WEBVTT - What's the deal with subpoenas? 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:03.400 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of My 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:12.520 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.520 I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:20.560 there's Jerry Jerome Rowland over there, the Legal Eagles of podcasting. 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.840 Who can I be Daryl Hannah? Yes, I call Barbara Hershey. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.720 I don't think so. Who was it, oh, Legal Eagles? 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.920 I know Deborah Winger? Yes, was Darryll Hannah even in 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.560 that Now, yeah, she was the client of Deborah Winger. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.879 And you're not Redford? No, I always have to be 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:43.519 read for everybody's always like that. Guy's a regular Robert Redford. 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.280 He'll play him in this scenario. Right, That's that's the 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.279 street chatter. Yeah. Can I still be Barbara Hershey even 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.120 though she wasn't in the movie. Sure, I think I'm 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.280 thinking of beaches. Oh well, that means I get to 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.320 be Bette Midler? Right. I wonder how many pods save 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.400 America Seners we just lost who it just casually decided 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.800 to give us a chance? I want to learn about subpoenas. 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.839 Right before we get going, though, can we quickly thank 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.520 the cities of Orlando and Greater Orlando and Florida in 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:18.559 New Orleans and Greater Louisiana. Yes, for two fun live shows. Yeah, 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.120 those were a lot of fun. Um. Let's see. We 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:25.520 did Orlando on October nine, I think, and then the 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.039 tenth for New Orleans. Regardless, it was night back to 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.560 back to fund filled nights and they were just both 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.920 amazing shows. Yeah, and when this comes out, I think 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:36.800 New York will have been over. So thank you New York. 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.399 Oh yeah, yeah, we we presume it's going to have 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:42.640 been a great time that three night run at the Bellhouse. 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.319 They're always great there. And that's it too. That's it 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.160 for us for the for the year, Chuck, So, I 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.360 mean thank you to everybody who came out to see 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.360 our shows this year. Yeah. Can we go ahead and 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:59.000 tease our our January scheduled? Should we not? I think 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.200 we can't sure? All right, Well, well we're hoping to 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.240 be back at Sketch Fest again, and then what do 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.400 we settle on? I don't know settling is the right 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:13.960 way to put it. The Seattle we're doing Seattle, we are, Yeah, 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:18.120 and normally for a January swing we do Portland's Seattle 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:22.079 Sketch Fest. Well, We've got the I Heart Radio Awards 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.760 in there in Los Angeles, and we just you know, 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.440 kind of have to go to that. Um no, sorry, 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:30.680 the I Heart Podcast Awards. They don't care about us 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:32.639 at all at the radio Awards. Now. We can't even 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.600 get in that building, right exactly. So we said, okay, well, 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.840 we gotta we gotta pull out one of our shows 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.200 because we're old men and we just can't spend that 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.240 much time on the road. So instead we're going to 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.840 take Portland's and put it with another town in the spring. 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.320 So don't worry, Portland, we will be out there maybe 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.600 maybe the Cove. That's what that's the talk, that's the 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.639 chatter around town. But we have no dates confirmed yet. 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.280 But this just look for us again in the Pacific 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.560 Northwest at the beginning of the year. It's a much 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.560 better way to put it. So do you want to 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.000 talk about subpoenas? You got any other housekeeping to do? 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:11.280 I don't think so. Um, subpoena's weird spelling. Well, yeah, 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.280 so I looked up the word, and subpoena is actually 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:18.520 two words. It means under penalty and it's typically the 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.000 first two words that were read in this rid of subpoena, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:28.600 basically saying, under penalty of um blah blah blah. Yeah, 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:30.399 I was thinking all I could think about was really 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:35.160 dirty dark stuff. Yeah, so I just let you fill 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.760 in the blah blah blah. But anyway, under penalty of whatever, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.720 you need to do one of two things. Uh, And 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.360 there are two types of subpoenas that everybody, you know, 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:47.400 everybody hears subpoena and you think, like Law and Order, 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.160 Maybe visions of Central Park run through your head because 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.560 that's your only exposure to Central Park is from Law 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.200 and Order, or you think of the US government, because 0:03:57.600 --> 0:03:59.760 a lot of this is going to be about congressional subpoenas, 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.760 because that's really the juiciest subpoena. Yeah, that's It's not 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.680 like it's new that Congress has just recently started issuing subpoenas. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.920 It's new in the conscious of America in this this age, 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.240 this generation. I mean, it's been going on for a while. 