WEBVTT - CLASSIC: The Afghanistan Papers 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:04.559 Welcome to this evening's classic episode. Guys, do you remember Afghanistan? 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:06.920 Yeah? Yeah, how could I forget? It was a golden 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.320 time in Afghanistan that we all spent together. 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:15.240 The Breaker of Empires. The US invaded Afghanistan on October seventh, 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:20.360 two thousand and one, and back in twenty twenty, weirdly enough, 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:25.760 on New Year's Day, we started looking into this, into 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:27.720 this excellent work by the Washington Post. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.800 Oh yeah, back in twenty nineteen, Craig Whitlock of The 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:37.279 Washington Post published at War with the Truth and the 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:40.919 world said, uh what. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:44.200 That was a really good impression of the world. 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:46.200 Matt, Yeah, what do you say? 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.200 We jump right into this classic episode. 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:54.080 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.480 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:00.520 learn this stuff. They don't go on you to know. 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.119 A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.360 Hello, Welcome back to the show. I'm not wearing a hat. 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:18.080 You're wearing pants, though. 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:19.880 I am wearing pants. My name is Matt, my name 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:20.360 is Noah. 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.679 They call me Ben. We are joined, as always with 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.440 our super producer Paul Mission Control Deck. In most importantly, 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.640 you are you, you are here, and that makes this 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:34.240 stuff they don't want you to know. This is a 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:38.720 wartime episode. As we record today's episode, the United States 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.360 of America is still in the middle of the longest 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.120 war in the country's history. That means there are literally 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:50.440 people listening to the show today who were not alive 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:55.200 when this war began. Think about that. The United States 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.760 invaded Afghanistan on October seventh, two thousand and one, and 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.440 we are still there as we speak. Why how much 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.400 did our leaders know and when did they know it? 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.240 To answer that, oddly enough, even though this country has 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:14.200 been at war in this other country for the better 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:19.079 part of two decades, many people, many voters, aren't one 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:24.720 hundred percent sure what Afghanistan is, where it is, and 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:26.080 why it's such a big deal. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.919 And it's also now the first time we've been engaged there. 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:34.160 No, no, no, no, no, this has an interesting name. 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.880 First things first, here are the facts. Afghanistan is located 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:43.680 in what is commonly called Eurasia, right the vast stretch 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:49.000 of land between Asia and the continent we call Europe. 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:55.040 It's landlocked, It's bordered by some greatest hits countries. In 0:02:55.080 --> 0:03:00.880 the rogues gallery of the United States historically Pakistan, Iran, Tajikistan, Zbekistan, 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:05.119 and China. Its capital is a place called Kabul. Outside 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:11.560 of several cities, the country is extraordinarily rural. We're talking 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.640 places that are simply physically hard to access in the 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:20.800 mountains or in the rugged wilderness. The country itself was 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:25.480 not officially formed until seventeen oh nine, but as you 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.920 alluded to, Matt, it has a history, a long and 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:33.160 bloody history of being a battleground. In fact, Afghanistan is 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.920 sometimes called the Graveyard of Empires due to just the 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:41.920 sheer number of militaries that tried and failed to control it. 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.280 And it's an interesting thing there because and just when 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.720 we're talking about it's the battleground, right the place where 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.960 the wars are fought or the battles are fought, and 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.680 generally controlling the area is kind of the goal. But 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:57.880 a lot of times, and this is what we're going 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.880 to kind of outline here, is that it's the the land, 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:05.920 the place where two different warring powers end up where 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.600 they just kind of go right. So it's not as 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:12.320 though Afghanistan itself is rising up to you know, fight 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.560 A lot of the battles. It's generally it's where proxy 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.159 wars happen. It's where it's interesting. We're gonna continue on 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.159 with this throughout the show. So let's just keep going 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.599 down into the history of Afghanistan. 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.720 Okay, let's do a little ancient history, shall we, Yes, okay, So, 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.360 experts believe that early humans were living in Afghanistan as 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.360 long as fifty thousand years ago because it was rich 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:38.240 soil for farming. There were communities of farmers in Afghanistan 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.000 that were some of the very earliest farmers in the 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.200 entire world, and for a time the area was known 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.760 as Ariyana, or the land of Arians. This is because 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:51.960 multiple waves of people from Central Asia migrated to the region, 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.400 and many of these settlers were in fact Arians. They 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.719 were speakers of the parent language of Indo European languages. 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.040 Arians also, so migrated to Persia and India in those 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:04.160 prehistoric times. 