1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: missing day seventeen. 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 2: How did this. 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: Guy seemingly amateurish yanking up foliage to put over the 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: door cam, wearing a gun polyester gun holster hanging down 6 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: around his crotch. 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: How has this guy managed to. 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: Elude law enforcement including the FBI. Is Nancy Guthrie still alive? 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: If so, what is she enduring? I'm Nancy Grace. This 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: with us. 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 3: It's been two weeks since our mom was taken. We 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 3: still have hope, We still believe to whoever has her 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 3: or knows where she is. It's never too late. 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: As we go to air tonight, a blue fly technology, 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 1: a very sophisticated technology to detect low frequency bluetooth waves 17 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: is being used hopefully to find some evidence of Nancy 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: Guthrie's heart monitor perpase Maker. 19 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: This as reports of the match. 20 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: To the single glove found As we hear DNA will 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: link to the DNA found in the home. How do 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: they know that? Is that inaccurate? Is that overstating? 23 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: Again? 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to make sense of 25 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: what we are learning. Now to Dave Mac, joining US 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave Mac, tell me about the 27 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: blue fly technology. 28 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 4: This is amazing technology, Nancy, that focuses in on Bluetooth 29 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 4: identities electronics. Okay, it flies on a drone about six 30 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 4: hundred It can pick up the Bluetooth signal or a 31 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 4: Wi Fi signal from over two football fields away, about 32 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 4: six hundred and sixty five feet. 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: Well, hold on, hold on. 34 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: Did you say two football feels away. Yes, I didn't 35 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: understand that that is significant. 36 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 2: Hold on, hold on, Dave Mac. 37 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons joining US Director Operations USP, a nationwide security 38 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: leading a team of investigators around the world to find 39 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: missing people. Also, former marine an Iraqi war Vet Fitz, thank. 40 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: You for being with us tonight. Now hold on two 41 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: football fields away. That is news to me. Tell me 42 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: how that works. 43 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, so we've actually learned in recent days. In fellow 44 00:02:55,280 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 5: former marine Dave Kennedy and cybersecurity expert, has posted shared 45 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 5: this publicly that he's created an integration with an amplifier, 46 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 5: a larger antenna. Basically that gives the sniffer a bigger nose. 47 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 5: So when these bluetooth low energy signals only read. 48 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 1: Just a trial lawyer. Fattis and I are just trial lawyer. 49 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: Doctor Jerry Lynn Utter is with us. 50 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 2: She's a SHRINKO. 51 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan is a blood expert, death investigator, and Dave 52 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: Max reporter. You need to slow down so us Mere 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: mortals can understand. 54 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 6: What you just said. 55 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: Okay, if you don't mind start over. 56 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 7: Yes. 57 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 5: So in a nutshell, we've learned in the last day 58 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 5: or two from Dave Kennedy on X Cybersecurity Expert, that 59 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 5: he's created the ability to amplify with an antenna that 60 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 5: blue sniffer. So when the range would typically be twenty 61 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 5: five to thirty feet for Nancy's pacemaker, he's gotten that 62 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 5: knows to be bigger on the sniffer where it's sniffing 63 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,679 Speaker 5: these signals up to eight hundred feet, which obviously makes 64 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 5: the ability for this search to happen much greater. In essence, 65 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 5: what this technology, the advancements that's happened inside of this 66 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 5: case that we've learned about is they're able to amplify 67 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 5: that signal. Okay, so with an antenna they're able to 68 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 5: look farther away. So typically these ble devices like Nancy's 69 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 5: pacemaker would only be communicating at twenty five to thirty feet. 70 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 5: Now law enforcement has a range of more like six 71 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 5: to eight hundred feet, so that's going to make the 72 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,239 Speaker 5: possibility of locating Nancy much fits. 73 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: Look at your screen right there, I think the guy, 74 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: by the way, this is from our friends at Fox 75 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: News who shared this with us. If I could see 76 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: that again, please, it looked to me like he was 77 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: holding it in his lap. I was trying to see 78 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: where it is attached to the helicopter. It looks to 79 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: me like he's holding it. Would that make sense, Fitzgibbons. 80 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 5: I believe that they had it strapped onto one of 81 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 5: the skids on that helicopter, and he may be holding 82 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 5: a device that's helping to see the location of these pings, 83 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 5: these signals that they're getting. But I'm pretty certain that 84 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 5: they had a fixed it. 85 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: Let's see the video again and let's see if he's right. 86 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: I bet he is. 87 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: That it's attached to one of the skids. Guys, our 88 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: friends from Fox News shared this with us. We're looking 89 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: for the blue fly technology, and yeah, I think you're right. Fits, 90 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely correct. So let's see what it 91 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: actually looks like. What the device looks like now, what 92 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: you're seeing right now. We believe drone drones were then used. 93 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: Drones were used, it's my understanding, Dave matt Es. No, 94 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: was the blue Flight then attached to drones so they 95 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 1: could get lower to the ground. 96 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, at first they were using helicopters playing grid patterns. 97 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 6: Then they switched to drones after four days. 98 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: Okay, back to Brian Fitzgibbons. So wow, Dave, they've been 99 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: doing this now for at least five days. Okay, Brian, 100 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: if you could very slowly educate us on the blue 101 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: fly technology again, it's been around for a while, but 102 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: you don't hear it openly discussed. The FBI had to 103 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: bring this in. I do not think local law enforcement, 104 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: nano's had it. So again, very slowly for us, many 105 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: people just learning about it. 106 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 2: Tell me again. 