1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,196 --> 00:00:27,556 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,036 --> 00:00:33,156 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. As loyal listeners know this fall on 4 00:00:33,276 --> 00:00:36,676 Speaker 1: Deep Background. We ran a mini series called Deep Bench 5 00:00:37,116 --> 00:00:40,316 Speaker 1: about how a club for lawyers called the Federalist Society 6 00:00:40,516 --> 00:00:45,676 Speaker 1: became the most powerful legal organization in the country. My 7 00:00:45,756 --> 00:00:48,636 Speaker 1: producers and I have turned this series into an audio 8 00:00:48,716 --> 00:00:53,396 Speaker 1: book called Takeover, How a Conservative student club captured the 9 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:56,956 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. You can get it on Pushkin's website, Pushkin 10 00:00:57,036 --> 00:01:00,876 Speaker 1: dot FM, or on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. 11 00:01:01,956 --> 00:01:05,676 Speaker 1: The Federalist Society was started thirty five years ago, roughly 12 00:01:06,116 --> 00:01:10,996 Speaker 1: after a successful surprising conference of conservative law students at 13 00:01:11,076 --> 00:01:14,956 Speaker 1: Yale University. I tell you all about it in the audiobook. 14 00:01:15,836 --> 00:01:19,556 Speaker 1: To celebrate the audio books released today, I'm speaking to 15 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 1: Eugene Meyer, the President and CEO of the Federalist Society. 16 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:28,676 Speaker 1: Gene has been deeply involved the Federalist Society literally since 17 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:32,156 Speaker 1: it came into existence, as you will here in our conversation, 18 00:01:32,396 --> 00:01:35,316 Speaker 1: and he is uniquely well placed to talk about the 19 00:01:35,356 --> 00:01:38,676 Speaker 1: trajectory of the institution in the past and into the future. 20 00:01:42,556 --> 00:01:45,436 Speaker 1: Gene thank you so much for joining me. I'm really 21 00:01:45,436 --> 00:01:48,716 Speaker 1: grateful to you. I want to start by asking you 22 00:01:48,796 --> 00:01:51,676 Speaker 1: about your own experience with the Federalist Society. I know 23 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:54,396 Speaker 1: you've been working with the organization in one capacity or another, 24 00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:57,116 Speaker 1: all the way up to president and CEO for thirty 25 00:01:57,236 --> 00:02:00,996 Speaker 1: years or so. How did you get started with the Federalists? Well, 26 00:02:01,036 --> 00:02:03,716 Speaker 1: it's really thirty five years, and it's you know, these 27 00:02:03,796 --> 00:02:05,596 Speaker 1: young law students started this thing out a couple of 28 00:02:05,676 --> 00:02:10,676 Speaker 1: years old. During day. Asked me, gee, as we're leaving school, 29 00:02:10,796 --> 00:02:13,356 Speaker 1: we want to have somebody running this full time, just 30 00:02:13,516 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 1: out of college, you know, because we're going to be involved, 31 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:18,236 Speaker 1: but we've got our careers were starting. Do you have 32 00:02:18,276 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 1: any ideas? And I said, I think you're making mistake. 33 00:02:21,636 --> 00:02:24,076 Speaker 1: I think you want someone just a little bit more experienced. 34 00:02:24,236 --> 00:02:26,396 Speaker 1: And they said, okay, that makes sense. Do you have 35 00:02:26,436 --> 00:02:29,916 Speaker 1: any ideas? I suggested someone to them, They interviewed him, 36 00:02:29,996 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 1: they made him an offer, and they came back to 37 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:34,396 Speaker 1: me and said, well, it was a good idea, and 38 00:02:34,396 --> 00:02:35,836 Speaker 1: we made the guy an offer, but he ended up 39 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:37,996 Speaker 1: turning us down for something else. Do you have any 40 00:02:37,996 --> 00:02:40,756 Speaker 1: other ideas? At which point I became and only some 41 00:02:40,836 --> 00:02:42,436 Speaker 1: of your listeners were kept this. But at this point 42 00:02:42,476 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 1: I became Dick Cheney. That's exactly where I was going. 43 00:02:47,396 --> 00:02:50,836 Speaker 1: And you know, that's where I started. I was essentially 44 00:02:50,836 --> 00:02:54,236 Speaker 1: the CEO from the beginning, because this is one person office. 45 00:02:54,516 --> 00:02:57,996 Speaker 1: But I didn't know. I wasn't a lawyer. I didn't 46 00:02:57,996 --> 00:03:01,756 Speaker 1: know a lot about law. I didn't know a political philosophy. 47 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:04,236 Speaker 1: I was very interested in things of that sort. And 48 00:03:04,276 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 1: everything else kind of get picked up along the way. 49 00:03:07,196 --> 00:03:10,716 Speaker 1: So you didn't you weren't apty so called conservative lawyers 50 00:03:10,716 --> 00:03:15,036 Speaker 1: Woodstock the first Federalist Society convention in New Haven. How 51 00:03:15,076 --> 00:03:16,636 Speaker 1: did you happen to know these folks? Did you know 52 00:03:16,676 --> 00:03:19,676 Speaker 1: them from conservative politics or from political philosophy? Couple them 53 00:03:19,716 --> 00:03:22,036 Speaker 1: from college? I see? And where did you go to 54 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:25,276 Speaker 1: college with them? To Yale? And actually the very funny 55 00:03:25,276 --> 00:03:28,316 Speaker 1: things I was at the first symposium. Ah, there you are, 56 00:03:28,516 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 1: frankly more as a warm body friends with them. They needed, 57 00:03:32,876 --> 00:03:36,596 Speaker 1: they wanted attendance. I went, but I went out of 58 00:03:36,956 --> 00:03:38,956 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I wasn't uninterested, but it wasn't 59 00:03:38,996 --> 00:03:41,756 Speaker 1: something I would have gone doing the abstract And what 60 00:03:41,916 --> 00:03:43,956 Speaker 1: did you study it? Yeah? Did you study political philosophy? 61 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 1: I had to some political philosophy, also some history. Tell me, 62 00:03:47,996 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 1: with that arc of history and mind really having been 63 00:03:51,076 --> 00:03:54,356 Speaker 1: there from the very very beginning, what does the Federalist 64 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 1: society mean to you today? To take a brief detour 65 00:03:58,996 --> 00:04:02,276 Speaker 1: to say, I definitely enjoyed very much listening to your book, 66 00:04:02,596 --> 00:04:05,196 Speaker 1: and I do have a couple thoughts about it, but 67 00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:06,916 Speaker 1: they'll come up in the course of our good I'm 68 00:04:06,956 --> 00:04:09,556 Speaker 1: looking forward to hearing them very much. So I think 69 00:04:09,996 --> 00:04:11,436 Speaker 1: there are a lot of different ways to answer to 70 00:04:11,476 --> 00:04:13,596 Speaker 1: that question, but one thing I think I would say is, 71 00:04:14,156 --> 00:04:17,996 Speaker 1: I think one key part of the Federal side from 72 00:04:18,036 --> 00:04:22,836 Speaker 1: the beginning has been a genuine belief that debate and 73 00:04:22,876 --> 00:04:28,596 Speaker 1: discussion lead ultimately to better public policy. That while they 74 00:04:28,596 --> 00:04:30,916 Speaker 1: are all kinds of other ways people form their ideas, 75 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:36,036 Speaker 1: reason and serious discussion is really really helpful, both because 76 00:04:36,636 --> 00:04:41,756 Speaker 1: you test your ideas against others and hopefully you learn 77 00:04:42,196 --> 00:04:45,116 Speaker 1: from what they say and they learn from what you say. 78 00:04:45,636 --> 00:04:48,836 Speaker 1: This is sort of old standard cliche, but I think 79 00:04:48,916 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 1: nonetheless true, and I think to me the Federal Site 80 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 1: is about getting very important views about the law heard 81 00:05:00,076 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 1: and a time when, in general, except for our activities, 82 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:06,116 Speaker 1: many of those views have not been heard. I have 83 00:05:06,156 --> 00:05:08,836 Speaker 1: to say what you're saying does resonate strongly for me 84 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:12,076 Speaker 1: that at every Federalist Society event that I've been to 85 00:05:12,236 --> 00:05:14,996 Speaker 1: or participated in, and there have been scores and maybe 86 00:05:15,076 --> 00:05:17,036 Speaker 1: more than a hundred over the course of my time 87 00:05:17,076 --> 00:05:20,076 Speaker 1: as the lawyer in law professor, there is always an 88 00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:24,036 Speaker 1: emphasis on multiple points of view being represented, and often 89 00:05:24,116 --> 00:05:26,716 Speaker 1: I'm invited to speak, and you know that already is 90 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:28,756 Speaker 1: a sign of different points of view, because my view 91 00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:31,596 Speaker 1: is often, not always, but often are really divergent from 92 00:05:31,596 --> 00:05:34,556 Speaker 1: those of Federal Society members. So what you say resonates. 