WEBVTT - Can Britain’s Politics Cope: David Dimbleby Thinks Not 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.880 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:13.399 We're in a dire state. You can explain how awful 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.800 things are and say we'll do our best, but you 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:17.800 have to have a degree of charisma to do it, 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.040 and one thing our present prime minister does not have 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:22.560 is charisma. 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.680 David Dimbleby, who anchored ten general elections on the febrile 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.479 atmosphere in UK politics, would you say to the Labor Party, 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.200 don't change your prime minister. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.559 No, absolutely not. I'd say change him. I think you've 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.960 got a dud there. A nice man, and no doubt, 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.640 very intelligent man, but a man so overcautious, seemed public 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.720 with somebody who decides something and then once he gets 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:49.280 a bit of opposition, turns back. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.920 From Bloomberg Weekend, this is the Michelle Hussein Show. I'm 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:03.280 Michelle Hussein. As we go into this episode, I want 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.919 to say that if you're from the UK, then David 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:11.520 Dimbleby is not going to need an introduction. You'll know him, 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.000 or at least you'd recognize him. He was for decades 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.600 the face of election programs on the BBC, the person 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:24.360 who said which party had won, who announced on air 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.399 in the middle of the night in June twenty sixteen, 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:30.959 nearly ten years ago that the UK had voted to 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.720 leave the European Union. He has seen prime ministers from 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:39.119 Thatcher to Blair and many more since come into power 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.920 and then leave it, which is why I thought of 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.960 him in relation to the unrest in the governing Labor 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:50.000 Party right now, the possibility that Kirstarmer, who won a 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.120 landslide election victory just two years ago, could soon be 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:58.720 unseated by one of his own I wanted David Dimbleby 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:03.200 to put that in a wider context to analyze what's 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.760 happening in the UK, to look at its leaders Starmer 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:12.119 of course, but also Andy Burnham, his most prominent potential challenger, 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:17.480 and Nigel Farage of the Reform UK Party, who you 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:22.320 might remember has been on this show. And David Dimblebee 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.440 was also the face of royal coverage on the BBC. 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.280 So this includes his reflections going right back to Diana's 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.239 funeral in nineteen ninety seven and the King and Prince 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:38.840 William today. So with that, onto the conversation. This is 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.480 what happened when he settled into his chair in the studio. 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.560 H thank you for tempting me and you only got 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:48.880 me here by grotesque flattery. 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.000 I like to think of it as persuasion, but you're 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.280 someone who's observed beginning, I am think we were already recording. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:56.840 How am we going to talk for I think we'll 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:01.560 talk for forty minutes? Jesus, Yes, okay, it'll go y quickly. 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.120 I promise that's what they say. Yeah, it's just flattery 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.240 to you. You might even enjoy it, you know. No, 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:16.560 let's we'll revisit that question at the end. So with 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.760 the level of instability that the UK is seeing at 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.760 the moment, this prospect that we might have a seventh 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:27.800 prime minister in a decade. As an observer of the 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.800 political landscape for so many years, I just want to 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:32.600 know what you make of that and why you think 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:33.240 it's happening. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:38.160 Well, the churn in prime ministers has really been Tory, 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:45.200 hasn't it. Cameron May Johnson Trusts for God's sake, And 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:47.120 then soon I Kuberli had a chance and then there 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.400 was a general election. So it's the Tories who've been 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.920 doing the churning, not Labor. I do remember there was 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.880 a famous thing Harral Wilson always said, which was the 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.120 way to lead the Labor Party when they're in government 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.400 is to keep driving so hard that everybody is clinging 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.040 on for dear life, not to fall off the Labor wagon. 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:10.400 The moment you sort of show any signs of deferring things, 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:15.360 changing your mind, then everybody starts fighting for their idea 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.760 of what the Labor Party should be. So you need 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.960 a prime minister who can drive it, and that's the 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:24.080 key thing. And then that brings back confidence to the 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.800 Labor Party or fear that they'll be kicked out if 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.280 they're not in accord with it. 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.839 But the fact that it is happening now to a 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.160 UK Prime Minister being questioned and more than question from 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.200 within his own party, doesn't that show that there is 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:43.360 something wider afoot than these two dominant parties, that there's 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.120 something about our political firmament or the appetite of our 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.600 public that seems to engender this. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:55.120 Well, there's certainly an electoral system, and I don't want 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:59.480 to go into constitutional things that absolutely doesn't reflect opinion 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.640 in the country and so a lot of people feel 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.640 that they vote in a general election and it doesn't 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:07.640 get represented. I mean, if you look at the last 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.520 general election, reform got I think more votes than the 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.720 Liberal Democrats. They've got a tiny number of seats. The 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:18.680 proportions people get doesn't reflect the balance of opinions. So 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.279 if you go into the voting booth and you vote, 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.640 and millions of people vote, and then you don't get 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.719 any seats in the House of Commons, you feel unrepresented, 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.960 and I think that does cause huge frustration. I mean 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.960 it's crazy to argue for, you know, a change in 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.520 our constitution. I don't think that's going to happen. It's 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.839 a long process, but it's I mean, our constitution is 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:46.280 very suited to aristocratic government in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.599 I mean the public having views, I mean people below 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.640 a certain freehold value of house having views. No, it 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.000 wasn't contrived for that. It was simply for a simple 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.960 virtually a dichotomy. And even then, during the eighteenth and 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:03.560 nineteenth centuries, we churned prime ministers. So there's nothing much 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.159 new in the churning that went on with Liz trust. 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.120 I mean, she was obviously a disastrous choice and it 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.120 didn't work out, But it's I think much more important 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.160 is that how do you get And this is where 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.440 reform comes in, And I suspect some of the vote 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.640 for the Greens come in if people don't feel that 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:25.320 they are getting represented. If you have a swathe of 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.039 people voting reform who've got more votes for instance in 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.760 the last general election the Liberal Democrats but only got 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.760 four seats to the Liberal Democrats forty or fifty whatever 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:42.680 it was, then people who know, facing issues about their 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:47.640 income going down and the NHS not serving them all 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.160 and everything feel but I've voted and nothing actually happens. 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:53.120 And if you take I mean you have to be 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.400 careful with voting it, You have to take sort of 0:06:55.560 --> 0:07:00.480 accumulation of individual votes. I mean, the sophologists always treated 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.279 they're great sways of opinion. But if you go into 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.119 the minds of just a single voter in maker Field, 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:07.600 for instance, where there's going to be this. 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.240 By election, the one that may bring the likely next 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:12.360 Prime minister to. 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.920 Parliament, though Reform one of the vote there in the 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.160 local elections in that area, so nobody knows quite what 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.760 will happen. But I mean, if you took that and 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:28.040 just examined what individual voters thought and then ask them 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.520 whether they felt they were represented, that's why they're voting 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.120 for reform. Because they didn't feel what is that word heard, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:38.120 They didn't feel heard. But we're off track on them well, 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.680 on the churning of prime ministers, because I think that's 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.320 much more to do with warfare within political parties. 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.240 Yes, but I remember the time, and I'm sure you 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.040 remember as well. Where you know, in the British political 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.960 established more widely the public, you'd look at the many 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.880 prime ministers somewhere like Italy and you'd feel quite superior 0:07:57.920 --> 0:07:59.480 about it that that was not the kind of thing 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.840 that happened in the UK. Do you think that we 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.320 are heading for a multi party system that will mean 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:11.400 the only way to govern will be to be in coalitions, 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.960 and that will need a different mindset, certainly on. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:20.480 The present form of reform. I mean, if the local 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:25.000 election results were at a general election, and of course 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:27.680 you know there are all sorts of caveats you have 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:29.760 to put in about what would it be exactly the 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.440 same if it had been reformed. Wouldn't have a working 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:34.920 majority in the House of Commons, so of course there 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:39.000 would have to be yes. And I mean it's easy, 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.640 you know, I mean, it's easier to mock countries like 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.199 Italy where it was all chaotic and now seems to 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.679 be rather stable. I mean, these things come and go. 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.400 We were the sick man of Europe, remember way back. 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.120 I mean in my lifetime, not in yours. We were 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.800 the sick man of Europe because because our growth was low, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.160 we had winter of discontent, we had strikes everywhere, the 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.600 country ground to a halt, we had a three day week. 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.719 I mean, we've been through before, you know, and we're 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:13.520 going through it again now. So is your antimist I'm 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:14.520 not saying it's optimistic. 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.240 If you're saying should one be steady at the moment 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.600 then and would you say to the Labor Party don't 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:20.920 change your prime minister? 