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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Drummer and composer Stuart Copeland has one of the more

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Speaker 2: fascinating bios in modern music. His father was a founding

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Speaker 2: member of the CIA, and his mom worked in British intelligence.

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Speaker 2: He grew up the youngest of four kids, living for

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Speaker 2: a time in the hills outside of Beirut before attending

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Speaker 2: boarding schools in England. After playing in the successful UK

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Speaker 2: prog rock band Curved Air in the mid seventies, Stuart

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Speaker 2: started a new band called The Police with bassist and

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Speaker 2: lead singer Sting and eventually guitarist Andy Summers. Over the

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Speaker 2: next decade, the Police would go on to become one

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Speaker 2: of the top selling rock bands of all time, selling

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Speaker 2: over seventy five million records. Last year, Stuart released the

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Speaker 2: book Stuart Copeland's Police Diaries, which includes his personal notes

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Speaker 2: dating back to the band's formation in nineteen seventy six

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Speaker 2: through seventy eight, when they started to take off. On

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Speaker 2: today's episode, Bruce Heln talks to Stuart Copeland about the

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Speaker 2: first time he saw Sting play and how he was

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Speaker 2: able to successfully lure him into his then non existent band.

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Speaker 2: Stuart also explains why he and Sting eventually had a

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Speaker 2: musical falling out, and how the Arabic rhythms he heard

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Speaker 2: growing up in Lebanon influenced his highly lauded drumming style.

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Speaker 2: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age.

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Speaker 2: I'm justin Mitchman. Here's Bruce Heln's conversation with Stuart Copeland.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for doing this. You're always

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Speaker 3: doing something. One of the latest things you've done is

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Speaker 3: Stuart Copeland's Police Diaries, and I'd like to start by

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Speaker 3: talking about that. It's this incredible chronicle of three years

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Speaker 3: in the seventies.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the years of the CUSP.

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Speaker 3: How did the book come about? What was it like

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Speaker 3: doing it?

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Speaker 1: Well, I had the diaries already, sort of like when

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Speaker 1: I made my film. I had the film already that

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Speaker 1: was sitting in shoe boxes until they invented computers where

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Speaker 1: I could digitize them all. The books was not the

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Speaker 1: same problem. But I've got these diaries sitting in a

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Speaker 1: drawer over there, and they're tiny little books, so they

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Speaker 1: don't take up too much space. I still got them,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not quite sure where the idea came from

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Speaker 1: to turn them into kind of more like a scrapbook

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Speaker 1: than a book book. But looking at these notes, how

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Speaker 1: much we got paid, what clubs we played, just the

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Speaker 1: statistics of the day got me thinking and philosophizing. So

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Speaker 1: I ended up writing a lot of modern commentary to

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Speaker 1: go with those historical notes.

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Speaker 3: But they're precisely the right kind of diaries that most

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Speaker 3: people don't keep. People often write about their feelings, which

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Speaker 3: you don't care about twenty years later, but you want

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Speaker 3: to know how much you got paid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I got both of those diaries. I've got my

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Speaker 1: secret innermost thoughts, which are not pretty. I could only

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Speaker 1: stand to look at them forty years later, and they

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Speaker 1: take on a and comedic element forty years later. But

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Speaker 1: it's all my secret, grandiose schemes, gloating over this grievance,

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Speaker 1: nurturing you know, I don't need these guys. I had

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Speaker 1: a hit with Clark Kent, but while the police was

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Speaker 1: still starving and going nowhere, out of the blue, I

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Speaker 1: recorded some songs my gosh darn self, and by some miracle,

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Speaker 1: BBC Radio One picked it up, put it on the playlist,

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Speaker 1: and there I am, under the name of Clark Kent,

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Speaker 1: having a hit. And I can say, looking at what

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Speaker 1: my thinking was at the time, I don't need these

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Speaker 1: guys that Clark Kent disappeared in the nick of time.

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Speaker 3: But they were very game. They appeared with you on

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Speaker 3: top of the pops Sting and Andy Summers.

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Speaker 1: Sting was very supportive. Of course, we know why because

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Speaker 1: he was in the process of taking over the Police,

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Speaker 1: and that just made his job a lot easier to

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Speaker 1: keep me busy and distracted with Clark Kent and my

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Speaker 1: dumb song. Okay, there's where you could take your dumb songs. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the Police's mine. And by the way, that was good

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Speaker 1: news for me. Weirdly, actually not weirdly at all. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's a logic to it that at a certain point

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Speaker 1: I can see the setlists at a certain point, they're

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Speaker 1: in his handwriting, and you could see his maneuvering to

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Speaker 1: take over the band. And nothing could have made me

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Speaker 1: happier because my thought at the time was keeping him

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Speaker 1: in the band, and to the extent that he took

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Speaker 1: an interest in the band was the extent that I

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Speaker 1: could feel secure in keeping him in the band. So

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Speaker 1: I was real happy when he took on leadership position,

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Speaker 1: when he took the initiative, when he stepped forward, even

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Speaker 1: when it was my band, and he was doing it

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Speaker 1: kind of because I pushed him into it. As soon

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Speaker 1: as we walked on stage. He was in charge, he

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Speaker 1: was on the mic. He would take no prisoners. If

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Speaker 1: he's walking on stage, it is his sacred duty to

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Speaker 1: burn the house down. And so that was always fine

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Speaker 1: on stage, but off stage, everybody London was whispering in

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Speaker 1: his ear. And so as he asserted himself more and more,

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Speaker 1: I felt more and more secure that the band would survive.

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Speaker 3: And you didn't have insecurity about the writing because you'd

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Speaker 3: written so many songs.

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Speaker 1: No, not at all, because his songs every time he

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Speaker 1: brought one in was an upgrade. Wow, let's play that.

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Speaker 1: And my songs were pretty much not because I had

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Speaker 1: an achy breaky heart and needed to unload my feelings

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Speaker 1: upon the world. No, they were just songs of utility,

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Speaker 1: something we could play in those punk clubs, you know,

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Speaker 1: basslines with the yelling to fill the punk brief. And

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Speaker 1: so I didn't have any thoughts of myself as a songwriter.

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Speaker 1: So when he brought songs in, I was always very happy.

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Speaker 1: They were always an upgrade.

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Speaker 3: Looking back now, though you didn't think of yourself as

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Speaker 3: a songwriter then you've written just a staggering amount of music.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but not so much songs. I've had success in

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Speaker 1: almost every known form of music up for songs. You know.

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Speaker 1: My first success, I suppose on my own, was with

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Speaker 1: a song Don't Care, under the name of Clark Kent,

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Speaker 1: and that was pretty much it for my songwriting. Then

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Speaker 1: with film, composing, with opera, with symphonic works, in every

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Speaker 1: other known form of music, ethnic stuff, global stuff, and

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Speaker 1: so on. I've had a heck of a party. That

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Speaker 1: song thing not my strongest suit.

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Speaker 3: I guess that's an interesting question. What makes either a

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Speaker 3: good song or a good song writer?

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Speaker 1: Then, well, giving a darn about the lyrics? For one,

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Speaker 1: me in the car, driving along, slapping the steering wheel.

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Speaker 1: It's the baseline, it's the riff, it's the drums. Somebody's

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Speaker 1: singing something somewhere, but I never paid attention. I never

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Speaker 1: sang in the shower, I never sing in the car.

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Speaker 1: I'm not so much of a song I don't. I

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Speaker 1: listened to the musical textures. That's what catches my ear,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, that goes for police songs too.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what the hell he was singing about,

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Speaker 1: you know, all I ever saw was the back of

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Speaker 1: his head, preferably, and I don't know what he was

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Speaker 1: thinking about. And it wasn't until I did my Police

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Speaker 1: Deranged for Orchestra that I took those songs and I

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Speaker 1: had to analyze them and orchestrate them and figure out

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Speaker 1: the vocal harmonies for my three singers and so on,

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Speaker 1: that I realized, Damn, those lyrics are pretty smart. Damn

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Speaker 1: should have paid attention. At the time, I was just

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Speaker 1: banging shit. I didn't need to pay attention. That was

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Speaker 1: his gig. It wasn't until years later that I discovered

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Speaker 1: and don't tell him I said this, that guy's kind

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Speaker 1: of a genius with the words.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. One thing I loved about the book is it

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Speaker 3: does go from the sort of slow death of your

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Speaker 3: band Curved Air, through the birth of the Police. But

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Speaker 3: it's really also this document about what happened when punk

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Speaker 3: rock hit. Yes, because you were a little older, you

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Speaker 3: weren't punk rock wasn't your first go at the music business?

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Speaker 3: What did it feel like in London? Then?

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Speaker 1: Very exciting because for the likes of Stingo and I,

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Speaker 1: who were born in the fifties early fifties, we were

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Speaker 1: too young to be hit. The hippie thing had come

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Speaker 1: and gone. If we could feel the entropy of that world,

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Speaker 1: the prog world, and this new thing. We were older

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Speaker 1: than the Damned and the Clash and the pistols, you know,

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Speaker 1: and we'd been professionals. We actually knew how to play

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Speaker 1: our instruments and were professional musicians. Where a lot of

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Speaker 1: the charm of punk was the naivete and the Clash

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Speaker 1: were the These knives who knew three chords but had

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Speaker 1: great attitude, great look and just instinctively were great musicians

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Speaker 1: without a lot of musical vocabulary, and that kind of

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Speaker 1: distilled the excitement of that punk sound. But we knew better,

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Speaker 1: we knew more. We had a larger musical vocabulary in

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Speaker 1: which we had to hide at first, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until we started unhiding that musicality. Like when Andy joined,

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Speaker 1: we couldn't hide it anymore. And that's when Stings started

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Speaker 1: writing the big songs, and we just had to live

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Speaker 1: up to the fact that we actually knew one or

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Speaker 1: two things about music. But that cusp to which you

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Speaker 1: were was an interesting time. Think. In nineteen seventy six

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Speaker 1: there was an oil crisis which raised the price of

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Speaker 1: vinyl drastically that was the talk at the time. Suddenly

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Speaker 1: records became Suddenly the music industry had the stuffing knocked

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Speaker 1: out of it by supply chain issues kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: and also just the feeling that everyone had seen it done.

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Speaker 1: It had all been seen and done where it needs

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Speaker 1: something new, folks. And then one of the sex pistols

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Speaker 1: I think is either Paul Cook or Jonesy said fuck

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Speaker 1: on National TV and a whole new world opened up.

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Speaker 3: Was it at all threatening to you as someone who

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Speaker 3: loved music and valued music. Your two bandmates are both

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Speaker 3: excellent musicians, and suddenly the airwaves are dominated by people

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Speaker 3: who can't really play well.

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Speaker 1: Actually know, the airwaves were not dominated because the BBC

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Speaker 1: didn't play them. They were still playing old wave, they

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Speaker 1: were still playing progue, well not even prog, they were

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Speaker 1: playing pop music. And what was so appealing about the

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Speaker 1: punk scene was that it didn't rely on you know,

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Speaker 1: radio play. It was word of mouth, it was the fanzines,

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Speaker 1: it was just the scene being on the scene. You

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Speaker 1: could do it your damn self. And he didn't need

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Speaker 1: a record company. And one of the things I noticed

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Speaker 1: reading my diaries when I went from a prog band,

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Speaker 1: which was you know, it had been successful long before

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Speaker 1: my time. I was the last rat to jump aboard

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Speaker 1: the sinking ship. But it was playing big places for

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Speaker 1: good money. We had a road crew, we had a

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Speaker 1: special car for you know, we were living high on

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Speaker 1: the hog, on the dregs of the prog rock industry.

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Speaker 1: I never see any complaint going from three roadies in

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Speaker 1: a fancy car to no roadies and we're riding down

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Speaker 1: in a truck and literally we played Torquy. We slept

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Speaker 1: in a farm shed like Jesus in a manger, But

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Speaker 1: not any complaint. It was because this is my band

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Speaker 1: and it was doing We're doing it for ourselves. You know,

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Speaker 1: we get paid thirty quid. It would go into our

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Speaker 1: pockets right away rather than getting sucked up by the machine.

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Speaker 1: And so even though we were on much reduced circumstances,

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Speaker 1: just the feeling that we were in charge of our

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Speaker 1: destiny made up for that. But you know, the old

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Speaker 1: scene was going out and the new scene was the

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Speaker 1: new wave was coming in, and we would be on

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Speaker 1: the front of that way rather than swirling in the

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Speaker 1: SuDS on the back side. But then down in those

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Speaker 1: punk clubs, it was all going on. It was exciting

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Speaker 1: and we could be boss of it. And when Sting

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Speaker 1: and I went down to the Roxy Club first open,

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Speaker 1: we looked around at all the minnows, which as sharks

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Speaker 1: we could consume.

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Speaker 3: Did you always feel the band had a destiny?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh absolutely. I think I'm pretty sure that every

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Speaker 1: band thinks that world domination is their rightful destiny.

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Speaker 3: Did anything surprise you going through the diaries, Well.