93 00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:38,676 Speaker 1: At the same time, you can easily imagine starting an 94 00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:40,956 Speaker 1: organization that was kind of a club for the discussion 95 00:05:40,996 --> 00:05:47,436 Speaker 1: of legal ideas, that didn't begin with certain propositions about 96 00:05:47,556 --> 00:05:49,516 Speaker 1: the right way to interpret the law, the right way 97 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:52,916 Speaker 1: to interpret the Constitution, and that didn't describe itself as 98 00:05:52,956 --> 00:05:57,076 Speaker 1: an organization that isn't only for conservatives and libertarians, but 99 00:05:57,156 --> 00:06:01,716 Speaker 1: that mentions conservatives and libertarians and itself description. So I 100 00:06:01,716 --> 00:06:03,556 Speaker 1: think there might be some listeners who say, well, that's 101 00:06:03,636 --> 00:06:06,116 Speaker 1: that's a great way to talk about one aspect of 102 00:06:06,116 --> 00:06:10,756 Speaker 1: the Federal Society. But surely they would say it's slightly 103 00:06:10,876 --> 00:06:14,236 Speaker 1: hiding the ball with respect to the conclusions that you 104 00:06:14,316 --> 00:06:17,276 Speaker 1: and other Federal Society members hope people will reach when 105 00:06:17,316 --> 00:06:19,036 Speaker 1: they have her different points of view. That is, you 106 00:06:19,076 --> 00:06:21,716 Speaker 1: want people to hear different points of view and then 107 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:24,956 Speaker 1: adopt something within the family of views that are popular 108 00:06:24,996 --> 00:06:28,516 Speaker 1: within the organization. Would that be fair? It's a reasonably fair. 109 00:06:28,556 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 1: I mean, I like to think we're prepared to change 110 00:06:32,116 --> 00:06:34,916 Speaker 1: our views. What's the line when I get new facts 111 00:06:34,956 --> 00:06:36,756 Speaker 1: that country to my views, I change them. What do 112 00:06:36,796 --> 00:06:39,076 Speaker 1: you do, sir? What's the classic wine? Good? And Well, 113 00:06:39,076 --> 00:06:40,716 Speaker 1: we're gonna come to that. We're gonna come to changing 114 00:06:40,796 --> 00:06:44,516 Speaker 1: views too. So that's great, Yeah, hopefully. But in general, Yeah, 115 00:06:44,556 --> 00:06:46,236 Speaker 1: And one of the things I think would be true 116 00:06:46,276 --> 00:06:48,196 Speaker 1: not only of us, but of almost any group is 117 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:53,236 Speaker 1: that the world doesn't operate completely in abstracts. One of 118 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:58,236 Speaker 1: the reasons you get motivated to have discussions is because 119 00:06:58,276 --> 00:07:01,196 Speaker 1: you think your ideas are important and are good, and 120 00:07:01,276 --> 00:07:04,236 Speaker 1: you do want to test them against others and in 121 00:07:04,316 --> 00:07:06,716 Speaker 1: general persuade others. But at the same time, be aware 122 00:07:06,876 --> 00:07:08,996 Speaker 1: you might be persuaded if you don't start out with 123 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:11,116 Speaker 1: some kind of ideas about what you think the law 124 00:07:11,156 --> 00:07:15,116 Speaker 1: should be or whatever. You probably wouldn't be motivated to 125 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 1: really start something like this, although perhaps he would. But 126 00:07:17,956 --> 00:07:23,076 Speaker 1: I'd say empirically, there'd be tremendous opening for an organization 127 00:07:23,396 --> 00:07:25,996 Speaker 1: that was committed to debate and discussion of ideas, that 128 00:07:26,196 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: was genuinely agnostic completely about what it believed. And I 129 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:32,756 Speaker 1: don't know of any like that. Really, It's probably not 130 00:07:32,796 --> 00:07:35,556 Speaker 1: a coincidence. I mean, even something like science, which is 131 00:07:35,596 --> 00:07:38,716 Speaker 1: in theory just trying to find the truth. Most of 132 00:07:38,716 --> 00:07:42,356 Speaker 1: the time people get involved in pursuing a scientific theory 133 00:07:42,556 --> 00:07:44,596 Speaker 1: because they believe that theory is going to turn out 134 00:07:44,636 --> 00:07:47,396 Speaker 1: to be correct. Sometimes they find is false and they 135 00:07:47,396 --> 00:07:52,876 Speaker 1: correct themselves. Gene, every organization just about that organizes people 136 00:07:53,236 --> 00:07:56,716 Speaker 1: for action, at least in part deals with the question 137 00:07:56,716 --> 00:07:58,716 Speaker 1: of how much of your time are you spending trying 138 00:07:58,716 --> 00:08:02,476 Speaker 1: to convert the unconverted and how much of your time 139 00:08:02,516 --> 00:08:06,796 Speaker 1: are you spending trying to build group agreement and solidarity 140 00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 1: among people who are rough like minded. And I think 141 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 1: the Federal Society does both of those things. How do 142 00:08:13,796 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 1: you think about the balance between those two And the 143 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:18,316 Speaker 1: reason I ask you that is that many outside observers, 144 00:08:18,396 --> 00:08:21,956 Speaker 1: myself included, think of the success of the Federal Society 145 00:08:22,516 --> 00:08:26,556 Speaker 1: in transforming the Federal Judiciary as to a large extent, 146 00:08:27,116 --> 00:08:31,436 Speaker 1: the product of the second, the group solidarity, rather than 147 00:08:31,796 --> 00:08:33,476 Speaker 1: the first, where you go out and try to preach 148 00:08:33,516 --> 00:08:35,956 Speaker 1: to the unconverted. Yeah, I mean, I suppose in any 149 00:08:36,036 --> 00:08:38,116 Speaker 1: organization there's some of both. I guess what I would 150 00:08:38,156 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 1: say on that a little bit is that I think 151 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:43,076 Speaker 1: it's more in some ways even more complicent in what 152 00:08:43,196 --> 00:08:46,916 Speaker 1: you're saying. But what may possible a lot of the 153 00:08:46,996 --> 00:08:50,476 Speaker 1: sort of more practical results you're talking about is some 154 00:08:50,556 --> 00:08:53,916 Speaker 1: degree of success in the form of having the ideas 155 00:08:53,956 --> 00:08:56,716 Speaker 1: become a key part of the discussion. You would not 156 00:08:56,836 --> 00:09:00,156 Speaker 1: have a lot of people who are basically philosophy is 157 00:09:00,236 --> 00:09:03,516 Speaker 1: basically originalist on the bench if there weren't people who 158 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: had come to believe in that basic philosophy. That's certainly true. 159 00:09:08,436 --> 00:09:10,916 Speaker 1: You need a number of people who hold that view. 160 00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 1: I mean, if you go to an American law school 161 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:15,996 Speaker 1: still to this day. I mean, one of the stated 162 00:09:15,996 --> 00:09:17,756 Speaker 1: goals of the Federal Society from the beginning was to 163 00:09:17,756 --> 00:09:21,756 Speaker 1: increase intellectual diversity within American law schools. I would say 164 00:09:21,836 --> 00:09:24,116 Speaker 1: that's one of the only goals of the Federal society 165 00:09:24,116 --> 00:09:27,996 Speaker 1: that's had only really moderate success. I mean, there are, 166 00:09:28,036 --> 00:09:32,036 Speaker 1: of course professors who are originalists and textualists at American 167 00:09:32,116 --> 00:09:34,796 Speaker 1: law schools more than there were thirty five years ago, 168 00:09:35,196 --> 00:09:38,356 Speaker 1: but they're nothing like a majority. What you do have 169 00:09:38,516 --> 00:09:42,116 Speaker 1: are a lot of really smart students graduating from those 170 00:09:42,156 --> 00:09:43,956 Speaker 1: goals at the top of their classes, who then go 171 00:09:44,036 --> 00:09:46,996 Speaker 1: on having been members of the Federal Society clerk for 172 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: judges who are either loosely or less loosely affiliated with 173 00:09:49,876 --> 00:09:52,876 Speaker 1: the Federalist Society, and end up clerking for the Supreme Court, 174 00:09:53,596 --> 00:09:55,996 Speaker 1: and then a few years down the road end up 175 00:09:56,036 --> 00:09:58,836 Speaker 1: as judges and now as justices themselves. And I mean, 176 00:09:59,036 --> 00:10:02,396 Speaker 1: the extraordinary thing, at least from my generation over the 177 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:05,276 Speaker 1: four years of the Trump administration via the Federal Society 178 00:10:05,356 --> 00:10:09,596 Speaker 1: is just how many of the really smart, really elite 179 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 1: Federal Society conservatives in my generational cohort ended up on 180 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:18,156 Speaker 1: the Federal bench and on the Supreme Court. I mean, 181 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:23,276 Speaker 1: that is extraordinarily striking, and that's got to be a product. 