1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Nikoda Here podcast. And once again I have 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: forgotten to write an intro for I'm your host bia 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: along with these chains. 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: I mean, it's great to be here. Intro on. 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this interless episode is I think the first 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: episode that well, can I promise this is the first 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: episode that was recorded after we learned that Tim Wallas 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: was going to be the vice presidential nominee, defeating the 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: sexual assault guy and then the other sexual assault guy 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: who probably covered up on murder. 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, don't slack on it. Also coming up a murdered 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 2: ant me. 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a truly impressive, truly impressive sort of 14 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: set of candidates that party elite were choosing from. 15 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: It's still somewhat surprising that they didn't like fumble. I 16 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 2: mean that they will still fumble. 17 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: We have months to go, but that's true. Yeah, I mean, 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: to be fair, I think, oh god, we figured out 19 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: this guy covered up murder. Is probably the kind of 20 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: thing that like even the Dems like dog shit opposition 21 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: research people were like, hmm, okay, we shouldn't run that guy. 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that tweeting about his murder cover up. 23 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 2: Let's leave this one. 24 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Shapiro out of Pennsylvania, who is one of 25 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: the other candidates, by the way, Yeah sucks shit, But 26 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: you know, so the guy we ended up with a 27 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: sort of folksy Midwestern actually I think it was just 28 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: a defensive coordinator or whatever, the defensive coach for his 29 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: football team. He's a very sort of folksy guy. We're 30 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: gonna get more into him next week. But the thing 31 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: that I wanted to sort of start our discussion about 32 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,279 Speaker 1: the vice presidential candidates with is attempting to reconcile something 33 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: that I've seen a lot of discussion about sort of 34 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, kind of confusion to some extent about 35 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: about how do you actually make sense of the sort 36 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: of two halves of Tim Walls's record, right which, on 37 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: the one hand, he's signing a bunch of distrively progressive, 38 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: sort of welfared legislation being the governor of Minnesota, including 39 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: things like universal free school lunch. I said it was 40 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: lunch of breakfast. I don't remember. It was both. It 41 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: was both, yeah, yeah, And you know the on the 42 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: one hand, you have this sort of sparkling record, and 43 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: then on the other hand, you have you know, him 44 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: puling in the National Guard and deploying it to suppress 45 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: the uprising in twenty twenty, which, lest we forget, started 46 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: in Minnesota. Yeah, that's where the third Precinct burned, and 47 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: also using the police to sort of like horribly brutalize 48 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: protesters against Line three, which is an oil pipeline through 49 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of indigenous land that probably I don't know, 50 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: we're probably two years out from like an unbelievably horrific 51 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: oil spill coming out of it that everyone's gonna go, 52 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: how can we possibly have predicted this? It only had 53 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: spilled a million times before, et cetera, et cetera, and 54 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: that walls like rammed through and had people who were 55 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: resisting it like horribly beaten by a cop. So how 56 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: do you sort of reconcile these two halves of this 57 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: guy's record? And there's like a local politics explanation which 58 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: I see bandied about a lot, which is true to 59 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: some extent, And that explanation is that he's not really 60 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: a progressive and he's mostly kind of a moderate who 61 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: she's going along with a pro fairly progressive Minnesota legislature 62 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: as getting credit for just like signing bills. And that's 63 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: kind of true. But it's also I think ultimately a 64 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: cop out because we are on year about one hundred 65 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: and forty of the welfare state, and this shit keeps 66 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: happening every single time. And what's really sort of at 67 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: stake here analytically is that the relationship between the welfare 68 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: state and violence is significantly deeper than the record of 69 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: one guy. And so today what we're going to be 70 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: doing is not really talking about Tim Willson much. What 71 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: we're going to be doing is we're going to be 72 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: going back through some of the history of social democracy 73 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: and trying to understand how it became entangled with the 74 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: sort of use of force with police violence, because I 75 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: think there's a story there that's been completely buried by 76 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: the tidal wave of just like I don't know whatever 77 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: walls takes, and you know, I think presidential elections are 78 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: something that has a tendency to just destroy everyone's analytical 79 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: capacity for like two years. So yes, let's resist that 80 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: and go do something interesting. Yeah, okay, Yeah, So I 81 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: think the place to start with this is this is 82 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: a place that we start, I think not infrequent amount 83 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: on this show, or at least I do. And that's 84 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: the sort of original debates from you know, about the 85 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: eighteen