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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and

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Speaker 1: there's Jerry Jerome Rowland over there, the Legal Eagles of podcasting.

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Speaker 1: Who can I be Daryl Hannah? Yes, I call Barbara Hershey.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. Who was it, oh, Legal Eagles?

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Speaker 1: I know Deborah Winger? Yes, was Darryll Hannah even in

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Speaker 1: that Now, yeah, she was the client of Deborah Winger.

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Speaker 1: And you're not Redford? No, I always have to be

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Speaker 1: read for everybody's always like that. Guy's a regular Robert Redford.

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Speaker 1: He'll play him in this scenario. Right, That's that's the

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Speaker 1: street chatter. Yeah. Can I still be Barbara Hershey even

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Speaker 1: though she wasn't in the movie. Sure, I think I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking of beaches. Oh well, that means I get to

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Speaker 1: be Bette Midler? Right. I wonder how many pods save

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Speaker 1: America Seners we just lost who it just casually decided

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Speaker 1: to give us a chance? I want to learn about subpoenas.

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Speaker 1: Right before we get going, though, can we quickly thank

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Speaker 1: the cities of Orlando and Greater Orlando and Florida in

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Speaker 1: New Orleans and Greater Louisiana. Yes, for two fun live shows. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: those were a lot of fun. Um. Let's see. We

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Speaker 1: did Orlando on October nine, I think, and then the

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Speaker 1: tenth for New Orleans. Regardless, it was night back to

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Speaker 1: back to fund filled nights and they were just both

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Speaker 1: amazing shows. Yeah, and when this comes out, I think

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Speaker 1: New York will have been over. So thank you New York.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we we presume it's going to have

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Speaker 1: been a great time that three night run at the Bellhouse.

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Speaker 1: They're always great there. And that's it too. That's it

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Speaker 1: for us for the for the year, Chuck, So, I

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Speaker 1: mean thank you to everybody who came out to see

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Speaker 1: our shows this year. Yeah. Can we go ahead and

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Speaker 1: tease our our January scheduled? Should we not? I think

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Speaker 1: we can't sure? All right, Well, well we're hoping to

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Speaker 1: be back at Sketch Fest again, and then what do

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Speaker 1: we settle on? I don't know settling is the right

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Speaker 1: way to put it. The Seattle we're doing Seattle, we are, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and normally for a January swing we do Portland's Seattle

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Speaker 1: Sketch Fest. Well, We've got the I Heart Radio Awards

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Speaker 1: in there in Los Angeles, and we just you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of have to go to that. Um no, sorry,

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Speaker 1: the I Heart Podcast Awards. They don't care about us

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Speaker 1: at all at the radio Awards. Now. We can't even

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Speaker 1: get in that building, right exactly. So we said, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta pull out one of our shows

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Speaker 1: because we're old men and we just can't spend that

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Speaker 1: much time on the road. So instead we're going to

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Speaker 1: take Portland's and put it with another town in the spring.

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Speaker 1: So don't worry, Portland, we will be out there maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe the Cove. That's what that's the talk, that's the

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Speaker 1: chatter around town. But we have no dates confirmed yet.

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Speaker 1: But this just look for us again in the Pacific

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Speaker 1: Northwest at the beginning of the year. It's a much

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Speaker 1: better way to put it. So do you want to

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Speaker 1: talk about subpoenas? You got any other housekeeping to do?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. Um, subpoena's weird spelling. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I looked up the word, and subpoena is actually

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Speaker 1: two words. It means under penalty and it's typically the

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Speaker 1: first two words that were read in this rid of subpoena,

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Speaker 1: basically saying, under penalty of um blah blah blah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking all I could think about was really

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Speaker 1: dirty dark stuff. Yeah, so I just let you fill

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Speaker 1: in the blah blah blah. But anyway, under penalty of whatever,

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Speaker 1: you need to do one of two things. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: there are two types of subpoenas that everybody, you know,

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Speaker 1: everybody hears subpoena and you think, like Law and Order,

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Speaker 1: Maybe visions of Central Park run through your head because

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Speaker 1: that's your only exposure to Central Park is from Law

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Speaker 1: and Order, or you think of the US government, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of this is going to be about congressional subpoenas,

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Speaker 1: because that's really the juiciest subpoena. Yeah, that's It's not

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Speaker 1: like it's new that Congress has just recently started issuing subpoenas.

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Speaker 1: It's new in the conscious of America in this this age,

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Speaker 1: this generation. I mean, it's been going on for a while.

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Speaker 1: But normally when people think subpoenas until like basically two thousand, seventeen,

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Speaker 1: sixteen eighteen, um, not necessarily in that order. Um, most

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Speaker 1: people thought of courtroom subpoenas, and that is you know,

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Speaker 1: typically the subpoena most people are ever going to come

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Speaker 1: up against in their lifetime. That's right. But you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the two types. You want to break out your Latin

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Speaker 1: or shall I you take the first, I'll take the second. Okay,

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Speaker 1: The first one's easy. The first one is subpoena add

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Speaker 1: testify candem. Wow, did you see that? You just made

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Speaker 1: a mouse appear and run out of the room. The

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Speaker 1: next one, so that I was so sorry. The first one,

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Speaker 1: the one you just said, that means you gotta come

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Speaker 1: to court. You just nailed it. Yeah, it says that

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Speaker 1: you to come and testify, and you might not be

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Speaker 1: um a party to the lawsuit like this is. It

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Speaker 1: can be a civil case or a criminal case. It's

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Speaker 1: a big thing to point out, um, But basically it's

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Speaker 1: saying you have some information. You witnessed an act, um,

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Speaker 1: you overheard a conversation the the defendant confess something to you.

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Speaker 1: We need you to come to court and tell your story.

