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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And this episode is part two, uh

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Speaker 1: weird Parental Psychology Week because in the last episode we

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Speaker 1: talked all about the Mama's Boy trope, and today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about daddy's girls and daddy issues, right

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Speaker 1: because you know, we we started off our Mama's Boy,

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Speaker 1: which I know you listen to. We started off our

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Speaker 1: Mom's Boy episode talking about kind of the darker side

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Speaker 1: of not only being a mom's boy, but what people

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Speaker 1: assumed about you and what that meant. Hitler, Yeah, We're talked.

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Speaker 1: We talked a lot about Hitler, a lot about Hitler. Um.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to talk about Hitler this time that

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Speaker 1: I know of, Kristen Um, but we are going to

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Speaker 1: talk about daddy issues because us that is never meant

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Speaker 1: as a positive thing. No, it's not. And it hadn't

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Speaker 1: occurred to me until I don't know what I was reading,

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Speaker 1: but I was on the internet and someone made some

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Speaker 1: quip about, you know, insulting a woman by calling by

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Speaker 1: saying that she must have daddy issues and a little

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Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you. Bell went on off in

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Speaker 1: my brain, thinking why is that a thing? Why is that?

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Speaker 1: I mean not not why our daddy issues a thing,

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Speaker 1: although we will talk about that, but why is that

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Speaker 1: this pop cultural knee jerk insult directed at women and

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Speaker 1: a lot directed at feminists. Now, for our international listeners

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Speaker 1: who might not be so familiar with this term, daddy issues,

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Speaker 1: for a little bit of a very casual definition of

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Speaker 1: what it is. According to the Urban Dictionary, it's whenever

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Speaker 1: a female has a screwed up, for the podcast relationship

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Speaker 1: with her father or absence of a father figure during

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Speaker 1: her childhood, so it tends to spill into any adult

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Speaker 1: relationship they embark on, usually to the chagrin of any

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Speaker 1: poor male in her life. So stereotypically, women with daddy

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Speaker 1: issues are needy, obsessive, dramatic, insecure and looking for love

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Speaker 1: and all the wrong places. Well that'll be in my

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Speaker 1: head for the rest of the day. Um. But it's

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Speaker 1: also tacked onto women and girls who are specifically attracted

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Speaker 1: to older men, and just people assume that something's got

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Speaker 1: to be wrong with you if you're attracted to somebody

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Speaker 1: who's even a little bit older. Yeah, you must be

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Speaker 1: secretly wanting to have sex with your father. And then

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Speaker 1: there's a whole idea that vocal feminists must certainly have

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Speaker 1: toxic relationships or Harbard hatred toward their dad's because why

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Speaker 1: else would they have and expressed distaste with a patriarchal

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Speaker 1: status quo feminists be heaven daddy issues that that is

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Speaker 1: one of the most like just the hallmark of a

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Speaker 1: trollish criticism that you will get on the internet if

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Speaker 1: you talk about gender equality long enough. Not that it's

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Speaker 1: ever happened to me. And for the record, I love

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Speaker 1: my dad. I have a perfectly healthy relationship with him.

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Speaker 1: But why am I even having to defend that? I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Kristen, I don't know, because we're about to

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Speaker 1: talk about why that's so good that you have a

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Speaker 1: relationship with your dad. Yeah. So there is a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of research on the dynamics and effects and impacts

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Speaker 1: of the father daughter relationship. I would say even more

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Speaker 1: so comparing it to what we read about for our

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Speaker 1: Mama's Boy episode. It seems like this father daughter relationship

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Speaker 1: has been put even more so under the academic microscope

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Speaker 1: than the mother's son relationship. Yeah, Whereas it seems like

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Speaker 1: a lot of the mama's boy research, you know, if

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Speaker 1: there was any academic psychological research, was all really early,

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Speaker 1: and it was all super negative and awful, and it

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Speaker 1: was all sort of justifying why being a mama's boy

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Speaker 1: is so terrible. It was very homophobic, very homophobic. Whereas

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Speaker 1: the studies into being a daddy's girl or having quote

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Speaker 1: daddy issues or whatever, it's much more um encouraging of

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Speaker 1: that relationship, Yeah, encouraging if you have an active paternal presence,

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Speaker 1: it's very pro dad being involved with her daughter. Whereas

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Speaker 1: on the flip side, there's a lot of panic where

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Speaker 1: if you have a negative relationship or non existent relationship

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Speaker 1: with a father figure, then you will have a lot

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Speaker 1: of premarital sex, which we will get into more. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of sex panic surrounding this whole daddy issues

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Speaker 1: and daddy's girl things. So there was a two thousand

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Speaker 1: fourteen study published in the Men's Studies Press called Father's

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Speaker 1: in the Dorm Room The Unique Influence of Fathers and

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Speaker 1: Mothers on Young Adult Functioning, And it was really fascinating