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:17.960 But normally when people think subpoenas until like basically two thousand, seventeen, 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:23.440 sixteen eighteen, um, not necessarily in that order. Um, most 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.000 people thought of courtroom subpoenas, and that is you know, 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.800 typically the subpoena most people are ever going to come 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.680 up against in their lifetime. That's right. But you mentioned 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.520 the two types. You want to break out your Latin 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.280 or shall I you take the first, I'll take the second. Okay, 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.840 The first one's easy. The first one is subpoena add 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:49.400 testify candem. Wow, did you see that? You just made 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.040 a mouse appear and run out of the room. The 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.200 next one, so that I was so sorry. The first one, 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.400 the one you just said, that means you gotta come 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.599 to court. You just nailed it. Yeah, it says that 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.800 you to come and testify, and you might not be 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.120 um a party to the lawsuit like this is. It 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.400 can be a civil case or a criminal case. It's 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.720 a big thing to point out, um, But basically it's 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.920 saying you have some information. You witnessed an act, um, 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:21.160 you overheard a conversation the the defendant confess something to you. 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.159 We need you to come to court and tell your story. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.120 And that's what that first subpoena is saying to do. Yeah, 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.400 and not necessarily court court, but it can be any 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.080 kind of legal authority. Yeah, it could be a deposition, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:36.240 it could be an arbitration. Um. But typically it's the 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.520 authority of a court of law to basically say we're 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:42.800 going to levy a fine against you, or we're going 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:44.479 to arrest you and put you in jail if you 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.240 don't listen. That's that's used to um to kind of 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:54.640 enforce subpoenas. So the second one is the subpoena doocey's teacum, Hey, nice, 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.320 thank you um. And that is basically saying, hey, you 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.640 have a document, you have of a hair sample, you 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.200 have some sort of bodily fluids we want to get 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.640 our hands on. You have a compute yeah, or a 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:13.719 computer hard drive, um, you know something like that that 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.400 we want you to produce because we want to use 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.400 it as evidence. And there's a really important point to 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.080 put here, Like a court is saying a court or 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.599 an official of the court or of the government is saying, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.200 we want you to do this because we have this 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.200 lawsuit going on and you have something we need. But 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.320 it's not necessarily the judge saying, and the judge is 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.279 signing off on it. It's really a lawyer or of 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:39.560 for one side of the other saying, hey, I heard 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.480 that this person has the secret tape and I need 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.360 to get my hands on it, Judge, can you order 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.680 this person to bring it to me so that I 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.160 can enter it into evidence. And then the judge says, 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.240 speak to my clerk, and then the clerk of the 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.000 usually the clerk of the judge who's handling that case. Um, 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.160 they say, talked to the hand. Yeah, and they'll generally 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.039 issue it on uh, unlike official court letter head and 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.799 official documentation. It's not like the judges washing their hands 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.920 of it necessarily. No, No, I'm sure like if they 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.720 do something egregiously wrong with the judge is gonna hear 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.000 about it and punish them, that's right. And then it 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:19.240 served um, usually in person, uh kind of you know, 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.080 hand it to you like on the TV shows and 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.200 in the movies. Yeah, either by a sheriff's deputy or 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:28.080 a process server. Yeah, but not always it it depends 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:32.440 on if it's congressional um, or if it's you know, 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:37.560 civil regular josh mos stuff. Yeah. Well yeah for sure. 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:39.760 But I think even if it is regular civil josh 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.800 Mos stuff, you can still go higher the sheriff's department 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.440 to serve papers, to serve a subpoena, Oh for sure. 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.840 I think the congressional ones are not served by a sheriff. Oh, 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.640 I see who do they use? I think it depends 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:56.400 it could. I mean the way congressional subpoena's work is 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:00.520 all sort of dependent on the individual committee that's seeking subpoena, 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.480 So they all have their own individual rules about like 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.800 whether you need a majority vote to even get a subpoena, 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.280 or whether the chair of that committee is you know, 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:15.000 has the power to h grant or request to subpoena. Right, 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:16.920 I've read some of them know that it's a real 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.880 downer to get a subpoena, says some congressional committees used 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.960 that mascot from the nineteen eight four Olympics, the Eagle 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.480 to come issue your papers to you. I don't remember 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.840 that one. You don't remember that eagle? Now? Was this 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.319 like a cartoon eagle from? Yeah? I mean all I can. 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.480 I can't get past the Atlanta Olympics mascot. That's why 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.520 I can't get back to nineteen eighty four? Was it? 