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Speaker 1: And that's what that first subpoena is saying to do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and not necessarily court court, but it can be any

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Speaker 1: kind of legal authority. Yeah, it could be a deposition,

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Speaker 1: it could be an arbitration. Um. But typically it's the

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Speaker 1: authority of a court of law to basically say we're

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Speaker 1: going to levy a fine against you, or we're going

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Speaker 1: to arrest you and put you in jail if you

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Speaker 1: don't listen. That's that's used to um to kind of

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Speaker 1: enforce subpoenas. So the second one is the subpoena doocey's teacum, Hey, nice,

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Speaker 1: thank you um. And that is basically saying, hey, you

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Speaker 1: have a document, you have of a hair sample, you

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Speaker 1: have some sort of bodily fluids we want to get

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Speaker 1: our hands on. You have a compute yeah, or a

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Speaker 1: computer hard drive, um, you know something like that that

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Speaker 1: we want you to produce because we want to use

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Speaker 1: it as evidence. And there's a really important point to

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Speaker 1: put here, Like a court is saying a court or

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Speaker 1: an official of the court or of the government is saying,

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Speaker 1: we want you to do this because we have this

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Speaker 1: lawsuit going on and you have something we need. But

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily the judge saying, and the judge is

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Speaker 1: signing off on it. It's really a lawyer or of

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Speaker 1: for one side of the other saying, hey, I heard

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Speaker 1: that this person has the secret tape and I need

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Speaker 1: to get my hands on it, Judge, can you order

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Speaker 1: this person to bring it to me so that I

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Speaker 1: can enter it into evidence. And then the judge says,

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Speaker 1: speak to my clerk, and then the clerk of the

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Speaker 1: usually the clerk of the judge who's handling that case. Um,

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Speaker 1: they say, talked to the hand. Yeah, and they'll generally

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Speaker 1: issue it on uh, unlike official court letter head and

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Speaker 1: official documentation. It's not like the judges washing their hands

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Speaker 1: of it necessarily. No, No, I'm sure like if they

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Speaker 1: do something egregiously wrong with the judge is gonna hear

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Speaker 1: about it and punish them, that's right. And then it

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Speaker 1: served um, usually in person, uh kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: hand it to you like on the TV shows and

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Speaker 1: in the movies. Yeah, either by a sheriff's deputy or

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Speaker 1: a process server. Yeah, but not always it it depends

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Speaker 1: on if it's congressional um, or if it's you know,

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Speaker 1: civil regular josh mos stuff. Yeah. Well yeah for sure.

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Speaker 1: But I think even if it is regular civil josh

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Speaker 1: Mos stuff, you can still go higher the sheriff's department

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Speaker 1: to serve papers, to serve a subpoena, Oh for sure.

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Speaker 1: I think the congressional ones are not served by a sheriff. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I see who do they use? I think it depends

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Speaker 1: it could. I mean the way congressional subpoena's work is

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Speaker 1: all sort of dependent on the individual committee that's seeking subpoena,

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Speaker 1: So they all have their own individual rules about like

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Speaker 1: whether you need a majority vote to even get a subpoena,

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Speaker 1: or whether the chair of that committee is you know,

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Speaker 1: has the power to h grant or request to subpoena. Right,

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Speaker 1: I've read some of them know that it's a real

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Speaker 1: downer to get a subpoena, says some congressional committees used

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Speaker 1: that mascot from the nineteen eight four Olympics, the Eagle

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Speaker 1: to come issue your papers to you. I don't remember

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Speaker 1: that one. You don't remember that eagle? Now? Was this

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Speaker 1: like a cartoon eagle from? Yeah? I mean all I can.

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Speaker 1: I can't get past the Atlanta Olympics mascot. That's why

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Speaker 1: I can't get back to nineteen eighty four? Was it?

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Speaker 1: What's it? Or who's it? I don't even know. It

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Speaker 1: was one of those two. What was that thing? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. It was a last last minute thing. What

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Speaker 1: was the name it was? What's it? Or who's it

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Speaker 1: was it? Yes, yes, man, it was bad. I was

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Speaker 1: out of town. I fled. You didn't miss anything. But

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Speaker 1: I do remember watching the opening uh whatever they're called,

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Speaker 1: the opening opening ceremonies, and seeing the stainless steel pickup

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Speaker 1: trucks driving around and just thinking, oh boy. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: I for those of you who are like, they've talked

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Speaker 1: about this before, yeah, we have, and we're still that

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Speaker 1: upset about it. We'll talk about it again in five

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Speaker 1: more years. We haven't forgotten. Yeah, stainless deel pickup trucks

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Speaker 1: they haunt. I have dreams about those trucks. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: they're just circling you playing striper at the loudest possible volume. Man. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So we've got different kinds of subpoenas, but both of

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Speaker 1: them apply to either courts of law or Congress. So

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Speaker 1: there's one big question that most people who get a

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Speaker 1: subpoena ask themselves the moment they're served the paper, and

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Speaker 1: that is, can I ignore this? Do I have to

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Speaker 1: do this right? We get what happens to me if

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Speaker 1: I just pretend like I never got this, And that's

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Speaker 1: really tough to do. I was reading about process servers

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Speaker 1: and Um, they people who are issuing the subpoena or

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Speaker 1: the lawyer who's asking for the subpoena to say, they

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Speaker 1: want some sort of proof that says you got that paper,

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Speaker 1: so they have to. Um. There's like certain rules and

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Speaker 1: regulations to serve to serving somebody with a subpoena, so

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Speaker 1: it's really difficult to pretend like you're not, like you

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Speaker 1: didn't get it, and a lot of people actually go

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Speaker 1: to a tremendous amount of trouble to avoid being served

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Speaker 1: as subpoena. They will like move around, they will pretend

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Speaker 1: they're not home. They won't let anyone else answer the

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Speaker 1: door because in some states you can leave it with

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Speaker 1: a competent thirteen year old or eighteen year old. They'll

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Speaker 1: stick their hands in their ears and go la la la,

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Speaker 1: la la la. Right exactly, they'll do a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff to keep from being served. But that's actually it

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Speaker 1: will just delay being served in the long run, you

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Speaker 1: will still there's other remedies they can use. They can

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Speaker 1: mail it to your house certified mail, and if the

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Speaker 1: male person says this was dropped off made it to

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Speaker 1: their house, that's enough. Or if you can say I

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Speaker 1: took the numbers off my mailbox where you get to

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Speaker 1: do now, chump um. They can actually post an ad

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Speaker 1: in the local legal organ the newspaper, and then that

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Speaker 1: will be considered serving you. So either way, you're going

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Speaker 1: to end up being considered to have received the subpoena eventually,

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Speaker 1: and if you do, you probably shouldn't ignore it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it says here in this article which most

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Speaker 1: of this is from the House Stuff Works article about subpoena's,

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Speaker 1: but it says, you know, it's a lot easier if

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Speaker 1: you just go or produce the documents. But as we'll

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Speaker 1: cover here and a lot of this congressional oversight stuff,

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Speaker 1: that is not the route that people take generally in government. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I thought it was kind of an oversight to

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Speaker 1: not say, like, but also, if somebody serves you with