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Speaker 1: because it wasn't so much focused on the father daughter relationship,

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Speaker 1: but rather just the paternal influence on kids, sons and

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Speaker 1: daughters alike, and how they developed psychologically, their self esteem,

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Speaker 1: rates of depression, and previous studies cited in this two

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Speaker 1: thousand fourteen study note how dad's in particular have a

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Speaker 1: very strong influence, even stronger some would say, than moms

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Speaker 1: on young kids. Yeah, so they cited a twelve study,

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Speaker 1: for instance, that found that father's acceptance might correlate stronger

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Speaker 1: to children's psychological adjustment versus mother's acceptance. And similarly, a

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Speaker 1: two thousand eight study found that a father's indifference was

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Speaker 1: more related to children's scores on measures of depression. And

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Speaker 1: a two thousand to study looked at father's sensitivity during

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Speaker 1: toddler play and tied it to predicted attachment representations and

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Speaker 1: adolescents versus the mothers and influence. So all of these

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Speaker 1: studies are pointing to dad having a super strong influence

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Speaker 1: on all all number of things. Yeah, and this isn't

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Speaker 1: just within American culture. A lot of these study findings

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Speaker 1: do apply across culturally as well. And in this study,

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Speaker 1: sample the kids that they looked at for the father's

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Speaker 1: in the dorm room, which is such a creepy image study,

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Speaker 1: they found that father's acceptance was substantially more variable than

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Speaker 1: mother's acceptance levels. And this is a theme that you

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Speaker 1: see come up a lot when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: father daughter relationship. This idea that we sometimes as children

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Speaker 1: take our mother's love for granted, whereas a father's love

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Speaker 1: and acceptance of us. I think that acceptance party is

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Speaker 1: really important, is something that we feel like we have

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Speaker 1: to earn. Yeah. And so I had like like a real,

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Speaker 1: like real talk moment with myself when I was reading

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Speaker 1: these studies in the yeah, real talking, real talking to

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Speaker 1: my of like, hey, you you're all right, You're right,

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Speaker 1: But no, I I can feel this, uh from my

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Speaker 1: own experience because my mother I'm an only raised an

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Speaker 1: only child, uh, and my mother was like we were

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Speaker 1: super close. I was more of a mama's girl than

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Speaker 1: a daddy's girl. Even though my dad and I were

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Speaker 1: always close and had a good relationship, but it always

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Speaker 1: felt like, oh, well, I'm always perfect in my mother's eyes,

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Speaker 1: Like she's always going to think I'm perfect, and then

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Speaker 1: I'm the prettiest and the best and the smartest, um,

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Speaker 1: whereas my dad is a little more on the stoic side.

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Speaker 1: And so It's like I knew he was proud of me,

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Speaker 1: but I really felt like I had to work harder

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Speaker 1: to earn that pride and that acceptance and that attention.

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Speaker 1: I can completely empathize with it. And and that seems

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Speaker 1: too like a common theme that you see in in

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Speaker 1: this studying fact from two thousand and fourteen about how

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Speaker 1: we as kids are really attuned to and sensitive to

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Speaker 1: um our father's levels of acceptance and also rejection. And

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Speaker 1: one key quote that jumped out to me in the

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Speaker 1: study discussion was that parental acceptance and rejection may be

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Speaker 1: perceived as a reflection of the self social worth. Thus,

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Speaker 1: low acceptance and high rejection by fathers compared to mothers

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Speaker 1: may carry more negative psychological consequences. Dad's beware interesting well.

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Speaker 1: Psychologist Peggy Drexler, who's the author of Our Fathers, Ourselves UM,

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Speaker 1: talks about the fact that many daughters this is a quote,

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Speaker 1: many daughters idolized their fathers because they don't know them

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Speaker 1: well enough to see their flaws and therefore desire his approval.

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Speaker 1: She talks a lot about how stereotypically, uh culturally, the

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Speaker 1: father's working outside the home more, maybe he travels more

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Speaker 1: than mom, does maybe mom's home more being the primary caregiver,

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Speaker 1: and it's that whole like allure of this powerful man

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Speaker 1: outside the house. And if he's oh if, well, if

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Speaker 1: he's so powerful and needed out there, then obviously he's

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Speaker 1: like a big shot. And there's that whole idea that

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Speaker 1: dad is this sort of other figure. He's a little

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Speaker 1: bit more distant from us than Mom, who is, you know,

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Speaker 1: very close in terms of being a caregiver. So we've

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Speaker 1: got to work harder and try to impress him more.

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Speaker 1: Although I do have a feeling that narrative is rapidly changing,

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Speaker 1: and you do have more stay at home dads for instance,

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Speaker 1: or moms who are the breadwinners, and and dad's in

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Speaker 1: general just being more invested in childcare, and I think

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Speaker 1: that would be a good way, for a positive way

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Speaker 1: for it to be evolving. Um, but if we look

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Speaker 1: a little more closely to at that father daughter relationship,

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Speaker 1: not just looking at kids in general, looking now at

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Speaker 1: dad's and daughters, what kind of dynamics tend to emerge.

