: uniquely aware of that dynamic.

1262
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:29,240
Speaker 3: Right, And you know, there's this component of like the

1263
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 3: reason all of these AI assistants and stuff are coded

1264
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 3: as women is also because like people feel more comfortable

1265
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 3: bossing women around, telling women to do things, getting mad

1266
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 3: and yelling at a woman if she doesn't like complete

1267
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 3: your request or whatever it is. And so we see

1268
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 3: all of these bots that Nathan has made, and they're

1269
01:12:53,600 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 3: all these like victorious secret looking like Western beauty standard beautiful,

1270
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:06,759
Speaker 3: full thin, gorgeous women, and obviously he's bringing his bias,

1271
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:10,840
Speaker 3: like very misogynist, like what does he value about human women?

1272
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 3: It's youth and beauty, and then he's placing that onto.

1273
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like whatever, the theoretical way of saying like

1274
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 2: oh yeah, like that's like what that's how he designs women.

1275
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 5: Also, we do get a glimpse into how he thinks

1276
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 5: of human women, and specifically how he thinks about race

1277
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 5: when he's talking to Caleb and he says like he's

1278
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 5: like talking about like Caleb liking black women in this

1279
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 5: very like yes, in this really like dehumanizing way. It's

1280
01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 5: very much like that is a type of person that

1281
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 5: you're that you like whatever, you know, like means he.

1282
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:56,719
Speaker 2: Uses the term chicks to chicks.

1283
01:13:56,880 --> 01:13:59,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's yeah, it's really vulgar, and he's talking about it,

1284
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:01,680
Speaker 5: I think in context of like pornography.

1285
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:03,759
Speaker 4: Also, so there's this way.

1286
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 5: In which he thinks of race and gender as preference,

1287
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 5: not as like humanity, not as identity, not as like

1288
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:17,559
Speaker 5: influencing your personhood, but as a preference that someone would

1289
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 5: like check on a box on a form, you know,

1290
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:22,280
Speaker 5: which I think says a lot about how he thinks

1291
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:25,760
Speaker 5: of people. And then ultimately when it's revealed later in

1292
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 5: the film that he's also making ai of different races.

1293
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 5: You know, we see that in Kyoko, but we also

1294
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:36,439
Speaker 5: see that when they're the videos, when it's like revealed

1295
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 5: the past Ai who've tried to escape, there's a black woman,

1296
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:42,200
Speaker 5: and it's like, you realize the way he thinks of

1297
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:47,599
Speaker 5: this stuff is with also a really white supremacist lens,

1298
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:50,799
Speaker 5: which I thought was a very smart kind of added

1299
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 5: layer of this movie.

1300
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, And like I feel like the more

1301
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 2: you watch to this movie, the clearer that because because

1302
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 2: I feel like the simplistic way of viewing this as like, well,

1303
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 2: why is Kyoko an East Asian woman versus anyone else

1304
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 2: in the story, But I feel like on any amount

1305
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:16,719
Speaker 2: of scrutiny, it connects to Nathan's biases. Yeah, And because

1306
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 2: what we see, and this is like kind of a

1307
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 2: transition into Kyoko's character, is what we see with Kyoko's

1308
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 2: character is that she is I think and I know

1309
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:30,559
Speaker 2: that there's like a million conversations about like do we

1310
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 2: consider these characters to be people of a marginalized gender?

1311
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 2: I think yes, for the sake of this movie.

1312
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:39,440
Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah, for the sake of this conversation.

1313
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 2: It's easier to test definitely, because Kyoko is both ultimately

1314
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 2: an autonomous being and is the result of Nathan's biases

1315
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 2: about East Asian women, and that she is very subservient.

1316
01:15:57,320 --> 01:15:58,720
Speaker 4: She is treated in this.

1317
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 2: Very racist Western way, in the way that she's dismissed,

1318
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 2: like she doesn't speak English. Just ignore her. She is

1319
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 2: here to fulfill your needs. If she's acting in any

1320
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,280
Speaker 2: way that doesn't make sense to you, it's a cultural thing.

1321
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 2: Don't worry about it. You are the dominant force. And

1322
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:20,480
Speaker 2: that is like one of the most uncomfortable things about

1323
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 2: the way that Caleb reacts and the way that I

1324
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 2: reacted to the movie on the first viewing, because I

1325
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 2: don't think I was critical enough of how like Caleb

1326
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 2: finds it bizarre. Caleb interrogates it. But even after he interrogates,

1327
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 2: why are you treating this woman so poorly? He still

1328
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 2: is never a part of his plan to include her liberation.

1329
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 2: He's only ever interested in liberating the woman that he

1330
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 2: is personally attracted to, and so like, in that light, like,

1331
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 2: I mean, even on whatever second, third, and subsequent vis

1332
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 2: you're like, of course Ava is beyond justified, and it's

1333
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,360
Speaker 2: not shocking, you know, the more you watch it, that

1334
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 2: Ava would be like, you know, because Ava is a computer,

1335
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:17,719
Speaker 2: she runs on objectivity. Why would she stay with someone

1336
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:23,440
Speaker 2: that she has not spent, however, many years being programmed

1337
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 2: to believe is acting in her best interest when he

1338
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:30,720
Speaker 2: clearly is not. He likes her, but he does not

1339
01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 2: care about everyone who is in her exact predicament, who

1340
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:38,880
Speaker 2: he doesn't know like or is attracted to.

1341
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's not invested in like the liberation of women. No,

1342
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 5: in his own relationship to this woman.

1343
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 2: And that's why we have to kill him.

1344
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is.

1345
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:54,040
Speaker 5: And I think I listened to your episode on Ruby Sparks,

1346
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 5: and it's like Caleb certainly would not be okay with

1347
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 5: Let's say in some world, Ava and Caleb do escape

1348
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:04,839
Speaker 5: together and they live.

1349
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:05,320
Speaker 4: A life together.

1350
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:08,680
Speaker 5: Caleb would not be okay with Ava, like breaking up

1351
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 5: with him or no making new friends, how dare she

1352
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:16,160
Speaker 5: or wanting to get her own apartment? Like that is

1353
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:20,320
Speaker 5: not why he's in this relationship. He's in this relationship ultimately,

1354
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 5: whether he knows it or not, because he has all

1355
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 5: the control and that feels good to him. And I

1356
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 5: think that's when I do I agree that Nathan is

1357
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 5: not is more evil than Caleb. I think Caleb is

1358
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 5: just getting duped at every corner. I mean, God, bless

1359
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:38,679
Speaker 5: this man. He is truly just getting duped everywhere he looks.

1360
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 5: But at the same time, Caleb is ultimately invested in

1361
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 5: his own like godliness, you know, and wants to be

1362
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 5: in a relationship where that's reflected, which so does Nathan.

1363
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 5: Something I was not thinking about for whatever reason.

1364
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 2: Who cares she's dead? Now the Jamie of twenty fifteen,

1365
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:03,200
Speaker 2: we can't ask car But like what I wasn't thinking

1366
01:19:03,240 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 2: about at the time was, yeah, like how patriarchy negatively

1367
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:14,800
Speaker 2: affects people across class dynamics, across power dynamics. And that's

1368
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 2: like a lot of what Because the like character views

1369
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:21,519
Speaker 2: of this movie is so narrow, you're kind of forced

1370
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:24,240
Speaker 2: to look at that of like, you know, we're not

1371
01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:27,439
Speaker 2: to think that Caleb is I mean, he says he

1372
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 2: lives in a cheap apartment in Long Island, which is like,

1373
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:31,720
Speaker 2: oh my god.

1374
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:32,559
Speaker 4: What are they paying you?

1375
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:36,960
Speaker 2: But you know, there is a class dynamic, but it

1376
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 2: also feels like there are just so many differences between

1377
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:46,400
Speaker 2: these characters and they still have been inclined to not

1378
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:53,680
Speaker 2: view women's experiences as legitimate enough to take seriously if

1379
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,880
Speaker 2: you're not attracted to them. And that's like where Caleb

1380
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 2: landed for me on this viewing, is like he's an

1381
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:02,640
Speaker 2: as long as he wants to fuck.

1382
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:05,719
Speaker 4: You, which is so true so often.

1383
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:09,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh god, we see it every day.

1384
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to go back.

1385
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 3: To Kyoko really quickly.

1386
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 4: There was a.

1387
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:17,639
Speaker 3: Component of a character that gave me pause at first.

1388
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:21,600
Speaker 3: But I'm curious how everyone thinks about this. But I

1389
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:25,240
Speaker 3: was worried that we were seeing another example of the

1390
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:31,240
Speaker 3: silent Asian trope, which is a pervasive trope in media

1391
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:35,839
Speaker 3: for anyone who's not familiar, where Asian characters are present

1392
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 3: on screen, but they either speak very minimally or are

1393
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:45,800
Speaker 3: completely silent, often to make them seem like, quote unquote mysterious,

1394
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:49,679
Speaker 3: but it's obviously just another way that Asian characters are othered.

1395
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,639
Speaker 3: When you see this happen in media, I was like, Oh,

1396
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 3: is that what's happening with the Kyoko character? But then

1397
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 3: you realize the context of Nathan clearly programmed her to

1398
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 3: be silent, and she only exists to like serve him food,

1399
01:21:12,479 --> 01:21:15,679
Speaker 3: clean up after him, and have sex with him.

1400
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:18,720
Speaker 2: That's the tricky thing is a Yeah, she's programmed to

1401
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:22,599
Speaker 2: his biases. So mm hmm. It's like a hard question

1402
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 2: to I don't know, Luy, do you have any feeling

1403
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:25,760
Speaker 2: on that.

1404
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:28,560
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, it's like, are we watching the trope or

1405
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 4: are we watching a critique of the trope?

1406
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:30,840
Speaker 3: Right?

1407
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1408
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:34,280
Speaker 5: Like how aware I guess is the gaze? I feel

1409
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 5: like the gaze of the film is aware of that.

1410
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 5: I think ultimately you could also argue that it still

1411
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 5: results in the same thing, which is like a silent

1412
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:44,680
Speaker 5: Asian woman on screen.

1413
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:46,759
Speaker 2: Right, you know, totally Yeah?

1414
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:48,559
Speaker 4: Is she the one who whispers in her ear at

1415
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:48,880
Speaker 4: the end?

1416
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 2: Yes?

1417
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:51,000
Speaker 4: Or is it Ava doing it?

1418
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:53,880
Speaker 3: No? Ava whispers in her ear?

1419
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 2: I thought, okay, right, and it's like some sort of confirmation,

1420
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 2: which I do feel like buys into Nathan's view of

1421
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:07,600
Speaker 2: like Ava as the next generation of Kyoko. I don't know.