107 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, so this technology began as a pretty high end 108 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 5: defense technology, and then they found with it a search 109 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 5: and rescue application quite some time ago, and then they 110 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 5: began to use it in search and rescue scenarios missing hikers, skiers, 111 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 5: things like that that they believed had devices. 112 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: It started how it started? 113 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 5: How so this was originally a cyber security tech used 114 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 5: in the defense industry to find and locate any surreptitious 115 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 5: devices that were emitting radio frequencies in or near such 116 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 5: as what this would be, you know, foreign national governments 117 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 5: trying to listen in or capture information in and around 118 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 5: Department of Defense or intelligence facilities, and this tech and 119 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 5: sniff that. 120 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: Them up, put them up. I need to look at 121 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: you while you're saying this. Okay, I knew about bluefly, 122 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: but I didn't know that. Okay, it started with cybersecurity 123 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: tech used in the defense industry to find surreptitious devices 124 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: such as those used by foreign national governments trying to 125 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: listen in. 126 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:23,679 Speaker 2: Is that what you just said. 127 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 5: Yes, So there could be any number of things that 128 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 5: these devices that are not you know, allowed to be 129 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 5: there could be doing, and that that technology they found 130 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 5: a greater application for or new application for it in 131 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 5: the search and rescue space that they could apply that 132 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 5: that same methodology in the same use case to go 133 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 5: out and find devices associated with missing persons. And that's 134 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,599 Speaker 5: where you've seen this tech implemented kind of in the mainstream, 135 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 5: is in search and applications such as you know, you 136 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 5: have the missing hiker, missing skier, missing persons that have 137 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 5: devices on them. 138 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 7: This is not the first time that this has been used. 139 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 5: I think what's what's novel here is, you know what 140 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 5: I had spoken about that cybersecurity expert Dave Kennedy has 141 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 5: found is the ability to amplify that, to increase the range. 142 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 5: That's the that's the breakthrough here with Nancy's case. 143 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: What kind of devices would a hiker or a ski 144 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: er have on them that the blue fly could pick up? 145 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 5: So this could be anything like an air tag, bluetooth, headphones, 146 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 5: any type of hearing aid, pacemaker, or cell phone certainly you. 147 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 7: Know would if the battery life were still on. 148 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 5: It's any type of device on the Grifferee that's connecting, 149 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 5: you know, with a computer, with medical device, anything like that. 150 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: Wow, that was a lot of information. 151 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 152 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: Guys Brian Fitzgibbons joining us Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security. Now, 153 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: explain to me if the blue fly can work as 154 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: I'm learning now over to football fields in length, why 155 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: did they decide to put it on a drone and 156 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: fly it low to the ground just better chances of 157 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: picking something up. 158 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, and they can amplify the search right there. Are 159 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 5: only so many helicopters available. You know, you obviously have 160 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 5: fuel costs and things like that. Maintenance that has to happen. 161 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 7: So putting it. 162 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 5: Up on drones is going to magnify the number of 163 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 5: beacons on that network looking for Nancy's pacemaker. 164 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 7: One thing I will mention is. 165 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 5: That they're able to zero in on Nancy's pacemaker, so 166 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 5: they're able to basically filter that search to only be 167 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 5: looking for this device. 168 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 7: So it's going to be pretty efficient. 169 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 5: The challenge that they're going to face is this pacemaker 170 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 5: is likely only communicating out a signal every three to 171 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 5: four minutes, so they have to catch it at the 172 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 5: right time. This is not going to be as basic 173 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 5: as flying over all of Tucson. 174 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 7: There's going to be some luck involved here. 175 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: Explain what you're saying about her pacemaker emitting signals every 176 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: three to four minutes. 177 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: I thought it was constant. 178 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, So that device is going to be you know, 179 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 5: with a pacemaker, it's connected to a phone, right and 180 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 5: at every three or four minutes it's sending that signal 181 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 5: and sharing information packets about you know, the heart health 182 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 5: or whatever's going on with the pacemaker. That's not happening 183 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 5: every second, all the time. That's happening on a routine right, 184 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 5: And I believe with this device. It's been reported that 185 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 5: this device would hurt the type that she has would 186 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 5: be reporting every three to four minutes, So it's not 187 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 5: a it's not a constant beacon. It's happening on a 188 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 5: regimen of three to four minutes. 189 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: Well, okay, I'm curious as to what area they're covering with. 190 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 2: The drones and the blue fly. 191 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: Is there anything else, Brian, that you can tell us 192 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: about this device? 193 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 5: No, I think I think we've covered it here that 194 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 5: you know, our hope is that with this amplification possibility 195 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 5: to extend the range of the sniffer, that investigators may 196 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 5: have some good success in locating Nancy. 197 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: Wow. 198 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: Okay, and you told me that it goes to it 199 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: can now reach two football fields or over to football fields. 200 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 7: Yeah. 201 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 5: The numbers that I've seen reported by Dave Kennedy, who's 202 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 5: been pretty public about this, is that it's up to 203 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 5: eight hundred feet, so you know that would be over 204 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 5: two football fields. 