1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: I'm luck and load. The Michael Verie Show is on 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: the air. 3 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 2: It's interesting to be in the course of my life 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 2: different things that happened that I notice how we deal 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: with the concept of accountability and consequences and. 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: How they are extolled or forgotten in the common conversation 7 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: and in the popular culture. It's really interesting phenomenon to 8 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: me because we have a tendency to ignore the idea. 9 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: Do whatever you want, damn the consequence. Do what makes 10 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: you feel good, do what gives you gratification. I think 11 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: gratification is a better word than has this. Happiness is 12 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: a silly word. Nobody's walking around and happy. We're all 13 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: happy all the time. Test happy, you'd get bored being happy? 14 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: You would. Jordan Peterson has really done some important work 15 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: on this subject. He's not the first, but he's the 16 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: first to take it to such a big audience. And 17 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: the idea that he has that he has really popularized 18 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: is that the pursuit of happiness per se is a 19 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: fool's errand you never actually achieve happiness. Many people are 20 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: watching pop culture and they think the Kardashians are happy, 21 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: or Diddy Epstein is happy, or Lizo or whoever else, 22 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: and then they're shocked to find out that person isn't 23 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: happy in this sense that they believe they would be happy. 24 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: This euphoria overcoming you at all times warm sensation and 25 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: believe it or not, even though that person is their hero. 26 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: That person is they would sell off their kidney to 27 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: get to go to a concert, to just be part 28 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: of a screaming, teeming, massive people cheering that that person 29 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: is singing the song they've already heard of them, but 30 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: in the same zip code as them. They're also delighted 31 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: to learn that those people are usually miserable because they 32 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: have been on a journey to the destination of happiness, 33 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: and as it turns out, happiness is not neverland. So 34 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: that makes him feel good because I may not be happy, 35 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: but it turns out that person is supposed to be happy. 36 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: He's supposed to be happy, and he's not happy. So 37 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: that makes me feel better because I thought he was 38 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: just sitting over here just being happy all the time. 39 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: But what Jordan Peterson has done I think groundbreaking work 40 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: in terms of taking it to the masses. As I say, 41 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: it's not the first to come up with this, I 42 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: understand this. The idea that happiness is not the pursuit 43 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: of man should not be the pursuit of man. It's 44 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: a throwaway term. It's a simplistic term that has become 45 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: a catch all. In economics, we use the term utility. 46 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: It gives some people utility to do this or that. 47 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: Doesn't mean they're smiling necessarily. If you hate pedophiles and 48 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: you get to be the executioner of pedophiles, doesn't make 49 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: you happy to be the executioner, but it gives you utility. 50 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: And Rick Warren in twenty twelve, I think it was 51 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: wrote The Purpose Driven Life, which I actually think it 52 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: was an important book at the time. The idea of 53 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: finding per purpose in your life and what you do, 54 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: living purposefully, intentionally, knowing why you're here and what you're doing. 55 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: And I've come to learn that this is why some people, 56 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: I'm going to use that term, are very happy doing 57 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: a job when they don't need to work anymore. You know. 58 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: The Walmart reader kind of went away. I loved the 59 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: Walmart read. I loved the Walmart Reader because so many 60 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: of the Walmart readers didn't need to work. They didn't 61 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: turn the money down because that's what they used to 62 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: buy a cup of coffee while they were there. They 63 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: arrived early, they stayed late, they stayed afterwards. They took 64 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: their penny off and hung around, or kept their penny on. 65 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: They loved to greet people. What a brilliant idea. You 66 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:59,559 Speaker 1: take this cold, soulless warehouse full of junk that people 67 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: are coming into to grab, most of which they could 68 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: do without, and you put a human face on it, 69 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: A real human face. Not a kid on a phone, 70 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: not not somebody disinterested, not somebody checking sports scores or 71 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: texting their buddies or taking Peter Picks. A real human 72 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: being in comfortable shoes, welcoming people into your cold, soulless warehouse. 73 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: It was a brilliant a strike, a stroke of brilliance. 74 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: It was a brilliant move. I love everything about it. 75 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: But what it spoke to in me, which I don't 76 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: understand too many years later, was the idea of having purpose. 