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Speaker 1: the subpoena, like go you don't necessarily have to hire

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, but at least consult with one, like get

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Speaker 1: some legal advice, say this is what I got, you know,

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Speaker 1: what what should I do with this? Is this? You know, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of questions that you should

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Speaker 1: have answered before you just act down a subpoena. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, when it comes to ignoring subpoena's. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that's what a lot of this will be about,

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Speaker 1: is um is what's going on with our government right

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Speaker 1: now and previously and what happens if you defy Congress

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Speaker 1: And is there any accountability for that or can you

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Speaker 1: just sit on your hands say nope? But there have

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Speaker 1: been some very famous um cases in the past, you know,

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Speaker 1: fifteen years or so where subpoenas have been ignored. Uh,

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Speaker 1: starting well, I'm not starting with but we can start

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Speaker 1: with Eric Holder, Attorney General for Barack Obama. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was a big one that was part of the operation, uh,

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Speaker 1: the Fast and Furious scandal. Scandal. Yeah, it was definitely

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Speaker 1: a scandal. It um It from what I remember, it

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Speaker 1: involved like secret gun sales or else. Some guns were

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Speaker 1: like led out into the community to be traced to

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Speaker 1: see who they went to, and one of them ended

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Speaker 1: up being used to murder an ice officer I believe. Well,

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Speaker 1: Attorney General Eric Holder refused, under direction of Obama, to

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Speaker 1: answer that subpoena, and he became the first sitting cabinet

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Speaker 1: member to be voted in contempt of Congress. That right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you know you're like, oh, what happens in well,

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Speaker 1: three and a half years later, a judge ruled Um

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Speaker 1: that he did not have the right to defy Congress.

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Speaker 1: And by that time there was a new Congress, and

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Speaker 1: it was a moodpoint. That's a really big big thing

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Speaker 1: to remember, is like a contempt of Congress vote where

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Speaker 1: you are supposedly in trouble for ignoring a subpoena, only

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Speaker 1: lasts as long as that session of Congress, unless the

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Speaker 1: next session of Congress wants to pick it up. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but then they have to hold another vote. And the

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Speaker 1: chances that that the that there has been a change

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Speaker 1: in leadership potentially in that Congress is you know high

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Speaker 1: enough that if you if you make it through that Congress,

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Speaker 1: you know, um, going into recess, you're you're probably going

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Speaker 1: to get away with it. And I mean that's par

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Speaker 1: for the course. It wasn't just Eric Holder who got

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Speaker 1: away with it. Um, Harriet Myers, who was a White

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Speaker 1: House counsel, the George W. Bush. There's like a mass

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Speaker 1: political firing of U S attorneys and Um yep, and

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Speaker 1: she and I think chief of staff at the time,

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Speaker 1: Joshua Bolton were both held in contempt of Congress and man,

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Speaker 1: if you look up, like you know, follow up reporting

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Speaker 1: on this stuff, it's like, you know, while it's going

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Speaker 1: on there like they could face fine jail time. Finally

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Speaker 1: I found some follow up. There's like nothing nothing happened,

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Speaker 1: Absolutely nothing happened. There's no legal ramifications, there were no

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Speaker 1: personal ramifications. There was nothing happened whatsoever to Harriet Myers

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Speaker 1: or Joshua Bolton or Eric Holder for just saying Congress,

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Speaker 1: the United States Congress, go sit on it, which is

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Speaker 1: essentially what you're saying when you ignore a subpoenis yea.

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Speaker 1: And because of this um you remember represented of darryl

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Speaker 1: Issa probably by name, he was uh he was involved

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Speaker 1: in trying to get Eric Holder, you know in the room,

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Speaker 1: and he was so mad he sponsored or intro to

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Speaker 1: bill to strengthen subpoena enforcement power, and uh it died

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Speaker 1: in the Senate. And before we, uh, I think we're

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Speaker 1: about to take a break. Before we do that, that

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Speaker 1: we should mention that currently White House Counsel Don McGann

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Speaker 1: um has refused to testify or refused to uh answer

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Speaker 1: his subpoena under direct order of Trump and UM right

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Speaker 1: now he's being sued by the House and he he

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Speaker 1: in particular provides a an unusual situation because at least

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Speaker 1: with Harriet Myers, or with Joshua Bolton or with Eric Holder,

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Speaker 1: when they were directed by the president at the time

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Speaker 1: not to um submit to that subpoena from Congress, they

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Speaker 1: were part of the president's staff. Don McGann was instructed

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Speaker 1: not to do not to cooperate with the subpoena after

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Speaker 1: he had already left civil service. He was no longer

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Speaker 1: part of the executive branch. So that definitely makes it unusual.

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Speaker 1: But if you're sitting there and your head is popping

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Speaker 1: and you're saying, how wait, how this is Congress, How

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Speaker 1: can the president just say just ignore that subpoena and

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Speaker 1: people get away with it. There's actually a lot of

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Speaker 1: case law that's been built over the centuries that kind

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Speaker 1: of establishes that. And I say, Chuck, we take a

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Speaker 1: break and then we'll dive into that after this. So, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: there's something about subpoenas, whether they're issued by Congress or

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Speaker 1: by a court of law. Um, when you get them

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people don't realize, uh, they're negotiable.

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Speaker 1: That's one really big reason to hire a lawyer is because, um,

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Speaker 1: they it may be overly broad, it may be kind

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Speaker 1: of a fishing expedition. It may put you at risk

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Speaker 1: to come forward and give this testimony or to hand

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Speaker 1: over these documents. And if you'll if you hire a

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Speaker 1: lawyer and say, hey, these are the things I'm worried about,

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Speaker 1: they can go and argue to the judge like, hey,

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Speaker 1: how about we just limit this subpoena to these documents

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Speaker 1: rather than everything on my client's hard drive. Or it's

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Speaker 1: really a big hardship for my client to make it here, um,

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Speaker 1: and the fifteen dollars a day that the court's paying

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Speaker 1: him for coming to testify isn't actually going to cover it,

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Speaker 1: So you know, can we can we negotiate a higher

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Speaker 1: fee or something like that. There's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: that can be done. But this is a technic that's

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Speaker 1: also used with congressional um subpoenas too, where say like

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Speaker 1: the executive branch will go, m I think that this

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Speaker 1: is a little overly broad, but maybe we could give

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Speaker 1: you this document. Will that satisfy you go Nope? Sometimes

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Speaker 1: they say yes, though, and part of that negotiation comes

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Speaker 1: out of the subpoena process. It's a response to it, um,

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Speaker 1: But none of it would have any effect whatsoever if

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Speaker 1: Congress didn't have any redress for um, for enforcing its subpoenas.