182 00:10:23,276 --> 00:10:25,636 Speaker 1: In part, you have to have them, but they also 183 00:10:25,676 --> 00:10:27,716 Speaker 1: have to know each other and being solidarity with each other. 184 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:29,796 Speaker 1: I think one of the things is a lot of 185 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 1: our events including our National Convention, but also including many 186 00:10:34,236 --> 00:10:37,916 Speaker 1: many other events around the country help facilitate people getting 187 00:10:37,916 --> 00:10:40,076 Speaker 1: to know each other. That is key in any endeavor. 188 00:10:40,156 --> 00:10:43,276 Speaker 1: You know, if you have one really smart person working 189 00:10:43,276 --> 00:10:48,036 Speaker 1: in isolation, they're very unlikely to be anywhere near at productors. 190 00:10:48,036 --> 00:10:49,636 Speaker 1: They will be if you have four or five of 191 00:10:49,636 --> 00:10:51,836 Speaker 1: them in sort of in a group, working together and 192 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 1: feeding off of each other. I want to ask about 193 00:10:54,236 --> 00:10:58,276 Speaker 1: the National Convention. One of the episodes in the podcast, 194 00:10:58,276 --> 00:11:01,236 Speaker 1: which became a chapter in the book, focuses on the 195 00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:07,276 Speaker 1: story of Randy Barnett, law professor at Georgetown, who came 196 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:11,436 Speaker 1: up with an idea for the unconstitutionality of the individual 197 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:16,196 Speaker 1: mandate provision of the Affordable Care Act in conversation with 198 00:11:16,276 --> 00:11:21,476 Speaker 1: people in the hallway at the Mayflower Hotel at your 199 00:11:21,516 --> 00:11:24,796 Speaker 1: big national Convention, and then worked with people affiliated with 200 00:11:24,836 --> 00:11:29,396 Speaker 1: the organization to help make that idea broadly known, and 201 00:11:29,436 --> 00:11:32,156 Speaker 1: then ultimately five justices of the Supreme Court did adopt 202 00:11:32,196 --> 00:11:35,276 Speaker 1: that idea in the Court's opinion. How does the National 203 00:11:35,356 --> 00:11:39,596 Speaker 1: Convention function in relation to the overall project of the 204 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:41,196 Speaker 1: Federal Society. What does it feel like to you to 205 00:11:41,236 --> 00:11:44,036 Speaker 1: go to it every year? Well, it is a function 206 00:11:44,116 --> 00:11:47,796 Speaker 1: of bringing together a lot of people to share ideas 207 00:11:47,916 --> 00:11:49,556 Speaker 1: and to get to know each other. And then there's 208 00:11:49,556 --> 00:11:52,916 Speaker 1: no question that conversations in the hallway are a key 209 00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:55,556 Speaker 1: part of the convention. As one of the reasons why 210 00:11:55,716 --> 00:11:57,916 Speaker 1: we're very sad about this last year we couldn't have 211 00:11:57,956 --> 00:12:00,756 Speaker 1: it in person one. We still have the substance, but 212 00:12:00,836 --> 00:12:03,596 Speaker 1: it's not the same. Yes, problem with zoom. There's no 213 00:12:03,636 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 1: back channels on Zoom. Yeah, it's just the way it 214 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:11,036 Speaker 1: is for right now. I think it's an extremely important 215 00:12:11,036 --> 00:12:14,676 Speaker 1: part of things. But I would also say that the 216 00:12:14,836 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 1: vast majority of our activities are ones you do not 217 00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 1: read about, and the vast majority of our members have 218 00:12:22,036 --> 00:12:24,836 Speaker 1: never been to a convention. Most of our activities do 219 00:12:24,916 --> 00:12:28,196 Speaker 1: not take place in Washington, d C. There are two 220 00:12:28,236 --> 00:12:32,356 Speaker 1: hundred chapters students and one hundred lawyers chapters and practice 221 00:12:32,396 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 1: groups that all run all kinds of kids. We have 222 00:12:35,916 --> 00:12:38,996 Speaker 1: over a thousand meetings a year in law schools, and 223 00:12:39,276 --> 00:12:41,876 Speaker 1: an awful lot of what happens it's really important and 224 00:12:41,876 --> 00:12:48,116 Speaker 1: really valuable happens there. And Washington being Washington, Convention being there, 225 00:12:48,356 --> 00:12:51,676 Speaker 1: there's always some degree of political overaly that's much much 226 00:12:51,756 --> 00:12:54,756 Speaker 1: less than in other places. When you think about the 227 00:12:54,796 --> 00:12:58,876 Speaker 1: relationship between those gatherings, especially the law school gatherings, and 228 00:12:58,916 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 1: then the moments when you have a conservative president and 229 00:13:04,756 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 1: a Senate rijority of Republicans and raft of conservative judicial appointments, 230 00:13:12,996 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 1: how do you think of the connection between those things. 231 00:13:15,076 --> 00:13:17,316 Speaker 1: Because I'll tell you from the standpoint of students, both 232 00:13:17,316 --> 00:13:18,676 Speaker 1: when I was a student and when I see my 233 00:13:18,676 --> 00:13:23,276 Speaker 1: own students, they see a close connection. They think, if 234 00:13:23,316 --> 00:13:25,796 Speaker 1: I go to these events, I'll meet the right people. 235 00:13:26,396 --> 00:13:29,156 Speaker 1: I'll know who the right judges are to clerk for 236 00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: if I then do really well in law school. It's 237 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:33,556 Speaker 1: not enough just to go. You also have to be smart. 238 00:13:34,036 --> 00:13:36,516 Speaker 1: Then I'll have a good shot by putting Federal Society 239 00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 1: on my resume of signaling to the judge where I 240 00:13:39,316 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 1: am on the political spectrum, getting a clerkshire for those judges, 241 00:13:44,036 --> 00:13:49,556 Speaker 1: and then entering the kind of core group of highly credentialed, 242 00:13:49,676 --> 00:13:54,556 Speaker 1: highly smart, elite young lawyers, and then ending up as 243 00:13:54,596 --> 00:13:57,836 Speaker 1: one of those judges someday. So I think that's how 244 00:13:57,836 --> 00:14:00,236 Speaker 1: it looks to a great extent from the student's perspective. 245 00:14:00,276 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 1: How does it look from the organization's perspective. I'm trying 246 00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:08,276 Speaker 1: to think how to answer that, you know, reasonably accurately, 247 00:14:08,356 --> 00:14:13,436 Speaker 1: because it is certainly something which happens in some cases. Look, 248 00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:16,836 Speaker 1: I think the other the one component there in terms 249 00:14:16,876 --> 00:14:20,276 Speaker 1: of federal site types that you didn't mention is a 250 00:14:20,316 --> 00:14:24,556 Speaker 1: pretty deep interest in public policy and you know, a 251 00:14:24,676 --> 00:14:27,876 Speaker 1: belief in a general set of ideas, which as you know, 252 00:14:28,236 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 1: they're why difference within the federal society, but a belief 253 00:14:31,076 --> 00:14:33,476 Speaker 1: in a general set of ideas that cause you to 254 00:14:33,476 --> 00:14:37,756 Speaker 1: be motivated more in that way less in some other ways. 255 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:40,956 Speaker 1: I mean, the wisecrack we've encountered from time to time 256 00:14:40,956 --> 00:14:43,916 Speaker 1: when we've talked about they're not being as many federal 257 00:14:43,996 --> 00:14:46,716 Speaker 1: sidey types teaching law schools that should be, is well, 258 00:14:47,196 --> 00:14:49,996 Speaker 1: you know, these conservatives just more interested in earning money. 