WEBVTT - Stewart Copeland 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.356 --> 0:00:23.116 Drummer and composer Stuart Copeland has one of the more 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:27.116 fascinating bios in modern music. His father was a founding 0:00:27.156 --> 0:00:30.596 member of the CIA, and his mom worked in British intelligence. 0:00:31.236 --> 0:00:33.276 He grew up the youngest of four kids, living for 0:00:33.316 --> 0:00:36.036 a time in the hills outside of Beirut before attending 0:00:36.076 --> 0:00:40.036 boarding schools in England. After playing in the successful UK 0:00:40.116 --> 0:00:43.516 prog rock band Curved Air in the mid seventies, Stuart 0:00:43.516 --> 0:00:46.556 started a new band called The Police with bassist and 0:00:46.636 --> 0:00:51.156 lead singer Sting and eventually guitarist Andy Summers. Over the 0:00:51.236 --> 0:00:53.436 next decade, the Police would go on to become one 0:00:53.476 --> 0:00:56.156 of the top selling rock bands of all time, selling 0:00:56.196 --> 0:01:00.716 over seventy five million records. Last year, Stuart released the 0:01:00.716 --> 0:01:04.836 book Stuart Copeland's Police Diaries, which includes his personal notes 0:01:04.956 --> 0:01:07.596 dating back to the band's formation in nineteen seventy six 0:01:08.116 --> 0:01:11.636 through seventy eight, when they started to take off. On 0:01:11.676 --> 0:01:14.556 today's episode, Bruce Heln talks to Stuart Copeland about the 0:01:14.556 --> 0:01:17.036 first time he saw Sting play and how he was 0:01:17.036 --> 0:01:20.476 able to successfully lure him into his then non existent band. 0:01:21.196 --> 0:01:23.916 Stuart also explains why he and Sting eventually had a 0:01:23.996 --> 0:01:26.596 musical falling out, and how the Arabic rhythms he heard 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:30.196 growing up in Lebanon influenced his highly lauded drumming style. 0:01:32.956 --> 0:01:36.196 This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:36.356 --> 0:01:41.716 I'm justin Mitchman. Here's Bruce Heln's conversation with Stuart Copeland. 0:01:42.396 --> 0:01:44.916 Well, thank you so much for doing this. You're always 0:01:44.996 --> 0:01:49.036 doing something. One of the latest things you've done is 0:01:49.316 --> 0:01:52.716 Stuart Copeland's Police Diaries, and I'd like to start by 0:01:52.756 --> 0:01:57.476 talking about that. It's this incredible chronicle of three years 0:01:57.476 --> 0:01:58.836 in the seventies. 0:01:58.756 --> 0:02:00.636 Yes, the years of the CUSP. 0:02:01.036 --> 0:02:03.316 How did the book come about? What was it like 0:02:03.396 --> 0:02:03.796 doing it? 0:02:04.196 --> 0:02:06.996 Well, I had the diaries already, sort of like when 0:02:06.996 --> 0:02:09.356 I made my film. I had the film already that 0:02:09.516 --> 0:02:12.716 was sitting in shoe boxes until they invented computers where 0:02:12.756 --> 0:02:15.116 I could digitize them all. The books was not the 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:17.596 same problem. But I've got these diaries sitting in a 0:02:17.676 --> 0:02:20.236 drawer over there, and they're tiny little books, so they 0:02:20.236 --> 0:02:22.156 don't take up too much space. I still got them, 0:02:22.956 --> 0:02:26.396 and I'm not quite sure where the idea came from 0:02:26.436 --> 0:02:29.476 to turn them into kind of more like a scrapbook 0:02:29.476 --> 0:02:33.076 than a book book. But looking at these notes, how 0:02:33.156 --> 0:02:35.556 much we got paid, what clubs we played, just the 0:02:35.596 --> 0:02:40.476 statistics of the day got me thinking and philosophizing. So 0:02:40.596 --> 0:02:43.156 I ended up writing a lot of modern commentary to 0:02:43.236 --> 0:02:46.196 go with those historical notes. 