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Speaker 1: If somebody ignores it. Yeah, I mean, technically there are

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Speaker 1: fines in jail time sort of looming. But the more

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Speaker 1: I read about this stuff, especially when it comes to

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Speaker 1: Congressional oversight, the more it became clear that none of

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Speaker 1: that stuff really happens. It's all just dangled out there

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Speaker 1: as a means to negotiate, uh something with each other

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Speaker 1: over a pretty long period of time usually for sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that Eric Holder thing was it was like four years

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Speaker 1: before he finally handed over the file um, and I

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Speaker 1: think Congress had already gone out of session, you said,

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Speaker 1: And it was basically just the whole thing had died down,

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Speaker 1: which I think is basically the the stalling tactic that

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Speaker 1: people ignore subpoenas for like that's why they're doing it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So technically, if you defy Congress, the committee that issued

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Speaker 1: that subpoena is going to vote to issue a citation,

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Speaker 1: a contempt citation, and then it's got to go to

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Speaker 1: the full chamber to vote on it. And if that

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Speaker 1: goes through and it passes, which it has before. Then

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Speaker 1: there are three three basic ways that you can prosecute

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Speaker 1: that charge, right, and each one is worth Yeah, pretty

340
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Speaker 1: much like this is. We would never give official legal advice,

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Speaker 1: first of all, because we're not lawyers or even trained

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Speaker 1: as lawyers. But from what I can tell, there's just

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Speaker 1: nothing happens to you if you ignore a congressional subpoena.

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Speaker 1: But most people respond to it because I feel like

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Speaker 1: the further down the UM food chain you are, the

346
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Speaker 1: more likely Congress is to do something in retaliation to you. Yeah, well,

347
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Speaker 1: let's let's go through the three at least fine, if

348
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Speaker 1: for no other reason than pure folly. So if they

349
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Speaker 1: if they vote in in that contempt citation goes through UH.

350
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Speaker 1: It is then under the control of the executive branch.

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Speaker 1: And you think, oh great the president or oh great

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Speaker 1: the president. It's really neither is the Justice Department, which

353
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Speaker 1: is part of the executive branch. It's up to them

354
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Speaker 1: to decide whether or not they're going to prosecute UH criminally,

355
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Speaker 1: and they're going to say no, They're gonna say then

356
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Speaker 1: we'll talk a lot about executive privilege coming up, but

357
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Speaker 1: they will usually cite that UM and decline to prosecute,

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Speaker 1: basically kind of saying, uh, you know what, we don't

359
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Speaker 1: get involved in this stuff, right. So so that is

360
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Speaker 1: specifically when it comes to subpoenaing something from the White

361
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Speaker 1: House or the executive branche. Now, if the if if

362
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Speaker 1: Congress is being ignored by say like the owner of

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Speaker 1: the Houston Astros, they can go to the d o

364
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Speaker 1: J and say, Hey, the Houston Astros baseball team owners

365
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Speaker 1: ignoring a subpoena, We want you to go after the guy,

366
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Speaker 1: and they'll go after the guy. It's when it's executive

367
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Speaker 1: privilege that's being cited that the d o J says,

368
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Speaker 1: you know how, it's our jurisdiction to decide whether to

369
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Speaker 1: prosecute this stuff. We're going to decline to do that

370
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Speaker 1: because it's our own people and we're just going to

371
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Speaker 1: consider this an internal executive branch. Matter Number two is uh,

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Speaker 1: the civil judgment, right, and that's when you need the

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Speaker 1: courts to basically enforce this. Go into court and saying

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Speaker 1: we need your help to enforce this civil suit against

375
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Speaker 1: somebody who stiff this right, Like, you know how you

376
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Speaker 1: can go arrest somebody and put him in jail, can

377
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Speaker 1: you do that on our behalf basically, but this is

378
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Speaker 1: super slow, like turtle like slow. Yeah. But I think

379
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Speaker 1: the idea is that, um, the thought that maybe somewhere

380
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Speaker 1: a couple of years down the line, there's going to

381
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Speaker 1: be a judgment against you where you're going to have

382
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Speaker 1: to pay a hundred thousand dollars to Congress or something

383
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Speaker 1: like that. There's been like twelve months in jail. Will

384
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Speaker 1: get you to to the table to negotiate, you know,

385
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Speaker 1: what documents they actually want or what testament money they want? Yes,

386
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,239
Speaker 1: just leverage, right. So the third one is something that

387
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: isn't used anymore. Really. It's called inherent contempt power was

388
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 1: last used in nineteen thirty five. And this is you know,

389
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Speaker 1: this is sort of the jail thing. And while there

390
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 1: is no capital jail, they do have a holding cell. Yeah,

391
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Speaker 1: and like the sergeant at arms of the Senate or

392
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Speaker 1: the House, depending on who's issuing the subpoena and who

393
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Speaker 1: voted to UM told you in contempt, an armed officer

394
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Speaker 1: of the Congress will show up and say you're under arrest.

395
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Speaker 1: Congress says you're under arrest. You have to come with me.

396
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Speaker 1: Um or as has been kind of boom um bounced

397
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Speaker 1: around lately by UM Democrats in the House, replacing the

398
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Speaker 1: idea of jailing somebody, of arresting and jailing them with

399
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: a much much stiff refined than people have traditionally faced,

400
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Speaker 1: something more on the order of I think between twenty

401
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Speaker 1: five thousand and two d and fifty thousand dollars I

402
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: think a day actually for for ignoring this kind of stuff,

403
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Speaker 1: which we guess that would get people moving if they

404
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: actually go through with that, Yeah, I would think. So

405
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Speaker 1: get him in the pocketbook, yeah, I mean that hard.

