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Speaker 1: Welcome to Rolling Stones five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast

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Speaker 1: based on Rolling stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversial list.

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Speaker 1: I'm Britney Spanos and.

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Speaker 2: I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to shed light on the

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Speaker 2: greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great.

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Speaker 1: So we have a song that a song bite artist

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Speaker 1: that Rob and I have many many hours of recorded

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Speaker 1: conversations on, even more hours of unrecorded conversations on. And

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Speaker 1: that is Taylor Swift and her song blank Space, which

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Speaker 1: made the twenty twenty one list at number three hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty seven. It is one of two Taylor songs

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Speaker 1: are on the list, the others All Too Well, which

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Speaker 1: made it at number sixty nine. Robin, I figure that

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Speaker 1: we've talked about all too Well more than any two

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Speaker 1: people have spoken about All too Well. You can listen

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Speaker 1: to Rolling Stone Music now if you want to hear

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Speaker 1: more of us talking about All tu Well. We haven't

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Speaker 1: talked enough about Blank Space, though. I feel like we've

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Speaker 1: talked about it a bunch, but not.

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Speaker 3: Enough, never enough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this song is just totally inexhaustible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean even like just to wrap up

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Speaker 1: All Too Well, quickly. Is the fact that it came out,

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Speaker 1: that the list came out before the ten minute version

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Speaker 1: even came out is pretty remarkable.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, the list really needs an asterisk on it specifying

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Speaker 2: that this is all pretty the ten minute all too well.

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Speaker 1: So. Flank Space is on Taylor Swift's twenty fourteen album

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine. This is Taylor's full pop moment. This

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Speaker 1: is the album where she completely shakes off any of

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Speaker 1: the country sound of her past. She started to do

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Speaker 1: it a little bit with the Right. Of course, that

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Speaker 1: was the first time that she worked with Max Martin

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Speaker 1: and Shellback, and she had her first number one hit

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Speaker 1: with we Rt Never Getting Back Together, So it was

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Speaker 1: very promising already that people really loved pop Taylor, And

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Speaker 1: of course with nineteenighty nine she brings in Max Martin

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Speaker 1: and Shellback even more. She worked on nine of the

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Speaker 1: sixteen songs. If you think about the deluxe editions of

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Speaker 1: nineteeny nine, nine of the sixteen songs that she released

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Speaker 1: during that era with Max Martin and Shellback, and of

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Speaker 1: course blank Space is one of them. It's the second

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Speaker 1: single from the album, and I mean, I think everyone

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Speaker 1: was shocked when they first heard it. I think every

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Speaker 1: Taylor fan. It's hard to shock a Taylor fan nowadays,

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Speaker 1: but like we've just always that base level shocked. Yes,

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Speaker 1: But like Blank Space, I think was the first time

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Speaker 1: where people were really like, oh, this is like a

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Speaker 1: brand new tailor.

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Speaker 2: You could ask, is this one of the two big

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Speaker 2: shocks of in terms of Taylor's long history of shocking

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Speaker 2: people folklore obviously like such a huge shock, But nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine it was the complete opposite of what she

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Speaker 2: should have been doing. It made no career since no

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Speaker 2: commercial sense for her to be taking the red formula,

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Speaker 2: which she could have milked forever and just throwing it

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Speaker 2: out the window and doing something new.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean even with Redd the album, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we both love that album so much, and so much

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Speaker 1: of the joy of listening to it is that it

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Speaker 1: is kind of all over the place. She's talked about

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Speaker 1: it as her her Jackson Pollock album, where it's like

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Speaker 1: meant to be a little bit of a mess and

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Speaker 1: meant to be something that captures the messiness of breakup,

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Speaker 1: captures the messiness of being in your early twenties, captures

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Speaker 1: the messiness of her kind of figuring out the next

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Speaker 1: step of who Taylor Swift is, just because there are

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Speaker 1: so many of these country songs, but they also are

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Speaker 1: kind of a little bit like heartland rock ish, where

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of kind of moving a little bit

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Speaker 1: away from the country that she was making before and

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Speaker 1: those big pop songs of course, but nineteen nine it

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Speaker 1: is like such a cohesive album, especially in comparison to

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Speaker 1: to Red having a little bit of those multiple sides

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Speaker 1: and multitudes to them. But nineteen nine is so cohesive.