77 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: I have known so many people over the years who 78 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: cannot wait to retire, and the moment they retire, they 79 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: have the world by the tail, and within a couple 80 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: of days they realize they've lost their purpose. Even if 81 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: we're was not their purpose, because they're pulling a paycheck, 82 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: punch and a clock. They they they've lost their routine, 83 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: and in that routine was comfort. You may not like 84 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: your job per se, the actual job, but we put 85 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: some We put some dressing on it. Right. We put 86 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: a writ on the way to your job, you may 87 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: stop and get a kalachi, and you really like talking 88 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: to the people there at lunch. You might enjoy walking 89 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: across the street and talk on the way home. You 90 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: might come on. 91 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 3: Laris was just officially. 92 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: Endorsed by IRS Agency. Believe the Michael Barry Show. I'd 93 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: rather not have that endorsement. We came across something called 94 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,559 Speaker 1: who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a future where degrees don't matter. 95 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: The author is Kathleen Dulaski or Delaski. Ramon, do you 96 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: want me to first try Dulaski and then she corrects 97 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: me as Delaski? Or do you want to do Delaski 98 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: and she corrects me as Dlaski Dlaski. Okay, We're going 99 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: with Delaski till she corrects us. And I'll be honest, 100 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: we don't get this excited up. We don't do many guests. 101 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: You folks know that, But I was really really interested 102 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: in this guest because I love when people think differently, 103 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: whether that's the COVID shot or anything else. Kathleen, is 104 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: it d'laski or Dulaski. 105 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: D'laski, Oh, we. 106 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: Got it, okay, Polish, I presume. 107 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 3: The name is yeah. I mean, we've been here a 108 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 3: long time, so who knows. 109 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: Well, it'd be okay if you were Polish. I like Poles. 110 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: One of my good friends is Polish. Yeah, and the 111 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: polls behave very admirably during World War Two. The Polish 112 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: underground and the cracking of Enigma is the greatest story 113 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: of World War Two never told. But I won't bother 114 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: you with all that, so I risk you background. You 115 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: are an education and workforce designer and a futurist. That's 116 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: always interesting. I'm not one, but I'm fascinated by people 117 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 1: who are. You founded the Education Design Lab in twenty 118 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: thirteen to help well, we'll get into that, and for 119 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: a decade you were CEO of this lab. And you're 120 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: obviously a person who spends a lot of time thinking 121 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: on in the aggregate about the big picture of how 122 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: we I don't believe that that that college is for 123 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: the purpose of getting a degree, or even as much 124 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: as learning as developing and growing. The old the old 125 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Yates line that that education is not filling a bucket 126 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: but lighting a fire. I am a big believer in 127 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: the academy as it once existed. But I'm going to 128 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: turn the show over now to you with a few 129 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: basic questions. Why have you written this book? What was 130 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: the goal in asking the question? Who needs college anymore? 131 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: And then you sort of answer that with imagining a 132 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: future where degrees don't matter. I'm going to let you 133 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: have the rest of the floor for the rest of 134 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: the segment. 135 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, and thanks for having me. I love 136 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 3: your story, Michael, It's really it's really compelling about your 137 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: family and how you know, people who learn, who love 138 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 3: to learn, should will still have the opportunity to go 139 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 3: to college to go get it for your degree. I mean, 140 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 3: it's the degree is not going away. But I wrote 141 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 3: the book really to try to highlight the fact that 142 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 3: that model, the four year degree model, which has basically, 143 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 3: you know, overtaken all narratives about how how you get 144 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 3: your you know, find your way to the American dream. 145 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 3: It's like the only narrative right now, and yet yet 146 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 3: the model only serves a minority of American adults. You know, 147 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 3: only thirty eight percent of people have a four year degree. 