1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Married couple. Cal and Michelle Harris were living separate lives 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: under the same roof as their divorce proceedings began in 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: two thousand and one. When Michelle didn't return from work 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: one September night, it was assumed that she'd stayed with 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: friends or with her boyfriend, but when her van was 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: found at the edge of their property, the police focused 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: on her estranged husband, developing circumstantial evidence as well as 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: what appears to have been total fabrications, while dragging Cal 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: Harris through four trials over the course of fifteen years. 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: This is wrongful Conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to 14 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: Ron with Conviction, where we're heading to Tioga County, New York, 15 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: where our guests today. Cal Harris worked for his family's 16 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: auto dealership business while raising his four kids until it 17 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: was all derailed, first by marital troubles, followed by the 18 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: disappearance of his estrange wife, Michelle. Cal I'm sorry you're 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: here because of what you've gone through, but I'm very 20 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: happy and honored to have you with us. Welcome, we 21 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: thank you, and to help him tell this story. We're 22 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: joined by two of his attorneys from Barquette Epstein, Aida 23 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: elyisen Ring and Bruce Barquette. 24 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us. 25 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 3: I'm very happy to be here. 26 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: So Cal, We've got a lot of ground to cover. 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: Let's rewind all the way back to where you grew up, 28 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: the family, the auto business, and then of course we'll 29 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: turn to the tale of you and Michelle. 30 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 4: I grew up in the Binghamton area, about an hour 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 4: north of Scranton, Pennsylvania, and about an hour hours south 32 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 4: of Syracuse, New York. My father started the business back 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty seven with a small Ford dealership in Awego, 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 4: New York. And when my brothers and I were of 35 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 4: age and got in the family business, we grew. We 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 4: had eight dealerships in four different locations. We represented almost 37 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,399 Speaker 4: every major franchise, domestic in import. We had a very 38 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 4: good marketing system, we had a very good business plan, 39 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 4: and we grew exponentially. 40 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: And when and how did you meet Michelle? 41 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 4: Well, Michelle and I started dating in the late eighties, 42 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 4: got married in August of nineteen ninety. Built our home 43 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 4: in ninety two, and then our first child, Taylor, was 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 4: born in ninety four, and then the next year Kayla, 45 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 4: and then Jenna was born in ninety seven, and then 46 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 4: Tanner was born in ninety nine. Michelle is a great mother. Obviously, 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 4: having four young children was a big task for Michelle. 48 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 4: I was working a lot of hours at the family business, 49 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 4: so we had two part time nannies, and then we 50 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 4: had a handful of babysitters, so the kids were well 51 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 4: taken care. We lived on a very beautiful piece of 52 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 4: property and it was a small lake surrounded by two 53 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 4: hundred and fifty acres. We purchased it from Binghamton University 54 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 4: and it was a newdist camp for Binghamton University. 55 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 3: See I finally learned something new. 56 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: Cal Yeah, that. 57 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 4: Was back in the sixties and the seventies. And then 58 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 4: when the newdiest thing kind of ran its course, it 59 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 4: sat empty for years and somebody on the board of 60 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 4: Binghamton University knew my dad and cut us a deal. 61 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 4: We don't live there anymore. I had to sell the 62 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 4: property to pay my legal bills. We'll never be able 63 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 4: to replace that property, but we had our own little 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 4: sanctuary out there, all kinds of woods and nature, and 65 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 4: I taught my kids how to water ski and wakeboard 66 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 4: on the lake behind the jet ski, and we fished 67 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 4: and it was a great run while it lasted. 68 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: And during the happier years for the Harris family. The 69 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: New York State Police, specifically Troops C that operated in 70 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: the southern tier of the state, was while they were 71 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: experiencing discord, and that began what a detective named Harding 72 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: was interviewing with the CIA, and when he was asked 73 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: if he'd break the law for his country, Harding admitted 74 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: to manipulating or fabricating evidence against folks that they believed 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: to be guilty. That kicked off a fourteen month investigation. 76 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 4: A special prosecutor get an investigation on Troop C, and 77 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 4: he uncovers forty instances of evidence tampering by Troop C. 78 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 4: In his conclusion, he says everyone at Troop C was 79 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 4: either directly involved or had firsthand knowledge on it, and 80 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 4: he said it was generational that they were passing on 81 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 4: this behavior to new recruits. And even after that report, 82 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 4: Sue Malby, the lead investigator on my case, gets caught 83 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 4: coercing a false confession out of a fifteen year old boy. 84 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 4: It sends that to prison, and the only reason that 85 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 4: boy gets out is because the adult male that committed 86 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 4: the crime confessed to it. 87 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: And it appears that this pattern of misconduct was applied 88 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: to Cal, whose once happy marriage by March of two 89 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: thousand and one, had devolved, as these things sometimes do, 90 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: into divorce proceedings. Cal and Michelle, meanwhile, we're cope parenting 91 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: and remained in the home together, but they were living 92 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: separate lives. Michelle began socializing more and eventually began working 93 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: at a bar called Lefties in an area known as 94 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: the Valley. 