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.960 And then let's jump to the sixth century when the 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:12.160 Persian Empire of the Akimenid dynasty controlled Ariana. And good 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.040 luck saying, Achimenid, it's really fun and to look at 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.280 and write. In about three hundred and thirty BC, the 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:22.200 little guy you might remember named Alexander the Great, defeated 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.880 the last ruler of the Akimenid dynasty there, and he 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.279 made his way to the eastern borders of the place 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.880 that was called Ariana. Now after this guy, old Great 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:37.839 Alexander himself died in three hundred and twenty three BCE. 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.880 In his early thirties, feeling that he was a failure 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:41.360 by the. 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.279 Way, Yeah, no, that Alexander, he sure was great, wasn't he. 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.120 I mean he was, Uh, he's a guy. 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:48.880 Who's a guy. 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:50.040 He did great things. 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.560 He did some huge stuff. Whether it was great or 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.400 terrible is depending on which side of the battles you 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:57.599 were on. 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:59.320 I said, it had some large scale stuff. 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.520 Let's leave it. Okay, that's yes, there we go. So 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.320 he died three hundred and twenty three BCE. All these 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.479 other kingdoms that were out there, let's name them off here, 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:17.359 the Seleucids, maybe Seleucids Seleucids, the Bactria, and the Indian 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.400 Mayuran Empire, they all were fighting to attempt in an 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.440 attempt to control this territory that was known at the 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:25.200 time as Ariana. 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.760 So understandably, there were a lot of folks jockeying for 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:33.040 position and a lot of kind of power grab situations. 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:36.800 In the vacuum. Yes, the history of afghanistun involves a 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.520 ton of handoffs and power grabs with a lot of 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.039 names that might be unfamiliar to you know, unless you 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:48.320 have specifically studied this history. So strap in, we're just 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.040 going to do some highlights. A lot of these empires 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:56.000 are no longer around and the names will sound unfamiliar. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:02.440 In the seventh century AD, or whichever way you want 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.440 to go with that, Arab armies carried this brand new 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:11.360 religion of Islam to Afghanistan, and the western provinces of 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.360 Harat and Sastan came under the rule of these Arab forces. 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:20.920 But the people of these provinces revolted. They returned to 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:25.600 their old, pre existing beliefs as soon as these military 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.280 forces were not you know, literally using violence to make 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:34.680 them pretend to practice Islam. In the tenth century, Muslim 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.560 rulers called Samanids from Bukara and what's now is Pakistan 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:44.320 extended their influence into the Afghan area. And this kind 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.240 of when we see extending influence, it means that there 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.840 was a soft hegemony, you know, expanding there. People started 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:57.080 to use the currency of those rulers, they started to 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:04.360 speak similar languages they acquire their culture. Sos Samanid established 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:09.080 a dynasty in Gazhni called the Ghaznavids. And again matt 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.360 prescient with that pronunciation, we do not speak these languages. 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:17.320 The greatest of the Ghaznavids was a king named Mahmoud 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.920 who ruled from nine ninety eight to ten thirty. He 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.520 is the one most responsible for establishing the solid foundation 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.840 of Islam throughout the area of modern day Afghanistan. He 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.400 led a lot of military expeditions into India. Even back 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:39.880 then people started thinking of of Afghanistan to as the 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.240 gateway to these kingdoms of India. That state falls in 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.880 the middle of the twelfth century to the Gurud Kingdom 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.200 which arose in gur that's a west central region of 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.839 present day Afghanistan. Those guys get kicked out early in 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:58.240 the thirteenth century by another Central Asian dynasty. And these 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.600 folks are all swept away around twelve twenty CE by 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:02.440 Jengas Khan. 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.520 Oh, yeah, that Genghis Khan. Guy that's actually called Jengis Khan. 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:12.559 I like to call him Jangi Janki, k j Janki sure. 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:14.800 Reminds me of that tower game Djenga. 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:15.959 Oh yeah. 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.959 And so we we include some of this ancient history 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.880 because it's important to know that. Already it's twelve twenty 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.240 Already two of the greatest conquerors in the world have 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.000 come through this place, and now a third one appears. 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.800 Near the end of the fourteenth century, the Central Asian 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:41.040 military leader timor Lang or the Lame Timur, also known 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:45.760 as tamer Lane in the West, conquered Afghanistan. Then he 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.000 immediately moved on to India. And when he moved on, 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:54.480 his children and his descendants couldn't hold the empire together. 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:59.120 They couldn't rule everything. Their grandfather, their patriarch, took over, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.880 but they were able to keep a hold on Afghanistan 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.400 roughly for a little while. And now we get to 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:13.720 where it eventually becomes an independent nation, as we said, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:18.120 you know, in seventeen hundreds, becomes independent. But there's a 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.280 story behind that too. There's even more switching off. People 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.520 are trying to control this. They're dying left and right. 