WEBVTT - The Life of Dr. Claire Weekes 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.360 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:18.520 Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:23.520 am your host Jen Kirkman. Today my guest is journalist 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:28.360 and author Judith Horpe. But even though Judith herself has 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:32.239 a fascinating life and career, Judith and I are going 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:36.720 to be talking about Dr Claire Weeks because Judith wrote 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.600 the definitive biography of Doctor Claire Weeks. It's called The 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:45.320 Woman who Cracked the Anxiety Code. The Extraordinary Life of 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:51.160 Doctor Claire Weeks. It came out in nineteen So where 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:53.400 do I even begin? So let's begin with my guest 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.320 to Judith Harsh's a journalist and author. She worked for 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.840 the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and at the Australian Financial Review, 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:05.560 where she covered politics, business and broader social issues before 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:10.080 being appointed features editor and finally Deputy editor of the newspaper, 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.120 a position she held for twenty years. She is again 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.279 the author of the aforementioned book about Dr Claire Weeks, 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:20.600 and Judith now lives in Sydney, Australia. Dr Claire Weeks 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.080 is from Australia as well, and the story of how 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:28.480 I came to read this book and my connection with 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:35.120 Australia and how that just wonderful continent and is just 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.959 all tied up in my tale of fear flying and 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:46.000 anxiety recovery. But I tell that story to Judith on 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:51.920 the podcast, so you'll hear that. But what I'm here 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.840 to say is that Dr Claire Weeks, if you get 0:01:55.920 --> 0:02:00.760 no other book about panic attacks or anxiety, then get 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.760 Dr Claire Weeks's books, because she is the o G. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:09.720 She is the original person to ever help people who 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.560 were having panic attacks because she had them herself. And 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.200 this is what's extraordinary about her story. And you'll hear 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.440 Judith and I talk about it. But just to bring 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.800 you up to speed, Dr Claire Weeks was born in 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:25.080 nineteen o three. She was a general practitioner in Australia, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.840 but she went to college and was very genius in 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:33.600 the studies of biology and evolution. She was granted so 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.680 many fellowships where she studied all over the world, and 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:41.280 she studied with really renowned people, and she basically was 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.520 studying lizards and and I know you're going to think 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:46.200 I'm about to say Lozard brain, but it's nothing to 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:53.080 do with that, she was studying why, um, some creatures 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:55.799 lay their eggs in water, why some lay their eggs 0:02:55.800 --> 0:03:00.079 on land, And so what she was studying is how 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:06.720 have these creatures evolved. And one of the things that 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:12.640 she discovered and proved is that environment has a lot 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:18.760 to do with the evolution of something, and so later 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:23.280 she would use that theory about you know your own 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.640 personal environment, you're living environment at home, your work environment, 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:32.399 you're social environments where you you know where you actually 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:37.360 live in the world informs if you have panic and 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.000 anxiety and informs how well you're able to deal with 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:44.600 it or not. Yes, genetics play a component, but she 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.280 didn't believe that was the entire story, and she's completely right. 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.360 So basically she just sort of followed her heart and 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:57.880 went from being this biologist and then finding the work 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.600 not that interesting, and then she thought she would be 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.320 a singer and help people with their breath work because 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.240 she thought singing was science. And then she became a 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.440 travel writer, which the timing of it was terrible because 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.480 she was encouraging people to take trips to Europe and 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:16.080 then Hitler invade in Poland and you know how that went. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.400 And so she decided to go back to school again 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.640 and study being a general practitioner, and when she had 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:28.240 her own practice, she began noticing that people weren't actually ill, 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.479 that they were suffering from nervous system disorders which was 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.440 causing them to have anxiety or panic. And that's what 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.200 I love about her. She wasn't saying, oh, it's all 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.600 on your head, but she was saying, your nervous system 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.040 is out of whack. And you know, there wasn't the 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.720 word agorophobia back then. Eventually that word was coined and 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:48.680 she used it in the title of one of her books. 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.560 But she was basically helping people who were agoraphobic, people 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.560 who had had a panic attack maybe in a store 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:56.680 or in a certain you in a car, and then 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:01.480 they avoided. Right, that's most people's in instinct to not 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.000 panic or feel anxiety is ill. Just avoid the place 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.040 I was when I felt it last, even though you 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.600 know that it's not the car that gave you anxiety, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.200 but that you had anxiety in the car. So maybe 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:13.880 if you don't go near your cars anymore, that will 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:15.920 help and you eventually your life gets smaller and smaller. 