0:02:46.716 --> 0:02:50.076 But they're precisely the right kind of diaries that most 0:02:50.076 --> 0:02:53.916 people don't keep. People often write about their feelings, which 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:56.276 you don't care about twenty years later, but you want 0:02:56.276 --> 0:02:57.476 to know how much you got paid. 0:02:57.956 --> 0:03:00.636 Yeah, I got both of those diaries. I've got my 0:03:00.756 --> 0:03:04.716 secret innermost thoughts, which are not pretty. I could only 0:03:04.916 --> 0:03:08.476 stand to look at them forty years later, and they 0:03:08.556 --> 0:03:12.356 take on a and comedic element forty years later. But 0:03:12.436 --> 0:03:18.196 it's all my secret, grandiose schemes, gloating over this grievance, 0:03:18.356 --> 0:03:22.796 nurturing you know, I don't need these guys. I had 0:03:22.796 --> 0:03:24.716 a hit with Clark Kent, but while the police was 0:03:24.756 --> 0:03:28.396 still starving and going nowhere, out of the blue, I 0:03:28.516 --> 0:03:33.076 recorded some songs my gosh darn self, and by some miracle, 0:03:33.516 --> 0:03:36.036 BBC Radio One picked it up, put it on the playlist, 0:03:36.036 --> 0:03:38.196 and there I am, under the name of Clark Kent, 0:03:38.476 --> 0:03:41.836 having a hit. And I can say, looking at what 0:03:41.836 --> 0:03:44.796 my thinking was at the time, I don't need these 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:48.956 guys that Clark Kent disappeared in the nick of time. 0:03:49.356 --> 0:03:51.796 But they were very game. They appeared with you on 0:03:51.876 --> 0:03:55.116 top of the pops Sting and Andy Summers. 0:03:55.476 --> 0:03:58.276 Sting was very supportive. Of course, we know why because 0:03:58.316 --> 0:04:00.676 he was in the process of taking over the Police, 0:04:01.436 --> 0:04:03.436 and that just made his job a lot easier to 0:04:03.556 --> 0:04:06.436 keep me busy and distracted with Clark Kent and my 0:04:06.516 --> 0:04:09.996 dumb song. Okay, there's where you could take your dumb songs. Meanwhile, 0:04:10.036 --> 0:04:13.876 the Police's mine. And by the way, that was good 0:04:13.916 --> 0:04:16.716 news for me. Weirdly, actually not weirdly at all. I mean, 0:04:16.756 --> 0:04:19.636 there's a logic to it that at a certain point 0:04:19.916 --> 0:04:22.516 I can see the setlists at a certain point, they're 0:04:22.516 --> 0:04:28.116 in his handwriting, and you could see his maneuvering to 0:04:28.156 --> 0:04:31.076 take over the band. And nothing could have made me 0:04:31.116 --> 0:04:35.036 happier because my thought at the time was keeping him 0:04:35.036 --> 0:04:37.476 in the band, and to the extent that he took 0:04:37.516 --> 0:04:40.196 an interest in the band was the extent that I 0:04:40.196 --> 0:04:44.156 could feel secure in keeping him in the band. So 0:04:44.436 --> 0:04:47.196 I was real happy when he took on leadership position, 0:04:47.236 --> 0:04:50.236 when he took the initiative, when he stepped forward, even 0:04:50.276 --> 0:04:52.996 when it was my band, and he was doing it 0:04:53.076 --> 0:04:55.676 kind of because I pushed him into it. As soon 0:04:55.716 --> 0:04:57.836 as we walked on stage. He was in charge, he 0:04:57.916 --> 0:04:59.996 was on the mic. He would take no prisoners. If 0:04:59.996 --> 0:05:03.236 he's walking on stage, it is his sacred duty to 0:05:03.476 --> 0:05:05.956 burn the house down. And so that was always fine 0:05:05.996 --> 0:05:10.276 on stage, but off stage, everybody London was whispering in 0:05:10.316 --> 0:05:13.876 his ear. And so as he asserted himself more and more, 0:05:14.236 --> 0:05:17.676 I felt more and more secure that the band would survive. 0:05:18.036 --> 0:05:21.156 And you didn't have insecurity about the writing because you'd 0:05:21.196 --> 0:05:22.356 written so many songs. 0:05:22.956 --> 0:05:25.476 No, not at all, because his songs every time he 0:05:25.476 --> 0:05:29.036 brought one in was an upgrade. Wow, let's play that. 0:05:29.516 --> 0:05:32.796 And my songs were pretty much not because I had 0:05:32.796 --> 0:05:36.476 an achy breaky heart and needed to unload my feelings 0:05:36.556 --> 0:05:39.996 upon the world. No, they were just songs of utility, 0:05:40.116 --> 0:05:42.636 something we could play in those punk clubs, you know, 0:05:43.636 --> 0:05:47.916 basslines with the yelling to fill the punk brief. And 0:05:47.996 --> 0:05:51.396 so I didn't have any thoughts of myself as a songwriter. 