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Speaker 1: A few things. One was how much of a slog

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Speaker 1: it was, I mean, looking through these pages, here, wake up,

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Speaker 1: you know, go down to Ealing, pick up the truck,

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Speaker 1: drive the truck over to the other end of London,

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Speaker 1: pick up the gear, drive over to pick up Andy,

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Speaker 1: drive to the rehearsal. Rehearsal all day, try and book

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Speaker 1: some dates, drop the gear off that you know, just endless,

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Speaker 1: endless hustle. Then hoover the apartment. Then have an Indian meal.

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Speaker 1: Every Indian meal is carefully documented, which is kind of interesting.

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Speaker 1: But the largest thing that surprised me looking back with

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Speaker 1: all that struggle and toil was that we didn't have songs. Remembering,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have rock sand, we didn't have a message

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Speaker 1: in a bottle, we didn't have every breath you take.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have anything but dead end job, these dumb

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Speaker 1: songs that I had written, so we knew that we

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Speaker 1: were in the right musical company. We're playing with the

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Speaker 1: right players. This is the band. Even though we didn't

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Speaker 1: have those brilliant songs. We had crap songs, but just

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Speaker 1: the musicianship of our partners in crime, that's what kept

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Speaker 1: us together. And then one day we ran into Andy

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Speaker 1: Summers and Sting's ears pricked up and he started writing

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Speaker 1: those songs, which I'll have to ask him about this,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you'll have to ask him about this,

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Speaker 1: But I don't think he had much of an inkling

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Speaker 1: himself that he could write those hits, because he saw

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Speaker 1: himself as a jazz musician, which is kind of the

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Speaker 1: antithesis of pop songs. So I think he was just

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Speaker 1: as surprised as us that he just had this knack.

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Speaker 1: He just, you know, he what he learned from punk,

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Speaker 1: which was the distillation of the musical material into verse chorus,

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Speaker 1: verse chorus, bridge, verse chorus out done very simple formula

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Speaker 1: from the Beatles, you know, through all pop music. And

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Speaker 1: I think that distillation, combined with Andy's expanded harmonic musical vocabulary.

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Speaker 1: That's when nuclear fusion happened.

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Speaker 3: Was there a moment where you saw that. Was there

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Speaker 3: one song that you thought, wait a second, this could

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Speaker 3: be it?

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Speaker 1: There were moments and songs. Born in the fifties was

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Speaker 1: the first song he brought in, well, not even one

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Speaker 1: of his big ones, but it was such a cool song,

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Speaker 1: thinking yeah, let's play. But it didn't dawn on me

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Speaker 1: that somebody else was writing songs. I just never crossed

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Speaker 1: my mind. That's a cool song. Let's play. It can't

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Speaker 1: stand Losing You was the first one, or maybe Roxane

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Speaker 1: was the first sort of reggae ish one that we attempted,

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Speaker 1: and it worked out really well that we really were

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Speaker 1: very pleased with ourselves. Well this is darn clever. This

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Speaker 1: will bring world domination within our grasp, and we loved it.

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Speaker 1: But the more inspiring moments were moments rather than songs,

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Speaker 1: and for instance, one of those would be when we

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Speaker 1: went to Germany. There's the whole Andy the Courtship of

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Speaker 1: Andy Summers part of the book. But he joined canned

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Speaker 1: all of his other gigs, but he had one gig

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Speaker 1: left over in Germany. There was this German composer called

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Speaker 1: Eberhart Schener, who had this multi media show involving lasers,

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Speaker 1: ballet dancing, a jazz saxophonist, all these different elements, and

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Speaker 1: Andy Summers and and got me the job. Say any night,

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Speaker 1: go over to Germany. And we convinced that this is

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Speaker 1: a great show. What you need just one last element,

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Speaker 1: you need punk band. And we got this bass player

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Speaker 1: over in London, so we brought the bass player over.

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Speaker 1: So we're all rehearsing for this show. And one night

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Speaker 1: I think it was actually live on stage because we

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Speaker 1: were unrehearsed and we you know a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: We didn't know what was supposed to happen next. And

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Speaker 1: one of the elements was jazz singer Lady and she

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Speaker 1: was sort of the Shah day of her day and

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Speaker 1: sang flat and liked it that way. You know, she

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Speaker 1: had the one shoulder down the jazz attitude and sneered

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Speaker 1: at us punk rockers. And one day she made the

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Speaker 1: mistake of walking away from the microphone, and young Stingo

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Speaker 1: walks up to the microphone and starts this keening wailing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe it, just yodeling. Anybody

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Speaker 1: whoever came to a police show knows exactly what I'm

294
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Speaker 1: talking about. You know, when Sting goes off, he just

295
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Speaker 1: starts some repetitive vocalization combined with the bassline that we'd

296
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Speaker 1: never heard before. Then he just goes off and it

297
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Speaker 1: comes to him and every heart is broken. The birds

298
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Speaker 1: stop their song just like Andy and Iron. The shadows

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Speaker 1: next him, going holy gopher fuck, where did that come from?

300
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Speaker 1: And he just like he takes flight right there in

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Speaker 1: front of us, and we're going, Jesus Christ. We'd only

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Speaker 1: ever heard him yelling, you know, because that was his

303
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Speaker 1: brief in the punk band. But to just hear him

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Speaker 1: soaring with that kind of melodic invention, None of that

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Speaker 1: would have been allowed in London. We would have been

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Speaker 1: torn apart by the New Musical Express and by Melody

307
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Speaker 1: Maker and so on for such musicality. And our next

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Speaker 1: time was when we went over to America, where people

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Speaker 1: didn't know any better. They didn't know that it was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be crap music only is allowed, and so

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Speaker 1: we would stretch our scant material into three sets, which

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Speaker 1: involved a lot of jamming and improvisation, and that again

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Speaker 1: is where we discovered each other. Damn that Andy's got

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Speaker 1: some chops on him. You know, I'd only ever heard

315
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Speaker 1: him god, you know, but now he's playing with all

316
00:17:09,436 --> 00:17:11,956
Speaker 1: that virtuositic you know, that stuff he can do with

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Speaker 1: his fingers, arpeggiated things, these sound clouds and so on,

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Speaker 1: and so we kind of discovered ourselves at these crucial moments.

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Speaker 3: Is that when you really heard that kind of police

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Speaker 3: sound for the first time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was when Stings got licensed to actually sing,

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Speaker 1: and when Andy he had another factor, which is that

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Speaker 1: his gear was I think he had a music Man amp,

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Speaker 1: which is a very clean amplifier, perfect for air conditioned

325
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Speaker 1: studio session recording, but not to move air at a

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Speaker 1: punk club. But he developed his pedals, his effects into

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Speaker 1: a manageable, portable foot board. We called it the fred

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Speaker 1: Astaire with all of his effects and gismatronics, his delay

329
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Speaker 1: lines and echo n and he developed this style of

330
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Speaker 1: guitar playing which was not about wiggling his fingers but

331
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Speaker 1: about creating a soundscape song as like walking on the Moon.

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Speaker 1: There's no Fiddley Eric Clapton on there. It's just an

333
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Speaker 1: entire orchestral world of sound that Andy started creating. So

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Speaker 1: the discovery of Stings singing and his songwriting and Andy's

335
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Speaker 1: huge sound vocabulary as well as harmonic vocabulary. That's when

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Speaker 1: the police sound began to emerge.

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Speaker 3: Now you're this guy that doesn't like jazz or didn't like.

338
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Speaker 1: That I'm I'm just at the back of the stage

339
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Speaker 1: banging shit.

340
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Speaker 3: But suddenly you've got a jazz bass player, and you've

341
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Speaker 3: got Andy who loves using chord extensions and you know,

342
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Speaker 3: sharp thirteenths and he'll take the third out of the

343
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Speaker 3: chord to create all this. Were you thinking, this isn't

344
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Speaker 3: why I got in this or did you just love

345
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Speaker 3: the effect?

346
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Speaker 1: No, it was why I got into it, because somewhere

347
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Speaker 1: beneath the machiavellian game plan of a punk band to

348
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Speaker 1: play in the punk scene, there was still this inner, deeper,

349
00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:12,276
Speaker 1: lurking musicality that could not be suppressed, which just woke

350
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Speaker 1: up to that cool shit that Andy and Sting were

351
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Speaker 1: coming up with. And in fact, I saw that moment

352
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Speaker 1: with Sting driving home from our first session with Andy,

353
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Speaker 1: where we were the hired rhythm section on someone else's

354
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Speaker 1: album and Andy was the hired guitar player. That's where

355
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Speaker 1: we met Andy. Andy walks in the room. We'd all

356
00:19:28,356 --> 00:19:31,076
Speaker 1: heard about him by reputation. Wow, you know we got

357
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Speaker 1: this is some big brass we got going here. And

358
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Speaker 1: we just spent a day playing actual music. It wasn't

359
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Speaker 1: hit music, but it was real music, and we just

360
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Speaker 1: felt so fulfilled. And driving home that night, Stingo is

361
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Speaker 1: seething and he's just saying, Man, I love Henry, our guitarist,

362
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Speaker 1: who only knew three chords. We could play them really well.

363
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Speaker 1: I had the vibe, he had the right shades and

364
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Speaker 1: the upturned leather jacket collar and everything. He was perfect.

365
00:19:54,476 --> 00:19:56,836
Speaker 1: In fact, he was the nearly genuine punk in the band.

366
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Speaker 1: But that musicality thing is things is just going gosh,

367
00:20:00,276 --> 00:20:02,316
Speaker 1: you know, music got it forgotten? What is like to

368
00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:04,676
Speaker 1: be playing music? We got to get you know, that

369
00:20:04,716 --> 00:20:07,276
Speaker 1: guy in the band. I'm saying, dude, we can't afford him.

370
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Speaker 1: There's no way. Why would he he joined. You know,

371
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Speaker 1: even if he says he's going to join, they'll quit

372
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Speaker 1: a week later when he sees the shit we have

373
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Speaker 1: to put up with. And this thing is going. God,

374
00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:19,276
Speaker 1: you know, you're a better guitar player than Henry Pottervani

375
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Speaker 1: and your crap. And I think, really, God, out of

376
00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:27,076
Speaker 1: the blue, this unexpected Accolade, and then over the next

377
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Speaker 1: few weeks this dance began where you know, we're sort

378
00:20:30,436 --> 00:20:32,556
Speaker 1: of in touch. You know that Mike Hollett, a guy

379
00:20:32,636 --> 00:20:34,516
Speaker 1: played in a band called Gong, which I'm sure no

380
00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:37,316
Speaker 1: one in America has heard of, big in Europe, and

381
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Speaker 1: it was his solo album. He was a bass player.

382
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Speaker 1: Why did he want a bass player? God only knows. Anyhow,

383
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Speaker 1: he woke up twenty years later saying, my gosh, my

384
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Speaker 1: solo album that I made twenty years ago. The band

385
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Speaker 1: is the Police. So he called this all up and said, hey,

386
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Speaker 1: do you mind if I release I'm sure, man, you

387
00:20:52,996 --> 00:20:55,276
Speaker 1: paid us fifty quit it's your record, And so he

388
00:20:55,356 --> 00:20:59,196
Speaker 1: released it under the name Police Academy. It's an interesting record.

389
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Speaker 1: You hear the same three guys what they sounded like

390
00:21:02,276 --> 00:21:04,956
Speaker 1: an album or two later. You know, the material is

391
00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:07,036
Speaker 1: not that great, but the playing sure is.

392
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Speaker 3: So did Andy ever say why he joined the band?

393
00:21:11,236 --> 00:21:14,276
Speaker 1: I asked him. He said, like I said, I don't know,

394
00:21:14,636 --> 00:21:18,076
Speaker 1: what were you thinking? And I asked myself as well,

395
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Speaker 1: how was I able to hold on to Sting in

396
00:21:21,356 --> 00:21:24,036
Speaker 1: that world? I just we knew, you know, from the

397
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Speaker 1: first time we played together. You know, he came down

398
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Speaker 1: to London. He called me from a phone booth on

399
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Speaker 1: the street outside my apartment and he came on up.

400
00:21:32,796 --> 00:21:34,716
Speaker 1: We just plugged in and started playing and that was

401
00:21:34,796 --> 00:21:38,276
Speaker 1: the rest is history. We just knew that this is

402
00:21:38,876 --> 00:21:40,316
Speaker 1: the right musical company.

403
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Speaker 3: What's that first session?

404
00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:41,676
Speaker 1: Like?

405
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Speaker 3: What happened?

