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Speaker 1: M podcast. I'm Robert Evans. This is Behind the Bastards.

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Speaker 1: Sophie is angry at me for that opening. Uh. This

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Speaker 1: is the podcast when we talk about all the things

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Speaker 1: you didn't know about terrible people. Uh, and we laughed

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Speaker 1: and sometimes too. We're talking about Mark Zuckerberg. This is

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Speaker 1: part two, so you shouldn't need a normal intro if

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Speaker 1: you're listening to part two. You saw in the title

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Speaker 1: this is part two. You know what? You know what's

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Speaker 1: going on here. My guests, as always on podcasts about

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Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg, Jamie Loftus and Maggie may Fish. We're nice

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Speaker 1: and warm from part one, maybe from part one and

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Speaker 1: from the delightful internal heating effect of Brito's. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel the fern is deep in my belly and right

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Speaker 1: next to my uterus is nice. The powders coursing through

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Speaker 1: my main clogging my blood stream like a diet any second,

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Speaker 1: not clogging enhancing? Now, Oh god, that is a good dorito?

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Speaker 1: Is there a bad dorito? No? No, there's not fantastic.

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Speaker 1: You all ready to talk about marzuck some more? Marzak.

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Speaker 1: It's Mike Marwin. Welcome, Welcome to Marzak. For someone who

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Speaker 1: gets beaten by a Facebook hate mob. Welcome to Marzak everyone.

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Speaker 1: So the bloom is well and truly off the rows

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Speaker 1: of Facebook. In the wake of the two thousand and

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Speaker 1: sixteen election, criticizing the social media company has become so common,

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Speaker 1: as of articles declaring that young people have increasingly left

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Speaker 1: the service behind, that it can be very easy to

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Speaker 1: forget just what a darling Facebook was in its early days.

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Speaker 1: I was a tech journalist in the wild and wooly

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Speaker 1: era of two thousand and ten, when Facebook was cracking

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Speaker 1: new number milestones every couple of months. I remember when

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Speaker 1: they had half a billion and eventually a billion. We

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Speaker 1: would all write articles about Facebook. There's many people are

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Speaker 1: on Facebook. There's how much time there's been. Look at

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Speaker 1: all this great stuff. Now. There was a lot of

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Speaker 1: excitement about what Facebook might mean for the future back

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Speaker 1: then from most of the tech media. It lasted right

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Speaker 1: up until the election. I found a Business Insider article

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Speaker 1: from two thousand fifteen that illustrates this pretty well. It's

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Speaker 1: titled the Fabulous Life of Mark Zuckerberg. To give you

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Speaker 1: an idea of its tone, here's the line from the introduction.

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Speaker 1: The Harvard droughtouts current net Worth is at about thirty

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Speaker 1: three point four billion, putting him at number sixteen on

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Speaker 1: Forbes ranking of the world's billionaires. Here's a closer look

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Speaker 1: at the life of the simultaneously down to earth yet

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Speaker 1: extravagant CEO. Now, if this report is opending that no

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Speaker 1: one worth thirty three billion dollars can never be considered

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Speaker 1: down to earth, but hey, maybe I got some sour grapes.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting to me that this seems to be

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Speaker 1: a carefully concocted market employ used by Zuckerberg. The first

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Speaker 1: big book about facebooks founding, the book that was the

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Speaker 1: basis for the movie The Social Network, was titled The

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Speaker 1: Accidental Billionaires Wants to Push They stumbled into it. Oops,

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Speaker 1: I wound up with more wealth than most of Africas.

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Speaker 1: Oops tootles. I can't be doing wrong if I'm successful.

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Speaker 1: If it was, if I just Mr Magoon my way

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Speaker 1: into a pile of money the size of the Sears Tower,

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Speaker 1: I can't even grow a beard. Guys, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: keep making fun of this. There's not actually as much

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Speaker 1: cash in existence as I have in my bank account.

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Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, now, uh. The Business Insider article with

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Speaker 1: all of its flawed and fawning pros, still provides a

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Speaker 1: decent little look at Zuck's early life. It makes a

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Speaker 1: point of really really going into Mark's bona fides as

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Speaker 1: a legit smart guy that he who is to be

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Speaker 1: very sensitive about his intelligence. I could the size of

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Speaker 1: his intelligence. Interesting fun fact, Maggie, I could. I could

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Speaker 1: taste the anger in your voice. Really was. It was

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Speaker 1: almost like a derrito literally. Yea of the things that

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Speaker 1: I've noticed, like just having immersed myself in zuckernus um,

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Speaker 1: he is extremely protective of the idea that he is

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Speaker 1: a genius um on all things and not just Facebook,

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Speaker 1: So I mean, he's not in men. But how's that

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Speaker 1: boop threat on Facebook? Mental love Facebook? To be fair,

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Speaker 1: It's where they spread all their hate to It is

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Speaker 1: the platform that they need to have to do it.

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Speaker 1: So they earned it. They paid seventy five dollars to

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Speaker 1: take a test on a Sunday. Oh, I Q. Tests

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Speaker 1: are bastard, almost as terrible as Mark Zuckerberg. But that'll

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Speaker 1: be for our Stefan Mala new episode. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: read a quote from that Business Insider article about how

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Speaker 1: smart Mark Zuckerberg to hear he wasn't just a computer nerd. Though.

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Speaker 1: Zuck loved the classics, the Odyssey and the like, and

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Speaker 1: he became captain of the high school. Like yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I figured the writer being like, what's the second book

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Speaker 1: with the second book? Second classic book. Well, and there

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Speaker 1: was an article that I read that was like he

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Speaker 1: loves the Greek classics, you know, like talking about that

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Speaker 1: at the very end, that's a Latin classic. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: a Latin classic. It's actually Roman propaganda written by Virgil

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Speaker 1: so that he could make the case that Octavian had

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Speaker 1: like a deep connection to like Roman history. Like it

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Speaker 1: was literally a propaganda novel to rewrite Roman history in

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Speaker 1: the image of Octavian after Octavian destroyed the Republican you know,

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Speaker 1: the Greek classics, the Greek classics, the Greek classics, like

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Speaker 1: this Roman propaganda novel. Yeah, I hate Harry Potter culture,

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Speaker 1: but there is a very like, uh, like a disgruntled

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Speaker 1: hufflepuff vibe to Mark Zuckerberg, like he wants to be

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Speaker 1: in anywhere else, Mark Huffelberg. Now the article goes through

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Speaker 1: some of the gushi er us were the details of

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg's charmed life since starting Facebook. For example, here's what

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Speaker 1: it says about his wedding to Priscilla Chandan Days No Days.