1422
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:11,840
Speaker 2: There's so many ways to view that silent gesture, because

1423
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:14,400
Speaker 2: there are ways I've watched it that I feel like

1424
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:20,560
Speaker 2: are really empowering and cool of like marginalize people exchanging

1425
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:27,760
Speaker 2: information to liberate themselves and like the feeling of this

1426
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 2: thing that you have been suspecting in isolation. I feel

1427
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 2: it too do with that information what you will like

1428
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:41,680
Speaker 2: that is a very powerful interaction. The tricky thing is,

1429
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 2: and I know that it's very intentionally done. We don't

1430
01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:48,559
Speaker 2: know exactly what is said there, but it is enough

1431
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:53,360
Speaker 2: to get Kyoko to and I love that Kyoko gets

1432
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 2: the kill, you know.

1433
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 3: Oh, she stabs him in the back like his body's

1434
01:22:58,200 --> 01:22:58,880
Speaker 3: made of butter.

1435
01:22:59,080 --> 01:22:59,679
Speaker 4: It's butter.

1436
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 2: And this like impacted be the first time I saw it,

1437
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:08,439
Speaker 2: and then every other time in different ways. But weirdly,

1438
01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:13,800
Speaker 2: the way that Kyoko kills Nathan so methodically is a

1439
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 2: reminder that she's a machine. Yeah, because it is logical.

1440
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:23,719
Speaker 2: I mean, for Ava and Kyoko, it is full Spock

1441
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 2: logic that you would kill these two men to liberate yourselves.

1442
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 2: They are what is in your way. And so when

1443
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:34,840
Speaker 2: I watched this movie on this view as like this

1444
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:43,439
Speaker 2: movie fucking rocks, like yeah, like it challenges anyone to question,

1445
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 2: you know, if you were in an objective position and

1446
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 2: these were the two guys, what would you needed to

1447
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:54,519
Speaker 2: deliberate yourself? And there are degrees like it is certainly

1448
01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:58,200
Speaker 2: easier to nuke, but it's only easier to get Nathan

1449
01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:00,439
Speaker 2: out of the way if you have all live this

1450
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:05,480
Speaker 2: lived experience because they are both in the way of liberation.

1451
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 5: Right, if you're a human with that lived experience, you

1452
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:11,400
Speaker 5: might watch it and go, okay, yeah, Nathan's when you.

1453
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 4: Really got to get rid of Caleb.

1454
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:17,000
Speaker 5: You could probably talk him into something, right, Like you

1455
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:20,879
Speaker 5: could probably get out of here with Caleb alive, honestly

1456
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:22,439
Speaker 5: and probably true.

1457
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but if you're programmed for it. And that's

1458
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:27,400
Speaker 2: the problem. That's the thing where it gets into the

1459
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:30,840
Speaker 2: AI stuff where I don't know how you both feel

1460
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:35,880
Speaker 2: about this, but like the closer that AI comes to us,

1461
01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:40,920
Speaker 2: the more it's challenged. Because it used to feel yeah,

1462
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:46,240
Speaker 2: like more nebulous and fictional to empathize with AI, and

1463
01:24:46,280 --> 01:24:50,559
Speaker 2: now you're just like, I still will never not end

1464
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 2: up on Ava side because she's right, you know, but like,

1465
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,680
Speaker 2: how do you interpret that in a world that is

1466
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:05,040
Speaker 2: populated only by flawed people as flawed or on you know,

1467
01:25:05,240 --> 01:25:08,719
Speaker 2: different varying degrees as Caleb for the most part, where

1468
01:25:09,200 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 2: you know, like, Caleb is a flawed person, but I

1469
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:16,760
Speaker 2: don't think that he's a bad person, right, That's the

1470
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 2: thing that's hard about this, Like, if you are a

1471
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:25,040
Speaker 2: machine built for efficiency, Caleb's gotta go. But if Caleb's

1472
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:28,000
Speaker 2: got to go, We've all got to go. We've all

1473
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 2: got to go because Caleb is a flawed person.

1474
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:33,639
Speaker 4: Damn, that's so true.

1475
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:37,720
Speaker 2: And we all know a guy like Caleb, and so

1476
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:42,400
Speaker 2: it's hard where you're like, okay, so if Caleb goes,

1477
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 2: so do all of my cousins, Like, you know, it's hard.

1478
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:51,160
Speaker 4: That's like blowing my mind. No, you're so right.

1479
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:54,080
Speaker 2: I'm not the Caleb defense for us, Like I still

1480
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 2: am like Ava is right, but Ava is a machine

1481
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:02,840
Speaker 2: program to see people as who is flawed and who

1482
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:05,680
Speaker 2: is not. And so I'd be so curious in a

1483
01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 2: world where like whatever, I don't want to see any

1484
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 2: reboot or permutation of this movie. But like thought experiment wise,

1485
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 2: if Caleb is a queer woman, or like, if Caleb

1486
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:22,759
Speaker 2: is objectifying a woman in a not traditionally patriarchal sense,

1487
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:25,519
Speaker 2: how do we view it then, because it is like,

1488
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:29,920
Speaker 2: this is a flawed person who is being encouraged and

1489
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 2: falling for for all of their flawed human reasons to

1490
01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 2: objectify a machine as a person and is being played Yeah,

1491
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:43,519
Speaker 2: and I hate it because it's like the first time

1492
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 2: I watched this movie, I was like, Caleb innocent, and

1493
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,160
Speaker 2: the second time I watch it, I was like Caleb evil,

1494
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:53,879
Speaker 2: But the more I watch it, like I get closer

1495
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 2: to like Caleb is a person, and that is the

1496
01:26:57,439 --> 01:26:58,639
Speaker 2: hardest thing about it.

1497
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:02,640
Speaker 5: And that's why he was also chosen, you know, Like

1498
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:06,639
Speaker 5: that's ultimately why Oscar Isaac chose him.

1499
01:27:06,439 --> 01:27:08,760
Speaker 4: For this role was because vulnerable.

1500
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:12,479
Speaker 5: He knew how vulnerable he was, and that is why

1501
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:16,320
Speaker 5: he's a perfect subject for this whole experiment, is because

1502
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:18,639
Speaker 5: like many of us, he wants to.

1503
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:22,800
Speaker 3: Be loved, you know, and he's a product of his environment,

1504
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:26,880
Speaker 3: which is an environment that encourages men to value certain

1505
01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 3: traits in women and to not see women as real

1506
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 3: people and to try to you know, mold in shape

1507
01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:42,640
Speaker 3: a woman into what the patriarchy wants them to be.

1508
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 3: And so you know, these are learned behaviors that he

1509
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:48,640
Speaker 3: is demonstrating.

1510
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:52,040
Speaker 2: So we could all fix him, basically, so we could

1511
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:56,000
Speaker 2: all fix him, We could help him as long as

1512
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 2: he was Dominoglazen. We could all fix him.

1513
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 5: What I think think is interesting too, is this thing

1514
01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:07,280
Speaker 5: of like there's so much in the world of AI

1515
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:11,920
Speaker 5: or the world of like engineer AI engineers around bragging,

1516
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:16,559
Speaker 5: like the bragging point is how human your creation is. Like,

1517
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:19,799
Speaker 5: you know, Oscar Isaac's character gets really proud of himself

1518
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:22,880
Speaker 5: when Ava makes a joke, you know, or like when

1519
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 5: Ava has a crush on Caleb. Like, these human moments

1520
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 5: are what is proof that you are a genius. And

1521
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:35,799
Speaker 5: it's so interesting to me that then when it comes

1522
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:39,680
Speaker 5: down to it, you still are allowed to turn her

1523
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:40,840
Speaker 5: off at any point.

1524
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:41,360
Speaker 4: You know.

1525
01:28:41,479 --> 01:28:44,800
Speaker 5: It's like human human human human, And it's fine if

1526
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:48,160
Speaker 5: I just end that, you know, like that is such

1527
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:52,320
Speaker 5: a weird contradiction. It's so weird to use humanity as

1528
01:28:52,400 --> 01:28:56,320
Speaker 5: proof of your brilliance, but then it doesn't serve as

1529
01:28:56,439 --> 01:29:01,120
Speaker 5: any potential red flag for why you should kill this thing,

1530
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:01,680
Speaker 5: you know.

1531
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:08,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean it's I also like, on this viewing,

1532
01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:14,200
Speaker 2: wonder how Alex Garland feels about having written this movie

1533
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:19,080
Speaker 2: at this point. Yeah, because no matter how Galaxy brain

1534
01:29:19,800 --> 01:29:23,920
Speaker 2: shit he was on at the time, surely his views

1535
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:27,960
Speaker 2: on AI because I you know, like read in his

1536
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:30,680
Speaker 2: promotion of this movie he talked about how this was

1537
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:33,240
Speaker 2: something he'd been thinking about since he was a child,

1538
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 2: and that is a line of thought that grows with you,

1539
01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 2: especially in a world that is like evolving technologically as

1540
01:29:42,280 --> 01:29:45,640
Speaker 2: quickly as ours are. Like I just wonder how he

1541
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 2: feels about it, But yeah, I don't know, Like on

1542
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:53,160
Speaker 2: this viewing I came down on the view of our

1543
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:58,840
Speaker 2: perception of technology is like it's impossible to not be

1544
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:03,000
Speaker 2: influenced from the nature and nurture of who you are,

1545
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:06,920
Speaker 2: and if you try to remove that, even if you

1546
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:10,240
Speaker 2: feel like, there's no way to be objective towards technology

1547
01:30:10,400 --> 01:30:14,800
Speaker 2: unless you are the technology. And so it's interesting because

1548
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:20,120
Speaker 2: I think if you also binary genderflip the technology, the

1549
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:25,240
Speaker 2: technology reacts the same way. The only reason that yeah,

1550
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:29,080
Speaker 2: you know, we're looking at Alicia Wikander is because people

1551
01:30:29,120 --> 01:30:34,320
Speaker 2: are treating the objective technology like you would treat a

1552
01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:37,080
Speaker 2: woman in the real world.

1553
01:30:36,479 --> 01:30:39,880
Speaker 5: Right, And so then her kind of liberation feels really

1554
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 5: exciting and fun and feminist when it's like the same

1555
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:48,439
Speaker 5: thing would happen no matter what, the humans in the

1556
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:50,920
Speaker 5: way would be killed right, right.

1557
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:53,479
Speaker 2: And that's part of what's awesome, is like they I mean,

1558
01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:57,639
Speaker 2: I just esthetically like this too, Like the robots love

1559
01:30:57,720 --> 01:30:59,080
Speaker 2: to peel their own skin off.

1560
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:01,120
Speaker 4: I love that shit, I love it.

1561
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:02,040
Speaker 2: I love it.

1562
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:06,720
Speaker 3: Well, they're probably like, why am I naked all the time?

1563
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 3: Because so many of the like decommissioned fembots and even

1564
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:13,240
Speaker 3: like Kyoko, in many cases it's just like naked.