406
00:21:43,076 --> 00:21:46,076
Speaker 1: Well? I saw him up in Newcastle. I was playing

407
00:21:46,076 --> 00:21:48,436
Speaker 1: with the old with curved air and my prog rock

408
00:21:48,516 --> 00:21:51,396
Speaker 1: band with long hair and flouncy clothes. On a night

409
00:21:51,476 --> 00:21:54,356
Speaker 1: off in Newcastle, the local journalist Bill Suckcliffe took us

410
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Speaker 1: to see the local hero band, kind of a jazz band,

411
00:21:57,796 --> 00:22:00,476
Speaker 1: sort of not that too distant from Return to Forever

412
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Speaker 1: or something like that, these kind of progressive jazz crossover

413
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Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I wasn't didn't that much care

414
00:22:07,676 --> 00:22:10,316
Speaker 1: for the music. But the bass player could play bass

415
00:22:10,316 --> 00:22:12,156
Speaker 1: and sing. And I was looking for either guitarists who

416
00:22:12,196 --> 00:22:13,796
Speaker 1: could sing or a bass player who could sing one

417
00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:16,516
Speaker 1: of it because I can't I'm breathing too hard banging

418
00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:19,036
Speaker 1: on drums. And I could see, Yeah, he can sing

419
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Speaker 1: and play bass. That's cool. And look behind him, Yep,

420
00:22:21,636 --> 00:22:24,156
Speaker 1: that's a nice big old Fender basement amp he's got there,

421
00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:27,076
Speaker 1: So he's got an amp, too cool, But that wasn't

422
00:22:27,076 --> 00:22:31,636
Speaker 1: what really did it. What really did it for me

423
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Speaker 1: was that golden ray of celestial light coming down from

424
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Speaker 1: the heavens, alighting upon his magnificent brow. And I looked

425
00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:44,276
Speaker 1: up there at that guy on stage with his pretty

426
00:22:44,276 --> 00:22:47,036
Speaker 1: serviceable amp can sing and play bass, and saw that

427
00:22:47,356 --> 00:22:48,156
Speaker 1: is a meal ticket.

428
00:22:48,716 --> 00:22:51,756
Speaker 3: But you still you had to have that moment where

429
00:22:51,796 --> 00:22:53,396
Speaker 3: you played together for the first time.

430
00:22:53,596 --> 00:22:57,196
Speaker 1: Oh yes, So I call up the journalist Phil Suckliffe

431
00:22:57,196 --> 00:23:00,036
Speaker 1: and I say that bass player Sting, we were introduced,

432
00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:01,956
Speaker 1: but he was staring off into space. I don't know

433
00:23:01,956 --> 00:23:03,916
Speaker 1: if he even saw me. I mean, you know, we

434
00:23:03,956 --> 00:23:07,556
Speaker 1: can say about Stingo that success never changed him. You know,

435
00:23:07,836 --> 00:23:11,596
Speaker 1: he was the lion king from birth. But I sure

436
00:23:11,676 --> 00:23:14,636
Speaker 1: saw him. Anyways, I call up the journalists and say,

437
00:23:14,676 --> 00:23:16,076
Speaker 1: you know, I'm telling him, I got the scene going

438
00:23:16,116 --> 00:23:17,996
Speaker 1: on in London. It's all going great and with this

439
00:23:18,076 --> 00:23:20,716
Speaker 1: whole punk thing, London is explaining and right there the

440
00:23:20,756 --> 00:23:26,476
Speaker 1: temperature drops thirty degrees Punk because you see, in those days,

441
00:23:26,716 --> 00:23:28,956
Speaker 1: Punk was the barbarians at the gates. They were the

442
00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:32,516
Speaker 1: enemy of all that is decent. They were, as you say,

443
00:23:32,716 --> 00:23:38,396
Speaker 1: tearing down all known values of art, creativity and musicality.

444
00:23:38,716 --> 00:23:41,516
Speaker 1: They were the enemy. And here as I talking about

445
00:23:41,916 --> 00:23:45,716
Speaker 1: yanking the star from their local hero band down to

446
00:23:45,756 --> 00:23:48,436
Speaker 1: London to play punk and he refused to give me

447
00:23:48,476 --> 00:23:52,956
Speaker 1: his number. Oh man, So I hung up, and I'm

448
00:23:53,116 --> 00:23:55,156
Speaker 1: a little disappointed. I'm walking around and then I came

449
00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:57,836
Speaker 1: up with a much better idea much more persuasive argument

450
00:23:57,876 --> 00:23:59,436
Speaker 1: to tell Phil, and I called him back and the

451
00:23:59,556 --> 00:24:03,076
Speaker 1: argument went along the lines of give me his fucking number, asshole.

452
00:24:03,596 --> 00:24:06,236
Speaker 1: And I called him back with this winning argument, but

453
00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:11,036
Speaker 1: he didn't pick up. His girlfriend did, and she says, oh, hello,

454
00:24:11,956 --> 00:24:13,396
Speaker 1: is there anything I can do? And I said, well,

455
00:24:13,396 --> 00:24:16,156
Speaker 1: you know that bass player sting guy I was looking

456
00:24:16,316 --> 00:24:18,636
Speaker 1: trying to get his number. Yeah, hang on a tick

457
00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:21,276
Speaker 1: and she goes off to get his phone book and okay,

458
00:24:21,356 --> 00:24:24,116
Speaker 1: here it is seven three to two four nine one

459
00:24:24,276 --> 00:24:28,756
Speaker 1: eight five three four, And one minute later, I'm on

460
00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:31,876
Speaker 1: the phone and that gravelly voice with which we are

461
00:24:31,956 --> 00:24:37,516
Speaker 1: so familiar these days is saying these fateful words. Keep talking,

462
00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:40,956
Speaker 1: And that was an answer to my question to him. Look,

463
00:24:40,996 --> 00:24:43,636
Speaker 1: I'm calling from London. Phil Suckcliffe gave me your number,

464
00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:46,996
Speaker 1: and I've got this thing going on, and it only

465
00:24:47,036 --> 00:24:51,596
Speaker 1: involves you, not your band, to which he responded, keep talking.

466
00:24:52,316 --> 00:24:56,116
Speaker 1: And right there I knew that he was a free agent. Yes, yes, okay,

467
00:24:56,756 --> 00:25:00,716
Speaker 1: and I subjected him to my torrent of grandiose schemes

468
00:25:00,756 --> 00:25:04,436
Speaker 1: and convincing certitude that we're going to be I got

469
00:25:04,476 --> 00:25:06,156
Speaker 1: it all going on. I got a scene down here,

470
00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:08,556
Speaker 1: I got connections, and he wanted to move down to

471
00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:11,156
Speaker 1: the big city. He'd outgrown Newcastle and this is the

472
00:25:11,196 --> 00:25:14,076
Speaker 1: only person he knew in London who was offering him something.

473
00:25:14,156 --> 00:25:17,236
Speaker 1: So he said, okay, I got your number. I'll give

474
00:25:17,236 --> 00:25:20,916
Speaker 1: you a call. Not long after, maybe two three weeks later,

475
00:25:21,396 --> 00:25:23,956
Speaker 1: I get a call and he's down on the street

476
00:25:23,996 --> 00:25:26,596
Speaker 1: outside my place, in a phone booth, and I said,

477
00:25:26,596 --> 00:25:29,516
Speaker 1: come on up, and he comes up, and I put

478
00:25:29,556 --> 00:25:32,516
Speaker 1: a bass into his hands and we let rip, and

479
00:25:32,716 --> 00:25:36,876
Speaker 1: we surge high to the stars. We dig deep to

480
00:25:36,956 --> 00:25:40,476
Speaker 1: the bowels of the earth. We pushed forward like an

481
00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:46,276
Speaker 1: invading army, We withdraw into poignant sensitivities, and it just

482
00:25:46,276 --> 00:25:48,436
Speaker 1: goes every which way, just like it was just the

483
00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:51,636
Speaker 1: most amazing afternoon of playing the most amazing music that

484
00:25:51,716 --> 00:25:55,236
Speaker 1: either of us had ever participated in. And okay, we

485
00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:57,156
Speaker 1: got a band. Here and I told him I do

486
00:25:57,236 --> 00:26:00,076
Speaker 1: have a guitarist. I had to find a guitarist to

487
00:26:00,116 --> 00:26:03,276
Speaker 1: make good on that promise, and so I introduced him

488
00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:07,116
Speaker 1: to Henry Pottervanni. Now Henry Pottervanni was a chum of mine,

489
00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:10,476
Speaker 1: recent chum of mine. He would recently become a bonafid

490
00:26:10,516 --> 00:26:12,916
Speaker 1: he punk by dropping acid and cutting his hair. And

491
00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:15,836
Speaker 1: I had to show him EA and D chords and

492
00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:19,036
Speaker 1: also G so that when we're in the bandroom and

493
00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:20,996
Speaker 1: I said okay, Henry, I said A, and then it

494
00:26:20,996 --> 00:26:22,756
Speaker 1: goes to D, he would know what the hell I

495
00:26:22,796 --> 00:26:25,516
Speaker 1: was talking about. Stings saw through that in a heartbeat,

496
00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:28,836
Speaker 1: and once again I'm amazed that he didn't fall for it,

497
00:26:28,876 --> 00:26:31,196
Speaker 1: but he put up with it, and that amazes me.

498
00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:33,276
Speaker 1: Almost half a century later.

499
00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:36,436
Speaker 2: After this quick break, we'll be back with more from

500
00:26:36,436 --> 00:26:43,756
Speaker 2: Bruce Headlam and Stuart Copeland. We're back with Bruce Headlam

501
00:26:43,796 --> 00:26:44,996
Speaker 2: and Stuart Copeland.

502
00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:47,556
Speaker 3: I think, like a lot of fans, I knew your

503
00:26:47,596 --> 00:26:51,476
Speaker 3: father was somehow involved in the CIA, not realizing that

504
00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:54,436
Speaker 3: your father was one of the founders of the CIA.

505
00:26:54,556 --> 00:26:56,516
Speaker 3: He was a legitimately big deal.

506
00:26:56,876 --> 00:26:58,556
Speaker 1: But a great jazz trumpeter too.

507
00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:02,476
Speaker 3: Also a great Jazz Trumpeter. Now you didn't know he

508
00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:04,916
Speaker 3: was in the CIA at that point, well, growing up,

509
00:27:05,356 --> 00:27:06,636
Speaker 3: not when I was growing.

510
00:27:06,436 --> 00:27:08,996
Speaker 1: Up, but when I was in college he wrote his

511
00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:11,836
Speaker 1: first book and there it was on the liner notes,

512
00:27:12,476 --> 00:27:17,516
Speaker 1: Dad Gosh, And the book came out during the time

513
00:27:17,716 --> 00:27:22,116
Speaker 1: of the Chilean crisis, when the CIA was involved in

514
00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:25,236
Speaker 1: very dirty stuff, and so the CIA was a bad

515
00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:28,796
Speaker 1: word at the time. But I understood what my father's

516
00:27:28,996 --> 00:27:31,996
Speaker 1: work in the Middle East was all about, which was

517
00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:35,036
Speaker 1: keeping the oil flowing to the West rather than north

518
00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:37,156
Speaker 1: to the Soviet Union, because there was a war going on.

519
00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:38,956
Speaker 1: There was a Cold War going on, and it was

520
00:27:38,996 --> 00:27:41,276
Speaker 1: critical for American interests, and my father was doing his

521
00:27:41,356 --> 00:27:46,076
Speaker 1: patriotic duty to manipulate local politics for the betterment of

522
00:27:46,156 --> 00:27:50,516
Speaker 1: the American economy, to feed our factories. And the Ruskies.

523
00:27:50,876 --> 00:27:53,756
Speaker 1: Their job was to tear down our systems, our relationships

524
00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:56,596
Speaker 1: with the Saudi Arabian oil fields and the Gulf States.

525
00:27:56,996 --> 00:27:59,116
Speaker 1: Their job was to shake it up and make it

526
00:27:59,196 --> 00:28:04,396
Speaker 1: unstable so as to foil our global dominance. So my

527
00:28:04,476 --> 00:28:08,076
Speaker 1: daddy played his part in those local politics. And as

528
00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:11,916
Speaker 1: an apologist for my father's work, I can say that

529
00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:15,636
Speaker 1: that world was run by monarchs or other forms of

530
00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:20,516
Speaker 1: dictator That was their political system, and for them democracy

531
00:28:20,916 --> 00:28:25,156
Speaker 1: was a very strange idea because of their tribal rivalries.

532
00:28:25,996 --> 00:28:29,556
Speaker 1: For them, democracy was exactly like two wolves in a

533
00:28:29,676 --> 00:28:32,836
Speaker 1: sheep voting on the dinner menu.

534
00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:38,236
Speaker 3: Now, your mother was in Was she in British intelligence?

535
00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:42,836
Speaker 1: Yes? During the war, not quite as sexy as the CIA.

536
00:28:44,356 --> 00:28:48,316
Speaker 1: She was at a desk in London analyzing train schedules,

537
00:28:49,036 --> 00:28:52,836
Speaker 1: radio and just basically figuring out where the British raf

538
00:28:52,916 --> 00:28:58,356
Speaker 1: should bomb, where the German resources were being transported to

539
00:28:58,476 --> 00:29:02,236
Speaker 1: and from, and so it's kind of desk work. But technically, yeah,

540
00:29:02,276 --> 00:29:03,996
Speaker 1: my mommy and daddy were both spies.

541
00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:07,196
Speaker 3: They sound like difficult parents to fool in case you

542
00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:08,636
Speaker 3: were trying to get away with anything.