259 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:52,516 Speaker 1: I just don't think impurely that's quite right. I mean, 260 00:14:52,676 --> 00:14:55,196 Speaker 1: there's an interest in earning money as people are across 261 00:14:55,236 --> 00:14:57,596 Speaker 1: the board, but I think there's a lot where that's 262 00:14:57,636 --> 00:14:59,636 Speaker 1: not there. Yeah, they're also fewer. I mean, just to 263 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:02,516 Speaker 1: be very clear about it, When I have a brilliant 264 00:15:02,556 --> 00:15:04,596 Speaker 1: young law student in a class and I don't know 265 00:15:04,636 --> 00:15:07,276 Speaker 1: what the students politics are, and the student comes to 266 00:15:07,316 --> 00:15:08,716 Speaker 1: me to get to know me, or to become a 267 00:15:08,756 --> 00:15:11,996 Speaker 1: research system, or to discuss something in class. As I 268 00:15:12,036 --> 00:15:14,836 Speaker 1: get to know the person over time, I always I 269 00:15:14,916 --> 00:15:16,796 Speaker 1: never asked directly, but I always think, in the back 270 00:15:16,836 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 1: of my mind, Gee, I wonder if this person's politics 271 00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:22,436 Speaker 1: are roughly speaking, liberal, in which case they're in the 272 00:15:22,476 --> 00:15:26,796 Speaker 1: majority and they could still get a great clerkship. But 273 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:30,156 Speaker 1: it's not going to be simple. There's a ton of competition, 274 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:33,236 Speaker 1: and if they're a very brilliant student and are pretty conservative, 275 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:36,036 Speaker 1: I actually rest easy because I know that this person 276 00:15:36,116 --> 00:15:38,396 Speaker 1: is going to get a great clerkship. Just as a 277 00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:42,156 Speaker 1: statistical matter, there are not as many at elite law 278 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:45,676 Speaker 1: schools students in total, and certainly as therefore as a 279 00:15:45,756 --> 00:15:48,076 Speaker 1: percentage of the total number of the really top students. 280 00:15:48,276 --> 00:15:51,396 Speaker 1: There are fewer conservatives, They are fewer Federal Society members. 281 00:15:51,436 --> 00:15:55,396 Speaker 1: Then there are kind of mainstream liberals, and so you know, 282 00:15:55,516 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 1: part of the reason that there are fewer law professors 283 00:15:58,436 --> 00:16:00,956 Speaker 1: is not just what people choose to do, but just 284 00:16:00,996 --> 00:16:04,716 Speaker 1: the raw numbers are smaller. There's probably some of that, 285 00:16:04,836 --> 00:16:07,916 Speaker 1: and there's also been some change over time, because there 286 00:16:07,996 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 1: was quite a period of time time where I think 287 00:16:10,116 --> 00:16:13,196 Speaker 1: in the early days of the Federal Society, Federal side 288 00:16:13,236 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 1: tape students had a tough time getting good clerkships, you know, 289 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:18,956 Speaker 1: for some of the same reasons you're saying they're doing 290 00:16:19,076 --> 00:16:21,556 Speaker 1: very well right now. Right there were fewer conservative judges 291 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:23,956 Speaker 1: and now there are lots of conservative judges. Yeah, so yeah, 292 00:16:23,996 --> 00:16:26,276 Speaker 1: that swings back and and there of course many many 293 00:16:26,356 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 1: judges don't pay any attention to political philosophy and hiring 294 00:16:29,836 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 1: in many others pace some it's a real range. Yeah, 295 00:16:32,236 --> 00:16:45,316 Speaker 1: but yes, we'll be right back. Let's talk about differences 296 00:16:45,316 --> 00:16:49,516 Speaker 1: of opinion, which you mentioned gene as among Federalists. And 297 00:16:49,556 --> 00:16:52,036 Speaker 1: I know many people told us in the course of 298 00:16:52,076 --> 00:16:55,676 Speaker 1: the research for the podcasts in the book that some 299 00:16:55,756 --> 00:16:58,516 Speaker 1: of these disagreements where they are from the beginning. But 300 00:16:58,716 --> 00:17:02,796 Speaker 1: broadly speaking, it seems to me that most members of 301 00:17:02,836 --> 00:17:06,636 Speaker 1: the Federal Society or are close affiliates, share the commitments 302 00:17:06,676 --> 00:17:10,796 Speaker 1: that Justice Scalia. The late Scalia had two three core 303 00:17:11,036 --> 00:17:19,156 Speaker 1: ideas originalism in interpreting the constitution, textualism in interpreting statutes, 304 00:17:19,676 --> 00:17:24,356 Speaker 1: and judicial restraint as a kind of overarching guideline for 305 00:17:25,356 --> 00:17:28,796 Speaker 1: judges avoiding reaching out to strike down statutes when it 306 00:17:28,836 --> 00:17:31,356 Speaker 1: can be avoided and trying to do as little as 307 00:17:31,356 --> 00:17:35,636 Speaker 1: possible as judges unless the law or the constitution squarely 308 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:38,956 Speaker 1: mandates that they do otherwise. Do you think that those 309 00:17:39,516 --> 00:17:44,756 Speaker 1: three principles remain the overall or overarching core of the 310 00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:49,756 Speaker 1: judicial philosophy that is roughly associated with the federal society 311 00:17:50,036 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 1: in the broadest sense. That's a reasonable statement. I would 312 00:17:53,396 --> 00:17:58,076 Speaker 1: say the judicial restraint part is the dices of the three. 313 00:17:58,156 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 1: There's been a split all along on that. Libertarians been 314 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:04,916 Speaker 1: much more dubious about it, and the term remains a 315 00:18:04,996 --> 00:18:07,636 Speaker 1: dicey term. What is a judge supposed to do? If 316 00:18:07,676 --> 00:18:11,236 Speaker 1: the judge thinks something's unconstitutional. The last ten things that 317 00:18:11,276 --> 00:18:14,436 Speaker 1: have come before all he thinks are unconstitutional, it is 318 00:18:14,436 --> 00:18:17,196 Speaker 1: supposed to say, after it's overturn five of them, the 319 00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:20,396 Speaker 1: next five, I need to be more restrained, you know. 320 00:18:20,476 --> 00:18:22,076 Speaker 1: I mean, that's sort of one of the questions that 321 00:18:22,116 --> 00:18:24,196 Speaker 1: can come up for a judge. So I think that's 322 00:18:24,476 --> 00:18:28,196 Speaker 1: less crystal clear, although it's definitely a factor that would 323 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:32,116 Speaker 1: be considered. I think the originalism is not universal. An 324 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:34,276 Speaker 1: element of it is in our statement of purpose, but 325 00:18:34,396 --> 00:18:37,116 Speaker 1: it's certainly not universal and not universal amongst our members. 326 00:18:37,156 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 1: But it is. It is widely believed and probably textuals 327 00:18:40,956 --> 00:18:43,036 Speaker 1: in the same basic thing is true. But once again, 328 00:18:43,076 --> 00:18:45,876 Speaker 1: there degrees of both. And there's also lots of battles 329 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 1: within originalism, as you know, and as it becomes very 330 00:18:48,836 --> 00:18:50,916 Speaker 1: clear in some of the court cases that come up. 331 00:18:51,236 --> 00:18:54,716 Speaker 1: Look for example at Bostock. Well, let's talk about Bostock. 332 00:18:54,796 --> 00:18:57,916 Speaker 1: That's a perfect example. That's the case decided by the 333 00:18:57,956 --> 00:19:01,796 Speaker 1: Supreme Court in the summer of twenty twenty about the 334 00:19:01,836 --> 00:19:05,836 Speaker 1: meaning of Title seven, the antidiscrimination provision of the Civil 335 00:19:05,876 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 1: Rights Act that says there may be no workplace discrimination 336 00:19:09,796 --> 00:19:13,556 Speaker 1: because of sex. And in that case, a six to 337 00:19:13,676 --> 00:19:17,116 Speaker 1: three majority of the Court, in an opinion written by 338 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:20,956 Speaker 1: Justice Neil Gorsuch, a Trump appointee, and joined by Chief 339 00:19:20,996 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 1: Justice John Roberts and then the other at the time 340 00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:28,156 Speaker 1: four liberals on the Court, held that the words because 341 00:19:28,156 --> 00:19:34,116 Speaker 1: of sex incorporate discrimination against gay and trans people. And 342 00:19:34,236 --> 00:19:37,396 Speaker 1: on the other side, the three dissenters were very, very 343 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:40,716 Speaker 1: pointed in saying that they thought that this decision was 344 00:19:40,756 --> 00:19:44,396 Speaker 1: a betrayal of Justice Scalia's principles of following the text 345 00:19:44,436 --> 00:19:46,916 Speaker 1: of the statute. And for his part, Justice Corsuch in 346 00:19:46,956 --> 00:19:50,236 Speaker 1: his opinion, said pretty clearly, I'm just following the text 347 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: at the statute. I'm just reading the words. So that 348 00:19:52,676 --> 00:19:56,836 Speaker 1: was an example of a deep disagreement among conservatives. What's 349 00:19:56,876 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 1: your sense of how that? What are the reverberations of 350 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:03,116 Speaker 1: Bostock right now, not just in the Federal Society's circles, 351 00:20:03,116 --> 00:20:05,676 Speaker 1: but more broadly and conservative legal thought. Well, I'm going 352 00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:08,476 Speaker 1: to take it more broader than just Bostock. I think 353 00:20:08,476 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 1: you're going to se that are coming up periodically, and 354 00:20:11,076 --> 00:20:14,836 Speaker 1: I think you're going to see differences amongst originals periodically. 