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.400 Absolutely not, I'd say change him. I think you've got 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:29.160 a dud there. I mean a nice man, and no doubt, 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.960 very intelligent man, but a man so overcautious and so 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.120 seen publicly, I don't know what to be a is privately, 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.960 but seen publicly. Somebody who decides something and then once 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.560 he gets a bit of opposition, turns back. Unlike Thatcher, 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:49.280 unlike Blair, who were kind of bold statement politicians. In 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.640 times of crisis you need that. And at the moment 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.960 the Labour Party is in complete disarray about what it 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:55.520 really wants. 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.760 So if it is Andy Burnham who comes to Parliament 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.880 and then is in a position to challenge the Prime minister, 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.240 do you think he would be different in substance or 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.679 is it the case that he'd be a better communicator 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.080 and that is crucial in our age. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.320 I think he'd be a far better communicator. I don't 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.319 know what his views are. I mean I've had him 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.400 on programs often and have never quite been able to 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.840 work out what he stands for. To tell the truth, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.280 I think it comes and goes a bit. I mean, 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.440 you know that we've now got this thing that he 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.960 wants to go back into the EU. Oh no, I 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.120 don't actually no, I don't want to get back into 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.080 the EU. No, that's way well obviously has to say 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:37.760 that because if he goes, I mean, he's not going 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.000 to win, not going to win the Labor Party, He's 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:41.800 not going to win the country over if he says 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.480 it's time to go back into the EU. 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.959 He's not going to win election in that particular area. 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.760 Yeah, and in that area, I mean, which was a 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.920 reform area. So how would he be different? I think 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:57.079 he has on his side the kind of political patterner 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:03.880 of energy, youth enthusiasm, and the so called success of 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.120 Manchester which is compared to the UK as a whole, 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.680 tiny microcosm, but nevertheless generally seem to be successful that 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.560 they brought in, they got industry to come to Manchester. 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:20.120 Manchester has revived under Burnham's mayoralty, and me keeping on 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:22.959 being told he was very good with the buses, so 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.959 you know, those sound small things, but they show a 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:31.600 kind of willingness to change, So I don't mean who knows. 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:36.000 Andy Burnham's people have told Bloomberg that he would not 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:42.000 change the current fiscal rules which essentially limit borrowing, which 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.959 leads to the question of how differently he may or 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.600 may not govern. Would he be a better communicator but 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.920 a prime minister with a similar policy agenda, which leads 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.680 me to wonder, is there something more fundamental to do 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.120 with the country underway? And you've seen you know, different 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.760 governments over a long period of time in that our 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.240 we as a country in favor of we want good 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:05.480 public services, but we don't really want to pay the 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.200 levels of taxation that make them possible. 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.640 Well, we're pretty well taxed, don't we. We're fairly highly taxed. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.680 But we're up with the European averages. I think we're 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:24.719 in a position of stagnation on government borrowing, on taxation, 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.520 and on GDP growth. I mean there's been since Brexit, 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:34.480 what does it fall on prospective growth of eight percent? 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:39.319 So people are genuinely feeling hard pressed, hard done by. 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.600 They're not able to take their holidays, their money doesn't 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:45.959 go around as well as it did, and that's really 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:51.200 oppressive because it's a trap, because the theory of successful 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:55.400 social democracy is amelioration all the time. That's the point 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:59.760 of it. A society goes richer because of the energy, inventiveness, 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:05.760 and enthusiasm and commitment that it has to its own prosperities. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.800 So it produces better educated people, it produces more intelligent 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:15.280 solutions to problems. And we've had, of course, the problem 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.320 going from a heavily industrialized society to a service industry society, 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.320 which is difficult, but this position of falling back, so 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:27.520 you've get these terrible stories of you know, young people 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:33.520 unemployed in perpetuity and then coming forward with supposed mental 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.040 health problems and then being put on drugs and all that. 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.160 We're in a dire state. I'm not pretending we're not 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.600 in a dire state. I think we are in that 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:46.760 sense economically socially, I think economically as well. 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.040 And what is the impact of that on the social fabric. 