1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: Kay Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a 2 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible 4 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with 10 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. 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As many 29 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: of you have now found yourselves home educating the kids 30 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: in your life, I wanted to bring you a great 31 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: book that you might want to add to your library 32 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: called Daddy, Why Am I Brown? By Dr Bedford Palmer. 33 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: Dr Palmer joins us on the podcast today to talk 34 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: to us about talking to kids about race. Dr Palmer 35 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: is a licensed psychologist, an associate professor, and the interim 36 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: chair of the Counseling Department at St. Mary's College of California. 37 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: He holds a PhD in Counseling psychology and researches issues 38 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: related to social justice and cultural factors. Dr Palmer maintains 39 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: a small private practice in Oakland, California, where he works 40 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: with a diverse clientele and provides multicultural competence training to 41 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: individuals and organizations. He's also a past president of the 42 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: Alameda Psychological Association and producer slash, co host of the 43 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: Naming It podcast, and the author of Daddy, Why Am 44 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: I Brown? A healthy conversation about skin color and family. 45 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: Dr Palmer and I chatted about how to talk with 46 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: kids about race in a way that's developmentally appropriate, the 47 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 1: work we need to do as adults to have these 48 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: conversations in a way that's healthy, and he shared some 49 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: of his favorite resources, including six free lesson plans in 50 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: case you need them. If you hear something that resonates 51 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: with you while listening, please be sure to share it 52 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag TPG in session. 53 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, 54 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: Dr Palmer. Yes, I'm excited to have you. So you 55 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: are the author of a new book called Daddy, Why 56 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: Am I Brown? And I know that this is a conversation. 57 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: You know, I would say probably over the past year, 58 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: we've seen lots of conversations about parents and talking to 59 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: their kids about race, and so I think that your 60 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: book will be a nice one. For people to kind 61 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: of add to their home library to really be able 62 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: to kind of have some of these conversations. But I 63 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: want to start with hearing. Is there such a thing 64 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: as like a child being too young to start talking 65 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: about race? You know, I think that that's a tricky thing. 66 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: You would hope that you could shelter kids from the 67 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: oppressive nature of race and all that stuff, But the 68 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: reality is is that if your child is going to 69 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: be out in the world, if they're going to go 70 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: to preschool, they're gonna walk with you to a store, 71 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: they're gonna be able to understand what's around them. Then 72 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: they're going to encounter race, and they're going to encounter 73 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: their own race. You know, there's a lot of research 74 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: out there that shows that these encounters happen as early 75 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: as three or four years old. So I think that 76 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: it's better to prepare kids and to help them get 77 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: the get an idea of what's going on prior to 78 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: that first encounter so that they can better navigate it. 79 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: Because the way you navigate that encounter experience with racism 80 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: and race and all of that can be profoundly important 81 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: to the way that you're able to cope for the 82 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: rest of your life. We know, like you're saying that, 83 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: Like some of the research indicates that kids have some 84 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: of these experiences as early as three. Are they typically 85 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 1: negative experiences or is it more like kids realizing like, oh, 86 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: all of our skin looks different? Well, you know, it 87 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: very much depends. I don't know if there's a a 88 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: more often case at this point, but I think that 89 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: the way that the racial identity models work, Like Bill 90 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: Cross has a racial identity model, that's kind of the 91 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: beginning of that. But before that, even friends but known, 92 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: this idea of kind of finding yourself as the other 93 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: is what we talked about as an encounter experience. I 94 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: don't think that finding yourself as the other ever really 95 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: feels good when you think the same as everyone else. Um, 96 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: I think that that that's something you have to contend 97 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: with because that otherness, at the very core of that 98 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,799 Speaker 1: otherness is a lie. Right, So I'm not gonna feel 99 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: good to be told that you're something different when really 100 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: our skin color and the differences that are physical on us, 101 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: they're skin deep, they're they're not really important to who 102 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: we are, you know, intellectually, spiritually, our person are centerselves 103 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: are our culture. It's not about necessarily those external phenological 104 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: traits and exeting phenotypical When we are placed into a 105 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: context where race is important, it is this kind of 106 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: true thing that we will be treated differently. So I 107 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: think that kids can kind of be ushered into this 108 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: idea of specifically for black kids, you can be ushered 109 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: into blackness in a really positive way, but you're still 110 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: being ushered into a context of oppression, and there's no 111 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: way to to change that without changing the oppression. Right, 112 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: So you can't like pretend like it's not there and 113 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: shelter your kids from that, because they're gonna be walking 114 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: on the street and it's gonna happen. So I think 115 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: that what we do as elders to children, we prepare 116 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: them as much as possible and give them the tools 117 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: so they can navigate any of these experiences. Fancy. That 118 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: is always my struggle because I am a parent, and 119 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: so you know, it does feel like a very fine 120 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: balance between like helping them to just be proud of 121 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: themselves as young black boys, and also like wanting to 122 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: shelter them, but knowing that you really can't because they 123 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: exist in the world. And so how do you kind 124 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: of assess like what is appropriate to talk with them 125 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: about about the realities of the world at a certain age. 126 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: I think people like to talk about meaning people where 127 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: they are, and I think that that is the way 128 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: that you do it with children. Um, you're not gonna 129 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: you're not gonna come to a kindergarten class and be like, 130 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: let me explain you the duality of identity and and 131 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: two personhood and you know, you're not gonna go into like, 132 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: you know, critical thought in that way because they haven't 133 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: learned the foundations to get to the court where they 134 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: can understand it. But you can't talk about you know, 135 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: what happens when people say mean things to you? What 136 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: happens when people talk about and describe you? What? What 137 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: do you do when you describe other people? You know, 138 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: like when you're talking about someone in the pre k 139 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: age group or the kindergarten age group, were talking about 140 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: fundamental things? What do colors mean? What do printed letters mean? 141 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: How do you print letters? How do you figure out 142 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: the days of the week. So I think that you 143 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: bring it to their space and talk about some of 144 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: the basic, the most basic parts of it. You help 145 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: them to understand, and you don't push them past that. 146 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to you don't have to 147 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: come up with their opinion of what race means. You 148 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: don't have to have them fully indoctrinated into like the 149 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: joy of blackness, but you should have them understand that, like, 150 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: for instance, people will call you black, your skin is 151 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: not black. Your skin is brown, and there's various shades 152 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: of brown. So so that's confusing for them to use 153 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: the wrong color when you're being taught these colors. Here's 154 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why you see what I'm saying there. 155 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: M Yeah, So really like you're talking about like really development, 156 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: really thinking about like what other kinds of things they're learning, 157 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: and how you can kind of couch it in some 158 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: of those same things. Right, it doesn't have to really 159 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: be about well, you know, as adults we're talking about power, 160 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: oppression and privilege and those things. Like kids don't have 161 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: to get all of the scarier parts of it all early. 162 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: Some of it is just like how do you just 163 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: begin to talk about your hair and your color and 164 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: where you're from? Um, And I think that that's another 165 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: piece of it is always like linking You talk about 166 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: the race stuff, but you link it to you know 167 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: ethnicity and culture and help children understand that those are 168 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: different things and they mean different things, that you should 169 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: take different meaning from those things. And so your thought 170 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: is take more of a proactive approach as opposed to 171 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: like waiting for the first you know, maybe negative racial 172 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: experience to happen. Yeah, you don't wait for children to 173 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: encounter bad things generally, like you don't take your child 174 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: out and let them play in the front yard without 175 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: telling them how to deal with the sidewalk in the 176 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: street and the boundary to the grass and people coming by. 177 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: You tell them, you know, don't talk to strangers, don't 178 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: don't go past the sidewalk there, don't run in this 179 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: area there are rocks. You know. You've give them that 180 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: early warning so that they have at least some sort 181 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: of conception of being cautious and and thinking about their surroundings, 182 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: so they can begin to understand that. Yeah. Again, I 183 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: think that this is where I struggle with because you're right, Like, 184 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that analogy because that does help me 185 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: think about it differently. I think where I struggle is 186 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: like introducing like almost this paranoia that of course I 187 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: experienced right as a parent in like an adult in 188 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: the world, but like, not necessarily introducing that kids too young, 189 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: I guess. So the question you have to ask is, 190 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: isn't really paranoia? So I grew up in a predominantly 191 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: white and Asian area of San Diego, and I was 192 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: one of two black kids, three black kids in the 193 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: class most of the time, most most of my life 194 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: as a kid through twelve kids, and I encountered racism 195 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: very early. And some of it was not even direct, 196 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: Like there wasn't necessarily someone dropping in bombs towards me. 197 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: It might just be that the white kids wanted to 198 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: pick on me, and I was the only one getting 199 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: picked on, you know, like there was no difference except 200 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: for the skin color. And I didn't understand what was 201 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: going on, you know, I didn't always understand what was 202 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: happening in those spaces. And having an idea that like, hey, 203 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: you know, this might be going on, they might be 204 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: making the wrong kinds of judgments and they might not 205 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: understand things correctly might have helped to to kind of 206 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: get through some of those spaces. Again, it's not necessarily 207 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: teaching kids the scariest parts of this, but it's about 208 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: the same way you tell kids Hey, you know, if 209 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: your brother or your sister hits you, that doesn't mean 210 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: that you get to hit them back. And here's the 211 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: reasons why, and here's how you deal with like the 212 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: concept of You don't talk about the full on concept 213 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: of forgiveness, but you you do talk about you know, 214 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: you you can't stay mad, you know you have to 215 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: you have to do things to to repair your relationship 216 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: with your kids and between peers and things like that. 217 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: And you find those ways in the language that the 218 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: child can understand so that they can begin to again 219 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: start to develop healthy ways to deal with things that 220 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: will affect them for us our lives. Mm hmm, very 221 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: good points. Thank you for that. So it makes me 222 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: feel like there is like some work that we have 223 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: to do, probably as adults, to like even get ourselves 224 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: ready to like maybe have some of these conversations. You 225 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: have thoughts about that, Oh yeah, you know, honestly, one 226 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: of the pieces of the book is that, you know, 227 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: I spend a lot of my time as a professor 228 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: and as a consultant and as a psychologists helping people 229 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: understand how to have these conversations with themselves as adults 230 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: and how to like navigate systems that are oppressive and 231 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: where you know, you work in a corporate setting, and 232 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: like having to deal with ramifications of systemic racism, you know, 233 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: when you've maybe not had to deal with that so 234 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: much before, or you're you're going to be a counselor 235 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: or a psychologist, and you need to look inwardly and 236 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: understand like how you might bring that into the room 237 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: or how it might be affecting you. So the whole 238 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: point behind or the story, if I can give like 239 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: a quick story behind the book, is that I was 240 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: at home and my wife came home, and she was 241 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: at the time working in a school where they you know, 242 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: had k through twelve kids and they had like kindergarten 243 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: and uh, first grade and whatnot. And apparently there was 244 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 1: like this little little kid who came up to her 245 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: and recounted the story of being told that their skin 246 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: looked like coop by want of their classmates after a 247 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 1: lesson about color and skin color. And of course the 248 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: child was in tears, and you know, my wife was 249 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: like really disturbed by that happening. And then the lack 250 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: of ability to do very much to help fix that 251 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: once it's occurred, you know, and me being you know, 252 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: someone who thinks about this stuff a lot and and 253 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: focuses a lot of career on this is just like 254 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: I had this whole dissonance moment of like, man, I 255 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: want to help this kid, but obviously I can't do 256 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: anything for this child because I don't know this kid. 257 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: And I want to help my wife. She's got to 258 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: process herself. This is about her work. So what do 259 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: I do to not getting her way right now? And 260 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: so being a psychologist I am, I was like, Okay, 261 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: maybe I need to like sit down and maybe write 262 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: something down, do something to self suit And that turned 263 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: from kind of a maybe a post I was thinking 264 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: at first, and then I was like, you know, I 265 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: could help a teacher talk about this. I could help 266 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: parents maybe talk about this. And I just wrote the 267 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: beginnings of the children's book sitting at the kitchen table. 