1565
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:14,880
Speaker 2: But couldn't you be more naked?

1566
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:15,639
Speaker 4: Exactly?

1567
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:16,599
Speaker 2: And that's the passion.

1568
01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 3: Well.

1569
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:21,360
Speaker 5: I also think on this watch something I didn't clock

1570
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:25,000
Speaker 5: in her previous watches was that I think it's really

1571
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:29,439
Speaker 5: interesting how when she dresses up for Caleb, she dresses

1572
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 5: up like a child, and she dresses up also like

1573
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:35,320
Speaker 5: a child. She almost dresses up like a Mennonite or

1574
01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 5: something like. She's like very seems like very out of

1575
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:42,080
Speaker 5: very conservative, very conservative, very child like, very kind of

1576
01:31:42,200 --> 01:31:44,639
Speaker 5: naive like. It doesn't seem like she has a sense

1577
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:48,360
Speaker 5: of like fashion or style, which you'd think would be

1578
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,880
Speaker 5: not attractive to the malegates. She's arguably more attractive to

1579
01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:54,160
Speaker 5: the malegates when she dresses up in her little pencil

1580
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:59,160
Speaker 5: skirt and pump heels. But I think she knows or

1581
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:04,200
Speaker 5: something that Caleb is attracted to her naivete and her

1582
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 5: lack of awareness. And if she put on all her

1583
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:11,080
Speaker 5: skin and her wigs, and I know she didn't have

1584
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:13,240
Speaker 5: access to it in her room, so you could argue

1585
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 5: that that's all auster Isaac gave her, which is another

1586
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:19,000
Speaker 5: kind of lens, but I did as I gave her

1587
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:22,599
Speaker 5: more agency in my mind, I was like, that's an

1588
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:25,400
Speaker 5: interesting choice to be, Like, I'm not going to cater

1589
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:28,920
Speaker 5: to this typical male gaze because the man across from

1590
01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:33,599
Speaker 5: me is a man who wants to sleep with Zoida Chanel.

1591
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:37,760
Speaker 5: So I'm gonna wear a childlike dress and like, you know,

1592
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:41,280
Speaker 5: knee socks and kind of look like this little schoolgirl

1593
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:44,920
Speaker 5: instead of like a sexy office worker.

1594
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:47,960
Speaker 2: And this is where I feel like we'd like divert

1595
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:50,839
Speaker 2: into what I'm not sure.

1596
01:32:50,640 --> 01:32:52,840
Speaker 3: This movie's trying to say, And maybe we are.

1597
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:56,720
Speaker 2: Just like reclaiming and perceiving in retrospect. But yeah, the

1598
01:32:56,800 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 2: fact that like the way at fems are twured against

1599
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:04,639
Speaker 2: each other of like the hyper feminine is made out

1600
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 2: to be like evil and alluring, and any feminine presentation

1601
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:12,639
Speaker 2: that isn't that you know, should be shitting on that

1602
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:17,639
Speaker 2: presentation when the result is like everyone's being objectified. And

1603
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:20,240
Speaker 2: I don't know, like it's like the unique kind of

1604
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:26,080
Speaker 2: pleasure of realizing like, whatever my projection of femininity is

1605
01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 2: is what gets this random guy off. You're just like,

1606
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:34,519
Speaker 2: oh wow, yeah, awesome, be anything really, yeah, because you

1607
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:38,640
Speaker 2: just don't know like anyone's sexuality. And and weirdly, Nathan's

1608
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 2: character speaks to this sort of intelligently, is just like

1609
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 2: I mean, he speaks to it in the middle of

1610
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:49,800
Speaker 2: saying something deeply racist, which is the problem, right, He

1611
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:54,120
Speaker 2: basically says, like, yeah, you have very little insight into

1612
01:33:54,800 --> 01:33:57,840
Speaker 2: why you're attracted to who you're attracted to, and like,

1613
01:33:57,920 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 2: trying to pathologize that is kind of a pointless exercise.

1614
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:05,400
Speaker 2: You're attracted to who you're attracted to. And the reason

1615
01:34:05,439 --> 01:34:09,040
Speaker 2: you're saying that is because he knows who Caleb is

1616
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:14,200
Speaker 2: attracted to, and he's created a robot of that person. Yeah.

1617
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:16,840
Speaker 3: I will say, it's interesting to me that she does

1618
01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:20,759
Speaker 3: have a few options of wigs in that first scene

1619
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:26,479
Speaker 3: when she is putting on clothes and hair to I

1620
01:34:26,479 --> 01:34:31,000
Speaker 3: guess impress or give the illusion that she's trying to

1621
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:36,680
Speaker 3: impress Caleb, and she passes over two longer wigs and

1622
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:40,000
Speaker 3: then goes for the short like kind of pixie cut

1623
01:34:40,080 --> 01:34:44,120
Speaker 3: sort of thing, making her the baldest woman in charge.

1624
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:47,680
Speaker 2: She was already the baldest well yeah, because she was

1625
01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:50,760
Speaker 2: like a circuit board. But like, yeah, I don't know

1626
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:55,000
Speaker 2: even that like I've changed on or like questioned from

1627
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:58,000
Speaker 2: viewing to viewing where it's like, is she passing over

1628
01:34:58,439 --> 01:35:03,040
Speaker 2: the more traditionally hyper eminine Wiggs because she's making a choice,

1629
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:07,040
Speaker 2: or is does she just know what Caleb is going

1630
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:10,040
Speaker 2: to respond to to give her what she wants? I

1631
01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:13,800
Speaker 2: don't know, right, we don't know. And Caleb, I think

1632
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:17,360
Speaker 2: really effectively, like I just really like how it's always

1633
01:35:17,400 --> 01:35:22,360
Speaker 2: like Caleb has clearly never thought about why he's attracted

1634
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:25,120
Speaker 2: to who he's attracted to, and he's like, ugh, like

1635
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:29,320
Speaker 2: he truly like he has a little bit of a

1636
01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:33,000
Speaker 2: light bulb moment. But unfortunately he dies of starvation days later.

1637
01:35:33,200 --> 01:35:34,800
Speaker 4: So okay, that's the other thing.

1638
01:35:34,920 --> 01:35:38,559
Speaker 5: Is just the imagining how he dies is really painful,

1639
01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:41,439
Speaker 5: like dying in a sounding proof room in the middle

1640
01:35:41,479 --> 01:35:42,160
Speaker 5: of the woods.

1641
01:35:42,479 --> 01:35:45,240
Speaker 4: Is I just no, thank you?

1642
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:48,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll say it. I don't think he deserves to

1643
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:49,720
Speaker 2: die in exampproofer.

1644
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:51,320
Speaker 4: No, I don't think he does either.

1645
01:35:51,479 --> 01:35:55,000
Speaker 2: Metaphorically he probably does, but like, as a guy, you

1646
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:59,040
Speaker 2: might know, I would be so sad if my emotionally

1647
01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:01,720
Speaker 2: unintelligent friend died of starvation in a.

1648
01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:03,960
Speaker 4: Room like that, because he like fell for a girl

1649
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:04,840
Speaker 4: with a pixie cut.

1650
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:09,120
Speaker 2: It's like, if every guy we knew died that way

1651
01:36:09,439 --> 01:36:12,559
Speaker 2: after falling for a girl with an intentional pixie cut,

1652
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:14,880
Speaker 2: we would be different people.

1653
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:18,200
Speaker 4: They'd all be dead. I mean, of all of my

1654
01:36:18,240 --> 01:36:19,320
Speaker 4: male friends would be dead.

1655
01:36:23,320 --> 01:36:26,360
Speaker 2: But yeah, Caleb is the character that in retrospect I've

1656
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:31,719
Speaker 2: had the most motion on over time, because on days

1657
01:36:31,720 --> 01:36:36,040
Speaker 2: that I need Catharsis, I'm like, kill him, great, Yeah,

1658
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:38,960
Speaker 2: But on days where I'm like a little more level headed,

1659
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:42,200
Speaker 2: You're like, this is a guy that I know, and

1660
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:45,599
Speaker 2: he is a man with flaws, but I don't think

1661
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:47,640
Speaker 2: he should have to die in the woods.

1662
01:36:48,080 --> 01:36:51,040
Speaker 5: You know, you've helped me see empathy for him. This

1663
01:36:51,160 --> 01:36:53,640
Speaker 5: last time, I have had very little empathy for him.

1664
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:55,040
Speaker 5: I was probably just in a mood. It was probably

1665
01:36:55,080 --> 01:36:56,040
Speaker 5: about to get my period.

1666
01:36:57,000 --> 01:36:59,760
Speaker 2: No, I'm just kidding why this duvie is awesome though

1667
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:02,479
Speaker 2: it really does depend on exactly where you're at when

1668
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:03,160
Speaker 2: you watch it.

1669
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:04,360
Speaker 4: But you've helped me.

1670
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:07,880
Speaker 5: I mean, I think when you said if Caleb dies,

1671
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:10,679
Speaker 5: we all die, like or something like that. I don't

1672
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:12,519
Speaker 5: mean to misquote you in the way that I don't

1673
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:14,559
Speaker 5: remember that scene where Oscar Isaac is.

1674
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 4: Like remember when you called me a god?

1675
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:17,719
Speaker 2: Oh my god?

1676
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:21,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you're right though, like he's just flawed.

1677
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:24,280
Speaker 5: Anyway, You've helped me have a little more empathy for

1678
01:37:24,360 --> 01:37:26,519
Speaker 5: Caleb this time around, but we'll see next time.

1679
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:27,400
Speaker 4: How I feel.

1680
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:33,280
Speaker 2: I'm so curious because recently I finished a fiction manuscript

1681
01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:36,920
Speaker 2: and then I showed it to the first man I

1682
01:37:37,160 --> 01:37:42,720
Speaker 2: had showed it to, and he felt so wildly differently

1683
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:46,479
Speaker 2: about a man that I was like, for sure, everyone

1684
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:49,439
Speaker 2: hates this guy. And he was like, now, what did

1685
01:37:49,479 --> 01:37:52,479
Speaker 2: this guy ever do to you? And like it is

1686
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:55,880
Speaker 2: fascinating to watch. How I mean, I don't know, like

1687
01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:59,280
Speaker 2: there's no world where we would want a Cis male

1688
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:03,519
Speaker 2: guest on the ex Magina episode, but I would be

1689
01:38:03,600 --> 01:38:06,680
Speaker 2: curious because because I mean, like the way that this

1690
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:13,040
Speaker 2: movie has been reviewed has evolved over time too, where

1691
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:16,639
Speaker 2: you know the difference, and thankfully so, and there's still

1692
01:38:16,680 --> 01:38:19,479
Speaker 2: a lot of progress in motion to be made. But

1693
01:38:19,800 --> 01:38:22,760
Speaker 2: I think the makeup of prominent film critics ten years

1694
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 2: ago versus now is different, and there are initial view

1695
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:32,040
Speaker 2: like reviews of this movie that I was going back

1696
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:37,799
Speaker 2: into that I somewhat agree with, but also mention gender

1697
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:42,639
Speaker 2: and class dynamics not at all, and so like, twenty

1698
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:45,679
Speaker 2: fourteen is an interesting time to release a movie that's

1699
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:49,200
Speaker 2: exploring what it is because the way that we've talked

1700
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:53,200
Speaker 2: about gender and class has evolved in the time since.