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Speaker 1: So there's also this common refrain that fathers are the

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Speaker 1: first men whose love girls seek out, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of us too. You have to keep been mind is

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Speaker 1: coming from a very heteronormative framework. Um, there's this important

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Speaker 1: importance of the father figure in terms of you know,

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Speaker 1: being that that first guy that whose love and affection

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Speaker 1: girls want to win over is based on the assumption

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Speaker 1: that you know, in in the future she will be

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Speaker 1: seeking the love and affection of other men. And so

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Speaker 1: Dad's thus established our earliest models of what we expect

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Speaker 1: relationships with men to be like. And then our relationship

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Speaker 1: attachment styles, which we've talked a lot before on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: anxious attachment, secure attachment, et cetera. Then flow from there,

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Speaker 1: thanks or no thanks dead, Yeah, I mean I can

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Speaker 1: I can totally see how this this goes beyond just

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Speaker 1: like being a stereotype and something that people assume. I

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Speaker 1: can totally see how Dad would be a model and

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Speaker 1: psychologist Jennifer Cronberg basically says, yeah, yeah, basically, that's that's

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Speaker 1: how that works. She says, in my years of psychology practice,

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Speaker 1: I've met very few women who didn't unconsciously or consciously

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Speaker 1: pick a romantic partner based on her dad. Talking about

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Speaker 1: it's true for whether she a woman dates a man

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Speaker 1: because he's like her father or because he's nothing like

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Speaker 1: her dad somehow it's all based one way or another

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Speaker 1: on her relationship with her father. Yeah, and we actually

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Speaker 1: did a podcast a while back now called do We

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Speaker 1: Marry Our Parents? Which if you want, you want to

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Speaker 1: dig more into this kind of psychology, you can head

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Speaker 1: over to Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com and

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Speaker 1: look in our podcast archive, which you can get to

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Speaker 1: by clicking on the podcast tab and throlling all the

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Speaker 1: way down and you'll see a button browse all of

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Speaker 1: our podcasts, and the episode title is do We Marry

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Speaker 1: Our Parents? But back to dad's and daughters. What daughters

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Speaker 1: say they want more from their dad's and perhaps to

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Speaker 1: divert these so called daddy issues, that negative baggage that

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Speaker 1: we you know, hear about so often in a very

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Speaker 1: flip kind of way. Um. According to a two thousand

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Speaker 1: even in contemporary sexuality, what daughters in the in this case,

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Speaker 1: college aged daughters wanted more from their dads was quote

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Speaker 1: understanding men, suggesting ways to deal with pressure to have sex,

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Speaker 1: sharing their own experiences about adolescence, dating insects when they,

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Speaker 1: as in dads, were adolescents, communicating values, providing more information

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Speaker 1: on sexual risk topics, and being more open and comfortable

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Speaker 1: when talking to their daughters, because this entire study was

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Speaker 1: looking at how dad's talked to their daughters about sex,

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Speaker 1: and the answer is not very much, because that's uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: As a lot of the male psychologists they talked to say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it can be uncomfortable if you are a dad to

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Speaker 1: talk to your daughter about sex, because then it gets

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Speaker 1: into questions of well, what did you do, dad, and

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Speaker 1: then having to stay out loud, well, I was young

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Speaker 1: and horny once, and then the awkward silence that ensues. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the whole idea about dad being all like, hey, kiddo

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Speaker 1: and poling around with you before puberty, and then puberty

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Speaker 1: hits and suddenly dad feels like he's in an awkward

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Speaker 1: like just talk to your mother face. Yeah, because I'm

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Speaker 1: sure for a lot of dad's there's you know, a

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Speaker 1: line that they want to respect and don't want to cross.

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Speaker 1: But also to you hear from these these older daughters

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Speaker 1: saying that they, you know, wish that there had been

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Speaker 1: more recognition of the fact that, yeah, they were growing

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Speaker 1: up and that's not a scary thing, and it would

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Speaker 1: have been nice from that primary model of what men

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Speaker 1: are like in relationships to have one that's open and

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Speaker 1: honest and able to talk about things like sex. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but to be fair, neither of my parents talked to

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Speaker 1: me about sex, so that one that one wasn't all

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Speaker 1: on dad. Yeah, this is true, and I mean my

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Speaker 1: mom definitely talked to me more about it, and the

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Speaker 1: messages that I got from my dad about sex for

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Speaker 1: more in the sense of no, you don't want to

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Speaker 1: know what happens in a boy's mind, which, for the record, people,

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Speaker 1: not a good message to give to your daughter. Well, Kristen,

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Speaker 1: we have a lot more to talk about, but first

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Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break and now back

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Speaker 1: to the show. Speaking of messages that dads are giving

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Speaker 1: their daughters, what happens when daughters don't have those ideal, strong,

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Speaker 1: warm relationships with dad. Study looked at stress responses that

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Speaker 1: women experience and found that those who had reported relationships

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Speaker 1: with their dad characterized by rejection, chaos, and coercion ended

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Speaker 1: up having basically higher stress hormone levels, so cortisol levels,

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Speaker 1: and but before a task that they anticipated to be

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Speaker 1: stressful and had higher cortisol in response to a problem

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Speaker 1: discussion with a friend. They were also more likely to

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Speaker 1: self disclose about psychosocial stressors. Yeah, that disclosure thing is

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Speaker 1: something that comes up a lot in terms of core.