thirties through roughly the eighteen seventies early eighteen eighties 86 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: when it changes about what socialism was going to be. 87 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: There's always been to some extent, like a bunch of 88 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: different kind of understandings of it, but something that you know, 89 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: what you'd call the sort of left wing of the Democrats, 90 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: which is like everyone at that point, right, and the 91 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: anarchists kind of agree about. And basicthing that Marx agrees 92 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: about with sort of the anarchists at the time is 93 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: that socialism is you know, it's the free association of producers, right, 94 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, it is the work class abolishing itself, but 95 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: then also like being the people who directly run the 96 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: new society that's sort of brought about by this thing 97 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: without sort of the stage or sort of political mediation, 98 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. And even you know, people like 99 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: Angles who are like arch statists, right, like Angles, you know, 100 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: uses the theoretical justification for like every time a socialist 101 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: picks up a machine gun to shoot someone, and that 102 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: works for the state, Like that's Angles's justification for But 103 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: even he's talking about how like one day the state 104 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: will be like put on a shelf in a museum 105 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: and people will walk past and look at it and 106 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: then like walk by it because it's like it's a 107 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: tool of a bybegone era that nobody needs anymore. And 108 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: in this period, it's very clear that socialism is we're 109 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: just directly controlling the mesa production and it's directly democratically 110 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: managing their lives. But this becomes less clear as the 111 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds go on. Something that David Grayer points out, 112 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: and I think I've quoted this on the show before, 113 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: but it's important here. While this is sort of going on, right, 114 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: there's two kinds of breds in the development of the 115 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,799 Speaker 1: state and the development of sort of socialist idiology. One 116 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: is a move in the eighteen seventies and eighteen eighties. 117 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: Socialists start watching states build railroads and this drives them 118 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: completely nuts. It just obliterates their brains. It's like this 119 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: and the Post Office just like absolutely nuke their brains. 120 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: And they start going, Okay, hold on, but what if 121 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: instead of workers directly managing in their affairs and having 122 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, workers coordinating like the production of society, what 123 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: if instead the state did that? And socialism was literally 124 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: when the state did things, and this is something that 125 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: like even Angles is like pretty hostile to in the 126 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: sense that like he's a status to some extent, but 127 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: he also is very wary of doing things like calling 128 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: state on enterprises socialism, right because like, well, no, obviously 129 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily true, because like you could just have 130 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: capitalists state owned enterprises like lots of places US and 131 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: includingly importantly sort of Bismarck's Germany in this period, which 132 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: we will come back to in a second. 133 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and lots of the places that people on Twitter 134 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: think are socialist paradise Is today. 135 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, are just these sooe like state on enterprise hell hooles. 136 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: We've i talked about this extensively with China elsewhere. And 137 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: this sort of like shifts the conception of what people 138 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: think socialism is and you get these more sort of 139 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: reformist trends in sort of socialist circles. You get your 140 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: cot Skis, your burn Steams, people who think that like, 141 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: you don't need a revolution. You can sort of just 142 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: like you can vote your way into the state owning 143 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: property and that will somehow achieve socialism, or you can 144 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: sort of like stabilize capitalism and make it not bad anymore. Now, 145 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: that's what's happening on the socialist side. So there's this 146 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: sort of project of like autonomous workers control over everything, 147 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: right that that had been the original socialist project is 148 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: being eaten away on one hand from its own parties. 149 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: But then on the other hand, as sort of David 150 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: Gerrer points out, the capitalist class realizes that all of 151 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: these sort of autonomous institutions that the working class is building, 152 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: like your unions and your giant political parties have their 153 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: own sort of welfare system. The state realizes that you 154 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: can replicate these and use it as like a direct 155 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: buy off to stop these people from revolting. I'm going 156 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: to read a passage from David Graeber's Utopia of Rules ottovon. 