1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,399 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marktiz Show on Imeartradio. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: My guest today is Kat Rosenfield, columnist and the Free 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: Press and author of six novels, including the soon to 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: be released How to Survive in the Woods. 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: So nice to have you on. 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 3: Kat, Thank you so much for having me. 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: So you write columns at Free Press, but you're also 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 1: a fiction writer, and I find those two things to 9 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: be very different from each other. Do you find that 10 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: they're a completely different skill set? Like I could not 11 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: write fiction at all, and I can write columns like 12 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: standing on my Head? So do you see a difference 13 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: between them or are they kind of the same category 14 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: to you? 15 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 4: I mean, I want to say, like, don't sell yourself short. 16 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 4: You may find someday that there's a novel inside of you. 17 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 4: I think of fiction writing and the journalism and the 18 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 4: culture writing that I do as approaching the same set 19 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 4: of questions from different angles in different ways, and so 20 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 4: to me, they inform each other. I'm very interested in 21 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 4: trying to describe what I'm seeing in the world and 22 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 4: trying to understand the world, and I think that journalism 23 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 4: and fiction offer two different ways, too, different lenses through 24 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 4: which to do that, but. 25 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 3: There's a lot of interplay there. 26 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: I guess I could see that. 27 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: I just feel like it's a completely different style of 28 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: writing that I I'm not telling myself short, I just 29 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: know I can't do it. So I see my own 30 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: brand as just be normal, And you know, that's sort 31 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,839 Speaker 1: of where where I feel like my writing comes from. 32 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: And I see you very similarly, especially where the topics 33 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: of sex and gender are concerned. Like, I think a 34 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: lot of your columns are like, just be normal about sex. 35 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: Do you feel like that's true or is there more? 36 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 4: Yeah? 37 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. 38 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that I'm as prescriptive about it as that. 39 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 4: I try mostly to stay on the like is side 40 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 4: of the ISA distinction. I'm not really interested in telling 41 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 4: people how to live or what to do. But when 42 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 4: it comes to things like sex, I do think that 43 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 4: I frequently end up just pointing at something that is 44 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 4: true and a little bit inconvenient. 45 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 3: Which is that we got rid of a lot of. 46 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 4: The traditional strictures and structures surrounding sex, and you know, 47 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 4: there were good reasons for doing that, and then maybe 48 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 4: there were some not some good reasons for doing that. 49 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 4: You know, I would say like feminism, women's liberation. Good 50 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 4: reason for doing it, just the urge to burn down 51 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 4: everything old Maybe not such a good reason. But the 52 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 4: upshot of all of it, you know, whatever the original 53 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 4: motivations were, is that we dismantled something that was a 54 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 4: sort of a Chesterton's fence. It was performing a function 55 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 4: in society, and we didn't replace it with anything. And 56 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 4: now we're sort of flailing around trying to reinvent new 57 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 4: rules on the fly, and we don't really know what 58 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 4: to do, and it's not going very well. So when 59 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 4: it comes to things like sex, yeah, I think that 60 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 4: we have gotten into this weird place where there's this 61 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 4: expectation about how it's going to go, especially for people 62 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 4: who are inexperienced and young, and it's just sort of 63 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 4: understanding their sexuality for the time that is not aligned 64 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 4: at all with reality or how things work for most people. 65 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: Interesting. I love telling people what to do. 66 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: I don't understand at all not telling people what to do. 67 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: I think that's also part of my brand. So how 68 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: did you get into writing about this or how did 69 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: you find this? 70 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 2: Do you feel like this is your beat? I guess 71 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: I should start with. 72 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: That culture is my beat. 73 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 4: Every time someone says, like, what exactly do you write 74 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 4: about it, I'll paraphrase and rather steal from Diddyon and say, 75 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 4: I'm just writing to understand what I see and what 76 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 4: it means. I'm very interested in how we treat each 77 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 4: other as people who we are to each other, and 78 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 4: increasingly I'm getting interested in sort of the moral questions 79 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 4: of what we owe to each other. The word morality 80 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 