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Speaker 1: It's such a great sound. I mean, it's just like

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Speaker 1: it's just a really perfect album. I've only grown to

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Speaker 1: love more and more over the years.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's funny because now it's such a classic album,

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Speaker 2: one of her most beloved, and yet because it's so

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Speaker 2: beloved and canonical, it's easy to forget that at the

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Speaker 2: time it seemed like total self sabotage. There's so much

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Speaker 2: of the trademark Taylor sound she just totally ignores. There's

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Speaker 2: no twanging on the album, the whole steel guitar thing

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Speaker 2: she did. There's very little guitar at all in the

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Speaker 2: first half of the album, especially Yeah, and what people

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Speaker 2: thought of as the Tailor sound is a complete departure.

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Speaker 2: The first single, shake It Off. Yeah, that was one

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Speaker 2: of the songs that sort of cemented the tradition of

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Speaker 2: the Taylor lead single, which is usually a total departure

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Speaker 2: from the album. But blank Space, I think that's the

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Speaker 2: one that we think of when we think of nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean that song is so specific about

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Speaker 1: how it responds to a lot of criticism that Taylor

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Speaker 1: had been getting, and I think a lot of unjust

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Speaker 1: criticism that a lot of women, a lot of famous

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Speaker 1: women tend to get, which is her dating seemingly a

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Speaker 1: lot or the idea that she was dating for the

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Speaker 1: content for the songs, that she was a man eater,

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Speaker 1: that she she was playing the victim, whatever criticism people

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Speaker 1: would throw and you know, again, thinking about it just

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Speaker 1: in realistic terms, she is turning twenty five of the

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Speaker 1: year that she really she's twenty three or twenty four

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Speaker 1: when she's recording these songs. It's kind of insane to

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Speaker 1: think about all of those things being wielded at someone

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Speaker 1: who's in their early twenties and is famous and happens

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Speaker 1: to just also be dating famous men, and that's just

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Speaker 1: how life works. But this song sort of is her

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Speaker 1: directly responding to the haters in a way that is

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Speaker 1: even more kind of pointed than shaken office. Shake it

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Speaker 1: Off's more of kind of a general kind of like

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Speaker 1: this doesn't bother me, and playing space is her being

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Speaker 1: very satirical about a lot of those comments that people

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Speaker 1: have been wielding at her for years at that point.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And it's mind blowing to go back and

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Speaker 2: read the kind of stuff that was written about her

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Speaker 2: in the speak Now era, in the Red era, so

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Speaker 2: many interviews with her where it's all about her boyfriends

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Speaker 2: and nothing else. There's a really shocking Vanity Fair cover

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Speaker 2: story around this time where it's almost entirely about her boyfriends,

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Speaker 2: and at one point Taylor says, can we talk about

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Speaker 2: something besides my boyfriends? Maybe talk about my songs? Like

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Speaker 2: lots of young women have boyfriends, lots of young women

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Speaker 2: do a lot of dating, only one of them is

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Speaker 2: writing all these songs, making all these albums. She was

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Speaker 2: the biggest star in music at the time, but to

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Speaker 2: so much of the music world in the public at large,

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Speaker 2: she was just seen as this boy crazy young girl

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Speaker 2: who who wrote all her songs about her boyfriends. And

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Speaker 2: for a lot of people, they would explain away her

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Speaker 2: success by saying, oh, well, people just they like the

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Speaker 2: celebrity aspect of what she does. I know it was

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Speaker 2: exasperating for you at the time as a Taylor fan,

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Speaker 2: definitely exasperating for me at the time as a Taylor fan,

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Speaker 2: And yet this was her responding to it in a really,

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Speaker 2: like you said, brilliantly satirical way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and also kind of all the flack

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Speaker 1: that she got for right now, so many breakup songs,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not unusual thing in pop music. As

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Speaker 1: we've talked about extensively, it's not an unusual thing for

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Speaker 1: a songwriter to want to explore a breakup in their

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Speaker 1: music and kind of the emotions because a breakup is can.