205 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: To Eric Fattus joining us, the founder of the law 206 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: offices of Eric Fattus, Eric, this is the type of 207 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: technology that would be challenged in court, not because it's wrong, 208 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: not because it doesn't work very simply the same way 209 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: fingerprints were once challenged in court, the way DNA was 210 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: challenged in court, the way familial DNA was challenged in court. 211 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: Explain there's going to be a challenge, is going to 212 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: They'll lose, of course, but it will be a big hurdle. 213 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: Explain why it will certainly be a challenge. 214 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 8: So the course like science that has been generally accepted, 215 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 8: that that you know, has widespread accept in scientific consensus, 216 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 8: and we have new technology. There just hasn't been enough 217 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 8: time for the scientific community to reach that position. And 218 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 8: so certainly what defense would do in court is say, hey, 219 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 8: the principles behind this are not reasonably reliable. They have 220 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 8: not been tested enough for this to be admitted into 221 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 8: evidence at what could be a very high profile criminal drive. 222 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: Well, of course, Eric, it has been tested in the 223 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: military sector. I mean, Brian has givens how long has 224 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: blue flag been used in the military sector anyway. 225 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 5: That's not clear, but I would say that this type 226 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 5: of signals intelligence has been used for quite some time. 227 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 5: You know, the military and intelligence apparatus certainly been concerned 228 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 5: for you know, more than a couple of decades on 229 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 5: finding devices that shouldn't be in and around their facilities. 230 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: So fat us. 231 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: Even though this type of technology has been around, as 232 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: he says, for about two decades that we know of 233 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: what you're referring to, I believe is acceptance in court 234 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: and acceptance by appellate courts. 235 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: Like DNA was accepted. 236 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: Yes, DNA had been used since in war I guess, 237 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: going back all the way to at least the Korean War, 238 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: and you get an immediate field test answer on DNA 239 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: that said it wasn't accepted in criminal trials until many, many. 240 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: More years later. 241 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: So you've got to have it accepted in court. It 242 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: may be a landmark case. For all we know, if 243 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: this ever goes to trial allowing bluefly signal sniffer technology 244 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: in is that it will get in. 245 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: There's no question about it. 246 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: You'll bring in a couple of secret service guys and 247 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: they'll explain it to the court and it will come in. 248 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 2: It's just an evidentiary hurdle you have to go through. 249 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: I want to go back to what's happening now in 250 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: the Nancy Guthrie search. It's amazing to me absolutely amazing 251 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: to me. To Joseph Scott Morgan joining us in addition 252 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: to Dave matt from Crime Stories and Eric Fattis trial lawyer. 253 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: Josecott Morgan is professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University 254 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: that has an incredible criminal evidentiary program. He is a 255 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: death investigator with over ten thousand death scene investigations under 256 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: his belt. 257 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: He's the author of Blood Beneath. 258 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, and he's the star of a 259 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: Hitting You podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Scott, 260 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: look at this guy on the front porch. 261 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: For the five millionth time. 262 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: I just keep looking at it and looking at it 263 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: and slowing it and stopping it and looking at it. 264 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: How in the hay has this guy and his cronies, 265 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: Let's see, the video managed. 266 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 2: To outsmart the Feds. 267 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: Granted Nanos was a speed bump to the FEDS getting involved, 268 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: although he denies it. But that said, I don't know 269 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: how this guy, and you know, water seeks his own level. 270 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: Birds of a feather all that you know, his cronies 271 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,959 Speaker 1: are no different than him. Although somebody, if that ransom 272 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: note is connected to him. 273 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 2: Does have a little bit of smarts. 274 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: How the hey has this guy managed to outsmart a 275 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: fleet of law enforcement I don't get it, Joe Scott. 276 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: Is it just the perfect storm aligning? 277 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 9: Yeah? I think so, That's my thought at least. But 278 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 9: you know, just looking at these images alone Nancy him 279 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 9: walking up onto the portico there, up to the patio 280 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 9: or the exterior there, there's an entire profile that can 281 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 9: be built out of this guy simply based on clothing alone. 282 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 9: We do know that he likes to, for instance, shop 283 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 9: at Walmart. That Ozark backpack is famously Ozark products are 284 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 9: sold there. It's also been alluded to that this pistol 285 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 9: holster that he's carrying this is not something that those 286 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 9: of us that have been in law enforcement are that 287 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 9: are as we say, under arms at any moment in time. 288 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 9: This is not something I'm going to go out and 289 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 9: pick up in order to carry my own weapon. This 290 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 9: is something to be bought off the shelf there. I 291 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 9: think there's connectivity in that space. Not to mention, the 292 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 9: jacket that he's wearing is very specific. These are some 293 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 9: of the things that we look for as practitioners. Can't 294 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 9: speak to the trousers that mask that he's wearing. Oh 295 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 9: my lord, you know, it's got very specific features relative 296 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 9: to that as well. I'm reminded of case up in 297 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 9: Ohio that I covered a few years ago, the infamous 298 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 9: piked and massacre, where the mother of the family facilitated 299 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 9: eight homicide in one night. The mother that helped facilitate 300 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 9: this case she went to Walmart specifically and bought shoes 301 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,239 Speaker 9: for her family to wear and perpetrate these crimes. So 302 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 9: she was specific in her intent relative to acquire garments. 