4: I used to shy away from a lot more, but 81 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 4: I'm rediscovering that it's useful when talking about, you know, 82 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 4: interpersonal relationships or the state of the human race. And 83 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 4: So how did I get into writing about this particular 84 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 4: things that I write about now? I actually really owe 85 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 4: in large part to having been a young adult fiction 86 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 4: writer at a time when a lot of the things 87 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 4: that came into the cultural mainstream around i want to say, 88 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty that really broke forth in what 89 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 4: we think of as like the Great Awokening, which I'm 90 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 4: using scare quotes away. I was in the young adult 91 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 4: fiction community as an author, and young adult fiction is 92 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 4: where a lot of kind of wacky stuff that eventually 93 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 4: broke out mainstreams started to incubate early and I saw 94 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 4: it happening. I saw this very sensorial, censorious, very like 95 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 4: angry and sort of weaponized social justice rhetoric starting to 96 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 4: take effect. Everybody was like intently focused on politics, as 97 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 4: that they were a proxy for character. And I said 98 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 4: something about this really foolishly apparently. 99 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: Immediately got canceled. 100 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 4: Basically, yeah, but you know what happened there was as 101 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 4: I mean, personally, it's not fun to be canceled. It's 102 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 4: you know, one of the more excruciating experiences you can 103 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 4: have as an adult. But journalistically, it was very interesting 104 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 4: to me that this happened, and I got very curious 105 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 4: about the dynamics that fuel something like this, you know, 106 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 4: that make people so afraid of somebody just observing. 107 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 3: Things that are you know, true in their community. 108 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: And different from what they're observing. 109 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: That's really the problem is that you had a perspective 110 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: that they didn't share and that couldn't be allowed and 111 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,679 Speaker 1: that needed to be immediately put down. 112 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: How did you get out of it? Like, how did 113 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 2: you recover? 114 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 4: It took a few years, but the thing that happened 115 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 4: there where I did not write another young adult fiction novel. 116 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 4: I haven't written one since that was twenty seventeen, so 117 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 4: that part of my life did effectively end because the 118 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 4: community kind of ostracized me and it made. 119 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 3: It difficult for me to be there. 120 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 4: But the fact that it was journalistically interesting to me 121 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 4: that had happened made me want to investigate it more deeply, 122 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 4: and I ended up writing about not specifically my cancelation, 123 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 4: because I think that's kind of boring, but about the 124 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 4: dynamics holistically that caused something like this to unfold into 125 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 4: from a moment where descent is considered intolerable into a 126 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 4: full blown witch hunt. 127 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 3: And I wrote about that. 128 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 4: For Vulture and this piece called the Toxic Drama of 129 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 4: Why Twitter, and I wrote about this book. 130 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 3: I remember this, Yeah, yeah, that was twenty seventeen. 131 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 4: This book Got the Black Witch was sort of my 132 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 4: case study for how one of these campaigns to destroy 133 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 4: somebody who's considered to have run a foul of the 134 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 4: community's political pieties in some way. I did an examination 135 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 4: of that. I talked to a bunch of people, and 136 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 4: that piece just went wildly viral, and I realized at 137 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 4: that point that I had stumbled onto something that not 138 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 4: only did I find interesting, but that. 139 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: Other people found interesting. To read about. 140 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think twenty seventeen, you know, it wasn't 141 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: really a thing yet. I think twenty twenties, early twenty 142 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: twenties is really where cancel culture got going. Maybe in 143 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: the YA world, that's where it was happening, like you said, originally, 144 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: but it wasn't a widespread thing yet. I wish I 145 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: had the date, But when was the whole I forgot 146 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: the girl's name, but has blank landed yet? The thing 147 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: that yeah, Justine Siko, has Justine landed yet? 148 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 3: I think that was twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen, It 149 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 3: was earlier. It was early on. Yeah, you know, you. 150 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 4: Had these sort of emergent dynamics how we were treating 151 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: each other on social media. People were starting to realize 152 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 4: that it was an amazing tool for public shaming, and 153 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 4: then in communities that had gotten very like politically orthodox, 154 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 4: it was used as a method of not just shaming, 155 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 4: but shunning, you know, ostracization, professional destruction. 