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:54.516 So when he brought songs in, I was always very happy. 0:05:54.956 --> 0:05:56.316 They were always an upgrade. 0:05:56.716 --> 0:05:58.916 Looking back now, though you didn't think of yourself as 0:05:58.956 --> 0:06:02.636 a songwriter then you've written just a staggering amount of music. 0:06:03.396 --> 0:06:06.396 Yeah, but not so much songs. I've had success in 0:06:06.436 --> 0:06:10.596 almost every known form of music up for songs. You know. 0:06:10.676 --> 0:06:13.116 My first success, I suppose on my own, was with 0:06:13.196 --> 0:06:16.276 a song Don't Care, under the name of Clark Kent, 0:06:16.516 --> 0:06:18.556 and that was pretty much it for my songwriting. Then 0:06:18.596 --> 0:06:22.316 with film, composing, with opera, with symphonic works, in every 0:06:22.356 --> 0:06:25.476 other known form of music, ethnic stuff, global stuff, and 0:06:25.516 --> 0:06:28.356 so on. I've had a heck of a party. That 0:06:28.556 --> 0:06:31.996 song thing not my strongest suit. 0:06:32.076 --> 0:06:35.796 I guess that's an interesting question. What makes either a 0:06:35.796 --> 0:06:37.716 good song or a good song writer? 0:06:38.156 --> 0:06:40.556 Then, well, giving a darn about the lyrics? For one, 0:06:41.236 --> 0:06:43.836 me in the car, driving along, slapping the steering wheel. 0:06:44.356 --> 0:06:47.916 It's the baseline, it's the riff, it's the drums. Somebody's 0:06:47.956 --> 0:06:50.756 singing something somewhere, but I never paid attention. I never 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:52.956 sang in the shower, I never sing in the car. 0:06:53.476 --> 0:06:55.476 I'm not so much of a song I don't. I 0:06:55.596 --> 0:06:58.356 listened to the musical textures. That's what catches my ear, 0:06:59.276 --> 0:07:01.156 and by the way, that goes for police songs too. 0:07:01.196 --> 0:07:03.476 I had no idea what the hell he was singing about, 0:07:03.596 --> 0:07:05.116 you know, all I ever saw was the back of 0:07:05.196 --> 0:07:08.956 his head, preferably, and I don't know what he was 0:07:09.196 --> 0:07:12.156 thinking about. And it wasn't until I did my Police 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:15.556 Deranged for Orchestra that I took those songs and I 0:07:15.596 --> 0:07:17.836 had to analyze them and orchestrate them and figure out 0:07:17.836 --> 0:07:19.956 the vocal harmonies for my three singers and so on, 0:07:20.276 --> 0:07:23.556 that I realized, Damn, those lyrics are pretty smart. Damn 0:07:23.916 --> 0:07:26.596 should have paid attention. At the time, I was just 0:07:26.596 --> 0:07:28.796 banging shit. I didn't need to pay attention. That was 0:07:28.836 --> 0:07:31.396 his gig. It wasn't until years later that I discovered 0:07:32.236 --> 0:07:34.636 and don't tell him I said this, that guy's kind 0:07:34.636 --> 0:07:35.756 of a genius with the words. 0:07:35.996 --> 0:07:38.876 Yeah. One thing I loved about the book is it 0:07:38.876 --> 0:07:40.836 does go from the sort of slow death of your 0:07:40.876 --> 0:07:45.236 band Curved Air, through the birth of the Police. But 0:07:45.276 --> 0:07:49.316 it's really also this document about what happened when punk 0:07:49.436 --> 0:07:52.476 rock hit. Yes, because you were a little older, you 0:07:52.516 --> 0:07:56.436 weren't punk rock wasn't your first go at the music business? 