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Speaker 3: Be very inspirational.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that come, a lot of

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Speaker 1: emotions that are unexpected that come from a breakup, and

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Speaker 1: Taylor is very good at pinpointing those and finding those

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Speaker 1: and really good at sort of finding like kind of

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Speaker 1: weird nuanced threads and scenes that she's able to pull

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Speaker 1: out of it.

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Speaker 3: And I think within a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen y nine, so much of it is so fascinating

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Speaker 1: lyrically and blank space in particular, where there's this kind

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Speaker 1: of give and take in the relationship where she's not, oh,

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Speaker 1: she's not acting perfectly, her partners are not acting perfectly.

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Speaker 1: A little bit of playing with that and a lot

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Speaker 1: of her songs, which I think is such a it's

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Speaker 1: an almost subtle move that if you're not listening I

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Speaker 1: guess closely to a lot of Taylor's music, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of you're still going to assume it's a lot of

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Speaker 1: breakup songs and all this stuff, but there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of kind of fun ways that she twists what the

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Speaker 1: idea of a breakup song can be, especially what the

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Speaker 1: idea of Taylor swept breakup song can be.

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Speaker 2: Totally. I love that she's always had that great sense

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Speaker 2: of humor about herself from the very beginning. It's like

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Speaker 2: at the time, people did not hear her clearly enough

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Speaker 2: to hear that she was in on like those sorts

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Speaker 2: of jokes, and she was the first one making them,

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Speaker 2: and it's wild that also, just the people for a

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Speaker 2: long time I think missed the pain in this song

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Speaker 2: and the anger that now like people have come to

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Speaker 2: sort of more appreciate those aspects of her songwriting, but

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Speaker 2: a lot of pain a lot of anger in the vocal, especially.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I think with Taylor and sort of the

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Speaker 1: arc of her songwriting too is you are very much

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Speaker 1: in real time witnessing a young woman sort of kind

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Speaker 1: of shed a lot of the fantasy and illusion of

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Speaker 1: what love is thinking about. Even just like her first

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Speaker 1: three albums, self titled, Fearless and To Speak Now, all

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Speaker 1: of those songs are so baked into the idea of

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Speaker 1: a fairy tale romance, Like she's using fairy tale kind

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Speaker 1: of lyrics and illusions in all of her songs through

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Speaker 1: those three albums. Of course, we have like the Shakespeare

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Speaker 1: reference and love story and a song like Enchanted where

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Speaker 1: she turns this crush into this like big kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, castle kind of meet and greet that she

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Speaker 1: has with this like this guy for like five seconds,

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Speaker 1: you know, And that's so much a big part of

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Speaker 1: the way that she views love in the first three albums,

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Speaker 1: and then by Ride it's completely that's you know, when

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Speaker 1: she starts to get to real kind of very realist

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Speaker 1: lyrics that she's doing and these like scenes and these

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Speaker 1: kind of very like sort of like tortured kind of

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Speaker 1: feelings and moments that she has in exchange like both

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Speaker 1: with the person after the person's gone, and with nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine, it's kind of fun to see her take

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Speaker 1: that to another level where she's able to kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, she has a song like Wow This Dreams,

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Speaker 1: which kind of has that sort of almost larger than

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Speaker 1: life kind of fairy tale essence to it, but still

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Speaker 1: like the lyrics themselves have this very kind of directness

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Speaker 1: and this very like you know, like I am now

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Speaker 1: the fantasy for you, like you'll be dreaming of me.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I love that, and that that wit

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Speaker 2: really starting to take off at this phase of her songwriting.