157 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: Bismarck's reaction to socialist electoral success in eighteen seventy eight 158 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: was twofold on the one hand, banned the Socialist party, 159 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: trade unions, and leftist newspapers on the other, while when 160 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: this proved ineffective, socialist candidates continued to run and win 161 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: as independents to create a top down alternative to the 162 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: free schools, workers associations, friendly societies, libraries, theaters, and the 163 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: large process of building socialism from below. This took the 164 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: form of a program of social insurance for unemployment, health 165 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: and disability, etc. 166 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 3: Etc. 167 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: Free education, pensions, and so forth. Much of it watered 168 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: down versions of policies that have been part of the 169 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: socialist platform, but in every case carefully purged of any 170 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: democratic participatory element. In private, at least, he was utterly 171 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: candid about describing these efforts to buy out working class 172 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: loyalties day as conservative nationalist project. When le regimes later 173 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: did take power, the template had already been established, and 174 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: almost invariably they took the same top down approach, incorporating 175 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: locally organized clinics, libraries, mutual banking initiatives, workers education centers, 176 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: and the like into the administrative structure of the state. 177 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: So there's two interesting things here. One is that the 178 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: developments of the things that are going to become the 179 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: body welfare state. This is implemented not by you know, 180 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: all these sort of policies that we're talking about Walls doing. Now, 181 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: these were originally implemented not by the left, but very 182 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 1: deliberately by Auto von Bismarck. Like the arched late nineteen 183 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: th early twenty century conservative the guy who was literally 184 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: responsible for the foundation of Germany. Right, Like, that's that's 185 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: his project. He is the guy who creates the nation 186 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: of Germany and thus will forever live in infamy. Is 187 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: one of the most evil people in human history. The 188 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: line directly from him to Hitler is incredibly straight. But 189 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: the second part of this is what social democratic politics 190 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: turns into, right, which is the this effort to sort 191 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: of centralize all of the sort of autonomous institutions that 192 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: the working classic constructure and to centralize all of that 193 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: activity into the state. Right. You know, this is like 194 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: having your sort of clinics be state run, having your 195 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: libraries be state run, having your like mutual banking things, like, 196 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: all of these things that had been independent institutions are 197 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: folded into the state. 198 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: Project. 199 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: By folding these things into the state, Graver's interested in 200 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: the extent to which they become deuocratized and the Serb 201 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: democratic elements vanish entirely. I am less interested in that here, 202 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: and I am more interested in the extent to which 203 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: it ties all of these things to state violence. Now, James, 204 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: do you know what else is tied to state violence? 205 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: That was a master stroke me. Matt did not have 206 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: that one written down, came up on the cuff. 207 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 2: Absolutely fantastic. Please tell me me what is connected today? 208 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: It is the products and services that support this podcast. 209 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: We are back. So we've gotten into sort of how 210 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: these things that used to be mutual aid, right, these 211 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: are these sort of programs that were developed by working 212 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: class institutions to support each other, where we're sort of 213 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: folded into the state. And now we have to get 214 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: into the reverse of this process, which is how violence 215 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: was folded into social democracy in the eighteen hundreds. And 216 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: this is something I think is kind of well known 217 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: among the extremely nerd left, but I don't know if 218 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: it's very well known outside of that. But in the 219 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, everyone who is 220 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: like a Marxist in any stripe is a social Democrat. 221 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: And this is true equally of reformists like Burnstein and 222 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: also people like Lenin right, like the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, 223 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: both are splits from like the Social Democratic Labor Party 224 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: is it social Labor Party was I forget the actual 225 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: name of the Party of the Swift, but it was 226 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: a social democratic party of like Russia. Right. This is 227 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: the thing that all of the communists and all the 228 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: socialists like split from these sort of social democracy things, 229 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: which means that inherently, and this is something that you 230 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: can see reflected in the ways that they come to 231 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: power and in the ways that they sort of govern 232 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: len It is communism and social democracy are both just 233 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: two variants of the same thing, and you can see 234 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: this most clearly either ways they come to power the 235 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: way they embark on this project of centralizing power, violence, production, 236 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: and the organization of society into the state. Both of 237 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: them take power by machine gunning their enemies and the 238 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: left with the newfound power of the state. Alongside this 239 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: sort of Russian revolution, there is the German Revolution, and 240 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: the German Revolution is defeated when the Social Democratic Party 241 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: of Germany, which had been the party of angles right 242 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: like Marx like write stuff about their platform like this 243 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: is the premier social democratic party in the world. They 244 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: take power by stopping the revolution, slaughtering the communists and 245 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: using the sort of proto fascist freikorps to like just 246 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: kill them all. This is how Rose Luxembourg is killed. 