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.080 I don't know. They don't riot. Well, they do riot actually, 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.520 as we saw this week, I mean the two massive 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.439 demonstrations in London, which mostfully didn't end up in the 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.760 thousand deaths. And I think people who voute reform, I 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:08.120 don't know quite what they're after, but it's certainly, I 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.440 think probably above all greater prosperity. That's I mean, that's 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:13.360 the one thing people go for it. It may get 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.840 disguised as controlling immigration, you know, it may get disguised 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.000 as cutting taxation or I mean, but it's actually GDP 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.200 growth so that people feel each generation feels that they're 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.880 doing better and not that they're slipping back. And that's 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.480 the that's the key to good government. And I mean, 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.400 god knows how at the moment that can be done, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.520 because we're you know, up to our eyes in we 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:39.800 can't get the IMF says we can't go any further 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.560 on our debt, on our guilt yields and all that. 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:48.280 We can't change that. You can't effectively reduce taxation. You 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.680 can't effectively I don't know. I don't know what you do, 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:52.560 but what I do know you do is you have 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.920 to kind of recognize those are the problems and talk. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:56.960 About and you need the leaders who are fit for the. 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.400 Most Yes, I mean maybe I put too much on leadership, 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.120 but I do think that acknowledging. You know, you can't 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.000 just be medi mouthed and say things are going to 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.520 get better and then actually do nothing very much. If 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.680 you want to, you can explain how awful things are 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.640 and say, well, we'll do our best, but you have 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:16.880 to have a degree of charisma to do it. And 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.520 one thing our present prime minister does not have is charisma. 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:27.000 I mean, he mutters, he mutters, are you? I mean, 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:31.200 look at Trump. Trump's a good example. Trump. Trump traded 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:36.040 on exactly the same disaffection in the middle of America 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.840 that has led to the rise of reform. That is 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.480 to say, lower middle class that put it that way, 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.400 and working people who just feel they're slipping backwards. And 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.240 that's why Trump was so enthusiastically endorsed. That's why he 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.160 may be in trouble in the midterms. If the economy 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.800 doesn't pick up, and that's a strong, real political instinct. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.880 I mean, people in Wall Street or the city can 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.760 sort of sneer at it, and you know those are 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.280 left behind, But it's they're the voters. It's a democracy, 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.440 and they're the ones who have to be constantly nurtured 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.840 and looked after if democracies to work, if to succeed. 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.920 Are you worried about what the future holds for the country. 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.480 Yes, yes, but I've always been. I've always been worried. 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.160 I was worried when we had the three day week. 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.760 I was worried when the offshoot of the Iraq War. 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.720 I'm worried about the Iran War. Of course, I'm worried 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.880 about the future in that sense. But if you mean, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.800 am I worried about whether our politics can cope with 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:44.000 the crisis we're in, yes, i am, because I think 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.920 in some ways it's unfitted to cope. For the reasons 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:49.720 that I was explaining. 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.440 What do you think about the prospect of Nigel Farash 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:52.800 being the next Prime minister? 0:16:53.760 --> 0:17:00.320 I well, I don't think. Can I say this, I 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.480 don't know. I'm not sure he's temperamentally suited to the 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.800 job and I haven't yet seen any signs around him 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:14.679 of people of caliber to act as chance the exchequer, 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:20.879 foreign secretary, Home secretary until we see them and how 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.119 competent they are at the moment. It's a bit of 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:28.159 a sort of mix and match leftovers, seems to me. 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:34.120 I don't yet feel that Farage is presenting other than 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.040 himself and some bold ideas which may or may not 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:42.919 be acceptable or doable. I don't think he's presenting himself 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.080 as a government yet, but he's got three years to go. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:51.600 We know that they've got a big policy on mass deportations. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.160 That's what they have promised if they come to government. 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.040 And that does mean that given they want to abolish 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:02.040 the indefinite leave to remain state where people can be 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.760 here without being British citizens if they've fulfilled the requirements, 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.840 I mean the prospect of policies like that, instinctively, how 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:11.119 do you respond to them? What do you think they 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.240 would mean for the Britain We know, I. 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:18.520 Think instinctively that they would be totally disastrous because I 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:23.320 think that the ramifications would go well beyond the few 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.480 who may be here because they've cheated about their circumstances 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:32.439 or you know, have got definitely to remain improperly. But overall, 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:34.760 I think it would be I think it would have 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.280 a terrible effect on communities that for twenty thirty or 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:43.199 forty years have lived side by side. I think it 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.400 would be devastating. But I also don't think it would 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.720 be doable ice in Britain. I sort of didn't think so. 