268 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: I wrote it in like, you know, an hour, the 269 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: first draft, because you know, it's not not a lot 270 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: of words in the children's books. But you know, over 271 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: the course of a few years I would find it 272 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: and came back to it and figured out how to 273 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: publish it. But the whole idea was what happens if 274 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: we're able to address some of these issues that adults 275 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: have in adult worlds before their adults, Like what happens 276 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: if they don't have to relearn things, they can just 277 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: learn it right in the first place. And so the 278 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: book itself, it's not just meant for black and brown kids, 279 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: it's actually meant for white kids and and all the 280 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: kids in between, because everyone needs to understand how to 281 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: properly talk about this and think about skin color, race 282 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: and family. Because if the kid who called the little 283 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: girl skin poop would have had someone teach them this 284 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: prior to that, then the little girl wouldn't have had 285 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: her encounter experience. Mm hmm. Yeah, And I mean, I 286 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: think that that is really important, right, like to think 287 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: about how everybody talks about race, because I think that 288 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: is a part of what feels frustrating is that it 289 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: often feels like as black people, we often have to 290 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: have these conversations with our kids, whereas it feels like 291 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: white counterparts don't. But truthfully, if they were having more conversations, 292 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: we might not have to have the same conversations with 293 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: our kids about raised. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that 294 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of the crux of the issue, is that 295 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: if we could just teach kids to understand some of 296 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: this stuff earlier than they would have better tools to 297 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: start to unwind this problem, the issue of racism, oppression 298 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: and all that stuff. I mean, you know, we're adults now, 299 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: and it's it's weird to be in this space because 300 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: you spend so much time being a young person with 301 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: the potential to to want to change and do all 302 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: the things. But I think we're you know, if if 303 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: you're my age group, which you know, early forties and stuff, 304 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: we're getting to that point where we have to start 305 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: really thinking about what the next generation is going to 306 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: do and how we're going to prepare them. And I 307 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: think that that's kind of the energy that I wanted 308 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: to put behind this, is to maybe do something where 309 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: we can prevent some of these negative interactions and prevent 310 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: the need to heal as opposed to just heal. Yeah, 311 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: and so what made you decide on a kid's book 312 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: as opposed to like a book for parents? Well, the 313 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: funny part about children's books is that there are books 314 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: for parents because parents by own parents consume them, and 315 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: parents eventually they're the one who read them to the kids. 316 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: And so my book Daddy Why and I Brown. So 317 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: it has a story for the children, and it has 318 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: like the learning process in there, but it also has 319 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of resources. So there's discussion questions and vocabulary 320 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: and the ideas like if you can talk to your 321 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: child about this, then maybe you're going to learn some 322 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: of this too, And you can come to the book 323 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: without necessarily having a degree and ethnic studies to read 324 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: this book to your child. It's it's it's just meant 325 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: to like give some basics and maybe that can open 326 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: a conversation that continues in the house. Mm hmmm. So 327 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: kind of going back to the earlier conversation around like 328 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: the work that we need to do as adults to 329 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: be able to have some of these conversations with our kids. 330 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: Can you share, like any of the questions from the 331 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: book are questions maybe that you're even asking your practice 332 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: or as you're kind of thinking about your work for adults, 333 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: that maybe can help them to kind of think about 334 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: the spirit they need to come to a process like 335 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: this with I think one of the first things is 336 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: that you have to ask yourself what your relationship is 337 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: your skin color and to your race, and to like 338 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: the way that you see yourself identity wives with sailing, like, 339 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: what are some of the areas that aren't maybe a 340 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: little hot and you might feel sensitive about because you know, 341 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: kids they're gonna ask you direct questions. They're really not 342 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: gonnam mince words. They're just gonna be like, boom, what 343 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: is this? And so as you're approaching this, you can't 344 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: respond with your baggage to your child's question about stuff, 345 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 1: otherwise it's going to transfer it over to them. So 346 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: I think that one of the big pieces is just 347 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: thinking about what would be the healthy way that you 348 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: would have liked to talk about this, to have been 349 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: introduced to this when you're a kid. What are some 350 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: of the things that you anticipate your child to be 351 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: exposed to. You might have this conversation differently depending on 352 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: what kind of roots are around the kids, you know, 353 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: like if you're you're sitting here your child to a 354 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: predominantly white school, then that's gonna be different than if 355 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: you're sending them to a predominant black school or to 356 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: a more you know, multi culture role or diverse school. 357 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: It depends on what kind of home you have. You know, 358 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: the discussion is really different if the family all kind 359 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: of share similar skin tones versus like, for instance, in 360 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: the book, the family doesn't share the same skin tones, 361 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: and they don't share like all the same ethnicity. So 362 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, the mom in the book is multi ethnic 363 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: where she's Black and Chinese, and then the dad is 364 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: African American or he's black. So you know, what do 365 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: you do with those conversations. I think it gets even 366 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: more complicated if you start talking about like adoption and whatnot. 