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Speaker 1: Billy Joel Armstrong performed and Mark designed Priscilla's ruby ring.

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Speaker 1: Himself performed at their wedding, and he designed and in

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Speaker 1: The Excellent Billionaires makes a point of when it's talking

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Speaker 1: about like the place that everyone at Facebook lived in

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Speaker 1: when they all first moved to California, that they were

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Speaker 1: always playing Green Day because they're so into punk rock.

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Speaker 1: They're guys, you heard of this record called What What Era?

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Speaker 1: This has to be like post American idiot. It's gotta

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Speaker 1: be righting. It's really exciting. Now. The few details about

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Speaker 1: his life that Mark lets out into the public sphere

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Speaker 1: are carefully curated. He's one of the many Silicon Valley

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Speaker 1: CEOs who takes a token one dollar a year salary.

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Speaker 1: You'll always hear that. Of course, that number ignores what

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Speaker 1: he makes in stock, and it ignores expenses like the

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Speaker 1: six and ten thousand, four hundred and fifty four dollars

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Speaker 1: Facebook spent in two thousand fourteen to chart our private

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Speaker 1: jets for Mark and his friends. The Business Insider article

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Speaker 1: and many other pro Zack pieces I have read make

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Speaker 1: a lot of hay out of the fact that he

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Speaker 1: doesn't drive a fancy car, instead preferring a Volkswagen g

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Speaker 1: T I that only costs thirty dollars. Now, if you've

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Speaker 1: got that kind of money, Mark Zuckerberg, Gas, I don't

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Speaker 1: think you should have it. But if you got it

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Speaker 1: and you're going to buy a car, you're an idiot.

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Speaker 1: If you buy a car that anybody can buy, get

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Speaker 1: a fucking blimp like that Google guy. At least it's

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Speaker 1: even more sussed to get a right like, Hello, fellow kids,

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Speaker 1: I am just like you. I drive Volkswagen like you

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Speaker 1: are all Volkswagons. You have to tape the gash Sucker

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Speaker 1: somewhere now. While Facebook was expanding and the world was

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Speaker 1: falling in love with marky Zack, there were signs that

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Speaker 1: everyone's favorite new tech book, there were signs that everyone's

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Speaker 1: favorite new tech billionaire was maybe not the nicest dude

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Speaker 1: to be around. Noah Kagan worked for Facebook for nine

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Speaker 1: months in two thousand five, back when the company was

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Speaker 1: first start its meteoric rise to world dominance. Kagan later

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Speaker 1: wrote an e book that touched on his experiences there.

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Speaker 1: In it, he recalled Mark Zuckerberg pouring water on an

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Speaker 1: engineer's computer after a product demo that he thought looked

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Speaker 1: like quote shit. Here's a quote from Kegan's e book. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember the feature we were working on. Engineer

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Speaker 1: Chris Puttenham and I had spent almost a month building

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Speaker 1: something we thought Mark would love. He walks to Chris's

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Speaker 1: computer and we demo the product to Mark. Mark thought

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Speaker 1: it was ship. I know so because instead of giving

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Speaker 1: product feedback, he screamed, this is ship. Redo it, throw

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Speaker 1: water on Chris's computer and walked away. All of us

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Speaker 1: stood around in shock. Kagan also claims that Zuck, like

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Speaker 1: far right gang leader Gavin McGinnis, has a distinct fondness

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Speaker 1: for samurai swords. Oh sword, we get it out, dude.

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Speaker 1: I remember my first sword guy when it was before

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Speaker 1: I had the language to identify a sword guy, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, I know I feel unsafe, but

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Speaker 1: there's more to it than that. It's more than just

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Speaker 1: a general unease that I have. I also feel bad

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Speaker 1: for this could so easily kill me with a samurai

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Speaker 1: saw that he bought forty five dollars at the gas station.

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Speaker 1: Yeah about Stanford, and bought stand always by a stand.

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Speaker 1: Well he need you just need to see it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what is he going to hide it? No? No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I want you to know exactly what I'm like. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm like this what I would use to kill you.

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Speaker 1: I know I look like this guy, but I'm also

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Speaker 1: this guy. Now, are you guys ready for the samurai

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Speaker 1: sword story? Yes? Pretty good, It's pretty good. This is

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Speaker 1: like when Kaddafi had his astronaut short story. This is

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Speaker 1: the mark of quote. He'd walk around with a samurai sword,

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Speaker 1: fake threatening to attack you for bad work. Where the

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Speaker 1: hell he got that samurai sword? Who the hell knows?

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Speaker 1: Luckily no employees were harmed while I was there. He'd

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Speaker 1: come around and pretend to cut you, joking. If you

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Speaker 1: take down the site, he'll chop your head off. You

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Speaker 1: have to remember you have a twenty few year old

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Speaker 1: uber nerd running one of the fastest growing sites on

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Speaker 1: the web. As mature as he could be, he was

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Speaker 1: also still immature. He had some great motivational alliance with love.