0:07:56.836 --> 0:07:58.836 What did it feel like in London? Then? 0:07:59.956 --> 0:08:03.356 Very exciting because for the likes of Stingo and I, 0:08:03.876 --> 0:08:07.316 who were born in the fifties early fifties, we were 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:10.876 too young to be hit. The hippie thing had come 0:08:10.876 --> 0:08:13.756 and gone. If we could feel the entropy of that world, 0:08:14.476 --> 0:08:17.556 the prog world, and this new thing. We were older 0:08:17.596 --> 0:08:20.556 than the Damned and the Clash and the pistols, you know, 0:08:20.596 --> 0:08:23.556 and we'd been professionals. We actually knew how to play 0:08:23.556 --> 0:08:27.356 our instruments and were professional musicians. Where a lot of 0:08:27.396 --> 0:08:31.556 the charm of punk was the naivete and the Clash 0:08:31.596 --> 0:08:35.316 were the These knives who knew three chords but had 0:08:35.356 --> 0:08:40.236 great attitude, great look and just instinctively were great musicians 0:08:40.436 --> 0:08:44.076 without a lot of musical vocabulary, and that kind of 0:08:44.116 --> 0:08:48.676 distilled the excitement of that punk sound. But we knew better, 0:08:48.716 --> 0:08:51.756 we knew more. We had a larger musical vocabulary in 0:08:51.836 --> 0:08:55.036 which we had to hide at first, and it wasn't 0:08:55.116 --> 0:08:58.476 until we started unhiding that musicality. Like when Andy joined, 0:08:58.516 --> 0:09:01.276 we couldn't hide it anymore. And that's when Stings started 0:09:01.276 --> 0:09:03.916 writing the big songs, and we just had to live 0:09:04.036 --> 0:09:05.716 up to the fact that we actually knew one or 0:09:05.756 --> 0:09:08.876 two things about music. But that cusp to which you 0:09:08.916 --> 0:09:13.116 were was an interesting time. Think. In nineteen seventy six 0:09:13.276 --> 0:09:16.476 there was an oil crisis which raised the price of 0:09:16.596 --> 0:09:20.196 vinyl drastically that was the talk at the time. Suddenly 0:09:20.236 --> 0:09:24.236 records became Suddenly the music industry had the stuffing knocked 0:09:24.236 --> 0:09:27.276 out of it by supply chain issues kind of thing, 0:09:27.676 --> 0:09:30.076 and also just the feeling that everyone had seen it done. 0:09:30.156 --> 0:09:32.396 It had all been seen and done where it needs 0:09:32.436 --> 0:09:35.836 something new, folks. And then one of the sex pistols 0:09:35.876 --> 0:09:39.116 I think is either Paul Cook or Jonesy said fuck 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:43.356 on National TV and a whole new world opened up. 0:09:43.796 --> 0:09:47.276 Was it at all threatening to you as someone who 0:09:48.236 --> 0:09:51.796 loved music and valued music. Your two bandmates are both 0:09:52.316 --> 0:09:56.676 excellent musicians, and suddenly the airwaves are dominated by people 0:09:56.716 --> 0:09:59.236 who can't really play well. 0:09:59.276 --> 0:10:02.356 Actually know, the airwaves were not dominated because the BBC 0:10:02.516 --> 0:10:04.716 didn't play them. They were still playing old wave, they 0:10:04.716 --> 0:10:07.156 were still playing progue, well not even prog, they were 0:10:07.156 --> 0:10:11.196 playing pop music. And what was so appealing about the 0:10:11.236 --> 0:10:14.756 punk scene was that it didn't rely on you know, 0:10:15.116 --> 0:10:18.476 radio play. It was word of mouth, it was the fanzines, 0:10:18.556 --> 0:10:21.076 it was just the scene being on the scene. You 0:10:21.116 --> 0:10:23.516 could do it your damn self. And he didn't need 0:10:23.516 --> 0:10:26.996 a record company. And one of the things I noticed 0:10:27.036 --> 0:10:29.796 reading my diaries when I went from a prog band, 0:10:29.796 --> 0:10:33.196 which was you know, it had been successful long before 0:10:33.276 --> 0:10:36.396 my time. I was the last rat to jump aboard 0:10:36.636 --> 0:10:39.316 the sinking ship. But it was playing big places for 0:10:39.396 --> 0:10:41.316 good money. We had a road crew, we had a 0:10:41.356 --> 0:10:43.756 special car for you know, we were living high on 0:10:43.796 --> 0:10:48.716 the hog, on the dregs of the prog rock industry. 0:10:49.036 --> 0:10:52.156 I never see any complaint going from three roadies in 0:10:52.196 --> 0:10:55.676 a fancy car to no roadies and we're riding down 0:10:55.676 --> 0:10:58.836 in a truck and literally we played Torquy. We slept 0:10:58.716 --> 0:11:03.276 in a farm shed like Jesus in a manger, But 0:11:03.476 --> 0:11:06.556 not any complaint. It was because this is my band 0:11:06.916 --> 0:11:08.916 and it was doing We're doing it for ourselves. You know, 0:11:09.196 --> 0:11:11.676 we get paid thirty quid. It would go into our 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:14.596 pockets right away rather than getting sucked up by the machine. 