303 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 9: I think that they're building that out. The FBI has 304 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 9: an incredible database when it comes to clothing alone. I 305 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 9: think people would be shocked at what they know about this. 306 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 9: I think that there's a lot of stuff going on 307 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 9: in the background. If you take a look at kind 308 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 9: of the biometric features of this guy, I think one 309 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 9: of the interesting things I'm sure that the folks at 310 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 9: Langley are looking at here or Quantico, is that they're 311 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 9: going to be doing a gate analysis on this guy 312 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 9: as well. He looks like he lists to one way. 313 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 9: His legs appear at least to be slightly bowed, his 314 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 9: feet supinnate, which means he walks on the edges of 315 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,959 Speaker 9: the outer edges of his feet. His stride is very specific, 316 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 9: and you know right there he's kind of hunched up. 317 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 9: We're looking for things, I think to cover up because 318 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 9: he has an awareness of this ness camera. I don't 319 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 9: think he had it previously. You think he's surprised when 320 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 9: he sees it. But there's any number of things that 321 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 9: can be built out with this alone. And Nancy, we 322 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 9: haven't even touched on DNA at this point. 323 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: Hey, I want to follow up on what you said. 324 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: You stated that there was a definite profile of the 325 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: based on his clothing alone. Yeah, within oh gosh, an 326 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: hour or an hour that this video came out, our 327 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: staff at Crime Stories Angelica specifically, and I believe Jessica 328 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: as well had gone online and sleuthed and realized that 329 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: not only did the backpack, the Ozart backpack come from Walmart, 330 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: the similar jacket is from Walmart, the sche mask similar 331 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: from Walmart. 332 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 6: And you know that. 333 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: They also sell gloves of this nature at Walmart, and specifically, 334 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: burner phones are sold at Walmart. 335 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: Let me see Scott. 336 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: Scott, the first guy that was caught and released Plazuela. 337 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: He was stopped. 338 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: Now they're not saying this, but obviously he will stopped 339 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: because his cell phone had registered in that neighborhood many 340 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: many times, and maybe right around Nancy Guthrie's home. Then 341 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: this past weekend, just a few nights ago, more people 342 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: about the two mile range were roused in the middle 343 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: of the night, detained home, searched, catch and release. Again 344 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: why there had to be their cell phone activity in 345 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: and around the neighborhood at the time of the break in. 346 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: So that's what they're doing. 347 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: They're looking at cell phone data in the neighborhood and 348 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: it's a difficult thing to do. It requires a team 349 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: of people to pull all the data. And this probably 350 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: two people pulling, two people analyzing a couple in Quantico 351 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: and a couple on the ground. 352 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 2: But that said phones, if it's. 353 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: A burner phone, the purp is using not nearly as 354 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: easy to find. This is my dream, okay, my sweet dream, 355 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: is that all of these items were bought at the 356 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: same time, so they will be on the same receipt. 357 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: Now, if that is not a jackpot, I don't know 358 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 2: what is. 359 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: But if many of these items originated at Walmart, go ahead, jump. 360 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 9: In please CCTV Walmart. That's how that's how like the 361 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 9: case I cited out of Ohio that you can see 362 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 9: the mother purchasing these items there. 363 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: And so why was she buying footwear to commit murder. 364 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 9: So that there could not be tie backs relative to 365 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 9: footprints that are left behind and blood? This was a 366 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 9: slaughter that I covered. So if you have new shoes, 367 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 9: remember we talked about this guy's walk just a second ago, 368 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 9: pronate versus superinnate and that sort of thing. 369 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: What kind of shoes did she buy for a slaughter? 370 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 9: Yeah, they were just off the rack if I remember correctly, black, 371 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 9: low end lace up athletic shoes. And so what happens 372 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 9: is is that if you and I, well, we're not 373 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 9: a good comparison. If Dave and I went out and 374 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 9: purchased a pair of shoes at Walmart, all right, the 375 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 9: same identical pair, just in an hour or so, just 376 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 9: wearing them, if we're walking in the same space, you 377 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,479 Speaker 9: wouldn't pick up on much of a wear pattern. If 378 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 9: you wear shoes over a protracted period of time, even 379 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 9: though they're the same brand, daves are going to look 380 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 9: different from mine, say a week out, two weeks out. 381 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 9: And because the way you know, the Good Lord made 382 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 9: us and the way we take our strides. So in 383 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 9: that particular case, those purchase of the purchases of those shoes, 384 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 9: actually they slipped them on before they went into the residents, Okay, 385 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 9: so that you couldn't pick up on specific forensic points 386 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 9: of identification. Now you know, I don't know. I don't 387 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 9: know anything about this guy's footwear. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying. 388 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 9: I have no idea, but I can tell you this 389 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 9: dollars of donuts are They're trying to track down the 390 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 9: shoes as well to see if there's anything there. I 391 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 9: don't know what was in the house. I don't know 392 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,239 Speaker 9: if he tracked through. I could see them doing what 393 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 9: are called mylar lifts of dust off of the floor. 394 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 9: It's a magnetic lift that we do at crime scenes 395 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 9: where you can actually get a foot footprint pattern off 396 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 9: of this. They would have been searching for that, hopefully 397 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 9: in the event that they didn't go in and really 398 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 9: nearly screw up anything in there when they're walking through 399 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 9: the house. Because you know, initially when you work a 400 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 9: so called kissing, kidnapping or missing person's case, it's for 401 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 9: neetic you walk in, you not treating it necessarily like 402 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 9: a crime scene. Like we would with a homicide scene. 