247 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: So the first social democratic government to come to power 248 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: in Europe, since I guess technically there was about two 249 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: months in eighteen forty eight when there were also Democrats 250 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: in France, but that lasted very very brief amount of time. 251 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: We see, So the first time they come to power 252 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: is in Germany. And in Germany they come to power 253 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: in this blood bath that you know, sort of destroys 254 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: like the rest of this like armed left and attempting 255 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: to centralize politics and military power in the hands of 256 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: the state. This is how they defeat the revolutionary movements 257 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: in Russia. Basically the same process happens. Right, There's the 258 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: first Revolution, which is the February Revolution nine seventeen, and 259 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: then the Bolsheviks take power in the Second Revolution, and 260 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: the moment the Bolsheviks take power, they spend basically the 261 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: entire rest of the Russian Revolution in the Russian Civil 262 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 1: War just straight up slaughtering every single other left wing 263 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: faction in the entirety of Russia, which ends in sort 264 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: of the Massacre. And oh yeah, oh yeah, they tell 265 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: a lot of Ukrainian leftists they are killing anarchists from 266 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: like Azerbaijan to like fucking Spain, like. 267 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: A prominent appearance in Spain killing anarchist in May nineteen 268 00:13:59,559 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: thirty seven. 269 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the sort of immediate Russian context. Right. This 270 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: is solidified by the massacre at Kronstat where the Bolsheviks 271 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: sealed there sort of opposition to any kind of like 272 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: autonomous working class. Right. For the Bolsheviks, the working class 273 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: is going to be directly subordinated to the Bolshevik Party 274 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: and to that platform, and any dvashu or any attempt 275 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: to sort of like manage yourself like autonomously is just 276 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: going to be stamped out, right, And Lenin's attempt to 277 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: do this is going to be sort of like followed 278 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: by Stalin doing this even more. Yeah. And so what 279 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,119 Speaker 1: you have here, right, what collective ownership is in social democracy, 280 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: And this is true of both the German social Democrats, 281 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: who are what we think of social democrats today, right, 282 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: they're sort of like electoralists, they're like capitalists, and also 283 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks. What collective ownership is is the state owns things, 284 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: and if you try to do anything about this, they 285 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: shoot you. So this is sort of the origin of 286 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: like these two forms of social democracy. There's also sort 287 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: of more liberal forms of this. Right. FDR does not 288 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: conceive of himself as a social democrat like he thinks 289 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: of himself as a liberal when the American liberal tradition 290 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: is a bizarre one. But you know, we actually talked 291 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: about this in my episode about the time that Wizards 292 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: of the Coast, the creators of Magic the Gathering deployed 293 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: the Pikertons against the guy for revealing what was in 294 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: a magic product too early. 295 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: Amazing. I think it also has some route I think 296 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: in like this kind of I mean the examples that 297 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: I'm most familiar with the British like post eighteen thirty 298 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: two Reform Act, right, like of like this paternal state benevolence. Right, 299 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: they all line the same thing, right, which is state 300 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: trying to buy off co opt resistance and doing so 301 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: in a way that like it's carrot and stick. 302 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, there's elements of this in Leninism too, right, 303 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: Like Lenin's like great theoretical contribution to whatever is. When 304 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: Lenin talks about like trade union consciousness, people bring this 305 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: up a lot because like, yeah, like there is obviously 306 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: issues with just like all of your organizing being you 307 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: make a trade union and then your trade union becomes 308 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: the afl CIO and tries to actually not he tries 309 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: to successfully overthrows Allende and installs Pinochet right like there's 310 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: a thing there. But when Lenin is talking about trade 311 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: union consciousness, the thing that Lenin believes is that they 312 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: need like middle class petite bourgeois, like fucking theorists to 313 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: come in and teach them what socialism is. And this 314 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: is an explicit part of their theory, right, And this 315 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: is that same sort of paternalism that they have to 316 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: be like led, even the sort of vanguard working class 317 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: needs to be led by these like theorists who I 318 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: don't know, emerge from like Lenin's friend group in exile 319 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: in Switzerland do whatever, and FDR's sort of policy works. 320 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: I think it's not really understood how similar FDR's stuff 321 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: is to like how the New Deal is seen at 322 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: the time, even by people like outside of the country, 323 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: as compared to like the others from massive social people 324 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: say he places as opposed to sort of Soviet communism 325 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: or even like fascism like Nehru. The guy who is 326 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: going to become like the founding Prime Minister of India 327 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: has this whole thing in like nineteen forty one, where's 328 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: look at the New Deal and he's going this is 329 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: either going to produce communism or fascism. So, like the 330 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: New Deal is a fundamental rewriting of the American social contract. 