543
00:29:09,796 --> 00:29:12,156
Speaker 1: Well, no, when I came along, I'm the fourth child,

544
00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:15,796
Speaker 1: and I now recognize the father of seven that by

545
00:29:15,796 --> 00:29:19,196
Speaker 1: the time you get to the fourth child, willful blindness

546
00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:22,116
Speaker 1: is an asset. I don't know if you have children,

547
00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:24,956
Speaker 1: any of your listeners who have children out there, there's

548
00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:27,396
Speaker 1: sometimes when you're just having a nice time and the

549
00:29:27,476 --> 00:29:31,636
Speaker 1: child does something bad and you've got to pull out

550
00:29:31,676 --> 00:29:34,356
Speaker 1: the daddy voice, and it's just gonna pop the bubble.

551
00:29:34,396 --> 00:29:36,436
Speaker 1: We were all having such a nice, cozy time. So

552
00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:40,316
Speaker 1: I think I will just somehow fail to observe that

553
00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:43,756
Speaker 1: transgression so that we can continue this evening in a

554
00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:47,956
Speaker 1: nice way. And I think I got away with stuff

555
00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:50,836
Speaker 1: because they were lazy, And also they fought. My older brother,

556
00:29:50,876 --> 00:29:52,796
Speaker 1: Ian was the black sheep of the family. He was

557
00:29:52,796 --> 00:29:55,836
Speaker 1: the motorcycle thief of the family, so they were worn

558
00:29:55,876 --> 00:29:58,716
Speaker 1: out by battling with him. And all I wanted was

559
00:29:58,756 --> 00:29:59,636
Speaker 1: just to be a good kid.

560
00:30:00,236 --> 00:30:02,796
Speaker 3: And I totally forgot. Your dad was good friends with

561
00:30:03,476 --> 00:30:06,636
Speaker 3: Kim Philby, one of the most famous of the Cambridge Five,

562
00:30:06,916 --> 00:30:09,436
Speaker 3: one of the most famous double agents of all time.

563
00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:12,516
Speaker 1: Yes, they were suspecting it, but they couldn't believe it.

564
00:30:13,116 --> 00:30:16,756
Speaker 1: His best friend. We were parallel families. They had kids

565
00:30:16,796 --> 00:30:20,836
Speaker 1: the same age as our family. Young Harry was my age.

566
00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:24,916
Speaker 1: We were chums and we would go on to archaeological sites.

567
00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:28,196
Speaker 1: We would go off into the desert to visit the

568
00:30:28,276 --> 00:30:32,236
Speaker 1: cract Chevalier Castle in Syria, or up to Tabarja Castle

569
00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:35,156
Speaker 1: on the coast, you know, up the Biblos. So it

570
00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:38,356
Speaker 1: blew his mind and broke his heart. When Kim Philby

571
00:30:38,476 --> 00:30:39,556
Speaker 1: was exposed.

572
00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:40,636
Speaker 3: Did he talk about it a lot.

573
00:30:41,436 --> 00:30:44,596
Speaker 1: No I read about it in his book. At the time,

574
00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:48,676
Speaker 1: it was very mysterious that Harry's dad just disappeared one night,

575
00:30:49,396 --> 00:30:51,916
Speaker 1: and for some reason, the grups were all in a

576
00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:54,396
Speaker 1: state of agitation. We didn't really understand what was going

577
00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:56,876
Speaker 1: on because we lived just outside of Beirut, in the

578
00:30:56,956 --> 00:31:00,996
Speaker 1: hills above Beyrout, and they were escaping attention just by

579
00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:04,196
Speaker 1: holding up in our place. And then it came out

580
00:31:04,276 --> 00:31:07,916
Speaker 1: that he had jumped on a Greek ship and defected

581
00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:10,796
Speaker 1: to Russia. And then I never saw him again. To

582
00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:12,636
Speaker 1: this day, I have not been able to find my

583
00:31:12,676 --> 00:31:15,556
Speaker 1: old friend. Harry Philby just vanished off the face of

584
00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:17,556
Speaker 1: the earth. I can't find him. If i'd google him,

585
00:31:17,556 --> 00:31:21,716
Speaker 1: I get the dad who was also h Philby, and

586
00:31:22,436 --> 00:31:26,076
Speaker 1: I'm sure we regarded as kind of a joke in

587
00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:30,316
Speaker 1: our family cia Daddy, but for them it was utterly devastating.

588
00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:33,236
Speaker 1: He was in a boarding school in England, kicked out.

589
00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:37,156
Speaker 1: Just the family was just trashed. I can hardly imagine

590
00:31:37,556 --> 00:31:39,676
Speaker 1: how devastating it was for his family.

591
00:31:39,836 --> 00:31:42,156
Speaker 3: And his family didn't join him. I think Eleanor went

592
00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:44,516
Speaker 3: over to Russia for a while, but they didn't actually

593
00:31:44,596 --> 00:31:44,996
Speaker 3: join him.

594
00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:48,556
Speaker 1: There. No, they didn't. One of the sons visited him

595
00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:52,156
Speaker 1: there eldest, who I didn't know that well, and he

596
00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:55,796
Speaker 1: was remarried. I don't know whether he had an affair

597
00:31:55,836 --> 00:31:59,716
Speaker 1: going on the side all the while, but he was

598
00:31:59,796 --> 00:32:02,236
Speaker 1: never reconciled with his wife, Eleanor, who was an American.

599
00:32:02,236 --> 00:32:07,956
Speaker 1: Actually she was quite fierce. It was Dad Philby, who

600
00:32:08,036 --> 00:32:12,476
Speaker 1: was the jovial boozer, who was the fun one. He

601
00:32:12,636 --> 00:32:15,276
Speaker 1: was the easier of the two parents. But as my

602
00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:17,396
Speaker 1: mother used to say, you can always tell the spy.

603
00:32:17,996 --> 00:32:20,596
Speaker 1: They're the one talking the most bullshit. They're just talking

604
00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:25,316
Speaker 1: about trivial bullshit stuff life of the party. Apparently drunk

605
00:32:25,356 --> 00:32:28,076
Speaker 1: all the time. Couldn't possibly be a spy. He has

606
00:32:28,196 --> 00:32:30,916
Speaker 1: nothing with gravitas going on in his head.

607
00:32:31,556 --> 00:32:34,996
Speaker 3: You mentioned the mother was the fierce one in your family.

608
00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:39,756
Speaker 3: You are a fierce character. We talked about how much No.

609
00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:42,636
Speaker 1: I was the good kid at the bottom. I was

610
00:32:42,876 --> 00:32:46,636
Speaker 1: the fourth of four, and like any youngest in any family,

611
00:32:46,636 --> 00:32:47,516
Speaker 1: I'm the cheerful one.

612
00:32:47,636 --> 00:32:52,396
Speaker 3: But you also have thrown yourselves at so many new projects.

613
00:32:52,476 --> 00:32:55,476
Speaker 3: You make a film, you wrote an opera, which.

614
00:32:56,156 --> 00:32:59,276
Speaker 1: Excuse me, I've written seven operas. Thank you.

615
00:32:59,716 --> 00:33:04,156
Speaker 3: Seven operas, ballets, you write an extraordinary amount of film music.

616
00:33:04,836 --> 00:33:06,876
Speaker 3: All these things you didn't know how to do when

617
00:33:06,876 --> 00:33:07,476
Speaker 3: you started.

618
00:33:08,076 --> 00:33:10,996
Speaker 1: Well, except that I had the wherewithal I had the

619
00:33:11,076 --> 00:33:15,076
Speaker 1: material to work with. I had the clay, which seventy

620
00:33:15,156 --> 00:33:18,476
Speaker 1: years of life gave me the experience to work up

621
00:33:18,476 --> 00:33:20,596
Speaker 1: the skills to go with that clay, to go with

622
00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:23,956
Speaker 1: that gift. And when I was in college, I studied

623
00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:25,916
Speaker 1: music theory and so on until I went to UC

624
00:33:26,116 --> 00:33:29,316
Speaker 1: Berkeley and couldn't get into the music department there, and

625
00:33:29,396 --> 00:33:31,796
Speaker 1: so I didn't learn that technique, you know, the advanced

626
00:33:31,956 --> 00:33:35,436
Speaker 1: technique of music theory, until years later. But that didn't matter.

627
00:33:35,516 --> 00:33:38,756
Speaker 1: I didn't need that music school education. I had the music.

628
00:33:39,196 --> 00:33:41,196
Speaker 1: I just had the instinct. That was a gift. God

629
00:33:41,276 --> 00:33:45,316
Speaker 1: knows from where, but I had that gift. And just

630
00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:47,236
Speaker 1: as a punchline to that story, I'm going back to

631
00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:50,956
Speaker 1: Juilliard to teach after years of learning on the job.

632
00:33:51,036 --> 00:33:53,756
Speaker 1: I suppose I was paid for most of my music education.

633
00:33:54,236 --> 00:33:56,356
Speaker 3: But you even say in your book you have to

634
00:33:56,436 --> 00:33:58,276
Speaker 3: be willing to throw yourself off the cliff.

635
00:33:58,636 --> 00:34:01,196
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it's much easier for me than it is

636
00:34:01,236 --> 00:34:04,716
Speaker 1: for that skiing hot dogger. When I throw myself off

637
00:34:04,716 --> 00:34:08,116
Speaker 1: the cliff. There are no hard rocks beneath me. If

638
00:34:08,156 --> 00:34:11,396
Speaker 1: I screw it up, it's only music. Nobody's gonna die,

639
00:34:11,516 --> 00:34:15,716
Speaker 1: nobody's even gonna experience pain except for the bandmates momentarily.

640
00:34:16,076 --> 00:34:18,836
Speaker 3: There are a lot of creative people who don't have

641
00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:23,076
Speaker 3: that attitude, though, for whom like taking on adventures like

642
00:34:23,116 --> 00:34:24,476
Speaker 3: that would be terrifying.

643
00:34:24,556 --> 00:34:27,316
Speaker 1: And I don't know that that's a matter of fear

644
00:34:27,476 --> 00:34:31,756
Speaker 1: as a failure of imagination. I do look askance at

645
00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:36,396
Speaker 1: my peers who just play guitar, or just play drums,

646
00:34:36,476 --> 00:34:39,556
Speaker 1: or just play bass, and that's their entire musical career

647
00:34:39,956 --> 00:34:44,836
Speaker 1: on one instrument. My God, got four strings on that bass,

648
00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:48,196
Speaker 1: you know. I can't even conceive of just sticking with

649
00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:50,876
Speaker 1: one instrument the way most of my peers do.

650
00:34:51,996 --> 00:34:53,716
Speaker 3: I do want to talk about your drum playing a

651
00:34:53,716 --> 00:34:58,156
Speaker 3: little because your dad encourage you to, or you started

652
00:34:58,196 --> 00:34:59,156
Speaker 3: on the trombone, right.

653
00:34:59,596 --> 00:35:02,836
Speaker 1: My first music, I guess, was on the piano. My

654
00:35:02,916 --> 00:35:05,796
Speaker 1: sister teaching me how to play piano and actually how

655
00:35:05,796 --> 00:35:10,076
Speaker 1: to read the dots and then try bone lessons. Because

656
00:35:10,116 --> 00:35:13,276
Speaker 1: trombone is a very easy brass instrument to play. Trumpet

657
00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:17,556
Speaker 1: takes an actual ombusure, whereas trombone with that huge mouthpiece.

658
00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:19,356
Speaker 1: Any damn fool can get a sound out of it,

659
00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:21,876
Speaker 1: but I couldn't. When I was seven, I couldn't reach

660
00:35:21,916 --> 00:35:25,356
Speaker 1: the extended positions. But it didn't last. As soon as

661
00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:29,476
Speaker 1: I discovered banging stuff, that just took over my life.

662
00:35:29,916 --> 00:35:33,196
Speaker 3: Could you bang stuff in a very distinctive way? Certainly

663
00:35:33,236 --> 00:35:36,556
Speaker 3: your stuff with the police was very distinctive. I recently,

664
00:35:36,676 --> 00:35:38,796
Speaker 3: when I was preparing for this, I just saw a

665
00:35:38,876 --> 00:35:42,476
Speaker 3: clip of you conducting and I thought it looked strange,

666
00:35:43,156 --> 00:35:45,636
Speaker 3: and then I realized something, you're left handed, which I

667
00:35:45,636 --> 00:35:46,116
Speaker 3: didn't know.

668
00:35:46,996 --> 00:35:47,596
Speaker 1: That's wrong.

669
00:35:47,956 --> 00:35:48,956
Speaker 3: You're not left handed.

670
00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:50,916
Speaker 1: It's right that I am left handed, but it's wrong

671
00:35:50,996 --> 00:35:53,516
Speaker 1: to be conducting with the left hand. And by the way,

672
00:35:53,796 --> 00:35:56,796
Speaker 1: using a drumstick as the baton, Well, that's so they

673
00:35:56,836 --> 00:35:57,836
Speaker 1: can see the damn thing.