406
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Speaker 1: That's and it pluses the government too. So it's like, hey,

407
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Speaker 1: you know these text credits you're getting, we're taking those

408
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Speaker 1: away in this text return that you were expecting. We're

409
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Speaker 1: gonna hang on to that. Like that's this is where

410
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: they could actually do something. Yeah, I think so. If

411
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Speaker 1: it's not congressional subpoena, if it's just like we're talking

412
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Speaker 1: about a regular court subpoena, it all depends on what

413
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Speaker 1: jurisdiction you're in and the presiding judge that's on that case. Yes,

414
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: but again, because you can be arrested as a matter

415
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Speaker 1: of routine course of of a court, UM, you really

416
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: should respond at least to a subpoena or else. You know,

417
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Speaker 1: the chances of something happening to you from a court

418
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: of law are much higher than Congress apparently. So, Um,

419
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Speaker 1: can we talk about case law? Yes, finally we got

420
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Speaker 1: all that boring stuff out of the way. Yeah, this

421
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: first one is kind of interesting. Um. And the way

422
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: the judiciary works in this country is just super fascinating

423
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Speaker 1: to me. The older I get, the more I read

424
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Speaker 1: about it. I'm not becoming illegal wonk by any means

425
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Speaker 1: illegal legal, But I get it, Like, you know, I

426
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 1: get it that people are super into this kind of thing.

427
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 1: I hadn't realized you've gotten into the judiciary. Yeah, I

428
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 1: think it's pretty fascinating. What got you into it? Just

429
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: like news, following the news or something or yeah, and

430
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: just sort of reading about a case like in this

431
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: case from eighteen hundred, and then you know precedent and

432
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: what that means and when it when it shouldn't matter

433
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: and should matter, like the one from eighteen hundred you're

434
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: talking about US v. Cooper. Yeah, Thomas Cooper, who was

435
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: a scientist and an attorney and a thorn in the

436
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: side of President John Adams in a big way. Yeah.

437
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: So in I think, yeah, the US past the Sedition Act,

438
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: which said that it's illegal to criticize the US government. Unfortunately,

439
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 1: when Thomas Jefferson came into office, he said, then we're

440
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: gonna kind of do away with that and keep it

441
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: away forever as much as we can. Um. But there

442
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: was a guy named Thomas Cooper, who, like you said,

443
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: was a thorn in the side of John Adams, and

444
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: he was arrested and prosecuted during a time when the

445
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: Sedition Act was still in effect, and he he lost

446
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: his case. But the way that it relates to subpoenas

447
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: and ignoring subpoenas, and specifically the executive branch ignoring subpoenas,

448
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: is that all the way back in eighteen hundred, when

449
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: the United States was just a couple of decades old,

450
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: this guy, Thomas Cooper, tried to subpoena John Adams to

451
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: come testify as part of this case. And the court said,

452
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: we don't really subpoena presidents. We decided, and that's that

453
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: a precedent for the rest of history. It basically said

454
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 1: presidents are accepted from the goings on in normal court stuff,

455
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: even when they're directly related to the case. They don't

456
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: have to come, right But that same case, he said,

457
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: but you can subpoena someone from Congress. That's a big

458
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: one too. That was a big one, Um Cooper. It

459
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: didn't work out for Cooper, like you said, he was convicted.

460
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: So none of that mattered except for establishing this president

461
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: President President, you got it in this case. You could

462
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: say it either way, I guess so. So that moves

463
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: us on to seven years later, um U s v.

464
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: Burr Um. This is John Marshall. Chief Justice John Marshall

465
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 1: headed this one up and basically this had to deal

466
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: with President Thomas Jefferson UM saying, Hey, they want you

467
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: to come to provide these documents. It was a doozy's teacum,

468
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: right do says dose two cease Dooce's teacum. And Jefferson

469
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: was like, hey, here are some of those documents that

470
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,719
Speaker 1: you want, and they're like but where the rest of him?

471
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: He was like, you know, I'm not gonna give you those,

472
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: And I'm also not going to show up because you

473
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: know what, I gotta be presidenting. Yeah, I'm the executive

474
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: branch is too powerful and too or no, too important.

475
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: It's the only branch that's supposed to be open seven

476
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: three six, and I just can't get away, like I'm

477
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: my my work is too important to come be part

478
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: of this, and that gets I think it's less and

479
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: less um able to prove these days. I think, yeah,

480
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: for sure, like you can take off a half a day, right,

481
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: you've got a BlackBerry, you can definitely email, keep keep

482
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: tabs on work while you're gone. But yeah, so I

483
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: thought the same thing too that it does does not

484
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: hold water, but it does set a president for the president.

485
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: Like you were saying to UM in those two cases

486
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: basically say together again, the president doesn't have to come

487
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: be part of this, and um, executive privileges is I

488
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: guess where this came from from this particular the case

489
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: where it's saying like, now the president doesn't have to

490
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: have anything to do with this and the president's documents

491
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: or the president's business and can't be subpoenaed because we're

492
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: going to call this executive privilege, right. And there are

493
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: five basically, uh five types generally of executive privilege that

494
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: have been used thus far. One is presidential communications. Number

495
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: two is the deliberative process. Number three is attorney client communications.

496
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: Big one, uh fourth one is law enforcement investigations. And

497
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: the fifth one is anything uh that's sensitive in terms

498
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: of military or national security or diplomatic relations, that kind

499
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: of thing. And that's the one in particular that UM

500
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: has been upheld over the years is the idea that UM,

501
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: like the there are secrets that the White House has

502
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: that it just needs to be kept or else people

503
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: are going to lose their lives or else, diplomatic ties

504
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: are going to be upset, that kind of stuff, and

505
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: so those should be protected under executive privilege. But the

506
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: rest of the stuff has been subject to scrutiny over

507
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: the years, for sure, Yeah, because obviously an executive president

508
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: is going to try and draw that privilege as broadly

509
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: as possible. Oh yeah, for sure. And that's that's especially

510
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: been the case ever since Nixon onward, at least, where

511
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: there's this idea called UM the unitary Executive theory, which

512
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: is basically, like, you know, these are separate branches of government,

513
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: and the executive branches in charge of everything to do

514
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: with The executive branch has none it's none of Congress's business,

515
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: and the UM the executive is basically this extraordinarily powerful

516
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: single person, and that's been UM attempted to be invoked

517
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: improved time and time again in throwing off congressional oversight.

518
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: And that seems to be kind of what we're in

519
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: the midst of right now is a really big test

520
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: of this unitary executive theory in saying, like, no, not

521
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: only just the president, but the your president staff, and

522
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: in fact, the entire executive branch can ignore subpoenas from

523
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: Congress because Congress doesn't have any authority over the executive branch.