95 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 4: So she's been going down to the Valley and hanging 96 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 4: out at these dive bars and she's partying pretty hard. 97 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 4: She knows what Lefties is, she knows they're dealing drugs 98 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 4: out of there. But she made it clear to me 99 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 4: that what she does outside the home is none of 100 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 4: my business. So the only people that know what's going 101 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 4: on in her life are the nanny barb there, Michelle's 102 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 4: sister in law, Shannon Taylor, and she also had a 103 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 4: friend named Nicki Burdick that was a friend that she 104 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 4: would go out with at night. And party with, and 105 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 4: she had a boyfriend at the time. Through the investigation, 106 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 4: she was also involved with apparently several other guys at 107 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 4: the same time. And I noticed from March two thousand 108 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 4: and one, when she starts to work there till September 109 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 4: of two thousand and one, things get really bad and 110 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 4: she's living a lifestyle that's not healthy for her, not 111 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 4: healthy for the kids. And she'd go to work, but 112 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 4: she wouldn't come home. She would always go out afterwards. 113 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 4: Sometimes she'd go over to her boyfriend's house. Most of 114 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 4: the time she would go out and party and hang 115 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 4: out with these other guys that she's involved with. She 116 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 4: had been frequently not coming home until five or six 117 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 4: o'clock in the morning, and there were some mornings that 118 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 4: she was so hungover she couldn't even watch the kids 119 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 4: and barb theair than nanny had to come over and 120 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 4: take that responsibility. 121 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: But despite the erratic lifestyle, by the summer of two 122 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: thousand and one, tensions between Call and Michelle had died 123 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: down and it appeared that they were going to settle 124 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: the divorce. Michelle had borrowed money from her boyfriend approachases 125 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: a home, so things were looking up when all of 126 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: a sudden they took a terrible turn. 127 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: So the chronology is September eleventh, she wakes up, the 128 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: events take place down in New York City. She works 129 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: that night at Lefties. Her boyfriend testified that she visited 130 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: him and left around eleven or eleven fifteen pm. Nobody 131 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: else saw her that we are certain of, other than 132 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: potentially whoever was at the foot of the driveway with 133 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: her the following morning. 134 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: A witness named Kevin Tubbs later came forward describing this 135 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: scenario and a man who may have been a guy 136 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: named Stacy Stewart. 137 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: Stacy Stewart knew Michelle because they would frequent the bar Lefties, 138 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: and the degree to which they got to know each other, 139 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: I think is up for some debate, but it's purported 140 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: to us by number of witnesses Stewart was interested in 141 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: Michelle romantically. We have evidence that she was at the 142 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: foot of the driveway around roughly five o'clock in the 143 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: morning with somebody who matches Stacy Stewart's description to a 144 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: t and was driving the type of truck that Stacy 145 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: Stewart owned. 146 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: But that wasn't known until after his first conviction. At 147 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: least not by the defense. So after this alleged sighting 148 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: on the driveway on the morning of September twelfth, the 149 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: morning began as usual for Cal the kids. When Cal 150 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: noticed Michelle was out of the couch, he continued about 151 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: his routine getting the older kids ready for school, and 152 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: a little after seven am, when he hadn't seen Michelle yet, 153 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: he called Barblayer for help with their youngest, Tanner, while 154 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: everyone else was set to leave and start their day. 155 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 4: So I called Barb and I said, Michelle's not home yet. 156 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 4: I'm not sure what's going on. Can you help me 157 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 4: get the kids to school because someone's got to stay 158 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 4: home with Tanner. So she said, yep, I'm available. And 159 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 4: a few minutes after I called Barb, Barb, I call 160 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 4: Michelle's cell phone, and because we live in a remote area, 161 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 4: our cell phone coverage cuts out in about a ten 162 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 4: mile radius around our house. And I didn't leave a 163 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 4: message because I just assumed, years and years of doing that, 164 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 4: that she was on her way home, she was within 165 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 4: that ten mile radius, so I don't leave a message. 166 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: Years later, at the first trial, Barb Fayer testified that 167 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: she was the one who made that phone call, even 168 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: though that was impossible. 169 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 4: I called Barb and then four minutes later I called 170 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 4: Michelle's cell phone. 171 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: If you track where she was, she could not have 172 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: gotten to Cal's house in time to make the call. 173 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: And when Barb actually did arrive, she discovered Michelle's van 174 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: at the end of the driveway. 175 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 4: Barb comes in through the garage and she walks into 176 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 4: the kitchen. It says to me, is Michelle here? And 177 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 4: I say no. She says, well, her van's at the 178 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 4: end of the driveway. It's unlocked. I looked in it 179 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 4: and she's not in there. And then I said, well, 180 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 4: are the keys in it? And she says yes. So 181 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 4: we hop in my truck and we go out to 182 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 4: the end of the driveway, and Barb's not upset. In fact, 183 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 4: we had some small conversation on the way out to 184 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 4: the end of the driveway, and Barb's saying things like, well, 185 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 4: maybe she's hungover at at friend's house. 