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Speaker 1: It's behavioral corelates. For women who have dysfunctional relationships with

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Speaker 1: their dads, there is a lot more disclosure going on.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure why, but that was just something

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Speaker 1: that I noticed from the research. Um. But in that

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Speaker 1: particular instance, the opposite was true. For the women who

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Speaker 1: you know, had self reported father daughter relationships characterized by warmth, autonomy,

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Speaker 1: support and structure, they actually on a physiological level, managed

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Speaker 1: stressful situations better. And Caroline, you know, what is incredible

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Speaker 1: to me is the fact that this relationship has been

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Speaker 1: studied down to a physiological level. Did you see any

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Speaker 1: physiological biological studies about the influence of mother's relationships on

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Speaker 1: their sons and how they managed stressed Definitely not. There

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Speaker 1: were just a handful that talked about aggression versus emotional literacy.

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Speaker 1: It's fascinating when you compare what we what we focus on, uh,

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Speaker 1: in terms of you know, studies and all that. When

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Speaker 1: it comes to a risky behavior, risky business comes up

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Speaker 1: a lot in father daughters studies. There was a two

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Speaker 1: thousand fourteen study which found that female participants who reported

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Speaker 1: low psychological presence from their dads were likelier to engage

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Speaker 1: in risky behavior like drug use and hookups. And there's

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Speaker 1: also a two thousand six study in the Journal of

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Speaker 1: Black Psychology which found that girls with involved dads were

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Speaker 1: less likely to use illegal drugs. And that's a pattern

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Speaker 1: that comes up over and over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: And all of these studies is that you know, absent

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Speaker 1: or dysfunctional relationships with dads are usually correlated to risk

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Speaker 1: here behavior, which usually just is a catch all for

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Speaker 1: drug use, alcohol use, tobacco use, and pre marital sex

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Speaker 1: and teen pregnancy. Interesting not sliding down a long hallway

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Speaker 1: within just a button up and socks listening to Bob Seger.

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Speaker 1: Yes so, And of course this all ties into relationship

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Speaker 1: habits as all. This is what we talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about when you think about women with quote unquote daddy issues.

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Speaker 1: But other studies have shown associations between negative relationships with

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Speaker 1: dad's and relationship self esteem, overall self disclosure, and overall

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Speaker 1: self silencing in romantic relationships. And then when it comes

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Speaker 1: to sex, this is kind of echoing when I just

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Speaker 1: said a minute ago, there's a two thousand three study

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Speaker 1: in child development which found that girls with absent fathers

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Speaker 1: were likelier to become pregnant, and I'm assuming that means

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Speaker 1: team pregnancy. And other studies have also correlated again, absent

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Speaker 1: or dysfunctional dads with not just uh, sexual promiscuity, but

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Speaker 1: lower sexual confidence in daughters, which psychologists would say would

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Speaker 1: then lead to that quote unquote risky behavior. So there

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Speaker 1: is a lot of concern echoed over and over again

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Speaker 1: about will a bad dad lead to essentially a promiscuous daughter. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of focus just on that sex behavior

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Speaker 1: of the daughter, right, and Uh. Catherine Hutchinson and Julie

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Speaker 1: Cedar bomb in a study looked at women who talked

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Speaker 1: about their father's kind of encapsulating them and in this

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Speaker 1: whole daddy's girl role, and found that these according to

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Speaker 1: these women, in their perspective, their father's inability to see

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Speaker 1: them as anything but little girls was actually a barrier

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Speaker 1: to father daughter sexual communication. The father refusing to see

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Speaker 1: his daughter as either a grown up woman or as

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Speaker 1: a developing adolescent, refusing to accept it that she's anything

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Speaker 1: other than daddy's princess. Well, and in that situation too,

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Speaker 1: I think those those relationships weren't necessarily seen as negative ones.

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Speaker 1: These were dads who were involved in their daughters lives

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Speaker 1: and were very present and loving towards their daughters. But

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Speaker 1: like you said, just crystallize them in this you know,

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Speaker 1: prepubescent phase and kind of can't move beyond that. I

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Speaker 1: can't think about sex, doesn't want to talk about sex, noope,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Yeah, and so let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: though about daddy issues and daddy's little girls in pop culture,

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Speaker 1: because that was a large focus of the Mama's Boy

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Speaker 1: episode because it became so deeply ingrained in mid century

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Speaker 1: American culture. So what about when it comes to Daddy's girls?