403 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 9: You're going closet to closet, you're clearing the house, you're 404 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 9: looking through you're trying to look under their beds, all 405 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 9: that sort of stuff, and just trying to assess the 406 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 9: scene to see if you can find her anywhere in there. 407 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 9: Then you have to back out at that point in 408 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 9: time and lock it down again. I know I'm preaching 409 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 9: the choir here. Another problem that I have is the 410 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 9: fact that I didn't lock it down. They keep it 411 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 9: locked down. You see what I'm saying, And that's problematic 412 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 9: for me. 413 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 3: I wanted to come on and it's been two weeks 414 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: since our mom was taken, and I just wanted to 415 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 3: come on and say that we still have hope and 416 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 3: we still. 417 00:25:54,560 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: Believe Savannah Guthrie beaten down, exhausted, begging. 418 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: Them it's not too late to do the right thing. 419 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: What more do we know about the search for Nancy Guthrie? 420 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 2: Is she alive? What is she enduring? How is she living? 421 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: All these thoughts must be colliding in the brains of 422 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: her three children every minute of every day. Straight out 423 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: to an all star panel, making sense of what we know? 424 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the other developments. First of all, 425 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: Dave mac I understand that the FBI is going from 426 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: gun store to gun store to gun store. They were 427 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: doing it last night and they're doing it tonight, and 428 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: they're showing a list of about forty people we've been 429 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: told in forty photos, corresponding photos and asking questions of 430 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: the gun shop owners. 431 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 2: What do you know? 432 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 4: That's what we're finding out is they've got a list 433 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 4: of forty people with pictures and they're just canvassing. They're 434 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 4: going door to door to every gun store in the area, 435 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 4: and they're showing the pictures, they're showing the names. 436 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 6: Do you know this person? That's part and then. 437 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 4: The second part is have you guys sold anything like 438 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 4: this to this individual? 439 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 6: Now? Showing up with forty people, that's a lot. 440 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,959 Speaker 4: However, you know, gun store owners tend to deal a 441 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 4: lot with the same people. Gun people you know visit 442 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 4: gun stores, so this might actually stick out because what 443 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 4: we're seeing, especially with the holster not being a high 444 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 4: quality holster, the individual might be somebody that stood out 445 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 4: to one of these shop owners. So they've got pictures, 446 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 4: they've gotten names. You know, stores can run names. Gun 447 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 4: shops have more control than most on when they sell products, 448 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 4: you know, getting information from the buyer. So they've got 449 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 4: an opportunity to actually narrow down that list. Forty people, 450 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 4: forty names. That's a lot to start with, but you 451 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 4: can narrow it down fairly quickly. 452 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: Doctor Jerlyne Utter, clinical psychologists specializing in psychological evaluations of 453 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: those in the criminal justice system. 454 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: Author of Mainlining Philly and More. 455 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: Producer of Utter Nonsense, A dot of Exploration of addiction. 456 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: Doctor Jerlyn Utter, thank you for being with us. 457 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: I believe it would stand out even more so in 458 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: a gunshop owner's mind if the perp came in with 459 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: another person for some reason, that sticks in your mind 460 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: more than just a single customer. Gunshop owners are very, 461 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: very wary and the places are okay. Also, don't show 462 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: her snack scratching her nose, okay, if you can help it, 463 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Jerlyn Utter, what is a way to jog the 464 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: memories of the gun store owners? 465 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 10: I think to your point, Nancy, the fact when when 466 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 10: folks come in together, that is something that tends to 467 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 10: stick in gun owner's name in their brains. Because a 468 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 10: lot of the times there's something called a straw purchase. 469 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 10: So when people are trying to come in and they 470 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 10: have somebody with a clean record, and they bring the 471 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 10: person that's actually going to purchase the gun or that 472 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 10: wants the gun. Seeing people together usually raises a red 473 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 10: flag because you're like, why are there two people here? 474 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 10: You know, you're not somebody that may be you know, 475 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 10: equipped or trained, or know what it is that you 476 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 10: want or what you're buying, So sometimes you'll bring along 477 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 10: someone else. So I think that that is something that 478 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 10: tends to stick in their minds just due to something 479 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 10: called a straw purchase and an illegal gun purchase, specifically 480 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 10: when you bring someone in that can't purchase the gun 481 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 10: because they have a criminal record, and the person standing 482 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 10: before the shop owner is buying it with the intent 483 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 10: of giving it to someone else. So a lot of 484 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 10: the times when you see partners or when you see 485 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 10: two people together, that is something that that does generally 486 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 10: raise a red flag because they want to make sure 487 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 10: who they're selling equipment or who they're selling a gun 488 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 10: to is going to that individual and not perhaps the 489 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 10: person that's accompanying that individual to the store. So that's 490 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 10: definitely something they are mindful. 491 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: Love Dotter Jerlen, are you saying straw as in, hey, 492 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: straw purchase. 