186 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: After Cal drove off with the kids, Michelle's party friend, 187 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: Nicki Burdick, called and according to Barb, there she explained 188 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: to Nicky about Michelle's van. 189 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: There's a voice message from Burdick on Michelle's cell phone, 190 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: You're scaring me, Where are you? What's going on? 191 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 4: That kind of thing, And then Nicky calls Michelle's divorce attorney, 192 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 4: who in turn calls the state police, and that's when 193 00:10:52,000 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 4: the investigation starts. The lead investigator on this case was 194 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 4: Sue Andrew's Mulvey of New York State Police Troops c. 195 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 4: As soon as my name came up, she immediately put 196 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 4: herself on as the lead investigator because for her this 197 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 4: was personal. And the reason it was personal was because 198 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 4: her father, John Andrews, used to work for me back 199 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 4: in the day in one of the dealerships and I 200 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 4: fired him and it was bad blood ever since. 201 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 2: So you had the lead investigator's father having worked for 202 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: Cal and being fired, and the lead prosecutor, Gerald Keene, 203 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 2: his wife was part of the team representing Michelle in 204 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 2: the divorce. 205 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 4: Well, it's the classic case of the small town everybody 206 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 4: it's related to somebody. 207 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: So her divorce lawyer turned his file over right away 208 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: to the state police and it didn't take much for 209 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: the divorce lawyer, Nikki's there and I think the in 210 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: laws the tailors to assume that Cal had something to 211 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: do with this. 212 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: Now, at that point, there was no body. In fact, 213 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: her body to this day has still never been found. 214 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: So the investigators began searching her van, the house, the garage, 215 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: trying to find something incriminating. 216 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 4: Steve Anderson, he's supposed to be the forensic expert. He 217 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:41,239 Speaker 4: immediately comes in and starts testing the sub millimeter stains. 218 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 4: There's like a dozen altogether sub millimeter stains in the 219 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 4: garage and in the kitchen as you come into the house. 220 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: The first thing that he did is he saw what 221 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 2: he thought was blood spattered on the wall in the garage. 222 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 2: It turned out that was non human dog's blood. 223 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 3: Well there is the cookie or pasta sauce on the 224 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 3: ceiling as well. It's very disappointing that it turned out 225 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 3: out to be blood. 226 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: But Anderson eventually did find some human blood stains. 227 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 4: So he tests these stains, and the protocol that he's 228 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 4: supposed to follow is that when he comes down to 229 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 4: what he believes to be a crime scene, he's supposed 230 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 4: to observe and take notes, then photograph, and then he's 231 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 4: supposed to test with his cotton swab and his solution. 232 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: But that's not what he does in my house. He's 233 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 4: taking his cotton swab, which he admits one of the 234 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 4: stains he totally consumes as he's testing it, but he 235 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 4: doesn't take a photograph before he does it, so we 236 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 4: have to take his word for it. But the reality 237 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 4: is he's the one that's altering the stains, and then 238 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 4: he says it's me trying to clean up these sub 239 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 4: millimeter stains. 240 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: So Anderson's missteps were eventually presented as evidence of some 241 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: alleged post murder cleanup effort, when in reality that blood 242 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: had likely been there for quite a while. 243 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: They said that the blood was red, therefore fresh, that 244 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 2: it had to be depositive within a few days. That 245 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: was two lies. One, the blood wasn't that color, and two, 246 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what color it is, because the scientific 247 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: community agrees you can't age blood based upon its color. 248 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: Sometimes it turns brown very quickly, and sometimes it stays 249 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: red for an inordinate amount of time, and they haven't 250 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: been able to figure out the variables that would cause 251 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: the blood to turn colors in some amount of time. 252 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: It turns out that there was a known explanation for 253 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: that blood spatter as well, and we're going to hear 254 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: more about that later. Now, without any known witnesses. The 255 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: police began interviewing family, friends and community members, not about 256 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: what you would expect them to ask about, which is 257 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: anything they may have seen regarding Michelle's disappearance, but instead 258 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: they sort of narrow focused on Cal. 259 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: I think that the way the police conducted their investigation 260 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: throughout the entire community, they led everyone to we think 261 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 3: Cal did it. 262 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 4: I had friends of mine who didn't buy into the 263 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 4: state police narrative and questioned the state police, well, what 264 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 4: do you mean you know that Cal did it? And 265 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 4: when the state police wouldn't answer, you know how they knew, 266 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 4: then my friends were like, well then what are you doing? 267 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 3: Then they had random people and witnesses fill out FBI 268 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 3: profiles like does he ever get mad? Has he ever 269 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: done this? Has he ever done that? Day after day, 270 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: multiple witness interviews, the news, the chatter, the town talking. 271 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 3: Another day goes by where her body isn't recovered, and 272 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 3: the zealousness with which they tried to investigate Cal, Like 273 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 3: that gets you in the entire community in the mindset 274 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 3: of let's get him. He's getting away with murder. Because 275 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 3: the police believed that. 276 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: There the babysitter who came over right away started to 277 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: create a diary documenting the things that were going on 278 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: at the house, thinking she was helping the police. 