367 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: But I think that it also is inappropriate. I was 368 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: hoping that people who, for instance, who might engage in 369 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: a transracial adoption, could use this book to help them 370 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: healthily have this conversation and use this context. I think 371 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: in the book there's like I I provided some vocabulary 372 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: that I pulled from the Learner's Dictionary. It's vocabulary with 373 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: definitions that kids can understand. So like ancestors, a person 374 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: who with someone's family in past times or herided, you know, traditions, achievements, 375 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: and beliefs. Even like melanin, so the dark brown and 376 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: black substances that is a natural part of people's skin, 377 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: hair and eyes. Like off the top of your head, 378 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: would you just be able to say what melanine is 379 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: to a child? So I tried to kind of think 380 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: about those things in terms of discussions, questions just things 381 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: like what's your favorite color? What makes things beautiful? What 382 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: does it mean for my skin to be different from 383 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: your skin? These are some of the questions that kind 384 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: of come up, and just being able to talk to 385 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: those and make it feel mormal. I think it is 386 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: one of the big pieces that parents and elders and 387 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: uncles and nuntees and whatnot need to be thinking about. Yeah, 388 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: and I think you raised a really interesting point, dr 389 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: Former in that there is likely some work that lots 390 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: of us need to do around our own race to 391 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: be able to really engage in these conversations in a 392 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: way that's healthy for kids. Right, Like, I don't know 393 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: that we even always think about like how you know, 394 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: our ideas about and color and hair and all of 395 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: those things still impact us as adults. As a psychologist, 396 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: you know, the stuff that people bring in to talk about. 397 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: I don't know that any of this stuff has worked 398 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: out for adults, things like colorism and colorism inside homes. 399 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: You know, So which child is a light skin child? 400 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: With child is the dark skinned child? Which which kid 401 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: has a quote unquote good hair and all that stuff 402 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: who looks most like somebody? I mean, those kind of 403 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: things are generational. You know, if you're the if you 404 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: didn't have the lighter skin in the family, and then 405 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: you know roder sists who have the lighter skin get favored, 406 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: then how is that going to come out when you 407 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: have kids who also have variations in their skin? Comes 408 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: what happens when you behave certain ways but between different 409 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: people could see that, you know, so if you're always 410 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: you know, making faces or rolling your eyes or cutting 411 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: your eyes at folks who look a specific way, then 412 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: the kid is going to realize that that's negative, like 413 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: that there's something about that person is negative. And if 414 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: they see enough, they're gonna recognize the pattern in order 415 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: to And I think this is across board with parenting. 416 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: It's not it's not just about race. But if you 417 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: don't want to pass on the traumas and the trials 418 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: and the baggage and all this stuff that comes from 419 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: your life to your child, you do have to unpack that. 420 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, that's where a good 421 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: therapist might come in. If you're thinking about your parenting, Um, 422 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: that's something that we can help with. That's something you 423 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: can come in and talk about and think about kind 424 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: of how do you separate your childhood from your your 425 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: your child's childhood. Very good points. I really appreciate it. 426 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: So are there other resources? It sounds like you do 427 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: have tons in the book, But are there other resources 428 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: that you can kind of think about the top of 429 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: your head that you think would be helpful for these 430 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: kinds of a conversation as well well? I think for parents, 431 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: there's some good books that you can read that can 432 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: give you more context and bring you more into the 433 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: convert station around race and ethnicity and blackness for black folks. 434 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: One is The Psychology of Blacks, which is a book 435 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: that's written by Dr Thomas Farham, Audi saw Jammu and 436 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: es Mario Bossi and Joseph L. White um and that 437 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: really talks about the idea of identity and race from 438 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: a psychological perspective. But like it really just it hits 439 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: on education, hits on like the counter experiences, hits on 440 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: family and family structure. Another book is um I believe 441 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: it's called Black Families, and that's uh Nancy Boy Franklin, 442 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Boy Franklin, Yes, just look up Nancy Boy Franklin. 