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Speaker 2: One of my all time favorite Taylor punchlines is in

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Speaker 2: Holy Ground Yeah song I know you love as much

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Speaker 2: as I do, And I never hear that song without

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Speaker 2: laughing hysterically at the part where she's talking about how

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Speaker 2: she's met this guy there. They're soulmates, they get each other,

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Speaker 2: They've all these private jokes. They're so absolutely and sinc

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Speaker 2: it's meant to be. And that was the first day.

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Speaker 2: I just yep, that's the first day. She just goes

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Speaker 2: from zero to sixty, and she definitely does that in

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Speaker 2: Blank Space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I love the bridge on it where

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Speaker 1: she says boys only want love of its torture. Don't

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Speaker 1: say I didn't warn yet. It's very very much like

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Speaker 1: the kind of like she's been through it and she's like,

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Speaker 1: I told you, Yeah, did you listen to my previous

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Speaker 1: four albums? Like have I not told you enough of

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Speaker 1: out how this works? Like how this goes. It's such

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Speaker 1: like a great great line. Also just I mean the

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Speaker 1: way that that light is. It's so funny and it's

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Speaker 1: so kind of like direct with a lot of that,

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Speaker 1: but I mean just the vocal layering on it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so much newness to how Taylor's thinking about herself

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Speaker 1: as an artist, thinking of how a song of hers

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Speaker 1: can be produced, thinking about how her vocals can be

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Speaker 1: on a song. That is such a big part of

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Speaker 1: what makes nineteen nine work so well and sounds so great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and still sounds so I mean, just like I mean,

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Speaker 1: just ahead of its time and what we've heard from

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Speaker 1: pop music since then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. She talked a lot about being inspired by

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Speaker 2: eighties pomp, and it was very much in that mode,

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Speaker 2: you know, she she didn't go halfway. The whole album

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Speaker 2: sounds so much like the first pet chop Boys album, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and first Erasure album. For much of hearing the album

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Speaker 2: for the first time, I was I kept wondering, where

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Speaker 2: are the ballads? Where are the guitar ballads? And I

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Speaker 2: kept thinking of girls like my niece, who is like

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Speaker 2: very young and who, like so many millions of girls,

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Speaker 2: learned to play guitar because she loved Taylor so much.

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Speaker 2: And I was thinking, what are all these fans going

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Speaker 2: to think when they hear her completely throw that overboard

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Speaker 2: and start over. And I guess I got my answer

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Speaker 2: when my niece was texting me the morning that nineteen

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Speaker 2: and I came out, and she said, this is the

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Speaker 2: best album of all time. It's not just Taylor's best album.

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Speaker 2: I think this was the first time that Taylor made

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Speaker 2: a big challenge like that to her audience, and the

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Speaker 2: rest of the world was shocked to find out that

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Speaker 2: the Taylor audience really liked that challenge. Yeah, and they

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Speaker 2: liked that she was always doing something different and they

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Speaker 2: loved going along with it. Yeah. And I think for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who must have been wondering how

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Speaker 2: this crazy move was going to go over, it was

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Speaker 2: a shock that people loved hearing her do this. People

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Speaker 2: loved hearing her have fun like this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was. I mean, just the amount

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Speaker 1: of success and how successful it was, and how much

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Speaker 1: of a cultural phenomenon this album in particular was at

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Speaker 1: that moment is kind of surreal. And also it's so

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Speaker 1: funny to think about in comparison to the moment that's

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Speaker 1: happening right now, because that felt so big and all consuming,

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Speaker 1: And we had spoken before before we started recording this

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Speaker 1: episode of just like the fact that I found my

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Speaker 1: year in Taylor Swift from twenty fifteen, and it literally

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Speaker 1: is just about how massive and omnipresent she was in

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Speaker 1: over the course of that year. And so it's so

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Speaker 1: fascinating because this was the one of the last times

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Speaker 1: that any artist was able. It was like her and

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Speaker 1: Adele where sort of the final two artists to do

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Speaker 1: the thing where they dropped the album but didn't have

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Speaker 1: it on streaming, and like, obviously no one does that anymore.