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.440 I mean, well, I've asked Nigel Fowers this question because 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.280 he's been on this podcast. Yes, and he said, we 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.800 do it in all way that Ice is not the comparison, 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.680 because you know, Ice armed and obviously they exist in 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:07.440 the United States and have done for a long time 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.840 before Donald Trump. But he was very clear that he 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.959 would that a reform government would do it in their 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:14.480 own way. 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:16.600 So and what did he mean by that. 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.480 I think he means that there would be that they 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:25.480 would actually deport people in high numbers in a way 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.920 that he would say previous governments haven't. 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:31.040 Had a bottle to do well. Good question. 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:31.960 We didn't get that far. 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:32.399 I don't know. 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:34.440 Well, they would, they would leave it. 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.120 But you look at the process for that, leave the EHR. 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.160 They've got to change the law, they've got to get 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.840 the judges out of their hair, and then how many 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.640 people are they going to deport? I mean million, half 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:46.080 a million. 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:47.720 I don't know what the plan is, but he's made 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.919 other things happen, as like leaving the EU, as you 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.520 witnessed over many years when he came on Question Time, 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:59.439 the program that you presented for so long, do you 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:04.679 think that that exposure on television helped him become the 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.560 national public figure that he now is. That people knew 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.080 him because they saw him on television. They liked the 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.480 way he came across, and you know the program that 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:16.639 you fronted was part of giving him that kind of 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:21.879 national status. Mayor coolper not you personally. I tell you 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.399 what Donald Trump benefited from being recognized on TV. Boris 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:26.560 Johnson did as well. 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:29.560 It brings us to the whole business of social media 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.600 and the way people communicate nowadays. And in two minds 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:37.080 about under BBC rules, once he had become a UKIP 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.280 representative in the European Parliament, he had a right, the 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.480 party had a right. I can't remember how many times, 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.639 two or three times a year out of twenty six programs, 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.199 but then the question always was, well who do we 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.080 put on? And they were all such drong Goos. Apart 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:55.200 from Farage, he was the only articulate one. I mean, 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.280 we did try one or two others, but they were 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.160 so boring and so confused, and maybe in the interest 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.080 of democracy we should have put them on as boring 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.560 and confused. But we wanted a good argument about what 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.919 Reform was arguing, and so Farage. And this is the 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.320 problem actually with the reform now that he is the 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.320 only voice. Really the reason you were talking to him, 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.480 he is the only voice, and I think that's a 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:19.040 kind of achilles heel for him. 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:21.600 They're definitely now trying to build up others. 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.760 Yes, but he's not very good at the relationships. To see. 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.000 He calls out with people quite easily. He's quite he's 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:30.840 quite thin skinned in a funny way. I guess, well, 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.400 if you're going to lead a new party, you've got 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:35.560 to be quite broad shouldered about who you bring in. 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.600 I'm conscious that we're now ten years on from the 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.280 EU referendum and you were the voice who said that 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.399 night on the airwaves were out the people are voted 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.719 to leave the EU. But you would also in nineteen 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:52.000 seventy five anchored the results coverage and. 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.720 Of the we've left Farage now have we well, I 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.760 mean his big cause was his big cause has before 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:00.959 this before the country as whole was the EU. 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.240 And it just made me think, with this ten year anniversary, 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.600 you've been a witness to many big political moments, anchoring 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:11.240 all those general elections and the voice of the referendum 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.760 in twenty sixteen when the results came, and you played 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:16.639 a similar role back in nineteen seventy five when the 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.359 UK voted to stay in the European Economic Community as 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.760 it was. Then, how do you reflect on seeing that 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:26.119 total expanse of time and two different decisions by the 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:26.879 British public. 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.919 Why did they vote for and then vote against. 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.679 Or how did it feel both of those nights to 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.240 you having seen that the entire. 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:39.760 Sectory the first one was virtually was a foregun conclusion. Really, 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:44.520 Wilson had been aware, and I mean, unlike Cameron, who 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:47.840 you remember, came back before his referendum, which I think, 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.960 actually think was a disastrous mistake to call it because 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:56.000 it became something quite different. But he came back from 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.440 Russell's with one or two minor concessions that had been offered, 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:03.320 which we help. But Wilson came back and Wilson was 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.239 a wily Prime minister, and he came back and said, oh, 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.199