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Speaker 1: He'd say, if you don't get that done sooner, I

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Speaker 1: will punch you in the face, or I will shop

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Speaker 1: you with this huge sword. While holding a huge sword

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Speaker 1: in hand, but with love. Guys. Oh, it's just like

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Speaker 1: I'm going to cut you with this sort. Men in

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Speaker 1: their twenties should have businesses, really sense, Well, the thing

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Speaker 1: is that he has stunted his growth. Like he doesn't

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Speaker 1: realize this because he's living his own life. But from

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Speaker 1: outside perspective, you cemented yourself as a twenty two year

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Speaker 1: old inept at talking to people and connecting with people,

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Speaker 1: and you've stopped your life. Well, as he learned from

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Speaker 1: his later colleague, he should just lean in. That should

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Speaker 1: just go for it. Next paragraph starts with Cheryl saying,

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Speaker 1: I do want to share one story about me. When

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Speaker 1: I was twenty three years old, just for fairness, so

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Speaker 1: I'm not judging Mark for immaturity. I vomited it down

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Speaker 1: an elevator in between the shaft and the wall because

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Speaker 1: I had to puke. I was super drunk and I knew, okay,

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Speaker 1: I have to puke somewhere. If I puke in this

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Speaker 1: elevator on other people, that's going to be bad. But

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Speaker 1: when the door opens, I can I respect that. That's innovative.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to hurt too many other people, but

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Speaker 1: I realized now as a sober man, I really fucked

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Speaker 1: some repair. Again, not a good person here, but better

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Speaker 1: than Mark, which is a low bar. Yeah, and also

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Speaker 1: you learned which let's let's not go. Actually, I am

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Speaker 1: still a ruined ruin of a human being. Santa Monica

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Speaker 1: lightbulb bandit. But I don't I don't have a business.

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Speaker 1: Sophie manages the podcast for good reason. In two thousand eight,

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Speaker 1: Facebook hired Cheryl Sandberg, the author of Lenin and generally

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Speaker 1: as Slim is a Queen. Hashtag girl boss O my god,

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Speaker 1: the girl Boss narrative is my favorite. There's a great

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Speaker 1: podcast y'all should listen to. It's not our network, but

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Speaker 1: it's great. It's called The Dream and it's about m

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Speaker 1: l M s and it talks about an m l

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Speaker 1: M that's all based on the hashtag girl boss leaning ship.

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Speaker 1: Super super interesting. Yes, women can also destroy the world

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Speaker 1: us too. We can eat the planet tea. Yeah. So yes, here,

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Speaker 1: women are running the CIA now hashtag feminist side. Oh listen,

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Speaker 1: give us a chance to buy into this power structure.

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Speaker 1: We waterboard with Lacroix now, but we're still waterboard. We're like,

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Speaker 1: we're guys, girls were still waterboards. Yeah, let's listen. I

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Speaker 1: actually get along better with guys than I do with girls.

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Speaker 1: It's real. It's really weird too, like guys. I know,

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Speaker 1: like I'm gonna sound like one of those girls, but

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Speaker 1: I actually like think Mark is really nice and you

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Speaker 1: just like misunderstood, you know what. I like, agree with that,

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Speaker 1: and let's shun all other women that disagree with us.

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Speaker 1: They're kind of like bitchy girls. Yeah, like we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: hire them anyways. This podcast will not go into nearly

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Speaker 1: enough detail on miss Sandberg, but we will talk about

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Speaker 1: her in the in the future yea. At the time,

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Speaker 1: Sandberg's job was to be the adult in the room

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Speaker 1: at Facebook, to reinsure the investors and the world that

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Speaker 1: this browie frat robots suddenly harvesting data from millions of

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Speaker 1: people was being managed by competent, thoughtful human beings who

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Speaker 1: would act responsibly with the great power placed in their hands.

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Speaker 1: Charles Sandberg does at least a very good impression of

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Speaker 1: a human being. Super Yeah, she does a really good job.

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Speaker 1: It's the new dictator is a woman with a smile

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Speaker 1: on her face. First, you know, yeah, always a white

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Speaker 1: woman with us. Yeah, the white woman, yeah, and the

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Speaker 1: whitest the whitest woman and a big smile. The front

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Speaker 1: line interview one of the representatives that they sent. That's

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Speaker 1: basically all she did was smile and say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we know, and we know we fuck up. We're listening

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Speaker 1: corporate feminism by soap Now. In two six, Facebook introduced

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Speaker 1: the news Feed, that infinitely scrolling thingy that has replaced

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Speaker 1: the way roughly Americans get their news. The timeline was

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Speaker 1: programmed with a distinct preference for controversial content by virtue

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Speaker 1: of the fact that people were most likely to chat

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Speaker 1: about things that made them angry, You're scared. They were

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Speaker 1: also more likely to share articles that angered or scared them.

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Speaker 1: Skanked sky or did you ever skank? Like in high school?

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Speaker 1: I guess the scott You know what? Scott is my

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Speaker 1: favorite genre. But I have never been to a show

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Speaker 1: or dance. I felt like, for sure you would like

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Speaker 1: bust it was not a rude boy, but I street

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Speaker 1: Light Manifesto is maybe my favorite band. Fucking fantastic band. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not too late. It's not too late, never too late,

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Speaker 1: not too never too late to skank. Thomas Kalnach If

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Speaker 1: you're listening, uh, sponsor the show. I don't think you

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Speaker 1: have any money because you're a ska musician. But you're great. Hey,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening, give us five stars on idea. We'll

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Speaker 1: give you. Give you some money you might We feel

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Speaker 1: like you could probably use that. So when the news

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Speaker 1: feed launched, Facebook also made a change to its privacy

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Speaker 1: policies in order to make the news feed work better.

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Speaker 1: Here's the New Yorker quote. Unless you wrestled with a

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Speaker 1: set of complicated settings, vastly more of your information, possibly

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Speaker 1: including your name, your gender, your photograph, your list of friends,

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Speaker 1: would be made public by default. Now. That New Yorker

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Speaker 1: article is published in two thousand and ten, after some

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Speaker 1: of those unpleasant chats between Zuckerberg and his friends about

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Speaker 1: all of his weasel behavior, you know, after all those

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Speaker 1: chats and stuff went public, like this came out. The

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Speaker 1: author of the article is a guy named Jose Antonio Vargas,

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Speaker 1: and he's a good journalist. I think, I think it's

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Speaker 1: a good article. He spent some time with Zuckerberg and

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Speaker 1: when the subject of privacy came up, this happened. And

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Speaker 1: I'm going to quote the entire bit from the article

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Speaker 1: because it's fantastic. Privacy. He told me is the third rail?

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Speaker 1: Is you online. A lot of people who are worried

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Speaker 1: and this is Zuck talking. A lot of people who

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Speaker 1: are worried about privacy and those kinds of issues will

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Speaker 1: take any minor misstep that we make and turn it

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Speaker 1: into as big a deal as possible, he said. He

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Speaker 1: then excused himself as he typed on his iPhone for

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Speaker 1: answering a text from his mother. We realized that people

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Speaker 1: will probably criticize us for this for a long time,

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Speaker 1: but we believe this is the right thing to do.