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Speaker 1: There are very few artists who were able to do

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Speaker 1: that then anyway, But I mean, that was such a

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Speaker 1: big moment because Taylor was sort of fighting against how

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Speaker 1: little streaming pays and had taken all her music off

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Speaker 1: of Spotify, and kept it off of Spotify for the

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Speaker 1: first I think maybe month or a couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: or something, and Adele did the same.

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Speaker 2: With twenty one twenty one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's the last time that artists had been

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Speaker 1: able to do that, and of course this was for

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Speaker 1: someone like Taylor to be able to do that. This

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Speaker 1: says a lot of fully note her fandom and the

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Speaker 1: fact that the album is still able to be as

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Speaker 1: big as it was and still is, but the fact

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Speaker 1: that it was just the beginning of even more kind

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Speaker 1: of wacky career decisions that like only Taylor Swift can

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Speaker 1: get away with, and that leading up to a moment

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Speaker 1: where you know, Blank Space can chart again because she's

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Speaker 1: playing it on tour. But I mean even before she

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Speaker 1: re released the re recorded version, people just were excited

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Speaker 1: to hear it on tour and it brought back all

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Speaker 1: those memories and made the song another big kind of

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Speaker 1: chart moment for her. And next up we will be

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Speaker 1: joined by Rolling Stone senior writer Brian Hyatt to talk

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Speaker 1: even more about Taylor Swift Blank Space. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: five hundred Gray Songs, and we were talking with Rolling

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Speaker 1: Stone senior writer Brian Hyatt and Brian, I know that

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Speaker 1: you love Taylor as much as we do. What did

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Speaker 1: you think of blank Space the first time you heard it?

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Speaker 1: Is before we heard All of nineteen eighty nine? Of course,

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Speaker 1: it was the second single from the album. What was

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Speaker 1: your immediate reaction to it?

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Speaker 4: All of nineteen eighty nine is obviously kind of a

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Speaker 4: huge leap for Tailor. She had hinted a little bit

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Speaker 4: at some of this, maybe unread, but this was it

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Speaker 4: was a blank slate that she started from that included

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Speaker 4: Blank Space.

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Speaker 3: She wiped the board and was starting over.

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Speaker 4: Sonically, Blank Space is probably the ultimate expression of that

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Speaker 4: at the time because of how stripped down and radical.

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Speaker 3: And minimalist and electronic it was.

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Speaker 4: For an artist who's pretty much everything had been pretty

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Speaker 4: organic and non minimalist up until then. Well, the artist

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Speaker 4: I think about original wizes prints, you know, and something

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Speaker 4: like when doves Cry, maybe kiss a little bit less,

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Speaker 4: but when doves cry, you know, just that where the

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Speaker 4: kind of the main instrument is a very carefully chosen

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Speaker 4: drum machine and a very carefully chosen reverb on the snare,

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Speaker 4: and then sure there's other things like a buzzing low

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Speaker 4: synth and some synth chords, but the main idea is

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Speaker 4: like basically like Tailor in this perfect drum machine, which

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Speaker 4: is why for me, Taylor's version is one case where

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Speaker 4: I can't quite hang yet with Taylor's version because the

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Speaker 4: slight differences that they had to make in the snare sound,

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Speaker 4: in the reverb like throw it off for me, because

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Speaker 4: it's it's for me. It's all about that exact thing.

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Speaker 4: I knew that she was gonna have a tough kind

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Speaker 4: of rote a ho with with that, with that one,

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Speaker 4: and yeah, that's one Tailor's version that doesn't like kill

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Speaker 4: it for me, although it's a valiant effort, it's as

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Speaker 4: close as you could get.

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Speaker 3: It had to be slightly different.

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Speaker 4: And this is a song where if you make it

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Speaker 4: even slightly different, it's not right. And that that's sonically right.

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Speaker 4: So then it's also the other thing is she always

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Speaker 4: was self aware. It's a new kind of self awareness

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Speaker 4: and a new level of irony and a new level

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Speaker 4: of sort of like postmodern self reflexifity where she's taking

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Speaker 4: in the media perception of her and twisting it and

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Speaker 4: reacting to it and making art out of it. Is

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Speaker 4: kind of a it's it's very pre reputation. In that way,

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Speaker 4: it anticipates what she do with the reputation, and you know,

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Speaker 4: of course she does it unshake it off as well,

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Speaker 4: but this is kind of a more sophisticated way of

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Speaker 4: doing it.