0:11:15.356 --> 0:11:19.836 And so even though we were on much reduced circumstances, 0:11:19.916 --> 0:11:21.756 just the feeling that we were in charge of our 0:11:21.796 --> 0:11:24.756 destiny made up for that. But you know, the old 0:11:24.796 --> 0:11:27.116 scene was going out and the new scene was the 0:11:27.196 --> 0:11:29.476 new wave was coming in, and we would be on 0:11:29.476 --> 0:11:31.836 the front of that way rather than swirling in the 0:11:31.876 --> 0:11:34.596 SuDS on the back side. But then down in those 0:11:34.676 --> 0:11:37.356 punk clubs, it was all going on. It was exciting 0:11:37.676 --> 0:11:39.396 and we could be boss of it. And when Sting 0:11:39.436 --> 0:11:42.516 and I went down to the Roxy Club first open, 0:11:42.596 --> 0:11:46.076 we looked around at all the minnows, which as sharks 0:11:46.156 --> 0:11:47.116 we could consume. 0:11:48.196 --> 0:11:50.756 Did you always feel the band had a destiny? 0:11:51.796 --> 0:11:54.716 Yeah, oh absolutely. I think I'm pretty sure that every 0:11:54.836 --> 0:11:58.356 band thinks that world domination is their rightful destiny. 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:02.036 Did anything surprise you going through the diaries, Well. 0:12:02.076 --> 0:12:04.596 A few things. One was how much of a slog 0:12:04.636 --> 0:12:08.156 it was, I mean, looking through these pages, here, wake up, 0:12:08.476 --> 0:12:10.596 you know, go down to Ealing, pick up the truck, 0:12:10.836 --> 0:12:13.196 drive the truck over to the other end of London, 0:12:13.236 --> 0:12:15.716 pick up the gear, drive over to pick up Andy, 0:12:16.076 --> 0:12:19.076 drive to the rehearsal. Rehearsal all day, try and book 0:12:19.116 --> 0:12:22.076 some dates, drop the gear off that you know, just endless, 0:12:22.196 --> 0:12:25.596 endless hustle. Then hoover the apartment. Then have an Indian meal. 0:12:25.716 --> 0:12:29.516 Every Indian meal is carefully documented, which is kind of interesting. 0:12:30.116 --> 0:12:32.716 But the largest thing that surprised me looking back with 0:12:32.876 --> 0:12:37.516 all that struggle and toil was that we didn't have songs. Remembering, 0:12:38.276 --> 0:12:40.036 we didn't have rock sand, we didn't have a message 0:12:40.036 --> 0:12:41.676 in a bottle, we didn't have every breath you take. 0:12:41.716 --> 0:12:45.396 We didn't have anything but dead end job, these dumb 0:12:45.436 --> 0:12:48.036 songs that I had written, so we knew that we 0:12:48.036 --> 0:12:50.756 were in the right musical company. We're playing with the 0:12:50.836 --> 0:12:53.196 right players. This is the band. Even though we didn't 0:12:53.236 --> 0:12:56.236 have those brilliant songs. We had crap songs, but just 0:12:56.276 --> 0:13:00.476 the musicianship of our partners in crime, that's what kept 0:13:00.516 --> 0:13:03.596 us together. And then one day we ran into Andy 0:13:03.596 --> 0:13:07.076 Summers and Sting's ears pricked up and he started writing 0:13:07.116 --> 0:13:10.236 those songs, which I'll have to ask him about this, 0:13:10.316 --> 0:13:12.636 but you know, you'll have to ask him about this, 0:13:12.756 --> 0:13:14.676 But I don't think he had much of an inkling 0:13:14.796 --> 0:13:18.516 himself that he could write those hits, because he saw 0:13:18.636 --> 0:13:21.316 himself as a jazz musician, which is kind of the 0:13:21.316 --> 0:13:24.316 antithesis of pop songs. So I think he was just 0:13:24.396 --> 0:13:26.716 as surprised as us that he just had this knack. 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:29.356 He just, you know, he what he learned from punk, 0:13:29.356 --> 0:13:33.796 which was the distillation of the musical material into verse chorus, 0:13:33.996 --> 0:13:38.716 verse chorus, bridge, verse chorus out done very simple formula 0:13:38.756 --> 0:13:41.476 from the Beatles, you know, through all pop music. And 0:13:41.556 --> 0:13:48.396 I think that distillation, combined with Andy's expanded harmonic musical vocabulary. 