279 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 3: One of his former neighbor's friends says, let me rack 280 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 3: my brain. I do remember, and this is one of 281 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: my favorite little details. I do remember. He kept trying 282 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 3: to clean his glasses and the natural implication was that 283 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: there was blood spatter on them, and it's like Macbeth 284 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 3: trying to clean the blood off the hands. They interviewed 285 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 3: people in Canada, like, oh, he was on vacation in Canada. 286 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: We hear that the jet skier got into a verbal 287 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: dispute with him. They interviewed girlfriends from high school. I mean, 288 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 3: they turned his entire life upside down and found nothing. 289 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 3: But when you have all of these little, tiny pieces 290 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: of nothing burgers together and they've completely assassinated his character, 291 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: and in a. 292 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: Case that is largely circumstantial, those elements become admissible, contrary 293 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: to a case with direct evidence of guilt, in which 294 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: the defense has a better idea of what the issues are. 295 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: But in circumstantial cases, the state weaves a web from 296 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: these disparate elements that would normally be inadmissible but together 297 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: and create an appearance of guilt and that can overwhelm 298 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: a traditional defense. And by two thousand and five, sure enough, 299 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: cal was indicted. And it seems that the prosecution felt that 300 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: they had enough to do that, but the first two judges, well, 301 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: they disagreed. 302 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 3: The first judge reviewed the grand jury minutes and the 303 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 3: transcripts and gave a heads up to the prosecutor and 304 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 3: to the defense attorney, I'm dismissing this case. It's insufficient. 305 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 3: What does the prosecutor do? The next day he files 306 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 3: a formal motion to recuse the judge, stating that he's 307 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 3: given the appearance that he favors the defense, and ultimately 308 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 3: pits his oath of office against that of the judge, 309 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 3: as the judge claims, sort of requiring at that point 310 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 3: the judge to get off the case because of the 311 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 3: animosity and the claims that are made by the prosecutor. 312 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 3: So he did, and a new judge was assigned, and 313 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 3: that judge also dismissed the case, indicating that the previous 314 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 3: judge's decision stands and it's insufficient. So it got dismissed, 315 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 3: and then they went on to represent the case and 316 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 3: put on more witnesses. In two thousand and seven, they 317 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 3: try the case in front of a jury pull frankly 318 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 3: that have been polluted by the police investigation, no Cal, 319 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 3: and have strong opinions about the case. 320 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: Ultimately, the state's trial narrative was that Cal killed Michelle 321 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: sometime late on September eleventh, citing no signs of forced entry, 322 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: the alleged blood evidence, the looming divorce and custody proceedings, 323 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: as well as some circumstantial witness testimony, some of which 324 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: were just outright lies. Now, as we mentioned, the morning 325 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: of Michelle's disappearance, Cal called Barb Thayer for help with 326 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: the kids and then called Michelle, but didn't leave a voicemail. 327 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: So Keen, the prosecutor, in a deposition that we took 328 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: about four years ago, admitted that if Cal had placed 329 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 2: the call at seven point fifteen, and had he been 330 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: the killer, in other words, he knows he's calling a 331 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: dead person's phone, he would have left some contrived message 332 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: about I'm worried about you, where are you, why aren't 333 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 2: you home with the kids, something like that. And Keene 334 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 2: admitted if he made the call and didn't leave a message, 335 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: he couldn't have committed this crown because there's no way 336 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: he would have made the call and not left the 337 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: message had he did it. Once they realized that they 338 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 2: got there to say she got there in time to 339 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: have made the call, despite the fact that they had 340 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: asked her about this multiple times and she never said 341 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: she made the call, and in fact denied it, and 342 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 2: then got on the stand and testified that she had, 343 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: and it was clear that they had convinced her that 344 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 2: she had to say that otherwise the case against Cal 345 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: would kind of blow up in the first instance. 346 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: This is what pisses me off about circumstantial cases. Now 347 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about voicemails, the cell signal for a ten 348 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: mile radius Barb's location when Cal called. Instead of tackling 349 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: direct evidence of what happened to Michelle, the defense is 350 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: left scrambling trying to fight a ghost. Almost they're trying 351 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: to defend against an image of guilt that the prosecutor 352 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: is only just sort of peeling away the layers of 353 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: and revealing during the trial. 354 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: With circumstantial evidence, lay people go, oh, it's just a 355 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: circumstantial case, and there's a stigma associated with that word 356 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 3: that there's not much evidence. But they can be some 357 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: of the most falsely convincing cases because the government or 358 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 3: the prosecution is permitted to use otherwise impermissible, non relevant evidence, 359 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 3: often negative character evidence, and they stay to the court, Oh, 360 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 3: this is one of the little pieces of the puzzle 361 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 3: that we need to build up this case because it's circumstantial, 362 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 3: and the judge goes, well, i'll allow it. I'll give 363 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 3: them some leeway. And then it's every single rock that 364 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 3: builds this massive mound that you can't escape from. 365 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: When in reality it's nothing but an exhaustive climb straight 366 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: up bullshit mountain where you have to dispel this minutia 367 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: or discover the misconduct underlying it before it's too late. 368 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: And this case has plenty more like Col's a legend motive. 