674
00:35:57,876 --> 00:35:59,636
Speaker 3: Well, they seem to be able to follow you. That's

675
00:35:59,636 --> 00:36:00,516
Speaker 3: the important part.

676
00:36:00,836 --> 00:36:04,076
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, ye, Well, the rhythm's good. My conducting is

677
00:36:04,796 --> 00:36:07,796
Speaker 1: show business. I did not go to conducting school, but

678
00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:10,956
Speaker 1: I have a life time in show business and I

679
00:36:11,036 --> 00:36:13,236
Speaker 1: learned a lot there and I am actually in the

680
00:36:13,276 --> 00:36:18,236
Speaker 1: conducting school of Mickey Mouse. It's all about the show,

681
00:36:18,636 --> 00:36:20,156
Speaker 1: and I do the cues as well. I did take

682
00:36:20,196 --> 00:36:23,036
Speaker 1: a course in conducting, so I know the conductor's actual job,

683
00:36:23,396 --> 00:36:27,636
Speaker 1: which is pretty simple really in concept, but very difficult

684
00:36:27,716 --> 00:36:30,956
Speaker 1: in practice with really complicated music, which is that you

685
00:36:30,996 --> 00:36:33,036
Speaker 1: know there's something in you don't see much in rock

686
00:36:33,076 --> 00:36:36,036
Speaker 1: and roll, which is the word tacit, which is where

687
00:36:36,076 --> 00:36:39,356
Speaker 1: the flute player he's tacit, which means he doesn't play,

688
00:36:39,556 --> 00:36:43,636
Speaker 1: don't play for sixteen bars, thirty two bars, because in

689
00:36:43,796 --> 00:36:46,036
Speaker 1: orchestral you don't use all the instruments all the time.

690
00:36:46,076 --> 00:36:48,916
Speaker 1: In a rock band, guitarist, bassed, drums, you don't stop

691
00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:52,756
Speaker 1: if the bass player stops. It's a special effect. No,

692
00:36:52,796 --> 00:36:54,436
Speaker 1: you play from the beginning of the song through to

693
00:36:54,436 --> 00:36:56,476
Speaker 1: the end of the song. There's no such thing as tacit.

694
00:36:57,036 --> 00:37:01,076
Speaker 1: But in an orchestra, the bassoon is sitting down, he's

695
00:37:01,076 --> 00:37:03,516
Speaker 1: staring off into space for thirty two bars. He's not

696
00:37:03,636 --> 00:37:06,596
Speaker 1: counting thirty two bars as they go by. That's what

697
00:37:06,636 --> 00:37:10,076
Speaker 1: the conductor is for the conductors. All the parts. Okay,

698
00:37:10,116 --> 00:37:13,396
Speaker 1: mister bassoon, your part's coming up. It's coming okay now,

699
00:37:13,796 --> 00:37:16,436
Speaker 1: And so the bassoon can launch into his bar three

700
00:37:16,516 --> 00:37:20,476
Speaker 1: hundred and forty seven with confidence because he hasn't been

701
00:37:20,796 --> 00:37:24,716
Speaker 1: counting for thirty two bars. And so the conductor gives

702
00:37:24,756 --> 00:37:28,036
Speaker 1: the cues. He also gives the emotional attitude. And there's

703
00:37:28,036 --> 00:37:30,596
Speaker 1: all kinds of things that are not so discernible to

704
00:37:30,636 --> 00:37:34,076
Speaker 1: the audience which the conductor provides, and I provide all

705
00:37:34,116 --> 00:37:36,636
Speaker 1: those while putting on a show.

706
00:37:36,916 --> 00:37:39,996
Speaker 3: How did being left handed affect your drumming? Do you think?

707
00:37:40,916 --> 00:37:45,556
Speaker 1: Possibly? It gave me a slightly different vocabulary. I maintain

708
00:37:45,636 --> 00:37:48,596
Speaker 1: that on most instruments, both hands are working. Whether it's

709
00:37:48,596 --> 00:37:51,516
Speaker 1: the violin, you know, the right hand is doing the boeing,

710
00:37:51,596 --> 00:37:54,676
Speaker 1: but the left hand is doing some complicated stuff. Same

711
00:37:54,676 --> 00:37:58,156
Speaker 1: with the guitar or any any instrument, now maybe brass instruments,

712
00:37:58,356 --> 00:38:01,076
Speaker 1: the left hand is at your side while the three

713
00:38:01,196 --> 00:38:04,756
Speaker 1: fingers are doing all the work. As far as dexterity.

714
00:38:05,596 --> 00:38:08,716
Speaker 1: With drums, both hands and both feet are working. Doesn't

715
00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:11,116
Speaker 1: matter what you're left handed or right hand, it's you know,

716
00:38:11,796 --> 00:38:15,516
Speaker 1: it's all working. But perhaps left handedness, like with Ringo Starr,

717
00:38:15,556 --> 00:38:19,196
Speaker 1: for instance, just gave me a different approach to using

718
00:38:19,196 --> 00:38:22,436
Speaker 1: the instrument, navigating around the instrument, using the toms, the

719
00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:26,876
Speaker 1: high hat, my kit. Like Ringo is set up normal,

720
00:38:27,116 --> 00:38:29,756
Speaker 1: I right handed, the same way a right handed person

721
00:38:29,756 --> 00:38:33,756
Speaker 1: would play it, because it's very, very impractical to rearrange

722
00:38:33,796 --> 00:38:35,836
Speaker 1: the drums so the high hat is on the other side,

723
00:38:35,876 --> 00:38:38,196
Speaker 1: and it just means that you never get to jam

724
00:38:38,196 --> 00:38:41,036
Speaker 1: with the band because moving the drums around in that

725
00:38:41,076 --> 00:38:44,476
Speaker 1: way is utterly disruptive. So I tell all your listeners,

726
00:38:44,676 --> 00:38:47,196
Speaker 1: any left handed want to be drummers out there, play

727
00:38:47,236 --> 00:38:49,876
Speaker 1: a right handed kit. Don't be messing around with trying

728
00:38:49,916 --> 00:38:52,636
Speaker 1: to change the kit. Change yourself. And the same goes

729
00:38:52,676 --> 00:38:54,796
Speaker 1: with guitar. I think Jimmy Hendrix just turned the guitar

730
00:38:54,876 --> 00:38:57,276
Speaker 1: upside down, but it was a regular guitar. Make it

731
00:38:57,316 --> 00:39:01,116
Speaker 1: easy to play other people's instruments basically, So left handing

732
00:39:01,236 --> 00:39:04,436
Speaker 1: might have changed my vocabulary slightly, but I think actually

733
00:39:04,436 --> 00:39:06,796
Speaker 1: there were there were other factors. It was that Arabic influence.

734
00:39:06,836 --> 00:39:07,996
Speaker 1: I think it was a big part of it.

735
00:39:08,596 --> 00:39:11,556
Speaker 3: The Arabic influence being the beat you were using.

736
00:39:13,036 --> 00:39:17,916
Speaker 1: Yes, the rhythm, the fundamental rhythmic structure of Arabic music

737
00:39:18,036 --> 00:39:23,196
Speaker 1: balladi or country. Arabic music shares some features with reggae,

738
00:39:23,356 --> 00:39:25,396
Speaker 1: believe it or not. On the other side of the planet,

739
00:39:26,036 --> 00:39:30,916
Speaker 1: no cultural cross pollination. They're just coincidence that both forms

740
00:39:30,916 --> 00:39:34,236
Speaker 1: of music emphasized the third beat of the bar, and

741
00:39:34,436 --> 00:39:38,316
Speaker 1: they hide one of the bar one two three four,

742
00:39:38,516 --> 00:39:42,796
Speaker 1: one two three four. Rock megas ooh dah, ooh dah

743
00:39:42,876 --> 00:39:46,556
Speaker 1: one two three four, backbeat on two and you know

744
00:39:46,596 --> 00:39:51,316
Speaker 1: the downbeat one two three four, whereas reggae and Arabic

745
00:39:51,396 --> 00:39:55,996
Speaker 1: music is on three one two three four, two three

746
00:39:56,156 --> 00:40:00,476
Speaker 1: four nothing two three four two three four. And then

747
00:40:00,516 --> 00:40:04,116
Speaker 1: those up chicks that hold it together check check check,

748
00:40:04,236 --> 00:40:09,396
Speaker 1: oh check, which turned into my secret sauce when it

749
00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:14,836
Speaker 1: came to introducing reggae rhythms or reggae ish rhythms to

750
00:40:15,636 --> 00:40:18,356
Speaker 1: rock music. And I think it was the class who

751
00:40:18,516 --> 00:40:21,716
Speaker 1: did it first, attempting skinny white guys trying to play reggae.

752
00:40:21,716 --> 00:40:24,276
Speaker 1: And the reason they did that another sidebar story about

753
00:40:24,316 --> 00:40:27,356
Speaker 1: how Don Letz brought dub music into the punk clubs.

754
00:40:27,796 --> 00:40:31,156
Speaker 1: It was the only acceptably hostile form of chill music,

755
00:40:31,556 --> 00:40:35,836
Speaker 1: but Clash for the first to attempt playing reggae with

756
00:40:35,876 --> 00:40:39,556
Speaker 1: their white sensibilities, and they did it pretty effectively. But

757
00:40:39,676 --> 00:40:42,036
Speaker 1: it was just a whole lot easier for me because

758
00:40:42,076 --> 00:40:45,076
Speaker 1: it was already that formula was already there in my DNA,

759
00:40:45,476 --> 00:40:47,636
Speaker 1: so I didn't need to listen closely to what the

760
00:40:47,676 --> 00:40:51,956
Speaker 1: reggae cats were doing in Kingston, Jamaica. I just got, oh, yeah,

761
00:40:51,996 --> 00:40:53,476
Speaker 1: you can do that, and I just came up with

762
00:40:53,516 --> 00:40:56,756
Speaker 1: my Arabic vocabulary, which most of the world saw as

763
00:40:56,836 --> 00:40:57,516
Speaker 1: being reggae.

764
00:40:58,076 --> 00:41:01,636
Speaker 3: Interesting and in Arabic music, is there any stress on

765
00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:03,756
Speaker 3: the one or is it just on the three?

766
00:41:08,876 --> 00:41:12,276
Speaker 1: It's just they hide it. It's a gap, it's a void,

767
00:41:12,356 --> 00:41:15,036
Speaker 1: it's a pit that you fall into, and then they

768
00:41:15,076 --> 00:41:16,356
Speaker 1: land hard on beat three.

769
00:41:16,516 --> 00:41:19,316
Speaker 3: Well that's interesting because another thing I've noticed and you're

770
00:41:19,356 --> 00:41:22,596
Speaker 3: playing is if you're playing a crash, you often do

771
00:41:22,676 --> 00:41:25,036
Speaker 3: it on the fourth beat or even four and a

772
00:41:25,076 --> 00:41:27,716
Speaker 3: half in the wrong place, not the wrong place if

773
00:41:27,716 --> 00:41:31,396
Speaker 3: it works. But yeah, I think Invisible Sun would be

774
00:41:31,436 --> 00:41:32,356
Speaker 3: a good example of that.

775
00:41:35,196 --> 00:41:37,996
Speaker 1: You know, I guess, to the annoyance of my bandmates,

776
00:41:38,596 --> 00:41:43,596
Speaker 1: I would resist the straight backbeat. And I'm sure Stingo

777
00:41:43,676 --> 00:41:45,996
Speaker 1: writing his song you can care whether it's a downbeat

778
00:41:46,076 --> 00:41:47,596
Speaker 1: or a backbeat or whatever it is, as long as

779
00:41:47,636 --> 00:41:49,836
Speaker 1: you can hear as darn lyric And so it was

780
00:41:49,876 --> 00:41:53,796
Speaker 1: probably a distraction. Why can't they just play a backbeat? Well,

781
00:41:53,796 --> 00:41:55,876
Speaker 1: because I don't want to. I want to look for

782
00:41:55,956 --> 00:41:58,836
Speaker 1: something else somewhere, making it interesting or difficult. That was

783
00:41:58,876 --> 00:42:00,916
Speaker 1: a Freudian slip, interesting or different.

784
00:42:00,956 --> 00:42:05,196
Speaker 3: I meant to say, let you take that up with

785
00:42:05,276 --> 00:42:05,956
Speaker 3: your therapist.

786
00:42:06,556 --> 00:42:10,556
Speaker 1: Yeah. Really, it's just an avoid and so of standard.

787
00:42:10,756 --> 00:42:12,796
Speaker 1: And that's as far as you know. There's no more

788
00:42:12,836 --> 00:42:16,476
Speaker 1: detail to the brief than that. Just okay, what else

789
00:42:16,556 --> 00:42:16,836
Speaker 1: is there?

790
00:42:18,076 --> 00:42:20,236
Speaker 2: After this last break, we'll be back with more from

791
00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:27,156
Speaker 2: Stuart Copeland. We're back with the rest of Bruce Heellim's

792
00:42:27,196 --> 00:42:29,556
Speaker 2: conversation with Stuart Copeland.