524
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what we're witnessing right now. And

525
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: on the one hand, well, there really there's really just

526
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: one hand. The great value of having an executive like

527
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: almost a UM, well a unitary executive is that if

528
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: you're a vested interest or a very powerful group um,

529
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: you've only got one person to to change over to

530
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: your side, rather than five hundred of them, you know

531
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: what I mean. So it's it's very dangerous. It also

532
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: very much flies in the face of the three branches

533
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: of government and the checks and balances that each one

534
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: is supposed to have over the other, because part of

535
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: part of Congress's role is what's called congressional oversight that

536
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: says we're responsible for making sure you're not getting out

537
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: of control the president, the executive branch has veto power

538
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: saying Congress, you guys are nuts. This is this is

539
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: no law that should be passed. I'm going to say

540
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: no to this law. And then the judiciary has judicial review.

541
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: They get to say this law is unjust or this

542
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: UM executive agency's action is illegal. UM. And by doing this,

543
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: these three branches keep one another from getting too strong.

544
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: And the unitary executive theory flies in the face of

545
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: that and says, nope, the executive branch is more powerful

546
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: than all of them. The other two don't have checks

547
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: over them, and let's just see what happens from here.

548
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: That's right. Should we talk about Watergate? Yeah, so everyone,

549
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: we should do a full episode on Watergate. I think

550
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: I've said that before. I agree, but um, everyone knows

551
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: what happened there. President Nixon was involved in some hinky

552
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: activities and uh congressional committees. There was one special prosecutor

553
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: in particular name Archibald Cox, who said, wait a minute,

554
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: you've got these secret tapes you've been taping people in

555
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: the Oval office. Turn them over. Here's a subpoena. We

556
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: demand that you turn that over. Along with some other stuff,

557
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: and we want you to come here and testify as well.

558
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: And of course Nixon was like, I don't think that

559
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: stuff's gonna happen. Um, here you go. Here's some of

560
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: these tapes. Just ignore all the parts where it seems

561
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: like it was heavily edited and sounds real funny because

562
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: someone who was just in the room was no longer

563
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: in the room, and there are non sequiturs all over

564
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: the place. It's like that videotape of the guy who

565
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: got the high score in Donkey Kong. Right, yeah, you

566
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Um, But executive privilege was what

567
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: what he claimed he was protected by. So this went

568
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court in nineteen seventy four with United

569
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: States v. Nixon, and Chief Justice Burger's opinion sided everything

570
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: from Justice Marshall's Marbury v. Madison to the one we

571
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: just talked about, United States v. Burr. And basically it's

572
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: they're they're walking a fine line there with the judiciary

573
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: because they're saying, listen, the president needs to be confidential

574
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: and protected when executing these duties, these constitutional duties, on

575
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: the one hand, but on the other hand, uh, due

576
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: process of laws is an is an important thing, and

577
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: that's what we're in charge of. So they kind of

578
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: ended up wanting to protect each of the branch's needs.

579
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: It seems like, yeah, and they I think they did

580
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: a very good job. And the fact that it was unanimous, UM,

581
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: I think Rehnquist was involved with some of the people involved,

582
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: so he um recused himself from voting, but it was

583
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: unanimous eight to zero vote saying no, you gotta hand

584
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: the tapes over because we don't think that you're just

585
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: trying to protect um, like intelligent secrets or military secrets

586
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: or diplomatic secrets. We think you're just basically using the

587
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: cover of executive privilege to cover your own behind and

588
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: that does not supersede due process in a court of law,

589
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: which is going on over here with you know, the

590
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: trials of these guys who broke into the water Gate. Um,

591
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: so you gotta hand over the tapes, and in doing so, you,

592
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: like you said, he cited UM another case Marbury v. Madison,

593
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: And that's a really really important case in here too,

594
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 1: which I think we should talk about starting now. Well,

595
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention another quick thing, um, before you

596
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: dive into Marbury. Another case US v. A. T. And T.

597
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: This just basically laid out that the courts are only

598
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: going to get involved if everyone really tried in good

599
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: faith to work it out beforehand. So like basically said,

600
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: we're the last stop here. Don't just go run into

601
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court or the courts in general to figure

602
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: this stuff out for you, right, Although I think that

603
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 1: the Constitution says that the Supreme Court are the ones

604
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: who are supposed to be running the show when it

605
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: comes to like a high enough official. A case regarding

606
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: a high enough official, Oh yeah, all all A T

607
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: and T. The case said was you have to really

608
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: try to work it out amongst yourself before it even

609
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: gets to us. I got you, Okay, yeah, gosh, I see,

610
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. Yep ye faith of course.

611
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: So right, So in Marbury versus Madison, that one basically said, hey,

612
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: there's this one component here. Yes, the the um we've

613
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: established that the legislative branchs um Congress can issue subpoenas,

614
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: and that the executive branch can exert executive privilege and

615
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: say no to some subpoenas under some cases. But um,

616
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: we're also going to say In US v. Nixon in

617
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four that the court can say no, you're

618
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 1: right to secrecy. Is is um overshadowed by a right

619
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: to do process in most cases. But the one that

620
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: was that really says at the center of this is

621
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: the judiciary and that the judiciary has a right to

622
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: decide cases where the legislative and executive branches are in dispute.

623
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: Is this Marbury versus Madison case from I think eighteen

624
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: o four, and it was, from what I understand, a

625
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: master stroke of um legal eagleness by by Justice John Marshall. Yeah.

626
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: So is along and short of that one that that

627
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: Secretary of St James Madison he was trying to withhold

628
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: the commission of William Marbury. Was that the case, Yeah,

629
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: because the outgoing Adams had packed the courts with friendly

630
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: judges and the commissions had not all been mailed out,

631
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: and Madison was withholding some and they basically said, listen, man,

632
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: you can't do this like it is your job. You

633
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: shall commission all the officers of the United States. It's

634
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: like right there in black and white, and you lose, right.

635
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: So that was one part of it. But what Marshall

636
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: figured out and what made this a master stroke of

637
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: legal legalness is that the Um there was a something

638
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: called a a writ of mandamus, which basically says you

639
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: have to do this, which had been granted to the

640
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: Supreme Court in Um the like an act. In sev. Nine,

641
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: Marshall said, so, yes, Um, Madison has to give this

642
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: over like this is just part of his duties, and

643
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: he's following a law that Congress made, so he's subject

644
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: to that law as a minister of the government. But

645
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: at the same time, the rid of mandimous power that's

646
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court has been given were is unconstitutional. We're

647
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: not in a position to issue a rid of manimous

648
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: because under the Constitution we're not given that right. And

649
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: so in doing that, he established the Supreme Court as

650
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: the interpreter of what law is constitutional and what isn't.