369 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 2: If you look at the summations from the trials, you'll 370 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 2: see that they ascribe the mode of the cow. The 371 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 2: divorce case, there was a trial date set for November 372 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 2: of that year, and so they said he had to 373 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: kill her because he was about to go to trial 374 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: and all these fees were going to come do and 375 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: there was a thirty thousand dollars appraisal fee that he 376 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: was going to have to pay, and he was going 377 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: to have to pay his lawyers, and he was going 378 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: to lose everything, and that couldn't happen. That was all false, 379 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: and I think knowingly false. The divorce case had just started. 380 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: There wasn't a single deposition taken, very little, if any 381 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: discovery had been traded. That was no more ready for 382 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: trial than I am ready to fly a jet. It 383 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: just wasn't ripe yet. And the worst part of that 384 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: whole fabricated motive was that the case had been resolved. 385 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: In the fourth trial, we had Cal's lawyer come on 386 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 2: and testify that Michelle had accepted the offer, that the 387 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,479 Speaker 2: case was resolved, and as I need to point it out, 388 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 2: she bought a house. This was done. And even Barbara 389 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: Thayer and Burdick, who were adamant that Cal had done this, 390 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: admitted that by the summer of two thousand and one 391 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 2: things had calmed down. They weren't fighting at all, and 392 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: Michelle had resolved that she was going to buy a 393 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 2: house in town and it's was over. 394 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: But without this context, at the first trial, the prosecution 395 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: had created an urgency for Cal to act that was unimpeached. 396 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: Then we move on to the blood evidence, if you 397 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 1: can call it that, and as we mentioned, they had 398 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: said the blood was fresh because it was still red, 399 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: when not only was it not red, but color canton 400 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: doesn't indicate age. And then it got even more misleading. 401 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 2: Henry Lee, who was their expert, famous from the OJ 402 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 2: case and several others. Keene asks him could this have 403 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 2: come from a cut on her finger? And Lee says, 404 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: of course it could have, but the jury will want 405 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: to see a cut in the finger, and they go 406 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 2: back and forth, laughing about the burden of proof. 407 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: Obviously, the dark joke here is that there is nobody 408 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: so good luck with proving that this was from a 409 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: simple cut. But remember the prosecutor, Gerald Keene, his wife 410 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: was on Michelle's divorce team, and so Keene asked that 411 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: question about a cut finger, having seen the file from 412 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: Michelle's divorce attorney. 413 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 2: He doesn't tell Lee what he knows, which is that 414 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 2: Michelle fell or if you believe her, was pushed by 415 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: cal into the snow, cut her hand a few months 416 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: before this and walked back in through the garage, which 417 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: is where the blood was. So he didn't ask that 418 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: question randomly, kind of speculating he knew that Michelle cut 419 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 2: her finger because his wife drew up the affid David 420 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: that Michelle filed in court, saying that she cut her hand. 421 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 3: And there's more. The prosecutor then goes on to profer 422 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 3: evidence from every single witness that ever knew Michelle. Did 423 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: you ever see her bleed? 424 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: No? 425 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 3: Did you ever see her with a cut on her hand? No? 426 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 3: Was she bleeding during the time of September of two 427 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 3: thousand and one. No, So he knew that she'd cut 428 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 3: her hand. He knew that her path to enter the 429 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 3: home was where the droplets were found, and he was 430 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 3: aware that there was a plausible explanation for it. He 431 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 3: hid that plausible explanation, and then he went a step 432 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 3: further and created opposite in culpatory information that he knew 433 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 3: to be false. 434 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: But the jury was unaware of this context, so they 435 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: were left with the appearance that this blood was fresh 436 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: and that it had been shed on the night Michelle disappeared. 437 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 3: They convict Cal within hours, and a witness comes forward 438 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 3: who hadn't really thought about the case, but then sees 439 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 3: the reports of the conviction and he reaches out to 440 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 3: Cal's defense attorney, who's now a judge, Joseph Colly, and 441 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 3: he says Hey, I didn't think it was Michelle that 442 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 3: I saw, because everyone said she disappeared. But I think 443 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 3: it was because it looked just like her, and it 444 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: was at the foot of that driveway, and it was 445 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 3: with an individual, but it wasn't Cal. And he describes him, 446 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 3: his height, his build, his hair color, he describes what 447 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 3: they're doing, he describes her vehicle, he describes his vehicle 448 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 3: model to a t. 449 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: So this was Kevin Tubbs describing what he claims to 450 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: have seen around five am on September twelfth, Michelle standing 451 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: with a man and his truck, matching the description of 452 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: Stacy Stewart, who was believed to have been romantically interested 453 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: in Michelle. So Cal's lawera filews what's called a three 454 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: thirty motion presenting Kevin Tubbs as well as another person 455 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: who described a similar scene that morning. 456 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 3: The prosecution went furiously after both of them in a 457 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 3: three point thirty hearing, going as far as using sealed 458 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 3: documents to cross examine one of the witnesses who had 459 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 3: previously a case dismissed, but ultimately that conviction is overturned 460 00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 3: after a three thirty hearing. 461 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 4: I get out in November of two thousand and seven, 462 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 4: and then my next trial is two years later. 463 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 3: They retry the case in two thousand and nine and 464 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 3: he is new trial council should have seen it coming. 