355 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:18,476 Speaker 1: I mean, the two strongest originals on the court, Thomas 356 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:21,836 Speaker 1: and Scalia, definitely different on occasion rare occasion. I mean 357 00:20:21,876 --> 00:20:23,916 Speaker 1: I teach the handful of cases where they where they 358 00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:27,396 Speaker 1: disagreed in writing. Well, yeah, they're interesting, but I'm just 359 00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:30,396 Speaker 1: saying even those two different, and you're going to see 360 00:20:30,436 --> 00:20:32,716 Speaker 1: that from time to time. But one of the things 361 00:20:32,716 --> 00:20:34,436 Speaker 1: I'm actually going to jump here to what I was 362 00:20:34,476 --> 00:20:37,356 Speaker 1: getting to in your clean Things in your book, which 363 00:20:37,356 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 1: I did enjoy lots of, but the sort of theme 364 00:20:40,756 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 1: you have about well, the federal sites done these various things, 365 00:20:44,036 --> 00:20:47,716 Speaker 1: but right now it's heading into this period of a 366 00:20:47,796 --> 00:20:51,156 Speaker 1: lot of tension and possibly breaking up to some degree. 367 00:20:51,476 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 1: And there are two themes that seem to me to 368 00:20:53,796 --> 00:20:57,116 Speaker 1: be being developed. One is the theme that the Federal 369 00:20:57,196 --> 00:20:59,916 Speaker 1: Society has, and this is touched on a little bit 370 00:20:59,956 --> 00:21:02,996 Speaker 1: in your thing that maybe it's gotten more interested in 371 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:07,436 Speaker 1: results than an idea is or something like that seemed 372 00:21:07,476 --> 00:21:09,996 Speaker 1: to be a partial theme. Well, I don't think that 373 00:21:10,196 --> 00:21:12,116 Speaker 1: that of the organization generally. I just think that that 374 00:21:12,156 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: could be one of the lines that is posed in 375 00:21:15,116 --> 00:21:18,996 Speaker 1: a situation like the Bostock case. So clearly, Justice Corsuch, 376 00:21:19,356 --> 00:21:21,956 Speaker 1: I don't know what his private views are, but consistent 377 00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:24,236 Speaker 1: with the rest of his jurisprudence, which is very conservative, 378 00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:28,356 Speaker 1: this was a shocking outcome, and Justice Scrsuch didn't care 379 00:21:28,396 --> 00:21:30,316 Speaker 1: about that. He wasn't being result It seems to me 380 00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:33,476 Speaker 1: very problem. He's not being results oriented in holding in 381 00:21:33,516 --> 00:21:36,916 Speaker 1: favor effectively of gay and trans people. That seems like 382 00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:39,796 Speaker 1: I'm going to follow textism wherever it leads me. But 383 00:21:39,836 --> 00:21:41,396 Speaker 1: then on the other hand, you have voices, and I 384 00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:44,156 Speaker 1: think of Senator Josh Holly, who gave a very pointed 385 00:21:44,236 --> 00:21:46,836 Speaker 1: speech on the floor of the Senate in response to 386 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:50,596 Speaker 1: the decision, saying and I'm paraphrasing him, but we have 387 00:21:50,636 --> 00:21:52,916 Speaker 1: the exact quote in the book. He said, if this 388 00:21:52,956 --> 00:21:57,236 Speaker 1: is where legal conservatism is going, legals conservatism is dead 389 00:21:57,276 --> 00:21:59,676 Speaker 1: as we know it, because this is an outrageous outcome. 390 00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 1: Senator Holly speech was pointedly about results. Yeah, and I 391 00:22:04,476 --> 00:22:07,116 Speaker 1: guess one of the things that struck me a little 392 00:22:07,156 --> 00:22:10,836 Speaker 1: bit is there's simultaneously a little bit of a question 393 00:22:10,876 --> 00:22:14,756 Speaker 1: about being results of reated and a little bit of 394 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:19,796 Speaker 1: the question about, well, there's this divide in terms of 395 00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:23,756 Speaker 1: some of the Federal Society people or linked the Federals 396 00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:26,876 Speaker 1: site seem to different greatly from some other ones, and 397 00:22:27,916 --> 00:22:33,316 Speaker 1: those two are are sort of in conflict. And essentially, 398 00:22:33,476 --> 00:22:36,676 Speaker 1: I would say the second point tells the lie of 399 00:22:36,756 --> 00:22:39,636 Speaker 1: the first one. That is the fact of the matter 400 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:45,196 Speaker 1: is that the type of disagreements not necessarily boss Stock particularly, 401 00:22:45,076 --> 00:22:48,716 Speaker 1: I always hesitate to focus on one case because cases 402 00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:52,636 Speaker 1: are facts specific for the specific case, and they may 403 00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 1: not be a much more general trend. But the differences 404 00:22:56,516 --> 00:23:03,316 Speaker 1: on specific cases you reflect exactly what the organization has 405 00:23:03,356 --> 00:23:06,916 Speaker 1: emphasized over time, which is being serious about it is 406 00:23:06,956 --> 00:23:09,636 Speaker 1: discussing them, debating them. We know we won't always agree 407 00:23:09,756 --> 00:23:11,996 Speaker 1: or do we aspire to what we's agree. We do 408 00:23:12,076 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 1: aspire to generate serious conversation and generate it. You know, 409 00:23:17,156 --> 00:23:22,396 Speaker 1: understanding that the American Constitution and the principles enshrined did 410 00:23:22,396 --> 00:23:26,356 Speaker 1: it are the best way us human beings have yet 411 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:31,116 Speaker 1: devised for governing a country. And what keep that strong 412 00:23:31,516 --> 00:23:35,076 Speaker 1: by vigorous discussion and debate about it, but still paying 413 00:23:35,076 --> 00:23:37,476 Speaker 1: attention to what the text actually says. And if the 414 00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:41,836 Speaker 1: text is really a problem, if it's really wrong and 415 00:23:41,916 --> 00:23:44,316 Speaker 1: you've got a consensus that's wrong, you amend it. And 416 00:23:44,396 --> 00:23:46,596 Speaker 1: every time somebody says, well, gee, you can't amend this, 417 00:23:47,516 --> 00:23:49,636 Speaker 1: it's usually because the country is pretty split. You know, 418 00:23:49,676 --> 00:23:53,276 Speaker 1: if you have a situation where everybody really thinks something drawing, 419 00:23:53,316 --> 00:23:56,156 Speaker 1: if one of them if some horror you know, if 420 00:23:56,196 --> 00:23:59,756 Speaker 1: Brown versus Board or I shouldn't stay this on tape 421 00:23:59,756 --> 00:24:03,356 Speaker 1: because mis quoted. But if Brown versus Board were seven 422 00:24:03,396 --> 00:24:06,236 Speaker 1: how a reversed by the court, it would be passed 423 00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:10,076 Speaker 1: into law instantly, and now passed into laws. But probably 424 00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:12,796 Speaker 1: there'll be a constitutional amendment instant. Yeah. But most of 425 00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 1: the things everybody agrees on, and you know, the Constitution 426 00:24:15,436 --> 00:24:17,596 Speaker 1: is not going to be able. Yeah, I hear you, 427 00:24:17,836 --> 00:24:20,276 Speaker 1: and I hope you're right that we as a country 428 00:24:20,356 --> 00:24:24,876 Speaker 1: would be moral enough to reenact the idea that separate 429 00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:28,156 Speaker 1: is inherently is inherently unequal if it ever were to 430 00:24:28,316 --> 00:24:30,716 Speaker 1: come to that. You know, Heaven forbid, but I want 431 00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:34,076 Speaker 1: to I want to focus on, though, what you were 432 00:24:34,076 --> 00:24:36,476 Speaker 1: just saying, which