331 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: And a big part of it is he's doing the 332 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: same thing that the social democrats are trying to do, 333 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: which is that he's trying to centralize everything into the state. 334 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: He's trying to centralize partially this is welfare benefits, right, 335 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: He's trying to centralize like unions very specifically into the state. 336 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: And he's also trying to centralize violence into this state. 337 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: Because before this, the US, I mean we've talked about 338 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: sort of Blair Mountain on behind the Bachelor's before, right, 339 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: Like there are just open wars between the like literally 340 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: capitalist armies and sort of union armies, armies formed by 341 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: labor unions, not like the union army. Like you need 342 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: to clarify this. 343 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the great anti capitalist of the union army. 344 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: And a big part of what FDR is like running 345 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: on like part of his platform is like, Okay, we 346 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: need to end this like era of gun thugs, right, 347 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: Like we can't have these fucking like robber barons running 348 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: around with their private armies killing people. And like, yeah, 349 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: that's obviously good, right, But his solution to this is, again, 350 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: we're going to centralize all of the violence into the police, 351 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: and unfortunately for sort of the rest of us. Right, 352 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: if you're going to maintain like a capitalist system, somebody 353 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: has to be pulling the triggers, and that's now the 354 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: police instead of these sort of like private armies. And 355 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: the other part about this bargain is that the unions 356 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: also have to basically disband their armies. Right, because the 357 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: miners are Blurbountain, right, they have like seventeen thousand guys, 358 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,719 Speaker 1: like all of them have rifles. They will go out 359 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: and they will fight. They have machine guns, like they 360 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: have cannons. 361 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's FDR who begins the gun control in 362 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: the US with the National Firearms Act of nineteen thirty four. Right, 363 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: Like they talk a lot about prohibition are of violence, right, 364 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 2: but what happens at Black Mountain is why you have 365 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: the NFA. 366 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so what you have it's the same process, 367 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: the process of sort of turning mutual aid into state programs. Right. 368 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: Walls is very explicitly doing this, right. I saw people 369 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: talking about how like, oh, he's achieved the dream of 370 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: the Black Panthers, like free breakfast program by like making 371 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: it into the state, and it's like, no, you don't understand. 372 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: The reason the panthers were doing that was to build 373 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: the roots of an autonomous society. The reason the state 374 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: is doing that is so that you don't fucking revolt 375 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: and you don't do twenty twenty again. 376 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, these are different things. 377 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is something that as the US welfare 378 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: state cycles through, you get various versions of this. There 379 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: is another version of this that is the products and 380 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: services that support this podcast by centralizing all of your 381 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: money into their pockets and the music of the higher 382 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: security guards. We're back. So the Great Society was just 383 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: Johnson's sort of like big We're gonna end poverty thing. 384 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: You know, he's doing the Vietnam War at the same time, 385 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: so you know, those are the sort of domestic kind 386 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: of returns. The stuff in the central station of state 387 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: violence is now being projected out and in the US 388 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: it's always happening, right. The US fundamentally is a project 389 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: of colonial expansion, going from fucking one coast to the other, 390 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 1: killing everyone in your path and seizing their land. And 391 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: the contradiction of this right the fact that like the 392 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: people who nominally want sort of welfare state also normally 393 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: are like revolted at the fact that they're burning millions 394 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: of people alive, and like Vietnam, Cabodia and Laos, Like, 395 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: this contradiction is kind of what terrors a part of 396 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: social democractic politics and what replaces it is. You know, 397 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: like if social democracy is a carrot and a stick, right, 398 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: neoliberalism is just the stick. It's just more prisons and 399 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: hit you with the thing instead of this sort of 400 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: like more genteel process of while we're still hitting you 401 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: with the stick. But also here are these handouts if 402 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: you don't like oppose us. Yeah, so we've talked about 403 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 1: these examples. I want to kind of move into some 404 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: more modern examples of this because I think everything I've 405 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: been saying is old, right, but this stuff is still 406 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: happening today in the social democracies that exist, right. Like 407 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: one of the biggest examples of this is there's two 408 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 1: kinds of social democracies that people point to, depending on 409 