793
00:42:30,396 --> 00:42:33,156
Speaker 3: So how did you arrange the songs? He brought them in?

794
00:42:33,676 --> 00:42:37,076
Speaker 3: They could have been done very conventionally. You come in,

795
00:42:37,116 --> 00:42:39,756
Speaker 3: you're often turning the beat around on these things. A

796
00:42:39,796 --> 00:42:42,476
Speaker 3: lot of high hat like I bring on the night.

797
00:42:43,716 --> 00:42:46,596
Speaker 1: Well, I would say, I'm guessing you'll have to ask them.

798
00:42:46,596 --> 00:42:49,676
Speaker 1: But I think as we were excited when Sting brought

799
00:42:49,676 --> 00:42:52,556
Speaker 1: in a song. He was excited when I'd fuck up

800
00:42:52,556 --> 00:42:56,196
Speaker 1: the rhythm because you know, we were co dependent at

801
00:42:56,196 --> 00:43:01,476
Speaker 1: the time, and he was real pleased that we'd take

802
00:43:01,476 --> 00:43:03,356
Speaker 1: an interest in his song. Of course, later after he'd

803
00:43:03,356 --> 00:43:07,996
Speaker 1: written twenty hits, you know, he was less concerned whether

804
00:43:08,156 --> 00:43:09,996
Speaker 1: we liked the song or not it's a hit because

805
00:43:09,996 --> 00:43:13,316
Speaker 1: he wrote it. And as he got more and more

806
00:43:13,356 --> 00:43:15,516
Speaker 1: in control of his medium and became a better and

807
00:43:15,596 --> 00:43:19,876
Speaker 1: better songwriter, he had less and less patience for collaboration.

808
00:43:20,356 --> 00:43:23,596
Speaker 1: And we understand that now, and I'm very grateful that

809
00:43:23,636 --> 00:43:25,956
Speaker 1: we got five albums out of that son of a bitch,

810
00:43:26,356 --> 00:43:28,676
Speaker 1: because it became more and more difficult for him to

811
00:43:28,716 --> 00:43:32,316
Speaker 1: compromise and collaborate because his musical ideas and I understand

812
00:43:32,316 --> 00:43:35,596
Speaker 1: this as an orchestral composer, the musical ideas are fully

813
00:43:35,636 --> 00:43:37,676
Speaker 1: formed in his mind. And by the way, he knows

814
00:43:37,676 --> 00:43:39,356
Speaker 1: a thing or two about where to put the drums

815
00:43:39,636 --> 00:43:41,996
Speaker 1: and how to use the drums. And you know, the

816
00:43:42,076 --> 00:43:44,836
Speaker 1: times when it was most urgent that I throttle and

817
00:43:44,956 --> 00:43:47,516
Speaker 1: kill him was when he was right. But in the

818
00:43:47,556 --> 00:43:49,716
Speaker 1: early days he was very pleased that we took an interest.

819
00:43:49,916 --> 00:43:53,636
Speaker 1: And if I came up with some wild offbeat rhythm,

820
00:43:53,876 --> 00:43:55,756
Speaker 1: all he had with the chords. He didn't have that

821
00:43:55,876 --> 00:43:59,596
Speaker 1: fully developed concept of what the music should be. So

822
00:44:00,436 --> 00:44:02,516
Speaker 1: I think in the same way that we left on

823
00:44:02,596 --> 00:44:04,956
Speaker 1: every one of his songs as he pulled them out,

824
00:44:05,516 --> 00:44:08,596
Speaker 1: they left on every one of my strange rhythms as

825
00:44:08,636 --> 00:44:12,636
Speaker 1: I pulled those out. And also Andy got much love

826
00:44:12,876 --> 00:44:15,396
Speaker 1: from his bandmates when he came up with a guitar

827
00:44:15,476 --> 00:44:17,396
Speaker 1: part that was unique.

828
00:44:18,596 --> 00:44:21,436
Speaker 3: You just mentioned that he was usually right, staying that

829
00:44:21,676 --> 00:44:23,196
Speaker 3: he knew a thing or two about drums.

830
00:44:23,316 --> 00:44:26,356
Speaker 1: No, no, well, he was often right, let's call it

831
00:44:26,396 --> 00:44:30,636
Speaker 1: often right. What he was wrong about was the effect

832
00:44:30,716 --> 00:44:34,476
Speaker 1: that had on his two bandmates for him to be implacable,

833
00:44:34,956 --> 00:44:36,916
Speaker 1: and he you know, I would describe it as a

834
00:44:36,916 --> 00:44:39,156
Speaker 1: form of aspergers, and I mean that as a compliment

835
00:44:39,556 --> 00:44:42,716
Speaker 1: that he's just music is so important to him, it

836
00:44:42,836 --> 00:44:47,116
Speaker 1: just makes him feel sick to get it wrong. And

837
00:44:47,236 --> 00:44:49,316
Speaker 1: I'm grateful that he was able to put up with

838
00:44:49,396 --> 00:44:53,716
Speaker 1: these intrusions on his pure concept. But he did put

839
00:44:53,796 --> 00:44:55,796
Speaker 1: up with it, and it got more and more difficult,

840
00:44:55,796 --> 00:44:58,836
Speaker 1: which is why there was friction in the band. And finally,

841
00:44:59,436 --> 00:45:01,756
Speaker 1: you know, if you love somebody, set them free, and

842
00:45:01,836 --> 00:45:02,556
Speaker 1: off he went.

843
00:45:02,876 --> 00:45:06,436
Speaker 3: And immediately played with jazz players who you can't really control,

844
00:45:06,436 --> 00:45:08,156
Speaker 3: which I thought was a very odd choice.

845
00:45:08,796 --> 00:45:11,236
Speaker 1: Good point, and never thought like that. He left the

846
00:45:11,596 --> 00:45:14,956
Speaker 1: frying pan and into the fire of jazz musicians who

847
00:45:14,956 --> 00:45:19,516
Speaker 1: didn't hold him in such reverence, which annoyed me. Once again,

848
00:45:19,596 --> 00:45:23,836
Speaker 1: he was back in the supplicant position of gosh, you

849
00:45:23,996 --> 00:45:26,556
Speaker 1: like my songs, you'll play with me the skinny white Kid.

850
00:45:26,796 --> 00:45:29,196
Speaker 1: My goodness, I am so honored play what you like.

851
00:45:29,676 --> 00:45:32,476
Speaker 1: And they did to his benefit. I mean, his first album,

852
00:45:32,556 --> 00:45:35,796
Speaker 1: I Dream of Blue Turtles was a brilliant record because

853
00:45:35,836 --> 00:45:37,276
Speaker 1: he had faith in his players.

854
00:45:37,516 --> 00:45:42,036
Speaker 3: They were great flairs, Kenny Kirkland, all those guys were sensational.

855
00:45:42,276 --> 00:45:42,476
Speaker 1: Yeah.

856
00:45:42,716 --> 00:45:46,036
Speaker 3: It reminds me of the part in your book where

857
00:45:46,196 --> 00:45:49,116
Speaker 3: You're incredibly happy where you got your first tape recorder

858
00:45:49,236 --> 00:45:51,916
Speaker 3: when you could put multiple tracks on.

859
00:45:52,556 --> 00:45:54,636
Speaker 1: Ah, yes, the tact.

860
00:45:54,276 --> 00:45:57,236
Speaker 3: And that's when you recorded all your or did the

861
00:45:57,276 --> 00:46:00,196
Speaker 3: demos for Clark Kent, Yes.

862
00:46:00,236 --> 00:46:03,516
Speaker 1: And for Police too. I've always been a home recording enthusiast,

863
00:46:03,716 --> 00:46:07,196
Speaker 1: and before that I had a Revox a seventy seven,

864
00:46:07,636 --> 00:46:10,756
Speaker 1: and you record on the left channel, usually a drum box,

865
00:46:10,796 --> 00:46:13,156
Speaker 1: which I you know, a nightclub allounge. You act to

866
00:46:13,196 --> 00:46:16,116
Speaker 1: accompany the pianist in the in the bar, the piano

867
00:46:16,196 --> 00:46:21,876
Speaker 1: bar let that do you know, or pop one or

868
00:46:21,956 --> 00:46:27,236
Speaker 1: pop two or whatever, and then lay that down on

869
00:46:27,276 --> 00:46:30,556
Speaker 1: one track. Then I feed that track onto the other

870
00:46:30,676 --> 00:46:35,196
Speaker 1: track while adding a guitar, and so the drum box

871
00:46:35,276 --> 00:46:38,556
Speaker 1: and my live guitar goes onto track two. Married together.

872
00:46:39,196 --> 00:46:43,076
Speaker 1: Now I've got drums and guitar, I take that track,

873
00:46:43,196 --> 00:46:47,476
Speaker 1: bounce it back onto track one while adding a bass guitar,

874
00:46:48,156 --> 00:46:50,596
Speaker 1: and so I'd go bouncing tracks back and forth, but

875
00:46:50,716 --> 00:46:53,796
Speaker 1: they would get mushier and mushier. Kids these days probably

876
00:46:53,796 --> 00:46:57,716
Speaker 1: don't have a concept of signal to noise ratio, which

877
00:46:57,876 --> 00:47:02,996
Speaker 1: as a byproduct of magnetic tape as opposed to digital data,

878
00:47:03,516 --> 00:47:06,036
Speaker 1: and so every time you back you got tape hiss

879
00:47:06,196 --> 00:47:10,556
Speaker 1: as a layman's term for signal to noise, which increases,

880
00:47:10,796 --> 00:47:13,556
Speaker 1: and so the earlier tracks get mushier and mushier, which,

881
00:47:13,876 --> 00:47:16,876
Speaker 1: by the way, is why on old Rolling Stones records

882
00:47:16,876 --> 00:47:20,636
Speaker 1: and Beatles records the tambourine is so prominent because by

883
00:47:20,636 --> 00:47:22,876
Speaker 1: the time they did that, they only had four tracks

884
00:47:23,236 --> 00:47:25,356
Speaker 1: recording in the early days, and they did a lot

885
00:47:25,396 --> 00:47:27,876
Speaker 1: of this bouncing of tracks. They call it when you

886
00:47:28,276 --> 00:47:31,116
Speaker 1: merge tracks onto another track, then go back and forth

887
00:47:31,356 --> 00:47:34,876
Speaker 1: the initial tracks that say, the drums get mushier and mushier.

888
00:47:35,316 --> 00:47:37,516
Speaker 1: So to add some sparkle back into the rhythm, the

889
00:47:37,596 --> 00:47:40,996
Speaker 1: last thing they add is a tambourine, which is in

890
00:47:41,036 --> 00:47:44,916
Speaker 1: your face, bright fresh recording, whereas the actual live drum

891
00:47:44,956 --> 00:47:48,556
Speaker 1: set has gotten a bit mushy. We digress. I got

892
00:47:48,596 --> 00:47:51,196
Speaker 1: the four track machine, which meant that I now have

893
00:47:51,396 --> 00:47:54,036
Speaker 1: four tracks that I could record on, which was a

894
00:47:54,116 --> 00:47:57,596
Speaker 1: huge breakthrough. And I can now play guitar bassin you know,

895
00:47:57,716 --> 00:47:59,516
Speaker 1: two guitars bass in drum box.

896
00:48:00,036 --> 00:48:02,116
Speaker 3: And this really surprised me. In the book, maybe you

897
00:48:02,156 --> 00:48:05,676
Speaker 3: were overstating the case. When you went into the studio

898
00:48:06,316 --> 00:48:09,436
Speaker 3: to record your Clark Kent album, you said it was

899
00:48:09,476 --> 00:48:12,116
Speaker 3: the happiest day of your creative life.

900
00:48:12,276 --> 00:48:16,636
Speaker 1: Oh. Absolutely, without doubt. I've had a few happy days

901
00:48:16,676 --> 00:48:21,156
Speaker 1: since then. But at the time, I was a recording enthusiast,

902
00:48:21,236 --> 00:48:24,796
Speaker 1: frustrated guitarist, and I had these songs which the band

903
00:48:24,796 --> 00:48:27,676
Speaker 1: were not. They did not leap on my songs, you know,

904
00:48:27,756 --> 00:48:30,876
Speaker 1: because Sting had to sing them, and my puerile college

905
00:48:30,956 --> 00:48:35,076
Speaker 1: kid American college kid lyrics just did not match his persona.

906
00:48:35,156 --> 00:48:37,476
Speaker 1: But I do have recordings of him singing those dumb

907
00:48:37,556 --> 00:48:39,436
Speaker 1: songs of mine, including the one I had a hit

908
00:48:39,476 --> 00:48:42,796
Speaker 1: with called Don't Care. The lyric is something like, I

909
00:48:42,836 --> 00:48:45,876
Speaker 1: am the neatest thing that ever hit down. There isn't

910
00:48:45,916 --> 00:48:48,676
Speaker 1: anything that could bring me down. Don't care, did di

911
00:48:48,676 --> 00:48:51,356
Speaker 1: di di di? Did? Did? Don't care? You know, Sting

912
00:48:51,396 --> 00:48:55,996
Speaker 1: is a man of great genius and you know grave posture.