651
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,439
Speaker 1: And he did that by saying, this law that gives

652
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: us this amazing power is unconstitutional. So he did it

653
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: by taking power away from the Supreme Court. But in

654
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: doing so he gave the Supreme Court a tremendous um

655
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: a tremendous advantage over the centuries in interpreting what law

656
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: is constitutional and what isn't and placing itself as the

657
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: arbiter of disputes between the legislative branch and the executive branch,

658
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: which is I mean, that's a lot of what the

659
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: Supreme Court decides is constitutionality and it's it all comes

660
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: from the A ten oh four case landmark legal legal.

661
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: Should you take another break? Sure? Man? All right, we'll

662
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 1: take another break and talk a little bit about a

663
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: little bit more about Nixon and what some other presidents

664
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: have done when slapped with the saboena right after this,

665
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: so we all know what happened to Nixon. Um, but

666
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: the Justice did rule that, hey, dude, you gotta comply

667
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: with this Deucey's tectum here and you gotta turn over

668
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: these tapes. So Nixon uh turned over tapes. He did,

669
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: and it all worked out in the end. Everybody's like,

670
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: this is what you were protecting. This is fine, man,

671
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: state president for a couple more terms, and he did,

672
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: and the world was a better place for it, that's right. Uh.

673
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: Flash forward to uh to Bill Clinton. That was okay.

674
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 1: So he said, hey, listen, man, what goes on and

675
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: that was much better. What happens in the Oval office

676
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: stays in the oval office. Executive privilege. Um, they're like

677
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: even that stuff. And he said, well, you know it's

678
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: it's executive privilege falls under executive privilege. So he said,

679
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: I have executivemmunity, I have that privilege, and UM, neither

680
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: me nor my aids have to respond to these subpoenas.

681
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: And then he fell into line. Eventually new Gingrich got

682
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: him into line. Well, yeah, and and largely because of

683
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: US v. Nixon. UM, they said, you know what, you

684
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: can't stand by this broad executive privilege, stand behind this

685
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: wall that you've built. You're gonna have to comply. And

686
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: he did eventually, right, which is traditionally what happens, Like

687
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: the Congress issues subpoenas, executive branch ignores it, the the

688
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: Congress holds the executive branch in contempt, and the judiciary

689
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: comes in and almost always says, no, you're over exerting

690
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: your executive privilege to what they're saying, yeah, which you

691
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 1: know that gives me hope because in the past president

692
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: has been set that due process wins out over executive

693
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: privilege kind of across the board, it seems like. But

694
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: that that only holds um as long as two things

695
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: are upheld. One that UM, the Supreme Court is an

696
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: independent body, regardless of who appointed the judges. And then

697
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: two if the as long as the executive branch recognizes

698
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: the authority of the Supreme Court. This is where we

699
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: are starting. Like some people can see far enough along

700
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: this horizon that hey, this path we're heading down right now,

701
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 1: there's a point where we could reach where they could

702
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 1: be there could be a Supreme Court decision that says, yes,

703
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: executive branch, you have to hand over these aids for testimony.

704
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: They have to come testify about um, you know, Russian

705
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: interference in the two thousand and sixteen election, or this

706
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: call between the president and the Ukrainian president UM. And

707
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: the executive branch still says no. And that is the

708
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: point that everyone says, we have no idea what happens?

709
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: Then we have no idea. Do you go arrest these

710
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: you know, the secretary of the Treasury. Do you go

711
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: arrest these cabinet members? This has never been done before,

712
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 1: Like what remedy do you really have? And that's where

713
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: that's where we are with testing out this unitary executive theory.

714
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: How far can you kick the um the kind of

715
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 1: unwritten rules of the constitution, Well, there's lots of written

716
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 1: rules with Constitution, but also like the the unwritten rules

717
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: and procedures that kind of have have guided all of

718
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: this for so long. What happens when those things just

719
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: stop being recognized as valid. What do you do? Well?

720
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, because in the in the past, through

721
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: our history, and this is on both sides of the

722
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: of the aisle, Democrats and Republicans have always, uh, not successfully,

723
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: but they've always tried to argue that courts should not

724
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: get in the subpoena battles and should not get involved

725
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: with uh this executive privilege claim, right, and in particular,

726
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: Trump's latest um, Trump's legal counsel's latest position, which I

727
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: think came out in September of this year, is it's

728
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: a doozy. It basically takes And here's here's something we

729
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: need to remember here, Like this is not brand new

730
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: with Donald Trump, right, Like if you if you can't

731
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: stand Donald Trump, this is this is his White House.

732
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: His administration is building on stuff that previous presidents have

733
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: built on both Democrats and Republicans alike. There has been

734
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: a real push basically since Nixon, to to instill as

735
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 1: much power into the presidency and the executive branch as possible,

736
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: and this is a an extreme version of that, but

737
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: it's still kind of following the same path. But what

738
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: they're what they're doing is more aggressive than what previous

739
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: administrations have done. And they're basically saying this, if you

740
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: subpoena us, uh, the executive branch, If you the Congress

741
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: subpoena one of our people, any of our people, for

742
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: any reason whatsoever, the President can say, no, do not

743
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: do not respond to that subpoena, do not go before Congress,

744
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: do not hand over those documents. I'm the president, I'm

745
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: ordering you to. Um. Congress can issue a rid of

746
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: contempt or find the person in contempt, but that's it.

747
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: That's where it ends be Because the president can say, well,

748
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: this is an inter branch dispute between the legislative branch

749
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: and the executive branch. And because the UM, the judiciary

750
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 1: can't be drafted or shouldn't be drafted in to solve

751
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: these disputes. UM, that's all it will remain is an

752
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: inter branch dispute. And in the Supreme Court really has

753
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: no purview in deciding these cases. And when you have that,

754
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: then that means that the executive branch has been removed

755
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: from the oversight of law, it becomes above the law.

756
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: The law no longer applies to it. And so whatever

757
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: the president wants to do, whatever the President directs his

758
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: or her agencies to do, is a de facto legal

759
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: just because the president and the executive branch are not

760
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: subject to the laws of the land, including rulings by

761
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: the highest court in the United States. That's what the

762
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: latest argument is setting us up for. Yeah, I mean,

763
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: this is what the Justice Department. There was a great article,

764
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: uh and the wh im Post by Harry Littman called

765
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: the Justice Department's outlandish and arrogant position on congressional subpoenas. Uh.