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.120 And we're going to talk about let's say a strategy. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.240 You're something that's going to ripple across time here that 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:34.240 occurs in the eighteenth century, the king of Persia around 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.840 that time, a guy named the Deer Shaw. He was 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:41.559 employing this tribe of Pashtuns, an Abdhali tribe of Pashtuns, 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.400 and he was using them in his wars in India. 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:50.120 So he's got a contingency of other fighters. I wouldn't 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.560 call them mercenaries, but they're fighters for under another flag, 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:58.040 essentially fighting under his flag. Right. And Ahmad Shaw, this 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:02.240 Abdhali chief who'd gained this high post within the army there, 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.720 he established himself after Nadir Shah's assassination, that the guy 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.079 we're talking about, the King of Persia, after he was 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:13.800 assassinated in seventeen forty seven. So Ahmad Shaw is, you know, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.200 looking to move up a little bit, and thankfully this 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:21.360 assembly of tribal chiefs proclaim him the new Shaw. And 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.520 then the Afghans extend their rule as far east as 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.520 Kashmir and Delhi and then north to the Amu Daria 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.640 and west into northern Persia. So they really just begin 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.400 expanding there under the rule of Ahmad Shah. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:42.400 Yeah, and he retires from the throne in seventeen seventy two. 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.199 He's one of the few people with the distinction of retiring. 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.800 He dies in Kandahar. He has a son, Timor Shah, 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:55.480 who assumes control the Afghan Empire survives mostly intact through 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:56.960 the next twenty years. 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:01.559 Now think about that time. Yeah, seventeen seventy two. America 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.120 is forming right right in this time period. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:09.840 Here, increasingly irritated colonists half a world away are dreaming 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.120 of revolution and saying, hey, one day there will be 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:18.840 a popular Broadway play about us. And you may be wondering, rightly, so, 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:20.679 when does all this have to do with me? When 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:25.640 does all this obscure Eurasian history have to do with me? 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.640 When does my team enter the game? A lot of 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.840 people in the West are wondering, Well, there is an 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:38.679 entire era of history involved, heavily involving Afghanistan that concerns 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:42.319 just this. It's called The Great Game. We did an 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.640 episode on this earlier, longtime listeners may recall. But let's like, 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:48.319 what's the quick and dirty way. 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:54.120 The Great Game is world dominance? Really, that's what it is. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.760 It's a bunch of extremely powerful countries and people deciding, Hey, 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.760 I want to maybe be the ruler of all this. 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.880 Let's see what we can do, but there are all 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.480 these other people trying to do the same thing, so 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.800 we have to play these mind games and diplomatic games 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.040 and resource control games. Yeah. 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.000 So for most of the nineteenth century, eighteen thirty to 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.240 eighteen ninety five to be precise, the British and Russian 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.959 Empires were vying for control of Central and South Asia, 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.319 including the country of Afghanistan. 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:30.240 This period was. 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.520 Known, as you mentioned Matt, as the Great Game, where 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:37.080 both empires were trying to protect and secure their own 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:41.319 territories they already held and also expanding outward into others. 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.960 Britain was a huge player in this game, and that 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.920 they were very concerned that Russia might take control over India, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.319 which was the crown jewel of the British Empire, despite 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.439 the fact that Russia this wasn't really something that they 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.800 had designs on. But you know, Britain that you got 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:00.120 to protect what she got, and they were to be 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:05.720 a little paranoid. Afghanistan became once again, as you mentioned matt, 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.400 a very fertile battleground. 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.040 Right you can see you can see some excellent fiction 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.679 based on this period of time. A work by Ridard 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.800 Kipling intensely problematic author, but I would I would say 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.480 a talented poet. He wrote a novel called Kim, which 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.160 is about a child becoming embroiled in what they later 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:30.440 learn is the Great Game. 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:31.320 Rudyerd. 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.160 Kipling, of course would be uh. I would be remiss 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:38.640 not to mention this is the person is the person 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.320 most responsible for the phrase white man's burden. So he's 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:46.520 not a good dude. But that was a well written book. 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.440 A series of conflicts transpire in real life, not just 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.880 in the book, and these are these are breaking out 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.080 to wars, but they don't really turn into world wars 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:01.040 at this point. One of these conflicts, the Second Anglo 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.920 Afghan War, which was from eighteen thirty eight to forty two, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.400 ended in a treaty that gave Britain control of Afghanistan's 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.320 foreign affairs, so it turned into a vassal or a 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:18.920 puppet state until nineteen nineteen, when Amanala Khan declared independence 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:24.000 from British influence. He tried to introduce some social norms, 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:31.600 such as abolishing the practice of product which is the 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.680 idea that women should not be allowed to be seen 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.880 or interact in public. So he was a more forward 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.119 facing leader in some social regards. 