148 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 3: So we need to stop treating it as the only 149 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 3: aspirational brand, you know, to get to success, because you know, 150 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: we see what's happening with the resentment building and the 151 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: economic divide. You know, some people are calling it the 152 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 3: diploma divide. You know, we have other models that show promise, 153 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 3: like apprenticeships and like short term certificates and certifications and 154 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: doop camps, but they can't scale because they don't qualify 155 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 3: for the funding and the prestige that you know that 156 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 3: right now really only colleges enjoy. And so that's why 157 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 3: I wrote the book. I mean, I have my own 158 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: personal story with my own children. The model didn't really 159 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 3: work for either of them, and so I was kind 160 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 3: of radicalized, even though I live in an area where 161 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 3: everybody goes to college and you're embarrassed, you know, when 162 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: you're at a softball game and you know you're you're 163 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 3: kind of like under your breast in my kids not going, 164 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 3: and so you know that that kind of got me 165 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 3: going even in the first place to start this thing 166 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 3: called the Education Design Lab, which is actually working with 167 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 3: colleges to try to, you know, disrupt themselves and reinvent 168 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 3: their own models. So we can talk about that. 169 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: Let's talk first about your story. We've got two minutes 170 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: left in this segment. So I always like to know 171 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: where someone's angle is and all this. I feel like Nixon, 172 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: Nixon going to China. I can say that college doesn't 173 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: matter because I spent a lot of time in college. 174 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: I think it's harder if someone didn't, because then there 175 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: may be defensive about it. What was your story? 176 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: Well, I am not the right messenger to be able 177 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 3: to stand it and say you don't need college, because 178 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 3: I like you. I was lucky enough to, you know, 179 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: go to both have an undergrad and I did a 180 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 3: master's degree, and I actually, in research in the book 181 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: went back to my ancestor, who my great grandfather time seven, 182 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 3: was one of the first graduates of you know that 183 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 3: university that's now under attack, but is the first university, Harvard. 184 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: He was the son of an indentured servant, an immigrant, 185 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 3: and he was able to somehow get into Harvard and 186 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 3: pulled his family up to a position of prominence in 187 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 3: colonial America. This is in sixteen seventy three in one generation. 188 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: And so I start this. I start the book out 189 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: there to kind of demonstrate how college kind of took 190 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 3: a foothold in the lore of, you know, how to 191 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 3: succeed in America right from the very beginning. So you know, 192 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 3: my story is that college was always available to me 193 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 3: and my forefathers, and yet now I feel like we're 194 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 3: in the family like some kids are choosing not to go, 195 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: including one of my daughters. One wanted to go, you know, 196 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: had neurodivergent issues and ended up getting through it, but 197 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 3: it was a complete, you know, slog and difficult situation, 198 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: and they, you know, they helped me see that there 199 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 3: are other ways to succeed number one, but also that 200 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 3: college needs to you know, we need to redesign it 201 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 3: to meet the needs of other folks and have different versions, 202 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: Like the degree should just be one version of what 203 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 3: colleges offered. Why can't they offer pership? 204 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: You are speaking my language. I love that you've undertaken 205 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: this project because somewhere I think that what you're saying 206 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: is is very visionary. One moment our guest is Kathleen Dulaski. 207 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: The book is who needs college Anymore? Who needs college? 208 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 3: Anymore. 209 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: The government made money off of it. We didn't get 210 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: nothing the hard time. To Michael Berry show, it's a day, 211 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: I say it's a day. I say it's a day. 212 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: I say it's a day. Nath Lee Dlaski is our guest. 213 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: He's the author of Who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a 214 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: future where degrees don't matter. And I would encourage everyone 215 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: who is listening to take a step back and ask 216 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: mak yourself this question. What should college be if you're 217 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: going to spend over over one hundred thousand dollars, which 218 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: is crazy, what should be the result at the end. 219 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: Many people view it as I'll have a ticket to 220 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: punch to get a job. I think that's sad, but okay, 221 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: And that's because corporations created this. You have to have 222 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: a degree to go to work here, which was really 223 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: just a way of saying, I want to pick the 224 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: white kids, not the black kids, but I don't know 225 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: how to do that. And since the white kids go 226 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: to college and the black kids don't, that'd be a 227 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: good way to separate. Then the black kids went to 228 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: college and they said, oh, what do we do now? 229 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: Well about that time, you had DEI. So it didn't matter. 230 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: But I honestly think that that was the history behind that. 231 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: And you folks know that I'm not one to claim 232 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: very much as racism, but I think that was racism. 233 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: It was also a way to create a class distinction 234 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: because richer kids went to college and poorer kids didn't. 235 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: How do we just get the kids who know which 236 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: fort to use? 237 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: Well? 238 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: Will require a college degree? Or should it be an 239 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: opportunity to learn and you will come out of there 240 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: and you will be very smart. Well, nobody really believes 241 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: that's happening. The only people who really have to go 242 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: to college. Or if you want to be an engineer, 243 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: a doctor, a lawyer, an architect, someone who requires this certificate. 244 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: So that's really no different than a plumber and electrician, 245 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: just costs a whole lot more and you have toga parties. 246 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: But what should be the point of this thing? I mean, 247 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: this is a major part of our economy, and so 248 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: I would encourage you to open your mind as we 249 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: Kathleen and I have this conversation and join in yourself. 250 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: What should be the purpose of all this? Should it 251 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: just be the buildings that are attached to the football 252 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: team and basketball team that we root for because that 253 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: seems sort of silly, doesn't it. So Kathleen, let me 254 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: let me fast forward from home. Who needs college anymore? 255 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: What is give me the four minute ideal? Kathleen is king, 256 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: what do you create as a college replacement? 257 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 3: Well, it's I don't want to replace college. I want 258 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 3: to a college an institution to have an umbrella of 259 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 3: let's call them products, right, services that they offer a 260 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 3: continuum of learners and not just the eighteen year olds 261 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 3: who shows up looking for adultification services. Right. They need 262 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 3: they need that maturation process probably more than anything. They 263 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 3: need to learn how to go through the gauntlet, how 264 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 3: to separate back from fiction, how to you know, organize 265 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 3: their thoughts, how to get along with people that they 266 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 3: might not have known existed. Right, So they need a 267 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 3: kind of a boot camp for life and growing up. 268 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: But then many other kind A lot of the people 269 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 3: who aren't being served by college are currently are you 270 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 3: people who are older, or people who are single moms, 271 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,119 Speaker 3: or they're returning vets, or they're in the neurodivergent spectrum. 272 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 3: And you know, college was not designed to serve them, 273 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 3: but it can other programs serve them. But those other 274 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: programs don't have access to the same funding, and that's 275 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 3: what's become you know, kind of very skewed in the system, right. 276 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 3: It's like it's like it makes you realize that it 277 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 3: really is an elitist funding model that we need to, 278 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 3: you know, we needed to. I don't want to say 279 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: take apart because I still want, we still need, you know, 280 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 3: people to go all the way through to get a 281 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 3: PhD and be be a cancer researchers. You know, I 282 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 3: don't want to stop that. I don't want to stop engineers, 283 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 3: civil engineers from getting degrees to build bridget We need that. 284 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: But you know, the sixty two percent who are being 285 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: left behind, which is most of us, let's face it, 286 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 3: most most Americans. They need they need you know, they 287 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: need college too, Like why aren't there? Why do they 288 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 3: have to kind of figure out how to work through 289 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: a maze and end up often trying and failing to 290 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 3: do this college thing. I mean, so, so I didn't 291 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 3: answer your question, which is what you know, what if 292 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 3: I were king, what would I do? What? What I 293 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: advocated in the book is what I call a step 294 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: ladder approach, and some community colleges in particular are starting 295 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 3: to do this and we're actually working with a number 296 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 3: in Texas where they you know, you have a short 297 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: stack called a micro pathway where you you know, you 298 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 3: get you basically we learn the skills through a couple 299 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 3: of uh, you know, like a boot camp basically for 300 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 3: one job role, right, and then you can go out 301 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 3: and get that job role, and then you can stack 302 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 3: to the next, you know, the next income level to 303 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 3: build your earnings power, you know, often while you're in 304 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 3: that job. So it's the idea that you are earning 305 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 3: and learning and scaffolding up to along your career path 306 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 3: and getting the learning you need along the way. And 307 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 3: there's two reasons why why why we're starting to move 308 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 3: to this and we have to move to this model 309 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,239 Speaker 3: for higher education. Number one is people can't afford one 310 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars, which is the average cost of a 311 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 3: college degree these days. Four your degree. People can't afford that, right, 312 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 3: So there's opting out and they're sitting on the sidelines. 313 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 3: The second reason is AI right, I mean, and technology, 314 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 3: like the things that you spend those four years learning 315 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 3: are not necessarily useful to the employer when you get 316 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 3: out the door and want to you know, want to 317 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: line up and apply for that job. So we need, 318 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: you know, we need shorter term learning because you need 319 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: to be agile and you need to learn the latest right, 320 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,959 Speaker 3: the latest software, the latest cyber thing, the latest technology 321 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 3: in your healthcare job. It's changing so fast that the 322 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 3: four year model is feeling kind of antique. 323 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just so different. You know, we have in 324 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: the state of Texas a plumbing crisis or plumber crisis 325 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: where plumbers are phasing out and nobody's coming in and 326 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: it it requires certification, it requires time on the job. 327 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: You know, you go from journeyman and all you know, 328 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: from apprentice to journeymen and all this, and we don't 329 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: have the master plumbers to a lesser degree, but still 330 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: a problem is true of electricians. And these are things 331 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: that AI is not going to replace overnight, and so 332 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: we've got probably very secure jobs. So what's happening is 333 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: the guy who started as a plumber made pretty good 334 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: money and built up a plumbing company with twenty plumbers, 335 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: and he's making over a million dollars a year and 336 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: he has no uh, he has a plumbing license but 337 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: no college degree, and so he sends his kid to 338 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: college to get a psychology degree, and he's he's folding 339 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: shirts at abricronomy and Fitch and and our economy is 340 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: our needs aren't being met, and that kid's future is 341 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: not being set very well because God knows, Daddy doesn't 342 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: want him to get his hands dirty. And I think 343 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: that's a real problem. Whereas the people who do go 344 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: for a vocational license, that should be a very different experience. 345 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: We don't need to go and spend a fortune for 346 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: fraternities and toga parties when what you really want to 347 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: do is get a life skill and get to work. 348 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: And so I think everybody's every journey, I hate the word, 349 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: but should be different and a different approach depending on 350 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: kind of what you're going to do. I'm fascinated by this, 351 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: this study you have. You have really piqued an interest 352 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: in me in something I think our society is getting wrong, 353 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: and especially a one size fits all because that that's 354 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: that's not the answer to this. When do did you 355 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: read who Needs College? Anymore? I want say, when did 356 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: you write? 357 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 3: I mean, I just finished it like last summer, and 358 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 3: then you know it takes like six months for the 359 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 3: publisher to get it put it together. So it came 360 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: out in February, okay this year. 361 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: And worth noting for those of you who are interested 362 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: in this, especially because you have children who are in 363 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: high school and you're trying to consider what to do 364 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: for your c student who's not really interested in school 365 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: per se, but you want a good future for them. 366 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: The website is who Needs College Anymore? Dot org rg 367 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: who Needs College Anymore? Dot org And with that we 368 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: will continue our conversation with Kathleen Dulaski. The website is 369 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: who Needs College Anymore? Dot org. And I encourage every 370 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: family to have this conversation as your kids are growing up. 371 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,959 Speaker 1: Don't just go to college because you don't know what 372 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: else to do. That's no reason to do in the military, 373 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: there's no reason to go to college. That's no reason 374 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: to do anything else. Give thought to this, what do 375 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: I want to be when I grow up? Who do 376 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: I want to be when I grow up? And not 377 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: just what job or how much money I want to make, 378 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: but what field of study? What passion do you have? 379 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: Anyway more? Coming up here? Get people to understand giving 380 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: information is not Nick Kat's land Delasteth as our guest. 381 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: She's the author of Who Needs College Anymore? Imagining a 382 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: future where degrees won't matter. Imagine a society giving the 383 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: power to confer upon an individual the ticket to punch 384 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: to riches. You would be giving all the power to 385 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: this unique institution, And a lot of people think that's 386 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: what's happening, and it's not. I've known two billionaires very 387 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: closely in my life, neither of whom went to college. 388 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: I've known other billionaires who didn't graduate from college. So 389 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: if riches are your goal, getting a job and working 390 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: within a corporate entity is not always the best way 391 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: to go about that. But there's so much more in 392 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: life than how much you make. It's what you do 393 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: and finding a passion for that. Kathleen, how has your 394 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: work been received because everybody with a college degree thinks 395 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: you're devaluing their college degree. 396 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. I think at the time that 397 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 3: I chose to raya, which is pretty much now. It 398 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 3: is a kind of wake up call moment. I feel 399 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: like ever since the recession from twenty ten college attendance, 400 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: college enrollment has been dropping. So community college has lost 401 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 3: a third of their enrollment in the last decade, and 402 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 3: this was even happening well before COVID and then degrees. 403 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 3: I mean, people are not The number of people signing 404 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 3: up for degrees is dropping, and the number of people 405 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: signing up to do like certificates and other form short 406 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 3: forms of training is going up. And so you know, 407 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 3: I don't. I don't. Colleges are receiving my message pretty 408 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 3: well because they know they have to change, and they're 409 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 3: like going right to the chapter that's like how can 410 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 3: colleges adapt? And they're looking at you know, the models 411 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 3: that I show there are really around. Okay, if you 412 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 3: if you want to show that you still have an 413 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 3: ROI or a return on investment for your students, you 414 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 3: really need to focus more on helping them, you know, 415 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 3: land them at the front door of their first job, 416 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 3: because as you just said a few minutes ago, that's 417 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 3: exactly what you know, That's what families are expecting to 418 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 3: happen when their kid graduates, is is they you know, 419 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 3: they're going to get a job. And so you know, 420 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 3: how can we connect those dots better? And so I think, 421 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 3: you know, you see a lot of colleges really trying 422 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 3: to start to work on that, and Texas in particular, 423 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 3: you know, I was just at the association with all 424 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 3: the community colleges the annual meeting in Nashville, and some 425 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 3: Texas colleges were presenting and they're explaining that you know, 426 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 3: you've got you've got a new law in Texas called 427 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 3: HB eight, which which is now uh, colleges are being 428 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 3: judged and they're getting funding based upon the outcomes that 429 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 3: they deliver. And by that they mean what kind of 430 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: income are students making after they graduate. That's actually being 431 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 3: tracked and Texas is the first state to do this, 432 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 3: and everybody else is watching this. I mean, the other 433 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: states are kind of doing versions of them, but they're 434 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 3: doing the most intense version and it's been really interesting 435 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 3: to watch. 436 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: That is uh wow. You know, these are things that 437 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: I don't I don't think are talked about widely. There 438 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: is so much. I have a son who's a junior, 439 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: so he will begin the college application process in the fall, 440 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: and I've told both of my sons in the zone. 441 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: I'm in the zone. I have a son who's the 442 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: freshman's University of Texas, and I've told them, you can 443 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: do the military, you can do vocational school, you can 444 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: go to college, you can take a gap year and 445 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: travel and work around the world as you do it. 446 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: It's totally up to you. And both have thus far 447 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: chosen college as their route, and I think part of 448 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: that is, yeah, that's what their friends are doing. Is 449 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: a comfort to that and all that. Just like with 450 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: careers and your life partner choice, I think it's important 451 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: that you keep an open mind and you look at 452 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, you don't just marry the girl who lives 453 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: next door or was your high school sweetheart. That may work. 454 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: You don't just do the job that your dad did. 455 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: That may work, but you know these are going to 456 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: have a big impact on your life and your happiness. 457 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: So be willing to look at at least know what 458 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: all is out there, right, and don't be limited to 459 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: the kids who did bring your dad to work day, 460 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: because there's a lot there're a lot more careers out there. Yeah. 461 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 3: Well, I just wanted to mention I want to with 462 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: your son being a University of Texas. So another really 463 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 3: interesting pilot that I feature in the book is the 464 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: University of Texas. The whole system is starting to incorporate 465 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 3: the like industry certifications into the degrees, and they're again 466 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 3: they're doing that. You're doing the largest pilot in the 467 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 3: country right now and everybody's watching it, and so you're 468 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 3: you know, they're getting like a Google It certificate or 469 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 3: a cybersecurity certificate. You can get those without going to college. 470 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 3: But at least the college are just saying, wow, we 471 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 3: need to add this value. Yes, where you know, learners 472 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 3: can see the connection between you know, what Google is 473 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 3: going to be asking for in the job interview and 474 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: what we we're delivering in the classroom. So they're actually 475 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 3: baking in the certificates that have been created by by companies, 476 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 3: which I think is a great. 477 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: Step in the right And let's talk about why they 478 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: didn't do it. It wasn't that they lacked the expertise 479 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: or the space, or are the students with the interest 480 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: in it. It was beneath the university. We are the academy, 481 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: we are the Ivory Tower. We don't get down into certificates. 482 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: And I think there is now a sort of hey, guys, 483 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: there's got to be some value to this. I'm spending 484 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: all this money and I need to be able to 485 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: have certificates when we get out of this to do 486 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: to perform tasks. Especially because you mentioned Google. Google goes 487 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: out of their way to hire young people who did 488 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: not go to college, and I think that's a wake 489 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: up call to the universities. 490 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,239 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, they have been good about them. 491 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: What is what is the takeaway that people have the 492 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: website is who needs college anymore? Dot org to your 493 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: theories and ideas that you get the most. What is 494 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: the thing that someone says, I hadn't thought about that? 495 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, everybody's heard about apprenticeships and 496 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: boot camps, but I don't think people realize that we 497 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 3: are suppressing those models by the way that we put 498 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,239 Speaker 3: all of our all of our funding eggs in the 499 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 3: in the in the you know sort of college and 500 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 3: college tuition basket, you know, through federal financial aid. You know, 501 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: there's like fifty to one is the expenditures on college, 502 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 3: you know, nationally versus supporting college versus apprenticeships. So, you know, 503 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 3: I don't want to suggest to your listeners that they 504 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 3: could just walk out, their kid could walk out and 505 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 3: get a cool apprenticeship, because apprenticeships are are you know, 506 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 3: have long been available in areas light construction, electrician, HVAC, 507 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 3: but they're now becoming available in what you might call 508 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 3: the white collar jobs, but not at scale yet. And 509 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 3: so I don't want to suggest that these are like 510 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 3: ready to go models. We need to push for them, 511 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 3: and states are actually taking the lead right now on that. 512 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 3: And so you can your listeners could go to apprenticeship 513 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 3: dot gov and see, you know, where what apprenticeships are available, 514 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,959 Speaker 3: because I mean, that's a great model, and colleges are 515 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 3: now even trying to to bring them in, you know, 516 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 3: to kind of become the the you know, the facilitators 517 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 3: for apprenticeships. And that's cool, you'll see more of that, 518 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 3: but you know, probably not what your kids are in school. 519 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: So I don't want to suggest that like these other 520 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 3: models are like easily available to kids right now. They're not, 521 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 3: but we need to make them. 522 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 1: So I have I'm fortunate to have contacts and people 523 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: that I could reach out to, but I have had 524 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: my kids doing what I would consider apprenticeships, internships, whatever 525 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: you want to call it, and I break down the 526 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: formal barriers and I say, I just want them to 527 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: hang out with you for some period of time a week, 528 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: a month, and literally watch you take phone calls, watch 529 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: how you spend your day, watch how you spend your hours, 530 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: once whore you go to lunch with, and you learn 531 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: so much. I learned at the foot of mentors that 532 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: I had who were much older than me, who were 533 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: willing to invest in me. And I'm a big believer 534 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: in that model. I want to say, because I'm up 535 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: against the clock. You also mentioned self instruction using YouTube. 536 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: I think of how many kids are doing homeschooling now, 537 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: and they're doing it all online. And you know, you're 538 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: always told you have to go to school to be socialized. 539 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: These kids are smart, they're well rounded. I'm thoroughly impressed 540 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: by him. I love what you're doing. Kathleen Dlaski. Let's 541 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: have you on again. The author of Who Needs College Anymore? 542 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: The website is who Needs College Anymore dot org. Thank 543 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: you for your time. 544 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 3: Thank you, Michael