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.440 What's it? Or who's it? I don't even know. It 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:45.960 was one of those two. What was that thing? I 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.280 don't know. It was a last last minute thing. What 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.520 was the name it was? What's it? Or who's it 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.520 was it? Yes, yes, man, it was bad. I was 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.800 out of town. I fled. You didn't miss anything. But 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:03.520 I do remember watching the opening uh whatever they're called, 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:09.040 the opening opening ceremonies, and seeing the stainless steel pickup 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.960 trucks driving around and just thinking, oh boy. Yeah. And 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:14.640 I for those of you who are like, they've talked 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.280 about this before, yeah, we have, and we're still that 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.400 upset about it. We'll talk about it again in five 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.880 more years. We haven't forgotten. Yeah, stainless deel pickup trucks 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.040 they haunt. I have dreams about those trucks. Yeah, if 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:32.840 they're just circling you playing striper at the loudest possible volume. Man. Okay, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.880 So we've got different kinds of subpoenas, but both of 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:40.000 them apply to either courts of law or Congress. So 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.120 there's one big question that most people who get a 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:47.679 subpoena ask themselves the moment they're served the paper, and 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.520 that is, can I ignore this? Do I have to 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.400 do this right? We get what happens to me if 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.319 I just pretend like I never got this, And that's 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.720 really tough to do. I was reading about process servers 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.880 and Um, they people who are issuing the subpoena or 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.200 the lawyer who's asking for the subpoena to say, they 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:07.760 want some sort of proof that says you got that paper, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.280 so they have to. Um. There's like certain rules and 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.560 regulations to serve to serving somebody with a subpoena, so 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:18.520 it's really difficult to pretend like you're not, like you 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:20.920 didn't get it, and a lot of people actually go 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.640 to a tremendous amount of trouble to avoid being served 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.760 as subpoena. They will like move around, they will pretend 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.600 they're not home. They won't let anyone else answer the 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.560 door because in some states you can leave it with 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.320 a competent thirteen year old or eighteen year old. They'll 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.160 stick their hands in their ears and go la la la, 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.840 la la la. Right exactly, they'll do a lot of 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.880 stuff to keep from being served. But that's actually it 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.559 will just delay being served in the long run, you 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.680 will still there's other remedies they can use. They can 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.800 mail it to your house certified mail, and if the 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.080 male person says this was dropped off made it to 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.160 their house, that's enough. Or if you can say I 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.040 took the numbers off my mailbox where you get to 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.920 do now, chump um. They can actually post an ad 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.960 in the local legal organ the newspaper, and then that 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.480 will be considered serving you. So either way, you're going 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.839 to end up being considered to have received the subpoena eventually, 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.640 and if you do, you probably shouldn't ignore it. Yeah, 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.320 I mean, it says here in this article which most 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.680 of this is from the House Stuff Works article about subpoena's, 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:27.920 but it says, you know, it's a lot easier if 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:32.280 you just go or produce the documents. But as we'll 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:34.880 cover here and a lot of this congressional oversight stuff, 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:39.600 that is not the route that people take generally in government. Yeah, 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:41.400 and I thought it was kind of an oversight to 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.839 not say, like, but also, if somebody serves you with 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.080 the subpoena, like go you don't necessarily have to hire 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.319 a lawyer, but at least consult with one, like get 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.080 some legal advice, say this is what I got, you know, 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.719 what what should I do with this? Is this? You know, well, 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.040 you know, there's a lot of questions that you should 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.920 have answered before you just act down a subpoena. Yeah, 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.920 and you know, when it comes to ignoring subpoena's. Uh. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:06.520 And that's what a lot of this will be about, 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.160 is um is what's going on with our government right 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.760 now and previously and what happens if you defy Congress 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.080 And is there any accountability for that or can you 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.959 just sit on your hands say nope? But there have 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:24.800 been some very famous um cases in the past, you know, 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.880 fifteen years or so where subpoenas have been ignored. Uh, 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.040 starting well, I'm not starting with but we can start 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.679 with Eric Holder, Attorney General for Barack Obama. Yeah, that 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.400 was a big one that was part of the operation, uh, 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:43.720 the Fast and Furious scandal. Scandal. Yeah, it was definitely 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:47.280 a scandal. It um It from what I remember, it 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.240 involved like secret gun sales or else. Some guns were 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.640 like led out into the community to be traced to 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:55.560 see who they went to, and one of them ended 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.160 up being used to murder an ice officer I believe. Well, 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:04.840 Attorney General Eric Holder refused, under direction of Obama, to 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.360 answer that subpoena, and he became the first sitting cabinet 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:13.280 member to be voted in contempt of Congress. That right, Yeah, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.240 And you know you're like, oh, what happens in well, 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.440 three and a half years later, a judge ruled Um 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:24.120 that he did not have the right to defy Congress. 