I think is really interesting and important, 433 00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:40,596 Speaker 1: and it's this, you know, your statement of purpose makes 434 00:24:40,636 --> 00:24:43,596 Speaker 1: it really clear that the purpose of the judiciary, it's 435 00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:46,276 Speaker 1: province and duty is to say what the law is 436 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:50,396 Speaker 1: and not what it should be. And that proposition assumes 437 00:24:51,316 --> 00:24:54,836 Speaker 1: that we can say what the law is and distinguish 438 00:24:54,876 --> 00:24:57,396 Speaker 1: that from what the law should be. I mean, it's 439 00:24:57,396 --> 00:24:59,676 Speaker 1: a kind of commitment not just to doing it right, 440 00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:01,836 Speaker 1: but to it being possible to do it right. If 441 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:03,236 Speaker 1: you didn't think it were possible to do it right, 442 00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:05,356 Speaker 1: you'd be a bunch of liberal relativists like the people 443 00:25:05,396 --> 00:25:07,276 Speaker 1: I hang out with. Right, So you can't hold that 444 00:25:07,316 --> 00:25:08,476 Speaker 1: for You have to think it is possible to do 445 00:25:08,556 --> 00:25:11,116 Speaker 1: it right. And then you get a case and again 446 00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 1: we could use Bostock just as an example, but you 447 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:15,796 Speaker 1: get a case where the text is hard to interpret. 448 00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:19,116 Speaker 1: It says because of sex and on the one hand, 449 00:25:19,236 --> 00:25:22,916 Speaker 1: you have some conservative justices, and I would say the 450 00:25:22,956 --> 00:25:25,396 Speaker 1: justice course such as not just any old conservative, but 451 00:25:25,476 --> 00:25:30,556 Speaker 1: making a bid to inherit Justice Scalia's role as leading 452 00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:32,916 Speaker 1: intellectual conservative on the Court. I don't know whether he'll succeed, 453 00:25:32,956 --> 00:25:37,316 Speaker 1: but he's definitely trying, saying, I read these words to 454 00:25:37,476 --> 00:25:41,356 Speaker 1: mean that a protection that was undreamt of by the 455 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:44,436 Speaker 1: drafters of this law in nineteen sixty four. They were 456 00:25:44,476 --> 00:25:47,996 Speaker 1: not thinking of gay rights, and they certainly were not 457 00:25:48,076 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 1: thinking of trans people's rights is nevertheless entailed by these words. 458 00:25:53,596 --> 00:25:57,516 Speaker 1: And then you have other conservatives, like Justice Alito, saying, oh, 459 00:25:57,676 --> 00:26:01,636 Speaker 1: you must be kidding me. It can't be that the 460 00:26:01,796 --> 00:26:04,476 Speaker 1: meaning of the words what the law is, rather than 461 00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:07,876 Speaker 1: what the law should be, is entailed in this case 462 00:26:08,556 --> 00:26:11,876 Speaker 1: by something that was unimagined by the people who wrote it. 463 00:26:12,596 --> 00:26:15,316 Speaker 1: And you know, at the level of analysis of what 464 00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:18,996 Speaker 1: the people intended, he's certainly correct, right. And so for 465 00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:25,156 Speaker 1: Justice Alito, this decision by conservatives, including two conservatives, is activism. 466 00:26:25,276 --> 00:26:28,236 Speaker 1: It's the thing that the Federal Society's statement of purpose 467 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:31,356 Speaker 1: is against. And on the other side, it's not activism. 468 00:26:31,396 --> 00:26:33,956 Speaker 1: It's dictated by the text. It's an exact embodiment of 469 00:26:33,996 --> 00:26:36,156 Speaker 1: what the federal Society is supposed to stand for. And 470 00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:38,556 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to say is in a 471 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:42,036 Speaker 1: world where those two views exist, sure you could say, well, 472 00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:44,476 Speaker 1: we're a big ten, we have room. You know, Justice 473 00:26:44,516 --> 00:26:46,236 Speaker 1: Course such will be just as welcome at the annual 474 00:26:46,276 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: Convention as will Justice Alito. And I'm sure that's true. 475 00:26:50,596 --> 00:26:53,636 Speaker 1: But they can't both be right, and they can't both 476 00:26:53,676 --> 00:26:56,916 Speaker 1: be right that what they're doing is saying what the 477 00:26:56,996 --> 00:26:58,556 Speaker 1: law is and not what it should be. I mean, 478 00:26:58,596 --> 00:27:03,276 Speaker 1: that's a real disagreement. Yeah, there is probably no theory 479 00:27:03,476 --> 00:27:07,356 Speaker 1: of law or much of anything else that's worthwhile where 480 00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:11,076 Speaker 1: you would where you couldn't have serious debates about exactly 481 00:27:11,116 --> 00:27:14,796 Speaker 1: what's contained in it. I don't find that surprised. I mean, 482 00:27:15,076 --> 00:27:17,116 Speaker 1: I don't want to focus on a suggest on Bostock 483 00:27:17,196 --> 00:27:20,356 Speaker 1: where you know clearly amongst conservatives, course users opinions of 484 00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:24,916 Speaker 1: minority opinions. But it's there are all kinds of cases 485 00:27:24,956 --> 00:27:27,636 Speaker 1: which come up where you know there'll be differing views 486 00:27:27,716 --> 00:27:32,476 Speaker 1: and both will think they're right, and that's fine. The 487 00:27:32,556 --> 00:27:36,756 Speaker 1: problem is you want to have a framework within which 488 00:27:37,236 --> 00:27:41,316 Speaker 1: judges generally try to work and that's sort of where 489 00:27:41,356 --> 00:27:45,156 Speaker 1: I think that whole range of Federalists, and I'd like 490 00:27:45,196 --> 00:27:47,956 Speaker 1: to think a bunch of pep who aren't necessary federalists operate. 491 00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 1: The Federal Society, I think you'll agree, was in some 492 00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:55,396 Speaker 1: way born out of a sense of embattlement, and its 493 00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:57,556 Speaker 1: early years it was very self conscious of being a 494 00:27:57,636 --> 00:28:02,556 Speaker 1: minoritarian movement in a legal establishment that was heavily liberal. 495 00:28:02,956 --> 00:28:06,316 Speaker 1: And over your time in the organization you've seen that 496 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 1: change as you guys have become the publishment, and then 497 00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:13,876 Speaker 1: in a sense during the Trump years, you hit the jackpot. 498 00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:16,556 Speaker 1: Six of the current Supreme Court justices of nine are 499 00:28:16,596 --> 00:28:20,596 Speaker 1: either current or one time members of the organization, and 500 00:28:21,476 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 1: huge numbers of judges on the courts of appeal. And 501 00:28:25,356 --> 00:28:28,276 Speaker 1: your one time colleague Leonard Leo took a leave from 502 00:28:28,276 --> 00:28:31,036 Speaker 1: the Federal Society to go and advise the Trump administration 503 00:28:31,436 --> 00:28:36,356 Speaker 1: on judicial appointments. And some people said, imprecisely but maybe 504 00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 1: truly at some level that Trump had outsourced appealed judicial 505 00:28:40,076 --> 00:28:42,396 Speaker 1: selection to the Federal Society, And certainly we got an 506 00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:45,396 Speaker 1: enormous number of Federal Society affiliated judges on the bench. 507 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:48,556 Speaker 1: I mean, you couldn't imagine a greater success than what 508 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:52,676 Speaker 1: you've achieved, I don't think during the Trump administration. So 509 00:28:52,716 --> 00:28:56,276 Speaker 1: what's next? I mean, what remains for the organization after 510 00:28:56,436 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 1: having gone from being the margin to the all powerful 511 00:29:00,436 --> 00:29:02,756 Speaker 1: You know, actors, you know, what do you do for 512 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:06,236 Speaker 1: an encore? Well, I mean once saying do you understimate 513 00:29:06,356 --> 00:29:10,916 Speaker 1: maybe the people's imagination? More seriously, look, I mean you 514 00:29:10,996 --> 00:29:14,796 Speaker 1: already stated one huge area of the law schools, and 515 00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:17,756 Speaker 1: you know we have a very very long way to 516 00:29:17,916 --> 00:29:22,996 Speaker 1: go to create, from the standards say, of the national 517 00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:26,956 Speaker 1: political scene, a balance in the law schools. That's one 518 00:29:27,076 --> 00:29:28,636 Speaker 1: huge area. How do you do that? By the way, 519 00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:30,436 Speaker 1: what is the sort of Since you guys had a 520 00:29:30,436 --> 00:29:32,596 Speaker 1: thirty year strategy that worked for the judiciary, I might 521 00:29:32,596 --> 00:29:34,476 Speaker 1: guess is it will now work for the law schools. 