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg and I talked about the first time I signed

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Speaker 1: up for Facebook and September two thousand six, users are

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Speaker 1: asked to check a box to indicate whether they're interested

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Speaker 1: in men or women. I told Zuckerberg that it took

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Speaker 1: me a few hours to decide which box to check.

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Speaker 1: If I said on Facebook that I'm a man interested

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Speaker 1: in men, all my Facebook friends, including relatives, coworkers, sources,

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Speaker 1: some of whom might not approve homosexuality, would see it.

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Speaker 1: So what did you end up doing, Zuckerberg asked, I

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Speaker 1: put men. That's interesting. No one has done a study

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Speaker 1: on this as far as I can tell, but I

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Speaker 1: think Facebook might be the first place where a large

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Speaker 1: number of people have come out. He said, we didn't

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Speaker 1: create that. Society was generally ready for that. He went on,

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Speaker 1: I think this is just part of the general trend

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Speaker 1: that we talked about about society being more open, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's good. Then I told Zuckerberg that two

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Speaker 1: weeks later, I removed of the check and left the

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Speaker 1: boxes blank. A couple of relatives who are Facebook friends

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Speaker 1: had asked about my sexuality, and at that time, at

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Speaker 1: least I didn't want all my professional sources to know

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Speaker 1: that I am gay. Is it still out? Zukerberg asked, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's still out. He responded with a flat huh, dropped

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Speaker 1: his shoulders and stared at me, looking genuinely concerned and

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Speaker 1: somewhat puzzled. Facebook had asked me to publish a personal

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Speaker 1: detail that I was not ready to share. Uh. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting bit of inside there.

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Speaker 1: That's a crossroads for for a little zuck for z

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Speaker 1: and I think it points to how stupid I think

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Speaker 1: he is, that he can't think of other situations until

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Speaker 1: they're in his face, like until his face is shoved

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Speaker 1: into it. And also it seems like a very like

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Speaker 1: straight white guy attitude of just like, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think we come up against this all the time. It's

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Speaker 1: just like stuff that truly didn't occur to him, like

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Speaker 1: not even at this point, I still prioritize my money

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Speaker 1: over your privacy. But that sucks, dude. Yeah, yeah, Now.

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Speaker 1: I found this particularly fascinating in light of a Daily

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Speaker 1: Beast article I read back in two thousand fifteen how

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Speaker 1: Facebook exposes domestic violence survivors. The article is as you'd expect,

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Speaker 1: about a bunch of people whose abusers were able to

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Speaker 1: get in touch with them and start harassing them again

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Speaker 1: because Facebook required those women to use their real names

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Speaker 1: to start Facebook accounts. Quote. Of the major social networking services,

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Speaker 1: Facebook alone requires users to use an authentic name listed

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Speaker 1: on an acceptable form of identification, such as a driver's license,

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Speaker 1: a passport, or a bill. Lincoln's user agreement asks for

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Speaker 1: a real name, but does not specify any required documentation. Twitter, Instagram,

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Speaker 1: and as of two fourteen, Google Plus all allows pseudonyms.

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Speaker 1: Has also been an issue for transgender people. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people get who Mark never considered and because almost

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Speaker 1: everyone working at Facebook was another white guy was not

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Speaker 1: there because it never prioritized and this will be a

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Speaker 1: problem that will crop up when we start talking about

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Speaker 1: the genocide being enabled by Facebook. But it's an issue

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Speaker 1: when you run a company this big that impacts the

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Speaker 1: lives of this many people, and you don't hire folks

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Speaker 1: specifically to be like, oh, I'm a member of this

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Speaker 1: particular community. And this might be an issue for say,

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Speaker 1: gay men, because you Mark Zuckerberg, don't realize that this

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Speaker 1: is the thing we have to deal with. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: an online nation and he thinks that he can be

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Speaker 1: the leader of it without caring about any of the

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Speaker 1: What don't you learn about the world as the son

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Speaker 1: of a wealthy dentist who goes to Harvard An excellent? Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right, extremely well, yeah there, it is crazy that,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you would think the second that you have

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Speaker 1: this wide of a reach, you would prioritize getting people

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Speaker 1: at different perspectives in or it's almost like your product

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Speaker 1: will turn on you. Yeah. Well, it's the ego that

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Speaker 1: he has that he is unwilling to confront and hide

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Speaker 1: that all costs. He plays the philanthropy the like I

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Speaker 1: care about the people when my book Yeah doing my

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Speaker 1: book club, let's learn together let me listen. Let me

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Speaker 1: go across the world and listen, so you will look

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Speaker 1: me for president. The only book club I'm interested in

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Speaker 1: joining is the Dorrito's book Club. What is it this month?

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Speaker 1: It's actually tried by Sebastian Young. Are fantastic book, really

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Speaker 1: good book about PTSD. Dorito's recommends it. Togtion Um adds

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Speaker 1: it's adds time. That's what that was a lead into

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Speaker 1: products products, and we're back talking about podcast products services Facebook.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's get back into it. For the most part,

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Speaker 1: up through the early aughts, Mark Zuckerberg's brand in most

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Speaker 1: of the world remained quite strong. He was the genius

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Speaker 1: who changed the way the world communicated, and he's like

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Speaker 1: such a humble, down to earth guy. In two thousand ten,

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Speaker 1: he was even given a guest star role on The Simpsons.

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Speaker 1: He played a bit part. Lisa is trying to convince

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Speaker 1: Nelson to stay in school rather than drop out to

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Speaker 1: focus on his business. They meet Mark Zuckerberg at some

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Speaker 1: sort of expo thing and he goes on a little

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Speaker 1: rant about all of the all the great innovators in

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Speaker 1: the tech industry dropped out of school, which is true.

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Speaker 1: Now I'll say this I think this is another example

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Speaker 1: where it's really easy for a guy like Mark. If

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Speaker 1: you were a coder, what do you need to go

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Speaker 1: to college? Well, Jamie's a hacker and but yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: the same thing like as a writer, you can go

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Speaker 1: you can get a writing degree and get a journalism degree,

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Speaker 1: but you could also just start writing. And it's the

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Speaker 1: nature of the business that if you get stuff published

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Speaker 1: that starts your career. Too. It's not like that for everybody.