913
00:48:56,596 --> 00:48:58,636
Speaker 1: You know, he's a great poet and to sing those

914
00:48:58,876 --> 00:49:01,396
Speaker 1: I've got a recording of him singing that dumb song,

915
00:49:01,756 --> 00:49:03,716
Speaker 1: which I like to remind him of occasionally.

916
00:49:03,956 --> 00:49:05,476
Speaker 3: I was going to say, do you ever just leave

917
00:49:05,516 --> 00:49:08,876
Speaker 3: a message on his answering machine saying I've decided to

918
00:49:08,916 --> 00:49:09,996
Speaker 3: really and.

919
00:49:10,556 --> 00:49:14,316
Speaker 1: You've got me busted. Well, these days we get along great.

920
00:49:14,356 --> 00:49:16,516
Speaker 1: We don't have to play music together, so which means

921
00:49:16,556 --> 00:49:18,756
Speaker 1: that we get along really great. And we do like

922
00:49:18,796 --> 00:49:19,996
Speaker 1: to rattle each other's cage.

923
00:49:20,476 --> 00:49:24,116
Speaker 3: There's some very touching things in the book. People know

924
00:49:24,196 --> 00:49:27,476
Speaker 3: about you guys battling it out, but at one point

925
00:49:27,516 --> 00:49:29,996
Speaker 3: you babysit for him, so he and his wife couldn't

926
00:49:30,156 --> 00:49:30,636
Speaker 3: have a night.

927
00:49:30,876 --> 00:49:33,876
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well, we had to keep secret from our

928
00:49:33,956 --> 00:49:36,516
Speaker 1: punk scene, the fact that he was a father, he

929
00:49:36,596 --> 00:49:39,676
Speaker 1: had a baby, he's married. For one thing, that's bad enough,

930
00:49:39,676 --> 00:49:43,716
Speaker 1: but he actually had a wife and kid. God, I mean,

931
00:49:43,796 --> 00:49:46,076
Speaker 1: Joe Strummer wouldn't have talked to us if he'd known that.

932
00:49:46,676 --> 00:49:50,916
Speaker 1: But one day his wife was an actress. And here's

933
00:49:51,076 --> 00:49:54,556
Speaker 1: something else that I will expose to his discomfort is

934
00:49:54,596 --> 00:49:57,156
Speaker 1: that he was a model and if he went for

935
00:49:57,196 --> 00:49:59,116
Speaker 1: a gig, he would get the job because he just

936
00:49:59,156 --> 00:50:02,196
Speaker 1: had charisma out to hear. And so one day he

937
00:50:02,236 --> 00:50:04,756
Speaker 1: was out doing a modeling job and she was out

938
00:50:04,756 --> 00:50:06,276
Speaker 1: doing an acting job. And what are they going to

939
00:50:06,316 --> 00:50:09,156
Speaker 1: do with her child? They must have been desperate to

940
00:50:09,196 --> 00:50:12,436
Speaker 1: call me, and they dropped off young Joseph, who was

941
00:50:12,476 --> 00:50:15,036
Speaker 1: old enough to crawl. He was out of his crib.

942
00:50:15,516 --> 00:50:17,916
Speaker 1: But a little destruct a thought, and he was you know,

943
00:50:17,956 --> 00:50:21,156
Speaker 1: for the next two hundred hours. He made my life

944
00:50:21,156 --> 00:50:22,876
Speaker 1: a misery while I tried to keep him out of

945
00:50:22,876 --> 00:50:26,596
Speaker 1: trouble and stop him from destroying my world. But a

946
00:50:26,676 --> 00:50:29,676
Speaker 1: lifelong bond was established. That little kid left a dent

947
00:50:29,756 --> 00:50:32,916
Speaker 1: in my heart which survives to this day. And now

948
00:50:32,996 --> 00:50:36,716
Speaker 1: Joseph Sumner is himself a father of many, just a

949
00:50:36,756 --> 00:50:38,756
Speaker 1: really one of the world's great human beings.

950
00:50:39,196 --> 00:50:41,676
Speaker 3: He also called Sting at one point, one of the

951
00:50:41,676 --> 00:50:43,076
Speaker 3: world's most loyal.

952
00:50:42,796 --> 00:50:46,796
Speaker 1: People, true to this day. In fact, he has around

953
00:50:46,876 --> 00:50:49,316
Speaker 1: him the only people he wasn't loyal to or Andy

954
00:50:49,356 --> 00:50:53,236
Speaker 1: and me. Everyone else in his world is old police crew.

955
00:50:53,716 --> 00:50:59,236
Speaker 1: He forms relationships and they last, and our relationship lasts.

956
00:50:59,356 --> 00:51:02,356
Speaker 1: The only thing that doesn't last is our musical relationship,

957
00:51:02,596 --> 00:51:04,876
Speaker 1: which is secondary. And there's a good reason for that.

958
00:51:05,436 --> 00:51:08,476
Speaker 1: We are not musically birds of a feather. We make

959
00:51:08,556 --> 00:51:12,396
Speaker 1: music for for reasons. Music has a different function in

960
00:51:12,436 --> 00:51:16,556
Speaker 1: our lives. We go about it in different ways. And

961
00:51:16,636 --> 00:51:20,636
Speaker 1: when we were young and codependent, that worked. We now

962
00:51:20,716 --> 00:51:24,196
Speaker 1: understand that that clash provided the police. It gave the

963
00:51:24,236 --> 00:51:27,716
Speaker 1: police its thing. But he's very loyal to me to

964
00:51:27,756 --> 00:51:31,596
Speaker 1: this day in every matter except for music, and that's fine.

965
00:51:31,676 --> 00:51:34,636
Speaker 1: You know, we enjoy each other's company, and I don't

966
00:51:34,756 --> 00:51:39,196
Speaker 1: enjoy getting dictated to any more than he enjoys struggling

967
00:51:39,476 --> 00:51:40,676
Speaker 1: with collaboration.

968
00:51:41,676 --> 00:51:44,436
Speaker 3: Just raised a really interesting point. You have traveled around

969
00:51:44,476 --> 00:51:47,436
Speaker 3: the world. You did a film going to Africa, kind

970
00:51:47,476 --> 00:51:50,316
Speaker 3: of like one of your heroes, Ginger Baker did, and

971
00:51:50,356 --> 00:51:54,436
Speaker 3: you were looking for Western music. You just said, music

972
00:51:54,556 --> 00:51:58,516
Speaker 3: has a different function in your life other than it's

973
00:51:58,556 --> 00:52:01,196
Speaker 3: your job, and I think you love doing it. What

974
00:52:01,356 --> 00:52:03,356
Speaker 3: is music in your life? How does it function?

975
00:52:05,236 --> 00:52:07,996
Speaker 1: It is a river that flows a wake up in

976
00:52:08,036 --> 00:52:10,396
Speaker 1: the morning, I rush through breakfast so I can get

977
00:52:10,396 --> 00:52:12,916
Speaker 1: into this room right here and make some more music.

978
00:52:13,036 --> 00:52:15,676
Speaker 1: It just flows out of me like a river. And

979
00:52:15,716 --> 00:52:19,156
Speaker 1: this isn't true of all musicians. Many musicians are players,

980
00:52:19,636 --> 00:52:24,156
Speaker 1: and they achieve their musical nirvana just by playing their instrument,

981
00:52:24,636 --> 00:52:26,836
Speaker 1: you know, and the music doesn't happen for them until

982
00:52:26,836 --> 00:52:28,876
Speaker 1: they pick up their instrument and start playing it. For me,

983
00:52:29,116 --> 00:52:32,156
Speaker 1: it's a river that flows. That doesn't mean that this

984
00:52:32,676 --> 00:52:35,916
Speaker 1: gushing torrent of music that comes out of my brain

985
00:52:35,996 --> 00:52:38,996
Speaker 1: is any good or that anyone else will like it

986
00:52:39,036 --> 00:52:42,756
Speaker 1: apart from me. Fortunately enough people do so that I

987
00:52:42,756 --> 00:52:46,636
Speaker 1: can earn my crust from producing this stuff. But it's

988
00:52:46,676 --> 00:52:49,556
Speaker 1: a gift that comes to me. And you know, like

989
00:52:49,836 --> 00:52:52,556
Speaker 1: I have musicians who are an incredible pianist, for instance,

990
00:52:52,596 --> 00:52:56,516
Speaker 1: concert pianist. You know, he'll come fly into the Chicago

991
00:52:56,596 --> 00:53:00,116
Speaker 1: Symphony and play rock Monona's fourth Piano Concerto and just

992
00:53:00,276 --> 00:53:05,356
Speaker 1: incredible musicality in every which way except the composing part.

993
00:53:05,476 --> 00:53:07,636
Speaker 1: And he will say, you know, this summer, I think

994
00:53:07,676 --> 00:53:10,636
Speaker 1: I'm going to compose a pano concerto. No, you're not.

995
00:53:11,396 --> 00:53:13,316
Speaker 1: If you were going to compose a piano concerto, you

996
00:53:13,356 --> 00:53:17,116
Speaker 1: would need that gene, that gushing torrent of musicality, and

997
00:53:17,156 --> 00:53:20,116
Speaker 1: you would have written ten piano concerties by now. If

998
00:53:20,156 --> 00:53:22,756
Speaker 1: you're going to wait till this summer. That means where

999
00:53:22,756 --> 00:53:24,756
Speaker 1: are you going to get it? You know, his fingers

1000
00:53:24,796 --> 00:53:28,236
Speaker 1: do it. His heart plays the music with great musicality,

1001
00:53:28,476 --> 00:53:32,916
Speaker 1: but that composing gene is another and separate and distinct factor.

1002
00:53:33,476 --> 00:53:35,876
Speaker 1: So the relationship with music is that I just have

1003
00:53:35,916 --> 00:53:37,716
Speaker 1: this music that I want to make, and when I

1004
00:53:37,716 --> 00:53:40,276
Speaker 1: sit down behind the drums, I just play. It's just

1005
00:53:40,316 --> 00:53:42,596
Speaker 1: something I don't think about. I just do it. And

1006
00:53:42,716 --> 00:53:46,236
Speaker 1: to be working with a musician that has an agenda, actually,

1007
00:53:46,716 --> 00:53:49,236
Speaker 1: I kind of want the drums to do like this.

1008
00:53:49,636 --> 00:53:53,676
Speaker 1: I go ya what say what? Okay, I'll try that,

1009
00:53:53,756 --> 00:53:55,316
Speaker 1: And as soon as I start playing, it goes right

1010
00:53:55,356 --> 00:53:58,596
Speaker 1: out of my head. And the function of music for

1011
00:53:58,716 --> 00:54:01,356
Speaker 1: me is kind of the other way around. I am

1012
00:54:01,396 --> 00:54:05,236
Speaker 1: a vessel for this music that comes from my heart.

1013
00:54:05,796 --> 00:54:10,196
Speaker 3: But you have an incredible gift for melo. I've been

1014
00:54:10,236 --> 00:54:11,956
Speaker 3: listening to a lot of your music. I've been listening

1015
00:54:11,996 --> 00:54:15,716
Speaker 3: to the orchestral album you did. Seems almost limitless.

1016
00:54:15,996 --> 00:54:18,996
Speaker 1: Well the music. I've been doing this for seventy years

1017
00:54:19,396 --> 00:54:22,516
Speaker 1: and it hasn't quit. In fact, as I developed more skills,

1018
00:54:22,676 --> 00:54:24,716
Speaker 1: I've still got the same musical identity I had that

1019
00:54:24,756 --> 00:54:27,836
Speaker 1: I was born with the same inclination to use these

1020
00:54:27,996 --> 00:54:31,956
Speaker 1: intervals or those intervals melodic signature, if you like. But

1021
00:54:32,516 --> 00:54:35,556
Speaker 1: as the years and decades go by, I developed more skills.

1022
00:54:36,156 --> 00:54:39,316
Speaker 1: So where I was, you know, in the seventies, I

1023
00:54:39,396 --> 00:54:41,596
Speaker 1: was just limited to the chords I could play on

1024
00:54:41,636 --> 00:54:45,716
Speaker 1: a guitar recorded into my rebox A seventy seven. Now

1025
00:54:46,156 --> 00:54:49,916
Speaker 1: I have full orchestration skills and can now work with

1026
00:54:49,956 --> 00:54:53,516
Speaker 1: the seventy piece orchestra to take my music Internet. But

1027
00:54:53,556 --> 00:54:56,956
Speaker 1: it's the same music. It's the same melodic sensibility, it's

1028
00:54:57,036 --> 00:54:59,996
Speaker 1: the same harmon. I just gravitate towards this chord in

1029
00:55:00,036 --> 00:55:02,796
Speaker 1: that chord. It's the same identity. The only thing that's

1030
00:55:02,876 --> 00:55:04,196
Speaker 1: changed is the skill set.