0:13:49.076 --> 0:13:51.956 That's when nuclear fusion happened. 0:13:52.556 --> 0:13:55.316 Was there a moment where you saw that. Was there 0:13:55.356 --> 0:13:57.756 one song that you thought, wait a second, this could 0:13:57.796 --> 0:13:58.076 be it? 0:13:58.476 --> 0:14:02.516 There were moments and songs. Born in the fifties was 0:14:02.556 --> 0:14:04.436 the first song he brought in, well, not even one 0:14:04.436 --> 0:14:07.476 of his big ones, but it was such a cool song, 0:14:07.956 --> 0:14:11.076 thinking yeah, let's play. But it didn't dawn on me 0:14:11.196 --> 0:14:14.916 that somebody else was writing songs. I just never crossed 0:14:14.956 --> 0:14:18.036 my mind. That's a cool song. Let's play. It can't 0:14:18.076 --> 0:14:21.556 stand Losing You was the first one, or maybe Roxane 0:14:21.636 --> 0:14:24.836 was the first sort of reggae ish one that we attempted, 0:14:25.196 --> 0:14:27.716 and it worked out really well that we really were 0:14:27.796 --> 0:14:30.716 very pleased with ourselves. Well this is darn clever. This 0:14:30.796 --> 0:14:35.596 will bring world domination within our grasp, and we loved it. 0:14:35.636 --> 0:14:41.196 But the more inspiring moments were moments rather than songs, 0:14:41.316 --> 0:14:44.036 and for instance, one of those would be when we 0:14:44.116 --> 0:14:47.716 went to Germany. There's the whole Andy the Courtship of 0:14:47.756 --> 0:14:51.396 Andy Summers part of the book. But he joined canned 0:14:51.396 --> 0:14:53.156 all of his other gigs, but he had one gig 0:14:53.236 --> 0:14:56.276 left over in Germany. There was this German composer called 0:14:56.316 --> 0:15:01.996 Eberhart Schener, who had this multi media show involving lasers, 0:15:02.276 --> 0:15:06.876 ballet dancing, a jazz saxophonist, all these different elements, and 0:15:06.876 --> 0:15:09.956 Andy Summers and and got me the job. Say any night, 0:15:09.956 --> 0:15:12.876 go over to Germany. And we convinced that this is 0:15:12.916 --> 0:15:15.676 a great show. What you need just one last element, 0:15:15.756 --> 0:15:18.396 you need punk band. And we got this bass player 0:15:18.396 --> 0:15:21.036 over in London, so we brought the bass player over. 0:15:21.556 --> 0:15:25.156 So we're all rehearsing for this show. And one night 0:15:25.316 --> 0:15:27.156 I think it was actually live on stage because we 0:15:27.156 --> 0:15:29.236 were unrehearsed and we you know a lot of it. 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:31.436 We didn't know what was supposed to happen next. And 0:15:31.876 --> 0:15:35.316 one of the elements was jazz singer Lady and she 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:37.196 was sort of the Shah day of her day and 0:15:37.556 --> 0:15:41.636 sang flat and liked it that way. You know, she 0:15:41.676 --> 0:15:44.476 had the one shoulder down the jazz attitude and sneered 0:15:44.476 --> 0:15:46.756 at us punk rockers. And one day she made the 0:15:46.796 --> 0:15:50.756 mistake of walking away from the microphone, and young Stingo 0:15:50.836 --> 0:15:55.116 walks up to the microphone and starts this keening wailing. 0:15:55.916 --> 0:15:59.156 I don't know how to describe it, just yodeling. Anybody 0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:01.876 whoever came to a police show knows exactly what I'm 0:16:01.876 --> 0:16:04.556 talking about. You know, when Sting goes off, he just 0:16:04.596 --> 0:16:08.716 starts some repetitive vocalization combined with the bassline that we'd 0:16:08.756 --> 0:16:11.236 never heard before. Then he just goes off and it 0:16:11.276 --> 0:16:14.356 comes to him and every heart is broken. The birds 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:17.836 stop their song just like Andy and Iron. The shadows 0:16:17.876 --> 0:16:21.636 next him, going holy gopher fuck, where did that come from? 0:16:21.996 --> 0:16:24.236 And