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:44.160 He was trying to do that. 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:46.520 He was trying to he ended up fleeing the country 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.520 in nineteen twenty nine. People did not really people were 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:55.440 not receptive to this change. Next, Zahir Shah becomes king 0:15:55.800 --> 0:16:01.000 and for the following four years, Afghanistan is a monarchy. 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:05.160 In nineteen fifty three, a guy named General Mohammad Daoud 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:10.080 became prime minister. He turned to the Soviets, to the USSR, 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.200 and he said, help me out with the economy. Helped 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.560 me out with military assistances. Also, I want to introduce 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:20.320 some social reforms, including the abolition of pradah. He was 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.320 forced to resign in nineteen sixty three. It's a ten 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.080 year rule there. But in nineteen seventy three he regained 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.560 power in a coup and he said, okay, now we're 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:35.040 a republic, and he said, you know what, I get 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.720 the trend of history here, So I'm going to try 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.360 to play these world powers against one another. It doesn't 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.080 work the way he wanted it to, because just a 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.200 few years later, in nineteen seventy eight, he is murdered 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.720 or assassinated in a pro Soviet coup. There's a new 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.320 governing faction, the new kids on the block in this situation, 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.280 and the People's Democratic Party they come to power, but 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.480 they have a lot of infighting in their own, jockeying 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.280 for position in the hierarchy. And then of course they 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.600 are eternally battling the Mujadin groups that are backed by 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:12.240 Uncle Sam. That was at one time seen as controversial. 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:17.679 That is clearly a proven fact. And let's pause for 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.720 word from our sponsor, and then we'll get to the 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:32.360 modern history. So the Soviet era, Paul, can we get 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:36.640 some kind of you know, like really authoritarian sounding big 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.520 but yeah, that kind of music. There we go. Soviet era. 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:47.399 Yes, So the USSR, it's in Afghanistan in nineteen seventy nine, 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.200 and it really is trying to shore up this newly 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.000 established regime. Right that we talked about, the People's Democratic 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.440 Party that's running things over there, and those guys are 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.960 by the way in the capital Kabul, and in short order, 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:05.119 nearly one hundred thousand Soviet soldiers took control of a 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.560 lot of the major areas, the cities, the highways, the ways, 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:13.399 things are being transported by all means. And here's the 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:18.719 thing people didn't really take to that there was rebellion. 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.000 It came quickly. It was all over the place. The 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:27.000 Soviets were dealing harshly with the Mujahadeen rebels and the people, 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:31.440 you know, the families, the small groups that were supporting them. 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.879 They were just taking out entire villages. Again, it like 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.200 sounds so familiar with the course of our history, with 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.040 the things we've talked about. They're trying to deny any 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.280 place where or that would be considered a safe haven 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.000 for enemy soldiers to be hanging out and you know, regrouping. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.280 And while this is happening, there are outside foreign supporters 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.639 who were propping up all of these diverse groups of 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.560 rebels that are fighting back against the Soviet Union. 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.240 Playing the great game once again. 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.720 Exactly that that whole the proxy the proxy battle thing 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.560 is in full effect here. And you know, you've got 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:13.480 rebels pouring from Iran, Pakistan, China. The US even has 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:17.160 some people over their training folks and having fighters over there. 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.920 And there's this brutal nine year conflict that just goes 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.600 on and on and on, and an estimated one million 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:29.600 civilians are killed in this conflict Afghanistan civilians as well 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:34.000 as others, and there are also ninety thousand Mujahideen fighters, 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:40.600 eighteen thousand Afghan troops, and fourteen five hundred Soviet soldiers, 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.760 all of them who are killed in this battle, these 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:45.400 battles in this conflict. 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:50.640 And the US support varied in many different ways over 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:52.879 the course of this conflict. This we do have to 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:58.960 remember this is Cold War era, right. So, so originally 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.360 they had some suits and some agents from the company. 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.920 The company right right right, and it starts with a C. 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.040 It does, this company, it does. 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:14.879 And by nineteen eighty six they were becoming more they 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.960 were being less subtle, Uncle Sam was. They started supplying 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.520 Stinger missiles to the mosh Din, which were a game 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.119 changer because these Stinger missiles allowed people on the ground 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:31.760 to shoot down Soviet helicopter gunships. In nineteen eighty eight, 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:38.400 four countries, Afghanistan, the USSR, Pakistan, the US signed peace accords, 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:42.240 and the Soviet Union says, okay, we'll start pulling out troops. 