493 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's that. 494 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 10: So a straw purchase is so let's just say I 495 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 10: have a criminal record, Nancy, and I have a felony record, 496 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 10: and I am not allowed to purchase a gun. So 497 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 10: what I will do is I will bring someone a 498 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,719 Speaker 10: friend or get in touch with someone who has a 499 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 10: clean record. And that record's criminal as well as a 500 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 10: psychiatric record. You can't have any what we call involuntary 501 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 10: psychiatric commitments and get and purchase a gun. So I 502 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 10: will bring that person with me. And even though I 503 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 10: am the person who wants the gun, I can't purchase 504 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 10: it because I'm a felon, I'm a convicted felon, or 505 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 10: I have serious psychiatric issues. So I accompany that individual 506 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 10: and I go into that store with them, and the 507 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 10: person with the clean record or the person that doesn't 508 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 10: have a criminal record, is the one that is facing 509 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 10: the gun store owner, and I'm with them saying, hey, 510 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 10: I want that gun or I want that but really, 511 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 10: I can't be the one to communicate or step up 512 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 10: to the gun owner, to the gun shop owner. I 513 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 10: have to be the one in the background, even though 514 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 10: it's for me. So a straw purchase is essentially an 515 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 10: illegal purchase where you bring somebody else into the gun 516 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 10: shop that does not have the criminal record. They are 517 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 10: the one who has you know, who purchases the gun, 518 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 10: it's in their name. Essentially, when they leave the gun store, 519 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 10: they turn around and they give it to their buddy 520 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 10: or the person who accompanied them, because that's the person 521 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 10: who really, you know, is going to be utilizing the gun. 522 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 2: Wow rive as gibbons. 523 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: That would certainly raise the suspicions of the gun store 524 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: owner when you're doing a straw purchase, she described it. 525 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 2: What do you make of that? 526 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: And how can we get the gun owner's memory The 527 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: gun store owner's memory jogged? 528 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 7: No, Doctor Cherry, Lyn's absolutely right. 529 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 5: You know, this could very well be a straw purchase, 530 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 5: and in this case, the actual perpetrator may have not 531 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 5: even gone into the store. We see that quite often. 532 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 5: How do we get these gun owners to figure it out? 533 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 7: Well? 534 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 5: Right now, as of yesterday, federal agents were canvassing the 535 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 5: greater Tucson area with forty photos showing these photos and 536 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 5: names to gun store owners to do just that, to 537 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 5: see if they recognized any of these individuals having entered 538 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 5: that business. 539 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter, Brian is that gun 540 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: stores are like Vegas. They are covered in surveillance video. 541 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: So that's good. 542 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 5: Absolutely, Yeah, there's no way that you would not that 543 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 5: you could escape having some kind of record of that purchase. 544 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: Dave Mac, do you have to present a fingerprint in Arizona. 545 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: To buy a gun at a gun store? 546 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: And that's assuming he got a gun at a gun 547 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: store as opposed to a gun show or you know, bootleg, Go. 548 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 6: Ahead, No, you don't have to. 549 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 4: They do not require a fingerprint, and you don't have 550 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 4: to have like a separate photo taken. You have to 551 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 4: present a government issued photo ID, such as an Arizona 552 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 4: driver's license, that would be sufficient in purchasing a web 553 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 4: a gun from a gun store, but no fingerprint is required. 554 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: One thing I do know, back to what you were saying, 555 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, is you can't get everything at Walmart. They 556 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: don't sell handguns, so he would have had to go 557 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: somewhere else. But to go to a regular gun store, 558 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: I'm not seeing it. Maybe a gun show where the 559 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: requirements were more let's just say relaxed, or a bootleg 560 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: stolen you know, it could be from anywhere. 561 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I suppose that it could be, or you know, 562 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 9: there are cases out there where you have people that 563 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 9: are highly organized as criminals they share I don't know 564 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 9: if have you heard of people sharing weapons, because this 565 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 9: does happen. I've worked cases involving this where you have 566 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 9: individuals that will come to a concentric area and weapons 567 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 9: will be shared or literally rented. We actually had cases 568 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 9: in Atlanta involving involving this where you had one weapon 569 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 9: that was connected to multiple primes that were committed by 570 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 9: in completely individual, completely different individuals. So that can happens. 571 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 9: It's a word. The world, the underworld particularly is very 572 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 9: dynamic and how you can get your hands onto a 573 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 9: weapon and listen, going back, I got to tell you, Nancy, 574 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 9: looking at presentation with this weapon, there's been a lot 575 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 9: of haymade over the idea that this guy is so 576 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 9: very amateurish. One of the things that really strikes me 577 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 9: about this and that I'm glad they're showing that image. 578 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 9: No one in their right mind would walk around displaying 579 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 9: a weapon like that that has a background and caring 580 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 9: concealed all right, I think, and I don't want to 581 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,959 Speaker 9: get into the docks area here, but I think that 582 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 9: that is an intimidation factor. You show up, you have 583 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 9: that weapon, that's where it can actually be seen, and 584 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 9: you can present with it. And lord knows this, it's 585 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 9: really dark, but you know she comes to that door 586 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 9: and he presents with that weapon. Even if he doesn't 587 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 9: draw it out of the holster, she can visualize it, 588 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 9: particularly if that light goes on in the porch. So 589 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 9: I think it's positioned that way so that he can 590 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 9: actually intimidate somebody with it, as opposed to concealing it 591 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 9: having it under that rather robust clothing he's got there. 592 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie, Missing Day seventeen. How in the hay has 593 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: this guy and his cohorts managed to outsmart the Feds? 594 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 2: Are they getting close? Word is yes, but is that real? 595 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 2: Straight back out to Dave Mac joining us. Dave Mac. 596 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 2: We keep hearing in the headlines that will there be 597 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 2: a DNA match to what? From what? 598 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 9: To what? 599 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,720 Speaker 1: I assume they're talking about the one glove, although now 600 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: there are reports that a second matching glove has been 601 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: found under a bridge. 