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Speaker 3: And you know, it's another thing where you could just

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Speaker 3: her mind.

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Speaker 4: You can see a mind at work and everything in

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Speaker 4: the sonics of it and in the you know, and

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Speaker 4: like I said, in the lyrics, in the way that

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Speaker 4: she's exaggerating this persona. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 4: people didn't quite or at least some people didn't quite

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Speaker 4: get what she was doing there. They took it way

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Speaker 4: too literally, and they didn't understand that she's she's playing

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Speaker 4: a character. She's mocking the character, she's exaggerating the character.

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Speaker 4: The character is a version of her. She's pretending like

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Speaker 4: she is the version of her from the tabloids.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, and it's.

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Speaker 4: Just so much going on there. It's just you know,

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Speaker 4: it's a brilliant song, and it's one of the songs

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Speaker 4: where it's as much as you expected from the artist. Again,

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Speaker 4: it kind of wipes the table and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I have to expect much more. It's just a you know,

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Speaker 4: an amazing, ridiculously great song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it always shocks me the people who thought that

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Speaker 1: it was genuinely her like being very serious about it

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Speaker 1: and being like, yes, I'm crazy. Like it's like it's

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Speaker 1: very clearly like a funny, satirical song, and it's so

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Speaker 1: wild to me that so many people didn't immediately read

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Speaker 1: it as like this is very funny, very wacky to

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Speaker 1: me that people took that too seriously.

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Speaker 2: Her careers is that people fail to notice her sense

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Speaker 2: of humor and when it's clobbering you over the head,

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Speaker 2: it's a really funny. But with this song especially, it's like,

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Speaker 2: how exactly do you watch the video of your ass off?

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Speaker 2: It's like, absolutely brilliant. I always it's funny. The video

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Speaker 2: I always associate with when your.

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Speaker 3: Pinned tweet was like that still from the.

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Speaker 2: Video where she's got the knife and she's slashing through

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Speaker 2: the curtains. Loved her eyes. I love that you found

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Speaker 2: that frame as like the like absolute peak of that video. Esthetic. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's really one of the greatest videos of all time.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely her greatest video. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I've had a mixed relationship with her videos

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Speaker 1: over the years, but that video definitely her best in

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Speaker 1: my opinion, I think number one video for her because

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Speaker 1: she just is having a lot of fun. Obviously lyrically,

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Speaker 1: we just talked about like there's so much humor that

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Speaker 1: she's finding in it. I mean, it's her funniest song,

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Speaker 1: and it's like a song where she's able to really

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Speaker 1: let loose and try something new for herself and have

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Speaker 1: sort of like real anger towards the way that she's

401
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Speaker 1: viewed and the kind of the scrutiny that her dating

402
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Speaker 1: life has faced, as you know, that is frankly unfair.

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Speaker 3: The music, I mean, you could argue that the music

404
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Speaker 3: is sort of more youthful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and then you know that her previous you know,

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Speaker 4: on read she had all she had songs that kind

407
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Speaker 4: of sound like you too, Like you know, it's like

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Speaker 4: it's sort of like I was so much older.

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Speaker 3: Than kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, like the themes are more adult, but the

411
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Speaker 4: music is very light and youthful by the way that

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Speaker 4: the other stuff wasn't always.