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.800 The last of the troops leave the next year in 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:50.119 nineteen eighty nine, and civil war consumes the country, which 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:52.400 should not have surprised anyone. 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.640 Let's talk really quickly about some of the landscape there 0:20:55.720 --> 0:21:00.679 and the mountains, the mountain ranges, the mountains areas, the 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:05.600 very hilly, sometimes very stark areas where if you know, 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.879 as the Mujahadeen, if you're given something like a stinger missile, 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.600 when you're just troops on the ground, it's very difficult 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:16.080 to battle against something like these Soviet gunships, the helicopters 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.800 that can roll through. They can just travel across these 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.639 landscapes to wherever they need to be in They're heavily armed. 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:25.240 But you know, if you're on the ground as just 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.160 a single person or even a battalion, small battalion anywhere 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:33.399 from one hundred to ten people, fighting back against a 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.800 gunship is very, very difficult. But if you're given a 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:40.080 stinger missile and you can hide out somewhere within you 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.600 know that terrain, you can easily have an upper hand there. 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.600 And again these are ripples throughout time of things that 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:50.720 we are going to see. We're an explosive in the 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:55.480 hands of somebody that understands the area, that has lived there. 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.000 You only need a few people to gain the upper 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.120 hand on large military forces. 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:02.720 It's one of those things where you see it. I mean, 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.160 it's even in like SNL sketches from the time, and 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:07.600 going back and watching a lot of Will Ferrell sketches 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:09.280 from those days, and there's the one where he's the 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:10.119 old prospector. 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:11.520 You know, oh yeah, you've seeing this. 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.560 It's great, but it's well, Chris Catan is playing the 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.080 sergen or whatever, and he keeps making the joke that 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.159 it's an unconventionable, unconventional war, so he got to use 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:22.440 unconventional methods, which in this sketch is having an old 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.880 prospector to lead them through the terrain. But it's true, 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:27.800 that's what they're talking about. That's the thing you heard 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:30.720 thrown around constantly in the news was what an inconventional 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.480 war was and required unconventional tactics. 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.280 Yeah, and in this case, an old prospector, I forget 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:39.480 the premise with an old prospector who is like a 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:42.800 cousin of somebody who was in command of the military 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:44.919 isn't going to do you much good. You need somebody 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.200 who has lived there and knows the history and the terrain. Yeah. 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:52.080 And also, for the record, the old Will Ferrell sketches 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.080 in general, hold up, oh yes, my god, not saying 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.760 that because he's technically a coworker of ours, just saying 0:22:57.760 --> 0:22:58.960 it because they do hold. 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:02.880 Up shoes, sentiment, and gravy. 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.879 So who comes out ahead in this next iteration of 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.600 the power vacuum that would be a group known as 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:15.680 the Taliban. They seize control of Kabul. By nineteen ninety seven, 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.959 they have they have a solid grip on about two 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:21.640 thirds of the country, and they're starting to be recognized 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:25.360 in the international sphere. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, for instance, 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:32.320 both recognize the government. Until that is the US enters 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.680 the Great Game as a full on combatant. And it's 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:44.080 different because before proxy wars, right, let's call these people rebels. Yeah, yeah, 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:47.240 And so fast forward, as we said at the top, 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:51.000 in October of two thousand and one, US led bombing 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:56.000 of Afghanistan begins. And this is right after the attacks 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.240 on September eleventh, two thousand and one on the US 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:05.560 soil anti Taliban Northern Alliance Forces Intricrable, pretty much right 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:09.360 after and this marks the official beginning of what has 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:12.720 become the longest war in US history. Across the next 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:19.400 eighteen years, multiple presidents, three different administrations from both sides 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:24.920 of the US political divide would continually escalate the conflict. 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.360 They would send more troops. They would propose what they 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.800 called surgis. They would vow we were making progress in 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:34.880 a war that we knew we could win. Today's question, 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:39.400 what if they were lying? Here's where it gets crazy. 0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:45.479 So behind the scenes, yeah, everyone knew, All of the 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:49.480 decision makers knew this was a disaster. And Matt, you 0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:52.919 recently had a conversation that touched on some of this. 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:56.800 Is that right? Yes, quite a bit. And I spoke 0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:59.360 with the gentleman named Steve Hooper that I very much 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:01.239 want to have on the show. We want to have 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:06.160 on this show. I forget his exact titles within the FBI, 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:10.840 but he was a high level person. I hope he 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:14.520 doesn't mind me saying his name. He has a podcast 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:17.680 on the iHeart network that he talks about some of 0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:20.199 this stuff, so I think it should be okay. But 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:22.639