522 00:29:34,476 --> 00:29:37,076 Speaker 1: But how do you do it? I admire your confidence. 523 00:29:37,396 --> 00:29:40,236 Speaker 1: I mean, what we try to do and what we 524 00:29:40,516 --> 00:29:44,036 Speaker 1: very much hope will work, is the same sort of 525 00:29:44,036 --> 00:29:46,636 Speaker 1: things we've done all along, which is trying to foster 526 00:29:47,076 --> 00:29:49,836 Speaker 1: this type of debate and discussion, and we do think 527 00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:52,276 Speaker 1: that will persuade a lot of people over time, to 528 00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:54,996 Speaker 1: the extent you can get ideas fairly hurt. I would 529 00:29:55,076 --> 00:29:58,116 Speaker 1: say that one other thing that causes some confusion is 530 00:29:58,156 --> 00:30:00,916 Speaker 1: all the emphasis on judges which are in nuditia, which 531 00:30:00,956 --> 00:30:03,356 Speaker 1: is extremely important. But there are all kinds of other 532 00:30:03,396 --> 00:30:05,916 Speaker 1: aspects of law and the impact of law and society, 533 00:30:06,316 --> 00:30:11,636 Speaker 1: where there's all kinds of discussions regulation, how and what 534 00:30:11,716 --> 00:30:14,436 Speaker 1: the role of law should be in sort of guiding 535 00:30:14,476 --> 00:30:17,596 Speaker 1: the country in certain ways, all the debates about the 536 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:21,436 Speaker 1: laws of moral force, the question of leaving people free 537 00:30:21,876 --> 00:30:24,156 Speaker 1: to do what they want to do even when you 538 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:27,676 Speaker 1: think it's a mistake. There's a whole battle about elites 539 00:30:27,876 --> 00:30:30,836 Speaker 1: versus sort of the average person in terms of there 540 00:30:30,836 --> 00:30:33,276 Speaker 1: are a lot of elites who think, you know, really 541 00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:35,836 Speaker 1: most people don't fully understand a lot of these things 542 00:30:35,836 --> 00:30:37,556 Speaker 1: and they need help. And then there are a lot 543 00:30:37,556 --> 00:30:41,116 Speaker 1: of people will say they should make their own decisions, 544 00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:44,276 Speaker 1: and yeah, give them information, but don't try to force them. 545 00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:47,196 Speaker 1: So they are all those battles and discussions. How do 546 00:30:47,236 --> 00:30:50,716 Speaker 1: you respond to the view that's sometimes taken by critics 547 00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:53,596 Speaker 1: of the federal society, especially from the left, that because 548 00:30:53,636 --> 00:30:58,276 Speaker 1: of your funders, you inevitably end up pushing a view 549 00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:01,716 Speaker 1: that is consonant with corporate interests in some way. I 550 00:31:01,756 --> 00:31:03,676 Speaker 1: mean I'm sure you have an answer to that. Well, 551 00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:06,716 Speaker 1: partly I don't think it's true. Well, that's part of 552 00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:08,716 Speaker 1: the answers to say more about it. I mean, if 553 00:31:08,716 --> 00:31:11,756 Speaker 1: you look get big business right now in the country, 554 00:31:11,876 --> 00:31:15,276 Speaker 1: it's not good all clear that pushing in the a 555 00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:19,396 Speaker 1: quote conservative or libertarian direction. But we have a pretty 556 00:31:19,436 --> 00:31:24,636 Speaker 1: basic rule we either seek nor take funds that. You know, 557 00:31:24,996 --> 00:31:26,956 Speaker 1: we make it pretty clear the type of things we do. 558 00:31:26,996 --> 00:31:29,116 Speaker 1: If people want to fund that, we're delighted. If they 559 00:31:29,116 --> 00:31:32,196 Speaker 1: don't want to fund that, then find somewhere else to give. 560 00:31:32,516 --> 00:31:35,676 Speaker 1: You know, we don't take restricted grants to do X, 561 00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:37,996 Speaker 1: Y and z. We might take a restricted grant to 562 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:40,756 Speaker 1: have a discussion of tech policy or something. Oh, we 563 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:43,396 Speaker 1: wouldn't take a restricted grant to have it more limited 564 00:31:43,396 --> 00:31:45,636 Speaker 1: than that. And you know, if we end up having 565 00:31:45,676 --> 00:31:48,956 Speaker 1: discussions and whoever the donor is decides they're unhappy, they 566 00:31:48,956 --> 00:31:51,756 Speaker 1: don't give to us again, and that's fine, that's their decision. 567 00:31:51,876 --> 00:31:54,956 Speaker 1: But you know, in part the people involved in this 568 00:31:55,076 --> 00:31:57,116 Speaker 1: went into it because of the ideas and because of 569 00:31:57,156 --> 00:31:59,956 Speaker 1: the commitment of the ideas. I guess I'm probably the 570 00:31:59,996 --> 00:32:02,676 Speaker 1: person who's been you know, most committed in terms of 571 00:32:03,076 --> 00:32:05,076 Speaker 1: being the CEO and being you know, having a Favy 572 00:32:05,076 --> 00:32:09,116 Speaker 1: fundraising role, it wouldn't make sense to me to try 573 00:32:09,156 --> 00:32:12,076 Speaker 1: to raise more money by doing things that I don't 574 00:32:12,116 --> 00:32:14,476 Speaker 1: think you're consistent with what we really want. So your 575 00:32:14,596 --> 00:32:16,236 Speaker 1: mission driven and then if people want to fund that, 576 00:32:16,356 --> 00:32:18,036 Speaker 1: they come along, and that's that's the answer that you 577 00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:20,916 Speaker 1: can give. Yeah, and very consciously so only the people 578 00:32:20,956 --> 00:32:23,516 Speaker 1: we have, anybody we have is helping us on fundraising 579 00:32:23,596 --> 00:32:27,156 Speaker 1: or development, we make that those instructions clear. Another way 580 00:32:27,156 --> 00:32:28,756 Speaker 1: of putting that would be that if the critics are 581 00:32:28,756 --> 00:32:30,796 Speaker 1: saying the reason that you take view X and why 582 00:32:31,236 --> 00:32:33,596 Speaker 1: that's conservative is, who's funny you're saying this the other 583 00:32:33,596 --> 00:32:36,276 Speaker 1: way around? We have those views, We actually are those things. 584 00:32:36,316 --> 00:32:38,956 Speaker 1: We actually are conservators and libertarians, and then people come 585 00:32:38,956 --> 00:32:41,156 Speaker 1: and fund us because they like what we think. I 586 00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:43,836 Speaker 1: would also say one other thing, anybody who looks at 587 00:32:43,876 --> 00:32:48,716 Speaker 1: corporate donations, they're philosophically spread across the map. Yes, there's 588 00:32:48,916 --> 00:32:51,556 Speaker 1: very little indication that you know, you can make more 589 00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:54,756 Speaker 1: of that argument with foundations. I mean, it's interesting and 590 00:32:54,836 --> 00:32:58,036 Speaker 1: sometimes there are questions about, well, your donors are most 591 00:32:58,076 --> 00:33:00,396 Speaker 1: of our donorshire listener any report, But we do have 592 00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:03,396 Speaker 1: a few who requested anonymity, and we have a number 593 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:06,476 Speaker 1: who've given through a couple of donor advised funds. And 594 00:33:06,556 --> 00:33:08,196 Speaker 1: I'd say a couple of things about that, because I 595 00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:12,356 Speaker 1: know this question comes up, soidal's good opportunity. What is 596 00:33:12,396 --> 00:33:17,076 Speaker 1: that People request dunonymity for probably three basic reasons. There 597 00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:21,596 Speaker 1: are some who conrest unnamity for something closer to the 598 00:33:21,596 --> 00:33:23,596 Speaker 1: little idea of you know, well, they're just trying to 599 00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:25,756 Speaker 1: hide exactly what they're giving because I think people won't 600 00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:28,036 Speaker 1: approve it or will hurt their business or hurt them 601 00:33:28,036 --> 00:33:31,796 Speaker 1: in some way or other. A second reason is because 602 00:33:32,236 --> 00:33:34,076 Speaker 1: they don't want a bunch of other people coming and 603 00:33:34,116 --> 00:33:36,916 Speaker 1: asking them for money. And if they're giving, particularly giving 604 00:33:36,956 --> 00:33:40,556 Speaker 1: sizeable amounts to a few organizations and it's listed, everybody 605 00:33:40,596 --> 00:33:42,076 Speaker 1: in the world's going to be knocking on their door, 606 00:33:42,116 --> 00:33:44,756 Speaker 1: and they don't want that. And the third reason is 607 00:33:44,756 --> 00:33:48,476 Speaker 1: there's a widespread view, particularly in religious areas, but not 608 00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:51,596 Speaker 1: exclusively that you know, it's not universal, but a wise 609 00:33:51,636 --> 00:33:54,556 Speaker 1: for review that donations are we do this for the 610 00:33:54,596 --> 00:33:56,556 Speaker 1: good that we hope we will be doing. We don't 611 00:33:56,596 --> 00:33:58,836 Speaker 1: do it for personal and grandizement. I'm not saying that 612 00:33:58,836 --> 00:34:01,756 Speaker 1: people who do who be listed are doing first line randizement. 