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.760 And what Dr Claar Weeks did that was brilliant that 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.960 people have improved upon it, and she gets very little 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.039 to no credit for it. Is we all know about 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:27.920 fight or flight. Yes, animals do this too, and it's 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.400 from our ancestry and we used to be running around 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:34.479 foraging for our food blah blah blah. So while it's 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:38.960 perfectly normal when faced with something that could eat us 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.120 or something that could kill us, you know, whether it's 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.520 a soldier with a gun or a plane that's crashing, 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:49.840 or you know our ancestors um I had to deal with, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.800 you know, wild animals. It's it's perfectly normal and it's 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.040 what we're supposed to do to fight or freeze, are 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.960 going to flight in danger. But what Dr Claire Weeks 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:05.680 was trying to teach people is that, but that's not 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.640 usually what causes us to panic because panic is different 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:14.680 than fear. Panic almost evolves what she called the second fear. So, 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.600 first fear is this thing that stimulates you to go 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.159 into fight, flight or freeze. The second fear are your 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.760 thoughts about how your body now feels, your thoughts about 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.680 the anxious sensations that you're feeling. And now you've worked 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:29.440 yourself up and you think you're having a heart attack, 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:31.880 and the first thing that was scaring you that's not 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.920 even a thought anymore. But it all happens so quickly 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.599 that it's hard to understand when it's happening that you 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:45.320 have basically almost made a choice to have the second fear. Now, Obviously, 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:47.840 in a case of a panic attack, you don't have 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:49.520 to have a soldier pointing a gun at or you 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.279 don't have to be in a plane that's crashing. You 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:52.839 can just be sitting at your desk at work. You 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:54.640 can be laying in bed at night. You can have 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:56.919 a panic attack that puts you into fight or flight, 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:01.960 and again, that is just your nerve system doing its thing. 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:04.400 Who knows why it's doing it right, It could be 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.920 a million reasons, going back to childhood trauma. It could 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:08.760 be you were upset at work today and you stuffed 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.760 your feelings down, or just could be who knows, your 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.440 nervous system is just going off. Because the point is 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.720 in the moment, and we've talked about this a lot 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.200 on the podcast, In the moment you need to handle it, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:22.520 and in that moment, you don't need to go back 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.280 to your childhood. In that moment, you need to employ 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.720 the parasympathetic nervous system. You need to be doing something, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.400 not to fight it, and not to even try to relax, 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:35.440 which is the same as fighting it, but to accept it, 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:37.680 let it pass through you and move on. And that 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.840 was the big thing with Dr Claire Weekes was except 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.080 that the panic attack is happening to you, that doesn't 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.360 mean accept it. You love it. Oh my god, we're 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.720 going to have them every day. It's great. There's nothing 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:50.239 I can do about it. That's so much she's saying. 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.720 She's saying, it's here, Let it pass through you. It 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.640 will go away quicker, and it will go away in 0:07:57.680 --> 0:07:59.840 a more real way because you're not sort of hanging 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:04.760 into it and like re um adrenalizing yourself. You know, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.520 it's like the cycle is fear adrenaline, fear adrenaline, fear adrenaline. 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:10.720 And when we fight the panic attack and act like 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.440 we need to stop this from happening, because it's bad 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.440 to have one right. When you act like the panic 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.120 symptoms are going to kill you and you fight them 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.200 because you're fighting for your life, you're going to make 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.720 it worse. You're just making more adrenaline and you're responding 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.120 to fear as though the fear is correct. But if 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.280 you let it pass through you, you're showing yourself, Oh, 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.640 this literally cannot kill me. I mean, I don't like 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:35.880 how it feels, but you will not prolong it, and 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:37.880 then after a while, you will learn not to fear it. 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:39.960 So if you have a panic attack and you're fearing it, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.320 and you're fearing it, and you're fighting it because it 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:44.240 just feels so abnormal, it feels like you're dying, and 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:45.800 you don't want to dies, you fight it. You fight it, 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.520 you fight it. When that battle is finally over, and 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.880 it can sometimes feel like an hour, and it can 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:53.719 even be an hour in the sense that you're not 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.280 going to panic straight through for an hour, but it'll 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.000 come in waves. You will not want that to happen again, 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.160 and you will fear it happening again, so that if 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:06.840 it happens again, you will respond the exact same way. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:10.240 And then because you fear one happening again, you might 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.800 avoid going to certain places. So that what's her point is, 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:18.040 if you let it pass through you, you will learn 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.440 not to fear them, and that's where the recovery is. 