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.160 And by that time there was a new Congress, and 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.760 it was a moodpoint. That's a really big big thing 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.199 to remember, is like a contempt of Congress vote where 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.920 you are supposedly in trouble for ignoring a subpoena, only 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.920 lasts as long as that session of Congress, unless the 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.480 next session of Congress wants to pick it up. Yes, 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:45.400 but then they have to hold another vote. And the 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.520 chances that that the that there has been a change 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.760 in leadership potentially in that Congress is you know high 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.360 enough that if you if you make it through that Congress, 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.400 you know, um, going into recess, you're you're probably going 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.640 to get away with it. And I mean that's par 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:04.559 for the course. It wasn't just Eric Holder who got 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.280 away with it. Um, Harriet Myers, who was a White 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.480 House counsel, the George W. Bush. There's like a mass 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:16.800 political firing of U S attorneys and Um yep, and 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.160 she and I think chief of staff at the time, 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.520 Joshua Bolton were both held in contempt of Congress and man, 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.520 if you look up, like you know, follow up reporting 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:28.960 on this stuff, it's like, you know, while it's going 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.800 on there like they could face fine jail time. Finally 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.440 I found some follow up. There's like nothing nothing happened, 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.640 Absolutely nothing happened. There's no legal ramifications, there were no 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:45.040 personal ramifications. There was nothing happened whatsoever to Harriet Myers 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.880 or Joshua Bolton or Eric Holder for just saying Congress, 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.920 the United States Congress, go sit on it, which is 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.640 essentially what you're saying when you ignore a subpoenis yea. 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.480 And because of this um you remember represented of darryl 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.560 Issa probably by name, he was uh he was involved 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.440 in trying to get Eric Holder, you know in the room, 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.880 and he was so mad he sponsored or intro to 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.760 bill to strengthen subpoena enforcement power, and uh it died 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.480 in the Senate. And before we, uh, I think we're 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:20.840 about to take a break. Before we do that, that 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.400 we should mention that currently White House Counsel Don McGann 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.640 um has refused to testify or refused to uh answer 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.480 his subpoena under direct order of Trump and UM right 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:39.240 now he's being sued by the House and he he 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:44.160 in particular provides a an unusual situation because at least 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.120 with Harriet Myers, or with Joshua Bolton or with Eric Holder, 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.000 when they were directed by the president at the time 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.720 not to um submit to that subpoena from Congress, they 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.680 were part of the president's staff. Don McGann was instructed 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.320 not to do not to cooperate with the subpoena after 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.280 he had already left civil service. He was no longer 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.000 part of the executive branch. So that definitely makes it unusual. 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.280 But if you're sitting there and your head is popping 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.200 and you're saying, how wait, how this is Congress, How 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.480 can the president just say just ignore that subpoena and 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.760 people get away with it. There's actually a lot of 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.440 case law that's been built over the centuries that kind 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:25.880 of establishes that. And I say, Chuck, we take a 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:52.120 break and then we'll dive into that after this. So, Chuck, 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.960 there's something about subpoenas, whether they're issued by Congress or 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.280 by a court of law. Um, when you get them 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:02.560 that a lot of people don't realize, uh, they're negotiable. 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.840 That's one really big reason to hire a lawyer is because, um, 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.080 they it may be overly broad, it may be kind 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.920 of a fishing expedition. It may put you at risk 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.560 to come forward and give this testimony or to hand 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.800 over these documents. And if you'll if you hire a 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.280 lawyer and say, hey, these are the things I'm worried about, 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.040 they can go and argue to the judge like, hey, 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.879 how about we just limit this subpoena to these documents 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.440 rather than everything on my client's hard drive. Or it's 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.920 really a big hardship for my client to make it here, um, 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.480 and the fifteen dollars a day that the court's paying 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.480 him for coming to testify isn't actually going to cover it, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.639 So you know, can we can we negotiate a higher 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.680 fee or something like that. There's a lot of stuff 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.840 that can be done. But this is a technic that's 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.800 also used with congressional um subpoenas too, where say like 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.399 the executive branch will go, m I think that this 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.520 is a little overly broad, but maybe we could give 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:01.640 you this document. Will that satisfy you go Nope? Sometimes 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.520 they say yes, though, and part of that negotiation comes 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.359 out of the subpoena process. It's a response to it, um, 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.720 But none of it would have any effect whatsoever if 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:17.679 Congress didn't have any redress for um, for enforcing its subpoenas. 