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Speaker 1: If you're an electrician, I got to get some trade,

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Speaker 1: A surgeon kind of got to go to school. That's

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Speaker 1: where we're in faker professions. Yeah, that's where we're in

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Speaker 1: professions where you can be a faker. And in my experience,

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Speaker 1: someone could be like, so you have a degree in

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Speaker 1: journalism and you go the sounds good journalism. No, okay, good,

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Speaker 1: then you're clearly a journalist. Yeah. So anyway, a little

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Speaker 1: rant there. Uh Now. Two thousand ten was a time

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Speaker 1: in which Suckerberg and his ideas were the toast of

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, and what did Mark believe? In two He

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Speaker 1: sat for an interview with tech Crunch. They pressed him

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Speaker 1: on the matter of other people trusting him with their

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Speaker 1: data quote. When I got started in my dormom at Harvard,

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Speaker 1: the question a lot of people asked was why would

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Speaker 1: I want to put any information on the internet at all?

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Speaker 1: Why would I want to have a website? And then

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Speaker 1: the last five or six years, blogging has taken off

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Speaker 1: in a huge way, and all these different services that

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Speaker 1: are people sharing all this information. People have really gotten

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Speaker 1: comfortable not only sharing more information in different kinds, but

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Speaker 1: more openly and with more people. That social norm is

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Speaker 1: just something that has evolved over time. We view it

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Speaker 1: as a role in the system to constantly be innovating

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Speaker 1: and be updating what our system is to reflect what

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Speaker 1: the current social norms are. I'm not pushing society. I'm

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Speaker 1: changing Facebook to adapt to the changing social norm for

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Speaker 1: selling your data. Well, the funny that I've now realized

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Speaker 1: that Zuckerberg says a lot like, you know, like I

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Speaker 1: want to bring the world together, But that is code

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Speaker 1: for I want the world's information. I want every single

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Speaker 1: person to be on my website so I have their information,

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Speaker 1: I have their context. I gotta steal all of the

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Speaker 1: yell of all of them. It is weird to me,

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Speaker 1: like how long and I don't know at what point

424
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: this occurred to you. It took me a long time

425
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 1: to figure out what the concept of data mining and

426
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: big data was and like what it meant, because when

427
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: I was in college, I was like, well, who would

428
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: want my data? I don't have any money, like all,

429
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: I have a student debt, Like who cares if they

430
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: have my data? Because I have nothing to hide and

431
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: I have nothing, so who cares? And I wrote I

432
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: was a copywriter for big data companies for six months.

433
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: I would write ten thousand words a day about big

434
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: data and still couldn't understand why. I'm like, who gives

435
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: a fun unless you have money? But now I feel

436
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 1: like now it's very easy. But this was like five

437
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: years ago. I had no fucking clue and it was

438
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: my job to know. So I didn't my job. It

439
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: didn't make it all you're the true journal A yeah, no,

440
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: I do say. There's a great frontline documentary. You just

441
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 1: look up frontline Facebook on YouTube. It's all up there

442
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: that there's a journalist on there who was like the

443
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: first person to like request a copy of his data

444
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: from Facebook and realized how much was being logged. Another

445
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: good journalist, solid play because again I was the same

446
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: way I didn't pay any attention to what's happening. I

447
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: didn't care when going on and when you're taking like

448
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: I don't know, like especially in the era that was

449
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: super asinine, where you're like you've got bumper stickers and

450
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: there's you're taking quizzes all the time. You're like, well,

451
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 1: what would people do with this information? And now I

452
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: can't watch band or Snatch without being like they're taking

453
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: my opinions. Next, what's good? Yeah, TV is now going

454
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: to sell me personalized abs well, and I do think

455
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,719
Speaker 1: Netflix is making a big mistake with like focusing on

456
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: like this. Many people watched the fucking bird Box movies like, well,

457
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: it's successful as Black Panthers, No, because nobody had to

458
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 1: pay Yeah, no, one would have seen gust making money.

459
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: People saw cumulatives eighteen minutes of bird Box where they

460
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: were cooking, checking their phone and pooping. What are the

461
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: rules of this world? Why they put birds in the box, guys?

462
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: And I think that that makes it worth hard time.

463
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: I do think that that quote from the tech Crunch

464
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: interview maps out Mark's ideology pretty well. The world wants

465
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: to be more connected. His only job is delivering that

466
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: connectivity and As long as Facebook is connecting more people faster,

467
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: he does not need to worry about anything else. This

468
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: was mapped out even more eloquently by the company motto,

469
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: based on a quote by Mark himself, move fast and

470
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: break things. Unless you are breaking stuff, you aren't moving

471
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: fast enough. Now. The title of this episode, part two

472
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 1: is move fast, and the title of part three is

473
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: break things. Don't talk about that little genocide. Yeah, people

474
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: have ended their lives now. Now, it is important to

475
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: understand that at every level Facebook, the organization is programmed

476
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 1: to work this way. I'd like to quote from a

477
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: great CNBC article with the revealing title inside Facebook's cult

478
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: like workplace where the sin is discouraged and employees pretend

479
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: to be happy all the time. Solid title sounds like

480
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: one of those really long Fiona Apple. Oh yeah, you're

481
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: about to tell me a lot of stuff. I'm ready quote.

482
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: Employees feel pressure to place the company above all else

483
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: in their lives, fall in line with their manager's orders,

484
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: enforce cordiality with their colleagues so that they can advance

485
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: several former employees like in the culture to a cult.

486
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: This culture has contributed to the company's well publicized wave

487
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: of scandals over the last two years, such as government

488
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: spreading misinformation to try to influence elections and the misuse

489
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: of private user data. According to many people who work

490
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: there during this period, they say Facebook might have caught

491
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: some of these problems sooner if employees were encouraged to

492
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: deliver honest feedback. You can't deliver honest feedback if you're

493
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: moving fast and break and show well, you can't deliver

494
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: on his feedback with fucking Katana. Yeah. Well, Also, why

495
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: would you tell someone I think this product that we're

496
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: about to launch might break something If you're part of

497
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: half of your job is to break things right, you're

498
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: encouraged to and Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook employees rate each other

499
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: and then managers give them final grades to determine whether

500
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: or not they'll be promoted, fired, or give them raises.