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Speaker 1: And we'll talk more about that when we come right

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Speaker 1: back from a quick break. So it's about time we

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Speaker 1: got around to talking about Freud because we mentioned him

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Speaker 1: so much in our Mama's Boy episode, and we also

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Speaker 1: mentioned the whole post World War two period when a

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Speaker 1: lot of societal fears and anxieties cropped up, not only

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Speaker 1: around mothers in their children, but also homosexuality and what

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Speaker 1: that meant as a changing society. Yeah, and there was

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Speaker 1: just this really intense focus on psychoanalysis and particularly psychoanalysis

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Speaker 1: through that edible framework kind of the placing perhaps too

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Speaker 1: much importance and fear on the child's relationship, particularly with

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Speaker 1: the opposite sex parents and two Lane history professor Rachel

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Speaker 1: Devlin actually wrote an entire book about this in two

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Speaker 1: thousand five called Relative Intimacy, Father's Adolescent Daughters and Postwar

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Speaker 1: American Culture, and she argues in it that the whole

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Speaker 1: Daddy Issues Daddy's Girls thing was a combination of two forces,

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Speaker 1: one being the popularity of Freudian psychoanalysis, and then also

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Speaker 1: the rise of female delinquency because you have in post

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Speaker 1: World War two America for the very first time, teenage

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Speaker 1: culture really being this big thing. I mean, even if

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Speaker 1: you look back at Life magazine at the time, they

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Speaker 1: have feature stories on like what being a teenager is

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Speaker 1: because it's this sort of new phase in life and

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Speaker 1: it has this whole culture and consumer culture around it.

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Speaker 1: After the war, and with that, you also see the

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Speaker 1: rise of female delinquency, and you can see it on

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Speaker 1: screen through classic films such as Rebel Without a Cause.

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Speaker 1: And there was a fear about these these female delinquents,

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Speaker 1: these girl gangs, what's going on? Well, blame their dads.

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Speaker 1: I know, well, it's so funny to see those anxieties

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Speaker 1: blown up like that. It's just like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you mean women are women, and young girls are developing

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Speaker 1: their own sort of like personalities outside of the home,

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Speaker 1: and they're they're becoming teenagers and that is so scary.

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Speaker 1: She's wearing lipstick. Oh no, what does that mean? Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine what they would have done if they had

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Speaker 1: seen spring Breakers clutched their pearls of For sure, Broyd

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Speaker 1: would have been like, oh, I got a lot to say.

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Speaker 1: But Devline talks about how during this time, girls perceived

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Speaker 1: misbehavior was explained as a paternal failing. She says that

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Speaker 1: girls were seen as being not sufficiently edible connected to

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Speaker 1: their fathers, and this whole edible framework that Kristen mentioned

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Speaker 1: was a way to try to control and reintegrate girls

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Speaker 1: into the family. But what surprised me, considering the way

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Speaker 1: we talked about Freud on this podcast, what surprised me

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Speaker 1: is that Freud thought this whole perception was warped. He

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Speaker 1: himself thought that these urges needed to be overcome, not maintained.

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Speaker 1: Freud thought that sure, girls and young women have to

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Speaker 1: go through this pass through this phase of like having

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Speaker 1: this relationship with their dad, but they the key is

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Speaker 1: that they have to then pass through it right well.

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Speaker 1: And one example that she calls out in terms of

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Speaker 1: maintaining rather than overcoming, was through the use of lipstick.

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Speaker 1: This is an act cruel thing. She said that it

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Speaker 1: was thought at the time that girls who were allowed

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Speaker 1: to wear bright lipstick, which was in vogue with their

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Speaker 1: father's blessing, would be sexually well developed. Whereas dads who

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Speaker 1: forbade their daughters to wear lipstick, we're arresting their daughters

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Speaker 1: sexual development. So yeah, I mean, talk about some loaded lipstick,

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Speaker 1: interesting band, new band name? Well, I mean because two

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Speaker 1: in this is in the what fourias and fifties, and

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Speaker 1: only a few decades prior, wearing wearing rouge on your

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Speaker 1: lips would have been something only a stage actresses would do.

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Speaker 1: And you know what stage actresses do? They act and

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Speaker 1: they and they for in a kate. But she then

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Speaker 1: ties that to this idea of a new fatherhood that

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Speaker 1: began emerging in the nineteen twenties. This is when we

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Speaker 1: slowly see the development of dad's roles starting to change,

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Speaker 1: gradually becoming more involved and becoming more of an expected

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Speaker 1: part of the paternal role, not just to go out

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Speaker 1: and bring home the bacon and be the provider, but

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Speaker 1: also provide emotional security as well. And when the depression hit,

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Speaker 1: he had an interesting influence on the father daughter relationship.