1031
00:55:04,756 --> 00:55:06,996
Speaker 3: The technology has changed, though, it's allowed you to do

1032
00:55:07,036 --> 00:55:08,716
Speaker 3: that absolutely.

1033
00:55:09,236 --> 00:55:12,476
Speaker 1: One day they invented a computer that would do as

1034
00:55:12,556 --> 00:55:15,076
Speaker 1: it was told. Before that they had a drum machine

1035
00:55:15,076 --> 00:55:16,756
Speaker 1: which you could just set a rhythm and play along

1036
00:55:16,796 --> 00:55:21,196
Speaker 1: with it. Then Roland developed drum machines that you could program.

1037
00:55:21,596 --> 00:55:24,476
Speaker 1: Kind of complicated, but you could program into it the

1038
00:55:24,556 --> 00:55:27,396
Speaker 1: rhythm for the verse and then say it bar twenty

1039
00:55:27,436 --> 00:55:30,196
Speaker 1: five switched to this other rhythm, and you could program

1040
00:55:30,196 --> 00:55:31,676
Speaker 1: that other rhythm. It was kind of fiddlely, but you

1041
00:55:31,676 --> 00:55:34,556
Speaker 1: could do it. And then they invented the fairlight computer,

1042
00:55:34,956 --> 00:55:37,636
Speaker 1: where you had a visual display and you could enter

1043
00:55:37,676 --> 00:55:40,036
Speaker 1: the notes on a keyboard and tell it to play

1044
00:55:40,076 --> 00:55:42,996
Speaker 1: back exactly what I tell you in a much more

1045
00:55:43,116 --> 00:55:47,756
Speaker 1: comprehensive way. And that created me as a composer. It

1046
00:55:47,836 --> 00:55:50,676
Speaker 1: enabled me to really think of music in a broader

1047
00:55:50,716 --> 00:55:53,276
Speaker 1: way and have total control. And that's where my orchestral

1048
00:55:53,356 --> 00:55:53,996
Speaker 1: journey began.

1049
00:55:54,756 --> 00:55:57,916
Speaker 3: Well, there's a technological change going on right now, and

1050
00:55:57,956 --> 00:55:59,756
Speaker 3: I'd love to know what you think about it, which

1051
00:55:59,796 --> 00:56:03,516
Speaker 3: is artificial intelligence. That is a tool that a lot

1052
00:56:03,516 --> 00:56:07,356
Speaker 3: of musicians, perhaps a lot of music labels are going

1053
00:56:07,396 --> 00:56:09,716
Speaker 3: to be using. What's your view of that.

1054
00:56:11,156 --> 00:56:14,316
Speaker 1: I've had my career and therefore I can wish well

1055
00:56:14,476 --> 00:56:17,116
Speaker 1: all of those non musicians who can now make music

1056
00:56:17,396 --> 00:56:21,516
Speaker 1: using AI. And I say that as a drummer, which

1057
00:56:21,556 --> 00:56:25,116
Speaker 1: is the first instrument to get brushed aside by technology.

1058
00:56:25,596 --> 00:56:27,436
Speaker 1: You know how many guys does it take to screw

1059
00:56:27,476 --> 00:56:30,076
Speaker 1: in a light bulb? None get your drum box to

1060
00:56:30,076 --> 00:56:35,116
Speaker 1: do it. And it's weird that my instrument should be supplanted. Thus,

1061
00:56:35,556 --> 00:56:42,036
Speaker 1: because rhythm the most elemental instinctive, mammalian part of music

1062
00:56:42,436 --> 00:56:46,156
Speaker 1: that gets your puredenda thrusting in public. You would think

1063
00:56:46,196 --> 00:56:48,676
Speaker 1: that would be visceral and that a machine would be

1064
00:56:48,716 --> 00:56:52,196
Speaker 1: the furthest thing to be able to recreate that visceral

1065
00:56:53,076 --> 00:56:56,836
Speaker 1: rhythm thrusting. But no, on the disco floor, it's a

1066
00:56:56,956 --> 00:57:01,236
Speaker 1: machine that gets humans dancing. And another thing to think

1067
00:57:01,236 --> 00:57:05,316
Speaker 1: about is an artist like Moby, who's very creative and musical,

1068
00:57:05,356 --> 00:57:07,876
Speaker 1: but to my knowledge, he doesn't play a musical instrument.

1069
00:57:08,716 --> 00:57:13,676
Speaker 1: He is musical elements and creates beautiful music as a result.

1070
00:57:13,676 --> 00:57:17,316
Speaker 1: And Kanye and Kendrick and all these other modern musicians

1071
00:57:17,316 --> 00:57:20,796
Speaker 1: who don't need some band guitar, bass and drums. They

1072
00:57:20,836 --> 00:57:25,236
Speaker 1: create music with found sounds and so on. With musicality.

1073
00:57:25,596 --> 00:57:28,316
Speaker 1: They're not limited by what their fingers can do. And

1074
00:57:28,436 --> 00:57:31,236
Speaker 1: so the technology has set Moby and Kendrick then the

1075
00:57:31,236 --> 00:57:33,956
Speaker 1: rest of them, you know, set them free to create

1076
00:57:34,036 --> 00:57:37,036
Speaker 1: stuff with their imagination. But they don't necessarily need to

1077
00:57:37,076 --> 00:57:42,676
Speaker 1: have that finger twiddling piece. It's just music from whatever source.

1078
00:57:42,916 --> 00:57:45,916
Speaker 1: And of course people musicians of my generation despise it

1079
00:57:45,956 --> 00:57:47,836
Speaker 1: and are threatened by the fact that you can make

1080
00:57:47,916 --> 00:57:52,116
Speaker 1: music without an actual living musicians. I say who cares.

1081
00:57:52,156 --> 00:57:54,876
Speaker 1: It works. It moves people, you know, in the case

1082
00:57:54,876 --> 00:57:57,676
Speaker 1: of the drum box, gets them dancing on the dance floor.

1083
00:57:58,156 --> 00:57:59,116
Speaker 1: That's what we're here for.

1084
00:57:59,796 --> 00:58:02,076
Speaker 3: And yet you know, what those artists are doing is

1085
00:58:02,116 --> 00:58:05,836
Speaker 3: a kind of form of collage, putting together different elements.

1086
00:58:06,276 --> 00:58:08,596
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I can see what your next question is.

1087
00:58:08,636 --> 00:58:12,676
Speaker 1: What about when a machine does the collaging, When a

1088
00:58:12,716 --> 00:58:18,196
Speaker 1: machine assembles these things, a machine called AI and I

1089
00:58:18,316 --> 00:58:21,596
Speaker 1: have the same feeling about it now. I was at

1090
00:58:21,676 --> 00:58:24,436
Speaker 1: the Mediam Festival in can a couple of weeks ago

1091
00:58:24,476 --> 00:58:27,796
Speaker 1: where I was on two different panels, one of artists

1092
00:58:27,876 --> 00:58:30,996
Speaker 1: talking about it and the other with lawyers talking about it.

1093
00:58:31,356 --> 00:58:33,596
Speaker 1: And on the second panel it was the lady who

1094
00:58:33,636 --> 00:58:37,836
Speaker 1: runs SASSEM, the BMI of Europe and all these people

1095
00:58:37,916 --> 00:58:41,876
Speaker 1: who are the legal aspects of copyright and who's protected.

1096
00:58:41,916 --> 00:58:44,996
Speaker 1: If you merge Mick Jagger with David Bowie and you've

1097
00:58:44,996 --> 00:58:48,756
Speaker 1: got this sounds like both of them, But isn't either

1098
00:58:48,796 --> 00:58:51,476
Speaker 1: of them who owns that? You know? And so you

1099
00:58:51,516 --> 00:58:54,516
Speaker 1: know the legal issues and they're not my problem. And

1100
00:58:54,556 --> 00:58:58,436
Speaker 1: the artists were more sanguine about it because they can

1101
00:58:58,596 --> 00:59:01,036
Speaker 1: use it, because it gives them more tools than it

1102
00:59:01,076 --> 00:59:05,676
Speaker 1: takes away. And there's another aspect, which is the sense

1103
00:59:05,716 --> 00:59:09,516
Speaker 1: that music is evolved in Homo sapiens for the benefit

1104
00:59:09,596 --> 00:59:11,196
Speaker 1: of all of us. We are all You and I

1105
00:59:11,316 --> 00:59:14,636
Speaker 1: are both and everyone are incredibly musical. All of us

1106
00:59:14,676 --> 00:59:18,316
Speaker 1: are not Eric Clapton, but our species is a very

1107
00:59:18,396 --> 00:59:21,316
Speaker 1: musical species. We are all gifted musically. We can all

1108
00:59:21,356 --> 00:59:23,716
Speaker 1: sing a tune, well, most of us. We can all

1109
00:59:24,036 --> 00:59:27,596
Speaker 1: coordinate our body motions to fit into a rhythm. We

1110
00:59:27,636 --> 00:59:30,716
Speaker 1: are more musical than we think. And so a tool

1111
00:59:30,836 --> 00:59:35,036
Speaker 1: such as AI gives the gift of music to every man, woman,

1112
00:59:35,076 --> 00:59:38,196
Speaker 1: and child on the planet. That's a really good thing

1113
00:59:38,276 --> 00:59:41,796
Speaker 1: for non professionals. It goes back to campfire music, where

1114
00:59:42,436 --> 00:59:45,836
Speaker 1: before the age where of specialization, where I get to

1115
00:59:45,876 --> 00:59:48,956
Speaker 1: spend all my time banging stuff and getting really really

1116
00:59:49,036 --> 00:59:51,196
Speaker 1: good at it, and you get to just pay me

1117
00:59:51,396 --> 00:59:54,436
Speaker 1: money to listen to me bang and shit. AI gives

1118
00:59:54,476 --> 00:59:57,556
Speaker 1: you the tool to make your own music and create

1119
00:59:57,596 --> 00:59:59,916
Speaker 1: your own community, and you get to do it, And

1120
00:59:59,996 --> 01:00:04,436
Speaker 1: so for humanity, it's a blessing. For individual musicians trying

1121
01:00:04,476 --> 01:00:06,956
Speaker 1: to make a living at it, the same thing happened,

1122
01:00:07,036 --> 01:00:08,836
Speaker 1: you know, back in the days of Moby with samples

1123
01:00:08,836 --> 01:00:11,956
Speaker 1: and so now any damn fool can make music, which

1124
01:00:11,996 --> 01:00:15,236
Speaker 1: means every damn fool is making music, which means the

1125
01:00:15,236 --> 01:00:19,676
Speaker 1: competition is real fierce, And so I feel some sympathy

1126
01:00:19,756 --> 01:00:23,676
Speaker 1: for my young musicians try to create a career, and

1127
01:00:23,996 --> 01:00:27,756
Speaker 1: this creates an obstacle for them, but for humanity at large,

1128
01:00:28,396 --> 01:00:29,076
Speaker 1: it's a blessing.

1129
01:00:29,796 --> 01:00:32,036
Speaker 3: Well, I'm gonna keep listening to you banging shit, I

1130
01:00:32,036 --> 01:00:33,356
Speaker 3: think in the meantime.

1131
01:00:33,556 --> 01:00:33,836
Speaker 1: Cool.

1132
01:00:33,956 --> 01:00:36,476
Speaker 3: All right, Thank you so much, and I love the book.

1133
01:00:36,916 --> 01:00:39,396
Speaker 1: Cool. Glad you enjoyed it, and thanks for listening.

1134
01:00:41,916 --> 01:00:44,716
Speaker 2: Thanks to Stewart Copeland for talking about the police's formative

1135
01:00:44,796 --> 01:00:48,236
Speaker 2: years and his new book, Police Diaries. You can hear

1136
01:00:48,276 --> 01:00:50,636
Speaker 2: all of our favorite police songs on a playlist at

1137
01:00:50,636 --> 01:00:54,716
Speaker 2: broken Record podcast dot com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel

1138
01:00:54,716 --> 01:00:57,756
Speaker 2: at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast, where you

1139
01:00:57,796 --> 01:01:01,156
Speaker 2: can find all of our new episodes. You can follow

1140
01:01:01,236 --> 01:01:04,676
Speaker 2: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced

1141
01:01:04,716 --> 01:01:07,556
Speaker 2: and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric

1142
01:01:07,636 --> 01:01:11,996
Speaker 2: Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollin. Broken

1143
01:01:12,036 --> 01:01:15,396
Speaker 2: Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love

1144
01:01:15,436 --> 01:01:19,556
Speaker 2: this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to pushkin Plus.

1145
01:01:20,116 --> 01:01:23,436
Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

1146
01:01:23,516 --> 01:01:26,236
Speaker 2: and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.

1147
01:01:26,916 --> 01:01:30,796
Speaker 2: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if

1148
01:01:30,836 --> 01:01:33,276
Speaker 2: you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and

1149
01:01:33,316 --> 01:01:36,116
Speaker 2: review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by

1150
01:01:36,196 --> 01:01:38,076
Speaker 2: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.