501
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: Never learns a lesson, never, ever, ever, ever ever. I've

502
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: quoted BoJack Horseman once before in this show, but another

503
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: one of the truest fucking things that show ever pointed

504
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: out one of the characters is an agent saying that

505
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: the age in which you get rich is the age

506
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: in which your growth is forever stunted. So if you're rich,

507
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: are twenty forever? Yes, buy a shirt at T public

508
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: so I can stop aging at age thirty and by

509
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: my own blimp. That's a reasonable Yeah, good age to stop. Yeah,

510
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: still optimistic enough. You want to want to have a

511
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: light bulb fight after that lightbulb steal in spirit. I'm

512
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: not keeping the light bulbs. I just like the way

513
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: they shatter when you throw them at people. That's better,

514
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: You're right, it's way better. I'm not taking these light bulbs.

515
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 1: I don't want them. Cricket, cricket, cricket. I don't need

516
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: your judgment. Magbert. You do this in groups or so

517
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: low groups? Okay, Yeah, it's come along next time there's this.

518
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: This could go a lot of dir if you're doing

519
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: it alone. It's like just drunkenly throwing. No. I throw

520
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: light bulbs at people I love, oh affection, just like

521
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: at the ground next to them. So it's like it's

522
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: like a little puff. It's fun like firecrap. I didn't

523
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: do this to be judged, Okay, I feel it's gonna

524
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: be a great behind the best you can be on

525
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: ethical and still be legal my life. What if I

526
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: prefer to be ethical buddily goal. Right there we go. Yeah,

527
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 1: that course, treat people well, break the law. Yeah. So

528
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: employees rate each other, managers give them final grades that

529
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: determine whether or not they'll be promoted, fired, or given raises.

530
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: These grades are issued by quota, so managers are pressured

531
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: to underrate perfectly good employees just because the quota of

532
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: good employees has already been met. It sounds like a

533
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: stressful mess. The article goes into substantial detail about the

534
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: review process. This quote in particular stood out to me. Quote.

535
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: These twice yearly reviews encourage employees to be particularly productive

536
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: around June and December, working nights and weekends as they

537
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: race to impress bosses before reviews, which are typically completed

538
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: in August and February. It's especially true in December, the

539
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: half Facebook predominantly uses to determine which employees will receive promotions.

540
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: This rush causes employees to focus on short term goals

541
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: and push out features that drive user and engagement and

542
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: improve their own metrics without fully considering the potential long

543
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: term negative impacts on user experience or privacy. Multiple former

544
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: employees said, wow, fast break the world. Wow, it sounds

545
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: like a guy that's too dumb to run a company.

546
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: It sounds like twenty year old shouldn't have much responsibility.

547
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: Yeah he was. He was stunted at like a man

548
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: learned something all the time from that show about the

549
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 1: sad horse, about the sad horse, depressed Horse Show. That

550
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: the depressed horse show has some has some truth in

551
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: it too. Yeah, And horses are inherently sad. You never

552
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: see a horse land and like looking happy. Yes, me too.

553
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: Oh no, sad was the same horse there? Like we

554
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: killed a horse, Jimmie Loftus and I murdered a horse

555
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: and a light bulb. I'm gonna believe how it in

556
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: our defense, the horse started it. Yes, yes, very sad horse.

557
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: So Mark Zuckerberg has never wasted much time I'm worrying

558
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: about the consequences of his actions. He's more of an

559
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: asked questions later kind of guy, And as he aged

560
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: into a tech titan, Mark Zuckerberg remained pretty cavalier about

561
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: people's privacy. This would all come to a dangerous head

562
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: for the first time in two thousand seven with a

563
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: Facebook product called Beacon. I would like to quote from

564
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: a book titled appropriately enough, Move Fast and Break Things,

565
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: which is a really good book about all of these monsters,

566
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: but not just a Silicon val grows. This was essentially

567
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: an alert system that told your friends you had purchased

568
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: something on a partner site. It was built as an

569
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: opt out system, so you had to actively tell Facebook

570
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: each time you didn't want the site to broadcast your

571
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: purchase to all your friends. It was a total disaster

572
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: from the outset, but Zuckerberg was so confident that he

573
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: knew better than his users that he refused to turn

574
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: it off for many weeks while the pr disaster escalated. Eventually,

575
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: he relented and posted a mia colpa on his blog saying,

576
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: We've made a lot of mistakes building this feature, but

577
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: we've made even more with how we've handled them. Spite

578
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg's regret and a payment of nine point five million

579
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: for a class action suit over Beacon, many who worked

580
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: with him feel he doesn't really understand privacy. Charlie Cheever,

581
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: one of his key programmers, told Kirkpatrick, who's some guy.

582
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: I feel that Mark doesn't believe in privacy that much,

583
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: or at least believes in privacy is a stepping stone

584
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: to radical transparency. He The way he put out that

585
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: press release is the same way he talked to the

586
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: guy that he fucked over. I am so sorry. I

587
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: did something wrong here, I did something Go away away.

588
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 1: It means nothing to me, never has I've always been

589
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: rich and always will be. We'll have it resolved within

590
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: the year parentheses here now. Radical transparency is a buzz

591
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: term Mark brings up whenever he needs a high minded

592
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: ideological justification for doing precisely whatever the fuck he wants.

593
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: And two don twelve whatever the funk he wants included

594
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: fucking with people's emotions, just to see if that was possible.

595
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: Here is a quote from the hilariously named pen S

596
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: Scientific Journal. And it's p n A S but what

597
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: else could I call it? Plus they're a Penis journal.

598
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: It's a very serious scientific journal, the big dignat the

599
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: big swing science. We all got slapped with sciences. And

600
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: you don't go with the swings, you're gonna get slapped.