465 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 4: I tried this guy from Albany, Terry Kinlin. There were 466 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 4: certain things I wanted done in the second trial that 467 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 4: we didn't do in the first trial. Promised me he 468 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 4: was going to do him never did so. 469 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: Even with two witnesses who claimed to have seen Michelle 470 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: with a man who was not cal and knowing how 471 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: the circumstantial evidence came together, his attorney just simply didn't 472 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: effectively dismantle the building blocks of this circumstantial smoke screen, 473 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: some of which were provable lies. 474 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 4: And I testified in my second trial and Jerry Keene 475 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 4: doing his closing argument, he says as to the jury 476 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 4: that cal Harris wants you to believe that all these 477 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 4: witnesses came in here today and lied to you, and 478 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 4: that he's the only one telling the truth. And the 479 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 4: reality is that's exactly what happened. All the key witnesses 480 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 4: were lying. But you know, there's nothing you can do 481 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 4: waiting for the jury's verdict that moment. I had to 482 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 4: go through that four times. I still have nightmares about 483 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 4: those moments, and I can't watch another crime show. They 484 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 4: always show the verdict. I can't watch it. I'm incarcerated 485 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 4: a month in two thousand and five, for six months 486 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 4: after my conviction in two thousand and seven, while the 487 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 4: three point thirty hearing was being processed. And then I'm 488 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 4: convicted again in two thousand and nine, and this time 489 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 4: I wind up going to the Auburn Correctional Facility. Every 490 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 4: time I was incarcerated and I'm sitting in my cell, 491 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 4: time comes to a complete stop. Every minute is an hour, right, 492 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 4: and you're ripped away from your kids and you're worried 493 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 4: about them. My first conviction in two thousand and seven, 494 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 4: Taylor would have been eleven, Kayla would have been ten, 495 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 4: Jenna was eight, and Tanner was six. I think at 496 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 4: the time, and I'm the only parent they've got. My 497 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 4: kids were young and at that time in their life 498 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 4: is as a parent, it is the most joyful when 499 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 4: they're young and growing up and you do all these 500 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 4: fun things together and we couldn't. We couldn't do anything, 501 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 4: We couldn't plan anything. Every special moment when I wasn't 502 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 4: in prison, every birthday, every holiday, Christmas, whatever. We're sitting 503 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 4: around and I'm sick to my stomach right, I can't 504 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 4: enjoy moment. I'm trying to put up a good front 505 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 4: for my kids so that they can enjoy the moment. 506 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 4: But I'm sick to my stomach every single minute of 507 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 4: every day because I don't know what's going to happen. 508 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 4: It was torture for fifteen years having to live that way. 509 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: But during that time, cal learned a great deal about 510 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: the evidence rules that paved the way for circumstantial evidence cases, 511 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: and it appears to have had roots in the prosecution 512 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: of other bodyless murder cases. 513 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 4: In eighteen fifty, it was the first time that New 514 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,479 Speaker 4: York allowed a bodyless murder case. Prior that you couldn't 515 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 4: convict somebody in New York without a body. The mentality 516 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 4: was that they didn't want someone who was cunning enough 517 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 4: to dispose of the body to get away with that, 518 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 4: so they changed the rules of evidence. And one of 519 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 4: the things that one of my previous attorneys built, so 520 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 4: Easton argued in the appeal, was the pendulum has swung 521 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,479 Speaker 4: too far in New York. It went from eighteen fifty 522 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 4: where you couldn't convict somebody unless you had a body 523 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 4: to the Cal Harris case now in two thousand and nine, 524 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 4: where you went too far. There's no evidence here, and of. 525 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: Course it didn't hurt to have alternate suspects that upended 526 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: the state's theory. Nevertheless, the conviction was overturned an insufficiency 527 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: of evidence, making way for a third trial. And that's 528 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: when Cal hired Barquette Epstein. 529 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: Remember now we got the case and had seen the 530 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 2: movie already, right, so we had two trial transcripts to 531 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: go off of, and Aida and I and Donna Eldea, 532 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: who tried the case with us. We talked about the 533 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: fact that you have all these facts and I'll put 534 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: that in quotes, facts that the prosecutor used to build 535 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: a circumstantial case. And then we said, we have to 536 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: challenge all of the ones that we know to be 537 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: false or that are challengeable. And the jury, when we 538 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 2: did that, are looking at you because they don't understand 539 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: why we arguing about who made a phone call or 540 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: why are we arguing about where certain things were the 541 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: divorce proceedings, Because they didn't understand how this is supposedly 542 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 2: all going to come together for the government. In neither 543 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: of the first two lawyers, frankly, because they didn't have 544 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: the preview that we had, so they just kind of 545 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: let that stuff go. For the most part, we had 546 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 2: to dig in and fight each one of those facts. 547 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 2: So you could say that's not what happened. You can't 548 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 2: use that as a building block because it's false or 549 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 2: flawed in some way. 550 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: So in addition to presenting the alternate suspect witnesses, they 551 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: exposed Barb Thayer's deceit as well as the alleged motive. 552 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: And then there was the alleged freshness of the blood 553 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: and alleged cleaning efforts, all supported by the state's quote 554 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: unquote expert Henry Lee. 555 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: So we called up all these lawyers that had either 556 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: hired him or dealt with him, and pulled all these transcripts, 557 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: and you realize that the guy is nothing more than 558 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 2: a really a whole. He would say anything for anybody. 