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.960 If somebody ignores it. Yeah, I mean, technically there are 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.360 fines in jail time sort of looming. But the more 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.560 I read about this stuff, especially when it comes to 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.119 Congressional oversight, the more it became clear that none of 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.920 that stuff really happens. It's all just dangled out there 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.360 as a means to negotiate, uh something with each other 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:43.280 over a pretty long period of time usually for sure. Yeah, 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.680 that Eric Holder thing was it was like four years 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.879 before he finally handed over the file um, and I 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.400 think Congress had already gone out of session, you said, 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.800 And it was basically just the whole thing had died down, 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.960 which I think is basically the the stalling tactic that 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:01.480 people ignore subpoenas for like that's why they're doing it. Yeah. 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.720 So technically, if you defy Congress, the committee that issued 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.919 that subpoena is going to vote to issue a citation, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.439 a contempt citation, and then it's got to go to 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:13.959 the full chamber to vote on it. And if that 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.800 goes through and it passes, which it has before. Then 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.680 there are three three basic ways that you can prosecute 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:26.680 that charge, right, and each one is worth Yeah, pretty 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.800 much like this is. We would never give official legal advice, 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.359 first of all, because we're not lawyers or even trained 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.199 as lawyers. But from what I can tell, there's just 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.600 nothing happens to you if you ignore a congressional subpoena. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.159 But most people respond to it because I feel like 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:47.320 the further down the UM food chain you are, the 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:52.960 more likely Congress is to do something in retaliation to you. Yeah, well, 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.240 let's let's go through the three at least fine, if 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.440 for no other reason than pure folly. So if they 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:05.080 if they vote in in that contempt citation goes through UH. 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.399 It is then under the control of the executive branch. 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.400 And you think, oh great the president or oh great 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.600 the president. It's really neither is the Justice Department, which 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.040 is part of the executive branch. It's up to them 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.359 to decide whether or not they're going to prosecute UH criminally, 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:24.119 and they're going to say no, They're gonna say then 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:26.320 we'll talk a lot about executive privilege coming up, but 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.879 they will usually cite that UM and decline to prosecute, 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.440 basically kind of saying, uh, you know what, we don't 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.399 get involved in this stuff, right. So so that is 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:40.160 specifically when it comes to subpoenaing something from the White 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.600 House or the executive branche. Now, if the if if 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.439 Congress is being ignored by say like the owner of 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.359 the Houston Astros, they can go to the d o 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.680 J and say, Hey, the Houston Astros baseball team owners 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:56.040 ignoring a subpoena, We want you to go after the guy, 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.160 and they'll go after the guy. It's when it's executive 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.720 privilege that's being cited that the d o J says, 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.359 you know how, it's our jurisdiction to decide whether to 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.200 prosecute this stuff. We're going to decline to do that 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.440 because it's our own people and we're just going to 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:14.920 consider this an internal executive branch. Matter Number two is uh, 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.040 the civil judgment, right, and that's when you need the 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.480 courts to basically enforce this. Go into court and saying 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.080 we need your help to enforce this civil suit against 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.560 somebody who stiff this right, Like, you know how you 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:30.760 can go arrest somebody and put him in jail, can 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.359 you do that on our behalf basically, but this is 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:38.040 super slow, like turtle like slow. Yeah. But I think 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:43.120 the idea is that, um, the thought that maybe somewhere 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:45.720 a couple of years down the line, there's going to 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:47.639 be a judgment against you where you're going to have 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.960 to pay a hundred thousand dollars to Congress or something 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.280 like that. There's been like twelve months in jail. Will 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.560 get you to to the table to negotiate, you know, 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:01.040 what documents they actually want or what testament money they want? Yes, 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.239 just leverage, right. So the third one is something that 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:09.359 isn't used anymore. Really. It's called inherent contempt power was 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:13.359 last used in nineteen thirty five. And this is you know, 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:15.840 this is sort of the jail thing. And while there 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:19.920 is no capital jail, they do have a holding cell. Yeah, 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.879 and like the sergeant at arms of the Senate or 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.440 the House, depending on who's issuing the subpoena and who 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:30.840 voted to UM told you in contempt, an armed officer 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:35.040 of the Congress will show up and say you're under arrest. 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:37.439 Congress says you're under arrest. You have to come with me. 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:41.119 Um or as has been kind of boom um bounced 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:45.399 around lately by UM Democrats in the House, replacing the 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.560 idea of jailing somebody, of arresting and jailing them with 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.240 a much much stiff refined than people have traditionally faced, 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.000 something more on the order of I think between twenty 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.480