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Speaker 1: And this is coming from the book American Sweethearts Teenage

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Speaker 1: Girls in twenties Century Popular Culture and Alana Nashy, author

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Speaker 1: says that the trophy daughter idea thrived in the depression

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Speaker 1: when the proliferation of sub deb as in debutante images

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Speaker 1: in popular culture address the perceived crisis of masculinity, suggesting

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Speaker 1: that Daddy was still a real man and that his

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Speaker 1: masculinity was not lost entirely in the crisis as long

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Speaker 1: as he could protect his angelic little girl. So Daddy's

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Speaker 1: little girl is going to be showered with gifts. He

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Speaker 1: is going to, you know, buy all these things for

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Speaker 1: her to protect her and also in the process assert

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Speaker 1: his own masculinity which is being threatened by this economic

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Speaker 1: crisis of the Great Depression. That is interesting the layers

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Speaker 1: on that one. It's probably not the same thing as

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Speaker 1: when my father a couple of years ago asked if

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Speaker 1: if I wanted him to take me find China shopping.

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Speaker 1: I was like, do you really do you think I'm

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Speaker 1: never gonna get married. You're just gonna step up to

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Speaker 1: the plate and buy me some some plates. Maybe he

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Speaker 1: wanted to assert his masculinity or something. Maybe he has

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Speaker 1: a secret love for ceramics, Caroline, he could I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, we don't know everything about

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Speaker 1: our fathers. This is true. But that's interesting because I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're talking in a in a time frame of the depression,

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Speaker 1: or a lot of Nash is talking about a time

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Speaker 1: frame of the depression. But I mean, now we have

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Speaker 1: something similar if you look at things like moving on

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Speaker 1: from debutant's up to the popularity these days of like

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Speaker 1: purity balls and stuff. Oh yeah, the purity balls being uh,

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Speaker 1: events that are more typically associated with evangelical Christianity and

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Speaker 1: the whole virginity pledge thing. There are these events called

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Speaker 1: purity balls where fathers will escort their daughters to a

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Speaker 1: prom like event where or and it's sort of a

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Speaker 1: prom and also a coming out kind of event where

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Speaker 1: dads will pledge publicly to protect their daughters sexual purity,

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Speaker 1: and then the daughters sort of pledge themselves to their

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Speaker 1: dads as well. There's definitely a lot of interaction between

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Speaker 1: what we've been talking about and that phenomenon. But in

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Speaker 1: all of this, I mean, you could argue that all

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Speaker 1: of that sounds pretty weird, but overall, I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more social acceptance for daddy's little girl, daddy's princess,

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Speaker 1: things like that, even like grown women saying it versus

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Speaker 1: mama's boy, which is definitely pathologized. Yeah, because what have

429
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: we seen in all of this research. There's this, you know,

430
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: hammering home over and over again, this idea that if

431
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: you have a solid relationship with your dad as a female,

432
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: then you are well adjusted, you know, and there it

433
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: kind of like can't and and the only way that

434
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: it starts to get so close that people start turning

435
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: their noses up at it is when it becomes almost

436
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: two financially involved, where she becomes the spoiled little princess

437
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: rather than just daddy's little girl, but a woman who

438
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: is codependent on her father in the same way that

439
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: a guy might be codependent on his mother that we

440
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: call him a mom's boy. Those are perceived very differently.

441
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: It seems like even even today, and speaking of Peggy Drexler,

442
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: the author of Our Fathers, Ourselves, and Psychologists. The one

443
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: big type of father that she calls out in her

444
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: book that she sort of has no patience for is

445
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: the dad who really fosters the whole daddy's little girl image.

446
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: Not in the sense of like wanting to you have

447
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: a close relationship with her, his daughter, but dads who

448
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: sort of want to almost over put put their daughters

449
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: in a bell jar in a way to protect them

450
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: from everything, because she says that it might render them

451
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: incapable of self actualizing as adult women, because these dads

452
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: want to hold onto them because maybe it's a need

453
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: to assert masculinity. Maybe it's a fear, you know, the

454
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: of knowing themselves as younger horney men and not wanting

455
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: to think about that in the context of their sexually

456
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: maturing daughters. Um, but yeah, she's she's not look kindly

457
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: upon that. That's funny, Like, I don't, I don't. I

458
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: never got the impression that my dad wanted to keep

459
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: me his little girl forever. I got the impression more

460
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: that he was off to the side, like, uh, she's

461
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: growing up and I'm just I'll just be over here.