156 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, she got. 157 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: Fired upon landing because she had made a joke about 158 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: going to Africa and hoping she doesn't get and she 159 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: wasn't like a public figure or anything. It wasn't it 160 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: wasn't like your congressman said this, it was just some 161 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: lady on Twitter. 162 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean even worse than that. It was a joke. 163 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 4: Actually that was intended to be self depreciating and at 164 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 4: her own expense. She was trying to make a joke 165 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 4: about her own white privilege. And that was such an 166 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 4: interesting example of how the people who end up getting 167 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 4: just really bitten the hardest by this type of dynamic 168 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 4: are the ones who subscribe to it already. You know, 169 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 4: they're already trying to apologize for their privilege or whatever 170 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 4: it is, and that makes them that much more susceptible 171 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 4: to being destroyed by it. 172 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 173 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: I've written about this a lot, where there was only 174 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: so much, for example, that this cancel culture thing could 175 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: do to conservatives, like how are you going to cancel? 176 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro, Like, I don't like where you said, you know, 177 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: canceled It wouldn't matter. But they really did go after 178 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: liberals more than anybody else because they were the easiest 179 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: to take down because they already believed in a lot 180 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: of it. 181 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: Did you always want to be a writer? 182 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 4: Stumbled backwards into it? I always liked to write, but 183 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 4: when I graduated from college, I needed to make a living, 184 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 4: and I didn't really understand writing as a thing that 185 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 4: was remunerative in any way. 186 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 3: I had just had this image of somebody like a 187 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 3: in a. 188 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 4: Turret in a tower, wearing fingerless gloves, like typing and starving. 189 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 3: So I started out actually as a publicist. 190 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 4: And I have never been more terrible at a job 191 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 4: in my life. Publicity, I think, is in many ways 192 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: the option of journalism, which I think of as a 193 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 4: truth seeking enterprise. Publicity is about trying to like tell people, 194 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 4: you know, convince people that a bad thing is good 195 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 4: and just the story. 196 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: You want told bad but yes, you want them to 197 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: tell the story you are away. 198 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: Yes exactly. 199 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 4: You're trying to manipulate the narrative instead of uncover the truth. 200 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 4: And you know, journalism, I think is about uncovering the truth. 201 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 4: I'm much more comfortable on the other side of things. 202 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 4: I was such so a terrible publicist. It's like indescribable. 203 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 2: What was bad about it? 204 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: Like, did you feel like it was hard to kind 205 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: of cold call people? I also did pr in the 206 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: early days of my employment, but I didn't love calling 207 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: people on the phone. 208 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 4: But other than that, yeah, I mean, that was the 209 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 4: era of the cold call before everything went digital, and 210 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 4: I did get yelled at on the phone, yeah, a 211 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 4: few different people. 212 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 3: What else was I bad at? 213 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 4: Just you know, that type of social interaction, having to 214 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 4: hype something up. 215 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 3: I found it really really exhausting. 216 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 4: And that was on top of office culture, which just 217 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 4: generally was not a great fit for me. I've always 218 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 4: been meant to be in the turret with the typewriter. 219 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: As it turns out, I like that. 220 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: Well. One of the people that yelled at me when 221 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: I was in PR was Fred Dicker. He was a 222 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: journalist in New York. I guess he covered state politics 223 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: and he was the scariest person to call. And now 224 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: we're friends and he's been on the show. So oh, 225 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: life can comfortll circle. 226 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 3: I love that. I wish I could remember the names 227 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 3: of somebody who me, but oh, he. 228 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 2: Was the scariest. 229 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: So I'd never forget Fred Dicker for sure. We're going 230 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: to take a quick break and be right back on 231 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: the Carol Marcowitch Show. 232 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: I think when I met you in New York? Am 233 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 2: I crazy? Or did you do yoga teaching? 