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Speaker 1: It's such an inverse of like what a lot of

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Speaker 1: others exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all proven formulas for how you graduate from being

416
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Speaker 2: a teenaged pop star to a full fledged adult is

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Speaker 2: you go away from the bouncy pop stuff and you

418
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Speaker 2: start doing you know, serious stuff. Towards Michael going into

419
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Speaker 2: his double era, it's like, I'm going to do a

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Speaker 2: video where it's just me and an acoustic guitar, because

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Speaker 2: that's how you prove your serious artist. We can see

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Speaker 2: that pattern, you know, that's traditionally how artists they start

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Speaker 2: out doing dancy pop stuff as teens, and then they

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Speaker 2: prove their adults by let's say, dressing in flannel and

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Speaker 2: growing a beard and putting out an album literally called

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Speaker 2: Man of the Woods. But like that's traditionally the trajectory, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like marking your evolution as an artist. And it says

428
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Speaker 2: so much about her confidence but also about her extremely

429
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Speaker 2: widescreen sense of pop history that she knew all the

430
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Speaker 2: tricks of how this has been done in the past,

431
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Speaker 2: and she was going to do it the opposite way

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Speaker 2: that she had this blockbuster formula with you know that

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Speaker 2: was like very much focused around her acoustic guitar, and

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Speaker 2: that she was going to cross over to dance pop

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Speaker 2: from the more adult pop style. That's not how you

436
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Speaker 2: do it. It seemed like absolute commercial self sabotage at

437
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 2: the time. It's weird how this being so successful in

438
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 2: retrospect nineteen eighty nine, but also the song blank Space.

439
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 2: In retrospect it looks like a total non brainer move,

440
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 2: where at the time it seemed like the absolute craziest

441
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:13,400
Speaker 2: thing she could do.

442
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 4: When Jewel did it with three oh four, it was

443
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 4: not as much of a success, you know, and then

444
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 4: and that was it was the exactly good.

445
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 3: It was the it was the exact move. I can't

446
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 3: a perfect example.

447
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 2: Also, that should have been huge.

448
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 3: It had some songs I really liked on it. I

449
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 3: gave it.

450
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 2: Its always a band.

451
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it just shows that people had tried

452
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 4: it and it didn't work.

453
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 1: I mean, again, great album I would love. I know

454
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 1: she's doing she's doing the Exilent Guy Bill tour, but

455
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 1: where's the anniversary tour for lis Fair self titled?

456
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 4: But right that the two artists who come to mind,

457
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 4: who tried it, at least commercially, did not succeed, So,

458
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 4: you know, and.

459
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,719
Speaker 3: I also were so reviled for us.

460
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: There was so much anger towards both those artists for

461
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: moving away from what was seen as much more kind

462
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: of authentic music, kind of more authentic ways of doing

463
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 1: their songwriting. I mean for Taylor to move into this

464
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: mode to make a pop album as her kind of

465
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: adult shifting album, but also to work with someone like

466
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 1: Max Martin, who's, you know, such a big name in

467
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 1: pop music, to kind of have that not only be

468
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: someone who's kind of almost like a teacher, like her

469
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 1: kind of own sort of makeshift college lessons of songwriting,

470
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 1: where she has talked about kind of working with him

471
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: on Red as a way to sort of learn a

472
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: new way of writing and to learn more about being

473
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: a pop songwriter, and then to bring him into that,

474
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: and to bring also someone who was not known for

475
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 1: working on pop music before, Jack Antonov, who had was

476
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 1: this was his first big album as a songwriter and

477
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: producer outside of Fun that he was working with someone

478
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 1: else and kind of behind the scenes. But I mean

479
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: to even have that balance of like someone like Jack

480
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: who's a big part of the album and hadn't done

481
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: this before, and.

482
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: With Max Martin, he's got like some brilliant production yes

483
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 2: on nineteen eighty nine, and then he's got a there's

484
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,959
Speaker 2: where it's like, oh, he's still learning how to do this.

485
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 4: It's really interesting the way that Taylor was allowed to

486
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 4: sort of quiet quit country.

487
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: It's really interesting. It's sort of uh.

488
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 4: I actually do remember asking her about that during I

489
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 4: guess read and and she was just sort of like

490
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 4: like more or less she was like, I'll be fun

491
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 4: like like she just was like she had absolutely no

492
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 4: concern about it. What you know as to whether you know,

493
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 4: country fans will be mad about it at her.

494
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 3: Or or anything. She was like, she's like not worried

495
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 3: about it. And she was totally right. It never really

496
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 3: became a thing. Yeah, Nashville never got really mad at her.