766
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: And this is from the article. It said, according to

767
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: the Justice Department, there is no constitutional or statutory basis

768
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: for a congressional committee to try to enforce his subpoenas

769
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: in the federal courts where the executive branch has decided

770
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: not to do so. Right. So basically, yeah, they said no,

771
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: and so they said no, and yeah, and all of

772
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 1: this arose from an opinion, um, regarding Trump's tax returns,

773
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: I believe. Yeah, that's sort of where the whole thing

774
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: got started. Yeah, where the Treasury Secretary Stephen Manuchian said no,

775
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: we're not doing that, and Congress said, well, we're holding

776
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: you in contempt. And then the Legal Office of Legal

777
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: Counsel from the White House issued this opinion, and I

778
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: mean it's a doozy, but it's also saying like, what

779
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: are you guys gonna do? What can you do? And

780
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: that's that's the that's the big question now well, and

781
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 1: it makes you wonder what would have happened if darryl

782
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: Isa's UH bill had gone through? That makes um subpoena's

783
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: super enforceable because you know, we've seen it on again

784
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: on both sides of the aisle, where one UH one

785
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: political party will get mad and and vote something in

786
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: that will come back to staying them later on on

787
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: the hind end. It is. But also you also can't

788
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: help but wonder, like will like is our republicans um

789
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: loyalty to Congress greater than the republicans loyalty to the

790
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: executive branch? Like there's it's like you know, in any restaurant,

791
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: there's tension between the white staff and the kitchen staff,

792
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: but they're all working at the same restaurant. They're all

793
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: trying to do the same thing. We just get high quality,

794
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 1: nourishing meals out to the patrons who are citizens like

795
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 1: you and me. Right, but there's still tension. You're not

796
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: you're not doing it fast enough for you. You burn

797
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: these fries or something like that. But we benefit from

798
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: that tension. We the patrons of this restaurant that we

799
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: call America. Well, what what happen? End of the day.

800
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: Every one just goes behind the restaurant and smokes a

801
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: joint by the dumpster. You know, maybe that would make

802
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: our our congress or o government work more efficiently, if

803
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: if the executive branch and the legislative branch and the

804
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: judicial branch all got together and burned a doobie again

805
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: there by the grease trap, right exactly. I don't even

806
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: remember what my analogy was was meant to. But we

807
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: it's fine, but we um like that we are witnessing

808
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: some historical stuff right now that that is not normal

809
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: at all. I mean, like from Watergate stuff, and that

810
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,959
Speaker 1: I'm not even relating to impeachment proceedings. I'm just saying,

811
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: like this level of ignoring congressional subpoenas maybe unprecedented, and

812
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: if not, then the closest historical precedent we have is

813
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: the Watergate scandal. Yeah, but I think Congress is one

814
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: recourse to say that's fine, that's fine, molution, you just

815
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: ignore us. We're going over here as Congress and we

816
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: are altering this um. This our ability to a old

817
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: people to say no, actually we can find you two

818
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: dollars a day and we will do it. That that

819
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: could be the leverage that gets people to actually comply

820
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: with these subpoenas. But we'll find out, because if Congress

821
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: has to actually pass a law to do that, the

822
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: president has veto power over that well. And there are

823
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: also all sorts of other things have nothing to do

824
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: with this that Congress uses this leverage and or negotiation

825
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: tactics like hey, do you want us to push through

826
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: some of these uh appointees or should we just keep

827
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: stalling forever? Um. All kinds of that stuff is on

828
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 1: the table. But when you have a president that comes

829
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: out in January and says, uh, you know what, I

830
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: don't mind stall all you want. I like the term

831
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: acting um because that gives me more leeway, then all

832
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: of a sudden, that's not leverage anymore. You got anything else? No,

833
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 1: very curious to see what happens with this McGan case.

834
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: Probably nothing, and too will it be the crumbling of

835
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: our democracy? Who knows. We'll find out in a few years. Um,

836
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: if you want to know more about subpoenas, we'll just

837
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: go look it up. And if you get a subpoena yourself,

838
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: get a lawyer. Don't be stupid. Uh. And since I

839
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: said don't be stupid, friends, it's time for a listener mail.

840
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna this is about Obama's um healthcare. I got

841
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff about this. I didn't realize I

842
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: made a prediction. Okay, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's gonna

843
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: have been sitting in the in the coffers, guys, about

844
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 1: fifteen months ago, I started my journey through the stuff.

845
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 1: You should know. Archives have been on a steady campaign

846
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: about twelve to sixteen episodes a week. That's healthy. Uh,

847
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: why I'm writing though? Ten years ago, Chuck made a

848
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: bold prediction and the rumors, the myths and truths behind

849
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: Obama's healthcare plan episodes? Did we do like four of those? Um? Wed, yeah,

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00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: I think we did for you're right, but this one

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00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: was specifically about that episode. Uh, Chuck, I said, call

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00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: me in ten years if there are no more private

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00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 1: insurance companies, because that was one of the big knox

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00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: on it. It's like, this is gonna do away with

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00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 1: private insurance and I'll buy you a beer. Magic Um.

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00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: Chuck legitimately said, I'm on record, and he extended the

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00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: bet to anyone out there. Now that statement was more

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00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: of a gentleman's bet than a legal promise. However, Uh,

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00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: that is more binding in my opinion. Nonetheless, I would

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00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: like to congratulate you, Chuck. I was getting worried there

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00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: for a second on the expiration of that term and

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00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: that promissory statement. That could have been a pretty pricey

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00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,479
Speaker 1: liability that things turned out differently. A million beers, Chuck,

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00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: every single one of our listeners would have written in

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00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: and asked for it. That is from Jack Simmons. Nice going, Jack,

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00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 1: and welcome to the club. We're glad you've found us,

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00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: and even more so that you like us, so we'll

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00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: do our best to keep it up for you and

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00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: everybody else that emails a couple of months, although he's

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00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: probably forgotten about it. Sorry, that's right, he's moved on

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00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 1: to Pod Save America. That's right. Uh, Well, if you

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00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: want to get in touch with us like Jack did.

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00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: You can go on to stuff I few Should Know

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00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: dot com check out our social links There. You can

875
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: also send us an email, wrap it up, spank it

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00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 1: on the bottom, and send it off to Stuff podcast

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00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff You Should Know is

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00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more

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00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app.

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Speaker 1: Apple podcasts are where ever you listen to your favorite shows.