he just like he takes flight right there in 0:16:24.276 --> 0:16:27.436 front of us, and we're going, Jesus Christ. We'd only 0:16:27.476 --> 0:16:29.716 ever heard him yelling, you know, because that was his 0:16:29.796 --> 0:16:32.396 brief in the punk band. But to just hear him 0:16:32.556 --> 0:16:35.676 soaring with that kind of melodic invention, None of that 0:16:35.716 --> 0:16:37.756 would have been allowed in London. We would have been 0:16:37.796 --> 0:16:40.756 torn apart by the New Musical Express and by Melody 0:16:40.756 --> 0:16:43.996 Maker and so on for such musicality. And our next 0:16:44.036 --> 0:16:46.836 time was when we went over to America, where people 0:16:46.876 --> 0:16:48.436 didn't know any better. They didn't know that it was 0:16:48.476 --> 0:16:51.036 supposed to be crap music only is allowed, and so 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:55.636 we would stretch our scant material into three sets, which 0:16:55.676 --> 0:16:59.276 involved a lot of jamming and improvisation, and that again 0:16:59.396 --> 0:17:02.156 is where we discovered each other. Damn that Andy's got 0:17:02.156 --> 0:17:04.116 some chops on him. You know, I'd only ever heard 0:17:04.156 --> 0:17:09.396 him god, you know, but now he's playing with all 0:17:09.436 --> 0:17:11.956 that virtuositic you know, that stuff he can do with 0:17:11.956 --> 0:17:15.756 his fingers, arpeggiated things, these sound clouds and so on, 0:17:16.316 --> 0:17:20.116 and so we kind of discovered ourselves at these crucial moments. 0:17:20.436 --> 0:17:22.716 Is that when you really heard that kind of police 0:17:22.796 --> 0:17:24.076 sound for the first time. 0:17:25.116 --> 0:17:29.476 Yeah, it was when Stings got licensed to actually sing, 0:17:30.196 --> 0:17:34.116 and when Andy he had another factor, which is that 0:17:34.396 --> 0:17:37.276 his gear was I think he had a music Man amp, 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:40.196 which is a very clean amplifier, perfect for air conditioned 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:45.596 studio session recording, but not to move air at a 0:17:45.596 --> 0:17:50.996 punk club. But he developed his pedals, his effects into 0:17:51.036 --> 0:17:55.236 a manageable, portable foot board. We called it the fred 0:17:55.236 --> 0:17:59.796 Astaire with all of his effects and gismatronics, his delay 0:17:59.836 --> 0:18:02.916 lines and echo n and he developed this style of 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:05.876 guitar playing which was not about wiggling his fingers but 0:18:05.956 --> 0:18:09.716 about creating a soundscape song as like walking on the Moon. 0:18:10.476 --> 0:18:13.716 There's no Fiddley Eric Clapton on there. It's just an 0:18:14.276 --> 0:18:19.556 entire orchestral world of sound that Andy started creating. So 0:18:19.716 --> 0:18:23.116 the discovery of Stings singing and his songwriting and Andy's 0:18:23.236 --> 0:18:28.756 huge sound vocabulary as well as harmonic vocabulary. That's when 0:18:28.756 --> 0:18:30.676 the police sound began to emerge. 0:18:31.076 --> 0:18:34.196 Now you're this guy that doesn't like jazz or didn't like. 0:18:34.196 --> 0:18:36.116 That I'm I'm just at the back of the stage 0:18:36.196 --> 0:18:36.716 banging shit. 0:18:37.036 --> 0:18:40.876 But suddenly you've got a jazz bass player, and you've 0:18:40.916 --> 0:18:46.516 got Andy who loves using chord extensions and you know, 0:18:46.676 --> 0:18:49.756 sharp thirteenths and he'll take the third out of the 0:18:49.876 --> 0:18:53.236 chord to create all this. Were you thinking, this isn't 0:18:53.236 --> 0:18:55.396 why I got in this or did you just love 0:18:55.436 --> 0:18:56.156 the effect? 