601
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: Here's Penas nice. In an experiment with people who use Facebook,

602
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: we test whether emotional contagion occurs outside of in person

603
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: interaction between individuals by reducing the amount of emotional content

604
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: and the news feed. When positive expressions were reduced, people

605
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: produced fewer positive posts and more negative posts. When negative

606
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: expressions were reduced, the opposite pattern occurred. These results indicate

607
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: that the emotions expressed by others on Facebook influence our

608
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: own emotions, constituting experimental evidence for massive scale contagion via

609
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: social networks. A k A. We used Facebook to see

610
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: if we could make people sad, and we can. It

611
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: works now. The researchers she carried out this study had

612
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: previously studied real life social networks to you know, to

613
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: study the same sort of emotional contagion, but with like

614
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: actual groups of friends. You know, your buddy sad, she

615
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: calls you, he called you know, you get sad too. Um,

616
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: this is the way people have always worked. They then

617
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: went to Facebook to see if the social network was

618
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: down to play guinea pig with its users. Facebook totally was.

619
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: They and the researchers found quote emotional states can be

620
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: transferred to others via emotional contagient, leading people to experience

621
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: the same emotions without their awareness. In other words, they

622
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: proved that emotional states like anger or hopelessness could be

623
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: spread via Facebook. Facebook proved this by determining what kinds

624
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: of content got pushed to the timelines of each of

625
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: its users effectively manipulating their emotions just to see if

626
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: it was possible. People got angry. Facebook responded with faux regret,

627
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: and Mark Zuckerberg kept pretty quiet about this whole thing.

628
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: But if you followed the guy's history and intellectual development,

629
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: you can understand why an experiment like this would be

630
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: pretty in line with his past behavior. It's just another

631
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: like a woman versus cow situation. It's like if one

632
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: girl is deemed unhot, then other people will agree unhot,

633
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: and then we'll just reshape what is hot. Yeah, so

634
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: that's fun. What else is fun is products also services,

635
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: consumable items that you can spend money on and then

636
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: have in your home. The big swinging Dick of Capital

637
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: of the Swinging Dicks or one the hanging Labia Heavy

638
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: Wonderful women's CEOs care about people. If you want to

639
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: support the heavy swinging Labia, that support their show by

640
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: these products, we're back. Maggie Mayfish just said something through

641
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,959
Speaker 1: a mouthful of derritos. I'm about to do the same,

642
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: oh Man, better than us swinging Labia. I'd rather lick

643
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: these Yes. Yes. In June, all Facebook was in the

644
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: midst of playing with their users emotions. Glenn Greenwald published

645
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: an article to the Guardian based on Edward Snowden's releases.

646
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: The article revealed that the National Security Agency had been

647
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: given access to huge amounts of data from Facebook, Google, Apple,

648
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: and several other major Internet companies. When Mark Zuckerberg was

649
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: asked about Glenn Greenwald's article, he said, frankly, the government

650
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: blew it and lamented that the state had done a

651
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: bad job of protecting privacy. Why uh, you know what,

652
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: just because it's so bold, I'll give him that one.

653
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: I'll give him that now. In March of two fifteen,

654
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: the Guardian broke what would turn out to be a

655
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: critically important story. Millions of americans personal data had been

656
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: harvested through a Facebook app without their knowledge and handed

657
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: off to a little company called Cambridge Analytica. In an

658
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: interview Mark Zuckerberg gave with Ricode in two thousand eighteen,

659
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: he swore that as soon as Facebook was alerted to

660
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: the harvesting of their user data by Cambridge Analytica's Alexander

661
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: Cogan quote, we immediately shut down the app, took away

662
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: his profile, and demanded certification that the data was deleted. However,

663
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: further reporting from The Guardian showed that Facebook didn't suspend

664
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: Cogan or Cambridge Analytica until March of two thousand eighteen,

665
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: like two or three months before the interview in which

666
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg swore they'd banned his ass back in two thousand fifteen. Now,

667
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: I'd say it has been proven beyond much doubt that

668
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg's attitude about the value of other people's privacy

669
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: has not changed much since the days when he stole

670
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: people's pictures to build an app where kids could vote

671
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: on which of their female classmates was hotter than a cow.

672
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: Thankfully we know how Mark Zuckerberg and the other Facebook

673
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: top brass really feel about the value of their users privacy.

674
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: Last year, the British government released an enormous cash of

675
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: internal company emails to the public. The data included this

676
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: bit from two thousand twelve. I'm going to quote Recode's

677
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: fantastic coverage and Kara Swisher with Ricode has done some

678
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: of the best reporting on Mark Zuckerberg in the best

679
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: holding of his in the in the front lane when

680
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: he yes, Harris Wisher is a really good ship in

681
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: the tech industry of the tech journalists. She's like, she's

682
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: she's solid. I'm gonna quote recodes coverage and two thousand twelve,

683
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg suggested that Facebook charged some outside developers for accessing

684
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: and collecting data on users through the company's ap i

685
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 1: S software that allows Facebook to share data with other apps.

686
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: If we make it so debs can generate revenue for

687
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: us in different ways. That makes it more acceptable for

688
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: us to charge them quite a bit more for using

689
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: the platform, Zuckerberg wrote. He suggested that developers could offset

690
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 1: these charges by spending money on Facebook ads. Now. Facebook

691
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: said they didn't actually go through with that, but the

692
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: fact that Mark Zuckerberg himself suggested doing the same thing

693
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: Cabage Analytico would do three years later, Suggesse probably was

694
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: not that mfended by the concept. Mark published a Facebook

695
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: post to address this and other revelations. Quote, Like any organization,

696
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: we had a lot of internal discussion and people raise

697
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: different ideas. Ultimately, we decided on a model where we

698
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: continue to provide the developer platform for free and developers

699
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: could choose to buy ads a they wanted. This model

700
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: has worked well. Other ideas we considered but decided against,

701
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: included charging developers for usage of our platform. Similar to

702
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 1: how developers pay to use Amazon Aws or Google Cloud.