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:22.720 Like people are going to just willing nellly have a 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.720 panic attack sometimes because we're just made up of nerves 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.959 and we're nervous system, and so sometimes the nervous system 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.440 just like goes offline for a second, does something weird. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.280 But if you don't fear it, then you are free. 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:40.280 Because it's the fear that keeps us panicking and it's 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.040 the fear that keeps us from living our lives right again, 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.360 fear would lead to avoidance. But if you say, well, 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.120 I'm not afraid of having another panic attack. I mean 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.280 I don't feel like having another one, but I don't 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:53.240 fear it, well, then you're free. So then if one happens, 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:54.760 you're like, oh this thing, you know when you let 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.080 it pass through you. So again it's like you might 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.360 still feel fear or when you're having that panic attack, 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.959 but you're not going to fight against it. Like our 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.040 body is always trying to keep us alive. Our body 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.480 is not always right, you know. It's like we're a 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.120 dog when they're barking at your friend that's coming over 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.679 and you're like, no, no, no, this person is safe, 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.280 Like this is not an intruder, but they're gonna respond 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:19.920 to everyone coming through the door like it's an intruder 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.400 because on the time that it is one, that's how 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.800 they're going to keep you safe. Our nervous system does 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:29.319 the same thing. It starts freaking out, and then we 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.640 respond like a dog. We get afraid of what our 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.080 nerves are doing, and so we fight it because we're 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.520 like thinking we're in danger, We're going to die, so 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.080 we fight it. We're like fighting for our life the 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:40.920 way you would be if you were drowning or something 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.640 or someone was trying to bury you, you know, and 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.120 we should know better because we're not dogs, right, and 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.079 so we know there's no need to fear this. These 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:53.559 sensations literally cannot kill us. So what I liked about 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.559 her is she kept it really simple. You know. Um, 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.160 she treated a lot of people that had tried psychoanalysis 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.240 and all of these things that didn't work. And I'm 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.760 obviously not saying that therapy doesn't work, but in the 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:09.880 moment of panic and anxiety, it's really about using the 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.240 mind to combat the nervous system so that we can 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.880 then use our physical body to help calm us down. 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.240 And again, she keeps it super simple. So she was 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.839 concerned with the severe long term effects that anxiety and 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.280 panic disorders had on the lives of your patients, and 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.440 she noted that patients did not necessarily suffer from anxiety 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.520 problems because they had flawed personalities of traumatic childhoods. The 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.120 problems were caused by the patient having a habit of 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.800 fear avoidance made worse or caused by a very responsive, 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.440 sensitized nervous system. She was critical of both Freddy and 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:48.960 approaches and attempts of behaviorists to desensitize their patients using 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.920 relaxation and breathing techniques, but because again she she felt like, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.440 that's fine, I mean, relax and breathe in your own 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.079 spare time. But when you're panicking to tell your body 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.040 to relax is again you are trying to deny these 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.680 sensations that you're feeling. And the sensations won't kill you. 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.960 If you let them through, they'll become less threatening. So 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.560 she liked to call all of this nervous illness. And 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:12.640 it wasn't because she was afraid to use the word anxiety. 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.400 You know, it actually brought me fully around again to 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.440 thinking of why do we even call it anxiety and 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.320 anxiety disorders and this and that. I mean, you know, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.880 there's so many different diagnoses of anxiety, but and of 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.480 course there are situations that are different from the others, 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.160 but overall, in general, we're talking about panic attacks. Just 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.800 stay with that one for now. It really is so physical, 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.440 you know, it's not in Judith and I talked about 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.720 this like, I'm not even a fan of the words 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.360 mental health because it doesn't even mean because there's not 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.480 necessarily emotions that we're talking about. These are physical reactions 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:50.200 and then behavior isn't I mean, it's all it's all 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.079 to do with the mind and everything. But I'm really 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:57.720 which people understood that panic attacks are such a physical thing. 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:04.080 And I don't really have the words, but I'm just 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.840 trying to say that if we take care of our 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.760 body and our nervous system, that first that will affect 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.880 our brains, right, And that's why another one of my 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.960 heroes from long ago, who wrote um an invented progressive 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.080 muscle relaxation is and I'm forgetting his name even though 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:24.920 he's a hero of mine, but that's how my brain 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:29.920 works or doesn't work sometimes, And let me just look 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.960 it up because I can't. I can't do him this way. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:40.080 Progressive muscle relaxation. Oh dr Edmund Jacobson, that's right. You know. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.800 He was like, do that to relax instead of have 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.760 a drink or something like that, and he found that 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.199 it lowered so many things in the human body, like stress, 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.200 intension and high blood pressure or whatever. So anyway, big 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.280 fan of Dr Claire Week's. What was so cool about 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.520 her is when she started treating patients, she'd go to 0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.880 their homes. She was very eccentric should people move in 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.240 with her? There was this um undertone in the book 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.160 of like was she a lesbian because she had this 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.400 best friend that she lived with, and she every relationship 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:10.000 which she was in with a man she would end 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.720 and but it just doesn't like nobody really knows. I 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.040 mean I think she was. But um, so you'll hear 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.120 me not get into that with Judith because they're just 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.000 too much to talk about, but you will hear us 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:22.760 mentioned that she lived with her best friend and I 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:24.520 don't want you to think that I'm like an idiot, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:29.200 you know, like um, but she was very ahead of 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.200 her time in the sense that, you know, she was 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.360 very anti like housework, and in the sense that she 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:38.960 felt like a lot of women were feeling trapped in 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.840 a gorphobic because you know, they were housewives and didn't 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:44.440 have a choice. I mean, not that like being a 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.560 housewife necessarily is a bad thing, of course, but she 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.960 meant if if these women didn't even have choices and 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:51.960 they were feeling a gorphobic, and then the men go 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.760 and they deal with their anxiety by getting drunk after work, 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:56.240 and now you have to deal with the drunk husband. 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.200 And so a lot of patients moved in with her, 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.280 is my point. I just think that is so funny. 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.280 And then eventually, you know, in her sixties and seven, 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.240 I mean, she wrote these books in her late fifties, 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.080 and in her sixties and seventies, she was touring the 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.000 world because she was becoming a bestselling author in many 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.360 different countries. She was traveling to America to go on 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.920 late night talk shows. I mean, she was quite active 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.080 and getting more and more famous until she was in 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.000 her seventies because this was the only thing helping anxious 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.680 people who had had no language for this, and they would, 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:29.800 you know, fly to Australia to meet her and just 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.200 cling to copies of their books and just say you 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.280 understand me. And so she's really quite magical and I've 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.320 talked my god long enough about her. Let's just get 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.360 into my episode today UM with my fabulous guest, Dr 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.720 Judith Horne, and as we talked about who I wish 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.320 could have been a guest on this show, Dr Claire Weeks, 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.400 why did you want to write a book such a 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:04.000 detailed and well research book about Dr Claire Weeks. Well, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:09.600 there's probably a number of aspects to that question. But look, firstly, 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.720 she just had such a profound impact on me that 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.600 I never forgot the gift she gave me of understanding. 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.960 And um, I just couldn't believe. I came across when 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.560 I was very young, my twenties, and she was so helpful, 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.600 and I kept thinking, why does this woman not have 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.760 more recognition in Australia. And of course there was no 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.760 Internet back then, you couldn't sort of research someone easily. 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.440 I just was aware that, you know, there is sort 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.120 of obviously her books were on sale, but I couldn't 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.880 work out why she had no um, you know, there 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.720 was no Clerqus to her. There was Austrata didn't seem 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.160 to realize they had had this person who was so 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.000 incredibly helpful. Well, I didn't know how widely helpful she was. 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:53.440 But I was a journalist and I became a long 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.080 form editor, and I was very aware of how rare 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.960 the gift of writing, actually really good writing and clear writing, 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:05.359 writing that changes things, writing that changes the way people 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.800 think and live is rare. And I thought, this woman 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.840 has got it to me. And that was from a 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.440 professional point of view. So when I decided to step 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.679 back from journalism, um, I was into my sixties, and 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.800 I thought, I'd rather I've been working on a long 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.120 form journalist enough that I'd really be interested in doing 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.879 something longer myself. And I thought, what I you know 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:28.960 I can get. I have to be very passionate about 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:30.560 a subject I want to write it. I won't want 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:32.639 to sit down and write, so that wouldn't interest me 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.560 at all. So I came up. I certainly thought of her. 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:37.800 One night, I was sitting with a glass of white 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.760 wine in my hand and ruminating on what I could 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:42.720 write about it, and her name jumped into my head, 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.480 and I thought, that's it, that is it. She is it. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.320 But she's surely been written about. I cannot be the 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.720 first person. I won't have been the first person. So 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.760 but a little bit of research turned up that amazingly, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:58.040 no one else had written her biography. So that was 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.119 the first step where where I was really thrilled with 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.560 the idea. And then I thought, but I'm I believe 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.000 she's good because I've had a lifetime for assessing writing 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:11.720 to confirm my really personal experience of her gift. But 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.760 I better test that. So I found on a little 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:20.120 Wikipedia entry of reference to an American psychiatrist called Dr 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.480 Robert DuPont, who was very well known for his work 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.040 in them. He was called the Drugs are Helping you 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.639 know stem that tired of drug addiction in the seventies 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:35.360 as presidential advisor, so he had a really quite illustrious background, 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.960 and I noticed he was very affirmative about her her 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.080 work and spoke very highly of it. But he was 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.280 the only one. So I got his email. I emailed 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.280 him and honestly, overnight overnight came back this email and 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.879 in the header said, I am the guy you want. 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.400 I would give you all the help you need. This 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.520 woman has never been recognized. I'm here to do anything. 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:01.159 And he was just incredible. So the next day I 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.359 had you, are I think a confirmation? I think, yes, 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.200 this woman is really significant, and I think your instincts 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.240 absolutely right, and I will help you. And at that 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.120 point I just literally never looked back. For five years 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.360 I worked on that book, which, as you say, has 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:16.720 a lot of the search in it, but it was 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.680 a joy. Well, what I appreciate that you're talking about 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.840 her from a writer's perspective is the reason her books 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:23.960 were so successful, beyond the fact that she was the 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.440 first person to talk about what we now know as agoraphobia, 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.879 panic attacks, and anxiety, is that she herself experienced it. 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.639 But as you're saying, beyond that, as a writer, you 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.399 know she wrote it. Beyond just that she wrote it 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.040 in first person. A lot of it was taken from transcriptions, 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:43.119 according to your book, of actual conversations she had with people. 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.320 But yeah, it is the way she wrote that you 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:50.240 feel as though she's writing to you. Oh, that's that's 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.119 absolutely right. It's she's talking to And the books are 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.960 written in the first person. They open with if you 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.679 are sitting down reading this book, now, you will have 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.120 no trouble concentrate. And you may not have been able 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.280 to read in newspaper, but this book you will be 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.399 able to concentrate on. It's true, you'll be able to 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.520 read it from beginning to and deny remember doing that 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.680 myself because it's written in the first person, but it's 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.359 written with such an intimate knowledge of what the reader 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.360 is going through that that, of course for the reader, 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.800 no one had ever shown such intimate knowledge of what 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:27.119 they thought was such bizarre internal life. They are disturbing 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:31.639 internal life they had that they were just totally captivated. 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:33.399 And I think if you happen to pick up the 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.639 book while you're feeling anxious, it is a way of 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.879 arresting that it engages you directly. You don't feel like 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:44.280 you're reading some theories or that you're outside of it. 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.000 It's it's very calming. And so, did you ever have 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.359 anxiety in your life? Is that why she is someone 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.240 that meant so much to you? Yes? I did, I did. 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:58.880 I was in it was rather was in my early twenties. Um, 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.200 you know, it's probably maybe I was an anxious child, 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.320 but I don't remember it being a major issue as 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.359 a child. But in my in my late teens and 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:10.760 early twenties, it's the sort of leaving home period, you know, 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.040 where you're dealing with the world and a few a 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.760 few slightly disastrous combinations. I were not disastrous. They were 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:18.679 wonderful in some ways and bad and others. But I 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.639 became a journalist in the National Press Gallery, um, and 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.280 you know that was I was covering their Stralian Federal 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:28.800 Parliament every day. And I had studied politics, and I 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:32.520 thought this job was just absolutely fantastic and I thought 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:34.080 it was a privilege to get up every day and 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:39.960 cover um, these significant affairs of the world and so 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.560 so um. But it was a very demanding life. I mean, 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.400 being a daily journalist is pretty hepped and hut. And 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.560 I also there was a lot of partying in that thing. 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:53.879 You know, it was a very male atmosphere. There are 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.639 a lot of late nights, you know, it was. And 0:21:57.000 --> 0:21:59.679