0:18:56.636 --> 0:18:59.156 No, it was why I got into it, because somewhere 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:03.276 beneath the machiavellian game plan of a punk band to 0:19:03.316 --> 0:19:07.996 play in the punk scene, there was still this inner, deeper, 0:19:08.236 --> 0:19:12.276 lurking musicality that could not be suppressed, which just woke 0:19:12.356 --> 0:19:14.796 up to that cool shit that Andy and Sting were 0:19:14.836 --> 0:19:17.076 coming up with. And in fact, I saw that moment 0:19:17.116 --> 0:19:19.676 with Sting driving home from our first session with Andy, 0:19:19.956 --> 0:19:23.356 where we were the hired rhythm section on someone else's 0:19:23.356 --> 0:19:26.316 album and Andy was the hired guitar player. That's where 0:19:26.316 --> 0:19:28.316 we met Andy. Andy walks in the room. We'd all 0:19:28.356 --> 0:19:31.076 heard about him by reputation. Wow, you know we got 0:19:31.116 --> 0:19:33.396 this is some big brass we got going here. And 0:19:33.476 --> 0:19:36.556 we just spent a day playing actual music. It wasn't 0:19:36.636 --> 0:19:39.156 hit music, but it was real music, and we just 0:19:39.236 --> 0:19:42.156 felt so fulfilled. And driving home that night, Stingo is 0:19:42.196 --> 0:19:46.036 seething and he's just saying, Man, I love Henry, our guitarist, 0:19:46.036 --> 0:19:48.316 who only knew three chords. We could play them really well. 0:19:48.916 --> 0:19:51.316 I had the vibe, he had the right shades and 0:19:51.316 --> 0:19:54.316 the upturned leather jacket collar and everything. He was perfect. 0:19:54.476 --> 0:19:56.836 In fact, he was the nearly genuine punk in the band. 0:19:57.476 --> 0:20:00.156 But that musicality thing is things is just going gosh, 0:20:00.276 --> 0:20:02.316 you know, music got it forgotten? What is like to 0:20:02.356 --> 0:20:04.676 be playing music? We got to get you know, that 0:20:04.716 --> 0:20:07.276 guy in the band. I'm saying, dude, we can't afford him. 0:20:07.556 --> 0:20:09.996 There's no way. Why would he he joined. You know, 0:20:10.196 --> 0:20:11.956 even if he says he's going to join, they'll quit 0:20:11.996 --> 0:20:13.716 a week later when he sees the shit we have 0:20:13.796 --> 0:20:16.196 to put up with. And this thing is going. God, 0:20:16.276 --> 0:20:19.276 you know, you're a better guitar player than Henry Pottervani 0:20:19.676 --> 0:20:23.836 and your crap. And I think, really, God, out of 0:20:23.836 --> 0:20:27.076 the blue, this unexpected Accolade, and then over the next 0:20:27.116 --> 0:20:30.436 few weeks this dance began where you know, we're sort 0:20:30.436 --> 0:20:32.556 of in touch. You know that Mike Hollett, a guy 0:20:32.636 --> 0:20:34.516 played in a band called Gong, which I'm sure no 0:20:34.556 --> 0:20:37.316 one in America has heard of, big in Europe, and 0:20:37.396 --> 0:20:38.996 it was his solo album. He was a bass player. 0:20:38.996 --> 0:20:41.516 Why did he want a bass player? God only knows. Anyhow, 0:20:41.596 --> 0:20:44.676 he woke up twenty years later saying, my gosh, my 0:20:44.796 --> 0:20:47.636 solo album that I made twenty years ago. The band 0:20:47.916 --> 0:20:50.876 is the Police. So he called this all up and said, hey, 0:20:50.876 --> 0:20:52.916 do you mind if I release I'm sure, man, you 0:20:52.996 --> 0:20:55.276 paid us fifty quit it's your record, And so he 0:20:55.356 --> 0:20:59.196 released it under the name Police Academy. It's an interesting record. 0:20:59.356 --> 0:21:02.116 You hear the same three guys what they sounded like 0:21:02.276 --> 0:21:04.956 an album or two later. You know, the material is 0:21:04.956 --> 0:21:07.036 not that great, but the playing sure is. 0:21:07.636 --> 0:21:10.236 So did Andy ever say why he joined the band? 0:21:11.236 --> 0:21:14.276 I asked him. He said, like I said, I don't know, 0:21:14.636 --> 0:21:18.076 what were you thinking? And I asked myself as well, 0:21:18.596 --> 0:21:21.356 how was I able to hold on to Sting in 0:21:21.356 --> 0:21:24.036 that world? I just we knew, you know, from the 0:21:24.036 --> 0:21:27.236 first time we played together. You know, he came down 0:21:27.276 --> 0:21:29.516 to London. He called me from a phone booth on 0:21:29.556 --> 0:21:32.756 the street outside my apartment and he came on up. 0:21:32.796 --> 0:21:34.716 We just plugged in and started playing and that was 0:21:34.796 --> 0:21:38.276