462
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: I don't I can't watch. Not that he was like

463
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: super comfortable with me, like dating or anything. It was

464
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: more that he's like, I don't want to know. I

465
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: don't want to know, don't tell me. But Rachel Devlin,

466
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: who we mentioned earlier, also looks at these contemporary father

467
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: daughter relationships from an interesting perspective. She says that they're

468
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: more commercially oriented, as evidenced by things like MTV show

469
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: My Super Sweet Sixteen. Yeah, in case you haven't seen

470
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: this reality show, and I don't know that it's still

471
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: on the air, it showcases a lavish, over the top

472
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: sweet sixteen party for a kid. A lot of times,

473
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: it's a girl who is usually pretty spoiled, gets everything

474
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: that she wants and usually ends with someone getting a

475
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: new car. And it's always interesting in the show too,

476
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: or thinking back on the show, it's not like I'm

477
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: sitting at I'm still watching it these days, but I

478
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: watched it off in my youth to know that every

479
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: now and then, the mom always played a larger role

480
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: in the show because the dad was off doing whatever,

481
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: making these bookoo bucks to pay for this party. And

482
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: when he would show up, though, he would always be

483
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: the one handing over the keys of the car and

484
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: like looking proud as a peacock to be showing off

485
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: how well he was providing for his lovely daughter coming

486
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: of age. Look at look at what he's doing. It's

487
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: that trophy daughter idea, which is, uh, which is really

488
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: fascinating to think about. Right, But I mean, I think

489
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: what you just said illustrates what Devlin is talking about.

490
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: As far as the monetary exchange being used as a

491
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: way for fathers to distance themselves from their daughters sexual development, Well, yeah,

492
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: because it probably feels more appropriate to make a purchase

493
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: to demonstrate your love because, as dad's can probably attest,

494
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: when you know, girls start to their daughters start to mature,

495
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they get boobs. When you hug them,

496
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: it feels different than when you hug them as little girls,

497
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: and showing them physical affection could get uncomfortable maybe for

498
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: them and for their daughters. And so yeah, I could

499
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: totally see the consumer side of it being a distancing

500
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: factor or a strategy, I should say. But one thing

501
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: that we've touched on but haven't really gotten into is

502
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: the fact and we we talked about this a little

503
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: bit with Mama's Boys, and that they're just different dynamics

504
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: going on if it's the same sex couple raising kids

505
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: than it is with our stereotypical mother father household that

506
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: has been studied to death. Yeah. I mean the thing

507
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: for both of these episodes, Mama's Boys and Daddy's Girls

508
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: is can goodness, this raises just burnt holes in my brain. Uh,

509
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: it's interesting to talk about both of them at this

510
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: time when I feel like the role of mother and

511
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: father is very much in flux and almost it's starting

512
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: to meld together into this broader role of just being

513
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: a good parent and it not being so gender specific. Um,

514
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 1: because you know, like you said, there now plenty of

515
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: two parent households with kids who are doing perfectly well

516
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: where there is neither a father or neither a mother,

517
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: depending on which kind of same sex couple it is.

518
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: And there was actually an article in The Advocate called

519
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: the Lesbian Dad and talking about how there are some

520
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 1: gender nonconforming lesbians who are more comfortable with their kids

521
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: calling them dad or a derivative thereof, Like they profiled

522
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: one woman who preferred to be called Baba rather than

523
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: being called mom or mommy, because particularly with the mommy,

524
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: there's just there's just no identification with that label whatsoever.

525
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: And I can understand that. I mean, I thinking myself

526
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: being called mommy. Nope, well, I mean you know, this

527
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: also goes back to an episode that Christen and I

528
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: did a while ago on the division of household labor.

529
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: Basically that even the most like progressive, forward thinking man

530
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: woman feminist couple, even those couples can tend to fall

531
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: back to gender norms when it comes to the division

532
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: of household labor, whereas if you have same sex couple,

533
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: the traditional household duties are more equally distributed. Yeah. And

534
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: there was a study among Swedish children and lesbian households

535
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: that came out in and it concluded based on interviews

536
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: with these kids that they quote described daddy's as the

537
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: same as mummies. And that's mummies with you because it's

538
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: from Sweden and I really enjoy that. Um So, in

539
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: other words, in these kids minds who were being raised

540
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: in these lesbian households with very egalitarian setups, the both

541
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: parents had sort of similar functions, you know, like daddy's mummy,

542
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: mummies daddy and everybody's happy. Yeah. I think we are

543
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: at an interesting tipping point socially and culturally as far as,

544
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: like you said, people realizing the importance of just being

545
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: a good parent, whether you are male or female, whether

546
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: your mom or dad or Bobba, whoever you are, and

547
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: the importance of you know, being loving and caring to

548
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: your child, regardless of what role you feel. Well. And

549
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: I also know of some straight couples as well, where

550
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: the father tends to engage in more stereotypical maternal activities

551
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: with the child and vice versa with the mom. Maybe

552
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: the mom is a little more outdoorsy and tends to

553
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: have a little more rough and tumble play with the kids.