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: where in the political spectrum they are. One is like 410 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: the Nordic countries, right. And this never worked on me 411 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: because one of my foundational experiences, like as an activist, 412 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: when I was like a little baby at fifteen year 413 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 1: old in twenty thirteen was talking to someone who had 414 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: a mounted cavalry charge done against them by the Swedish 415 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: police because they were doing an anti fascist action and 416 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: they got trampled by fucking horses because that's what the 417 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: state is. And you know, so like that's like kind 418 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: of on the one hand, but the thing that we're 419 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: seeing right now is, you know, the remains of the 420 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: welfare state being paired with this incredible, like rabid anti 421 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: immigrant violence, right, and this is the thing you see 422 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: in place like France too, right, where you still sort 423 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: of have the welfare state. It's also this unbelievable violence 424 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: against sort of non white people and anyone who's trying 425 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: to like enter the country. Yeah, I think it's was 426 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: it Sweden or was it Denmark that had these laws 427 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: were like they would like seize the property if any 428 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: immigrant who came into the country. 429 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: Jesus, I don't remember that. I know more people who 430 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: have migrated to Sweden. I think it might have been anymore. 431 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 2: I'm not familiar. 432 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're also part of the sort of broader like 433 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: European border project, which is unbelievably violent, and you're getting 434 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: this with walls too, Right, he's signing on to sort 435 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: of Kamala Harris's like fucking terrifying fascist border violence. And 436 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: that's again because like all of this project is tied 437 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: in with state centralizations. Well, okay, so what happens when 438 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: you centralize the state. The answer is it starts enforcing 439 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: its borders. Yeah, in order to sort of like create 440 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: underclasses of incredibly dispossessed and incredibly battered and brutalized people 441 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: who can be splitted for labor. 442 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, like people who are insecure with respect to the state, right, 443 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: so they can be ye by the state or by capitalism. 444 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: This important the state. Yeah, and you know, obviously, like 445 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: the US is sort of one of the global pioneers, 446 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: but like the norder, social democracies are also really sort 447 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: of part and parcel of the system. The other things 448 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: I want to turn to here is is Latin American 449 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: social democracies, because I talked about this at length in 450 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: the Brazil episodes. Right, Brazilian social democracy Lula's like first term, right, 451 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: has simultaneously this massive sort of push and social spending 452 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: and then also enormous like a budget increases for the military. 453 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: There's this incredible unbelievable spike in police violence, like rate 454 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: of police killings is way worse than the US. Yeah, 455 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: and this is true, and like fucking all of these places, 456 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: right Like, this is truly how the crew worked in 457 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: twenty twenty was because the Bolivian government kept just like 458 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: handing money to the police over and over again, and 459 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 1: the police like did a cue against them. 460 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 3: Right. 461 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: This is also true in Venezuela, which is like unbelievable 462 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: rates of police killing like terrifying. 463 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I was there after the revolution, but I 464 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: saw some of this happening, right, the revolution going from 465 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 2: spontaneity and work is controlled on people's control to a 466 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: degree to like being cot which happens in almost every 467 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: revolution that we've seen. Yeah, right, it begins with the 468 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 2: people and then it becomes co opted by the state. 469 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 2: It's whild to see like the equipment and weapons of 470 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: their police on one hand, and then the poverty of 471 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 2: yeah folks that they are policing on the other. 472 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: And then this has also been Omlo's thing in Mexico, right, like, 473 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: even though he came in on the like hugs not 474 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: Bullets campaign, which for something comprehensible reasons, you still see 475 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: like the fucking Washington Post writing about Omlo talking about 476 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: how he was doing like hugs not bullets, Like she 477 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: never she there was not a single day where he 478 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: implemented that shit. She came in and immediately was like, Hey, 479 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: the army, do you want control of even more of 480 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: the country. 481 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, it was very funny when Omla came in, 482 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: right and he was doing get like hugs not bullets 483 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 2: the English translation. And then simultaneously I was getting press 484 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: releases being like, we have deployed several thousand more troops 485 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: to the Tijuana area, come to the parade, and I 486 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: was like, good, no, look are they huggers? They send 487 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: in their tactico cut. 488 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: Lula does this exact same thing in Haiti where he 489 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: goes to Haiti and he plays soccer with these kids 490 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: and he says, we will show them another way. And 491 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: then just like in the back route are all the 492 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: armored vehicles from the resilient occupation of Haiti. 