602 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 2: I got to confirm that. 603 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: I don't know that yet, but let's assume they're talking 604 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: about the one glove that's seemingly of the sixteen. 605 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: What a messed up crime scene. 606 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: That said, the one glove that seemingly matches the gloves 607 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: the Purp is wearing on the front porch, match it 608 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: to what DNA found in the home. I pray to 609 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: codis to. 610 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 6: What yeah, to the DNA found in the home. 611 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 4: Granted, you know a coda's match only works if the 612 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 4: Purp is in the system. So what they really want 613 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 4: to Donancy is they want to match up the DNA 614 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 4: on the glove found about a mile and a half 615 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 4: from Nancy Guthrie's home to whatever DNA they have found 616 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 4: inside the home. We know it's unrelated to anyone in 617 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 4: the family that law enforcement found DNA in the home. 618 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 4: So matching up that DNA inside the Guthrie home to 619 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 4: the glove found a mile and a half from the 620 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 4: Guthrie home, that's your match. 621 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 6: That's what they're looking for. 622 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 2: Guys. 623 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: Here is a video released by Savannah that Savannah and 624 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: her sister and with their mom many many years ago, 625 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: and that is underscoring emphasizing that Nancy Guthrie is loved 626 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: and beloved and has a family, grandchildren, and I can 627 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: only pray that the Purps are watching this And I 628 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 1: say purp because I find it really hard to believe 629 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: that the ding dong on the front porch is the 630 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: same one that wrote the ransom notes if they are connected. 631 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: I also even if they're not connected, I find it 632 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: hard to believe that the ding dong on the front 633 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: porch has managed to elude law enforcement for this long. Okay, 634 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 1: let's talk about d N A deoxaribo nucleic acid. As 635 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: doctor Jerlyn Utter just reminded us in the break Joe 636 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, CODIS is not the only way to go. 637 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: The combined DNA like really warehouse is the DNA data bank. 638 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: And if you've got a record, as they fell, and 639 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: in some of the states of misdemeanors you've given your DNA, 640 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 1: there's DNA there from crime scenes, from unsolved crime scenes 641 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: and more. 642 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: But what about if you have a relative in CODIS? 643 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 9: That would work too, Yeah, yeah, it certainly would. And 644 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 9: sometimes you know, these familiar circles, uh you know, will 645 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 9: have deposition it scene. But here's here's some interesting statistics 646 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 9: with CODIS itself, and I'm talking very broadly here. Across 647 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 9: the US, there's roughly nineteen million offender profiles in there. 648 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 9: But Nancy, listen, narrow this down a little bit. When 649 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 9: you think about Arizona itself. Right now, in Arizona per 650 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 9: codis and this is coming from the FEDS, there are 651 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 9: four hundred and thirty four thousand roughly offenders that are 652 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 9: registered in Arizona that have the source out of Arizona 653 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 9: ties back. You've got seven labs that are participating in 654 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 9: Arizona that send this information off and it's deposited with 655 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 9: the FBI, the people that manage CODIS. Within that also, 656 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 9: there's thirty seven thousand just in Arizona loan of forensic profiles, 657 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 9: which means you don't have a name associated with it 658 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 9: that's been DNA that has been collected at scenes, it's 659 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 9: never been positively identified. So that's a very broad, broad 660 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 9: spectrum that you're working on. My contention has been, My 661 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 9: contention has been is that if you go to a 662 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,240 Speaker 9: private lab, if you're going to go with a private lab, 663 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 9: there's one in particular have in mind with that has 664 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 9: an agreement with the FBI. And again this was fouled 665 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 9: up from the beginning. In my humble opinion, you can 666 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 9: actually do investigative genetic genealogy now there are open source databases, 667 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 9: and you can connect people through their cousins way down 668 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 9: the line. That's how they call it coburger. You think 669 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 9: about that connected through the father, going back through his line. 670 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 9: So anybody that's made that has made a contribution into 671 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 9: any of these databases that say, for instance, authorm lab 672 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 9: has access to which are open there's your bing goo. 673 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: Okay, you said authorm lab has access to certain databases. 674 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: You're not talking about Private Genetic Genealogy Line twenty three 675 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: and me or ancestry dot com. What specifically are the 676 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,240 Speaker 1: databases to what you are referring. 677 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 9: I can't name them off the top of my head, 678 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 9: but there are three that they go to that are 679 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 9: open access. 680 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:12,439 Speaker 7: I'm there. 681 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 2: One is jed match that's public. 682 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 9: It is it is. Thanks for reminding me of that. 683 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 9: But yeah, you're absolutely right. And they're having grand success 684 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 9: with getting bodies identified that have been unidentified for years 685 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 9: and years, and that's through familial DNA that they can 686 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 9: connect back. So yeah, I mean, listen, I hope it 687 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 9: works out with codis, I really do, godspeed. I hope 688 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 9: it works out, but there's a high probability you have 689 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 9: to factor this in that it might come back negative. 690 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 9: I hope it doesn't, I truly do, But if it does, 691 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 9: I think that going down the IgG path relative to 692 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 9: investigative genetic genealogy is going to be the way to 693 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 9: go here because you're going to come back with something. 694 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 9: And I don't know, it just feels like the scene 695 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 9: is so just organized at this If. 696 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 2: In fact, that glove is the one or one of 697 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 2: the one's warned, how many other gloves have they filed? 