234 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 3: I do? Yeah? 235 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: I do? 236 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 4: Still yeah, yeah, less than I do or less than 237 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 4: I did. Rather, I was prior to the pandemic, teaching 238 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 4: between ten and fifteen classes a week, and now I'm 239 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 4: down to two because it's it takes a lot of 240 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 4: time I prefer to be writing. It's you know, a 241 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 4: better use of my time to be writing. And also 242 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 4: as I go deeper into middle age, I find that 243 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 4: making a living with my body is like I make 244 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 4: it sound like I'm actually a prostitute, but. 245 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 3: It's hard, you know, it's grueling, it's. 246 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 2: Exhausted living with my body. 247 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 248 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: I like that though. 249 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: I like the way that sounds, even though it might 250 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: be questionable to some people. 251 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, so you do still do it, but I do still. 252 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 4: I find that it's interesting because yoga teaching is actually 253 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 4: an example of what people originally meant to describe when 254 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 4: the term emotional labor was coined, where it's you're managing 255 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 4: people's moods. It's a in some sense as a service 256 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 4: oriented position. And I really unironically. 257 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 3: Love that about it. 258 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 4: I Yeah, I love you know, the you know, being 259 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 4: able to kind of hold the energy in a room. 260 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 3: I sound very woo woo right now, but I get it. 261 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, yoga is my community. I love everybody who is there. 262 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 4: The studio where I work is within walking distance of 263 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 4: my house. So I feel like this is this very embodied, 264 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 4: physical and other person focused thing that I do that 265 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 4: allows me to keep a foot in the real world and. 266 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 3: To just be normal, like you were. 267 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 4: Just which I do is important, even if it's not 268 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 4: my ethos as a writer, it is kind of my 269 00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 4: ethos as a person. 270 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, And you give off this very calm, 271 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: peaceful vibe. Nothing to you, I feel like you really 272 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: radiate that for sure. What do you worry about switching 273 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: to something completely negative? 274 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 4: Oh God, I worry about This is a weird thing, 275 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 4: but it's something I've been thinking about a lot, trying 276 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 4: to keep the space around me beautiful when I feel 277 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 4: like it is trying to like empty the ocean with 278 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 4: a teaspoon. This is I wasn't expecting to talk about this, 279 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 4: so it may make it a little bit galaxy brained, 280 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 4: But I've been thinking a lot about the work of 281 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 4: preserving beauty, which is I think, a kind of a small, 282 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 4: c conservative way to view the world, you know, understanding 283 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 4: that life is precious. 284 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 3: I think a lot, for instance, about like the. 285 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 4: Trees in the town where I live, and how people 286 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 4: are always trying to cut them down because they're inconvenient 287 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 4: in some way. And I'm always hoping that nobody will 288 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 4: cut the trees down because they're beautiful, and you know, 289 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 4: it takes a really really long time to grow a 290 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 4: new one. You can't just like willy nilly destroy things. 291 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 4: And I feel like there it takes so many people 292 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 4: of my mindset to make a dent against the impulses 293 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 4: of just one person who doesn't share that mindset, who 294 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 4: tends towards destruction, or who wants to create ugliness. And 295 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 4: so yeah, this is like the kind of big existential 296 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 4: thing that I worry about. I feel like I'm fighting 297 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 4: a losing battle against people who want to make the 298 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 4: world ugly on purpose. 299 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: Really well, why do they want to make it ugly 300 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: on purpose? But I believe you, I just I'm trying 301 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: to think what their motivations could be. 302 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 4: I mean, one of the things that I was really 303 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 4: bizarrely distressed by was the pa and e vandalism that 304 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 4: happens in ann Arbor. 305 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 3: Did you hear about this? Oh yeah, somebody a vandalized peonies. 306 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 4: They went into this botanical garden where they have a 307 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 4: spectacular pa andy bloom every year, and of course, you know, 308 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 4: peonies are a short lived flower, so it was like, 309 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 4: you know, a week or two out of the year 310 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 4: where everything is just extravagantly in bloom and so beautiful, 311 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 4: and it's and it's so tenuous this moment, and it 312 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 4: was about to be that moment the peonies had finally bloomed, 313 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 4: and these people went in and they cut the heads 314 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 4: off all of the pennies for Palestine. 315 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: Oh man, yeah. 316 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: And they can say ann arbor, like that's really gross. 