559 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 2: And the end of the cross I had transcripts from 560 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: a trial he did in the Carolinas where his justification 561 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 2: for that theory was in opposite of what he was 562 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 2: saying about cal like literally, you couldn't held both opinions, 563 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: and so he essentially gave up and said you're right, 564 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: and that was it. And it went so well with 565 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: Henry Lee on the third trial they never brought him 566 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: back again. 567 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, a fourth trial was necessary. Despite dismantling the circumstantial 568 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: evidence and exposing them as conduct, the jury was hung, 569 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: so they considered waving a jury. But not all judges 570 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: are created equal. 571 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 4: I mean, for me, it was clear that a circumstantial 572 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 4: case like mine was too complicated for a jury, and 573 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 4: I just felt that I'm zero for three. What do 574 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 4: you do? It's worth a try. 575 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 3: It was a big risk. But we wanted to judge 576 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 3: who had conviction. 577 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 4: In balls balls. 578 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 3: I wanted to say ball, I don't know why, I'm 579 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 3: like hiding words. We wanted to judge who had balls, 580 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 3: and we wanted to judge who was really smart. He 581 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 3: had both of those things. And we looked up decisions 582 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 3: he had issued in the past, and we did more. 583 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 2: Than read his decisions. If you remember, I eate it. 584 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 2: We spoke to people who knew him. He had been 585 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: a defense attorney for a long time, tried about a 586 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: dozen murder cases, so he was experienced, and they said 587 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 2: to us, he's going to do what he thinks is right. 588 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 2: Trust us. If he thinks your guy's guilty, he's going 589 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 2: to go down. And we were in the back talking 590 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 2: about jury selection and I eat it. Donna and I 591 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: looked at each other and I'm like, okay, let's do this. 592 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 2: And I literally went like this. I said, come out. 593 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 2: He's like, what do you What do you mean? I said, 594 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: you're it, judge. He says, what do you mean? I'm it? 595 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 2: So we're waiving a jury and he lost his temper. 596 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 2: What started yelling at me? You think because I was 597 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 2: a defense attorney, I'm going to quit your guy. I'll 598 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 2: tell you something. I'll convict him. Quicker just went off 599 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 2: on me. I'll be honest. He scared me enough. If 600 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,800 Speaker 2: I was there alone, i'd have backed off. I think 601 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: Aida was like, no, we can still do this, and 602 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 2: Donna was, now, he's just blowing smoke. He'll be fine. 603 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 3: There have been so many judges that had said this 604 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 3: case was insufficient to go forward that we thought a 605 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 3: smart judge with balls will finally put this to rest. 606 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 2: He comes out and he says, there's one count in 607 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 2: the indictment, murdering the second degree. I'm the soul trial 608 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 2: or fact in this case. I find the defendant not guilty. 609 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 2: Bales exonerated, bangs his hand on the bench, and I 610 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 2: turned to my left to see Cal and Aida and Donna, 611 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 2: and by the time I turned back, he was gone. 612 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 3: And Cal turned to me and said, what just happened? 613 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 3: Is it not guilty or guilty? 614 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 4: I couldn't even hear. I couldn't hear you. 615 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, head, but your kids heard it. 616 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, It's just like a ton of bricks come on 617 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 4: my shoulders. Finally, after fifteen years, we're able to look 618 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 4: at each other and know that we're going to be 619 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 4: a family, and we can start making plans going forward, 620 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 4: which we couldn't do for fifteen years. 621 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 2: His oldest son got in the cornel that day, May 622 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 2: twenty fourth, twenty sixteen. 623 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 4: But the damage is done. We're all suffering in one 624 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 4: form or another. It's never gonna go away, only because 625 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 4: this case has garnered so much attention and she's still missing. 626 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 4: You know, That's what keeps everybody watching, is that she's 627 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 4: still missing. And I'm getting death threats to this day. 628 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 4: I've been assaulted several times now since my acquittal. I 629 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 4: have to look over my shoulder every day I leave 630 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 4: the house. 631 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: All because a circumstantial case can be that falsely convincing. Meanwhile, 632 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: the team held a May twenty twenty five press conference 633 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: where Cal and his children offered a one hundred thousand 634 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: dollars reward for information that would lead to finding Michelle's remains. 635 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 2: We have a pretty good idea of what happened to her, 636 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 2: at least who was involved, and there are people who 637 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: know what happened, and we're hoping that the money will 638 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 2: be the incentive that they need. Just for a moment, 639 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: imagine that we do this, that we find her. It 640 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: would be unbelievable. And we've looked. It's not that we 641 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: haven't been looking. I aid it was with me in 642 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, this summer, digging up an outhouse with a 643 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 2: couple of investigators in a backo. 644 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 4: Oh boy. 645 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 3: I used to be an editor at l magazine before 646 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 3: I decided to go to law school. I used to 647 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 3: get free loot, go to runway shows and there I 648 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 3: am surrounded by five retired detectives and Bruce and a 649 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 3: couple of shovels going through an outhouse. 