613 00:34:01,996 --> 00:34:04,836 Speaker 1: But that's a view of some donors too. So what 614 00:34:04,996 --> 00:34:08,916 Speaker 1: percentage do you think roughly of your donations are anonymous 615 00:34:08,996 --> 00:34:12,036 Speaker 1: or in one form or another. You know, it's an 616 00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:16,436 Speaker 1: interesting question. It makes a big difference whether you count 617 00:34:16,436 --> 00:34:18,676 Speaker 1: the donor advised funds or not. We'll say, count them 618 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 1: and give me a ballpark. I count them. I don't know, 619 00:34:21,596 --> 00:34:25,516 Speaker 1: might be a quarter or something like that. Maybe a 620 00:34:25,556 --> 00:34:28,716 Speaker 1: little bit more, not much more. And the other thing 621 00:34:28,876 --> 00:34:31,476 Speaker 1: is if somebody says, well, you know you're you're hiding 622 00:34:31,516 --> 00:34:34,116 Speaker 1: the ball because you some of donors to donor trust, 623 00:34:34,236 --> 00:34:36,156 Speaker 1: I don't know who they are. I wish I did, 624 00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:39,116 Speaker 1: but I don't. Right, So you know they can't really 625 00:34:39,156 --> 00:34:42,036 Speaker 1: real anonymity, right, yeah, right, I can't have very much influence. 626 00:34:42,076 --> 00:34:44,516 Speaker 1: I mean when I don't know who they are. Last 627 00:34:44,596 --> 00:34:49,636 Speaker 1: question for you. For twenty years, so not all, but 628 00:34:49,676 --> 00:34:51,676 Speaker 1: a good chunk of the life of the federal society. 629 00:34:52,276 --> 00:34:54,676 Speaker 1: Liberals have been saying, we have to have our own 630 00:34:54,676 --> 00:34:58,236 Speaker 1: federalst society, and yet the American Constitution Society and other 631 00:34:58,396 --> 00:35:04,076 Speaker 1: organizations that have tried haven't, by common consensus, really gotten 632 00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:07,956 Speaker 1: close to having the kind of impact or influence that 633 00:35:08,116 --> 00:35:11,516 Speaker 1: you have had. What are they missing? What's the secret 634 00:35:11,596 --> 00:35:16,316 Speaker 1: sauce that your imitators, your self conscious imitators have not 635 00:35:16,436 --> 00:35:19,196 Speaker 1: managed to pull off well. I think there are a 636 00:35:19,236 --> 00:35:22,036 Speaker 1: couple of factors. One is that we are kind of 637 00:35:22,076 --> 00:35:25,396 Speaker 1: the only game in town for the type of ideas 638 00:35:25,516 --> 00:35:28,996 Speaker 1: we're talking about in law. There are so many other 639 00:35:29,036 --> 00:35:32,236 Speaker 1: groups on the left. They're pursuing somewhat similar things, and 640 00:35:32,276 --> 00:35:35,796 Speaker 1: I don't think inherently one or the other strategy is better. 641 00:35:35,796 --> 00:35:39,156 Speaker 1: I have no problem at all with sort of diversification 642 00:35:39,196 --> 00:35:41,956 Speaker 1: in that kind of way. I think that's been one factor. 643 00:35:42,676 --> 00:35:44,876 Speaker 1: I think the second factor goes to the core of 644 00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:48,076 Speaker 1: what we do, which is, in spite of questions being 645 00:35:48,116 --> 00:35:50,756 Speaker 1: raised about it, we are an organization does not take positions. 646 00:35:50,956 --> 00:35:53,876 Speaker 1: We are an organization that's serious about debate and discussion. 647 00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:56,036 Speaker 1: I think we are able to attract a lot of 648 00:35:56,076 --> 00:36:00,116 Speaker 1: people who may not think they necessarily agree with a 649 00:36:00,116 --> 00:36:03,316 Speaker 1: lot of the things many of our members think. I think, boy, 650 00:36:03,356 --> 00:36:05,756 Speaker 1: it's an interesting place to be in to discuss ideas. 651 00:36:06,116 --> 00:36:09,436 Speaker 1: When ACS was Market Cuts, I was first started looked 652 00:36:09,716 --> 00:36:13,796 Speaker 1: with two different executive directors there who came to me 653 00:36:13,796 --> 00:36:17,396 Speaker 1: and saying, you know, Jaya, basically, any thoughts, and I 654 00:36:17,436 --> 00:36:21,796 Speaker 1: was happy to give. Well. I thought, I actually I 655 00:36:21,836 --> 00:36:23,316 Speaker 1: can prove this because I have a quote in the 656 00:36:23,316 --> 00:36:25,676 Speaker 1: New York Times and that effect back when the ACS 657 00:36:25,756 --> 00:36:28,916 Speaker 1: had started. But I thought and believed that if they 658 00:36:29,036 --> 00:36:32,596 Speaker 1: would be an organization on the left committed to debate 659 00:36:32,636 --> 00:36:34,916 Speaker 1: and discussion in the way we were, I thought it 660 00:36:34,916 --> 00:36:36,916 Speaker 1: would be a really good thing for both the left 661 00:36:36,956 --> 00:36:39,756 Speaker 1: in the country. And I think the more more we 662 00:36:39,876 --> 00:36:46,516 Speaker 1: can have civil, serious, energetic and sharp debates and discussions, 663 00:36:47,276 --> 00:36:49,796 Speaker 1: not of the old cross fire line where people yell 664 00:36:49,836 --> 00:36:52,316 Speaker 1: at each other, but of the lines where people really 665 00:36:52,316 --> 00:36:55,436 Speaker 1: are trying to exchange ideas, I think all of us benefit. 666 00:36:55,476 --> 00:36:59,596 Speaker 1: And you know, I certainly believe in the broad ideas 667 00:37:00,476 --> 00:37:04,276 Speaker 1: the federal side discussed, but I also believe that that 668 00:37:04,316 --> 00:37:06,956 Speaker 1: type of discussion I think may help something many of 669 00:37:06,956 --> 00:37:10,316 Speaker 1: those ideas, but I think the extent it more across society, 670 00:37:10,356 --> 00:37:12,516 Speaker 1: I think it will help all of us. Gene, I 671 00:37:12,556 --> 00:37:15,516 Speaker 1: want to thank you for your candor and for the conversation, 672 00:37:15,796 --> 00:37:18,276 Speaker 1: and thank you very much for joining us, and I 673 00:37:18,316 --> 00:37:20,596 Speaker 1: look forward to speaking again in the future sometime. Thanks 674 00:37:20,636 --> 00:37:29,756 Speaker 1: so much. Take care. I was grateful to Gene Meyer 675 00:37:29,836 --> 00:37:32,476 Speaker 1: for living up to the stated principles of the Federalist 676 00:37:32,476 --> 00:37:37,196 Speaker 1: Society and being willing to discuss openly challenges and questions 677 00:37:37,236 --> 00:37:41,156 Speaker 1: around the Federalist Society it's funding, the way it operates, 678 00:37:41,276 --> 00:37:44,156 Speaker 1: and the way it's going to operate in the future. 679 00:37:44,756 --> 00:37:47,796 Speaker 1: I hope you found the conversation as engaging as I did. 680 00:37:48,596 --> 00:37:52,236 Speaker 1: You can buy our new audiobook, Takeover How a Conservative 681 00:37:52,236 --> 00:37:56,076 Speaker 1: Student Club Captured the Supreme Court, on Pushkin's website, Pushkin 682 00:37:56,196 --> 00:38:00,276 Speaker 1: dot FM, or on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. 683 00:38:00,916 --> 00:38:03,876 Speaker 1: Until the next time I speak to you, Be careful, 684 00:38:04,276 --> 00:38:08,276 Speaker 1: be safe, and be well. Deep background is brought to 685 00:38:08,276 --> 00:38:12,276 Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Mo laboord our 686 00:38:12,316 --> 00:38:16,276 Speaker 1: engineer is Martin Gonzalez, and our shorerunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. 687 00:38:16,716 --> 00:38:20,596 Speaker 1: Editorial support from noahm Osband. Theme music by Luis Guerra 688 00:38:21,116 --> 00:38:25,076 Speaker 1: at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia, Jean Coott, 689 00:38:25,316 --> 00:38:30,236 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Carl mcgiori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. 690 00:38:30,596 --> 00:38:32,956 Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. 691 00:38:33,316 --> 00:38:35,716 Speaker 1: I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you 692 00:38:35,716 --> 00:38:39,436 Speaker 1: can find at bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover 693 00:38:39,516 --> 00:38:42,756 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to bloomberg dot com 694 00:38:42,796 --> 00:38:45,716 Speaker 1: slash podcasts, and if you liked what you heard today, 695 00:38:46,076 --> 00:38:48,876 Speaker 1: please write a review or tell a friend. This is 696 00:38:48,996 --> 00:38:49,756 Speaker 1: deep background