703
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 1: To be clear, that's different from selling people's data. We've

704
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: never sold anyone's data, but it kind of sounds like

705
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: that's exactly what Facebook did. Here's recode quote. In some cases,

706
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: Facebook granted other businesses like Netflix and Lift special permission

707
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: to access information that other companies didn't have, So they

708
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: didn't sell data directly. But people who paid Facebook a

709
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 1: shipload and ad dollars got access to more user data

710
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: which they didn't pay for, but they got access to

711
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: because they were paying more money to Facebook, which is

712
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: different from paying for data. Because a lawyer can argue

713
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: that it's legally distinct from selling access to people's data,

714
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: and I'm sure it is in a court of law

715
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 1: until it's proven not hopefully, it's like until the laws

716
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: need to be made to make the distinction clear, to

717
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: make it a crime what they did, which I think

718
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: is it ethically at It's like a crime in the

719
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: hearts of any decent person, but anyweah, well, we know

720
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: how Zucky feels about ethics. Zucky Zuck ha ha ha.

721
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: So that article also revealed that companies that Facebook found

722
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: threatening to their bottom line had their access to use

723
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: your data restricted. Quote. When Twitter launched the video service

724
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: Fine in two thousand twelve, Facebook cut off access to

725
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: its friend graph. That meant users who signed up for

726
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: Vine with their Facebook account couldn't see and connect with

727
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 1: all their Facebook friends inside Vine, and ability that would

728
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: have theoretically helped Vine create a network much faster. Yeah.

729
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: I don't feel that sorry for Twitter either, but you know,

730
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 1: just rap god, I mean imagine, I mean, and Vine

731
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: still managed to happen in spite of it all the Paul,

732
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: you know what the Vine is, how Alex Jones finally

733
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: flamed out, And I'm I'll always be grateful for that. Yeah,

734
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: he was finding when he was on Capitol Hill people. Yeah,

735
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: that was very sad to see. It was a fun day.

736
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: That was a fun day watching the news. Now the

737
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: emails that have been revealed make it clear that Suck's

738
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: issue was never with the selling of data. He doesn't

739
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: give one funk about that. He didn't seem to care

740
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: a lot about the fact that he wasn't able to

741
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 1: charge people to steal his customers data. And another email

742
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg sent and two's and twelve, he complained that quote

743
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: not charging still means people were overuse and abuse our

744
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: a p I s and waste money for us. I

745
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: think we should implement some kind of program where you

746
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: have to pay if he used too many of our resources.

747
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 1: So by two fifteen, there was a lot of shady

748
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: stuff out in the world about Mark Zuckerberg, but the

749
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: lions share of the coverage of the man and his

750
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: brain baby was still unfailingly positive. That two thou fifteen

751
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: Business Insider article that I keep gleefully quoting is only

752
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: one example of a big fat pile of similar content.

753
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: Articles about Mark during this period tended to emphasize his

754
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: casual dress and down to earth personality. Many included a

755
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: quote from Tyler Winkle Boss stating that Mark is the

756
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: poorest looking rich guy he's ever seen since Tyler Winklevoss

757
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: was literally born a millionaire. I'm not super trusting that

758
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: he's a good judge of how poor people look. Yeah,

759
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: is like, well, not to make too fine a point

760
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: on it, but Mark Zuckerberg looks like shit, and he

761
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: looks like the guy who fixed my toilet the one

762
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: time that the rich person plumber wasn't available. Here's another

763
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: quote from that fantastic Business Insider article, but despite his billions,

764
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: Zack seems incredibly down there. He holds regular town hall

765
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: style Q and A sessions where he chats with regular

766
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: people from all around the world. I want to show

767
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: you guys a shot from one that took place in May, Maggie,

768
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 1: I think you're the person to describe this. Do you

769
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: just want a clip of me crying. He's just a

770
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 1: man of the people, you know, God, he's just beating people.

771
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 1: He was our struggles. Someone's doing a shakuh I didn't read.

772
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: During this time. He was like posting on Facebook about

773
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 1: all his meetings, and there's a post where he realizes

774
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: in real time that slavery still has lasting impacts. Yeah,

775
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: and you know, yeah, yeah, it's how many of those

776
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 1: people do you think are wax statues play one Mark

777
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 1: zuckerber I will note that there are not very many

778
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: black men in the audience, but one of the few

779
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: is right next to Yeah, the ones that yeah, I

780
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: don't know how they asked that in the room, but

781
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: somehow they got him to come to the front and

782
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: surround Mark Zuckerberg. Two fifteen would be Mark Zuckerberg's last

783
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: full year is being seen as mostly a good guy

784
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: by the outside world. The two thousand sixteen election brought

785
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: questions of fake news and Russian propaganda being spread through

786
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: the social networks. I wanted to ground these episodes as

787
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: much as possible on Mark Zuckerberg the and before we

788
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: get into the terrible consequence of some of his actions,

789
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: because the fact of the matter is that Facebook is

790
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 1: a tool and a tool someone was going to build

791
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 1: at some point. There is no version of network humanity

792
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 1: where we don't end up with something like this at

793
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: some point. But Mark Zuckerberg is the first guy who

794
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: got it right, and as a result, his personal characteristics

795
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: have had a huge impact on how this colossus has

796
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 1: impacted the world. Now Tomorrow, in part three, we're going

797
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: to discuss exactly how Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg production has changed

798
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: our world. Throughout parts one and two, we've talked about

799
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: him moving fast. In part three, we're going to talk

800
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: about what he broke. So everybody ready, let's do it.

801
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: You go okay? Oh oh dear uh. Well, you can

802
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: find me on Zuckerberg platform, in Stack Graham at Jamie

803
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: christ Superstar. You can find me on on Jack's website

804
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 1: and Jamie Lance's Help and listen to the Bechdel Cast

805
00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: on Tim's platform. Yeah. Uh, that's a lot of man's names,

806
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 1: a lot of the Internet. Uh. Yeah. You can also

807
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: find me on all these male dominated spaces on Twitter

808
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: and Instagram, Maggie may Fish. Yeah, you can find me

809
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: inside of any bag of Dorito's you buy because they're

810
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: in my spirit resides m haunting. You can find us

811
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 1: on them on Twitter at bastards pot. You can find

812
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 1: us on the Internet at behind the Bastards dot com.

813
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: Do that. We're on every Tuesday. We sell t shirts

814
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: on t public, we sell cups, we sell the posters, stickers,

815
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 1: we sell they're not technically living sentient beings, but they've

816
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: been engineered to serve you. Uh and they don't have

817
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: any legal rights yet, so it's fine. So yeah, all

818
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: of that that sounds on the up and up on

819
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: the oup and up. The episode tomorrow