497
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 3: Nothing ever really happened.

498
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 4: It just sort of it's almost like she she she

499
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 4: hypnotized people into forgetting that the country thing had ever

500
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 4: been a thing, and it's just slowly it's like.

501
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 3: Oh wait, weren't you a country or just some points

502
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 3: he's like, don't worry about it, you know.

503
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: It was like, yeah, I think it was a mixture

504
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 1: of two. Like I mean, even with like love Story,

505
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: she was already becoming such like a pop artist, yeah,

506
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: and like it was a very gradual yeah, and like

507
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, she had her first number one hit

508
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: with we Are Never Getting Back Together and that kind

509
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: of being it. But I also do think blank Space

510
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 1: is such a country song and it's writing like that's

511
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: the hook is like very Miranda Lambert, and it feels

512
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: very like revenge country vibe to it, and I think,

513
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel that way about a lot of

514
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, where I feel like a lot of

515
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: the lyrics, not every song, but I feel like songs

516
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: like style and blank Space and like all you had

517
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: to do is stay is like they feel very country

518
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: lyrically in terms of that, because she's always been so

519
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: good at bridging what makes country songs so catchy and

520
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: so fun and so sing alongable with a really excellent

521
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: earwormy hook. Because I remember my the first time I

522
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: heard the song was because I went to a I

523
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: was writing about the videos. Is one of my very

524
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: first like Rolling Stone articles was to write about the videos.

525
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 1: I had to go to like a secret room to

526
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: hear about the app that they were doing, the interactive

527
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: app that they were getting launched with blank Space so

528
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: so twenty fourteen, and that there was an interactive app

529
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: that they that they were doing with it, and I

530
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: remember just being so like genuinely blown away by how

531
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: different it was, I mean, just in terms of the

532
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: combination of the visuals and what she was singing, because

533
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: I think that now she sort of she's done this

534
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: sort of playfulness repeatedly in her music in her videos,

535
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: but I mean, just to kind of fully see that

536
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: on such a level from her from blank Space, like

537
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: shake it Off almost got there, but like it was

538
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: a little like that video was a little like disjointed

539
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: in how it kind of tried to get there, and

540
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: Blank Space her kind of going all the way through,

541
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: like the running mascara and like the bloodcake and like

542
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: all this stuff combined with those lyrics like you know,

543
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: I'm a nightmare dressed as a day dream and the

544
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 1: long list of X lovers and all that stuff. Like,

545
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: I mean, just the fact that it's so completely over

546
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: the top was such a major moment.

547
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 3: I love that, Yeah, I love it.

548
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 2: She does it in Aerostour, Yeah, her and the dancers

549
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 2: with their golf clubs like beating up the car. I

550
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: was wow, Like it's very much still celebrating that spirit.

551
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

552
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: And there was a resurgence over the summer with the

553
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: song too. I mean, all the I mean every song

554
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: that was an Aerostor had like a chart moment. But

555
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: of course, like this crack top fifty where people we

556
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: were getting back into blank space again.

557
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: It's kind of funny. Also, it's a song where every

558
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: time I hear it anyway, I'm shocked at how short

559
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 2: it is. Yeah, because there's so many brilliant details packed

560
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: into it, and it's like wow, like classic Max Martin

561
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: trick for sure, but like getting them in so so

562
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: many of those in such a short period of time.

563
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a lot has changed in how people

564
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: even are listening to her music. We have the re

565
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: records out now, and we have you know, even more

566
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: albums and the tour and all that. I feel like

567
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,479
Speaker 1: we could talk about this for much longer we have before.

568
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 1: But I appreciate, appreciate you Brian for coming by and

569
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: chatting today.

570
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five

571
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 2: hundred Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by

572
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia. Written and hosted by me, Rob

573
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: Sheffield and Britney Spanos and with our genius guest today,

574
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 2: mister Brian HyET. Executive produced by Jason alex Dale and

575
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: Christian Horde and produced by Jesse Cannon with music supervision

576
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 2: by Eric Seiler. Thanks