443 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: If you want to talk about Black families and black kids, 444 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: like you really that that's a good space to go. 445 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: Black Father's Invisible Presence in America. That's edited by Dr 446 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: Michael Connor and Dr Josepha White. There's two editions. There's 447 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: a chapter I'm in in the in the in the 448 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: second edition, but that talks about fatherhood with children, and 449 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: I think that that's, you know, part of where my 450 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: head is in terms of, like I mean, the book 451 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: is about a father and a daughter having a conversation, 452 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: and I think that's kind of an important thing to 453 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: kind of to put forward because of, you know, all 454 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: the stereotypes and all that stuff. I think that the 455 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: stereotypes aren't really real. Black men are very involved and 456 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: very connected to their children in a lot of different ways, 457 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: and I think that like pointing that out. I mean, 458 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: one of the book that came, I was like looking 459 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: at it and I was like, man, I got all 460 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: their goals now when I saw a hair love like, 461 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: oh yes, you know, I mean, such a beautiful way 462 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: of of kind of approaching a situation. And I think 463 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 1: that many black fathers have have experienced, not necessarily you know, 464 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: in in the way that's in the book, but just 465 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: this idea of you know, how do I make sure 466 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: that I'm taking care of my my child in a 467 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: way that my child would be happy with and that 468 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: my partner would be happy with, you know, And um, yeah, 469 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: it's just beautiful. So maybe one day we'll get we'll 470 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: get a wonderful animation animated version of Daddy wy My Brown. 471 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: But maybe one day long in the future after this interview, 472 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: because now everybody, everybody listening to your shlfs and'll never 473 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: know about it. I know it. So where can people 474 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: connect with you online? Dr Palmer? What is your website? 475 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: And I know people can go to your website to 476 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: buy the book, So what's your website as well as 477 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: any social media handles that you want to share? Okay, 478 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: I gotta I got a few, so um, you can 479 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: find me directly and and through this you can find 480 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: a lot of other stuff that's connected to me. But um, 481 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: I have my website is d R B F Palmer 482 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: dot com. So dr bf Palmer dot com. And the 483 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 1: website for the book is deeper than color, that's deeper 484 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: than pH A N Color dot com. And you can 485 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: go there and you can get to both websites. From 486 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: each other a linked and you can go on Amazon 487 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: to find the book. Uh, and you can find that 488 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: by either searching it on Google, or you can go 489 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: directly to the website. Now Internet handle wise, you can 490 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: find me at dr b F. Palmer on Instagram and 491 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: on Twitter and on Facebook, so at dr b F. 492 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: Palmer and the book is at deeper than color, same 493 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: as the website. Yeah, so those are the best places. 494 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: So if you look for me on online. I talked 495 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: a lot about psychology and about race and culture and 496 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, as as some of my folks 497 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: say about the struggle. But I've been adding in some 498 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: some resources for parents. One thing that people might like, 499 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: especially right now in the context that we're in. I 500 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: know there's a lot of folks who are doing homeschooling 501 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: and needing some some materials. Well, I have six lessons 502 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: plans that are for free on the website. So if 503 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: you're a parent, or if you're just someone, if you're 504 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: a teacher, whoever you are, who's going to like to 505 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: gather some lesson plans for some kids, and you know, preschool, 506 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: kindergarten or first grade. There's six free lesson plans and 507 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: you can just go download those off of Deeper than 508 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: Color dot com. Perfect. Thank you so much for those 509 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: resources I can promm and of course all of that 510 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: would be included in the show notes so that people 511 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: can get say all of that very easily. But we 512 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: really appreciate you spending some time with us today. Thank you. 513 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: I appreciate you having me on. I'm so grateful Dr 514 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: Palmer was able to share his expertise with us today. 515 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: To learn more about him, or to grab your copy 516 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: of Daddy Why Am I Brown, visit the show notes 517 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash Session one, 518 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: and don't forget to share your takeaways with us in 519 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: either your I G Stories or on Twitter using the 520 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: hashtag tb G in session. If you're looking for a 521 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: therapist near area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy 522 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot Com slash directory. Many of the 523 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: therapists offer options to meet virtually if you're looking for 524 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: that right now. And if you want to continue digging 525 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: into this topic and meet some other systems in your area, 526 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, 527 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: where we take a deeper dive into the topics from 528 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: the podcast and just about everything else. You can join 529 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y 530 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: c C and don't forget to show our sponsor some 531 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: love by grabbing your Bomba stocks at bombas dot com 532 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: slash t b G today and get off of your 533 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: first order that's b O M B A S dot 534 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: com slash tv GF. Thank y'all so much for joining 535 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continue in 536 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care