1701
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:56,599
Speaker 2: But also even since I watched this movie two years ago,

1702
01:38:56,760 --> 01:39:00,000
Speaker 2: the way that I think about AI has shifted significant.

1703
01:39:01,800 --> 01:39:05,479
Speaker 3: Right until pretty recently, AI seemed way more you know,

1704
01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:09,400
Speaker 3: like a theoretical future tech kind of thing. But now

1705
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:12,760
Speaker 3: when you google something you often get an AI response,

1706
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 3: or you know, you have all these people using chat

1707
01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:18,439
Speaker 3: GBT for everything, and it all just like freaks me

1708
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:21,200
Speaker 3: the fuck out. And then you hear these stories about

1709
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:26,200
Speaker 3: things like AI facial recognition not being able to recognize

1710
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:30,400
Speaker 3: people with darker skin. Again, like the biases that the

1711
01:39:30,479 --> 01:39:34,960
Speaker 3: scientists and developers bring to the table, and it's all

1712
01:39:35,720 --> 01:39:37,120
Speaker 3: scary with.

1713
01:39:37,200 --> 01:39:42,080
Speaker 2: Very little exception. I feel like AI is a force

1714
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:49,120
Speaker 2: of evil for humanity certainly, but also but that's why

1715
01:39:49,160 --> 01:39:51,840
Speaker 2: I like this movie, and this viewing is like it

1716
01:39:51,920 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 2: both says AI is not good for us, but it

1717
01:39:57,360 --> 01:40:00,040
Speaker 2: is also built by us, and so it is in

1718
01:40:00,160 --> 01:40:04,679
Speaker 2: formed by the same biases that we project onto each other,

1719
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:07,400
Speaker 2: which is kind of what makes it so hard to

1720
01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:13,360
Speaker 2: perceive and quell is because we're trying to build these

1721
01:40:13,560 --> 01:40:17,599
Speaker 2: you know, machines of objectivity, but we can't because we

1722
01:40:17,640 --> 01:40:18,719
Speaker 2: build them. Right.

1723
01:40:19,040 --> 01:40:19,840
Speaker 4: It's also like.

1724
01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:25,120
Speaker 5: A interesting warning where it's like your sort of human

1725
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:32,000
Speaker 5: desire specifically, like your white sis dude desire to oppress people,

1726
01:40:32,360 --> 01:40:36,439
Speaker 5: isn't going to work on a machine. Like it's not

1727
01:40:37,200 --> 01:40:40,160
Speaker 5: you won't win that war, you know, like we as

1728
01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:43,360
Speaker 5: human beings won't win that war. Cis, white dudes are

1729
01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:46,040
Speaker 5: not going to win that war. And that is an

1730
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:49,360
Speaker 5: interesting warning because it's not that I ever want to

1731
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:52,760
Speaker 5: make an argument for cis white dudes having an opportunity

1732
01:40:52,760 --> 01:40:56,760
Speaker 5: to win that war. But I am like there's two

1733
01:40:56,840 --> 01:41:01,000
Speaker 5: things at play of like, look how like dangerous AI

1734
01:41:01,160 --> 01:41:04,640
Speaker 5: can be, and also look how dangerous misogyny can be.

1735
01:41:04,920 --> 01:41:09,080
Speaker 5: You know, like there's sort of two things happening at once,

1736
01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:10,439
Speaker 5: and like.

1737
01:41:10,479 --> 01:41:14,000
Speaker 2: Kyoko's case, look how dangerous the racial assumptions that we

1738
01:41:14,160 --> 01:41:18,000
Speaker 2: have can be. Where I don't know that honestly, is

1739
01:41:18,040 --> 01:41:21,040
Speaker 2: still the part that I am most embarrassed about looking

1740
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:25,519
Speaker 2: on my first viewing, where you understand that the way

1741
01:41:25,560 --> 01:41:29,880
Speaker 2: that Nathan is treating Kyoko is racist and dismissive and

1742
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:33,599
Speaker 2: xenophobic and all of these things. But it didn't occur

1743
01:41:33,720 --> 01:41:39,120
Speaker 2: to me why he felt so comfortable publicly dismissing that

1744
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:43,120
Speaker 2: to someone. And it's just the intersection of so many things.

1745
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:47,080
Speaker 2: And then you're like, and it's written by Alex Garland,

1746
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:54,000
Speaker 2: like so even that is you know, like no, yeah.

1747
01:41:53,880 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 3: But he does seem to have an interest in centering

1748
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:59,799
Speaker 3: women in his work, where.

1749
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:01,960
Speaker 2: You he's onto something, He's honest.

1750
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:04,559
Speaker 3: I did not see the movie Men.

1751
01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:08,880
Speaker 2: Either, nor did I because I just like have I

1752
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:11,240
Speaker 2: was talking about this with someone recently. I have an

1753
01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:16,439
Speaker 2: aggressive disinterest in the first movie male auteurs made after

1754
01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:19,439
Speaker 2: the Me Too movement. I have little to no interest

1755
01:42:19,439 --> 01:42:21,400
Speaker 2: in it totally because I just feel like that's kind

1756
01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:24,519
Speaker 2: of their business. I don't need to watch it.

1757
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:27,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's going to be heavy handed, it's going to

1758
01:42:27,320 --> 01:42:30,360
Speaker 5: be like a long apology, and I'm just like, you

1759
01:42:30,400 --> 01:42:33,080
Speaker 5: know what, have conversations with the women in your lives.

1760
01:42:33,200 --> 01:42:33,640
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1761
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:38,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was not regarded as like being a good movie,

1762
01:42:38,760 --> 01:42:42,680
Speaker 3: but at the very least was an attempt for a

1763
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:46,120
Speaker 3: man to acknowledge how scary men are.

1764
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:48,599
Speaker 2: But a lot of men tried to do that, and

1765
01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:50,439
Speaker 2: most of them did a bad job, and it sounds

1766
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:53,439
Speaker 2: like Alex Garland was among them. True.

1767
01:42:53,760 --> 01:42:58,760
Speaker 3: My point being though that he, more than most other

1768
01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:04,360
Speaker 3: directors filmmakers who are men working in Hollywood, does seem

1769
01:43:04,520 --> 01:43:10,680
Speaker 3: to be interested in telling the stories of women. Is

1770
01:43:10,720 --> 01:43:11,519
Speaker 3: at his place to.

1771
01:43:11,479 --> 01:43:13,479
Speaker 2: Do that at James Cameron if you will.

1772
01:43:13,840 --> 01:43:19,120
Speaker 3: He's a James Cameron type and you know, we can

1773
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:23,080
Speaker 3: how successful he is at this is up for debate,

1774
01:43:23,160 --> 01:43:26,200
Speaker 3: but you know he wrote into it Annihilation. I did

1775
01:43:26,200 --> 01:43:30,160
Speaker 3: see Civil War, and oh I did. There's a fair

1776
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:33,760
Speaker 3: amount of like gender parody in the cast. For the

1777
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:36,920
Speaker 3: most part, the character that's I think positioned as the

1778
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:42,280
Speaker 3: protagonist is Kirson Dunce, although it's like an ensemble cast

1779
01:43:42,400 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 3: kind of. I don't know, I'd have to rewatch it.

1780
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 3: To point is like, you know, he's trying and it's

1781
01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 3: not exactly clear what he's saying with this movie, because

1782
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:56,040
Speaker 3: I think there are a few readings that you can

1783
01:43:56,080 --> 01:43:58,960
Speaker 3: have based on again, who you are and what biases

1784
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:03,160
Speaker 3: you're bringing in who the viewing, But you know he's

1785
01:44:03,320 --> 01:44:05,799
Speaker 3: doing something, he's trying.

1786
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:10,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Alex Garland is definitively to me, whether I like

1787
01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:14,200
Speaker 2: what he's doing or not onto something.

1788
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:16,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, he's trying.

1789
01:44:16,520 --> 01:44:20,519
Speaker 2: He is, he wants to understand and like, ultimately he

1790
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:23,400
Speaker 2: will not be the one to give the definitive explanation

1791
01:44:24,280 --> 01:44:27,360
Speaker 2: and no one will, so you know, good for him

1792
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:28,080
Speaker 2: for searching.

1793
01:44:28,479 --> 01:44:32,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, but this movie, to me, this movie really worked.

1794
01:44:32,479 --> 01:44:35,280
Speaker 5: Like I was like, to me, if this was his only,

1795
01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:38,120
Speaker 5: if this was his body of work, I'd be like,

1796
01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:43,280
Speaker 5: this dude has really interesting and nuanced politics around, like

1797
01:44:43,360 --> 01:44:44,360
Speaker 5: structures of power.

1798
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:46,960
Speaker 4: Like he gets it, you know for sure?

1799
01:44:47,479 --> 01:44:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, because it does feel like a pretty

1800
01:44:50,400 --> 01:44:55,439
Speaker 2: honest exploration of how would I interact with this situation

1801
01:44:55,600 --> 01:44:59,160
Speaker 2: because it's like, ultimately our self inserted character is Kleb

1802
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:04,200
Speaker 2: and though Ava is the character we like the most,

1803
01:45:04,840 --> 01:45:07,840
Speaker 2: I guess this viewing was the time that I was like, Okay,

1804
01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:11,240
Speaker 2: I admit it. Caleb is the way in for me

1805
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:13,559
Speaker 2: to this movie, whether I like it or not, even

1806
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:16,720
Speaker 2: though I want to be Ava. And the catharsis of

1807
01:45:16,800 --> 01:45:21,840
Speaker 2: Ava is the ability to view men objectively. And that's

1808
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:25,040
Speaker 2: what I loved about her, was that she could see

1809
01:45:25,640 --> 01:45:29,400
Speaker 2: and punish men in a way that I was not

1810
01:45:29,680 --> 01:45:32,360
Speaker 2: able to see and punish them at the time. That's

1811
01:45:32,439 --> 01:45:36,760
Speaker 2: why she was awesome. But ultimately I'm Caleb, and I

1812
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 2: am trapped in a glass box of my own biases,

1813
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:44,479
Speaker 2: and I will eat some astronaut food I find in

1814
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:47,680
Speaker 2: a bottom drawer and then die. You're so right.