698 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 1: Gibbons, Yeah, sixteen, but many of them were the wrong color, 699 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: the wrong texture, wouldn't even look like a woolen mitten 700 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: for Pete's sake. And we saw the defense had a 701 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,879 Speaker 1: heyday with a single glove found in the parking lot 702 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: at the Brian Coberger scene. So there's no telling what 703 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: a defense could do with sixteen gloves that had been 704 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,240 Speaker 1: disposed of by searchers, by yard workers, by road crews, 705 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: you name it. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, brav at 706 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: S Gibbons at this juncture, what should be happening. 707 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 5: Well, I think what we're seeing in what we hope 708 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 5: happens is once these CODIS results come back, that if 709 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 5: there is anybody connected, even on the Giffrey, you know, 710 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 5: cousin of a lawn care provider to Nancy Guthrie. That 711 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 5: law enforcement is able to quickly jump on those leads. 712 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 5: But what's happening now is they're running down every single 713 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 5: high priority lead that they're getting. 714 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: As we go to air tonight, another one hundred thousand 715 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: dollars reward. 716 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,720 Speaker 2: Has been announced by a personal injury lawyer, Michael Huppy. 717 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: To you, Dave Mack, crime Story's investigative reporter. 718 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,359 Speaker 4: What do you know, Well, Huppy actually is in he 719 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 4: works with crime Stoppers in Wisconsin. He's head of all 720 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,760 Speaker 4: of that, and this reward of one hundred thousand dollars 721 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 4: is being added on top of other rewards being offered, 722 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 4: and Michael Huppy is the attorney offering that via crime 723 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 4: Stoppers and their anonymous way of reporting these things. Huppy 724 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 4: said he believes that it is the anonymous aspect of 725 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 4: crime Stoppers that will allow the perpetrators to actually somebody 726 00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 4: close to them to come forward. 727 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: So that's two hundred thousand dollars now on the table 728 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: for information leading to finding Nancy Guthrie. 729 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 2: Wow to you. 730 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: Eric fattis joining us a founder founder of the law 731 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 1: offices of Eric Fattus. Why do you believe the sheriff 732 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:24,320 Speaker 1: Nanos made the move to publicly clear the entire family 733 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: and their spouses, the children, the three siblings, and their spouses. 734 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 8: You know, I think there is a ton of public 735 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 8: pressure on this sheriff, not only in that community, but 736 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 8: nationally perhaps internationally. You know, they're looking for developments. 737 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 2: What are y'all doing? 738 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 8: What progress have you made? And so I think that 739 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 8: that is probably the motivation behind this announcement. And it 740 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 8: also perhaps shows that the investigation has enough information to 741 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 8: rule out these folks, whether that's on a timeline basis, 742 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 8: on a forensic basis, or some other basis. And so 743 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 8: it's sort of telegraphs to the world, Hey, we're trying 744 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 8: to make progress, and we believe we are, and we 745 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 8: believe we can exclude the family as potential perpetrators. 746 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,800 Speaker 1: And to you, wyf Is Gibbons, why do you believe 747 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: Nanos took the unusual route of publicly stating the family, 748 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:21,399 Speaker 1: the children, Cameron, Annie and Savannah, and their spouses are 749 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: not suspects, that they've been cleared. 750 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, he's under an incredible amount of media and political 751 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 5: pressure here and I have to say that that's the 752 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 5: reason why. That's a completely unorthodox thing to hear in 753 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 5: any investigation. Why because you know, until the investigations complete, 754 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 5: nobody should be ruled out right. We've seen it too 755 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 5: many times where investigations change courses, one new bit of 756 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 5: information comes in and everything can change. So this is 757 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,319 Speaker 5: something that you very very rarely see law enforcement to do. 758 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 5: So I have to ascribe it to political, political and 759 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:04,840 Speaker 5: media pressure. 760 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: Apparently the missive to TMZ, the last one there have 761 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: now been four, suggests that Nancy Guthrie has been taken 762 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,840 Speaker 1: across the Mexican border. Tell me about the last letter, well, 763 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: not really a letter missive to TMZ, Dave mac Well. 764 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 4: Again it's from the same person who claims that they 765 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,439 Speaker 4: weren't going to send anymore because their feelings got hurt. 766 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 4: This person is demanding the fifty thousand dollars bitcoin before 767 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 4: they'll give up any information and suggesting that it that 768 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,760 Speaker 4: the crime has now moved across the border, saying international. 769 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 4: In the previous missive to TMZ, Harvey Levin and the 770 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 4: staff at TMZ working with law enforcement, issued a challenge 771 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 4: to the individual, saying, look. 772 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 6: You give us the info. It's all in public. 773 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 4: We're doing this on the air, so you have a 774 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 4: public record of you offering up this information. If it 775 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 4: turns out that you're correct, you'll get your money. So 776 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,880 Speaker 4: that's where it was left. And again this is the 777 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,439 Speaker 4: same individual Nancy who has claimed to know who took 778 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 4: Nancy Guthrie and where they are keeping her right now, 779 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 4: and God is feelings certain said he wasn't going to 780 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,960 Speaker 4: send any more emails, but of course he did. 781 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,320 Speaker 1: If you know or believe you know anything regarding the 782 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,879 Speaker 1: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, dial one eight hundred two two 783 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: five five three two four repeat eight hundred two two 784 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: five five three two four, or if you wish to 785 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven four 786 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 1: six three five two zero eight eight two seven four six. 787 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,760 Speaker 1: We remember American hero Officer Michael Moore Garland, p D, Texas, 788 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,040 Speaker 1: just thirty two, shot in the line of duty, serving 789 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 1: ten years on law enforcement, leaving behind his wife turned 790 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,720 Speaker 1: widow and three children without a father. American hero Officer 791 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 1: Michael Moore Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend,