Speaker 1: I was thinking about this a lot at the GRAMM News.
Speaker 1: I don't have any industry connections. There are all things
Speaker 1: that I've built of just like being an industrious person.
Speaker 2: I guess hello and welcome back to Midnight Chats, a
Speaker 2: podcast of informal interviews with musicians that we love, posted
Speaker 2: weekly at midnight to suit these rather informal conversations. This
Speaker 2: week's episode is hosted by me Stuart Stubbs, editor of
Speaker 2: Loud and Quiet magazine, and tonight's episode is a conversation
Speaker 2: that I had earlier this year, in April twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: with Michelle Zora aka Japanese Breakfast. We spoke just after
Speaker 2: Michelle had been at the Grammys, where she was nominated
Speaker 2: for two awards, Best New Artist and Best Alternative Album.
Speaker 2: Those took place in Vegas for the first time this year,
Speaker 2: but when I spoke to Michelle, she had relocated to
Speaker 2: upstate New York for a bit of downtime before heading
Speaker 2: back to California for Coachella. We speak about both of
Speaker 2: those things, the Grammys, Coachella, and also her album Jubilee,
Speaker 2: which she released last year. Is her third album, and
Speaker 2: as you're hearing me say to Michelle. I think it's
Speaker 2: a record that only gets better with time. I still
Speaker 2: is into it a hell of a lot. And back
Speaker 2: last year when it was released, we put Japanese Breakfast
Speaker 2: on the cover of our magazine Loud and Quiet. I
Speaker 2: have linked to that interview with Michelle in the show
Speaker 2: notes of this podcast. There's also a few other bits
Speaker 2: and pieces down there. What else can I tell you?
Speaker 2: We also talk a little bit about Michelle's memoir, which
Speaker 2: she released at the same time as she released Jubilee.
Speaker 2: It is a very personal book. Obviously it's a memoir,
Speaker 2: but it's also largely about the death of Michelle's mother,
Speaker 2: which is also what her last two albums have focused
Speaker 2: on in one way or another. And that book, Crying
Speaker 2: in h Mart, has now been picked up for a
Speaker 2: movie deal. It's going to be made into a movie.
Speaker 2: And the book came about after Michelle had a couple
Speaker 2: of essays published, one in Glamour magazine and then a
Speaker 2: second essay of hers was published in The New Yorker,
Speaker 2: and that essentially led to her book deal. If you
Speaker 2: have not heard Michelle's music yet, or the music of
Speaker 2: Japanese Breakfast, then Jubilee I think is a perfect starting point.
Speaker 2: She has a couple of albums before that, Psychopomp also great,
Speaker 2: but for me, Jubilee really is her best work. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I have one thing left to sell to you. I've
Speaker 2: got lots of things to sell to you, but the
Speaker 2: one thing that I'm going to sell to you this
Speaker 2: week is As you may know, this is a podcast
Speaker 2: linked to a music magazine called Loud and Quiet based
Speaker 2: here in London in the and it is predominantly supported
Speaker 2: by a subscribers what we've done this week for a
Speaker 2: limited time. We're not sure how long this is going
Speaker 2: to be a valid offer, so if you're listening to
Speaker 2: this episode far into the future, do check this out.
Speaker 2: But it might not be on But for now, if
Speaker 2: you sign up to Loud and Quite, you can get
Speaker 2: the first thirty days for free. We will send you
Speaker 2: a current issue which has Pavement on the cover, lots
Speaker 2: of great artists inside, including Nana Cherry and Gueno, lots
Speaker 2: of new bands that we're into. Yeah, give you a
Speaker 2: sense of exactly what the magazine is without you having
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Speaker 2: You'll get all of the benefits you get as a subscriber,
Speaker 2: which includes extra podcasts and playlists and discounts to records,
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Speaker 2: Physical magazine. We will post that out to you and
Speaker 2: hopefully you'll like it enough to stick around. That's all
Speaker 2: on loudon Quiet dot com. But first here is Michelle's
Speaker 2: Una Japanese breakfast on midnight Chats. Have you managed to
Speaker 2: decompress from the Grammys last week?
Speaker 1: I think I'm in my final day of decompressing. I
Speaker 1: had to do a couple of college readings right afterwards,
Speaker 1: So for that whole week it was a real whirlwind,
Speaker 1: Like my entire body needed to recover from the like
Speaker 1: vanity trauma I inflicted upon it. Like I had these
Speaker 1: really long nails that needed to be shaved off, and
Speaker 1: so my nail beds are very thin underneath, and my
Speaker 1: hair was like matted with wax for three days. So
Speaker 1: it was a real physical recovery after the Grammy.
Speaker 2: Wow, so it's physical as well as mental. I mean,
Speaker 2: how did you how did you find it? Did you like?
Speaker 1: How?
Speaker 2: How was your first Grammy experience?
Speaker 1: People kept asking me if I was nervous, and I
Speaker 1: really wasn't. I'm a pretty high strung person, but I
Speaker 1: felt very relaxed at the Grammys because I didn't have.
Speaker 3: To do anything.
Speaker 1: If I had to perform or something, I would have
Speaker 1: been a wreck. But I just had to go there
Speaker 1: and look hot and chat with people, which you know,
Speaker 1: I paid people to help me with it essentially, And
Speaker 1: so yeah, I just went in having a good time.
Speaker 3: I had no expectations.
Speaker 1: I had a feeling we were probably gonna lose both Grammys,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's such a delight to be nominated.
Speaker 1: All of my favorite artists have never won Grammys, so
Speaker 1: I feel an incredibly good company as a Grammy loser. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I mean, be Yor has lost fifteen nominations, so I'm
Speaker 1: in very good company.
Speaker 2: She's never won a Grammy.
Speaker 3: I don't think she has ever won a Grammy.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about it and like, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: she's been nominated like fifteen times. She's probably been in
Speaker 1: the Best Alternative category at least five and has never
Speaker 1: taken one because she doesn't want to play that game,
Speaker 1: because why was she you know? So, Yeah, I'm totally
Speaker 1: into just being in the conversation and I'm totally okay
Speaker 1: with it, and I just had a really great time.
Speaker 3: I went there to just celebrate this.
Speaker 1: Album with the team and the label and the band
Speaker 1: and Vegas, and yeah, I had a great time.
Speaker 2: Your nominations were for Best New Artist and Best Alternative Album, right, Yes,
Speaker 2: I mean that's like congratulations, that's like, it's amazing to
Speaker 2: thank you. Did you have many preconceived notions of what
Speaker 2: it was going to be like before you went and
Speaker 2: what was what was it like? How was it different
Speaker 2: to what you thought maybe was in store for you?
Speaker 3: I thought it was gonna be less fun, honestly. I
Speaker 3: heard that like you don't get water or like.
Speaker 1: Drink, and that there's no food, and I just thought
Speaker 1: it was gonna be really long and boring. But once
Speaker 1: we got in there, uh, because we were up for
Speaker 1: a major category, we actually got like a little table
Speaker 1: on the floor, so we were like in a.
Speaker 3: Really good spot. I was surprised like how close our
Speaker 3: table was.
Speaker 1: And they had like champagne service, so we at least
Speaker 1: got to have like champagne.
Speaker 3: And there was water.
Speaker 1: Uh, and half of the ceremony is really just performances,
Speaker 1: so it got it's really fun and like it's I
Speaker 1: would say, it's like fifty percent major category awards and
Speaker 1: fifty percent just like huge pop performance.
Speaker 3: And so I thought it was gonna be.
Speaker 1: Like really boring awards all the time, but it felt
Speaker 1: like quite fun just because you get to see these
Speaker 1: like stadium pop bands put on like this huge production
Speaker 1: show back to back to back. You could see Billie Eilish, BTS,
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga, justin Bieber, like all these people.
Speaker 3: I would never you know, pay like five.
Speaker 1: Hundred dollars to go see a show and to be
Speaker 1: able to like watch that back to back and have
Speaker 1: these like huge artists actually you know, put on this
Speaker 1: like enormous production was really fun. So I thought it
Speaker 1: was gonna be kind of like a drag once we
Speaker 1: were in the actual award ceremony, but it was.
Speaker 3: It was actually really fun to watch.
Speaker 2: Did you not even feel nervous as your categories were
Speaker 2: coming out, not in the sense of like, oh, I
Speaker 2: might not win, but I feel like I'd be more
Speaker 2: nervous thinking what if I win and I've now got
Speaker 2: I've got to get up there in a second.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like no one can judge you
Speaker 1: like you win granty. You know. I knew that there
Speaker 1: was just absolutely no way that we were gonna win
Speaker 1: Best New Artists. I knew one hundred percent. I think
Speaker 1: everyone else did that. Olivia Rodrigue was going to take it,
Speaker 1: and I think that she deserved it. For Best Alternative,
Speaker 1: I thought we had a fighting chance.
Speaker 3: But uh, I who thought that one? It was Saint Vincent,
Speaker 3: you know, which is also well deserved. But I thought
Speaker 3: maybe we had a chance. But I didn't feel too nervous.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna basically think everyone that helped me
Speaker 1: work on the record, So I don't really I didn't
Speaker 1: really feel like I had to make any kind of
Speaker 1: statement because it's also untelevised, so it's, uh, it's like less.
Speaker 2: Pressure, right, Yeah, this was the first year it was untelevised, right,
Speaker 2: it normally is.
Speaker 3: No. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think it is ever televised, there's always it not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a sect. There's one ceremony with a bunch of
Speaker 1: other awards that are not as yeah, which includes best Alternative.
Speaker 3: That's not televisied.
Speaker 2: Got yeah, Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I've never really paid attention to this compo.
Speaker 2: So it's this was but this was? Was this the
Speaker 2: first one that was in Vegas for some reason? But no,
Speaker 2: it's normally in LA, but this year was in Vegas
Speaker 2: due to a COVID delay. I think have you been
Speaker 2: to Vegas before then? Or was that your first Vegas trip.
Speaker 3: I've been to Vegas a couple of times. My members
Speaker 3: of Vegas I have. I have one.
Speaker 1: I went in my childhood with my parents and I
Speaker 1: remember they I actually write about this in my book,
Speaker 1: but they left me in the hotel to go gamble
Speaker 1: and I was an only child and I missed them,
Speaker 1: and so I cleaned the entire hotel room, hoping that
Speaker 1: when they came back that they would be very proud
Speaker 1: of me, not realizing that you know, there's you know,
Speaker 1: room service, housekeeping. But yeah, my mom was like a
Speaker 1: real neat freak, and so I thought if I cleaned
Speaker 1: the hotel room, and they came back that they would be.
Speaker 3: Sad that they looked. And then the other memory I
Speaker 3: have is I played a show one of.
Speaker 1: Our first like DIY shows as Japanese Breakfast in like
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen, I booked a show. Shamir
Speaker 1: actually helped me book a show at like a crepe
Speaker 1: restaurant and it was like in a strip mall in
Speaker 1: Las Vegas. There were maybe like ten people there that
Speaker 1: was probably largely there for the crapes, and they kept
Speaker 1: telling us to turn our amps down, and I was like,
Speaker 1: if I turned my amp down any quieter, it.
Speaker 3: Will just be off.
Speaker 1: Like it's at like two five, Like if you turn
Speaker 1: it any lower, it just shuts off.
Speaker 3: And it was not really conducive to a gig.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've been to I've been to Last Vegas
Speaker 1: a couple of times. I actually was like legally married
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas.
Speaker 2: So right, okay, yeah there a few times. So the
Speaker 2: so that time when you went and cleaned the hotel room,
Speaker 2: I mean, did it work?
Speaker 3: Did your parents They were like embarrassed. I feel like
Speaker 3: they've just felt bad.
Speaker 1: It was like such a needy only child and like
Speaker 1: they left for like two hours and I couldn't handle it.
Speaker 2: Wow, how old were we? How would how old would
Speaker 2: you have been them?
Speaker 3: I like eight or something?
Speaker 2: Okay, right, and so when, so when you were there
Speaker 2: this time for Grammy's time? Did you? I mean, do
Speaker 2: you like that? Are you a fan of Vegas as
Speaker 2: a place. I've never been myself, but I've heard all
Speaker 2: the cliches about it being a really fun place to
Speaker 2: go for a short period of time.
Speaker 3: I hate Las Vegas.
Speaker 1: I feel like there are maybe kids from Las Vegas
Speaker 1: that will tell me that I feel.
Speaker 3: Now, I feel hesitant to say that I hate Las Vegas.
Speaker 1: I hate like the center of Las Vegas or whatever.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there's like a real I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe there's like another culture outside of like the downtown,
Speaker 1: like Strip or whatever.
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 1: I feel like I would be pissed off if someone said,
Speaker 1: like I hate Philadelphia and they were like talking about
Speaker 1: like center city, like just like chain restaurant downtown.
Speaker 3: So maybe that's like unfair of me to say about
Speaker 3: Las Vegas. But that type of Las Vegas.
Speaker 1: I'm not like a big gambler, and I'm also get
Speaker 1: lost very easily of a really poor sense of direction.
Speaker 1: So I was like, honestly so overwhelmed about getting lost
Speaker 1: in the casino that I tried not to leave my room.
Speaker 1: Like at one point, I ordered a breakfast room service
Speaker 1: that was like two eggs and like hash browns and
Speaker 1: toasts were like twenty seven dollars, and I ordered room
Speaker 1: service because I was so afraid of leaving the room
Speaker 1: and getting lost that I just.
Speaker 3: Stayed my room.
Speaker 2: I've never thought it, thought of it as the sort
Speaker 2: of place where you would get lost, but I just
Speaker 2: say I've never been. It's obviously huge. How do you
Speaker 2: find like when you come to like a place like London, Like,
Speaker 2: do you tend to get lost everywhere?
Speaker 3: I do. I tend to have like a some kind
Speaker 3: of guardian with me. But I love London. I don't
Speaker 3: feel that way about London at all.
Speaker 2: It's just because you know, we're so like your cities
Speaker 2: are so grid like hmmm, because they're built for cars,
Speaker 2: you know, Like it's quite easy to be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm twenty blocks. I need to go up that way.
Speaker 2: The numbers are going up.
Speaker 1: I need to feel like in London, like I'll be
Speaker 1: okay getting lost because it's so lovely everywhere, and then okay,
Speaker 1: don't want biggest if I get lost, It's.
Speaker 2: Like just hell, so did you after the Grammys? Did
Speaker 2: you go to any of the There must have been
Speaker 2: parties galore in Vegas.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I I heard a rumor that Olivia Rodrigo
Speaker 1: was having a party, but there was a cover charge,
Speaker 1: so I was like, I'm not going to that. And
Speaker 1: then I didn't really hear about Like Jack Antonov invited
Speaker 1: me to like a small gathering, but I was honestly
Speaker 1: like just so wrecked.
Speaker 3: I was like so tired.
Speaker 1: I had kind of celebrated the night before and I
Speaker 1: was just really hungry and wanted to go to bed.
Speaker 1: So I kind of celebrated just like with my band
Speaker 1: and my label and team, and I didn't really do much.
Speaker 1: Maybe I like ruined my Grammy's experience by doing that,
Speaker 1: but I had a fun time. I didn't really go
Speaker 1: into any after parties. I would like to believe there
Speaker 1: weren't as many because it's in Las Vegas, but maybe
Speaker 1: I'm just like not cool enough to know what they are.
Speaker 2: I can't believe I didn't realize some of them charged
Speaker 2: that seems that doesn't seem right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they had to like pay
Speaker 3: for Paris Hilton's DJ set.
Speaker 2: Right. Well, congratulations on Tubilee. It's such a great record,
Speaker 2: and I think it just gets better over time the
Speaker 2: more I was listening to it again yesterday ahead of this,
Speaker 2: having like hammered it when it came out last year,
Speaker 2: and I think it just kind of gets better. Like
Speaker 2: do you how do you feel about it now with
Speaker 2: a little bit of distance from it coming out and
Speaker 2: obviously like the Grammys kind of may maybe makes you
Speaker 2: reconnect with it a bit.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so proud of it, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean when you when you make something, I feel
Speaker 1: like you always have this feeling that it's like the
Speaker 1: best thing that you've made. But I really felt that way,
Speaker 1: and it's really validating to have it be, you know,
Speaker 1: my most successful record. I'm I feel like I'm in
Speaker 1: this new place now where I've just been. It's been
Speaker 1: so charmed. This musical project has only gone up and up,
Speaker 1: and so I think I'm I'm sort of been in
Speaker 1: this sphere of like when is this plateau gonna come? Like?
Speaker 3: When am I going to make a record that causes
Speaker 3: the Descent, But.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I was just talking to my husband
Speaker 1: about this, about how you know, when you first put
Speaker 1: out a record, you're just so nervous to put on
Speaker 1: the live show, and there's so much pressure because it
Speaker 1: feels like you up into the very moment that you
Speaker 1: go on tour, it's up.
Speaker 3: To you to like build it up the way that
Speaker 3: it needs to be.
Speaker 1: And now that it's been almost a year, it's not
Speaker 1: even almost a year, I guess it's almost a year
Speaker 1: that the record's been out. It feels like I can
Speaker 1: finally just relax and enjoy the album and like.
Speaker 3: The show just is what the show is.
Speaker 1: You know, We've built this like machine that operates really
Speaker 1: well and I can just go back to hopefully enjoying
Speaker 1: these performances because I was such a ball of nerves
Speaker 1: in the fall hoping that we could. You know, we
Speaker 1: just scaled up so tremendously, Like we scaled up to
Speaker 1: six piece band and we brought on, you know, two
Speaker 1: more crew members, and it just scaled up.
Speaker 3: The show is so much And now I feel like
Speaker 3: we've finally.
Speaker 1: Risen to the occasion and I can just enjoy myself
Speaker 1: again because it was so nerve wracking for the first year, at.
Speaker 3: Least that's my hope.
Speaker 1: But going into Coachella and these big festivals, like, I
Speaker 1: just feel really ready and I'd like to just relax
Speaker 1: and enjoy the ride at this point because last year
Speaker 1: was so stressful.
Speaker 2: Have you done Coachella before, either as a fan or
Speaker 2: as an artist?
Speaker 3: I played as an artist. I think in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2: You're kind of going into that knowing what you're what
Speaker 2: you're getting into.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love Coachella. Honestly, I had a blast when
Speaker 1: we played there.
Speaker 2: I went like years and years. I went in two
Speaker 2: thousand and five. It's any time I've been well. Back
Speaker 2: then it was only two days, it was only one weekend,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't really a thing. It wasn't really much
Speaker 2: of a big thing. It didn't feel like that. It
Speaker 2: was depeche Mode and Tall but in the in the
Speaker 2: day Tool played Yeah, Yeah, Tall and depeche Mode. But
Speaker 2: in the day, like Kanye played. In the day Madonna played.
Speaker 2: I think it's her only festival set.
Speaker 1: Wait, Madonna didn't headline no Mode Madonna.
Speaker 3: That's crazy.
Speaker 2: She played in the middle of the day in ten
Speaker 2: That's wild and for a really short set. She probably
Speaker 2: only played for about twenty minutes in the end because
Speaker 2: she was really late coming on.
Speaker 3: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: She didn't seem to have a good time because she
Speaker 2: as well, like.
Speaker 3: Why am I not headlining? I like my I think
Speaker 3: she is like the highest paid tour before, like touring artist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine that. Yeah, fully, I think it's
Speaker 2: the only festival she's ever done. I don't think she's
Speaker 2: done one since. I don't think she's done one before
Speaker 2: because she was like, why is tool tool playing above me?
Speaker 2: But it was kind of weird because you know, Madonna
Speaker 2: doing a festival set. I was like, well, this is
Speaker 2: just going to be incredible. But she kind of only played,
Speaker 2: you know, she only played I'd say maybe six or
Speaker 2: seven songs if I remember correctly, and a lot of
Speaker 2: them were like real deep cuts off of new records.
Speaker 2: And then she was like fuck you all, yeah, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 2: and she kind of did it with just to I
Speaker 2: don't think she had a band. I think it was
Speaker 2: to backing. It was almost like she was a special
Speaker 2: secret guest, but she wasn't. She was on the bill
Speaker 2: like she It was kind of weird, but like this
Speaker 2: was cool. Yeah, it was cool. It was cool to
Speaker 2: see it. It was like the tent was rammed and
Speaker 2: it was a thousand degrees in there. It was really uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: It was kind of weird. I remember when I got
Speaker 2: to La and I told I met some I saw
Speaker 2: some people, like we bumped into some people and they
Speaker 2: were asking why we were in town, and we said, oh,
Speaker 2: we're going to Coachella. They didn't really know what it
Speaker 2: was that. They were like, oh, what is that? They
Speaker 2: thought they thought we were talking about a book festival.
Speaker 1: I think that the La Times Book Festival was around
Speaker 1: the same.
Speaker 2: Time, right, and maybe it was that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a big fan of the catering. Coachella was like, weirdly.
Speaker 1: One of our first festivals that we ever played, and
Speaker 1: they definitely treat their artists like super well, and I
Speaker 1: thought that all festivals.
Speaker 3: Were going to be like that moving forward.
Speaker 1: And really Coachella that has like ten different types of
Speaker 1: spa water and like PoCA stage and like all these desserts,
Speaker 1: so I just like really enjoy like eating my fill there.
Speaker 2: How do you find the British festivals be honest food wise?
Speaker 1: Oh? I do not want to get in trouble over there.
Speaker 1: I've gotten in trouble before for criticizing.
Speaker 3: Food in the UK, but I do like some food
Speaker 3: in the UK that I've had. But I had so
Speaker 3: many people like attack me.
Speaker 1: I like tweeted something about it because I just like
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily that I was talking about the UK
Speaker 1: food as a whole, just like the food that I
Speaker 1: happened to eat for the past week had been a
Speaker 1: string of bad decisions, I guess, and then I got
Speaker 1: I got so many people that were very upset, So
Speaker 1: now I'm I'm terrible.
Speaker 2: You've got to be careful commenting. One thing I love
Speaker 2: about the Japanese Breakfast is kind of how hands on
Speaker 2: you are with it and how like the DIY ethic
Speaker 2: of it, like the videos, the fact that you direct
Speaker 2: more or less all the videos and you get your
Speaker 2: friends in them, but there's also such a huge attention
Speaker 2: to detail within those things. When did you first get
Speaker 2: into that sort of DIY culture that is kind of
Speaker 2: at the heart of the band.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's how I got into music from the beginning.
Speaker 1: You know, when people ask like what inspired me to
Speaker 1: get involved with music? You know, I was going to
Speaker 1: shows at like fifteen sixteen, but it didn't ever feel
Speaker 1: accessible until I saw like a DIY show that some
Speaker 1: upperclassmen at my high school were throwing at a coffee shop,
Speaker 1: and that was the first time I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I know these people, what they're making is not necessarily
Speaker 1: like exceptional, but it's charming. They all have something to say,
Speaker 1: and they all have their own unique style, and that's
Speaker 1: something that I could do, especially as someone that you know,
Speaker 1: learned how to play the guitar pretty late. Later I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, sixteen is not too late, but at the time,
Speaker 1: it felt like I was kind of starting late. And
Speaker 1: you know, I never was very confident about my voice,
Speaker 1: but I wanted. I had so many ideas and stories
Speaker 1: I wanted to tell, and I just loved songwriting very quickly.
Speaker 1: And I loved, yeah, just that whole DIY ethic, like
Speaker 1: of just you know, you book your own shows, you
Speaker 1: promote your own shows, you you know, reach out to
Speaker 1: the city paper to write about your album, and I
Speaker 1: just I.
Speaker 3: Loved doing that.
Speaker 1: It made me feel like I was, I guess, you know,
Speaker 1: in charge of my own destiny.
Speaker 3: In some ways, and so yeah, that was just really
Speaker 3: how I got my start.
Speaker 1: And then as we grew, it made me really able
Speaker 1: to appreciate what other people could bring to the project.
Speaker 1: But that was just always it felt like artists like
Speaker 1: Mount Eerie and you know, all the K Records bands,
Speaker 1: and that's like what they did, and that was the
Speaker 1: art that I loved. And even just like doing your
Speaker 1: own like cutout collage, album design and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: That was sort of how I started.
Speaker 1: And then as we became bigger, having loftier ideas and
Speaker 1: getting more professional people involved to make the.
Speaker 3: Project bigger was like such a fun part of it
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 2: So at what point did you do the June Project,
Speaker 2: which was a Tumblr project where you wrote and recorded
Speaker 2: a new song every day throughout the whole of June,
Speaker 2: thirty songs in thirty days and uploaded them to Tumbler.
Speaker 1: I think that was like twenty thirteen or yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: late twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2: Did you find that that easy to like bash these
Speaker 2: songs out? Like, have you always found it easy to
Speaker 2: write songs?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I do think that writing songs for the most
Speaker 3: part has come pretty easily to me.
Speaker 1: But I think at that time, you know, you have
Speaker 1: periods where you get a little stuck and you start
Speaker 1: to overthink things, and so that was my way of
Speaker 1: kind of creating this project or like this little game
Speaker 1: to get me out of that slump. And I was
Speaker 1: working like three jobs at the time, so it was
Speaker 1: tough to find time to do. But it was just
Speaker 1: a way of just like, even if you only have
Speaker 1: ten minutes, you have to write and record something. And
Speaker 1: at the end, like I really only hated two songs.
Speaker 1: I only find like two songs completely like wretched, but
Speaker 1: a lot of them are just what ended up being
Speaker 1: really wonderful raw source material for It's kind of like
Speaker 1: a rough draft for something that you edit into something
Speaker 1: that's that's good later on. Like I think there was
Speaker 1: a lot of songs that came off of that project
Speaker 1: that ended up on Soft Sounds and Psychopomp, and I
Speaker 1: still really like and think about revisiting today.
Speaker 3: So I always think about doing that again because it
Speaker 3: was so.
Speaker 1: Helpful for me, and you know, no one was listening
Speaker 1: at that time, so it really didn't matter.
Speaker 2: I guess it also teaches you to be less precious
Speaker 2: about the thing, because I think when you're creating anything,
Speaker 2: whether it's a song or a painting or writing, that
Speaker 2: you can be crippled by the overwhelming sense of starting
Speaker 2: something because you think you might start down the wrong
Speaker 2: road or and then you end up just not actually
Speaker 2: doing anything because you're just sat there thinking, well, what
Speaker 2: if this isn't brilliant? You know, and you can if
Speaker 2: you can get to that point where you're you do
Speaker 2: a project like that where it's about you set yourself
Speaker 2: the challenge and it doesn't matter if it's necessarily brilliant.
Speaker 2: It's just about the exercise doing something. It lets you
Speaker 2: you let go of that a little bit, that preciousness
Speaker 2: that comes with creating.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's very much how I try to do
Speaker 3: all my work now, in a way to just show
Speaker 3: up and do it.
Speaker 1: When I wrote my book, similarly, I was like, you
Speaker 1: have to just write a thousand words every day until
Speaker 1: you hit eighty thousand words. And you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of it was garbage. But when you go back, like
Speaker 1: you have, you come up. Even if you just like
Speaker 1: delete the entire every single thing except for a sentence,
Speaker 1: sometimes that sentence really unlocks things that something really great.
Speaker 1: I did that again for my screenplay, where I was
Speaker 1: just like, I'm gonna write five pages every day until
Speaker 1: I hit it.
Speaker 3: And so that tends to be.
Speaker 1: It was a that project really unlocked something for me creatively.
Speaker 1: I think that that's just what I need as an
Speaker 1: artist to get through things.
Speaker 2: How was writing your memoir, which is called Crying in h.
Speaker 1: Mot Yeah, I mean at the time, it was like,
Speaker 1: I've never felt.
Speaker 3: Like a stupid or person.
Speaker 1: I took that, but I think in a way I
Speaker 1: had this like false confidence because I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I've written, you know, a number of records before, I've
Speaker 1: overseen these large creative projects. I can if I can
Speaker 1: do that, I can, I can probably do this. But
Speaker 1: it was it's such a long time. I was actually
Speaker 1: just talking to my husband about this, and I was like,
Speaker 1: we have a mutual friend whose ex used to do
Speaker 1: these like really long.
Speaker 3: Trails like which I just I'm not like a hi.
Speaker 3: My husband and I are not hikers, even though we
Speaker 3: like the woods.
Speaker 1: I like just sitting inside in the list or sitting outside.
Speaker 1: I'm not a big hiker. I hate I hate it,
Speaker 1: but I don't. I don't get a lot of joy
Speaker 1: from walking and hiking, and a lot of my friends
Speaker 1: think that that's weird.
Speaker 3: But I have other.
Speaker 1: Friends too that like we'll go on these like huge
Speaker 1: trails for like months and lose like twenty pounds and
Speaker 1: have like swollen feed and I'm just like I don't
Speaker 1: get that at all. I was saying, you know, writing
Speaker 1: a book is kind.
Speaker 3: Of like a mental everest.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like climbing like the the highest mountain
Speaker 1: mentally because and and that's like the kind of hiking
Speaker 1: I enjoy, if that makes sense. It's like I like
Speaker 1: to take on like these giant projects like in my mind,
Speaker 1: and that's like, I guess, like kind of the closest
Speaker 1: I get to what other people find joy and like
Speaker 1: long hikes or something. So yeah, lately I've been I've
Speaker 1: been really wanting to do it again because it is
Speaker 1: just like it's such a lofty project, but it's so
Speaker 1: fun to kind of torture yourself over for years and years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's it's quite a masochistic thing, isn't it. Writing
Speaker 2: It's really rewarding, but it can be brutally painful when
Speaker 2: you're just staring at at a blank page. How long
Speaker 2: did it take you to write the book on and off?
Speaker 3: Probably like to four to five years.
Speaker 2: That was running alongside you writing records and everything else.
Speaker 3: I preciate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I started probably in like I
Speaker 1: wrote the first essay that it was based on, I
Speaker 1: think in like early in like twenty in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 1: maybe late twenty fifteen, and so a lot of those
Speaker 1: like ended up being like repurposed into the book. And
Speaker 1: then I feel like there was probably two or three
Speaker 1: more concentrated years, but probably like four to six loose years.
Speaker 2: That first essay which was published in The New Yorker.
Speaker 1: There was actually an essay before that that was in
Speaker 1: Glamour magazine. But the thing, the essay called Crying in
Speaker 1: h Mart was the second essay I wrote, and it
Speaker 1: was actually I.
Speaker 3: Had already started writing the book by then. I had
Speaker 3: written like the first five chapters that ended up you know,
Speaker 3: being edited down, and you know.
Speaker 1: Like a couple of the chapters ended up not being
Speaker 1: in the book. But yeah, I actually I cleaned up
Speaker 1: the first chapter and that's what I sent into The
Speaker 1: New Yorker.
Speaker 2: Throughout all of that process, where you did you have
Speaker 2: like a book deal? Did you know where this was
Speaker 2: going or were you writing this ad that went early
Speaker 2: doors were you just writing for yourself and thinking I'm
Speaker 2: going to write a book and then we're deal with
Speaker 2: getting it out there later once it's done.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I I had some encouragement from this Glamor essay
Speaker 1: that won the contest in twenty sixteen, and one of
Speaker 1: the things I won was like it was published.
Speaker 3: In the magazine.
Speaker 1: I had a meeting with a literary agent and I
Speaker 1: won like five thousand dollars.
Speaker 3: So I left my job because.
Speaker 1: My music career was also kind of like starting to
Speaker 1: bubble up. So I was like, Okay, I have this
Speaker 1: like landing money in case it doesn't go well, and
Speaker 1: I'm starting to get these offers and so I'll give
Speaker 1: it a try again. But the once that Glamor I
Speaker 1: Say was published, I started getting contacted by a few
Speaker 1: literary agents. But I wasn't ready to really think about
Speaker 1: it yet because like Psycho Bomp had just came out,
Speaker 1: and Psycho Bomb was getting this attention that I had
Speaker 1: never gotten before as a musician, and I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is finally my chance. I was offered like a
Speaker 1: five week North American tour with Mitzki, and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is my focus right now.
Speaker 3: I can't think about writing a book.
Speaker 1: So then I went on tour for like a year
Speaker 1: and then or like maybe a year and a half
Speaker 1: or two years, and then in twenty seventeen or eight
Speaker 1: maybe December of twenty seventeen or eighteen, I can't remember,
Speaker 1: but I started. I went, We've toured Asia, and my
Speaker 1: husband and I stayed in Seoul for like six weeks afterwards,
Speaker 1: because it was like December January we were off, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I've been wanting to like start writing
Speaker 1: what I think could be this book, and so I
Speaker 1: wrote Crying in h one, which was the first chapter,
Speaker 1: and five more really messy chapters and started it. And
Speaker 1: then in twenty eighteen, I got connected to the New
Speaker 1: Yorker and they were like, send us some writing, and
Speaker 1: so I sent them the first chapter. And then when
Speaker 1: it was published in the New Yorker, that's when like
Speaker 1: my sort of literary profile like blew open. Then I
Speaker 1: was getting like a ton of emails from literary agents
Speaker 1: and publishers about turning it into a book.
Speaker 3: And the same literary agents.
Speaker 1: That I had won the contest with also happened to
Speaker 1: be my college professor's agent. So I really trusted her
Speaker 1: and really liked her, and she ended up getting me
Speaker 1: a book deal. I think in twenty and maybe February
Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, or yeah, twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3: Or sorry, I'm not really great with it.
Speaker 1: And then I had a book deal and then it
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, you got a bunch of money. Now
Speaker 1: you have to actually write the book. So I wrote
Speaker 1: a lot of the book on tours and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and then every time we would have a few weeks off,
Speaker 1: I would kind of hunker down and write some more.
Speaker 1: But yeah, from like twenty nineteen, that was when I
Speaker 1: was like really writing very seriously.
Speaker 2: In terms of, you know, putting having an essay published
Speaker 2: in the New Yorker and then suddenly being inundated with agents.
Speaker 2: Is that a typical response to somebody putting out an
Speaker 2: essay in the New Yorker? Or is that a testament
Speaker 2: to the strength of that essay? Do you have any
Speaker 2: kind of idea of this? Is that the norm? Or
Speaker 2: is this like quite a rarefied thing.
Speaker 1: I really have no idea, but I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: it helped that the response to it was so large,
Speaker 1: like people like shared that essay a lot and really
Speaker 1: related to it. And the only other thing that I
Speaker 1: can think of is there was a short story in
Speaker 1: the New Yorker called like.
Speaker 3: Cat person or something, and that also kind of like
Speaker 3: went viral, and that that person also got a book deal,
Speaker 3: So I think it has to do.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's obviously like such an honor in a
Speaker 1: rep all presidious thing to be published in New Yorker period,
Speaker 1: but it also really helps when it kind of takes
Speaker 1: off with readers.
Speaker 2: Sure, and that was that getting shared. Did you have
Speaker 2: a conscious effort to were you promoting that or was
Speaker 2: it just did it just naturally have those legs and
Speaker 2: got shared around from people reading it.
Speaker 1: I mean I was a much smaller artist at that time,
Speaker 1: and certainly I wasn't like this is going to blow
Speaker 1: me up.
Speaker 3: I was just like, I'm really proud of this thing
Speaker 3: that I wrote and here it is. But I wasn't
Speaker 3: like there was no like marketing campaign behind it.
Speaker 1: I definitely did not expect the response that it got,
Speaker 1: but I think it was, you know, not.
Speaker 3: As common of a thing to write about. At the time.
Speaker 1: It felt like a very niche topic in my mind,
Speaker 1: and then I didn't realize that there were just a
Speaker 1: bunch of people who also felt that way and had
Speaker 1: never gotten to read anything about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it must be like, you must be really proud
Speaker 2: of the fact that your two endeavors, one in music
Speaker 2: and one in writing. I've kind of got these two
Speaker 2: lives of their own. And of course, now as you
Speaker 2: become a better known musician and writer, they kind of
Speaker 2: play off each other and they help each other a bit.
Speaker 2: But it does feel like those two things for you
Speaker 2: happened kind of independently on the strength of the thing itself,
Speaker 2: rather than, oh, you're going to get a book deal
Speaker 2: because you're a known musician, which which you know does happen.
Speaker 2: Like that must feel like extra Does that feel extra
Speaker 2: rewarding that you kind of just got them both on
Speaker 2: the strength of the of the work itself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like, in a way, when the
Speaker 1: last year started in twenty I guess when twenty one started,
Speaker 1: I was like, one of these things is going to fail,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, but at least I like I'm
Speaker 1: putting to like rolling two dice here and in a
Speaker 1: way and also sorry makes like metapor, but like it
Speaker 1: feels like I planted a bunch of seeds expecting them
Speaker 1: to die and they're both like just took off, you know,
Speaker 1: in this way that I didn't really anticipate, and I'm
Speaker 1: really relieved that they did.
Speaker 3: But you know, I'm from Oregon. My dad was a
Speaker 3: truck broker.
Speaker 1: I don't have any I was thinking about this a
Speaker 1: lot at the Grammys, where I don't have any industry connections.
Speaker 1: They're all things that I've built of just like being
Speaker 1: an industri's person, I guess. And you know, when the
Speaker 1: thing about the Grammys is that, like you know, people always.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of like rubbing elbows or whatever.
Speaker 1: But it was kind of like one I thought about
Speaker 1: it in context of like I wonder who this secret
Speaker 1: society of Grammy voters are, and then I think about
Speaker 1: how did.
Speaker 3: I even get nominated?
Speaker 1: And for the past five years it's been like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: when you played a KXP session and you were like
Speaker 1: nice and kept in touch with Cheryl Waters, maybe Cheryl
Speaker 1: Waters the DJ voted for you. Or every time you
Speaker 1: agreed to do like a local paper, you know, in
Speaker 1: the choir or an interview, maybe Dan de Luca, the
Speaker 1: writer who looked you know, voted for you, or like
Speaker 1: maybe this person from NPR, like all the people in
Speaker 1: your life that you're like just nice to and get
Speaker 1: to know over the past six years of touring and
Speaker 1: putting in the work and doing the interview, Like, it's
Speaker 1: kind of a nice thing to look back on and
Speaker 1: just be like those are like that's completely something that
Speaker 1: you created on your own of just like being a
Speaker 1: good person, I hope you know, and like working hard,
Speaker 1: and so it feels really special that that happened because
Speaker 1: I have no connections to the literary world. I have
Speaker 1: no connections to the music world there. It's all stuff
Speaker 1: that I built on my own, like coming from a
Speaker 1: small town with like you know, I didn't grow up
Speaker 1: in like La or New York or anything. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels like especially validating that that happened the way
Speaker 1: that it.
Speaker 2: Did, I guess and crying Hma is being made into
Speaker 2: a film now as wow, I mean, congratuations on that.
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: If you.
Speaker 2: Like, are you are you allowed to talk about that yet?
Speaker 2: Is it too soon? What can you tell me about
Speaker 2: where where it's where you are in the process and
Speaker 2: what your involvement is in it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's still really early stages. I'm actually
Speaker 1: adapting the screenplay. I've written the first draft and I'm
Speaker 1: in the revision process right now. I'm actually that's what
Speaker 1: I'm going to be doing after this podcast is I'm
Speaker 1: like looking at a highlighted notated revision right now.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's still very early stages. I'm not sure
Speaker 3: what will happen.
Speaker 1: But my producers really like the screenplay and so I'm
Speaker 1: just cleaning it up now to get to the studio,
Speaker 1: hopefully by the end of the month.
Speaker 2: Is it public not? This might be public knowledge and
Speaker 2: maybe I should have just done some better research here.
Speaker 2: But is it do you have? Do you know where
Speaker 2: it's going to be available? Is it for a for
Speaker 2: a network? Is it for a streaming platform?
Speaker 1: Is it? So? It's going to be a feature through
Speaker 1: MGMs Orian Pictures, So.
Speaker 3: I think that their hope. I think the hope is
Speaker 3: that it's theatrical.
Speaker 1: Like that they'll it'll be in theaters and then I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know how that stuff works. I don't
Speaker 1: even know if it will get made. You know, these
Speaker 1: types of things, they don't get made a lot. But
Speaker 1: it feels like the studio and the producers are really
Speaker 1: enthusiastic about it and it has a good chance of
Speaker 1: getting made.
Speaker 3: I think it will get made. I don't know how exactly.
Speaker 3: I supposed to talk about it, but uh, yeah.
Speaker 1: It seems just like you know, it's movies are like
Speaker 1: so much money, and it seems like a lot of
Speaker 1: times things just die in production.
Speaker 3: But I feel I have a good feeling that this
Speaker 3: will be made. And I feel like that's that makes
Speaker 3: it sound like it's not going to be made. But
Speaker 3: I think that people don't realize that.
Speaker 1: Like you get movie deal, you can get like option
Speaker 1: deals like this all the time, and a lot of
Speaker 1: times they'll fall through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's be positive though. I think it's gonna get made.
Speaker 1: Like I do, actually think that it will get made.
Speaker 1: You know, there is no indic indicate so far that
Speaker 1: it won't get made.
Speaker 2: You know, and it's it's relatively I mean, there's not
Speaker 2: going to be huge explosions in it, right, it's going
Speaker 2: to be it's not going to be a huge break
Speaker 2: the bank budget. It's not a Marvel film.
Speaker 3: I think I've written it as a Marvel film.
Speaker 2: You've written as a Marvel kid. That's the way to
Speaker 2: succeed these days.
Speaker 1: There's like a huge like car chase scene where I'm
Speaker 1: like making kimchi in the backseat of the car.
Speaker 2: I'm guessing you're going to be as hands on as
Speaker 2: you possibly can be throughout the whole thing, right, I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 1: I say that I don't want to be, but I
Speaker 1: knowing myself, I probably will want to be in the end.
Speaker 1: I already have so many like ideas that I'm realizing
Speaker 1: is probably over the line of what I'm supposed to
Speaker 1: be doing. But I would love to be like involved
Speaker 1: and then not involved at all in a way, yeah,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense.
Speaker 3: I'm just too close to the story.
Speaker 1: And I've like, you know, written an entire book about
Speaker 1: and two records and you know, now a screenplay that
Speaker 1: I don't really want to be involved, and I think
Speaker 1: it's just so close to me, Like there's a part,
Speaker 1: there's a sick part of me that's like, why don't
Speaker 1: you just direct this?
Speaker 3: Why don't you just push to that?
Speaker 1: But then I'm like, oh god, that sounds awful, because
Speaker 1: you know, why would I want to relive this story
Speaker 1: anymore than I already have?
Speaker 3: And I think in.
Speaker 1: Any ways, like it needs to be interpreted by someone
Speaker 1: who wasn't involved in this experience at all, and I
Speaker 1: need to like let go of it being you know,
Speaker 1: I think that no matter what happens, like there will
Speaker 1: be parts of it that are cringey for me just
Speaker 1: because it's so close.
Speaker 3: It's my life, you know.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would love to like be involved in
Speaker 1: the decision making of like the director that takes it
Speaker 1: over and you know, the I have some ideas for
Speaker 1: the actors, not mine part well, I have an idea
Speaker 1: of like what the vibe of who should play me
Speaker 1: should be. I don't know people asking all the time,
Speaker 1: who do you want to play you? And it's like,
Speaker 1: can you name a single half Korean actor? And then
Speaker 1: I'm surprised by how many people are like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: important to you, And it's like, yeah, that's important to me.
Speaker 1: That's not important to me that she has to be
Speaker 1: half Korean. Like the actors have to be Korean. I
Speaker 1: think that they not only need to be they cannot
Speaker 1: be Korean American. I think it's really important that the
Speaker 1: other actors that play like my mom and my aunt
Speaker 1: and k are like actual Korean people, not Korean American people,
Speaker 1: because the accents are really important. And I think that
Speaker 1: that so much of this story is about what gets
Speaker 1: like kind of lost in translation and that frustration of
Speaker 1: that cultural divide that. I think that that needs to
Speaker 1: be like an authentic thing that's in the players involved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like you need to be on it, right,
Speaker 2: But I suppose when you're as you progress on, I mean, hey,
Speaker 2: I'm talking to someone has no idea about making films.
Speaker 2: I should say that right now. But I guess as
Speaker 2: it goes along, as the project goes along, you'll be
Speaker 2: able to be as involved as you need to be.
Speaker 2: Or do you want to be like, say, well, you
Speaker 2: know these things are imports me.
Speaker 3: I'm sure. I mean, we'll see.
Speaker 1: Certainly I have ideas, but almost I don't. I would
Speaker 1: like to believe I won't be devastated if they aren't. Like,
Speaker 1: I'm going into this knowing that this world is scary
Speaker 1: and tough, so I think I would be open to
Speaker 1: it letting it go.
Speaker 3: Also, yeah, yeah, sure, but knowing me, probably not.
Speaker 2: It's not going to happen, is it. You can pretend
Speaker 2: it's going to happen to yourself, but it's Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: probably gonna be a hard thing to let go. Because
Speaker 2: you studied creative writing at college. Does that was writing
Speaker 2: just period? Was that your Is that your first love?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 1: I think even when I started writing songs, it was
Speaker 1: like I wasn't.
Speaker 3: Like so in love with any instrument in particular. I
Speaker 3: just love writing songs. It was a beauticul for writing.
Speaker 2: And because so much of your published work is non
Speaker 2: fiction and your a lot of your songs are so autobiographical,
Speaker 2: where does the creative writing course, where does that come
Speaker 2: into it? It was there loads of things tricks that you
Speaker 2: learned there that goes into even the nonfiction things.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know, I don't think
Speaker 1: that nonfiction and fiction are too dissimilar.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean like.
Speaker 1: I had a professor, Daniel Tordeu, who was like a
Speaker 1: real mentor to me and is still a good friend,
Speaker 1: and I feel like I learned everything about reading and writing.
Speaker 3: From him and just like what moves you?
Speaker 1: And you know, even I forget how exactly he said this,
Speaker 1: but I remember, you know, like good writing doesn't have
Speaker 1: like a reveal or secrets, and like the best thing
Speaker 1: to do is just put it all out there in
Speaker 1: the first line. And so I remember taking from that
Speaker 1: lesson ever since my mom died, I cried in h mar,
Speaker 1: like that's the entire story right there. There's no I'm
Speaker 1: not revealing that my mom dies like one hundred pages
Speaker 1: in the book, like you know right away that that's
Speaker 1: what the story is. It ruins nothing and it tells
Speaker 1: you exactly what's going to happen right there in for
Speaker 1: a sentence.
Speaker 3: Lessons like that definitely made its.
Speaker 1: Way in or just you know, I mean everything in
Speaker 1: the book it comes from my courses in college.
Speaker 3: I think I am the writer that I am because
Speaker 3: of my studies.
Speaker 2: For previous episodes of Midnight Chats, simply search your podcast
Speaker 2: app and don't forget to follow or subscribe in order
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Speaker 2: The more information on the music magazine that makes this series,
Speaker 2: visit Loud and Quiet dot com.
Speaker 1: Anyway, good night