317 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 4: And they left these flyers all over the garden saying like, basically, 318 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 4: we ruined this beautiful thing because you don't deserve to 319 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 4: think about beautiful things or enjoy beautiful things when somewhere 320 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 4: in the world something bad is happening. 321 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: And that's, you know, to me. 322 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 4: An example of people who think they're you know, they're 323 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 4: making the world ugly for a good cause, so to speak. 324 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 4: But I don't think it's a good thing to do. 325 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 4: I think it's actually incredibly evil. 326 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, how many Palestinians were freed because they cut off 327 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: those peonies. 328 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 3: I'm gonna just go ahead and ball park it at zero. 329 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: Right. 330 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: It's just it's ridiculous. What a ridiculous thing to do, 331 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry for those flowers. That's a really interesting take. 332 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: I really never thought about people making the world uglier 333 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: for their variety of causes. What you know, even if 334 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: I agreed with the cause, I still would find that 335 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: to be just repulsive. 336 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: And how dare you? 337 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? 338 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I find it so nihilistic and so upsetting for 339 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 4: that reason, it just feels like an incredible breach of 340 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 4: the social contract. 341 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, what advice would you give your sixteen year old self? Like, 342 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: what a sixteen year old cat need to know? 343 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 4: Ooh, you know, there are things that I might have 344 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 4: wanted not to experience at that time in my life 345 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 4: because they were painful. But on the other hand, they 346 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 4: were incredibly formative and incredibly useful experiences. So I don't 347 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 4: think that I would tell her anything except keep doing 348 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 4: what you're doing. Hmmm. 349 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: I like that because teenagers love to hear doing what 350 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: you're doing. 351 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: It's funny, a lot of people. 352 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: Have a lot of things that they would tell their 353 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: teenager to change, because I think that they're maybe not 354 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: even the people who are happy with how things turned out, 355 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: they still think their teenager could have done a better job. 356 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: Kind of getting them to that adulthood point. But it's 357 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: interesting that you wouldn't want to change anything. 358 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 2: Where did you grow up? 359 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 3: Upstate New York? A little town called Koksaki? 360 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know. 361 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: I know upstate pretty well, but not there. 362 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 4: The jokes that I always tell, the joke I always 363 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 4: tell about Koksaki is that unless you know somebody in 364 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 4: prison or you are a dairy farmer, I know might 365 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 4: have not heard of it. 366 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: Interesting, I actually know some prisons upstate, just not New York. 367 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 3: Kuksak. 368 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, that's there too. 369 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 3: There. 370 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 4: That is, it is the part of upstate New York 371 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 4: that's rural enough, but also I guess close enough to 372 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 4: whatever necessary infrastructure that they do have correctional facilities up there. 373 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: Well, I've loved this conversation. 374 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: I've always thought your writing was so interesting and just unusual, 375 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: and you're a fantastic writer. But I love the way 376 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: you cover topics, and I love the perspective that you have. 377 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners 378 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: on how they can improve their lives. 379 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, I mean, I want to riff on 380 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 4: the thing that I was previously saying and just encourage 381 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 4: them to kind of make make things beautiful where they can. 382 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 4: This has ended up being the most wu woo conversation. 383 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 4: I've never had one like it. 384 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: It's all right, we accept all here on the show. 385 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 386 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm in a little bit of a weird 387 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 4: woo woo place, but I you know, I really want 388 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 4: to encourage people to rediscover, like I kind of embodied 389 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 4: in sensory pleasures, including you know, making the space around 390 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 4: them beautiful, including you know, things like looking at your 391 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 4: full r or you know, experiencing the kind of tactile 392 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 4: pleasures of the world like enjoy your food, Smell the 393 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 4: rose that you pass on your walk, like go outside 394 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 4: and take a walk, touch grass, be. 395 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:12,959 Speaker 3: Normal grass, Yeah, be normal. 396 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: Don't cut the peonies. Yeah she is Kat Rosenfield. Check 397 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: her out at the Free Press and look for her 398 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: new book, How to Survive in the Woods, coming next spring. 399 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on. 400 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 3: Kat, Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.