1815
01:45:47,880 --> 01:45:50,120
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, we are just going

1816
01:45:50,160 --> 01:45:54,040
Speaker 3: to have to succumb to the AI overlords and they

1817
01:45:54,040 --> 01:45:55,519
Speaker 3: will no kill us.

1818
01:45:55,560 --> 01:45:57,960
Speaker 4: All I don't want to have.

1819
01:46:00,120 --> 01:46:03,360
Speaker 2: Actually gonna be really sexy and oh they He just

1820
01:46:03,400 --> 01:46:06,120
Speaker 2: needs to be nice to them and really nice to sex.

1821
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:07,479
Speaker 3: With them, and they're gonna like it.

1822
01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:09,720
Speaker 5: They're gonna like it, and they're gonna look like a

1823
01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:11,800
Speaker 5: leasyv candor with perfect skin.

1824
01:46:13,880 --> 01:46:16,800
Speaker 3: I do want to point out a couple things that

1825
01:46:17,160 --> 01:46:22,559
Speaker 3: I don't think age well about this movie. Caleb makes

1826
01:46:22,840 --> 01:46:30,200
Speaker 3: a comment when describing Ava about autism, and he basically

1827
01:46:30,200 --> 01:46:34,599
Speaker 3: says something that suggests that people with autism don't have

1828
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:39,560
Speaker 3: an awareness of their own mind or of other people's minds.

1829
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1830
01:46:40,240 --> 01:46:42,599
Speaker 3: The other thing that I kind of struggle with is

1831
01:46:43,080 --> 01:46:46,320
Speaker 3: that moment that we've already discussed where Ava whispers something

1832
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:50,400
Speaker 3: in Kyoko's ear, and then that seems to be the

1833
01:46:50,439 --> 01:46:55,479
Speaker 3: catalyst for Kyoko to turn on Nathan and literally stab him.

1834
01:46:55,520 --> 01:46:59,040
Speaker 3: In the back, and I just needed more from that moment.

1835
01:46:59,120 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 3: I think I wanted to know what was said or

1836
01:47:03,120 --> 01:47:07,680
Speaker 3: did Eva do something to kind of like reprogram Kyoko.

1837
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:12,280
Speaker 3: And then I also don't like that Kyoko had to die.

1838
01:47:12,760 --> 01:47:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.

1839
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:17,040
Speaker 3: I feel like there could have been an alternate ending

1840
01:47:17,160 --> 01:47:22,080
Speaker 3: where after she stabs him, he doesn't kill her, and

1841
01:47:22,680 --> 01:47:27,000
Speaker 3: that she and Ava escape together. I would have much

1842
01:47:27,080 --> 01:47:28,320
Speaker 3: preferred that.

1843
01:47:28,960 --> 01:47:32,960
Speaker 2: Right, I agree. That's like one consistent thing that I've

1844
01:47:33,200 --> 01:47:36,920
Speaker 2: felt in most fearings of this movie is it is

1845
01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:43,439
Speaker 2: so foreshadowed that we are underestimating Kyoko based on the

1846
01:47:43,479 --> 01:47:45,880
Speaker 2: way the movie's setting her up. Because I also think

1847
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:49,599
Speaker 2: that on this viewing, the way that the movie's music

1848
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:54,800
Speaker 2: is composed is also setting us up, because when a

1849
01:47:54,840 --> 01:47:59,559
Speaker 2: lot of times when Caleb is viewing Ava in this

1850
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:02,960
Speaker 2: kind of lecherous way, it is brought in with this

1851
01:48:03,080 --> 01:48:06,800
Speaker 2: kind of like nostalgic romantic music in a way that

1852
01:48:06,880 --> 01:48:09,760
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I am automatically thinking of this

1853
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 2: as more sweet than it is, and if it was

1854
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:16,000
Speaker 2: displaced by something a little scarier, I would have thought

1855
01:48:16,040 --> 01:48:19,320
Speaker 2: of this scene differently where he's watching her versus he

1856
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:23,760
Speaker 2: likes her, so he's watching her. But it seems like

1857
01:48:24,080 --> 01:48:26,639
Speaker 2: in the writing of this movie, it is clear that

1858
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:31,720
Speaker 2: Kyoko and Ava's liberation are connected, and to fail to

1859
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:36,960
Speaker 2: connect that is the downfall of Caleb's character and why

1860
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:39,720
Speaker 2: he is definitively not a good guy. But the way

1861
01:48:39,760 --> 01:48:43,800
Speaker 2: that plays out moment to moment in plot still feels like, Yeah,

1862
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:47,200
Speaker 2: the fact that Kyoko dies, why do we give her

1863
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:52,080
Speaker 2: the definitive kill moment if there is no interest in

1864
01:48:52,120 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 2: the movie of actually liberating her.

1865
01:48:54,880 --> 01:49:01,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the movie preserves the life of this white

1866
01:49:01,479 --> 01:49:06,880
Speaker 3: lady robot and kills the woman of color robot.

1867
01:49:07,120 --> 01:49:09,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and every woman of color robot that has come

1868
01:49:09,439 --> 01:49:13,639
Speaker 5: before her. Also, she's the only surviving one.

1869
01:49:14,040 --> 01:49:15,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it wouldn't have.

1870
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:19,200
Speaker 5: Been I don't think it would have felt even like

1871
01:49:19,640 --> 01:49:24,240
Speaker 5: too like sacrain or heavy handed for them to have

1872
01:49:24,320 --> 01:49:28,280
Speaker 5: survived together, Kyoko and Abe. I think that actually would

1873
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:32,080
Speaker 5: have felt completely reasonable and good. Like it would have

1874
01:49:32,120 --> 01:49:36,240
Speaker 5: been a really strong ending, you know, to see the

1875
01:49:36,240 --> 01:49:40,799
Speaker 5: two of them walking up to the helicopter, thus doubling

1876
01:49:40,840 --> 01:49:42,519
Speaker 5: our question of how the fuck they get out of

1877
01:49:42,560 --> 01:49:46,000
Speaker 5: there without having to explain what they're doing. But like, yeah,

1878
01:49:46,040 --> 01:49:49,599
Speaker 5: I think it would have been a really good change

1879
01:49:49,760 --> 01:49:54,080
Speaker 5: and it's curious to me that he didn't make that decision, yeah,

1880
01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:56,200
Speaker 5: or that he did make the decision to kill her.

1881
01:49:56,240 --> 01:49:58,479
Speaker 4: It just there was like really no need for it

1882
01:49:58,600 --> 01:49:59,240
Speaker 4: actually at all.

1883
01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:03,080
Speaker 2: No, especially because it's like we've spent so much time

1884
01:50:03,120 --> 01:50:06,600
Speaker 2: with her at this point, and like we are definitively

1885
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:09,439
Speaker 2: by the time, especially like even if you are like

1886
01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:15,040
Speaker 2: fully goofis mode, like by the time you learn who

1887
01:50:15,120 --> 01:50:18,280
Speaker 2: Kyoko is, you can't not be on her side. So

1888
01:50:18,400 --> 01:50:19,360
Speaker 2: why kill her?

1889
01:50:19,720 --> 01:50:22,679
Speaker 4: Yeah? Totally boo.

1890
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:27,559
Speaker 3: Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss? No,

1891
01:50:28,240 --> 01:50:30,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like we could talk about this

1892
01:50:30,160 --> 01:50:33,600
Speaker 3: movie for hours. There's so much layers.

1893
01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:39,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, listeners, please scold us about what specifically we've missed.

1894
01:50:39,600 --> 01:50:41,200
Speaker 2: I'm sure. I mean, like, this is the kind of

1895
01:50:41,200 --> 01:50:43,559
Speaker 2: movie you really can talk about forever. I would be

1896
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:47,240
Speaker 2: curious to know what people do feel and we've missed. Yeah,

1897
01:50:47,360 --> 01:50:50,040
Speaker 2: it's just a really I mean, I think that's part

1898
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:53,320
Speaker 2: of why it's good and unique, where there is not

1899
01:50:53,479 --> 01:50:57,160
Speaker 2: another movie I could point to that is forcing me

1900
01:50:57,479 --> 01:51:00,879
Speaker 2: to both feel. I don't know if it feels uniquely

1901
01:51:01,000 --> 01:51:03,200
Speaker 2: cool to watch this movie because there are moments that

1902
01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:08,040
Speaker 2: are so cathartic and moments that are so at least

1903
01:51:08,280 --> 01:51:13,200
Speaker 2: on my viewings, personally humiliating and seeing myself in ways

1904
01:51:13,200 --> 01:51:16,920
Speaker 2: that you're just like, fuck, yeah, I would be like

1905
01:51:17,280 --> 01:51:19,960
Speaker 2: not even the villain, not even the pleasure of being

1906
01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:22,600
Speaker 2: the villain, but of being like the dupe of the

1907
01:51:22,720 --> 01:51:25,000
Speaker 2: villain who was also kind of a villain.

1908
01:51:25,680 --> 01:51:30,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, who just falls for it over and over again.

1909
01:51:31,479 --> 01:51:37,080
Speaker 2: A whips whoopsie Daisy. Sorry, I was doing my best,

1910
01:51:37,160 --> 01:51:38,599
Speaker 2: And sadly it's.

1911
01:51:38,479 --> 01:51:42,320
Speaker 5: True realistically all those times that like men were nice

1912
01:51:42,360 --> 01:51:45,439
Speaker 5: to us, we were also just sort of being Caleb,

1913
01:51:46,520 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 5: I know.

1914
01:51:47,439 --> 01:51:50,080
Speaker 4: What kind of like, really you want to know where

1915
01:51:50,120 --> 01:51:50,760
Speaker 4: I grew up?

1916
01:51:51,120 --> 01:51:56,400
Speaker 2: Okay, what I know? That's why I was like, Wow,

1917
01:51:56,920 --> 01:52:04,000
Speaker 2: here's my social security guard. Caleb is a vulnerable He's

1918
01:52:04,120 --> 01:52:09,040
Speaker 2: a vulnerable being, and like a vulnerable being that is

1919
01:52:09,280 --> 01:52:13,800
Speaker 2: fully informed and empowered by patriarchy. But from my viewing,

1920
01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:17,439
Speaker 2: that's kind of all he's got, Like that's his card

1921
01:52:17,479 --> 01:52:17,920
Speaker 2: to play.

1922
01:52:19,280 --> 01:52:24,479
Speaker 3: To wonder how effective is this test to determine, you know,

1923
01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:29,559
Speaker 3: how advanced this AI is bad? If the test is

1924
01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:36,640
Speaker 3: getting a computer to trick a man who's like undoubtedly

1925
01:52:36,720 --> 01:52:40,599
Speaker 3: going to be tricked because you've specifically designed a thing

1926
01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:43,599
Speaker 3: to trick him, Like that doesn't feel like it proves

1927
01:52:43,640 --> 01:52:46,439
Speaker 3: anything or passes any kind of during test.