493 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 2: It's just like, well, oh my god, this showing them something. 494 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: Think yeah. And so the tie between this absorption of 495 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: socialist politics into the state, you know, and this sort 496 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: of centralization and increasing of state violence is something that 497 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: continues to today. And you know, we're now kind of 498 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: in the last decades, probably too strong, but roughly decade 499 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: we're kind of seeing social democrats like who want to 500 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: break out of this in the form of the kind 501 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: of like moderate abolitionists. So these are the people who are, 502 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, whose thing is like, Okay, we're going to 503 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: defund the police and we're going to like reallocate their 504 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: resources to like funding welfare programs. And this is like, 505 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: obviously this would be good. But if you know anything 506 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: about what happened after twenty twenty, none of this stuff 507 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: ever happened, right, No one ever defunded the police, right, 508 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: Like there was no sort of movement. 509 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 2: We defunded the libraries. 510 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 1: And yeah, but even on a fundamental level, like, I 511 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: don't believe that this can work. And the reason I 512 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: don't believe that this can work is because in order 513 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: to have a state that functions, you need an apparat 514 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: of violence it can inflict on its subjects. I'm going 515 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: to turn here, Oh, this is a joke. You're probably 516 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: not going to get. 517 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: Oh. 518 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: No, I'm going to turn here to feigned political philosopher 519 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: Brennan Lee Bulligan. Quote. Laws are threats made by the 520 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: dominant socioeconomic ethnic group in a given nation. It's just 521 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: a promise of violence as an act in the police 522 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: are basically an occupying army. You know what I mean. 523 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 2: Is I'm aware of this, dude. He plays a ton 524 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: yes dragons on the internet. 525 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: Occasionally he says something that's right. And you know, the 526 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: important thing about this is that, you know, without without 527 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: the thread of violence behind it, right, laws are just suggestions. 528 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: You can't have a state without an apparatus of violence. 529 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: You can't stay in power without one. And this has 530 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 1: always been the sort of central contradiction of soci democracy. Right. 531 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: In order for Walls to have his sort of like 532 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: pretty sparkling programs, he needs to have the cops to 533 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: destroy you if you attempt to do anything different. And 534 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: this is what twenty twenty was, right. Twenty twenty was 535 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: was the most serious uprising in the US, like the 536 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: most serious like challenge the authority of the sort of 537 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: drychnically anti black like settler American state, right, and it 538 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: was something that promised something different and even in you know, 539 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: and that meant that everyone, whether you were a fucking 540 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: like hardline fascist or you know, you were Tim Walls, Right, 541 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: your one goal was to smash it and was to 542 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: deploy state violent. The state violence you had in your hands, 543 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: which in this case was a National Guard, was to 544 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: send them in to make sure that these people never 545 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: fucking burden their police station again. And that's what happens. 546 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 2: It's like obviously, like the ability to have I've been 547 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 2: thinking about this a lot because I've been writing a 548 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,479 Speaker 2: book and I'm really trying to get it finished, so 549 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 2: I've been writing it a lot. And like when a conflict, 550 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 2: be it one within a country or between countries, stops 551 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 2: being between states or about what the state should do, 552 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: and stops being about weather the state should be, then 553 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: we see the entire state system like pivoting on all 554 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: its suggesting morals right and just being like, no, we 555 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: cannot allow this to happen. And I think we've seen 556 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: that domestically to a degree in the US. 557 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 3: Right. 558 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 2: But like the state can't abolish itself, state won't abolish itself. 559 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: The scene qua non of the state. Its ability to 560 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 2: lock you up, beat you up, or shoot you up 561 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 2: if you do what they don't want, and that will 562 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: always be the state as a matter. If it's got 563 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 2: like a hammer and sickle or like your based fucking 564 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 2: Vasha or Alassat or whatever, like the state will still 565 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: come and kill you if you become a threat to it. 566 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the solution to what hopefully will be 567 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: the title of this episode. Why did Tim Walz call 568 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: the National Guard? And the answer is to make sure 569 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: that you're never going to be free. 570 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 3: It could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 571 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from. 572 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 3: Cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, 573 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 574 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 575 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at polzonemedia dot 576 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 3: com slash sources. Thanks for listening.