554
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: So I think, if anything, it's a positive sign that

555
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: there is more acceptance of how there can be fluidity

556
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: in these roles. But when it comes to though, Caroline,

557
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: this whole daddy issues thing, can we circle back to

558
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: the daddy issues insult it? I don't know, is it

559
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: is it a Is it a phrase that we need

560
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: to retire? How well i'd like to see it retired.

561
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it is always such an ugly

562
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: insult to say to somebody. Yeah, I mean it's also

563
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: used a lot. If you just google around different combinations

564
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: with it, it is used a lot in headlines as

565
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: a clever turn of phrase to indicate that there there's

566
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: some kind of problems somewhere, like, oh this, you know,

567
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: this organization has daddy issues or whatever. So I don't know,

568
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: I just feel like it's so hackneat and cliche that, um,

569
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: maybe maybe we need to move beyond the daddy issues thing.

570
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: Or maybe I'm just also tired of it. You know,

571
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: everyone's saying that all feminists have daddy issues. Yeah, all right,

572
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 1: let's let's retire it collectively. We'll agree to do it. Okay,

573
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: all right, listeners, all right, well, and also listeners, now

574
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. We want to know

575
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: about your own dad daughter relationship, good, bad, non existent,

576
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,280
Speaker 1: How has that impacted you? And also what are yours

577
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: on the whole daddy's little girl thing daddy issues? Do

578
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: you think it should be retired or do you think

579
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: that it is useful in some applications? Let us know

580
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: all of your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot

581
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: com is where you can send us your letters. You

582
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: can also tweet us a mom sub podcast and send

583
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: us a message on Facebook as well. And we've got

584
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: a couple of messages that have nothing to do with

585
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: dads to share with you right now, I've gotta let

586
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: her here. From Hannah in response to our Women's Wanderlust episode,

587
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: she writes, I wanted to mention a few observations I've

588
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: made while traveling alone. I made my first alone trip

589
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: to India ten years ago at twenty one, and I've

590
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: kept going back ever since. And the part of the

591
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: observation of hers that I wanted to share with listeners

592
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: is this. My biggest problem traveling in India as a

593
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: woman has been finding toilets when on long trips through

594
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: rural areas. I've had to talk many a bus driver

595
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: into keeping the whole bus waiting while I wander off,

596
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: usually into some potentially snake infested field, to find a

597
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: discreet spot. Women in saries will often just lift their

598
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: skirt on the side of the road, and wearing pants

599
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: makes it more complicated. The lack of facilities for women

600
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: in India is a well known problem, and of course

601
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: much more serious for the local women who risk getting

602
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: raped when looking for a secluded space. For me, it's

603
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: a mere annoyance. Asked for the distinction between traveler and tourists,

604
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 1: I would just say that someone who insists on calling

605
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: herself a traveler and not a tourist is just a

606
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: very pretentious tourist. And I do think solo travel can

607
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: make you a bit self absorbed in the long run.

608
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: Whenever I've come across some of those self proclaimed off

609
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: the beaten track travelers who've been roaming around for years,

610
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: I make a sport out of timing how long it

611
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 1: takes them to ask a single question about anyone else.

612
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: I have experienced having hour long conversations in quotes about

613
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: the wonderfully intriguing travels of such people without even having

614
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: been asked or my name. This turned out, This letter

615
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: turned out long, and I could go on and on.

616
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: Sorry about that, and thanks for making my early commute

617
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: to work enjoyable. Sounds like she's running into some not

618
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: so great travelers for tourists. Yeah, so thanks Hannah. Okay,

619
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Gabby. She says, Hello, ladies. Hello,

620
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: I'm a Brazilian actress and have discovered your podcast recently.

621
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: Hello welcome. So your podcast on fat bottom Girls was

622
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: especially interesting for me. I grew up in a culture

623
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: that's really butt centric. That is my own analysis, but

624
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: I feel that globalization is changing preferences in Brazil in

625
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: front of my own eyes. As in the nineties, most

626
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: people would choose butts over breast. In the two thousand's,

627
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: globalization had a boom in quote and since then middle

628
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: and upper class males have been paying more attention to breasts.

629
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: The culture and cult of the bottoms were left to

630
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: the lower classes. That can be seen very specially in

631
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,959
Speaker 1: the music scene inside Brazil slums. A really popular rhythm

632
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: is called funk karaoka that valorizes a cultural vision really

633
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 1: similar to the North American rap. The lyrics and dances

634
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: tend to be really sexualized by men and women and

635
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: quite focused on the bottoms. So thank you, she signs

636
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: it lots of love from Brazil and lots of love

637
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: to you Gabby. As a new listener, we appreciate your letter. Yes, indeed,

638
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: we appreciate all of your letters. Keep them coming. Mom

639
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: Stuff at house stuff works dot com is where you

640
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 1: can send them, or you can always get in touch

641
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: by tweeting us a mom stuff podcast or messaging us

642
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: on Facebook and for links to all of our social

643
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