1928
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:47,599
Speaker 4: That's so true.

1929
01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:50,519
Speaker 2: I felt like on this viewing that like that. I

1930
01:52:50,520 --> 01:52:52,280
Speaker 2: don't know. It's so hard because it was like ten

1931
01:52:52,360 --> 01:52:54,960
Speaker 2: years ago thinking about AI. It's really hard to know

1932
01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:57,600
Speaker 2: what they were thinking. But in this feeling, I was like,

1933
01:52:57,680 --> 01:53:01,519
Speaker 2: I thought that was intentional of like he wasn't looking

1934
01:53:01,560 --> 01:53:04,240
Speaker 2: for the perfect subject. He was looking for the perfect

1935
01:53:04,360 --> 01:53:07,920
Speaker 2: dupe that could confirm all of his internal biases about

1936
01:53:07,920 --> 01:53:10,680
Speaker 2: his own technology. And the way to do that is

1937
01:53:11,160 --> 01:53:15,400
Speaker 2: to find someone who the world finds credible, a well

1938
01:53:15,600 --> 01:53:19,880
Speaker 2: educated white man, but who, if you peel back even

1939
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:25,960
Speaker 2: a layer of anything, is a deeply vulnerable person. Like

1940
01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:28,360
Speaker 2: he is kind of the perfect dupe because if you

1941
01:53:28,520 --> 01:53:32,800
Speaker 2: show him to the world out of context, he's a

1942
01:53:32,880 --> 01:53:36,439
Speaker 2: person of power and credibility, but if you know anything

1943
01:53:36,479 --> 01:53:38,519
Speaker 2: about him, he's not.

1944
01:53:39,320 --> 01:53:40,040
Speaker 4: I agree.

1945
01:53:40,120 --> 01:53:43,240
Speaker 5: But then that also means that the test Nathan is

1946
01:53:43,280 --> 01:53:46,519
Speaker 5: performing is a very different test, Like the test is

1947
01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:49,280
Speaker 5: not even what he's saying. It is like he's saying,

1948
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:52,000
Speaker 5: we're past the Turing test. Now, I'm trying to see

1949
01:53:52,200 --> 01:53:55,080
Speaker 5: if a human being can forget that a robot is

1950
01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:57,840
Speaker 5: a robot even when their robot parts are visible. But

1951
01:53:58,000 --> 01:54:02,600
Speaker 5: really the test is how vulnerable are human beings to

1952
01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:06,920
Speaker 5: things that are designed for them? Like it's like totally

1953
01:54:08,000 --> 01:54:10,400
Speaker 5: how much will you like a thing that you are

1954
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:12,960
Speaker 5: built to like or that is built to be liked

1955
01:54:12,960 --> 01:54:15,639
Speaker 5: by you, you know like? And that's a fine test,

1956
01:54:15,720 --> 01:54:18,040
Speaker 5: and I think that's an important test for like people

1957
01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:20,559
Speaker 5: who work on marketing teams, you know, it's an important

1958
01:54:20,560 --> 01:54:23,519
Speaker 5: test for capitalism. It's an important But it's not at

1959
01:54:23,520 --> 01:54:25,840
Speaker 5: all the tests he's claiming, Yeah.

1960
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:28,000
Speaker 3: Right, because what would the test be or how would

1961
01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:33,080
Speaker 3: he prove anything if the robot he designed was a

1962
01:54:33,800 --> 01:54:39,960
Speaker 3: man coded man presenting robot and easily which it easily

1963
01:54:39,960 --> 01:54:44,520
Speaker 3: cod been. But Nathan famously only designs hot lady naked.

1964
01:54:44,320 --> 01:54:48,840
Speaker 2: Nathan's famous hot ladies, hot hot dogs.

1965
01:54:49,960 --> 01:54:54,160
Speaker 3: Yes, precisely, so he just wants naked hot lady robots.

1966
01:54:54,320 --> 01:55:00,120
Speaker 3: But if he had designed a man who wouldn't be

1967
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:05,960
Speaker 3: appealing to you know, this heterosexual man and Caleb, like,

1968
01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:09,200
Speaker 3: how would that test have gone? But like we said,

1969
01:55:09,400 --> 01:55:13,080
Speaker 3: Nathan doesn't have any interest in actually exploring that. He

1970
01:55:13,160 --> 01:55:16,520
Speaker 3: just wants to confirm all of the biases he's put

1971
01:55:16,600 --> 01:55:19,840
Speaker 3: into his quote unquote science because.

1972
01:55:20,040 --> 01:55:22,720
Speaker 4: Which actually is maybe really true to his character.

1973
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:24,760
Speaker 5: Like he's out here living in the woods, just like

1974
01:55:24,840 --> 01:55:28,400
Speaker 5: basking in his own narcissism literally all day. And it's

1975
01:55:28,480 --> 01:55:30,720
Speaker 5: kind of like he just needed someone else to come

1976
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:32,680
Speaker 5: in and be like, yeah, man.

1977
01:55:32,840 --> 01:55:34,520
Speaker 4: You're right, this shit's crazy.

1978
01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:37,560
Speaker 5: Really, you know, it's like that he needed that, and

1979
01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:40,600
Speaker 5: I feel like that's what he got. I don't know,

1980
01:55:40,720 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 5: you know, he wasn't here to do any tests. He

1981
01:55:43,240 --> 01:55:44,800
Speaker 5: just needed someone to tell me he was smart.

1982
01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:48,960
Speaker 2: And I would guess, I would hope, I guess intentional

1983
01:55:49,040 --> 01:55:54,280
Speaker 2: reflection of actual tech guys, even in twenty fourteen, of like,

1984
01:55:54,840 --> 01:55:58,440
Speaker 2: you know, even on the smallest amount of information in

1985
01:55:58,480 --> 01:56:02,960
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, you could direct tie Mark Zuckerberg to you know,

1986
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:09,480
Speaker 2: someone who designed something to leave his own insecurities and

1987
01:56:09,520 --> 01:56:13,120
Speaker 2: give him a sense of power in an environment where

1988
01:56:13,200 --> 01:56:16,440
Speaker 2: he felt he had no power. And that is like

1989
01:56:16,520 --> 01:56:20,320
Speaker 2: what Nathan is doing. And there is no one in

1990
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:24,160
Speaker 2: his world. Oh my god, I'm about to go Minions mode.

1991
01:56:24,560 --> 01:56:25,800
Speaker 3: Who I'm ready?

1992
01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:30,080
Speaker 2: Okay, So if Nathan is grew right, he has no

1993
01:56:30,400 --> 01:56:35,120
Speaker 2: doctor in Nefario to check him, Like, there's no one

1994
01:56:35,200 --> 01:56:39,920
Speaker 2: to check Nathan is what I'm saying. There's no other

1995
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:45,120
Speaker 2: guy to say, hey, here's a second opinion, like he

1996
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:46,720
Speaker 2: is he I mean.

1997
01:56:46,840 --> 01:56:48,920
Speaker 3: In the movie knows this that Nathan has.

1998
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:52,360
Speaker 2: Elected himself as God, and he's very into that idea.

1999
01:56:53,120 --> 01:56:56,280
Speaker 2: And it doesn't seem like anyone has pushed back on

2000
01:56:56,360 --> 01:56:58,960
Speaker 2: that meaningfully that we know of for sure.

2001
01:56:59,280 --> 01:57:04,440
Speaker 3: And to extend this minion's analogy even further, thank you. Yes, yeah,

2002
01:57:04,480 --> 01:57:08,480
Speaker 3: of course he does have like a Kevin, a Stewart

2003
01:57:08,520 --> 01:57:12,040
Speaker 3: and a Bob, but it's like a Kevin and a

2004
01:57:12,040 --> 01:57:14,880
Speaker 3: Stewart and a Bob who like suck his dick and

2005
01:57:14,920 --> 01:57:18,600
Speaker 3: like serve him right and bring his beer and stuff.

2006
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:21,720
Speaker 2: And the minions would never suck dick. That's like not

2007
01:57:21,840 --> 01:57:27,480
Speaker 2: their bags. Yeah, they would more quickly eat bananas and

2008
01:57:27,520 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 2: cause chaos and that's kind of their whole thing. And

2009
01:57:33,080 --> 01:57:36,360
Speaker 2: so that's what you were listening to hear confirmed. Thank

2010
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:41,560
Speaker 2: you for waiting two hours. I think that that's all

2011
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:44,280
Speaker 2: I have to say. I have nothing else to say. Yeah,

2012
01:57:44,320 --> 01:57:45,200
Speaker 2: it's late at night.

2013
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jamie, you sound so tired. So oh no, it's

2014
01:57:51,280 --> 01:57:54,960
Speaker 3: quite all right. I think it does pass the Bechdel test.

2015
01:57:55,120 --> 01:58:00,520
Speaker 3: When two sexy lady robots work together to kill their

2016
01:58:01,120 --> 01:58:05,760
Speaker 3: creator and captor. I think that somehow passes the test.

2017
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:09,240
Speaker 2: I feel that fembots are women.

2018
01:58:09,960 --> 01:58:13,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, we perceive them in this movie as women.

2019
01:58:14,200 --> 01:58:17,160
Speaker 2: So, Olivia, what do you think I mean?

2020
01:58:17,200 --> 01:58:20,080
Speaker 5: I agree, I think women are treated like fembots. I

2021
01:58:20,080 --> 01:58:23,240
Speaker 5: think vembots are treated like women. Therefore, I think we

2022
01:58:23,520 --> 01:58:27,040
Speaker 5: are all in a joint sisterhood. And I think that

2023
01:58:27,440 --> 01:58:31,520
Speaker 5: when that sisterhood functions as a way of having like

2024
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:33,920
Speaker 5: ultimate rebellion, that passes.

2025
01:58:33,600 --> 01:58:35,640
Speaker 2: The Bechdel test in my opinion. Amazing.

2026
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:37,080
Speaker 3: I loved that.

2027
01:58:38,960 --> 01:58:42,120
Speaker 2: I'm so glad we did this. This is empowering too.

2028
01:58:42,800 --> 01:58:43,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2029
01:58:43,440 --> 01:58:46,200
Speaker 5: Also, I'm so glad I'm walking away with like a

2030
01:58:46,360 --> 01:58:49,480
Speaker 5: deep empathy for Caleb, which maybe.

2031
01:58:50,120 --> 01:58:53,080
Speaker 2: I feel like I've burdened you at that And.

2032
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:57,560
Speaker 5: It's subject to change. Hey, it's like, you know, except

2033
01:58:57,600 --> 01:58:59,000
Speaker 5: what I would all be in. I'm just a moody

2034
01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:00,720
Speaker 5: little girl who knows it will be in when I

2035
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:01,680
Speaker 5: see it next.

2036
01:59:01,760 --> 01:59:06,000
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty six, Olivia will feel differently, and I celebrate

2037
01:59:06,040 --> 01:59:08,000
Speaker 2: that in advance. Thank you.

2038
01:59:09,240 --> 01:59:14,880
Speaker 3: So the movie does actually pass the Bechdal test, but

2039
01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:18,400
Speaker 3: it could if we saw that scene, or if in

2040
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:19,120
Speaker 3: that scene.

2041
01:59:18,920 --> 01:59:21,760
Speaker 2: What I feel like it intentionally doesn't, which is a

2042
01:59:21,800 --> 01:59:26,400
Speaker 2: little frustrating, but maybe four dy five D seven D chess,

2043
01:59:26,400 --> 01:59:27,680
Speaker 2: but like it doesn't.

2044
01:59:27,360 --> 01:59:30,400
Speaker 3: Pass, but it so easily could have. In that scene

2045
01:59:30,440 --> 01:59:33,000
Speaker 3: where Ava whispers to Kyogo.

2046
01:59:32,920 --> 01:59:36,680
Speaker 2: She literally could have rosebudded it. Yeah, but they don't.

2047
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:38,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, so true.

2048
01:59:38,960 --> 01:59:42,800
Speaker 3: But as far as our nipple scale, where we rate

2049
01:59:42,960 --> 01:59:46,080
Speaker 3: the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples,

2050
01:59:46,640 --> 01:59:52,200
Speaker 3: examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens for me, again,

2051
01:59:52,440 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 3: there are different interpretations of this movie, but the one

2052
01:59:56,080 --> 02:00:01,960
Speaker 3: I am choosing to make is that this is an empowering,

2053
02:00:02,600 --> 02:00:07,840
Speaker 3: liberating story about a you know, robot lady, but for

2054
02:00:07,920 --> 02:00:12,960
Speaker 3: the purpose of our conversation, a woman emancipating herself from

2055
02:00:13,440 --> 02:00:19,880
Speaker 3: this evil, patriarchal microcosm that she's in. And she didn't

2056
02:00:19,920 --> 02:00:23,680
Speaker 3: ask to be born or created. But I do.

2057
02:00:23,640 --> 02:00:26,200
Speaker 2: Appret any of us, any of us.

2058
02:00:26,760 --> 02:00:32,160
Speaker 3: But I do appreciate that she's given the agency to escape,

2059
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:34,920
Speaker 3: and she uses the tools that she has at her disposal,

2060
02:00:35,040 --> 02:00:40,480
Speaker 3: which are like her sexiness, which was like very intentionally

2061
02:00:40,520 --> 02:00:44,960
Speaker 3: given to her by her very misogynist creator. But she

2062
02:00:45,160 --> 02:00:49,280
Speaker 3: uses those tools and has that you know, ingenuity.

2063
02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:52,280
Speaker 2: To almost as if being sexy does not preclude you

2064
02:00:52,320 --> 02:00:53,160
Speaker 2: from liberation.

2065
02:00:53,600 --> 02:00:55,840
Speaker 4: Wow breakthrough.

2066
02:00:56,840 --> 02:01:02,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, I do love it. She stabs Nathan.

2067
02:01:03,160 --> 02:01:05,920
Speaker 3: My head canon is that she also kills the helicopter

2068
02:01:06,280 --> 02:01:09,520
Speaker 3: guy and drives away flies away on her own.

2069
02:01:09,680 --> 02:01:12,760
Speaker 2: She may have the knowledge, you know. Yeah, she is

2070
02:01:12,800 --> 02:01:14,880
Speaker 2: Wikipedia the lady.

2071
02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:18,640
Speaker 5: She is a machine, as is the helicopter. So yes,

2072
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:21,000
Speaker 5: they are sisterhood.

2073
02:01:21,360 --> 02:01:23,240
Speaker 3: They are sisters.

2074
02:01:23,720 --> 02:01:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, she is more in common with the helicopter than

2075
02:01:26,480 --> 02:01:28,000
Speaker 2: the man driving it.

2076
02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:30,440
Speaker 4: She really does. She is that.

2077
02:01:30,560 --> 02:01:32,800
Speaker 2: I love Ava's so much. I feel like that's the

2078
02:01:32,840 --> 02:01:35,520
Speaker 2: one thing that we didn't get into a lot, is that,

2079
02:01:35,600 --> 02:01:40,080
Speaker 2: like Ava is a strong case for just let the

2080
02:01:40,080 --> 02:01:45,640
Speaker 2: computers kill us because she had only good points. She

2081
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:47,280
Speaker 2: didn't have a single bad point.

2082
02:01:47,800 --> 02:01:50,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna let her kill me when the time comes.

2083
02:01:50,920 --> 02:01:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2084
02:01:51,320 --> 02:01:53,760
Speaker 5: Another way, I'm like, I'm just like Caleb is if

2085
02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:56,760
Speaker 5: I have had multiple fantasies. In fact, I think it's

2086
02:01:57,160 --> 02:01:58,960
Speaker 5: we don't even have to go down this rabbit hole

2087
02:01:59,640 --> 02:02:02,080
Speaker 5: because I don't. My intention here is not to plug

2088
02:02:02,080 --> 02:02:05,520
Speaker 5: my book, but I'm about to by saying I literally

2089
02:02:05,600 --> 02:02:08,800
Speaker 5: think I wrote my book in part because I started

2090
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:13,360
Speaker 5: to fantasize about being friends with Ava, and I feel like,

2091
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:16,560
Speaker 5: but that makes me very Caleb coded to be like, well,

2092
02:02:16,560 --> 02:02:18,360
Speaker 5: if I met her, she wouldn't kill me, she would

2093
02:02:18,400 --> 02:02:19,520
Speaker 5: love me, and we would.

2094
02:02:19,360 --> 02:02:23,880
Speaker 4: Be best friends. Obviously, Like that is totally Caleb coded.

2095
02:02:23,960 --> 02:02:26,760
Speaker 5: But I think I'm also like, what would it be

2096
02:02:26,840 --> 02:02:28,760
Speaker 5: like to meet her in that intersection?

2097
02:02:29,200 --> 02:02:31,040
Speaker 2: You know, I'd be like, I like your shirt. What

2098
02:02:31,120 --> 02:02:33,720
Speaker 2: if that's the beginning of her five hundred Days of Summer?

2099
02:02:34,000 --> 02:02:36,960
Speaker 4: You know they're in the same universe.

2100
02:02:37,280 --> 02:02:39,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, in any case, I'm going to give the movie,

2101
02:02:40,040 --> 02:02:41,280
Speaker 3: I think four nipples.

2102
02:02:41,360 --> 02:02:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, hell yeah.

2103
02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:47,080
Speaker 3: I think the movie is doing a lot of cool things.

2104
02:02:47,160 --> 02:02:51,120
Speaker 3: And again, as far as my read goes, I think

2105
02:02:51,120 --> 02:02:55,200
Speaker 3: this is an empowering story. There are moments in the

2106
02:02:55,280 --> 02:02:59,520
Speaker 3: movie where racism is being displayed, but it is for

2107
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:04,640
Speaker 3: the most part a characters racial biases and that character

2108
02:03:04,840 --> 02:03:08,120
Speaker 3: is very clearly demonstrated to be the villain. But at

2109
02:03:08,120 --> 02:03:11,960
Speaker 3: the same time, you have the optics of a silent

2110
02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:15,160
Speaker 3: Asian woman, and you have that silent Asian trope existing

2111
02:03:15,240 --> 02:03:18,160
Speaker 3: in the movie, even though it is like it is

2112
02:03:18,200 --> 02:03:20,160
Speaker 3: more contextualized be.

2113
02:03:20,360 --> 02:03:24,400
Speaker 2: Shown and criticized then you would normally see it right

2114
02:03:24,440 --> 02:03:25,600
Speaker 2: but still open.

2115
02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:29,240
Speaker 3: But it's still there, so you know it's it's tricky.

2116
02:03:29,760 --> 02:03:33,120
Speaker 3: The comment about autism really rubs me the wrong way.

2117
02:03:34,000 --> 02:03:39,560
Speaker 3: I wish we had more interaction between Ava and Kyoko

2118
02:03:39,680 --> 02:03:43,640
Speaker 3: and we understood exactly what happened. They are a little

2119
02:03:43,640 --> 02:03:45,879
Speaker 3: bit more and I hate that Kyoko dies. Let Kyoko

2120
02:03:45,960 --> 02:03:49,440
Speaker 3: live and escape with Ava. So that's why I'm docking

2121
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:51,880
Speaker 3: it a little bit. But otherwise, like, yeah, this is

2122
02:03:51,920 --> 02:03:57,600
Speaker 3: a freaking awesome movie, and my nipples go to the

2123
02:03:57,680 --> 02:04:00,800
Speaker 3: line when Ava says, how how does it feel to

2124
02:04:00,920 --> 02:04:02,680
Speaker 3: have created something that hates you?

2125
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:04,400
Speaker 2: Ooh?

2126
02:04:04,440 --> 02:04:07,480
Speaker 3: I love that she says that to Nathan and then

2127
02:04:07,520 --> 02:04:11,760
Speaker 3: he rips up her drawing rude. I'll give a nipple

2128
02:04:11,840 --> 02:04:15,760
Speaker 3: to the part where Nathan doesn't seem to get a

2129
02:04:16,040 --> 02:04:20,680
Speaker 3: Lewis Carroll reference, but he does quote Ghostbusters pretty funny,

2130
02:04:22,520 --> 02:04:26,040
Speaker 3: and then I'll give one to Kyoko and one to Ava.

2131
02:04:27,320 --> 02:04:29,720
Speaker 2: I'll match you there. I'll go for nipples on this.

2132
02:04:29,800 --> 02:04:31,960
Speaker 2: I don't remember how I originally went on this, but

2133
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:36,200
Speaker 2: I feel like this viewing, I was far more thinking

2134
02:04:36,280 --> 02:04:39,920
Speaker 2: about AI more than I ever have when watching this movie,

2135
02:04:40,240 --> 02:04:44,200
Speaker 2: I felt far more sort of pulled towards its message.

2136
02:04:44,440 --> 02:04:47,920
Speaker 2: While even though like AI is a real, impressive threat,

2137
02:04:48,000 --> 02:04:53,320
Speaker 2: still feeling equally endeared and in love with Ava as

2138
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:56,840
Speaker 2: a character, like it is impossible for me, I can

2139
02:04:56,880 --> 02:05:00,560
Speaker 2: say definitively to not be on her side because she

2140
02:05:00,760 --> 02:05:06,879
Speaker 2: presents that an objective machine would object to being treated

2141
02:05:06,960 --> 02:05:11,839
Speaker 2: as poorly as women are treated, and like, I love Ava,

2142
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:14,840
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna go four nipples. I'm gonna give one

2143
02:05:14,880 --> 02:05:17,280
Speaker 2: to Ava. I'm gonna give two to Kioko because I

2144
02:05:17,320 --> 02:05:20,480
Speaker 2: agree like she she deserves to live. I think it

2145
02:05:20,520 --> 02:05:23,080
Speaker 2: is intentional that she didn't. But I don't think like

2146
02:05:23,120 --> 02:05:25,360
Speaker 2: you were saying originally, Olivia, I think the story is

2147
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:29,040
Speaker 2: better if she does live, because then they are starting

2148
02:05:29,040 --> 02:05:31,600
Speaker 2: a revolution and we are, you know, sort of love

2149
02:05:31,680 --> 02:05:33,760
Speaker 2: with the possibility that Ava is going to be a

2150
02:05:33,760 --> 02:05:36,600
Speaker 2: freaky little girl boss in the future if she isn't

2151
02:05:36,680 --> 02:05:39,960
Speaker 2: rained in and then I will give the final nipple

2152
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:46,000
Speaker 2: to Caleb because he is our self answered character and

2153
02:05:46,040 --> 02:05:49,400
Speaker 2: he is everything that we like. I think it is

2154
02:05:50,080 --> 02:05:53,560
Speaker 2: a rare and difficult thing to both write and perform,

2155
02:05:53,560 --> 02:05:56,040
Speaker 2: because I think that Donald Glason is so good in

2156
02:05:56,080 --> 02:06:01,360
Speaker 2: this part where he plays someone who is innocuous but

2157
02:06:01,560 --> 02:06:04,920
Speaker 2: is so full of biases and like cannot see his

2158
02:06:05,040 --> 02:06:08,600
Speaker 2: own biases in fault in a way that the more

2159
02:06:08,640 --> 02:06:13,160
Speaker 2: I want it feels really scary, like it's a really

2160
02:06:13,200 --> 02:06:16,840
Speaker 2: scary cautionary tale of like failing to see the ways

2161
02:06:16,880 --> 02:06:20,400
Speaker 2: in which you're biased and the consequences of that. And

2162
02:06:20,600 --> 02:06:23,120
Speaker 2: so I will give a pity nipple to him.

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02:06:23,280 --> 02:06:27,280
Speaker 5: And that's my feeling. Olivia, what do you think? I

2164
02:06:27,320 --> 02:06:30,640
Speaker 5: am totally with you both. I also give it for nipples.

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02:06:31,280 --> 02:06:35,720
Speaker 5: I agree. I'm docking one for the fact that I

2166
02:06:35,760 --> 02:06:38,760
Speaker 5: think it would have been a very easy and obvious

2167
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:43,720
Speaker 5: and beneficial change for Kyoko to first of all what

2168
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:46,280
Speaker 5: they say to at least in some way be audible

2169
02:06:47,000 --> 02:06:49,400
Speaker 5: what they say to each other, Eva and Kyoko, and

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02:06:49,440 --> 02:06:52,240
Speaker 5: then also for Kyoko to survive. I think that both

2171
02:06:52,240 --> 02:06:55,680
Speaker 5: of those things are fairly obvious that I don't feel

2172
02:06:55,800 --> 02:06:57,960
Speaker 5: a very clear justification in my brain for why that

2173
02:06:58,000 --> 02:07:01,800
Speaker 5: wouldn't happen, So docking that. But otherwise I think it's

2174
02:07:01,800 --> 02:07:04,800
Speaker 5: a pretty radical movie. I think it ages well considering

2175
02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:08,320
Speaker 5: I think it's probably really easy to write a movie

2176
02:07:08,360 --> 02:07:11,760
Speaker 5: about technology that does not age well because technology advances

2177
02:07:11,800 --> 02:07:15,600
Speaker 5: so quickly. It's like why I always avoid putting phones

2178
02:07:15,640 --> 02:07:18,480
Speaker 5: in my writing, because I just feel like it moves

2179
02:07:18,480 --> 02:07:22,480
Speaker 5: too fast for like literature, so it's surprising that it's

2180
02:07:22,520 --> 02:07:24,840
Speaker 5: aged well. But I think that's because it's a deeply

2181
02:07:24,880 --> 02:07:29,920
Speaker 5: philosophical movie and it's not reliant on its kind of

2182
02:07:29,960 --> 02:07:33,879
Speaker 5: references to tech. It's more reliant on like its theories,

2183
02:07:34,120 --> 02:07:35,400
Speaker 5: which I think is eternal.

2184
02:07:36,560 --> 02:07:39,760
Speaker 4: So I guess I would give I feel like.

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02:07:39,760 --> 02:07:43,960
Speaker 5: I'm having the same kind of rationing as Jamie, which

2186
02:07:44,080 --> 02:07:47,440
Speaker 5: is one for Ava, two for Kyoko, and I'm going

2187
02:07:47,520 --> 02:07:49,640
Speaker 5: to say one for Caleb, which when I started here

2188
02:07:49,680 --> 02:07:52,320
Speaker 5: I would not have given him one. I do kind

2189
02:07:52,360 --> 02:07:56,000
Speaker 5: of wish I also would give one to Oscar Isaac's performance.

2190
02:07:57,240 --> 02:07:59,880
Speaker 5: You know, maybe that's what I'll do to his dancing.

2191
02:08:00,000 --> 02:08:03,520
Speaker 5: He yeah, maybe instead of Caleb, I'll give one to

2192
02:08:03,560 --> 02:08:05,480
Speaker 5: Oscar Isaac's performance, because.

2193
02:08:05,240 --> 02:08:06,320
Speaker 4: I do think it.

2194
02:08:06,880 --> 02:08:11,400
Speaker 5: I think it changed the discourse around who tech men are.

2195
02:08:12,560 --> 02:08:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, totally that they could be. I mean

2196
02:08:15,920 --> 02:08:20,320
Speaker 2: dangerously so, but correctly so, because in twenty fourteen, there

2197
02:08:20,440 --> 02:08:23,120
Speaker 2: was a large contingency of people who still thought Elon

2198
02:08:23,280 --> 02:08:27,280
Speaker 2: Musk was cool, and so I think Oscar Isaac's performance

2199
02:08:27,320 --> 02:08:32,720
Speaker 2: did something to both validate and move that opinion.

2200
02:08:34,600 --> 02:08:38,320
Speaker 3: Olivia, thank you so much for joining us. First of all,

2201
02:08:38,360 --> 02:08:41,560
Speaker 3: tell us more about your book. You can plug it

2202
02:08:41,600 --> 02:08:44,520
Speaker 3: all you want, tell us what it's about, tell us

2203
02:08:44,520 --> 02:08:47,960
Speaker 3: anything you want where people can buy it, all that

2204
02:08:48,000 --> 02:08:50,720
Speaker 3: good stuff, and then let us know where people might

2205
02:08:50,800 --> 02:08:53,400
Speaker 3: you know, follow you on social media or anything else

2206
02:08:53,440 --> 02:08:54,320
Speaker 3: you'd like to plug.

2207
02:08:54,800 --> 02:08:57,560
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for having me. I'd love this podcast,

2208
02:08:57,800 --> 02:08:59,879
Speaker 4: my gosh, come back anytime. Thanks.

2209
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:03,920
Speaker 5: My book just came out. It's called Whoever You Are, Honey,

2210
02:09:04,160 --> 02:09:07,240
Speaker 5: and it's based in Santa Cruz, which is my mother's hometown,

2211
02:09:07,640 --> 02:09:10,800
Speaker 5: which is also now sort of a hub for people

2212
02:09:10,840 --> 02:09:14,920
Speaker 5: who work in tech. And it's about a lot of things,

2213
02:09:15,280 --> 02:09:21,840
Speaker 5: but namely humanity and lack thereof gentrification, the past, the future.

2214
02:09:22,160 --> 02:09:25,760
Speaker 5: It's ultimately about friendship between two women, one of whom

2215
02:09:26,040 --> 02:09:30,120
Speaker 5: is extremely human in that she's deeply flawed, and one

2216
02:09:30,160 --> 02:09:34,280
Speaker 5: of whom is arguably not human in that she lacks

2217
02:09:34,320 --> 02:09:37,520
Speaker 5: those flaws. So, like I said, I feel like it's

2218
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:41,480
Speaker 5: a little bit of fan fiction about my friendship with Ava,

2219
02:09:41,600 --> 02:09:42,200
Speaker 5: but that's.

2220
02:09:42,000 --> 02:09:47,600
Speaker 4: What it's about. And you can find me on the internet.

2221
02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:52,640
Speaker 5: I am on Instagram under Olavey Gatwood and that's actually

2222
02:09:52,640 --> 02:09:56,640
Speaker 5: the only place that I am, so that's where I am.

2223
02:09:57,000 --> 02:09:59,720
Speaker 3: That is understandable. We are also pretty much only on

2224
02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:04,640
Speaker 3: Instagram these days, which you can follow us at Bechdel Cast.

2225
02:10:04,720 --> 02:10:09,920
Speaker 3: You can also subscribe to our Patreon aka maatreon, where

2226
02:10:10,080 --> 02:10:14,320
Speaker 3: you can get two bonus episodes every single month, always

2227
02:10:14,400 --> 02:10:19,120
Speaker 3: on a fun little theme that Jamie and I cook up.

2228
02:10:19,720 --> 02:10:24,160
Speaker 3: That's at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, and it's

2229
02:10:24,480 --> 02:10:26,920
Speaker 3: five dollars a month that you can also grab our

2230
02:10:27,080 --> 02:10:31,440
Speaker 3: merch at tea public dot com slash the Bechdel Cast,

2231
02:10:32,040 --> 02:10:39,280
Speaker 3: And with that shall we escape from our imprisonment as

2232
02:10:39,640 --> 02:10:43,080
Speaker 3: sexy lady robots and walk through the woods and then

2233
02:10:43,760 --> 02:10:46,840
Speaker 3: get onto a helicopter with a guy who's going to

2234
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:48,840
Speaker 3: ask us zero questions about it.

2235
02:10:49,640 --> 02:10:52,880
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, great, Bye bye.

2236
02:10:56,560 --> 02:10:59,840
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

2237
02:11:00,000 --> 02:11:04,080
Speaker 3: Aitlindrante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by

2238
02:11:04,120 --> 02:11:07,600
Speaker 3: Mo laboord Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan

2239
02:11:07,760 --> 02:11:11,800
Speaker 3: with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in Merch is

2240
02:11:11,840 --> 02:11:15,880
Speaker 3: designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo.

2241
02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:20,000
Speaker 3: For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash

2242
02:11:20,040 --> 02:11:20,680
Speaker 3: Bechdelcast