650 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: But I'd say it's arguably more meaningful work. So we're 651 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: going to go ahead and link ways to contact bark 652 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: at Epstein in the episode descript as any new information 653 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: could also help them in their next fight. 654 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 2: October twenty seventh, we have the federal Civil Rights trial, 655 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: and this is where the hunters have become the prey. 656 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 2: The defendants are Gerald Keene, Steve Anderson, and Susan Mulvey 657 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: State police in the County of Tioga. We hope to 658 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 2: put on a persuasive case not only is Cal obviously innocent, 659 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 2: but that what happened to him was fundamentally wrong, a 660 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 2: violation of his constitutional rights, and they should be held 661 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: to account for that. 662 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: And with that, we're going to go to closing arguments, 663 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: where first of all, I'm thanking you all from the 664 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: bottom of my heart for being here today and courageously 665 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: sharing this harrowing story. I don't know how else to 666 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: put it. And then I'm just going to kick back 667 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: in my chair and listen to anything else you feel 668 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: is left to be said. So let's do it in 669 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: alphabetical order. Aida. Let's start with you, then Bruce, and 670 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: then Cal can take us off into the sunset. 671 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 3: It has been such an eye opening experience to see 672 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 3: the level at which lawyers have to work it's a 673 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 3: herculean task to actually exonerate somebody, especially when the prosecution 674 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 3: and the police make it personal. And we left no 675 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 3: single piece of paper unturned. And I remember seeing cal 676 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 3: angry during moments of the trial, and there's no question 677 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 3: to me who actually knows the evidence as opposed to 678 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 3: a lay person that watched forty eight hours that he's innocent, 679 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 3: and his anger and his bitterness and his love for 680 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 3: his kids and his grace and compassion while he was 681 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 3: actually incarcerated is all a testament to that. So it's 682 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 3: been an incredible teaching moment. I'm very grateful that he 683 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 3: trusted us and that I got to participate in it, 684 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 3: not just for him, but for is four incredible, spectacular kids. 685 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 2: We've been lucky enough to handle a number of cases 686 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 2: that involved wrongful convictions, and a product of that is 687 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 2: we get solicitations regularly from people who are in prison 688 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 2: saying that they're innocent. And one of the things that 689 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 2: you see is people who are innocent look at the 690 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 2: process as an obstacle. People who are guilty who are 691 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 2: looking for a way out look at the process as 692 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 2: an opportunity. So you meet with somebody and they tell you, 693 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 2: I didn't do it, and then they start talking to 694 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 2: you about all the evidentiary issues that come up. What 695 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,919 Speaker 2: was wrong the grand jury, this didn't happen, they didn't 696 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 2: do that right, the four persons didn't sign the indictment 697 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 2: and all this stuff. The people who are innocent are 698 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 2: a an open book, and b say, I don't give 699 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 2: a damn about the rules of evidence. They are obstructing me. 700 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 2: They're screwing me. They're stopping me from proving that I 701 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 2: didn't commit this crime. And that was cal from the 702 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: moment I met him until this day. He's been an 703 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 2: open book and said, what do you want to know? 704 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 2: Where do you want to look? Search my house, search 705 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 2: anything you want to do, any question you ask is 706 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 2: fine with me. And had no patience for the intricacies 707 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 2: of the courtroom and the rules of evidence. I think 708 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 2: he kind of touched on it here that he feels 709 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 2: screwed by them, and rightly so. 710 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 4: And for me at this stage, I want justice. I 711 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 4: want Sue OVI and Steve Anderson and Jerry Keen held accountable. 712 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 4: I want to see them in that courtroom. I want 713 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 4: to see them on the witness stand. I want them 714 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 4: to know what it feels like, I mean, they're never 715 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 4: going to go to prison. Well, they're never going to 716 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,839 Speaker 4: be held accountable. If we do win. If and there's 717 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 4: damages awarded, they're not going to have to pay. But 718 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 4: I want them to know what it feels like to 719 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,720 Speaker 4: be on the hot seat, whether we win we don't. 720 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 4: I'm hoping that we're able to show the public what 721 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 4: they did behind the scenes. There's a lot of people 722 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 4: right now that have switched their opinion of me, and 723 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 4: I'm hoping that more people will switch their opinion once 724 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 4: they see the evidence that we're going to present, and 725 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 4: I've already put it out there on my podcast episode three. 726 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 4: You're gonna see most of the evidence that we're putting on. 727 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 4: But then I know there's people out there they're never 728 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,919 Speaker 4: gonna believe anything. Even if we do find her, They'll 729 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 4: still think I'm guilty. But I want justice for me 730 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 4: and my kids, and that's all I can ask for 731 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,760 Speaker 4: at this point. 732 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 733 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one 734 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for 735 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our 736 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,359 Speaker 1: production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as 737 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clive. 738 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time 739 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us 740 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and 741 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram 742 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of 743 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. 744 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported 745 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed 746 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: by the individuals featured in this show are their own 747 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,879 Speaker 1: and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.