Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature, feature production of I Heart Radio. I'm
Speaker 1: your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology
Speaker 1: and evolutionary biology, and today on the show Where's Your
Speaker 1: Table Manners, Etiquette is a matter of perspective and species,
Speaker 1: from flamingos with topsy turvy eating habits to the goats
Speaker 1: who have more of an arboreal take on dining. You'll
Speaker 1: learn how to dine with all the animals and how
Speaker 1: to politely hold your termite stick depending on your chimpanzee, Hosts, tastes,
Speaker 1: discover this and more as we answer the age old
Speaker 1: question can Australia's version of the trash eating raccoon fly?
Speaker 1: Of course they can. Joining me today is food writer,
Speaker 1: host of the podcast smart Mouth, and expert on all
Speaker 1: things edible, Katherine Spires. Welcome, Thank you so much. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to talk about this. I had you on
Speaker 1: a long time ago, and I I'm trying to remember
Speaker 1: exactly what we talked about. It was food related, it
Speaker 1: was I think it was about animals that ate dirt
Speaker 1: um or or weird weird eating weird foods that animals ate. Yes,
Speaker 1: this sounds familiar, Yes, and I believe we did talk
Speaker 1: about her ducans on that or like a bird stuffed
Speaker 1: inside birds stuffed inside birds. Quite possibly, yes, I mean
Speaker 1: people love talking about those, so there's no reason why
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have. Know we we definitely would have. And
Speaker 1: then we did drink some dirt flavored soda, I believe, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I still can't believe. Like you managed to track
Speaker 1: down dirt flavored soda, you know, it was surprisingly easy.
Speaker 1: This was back when I was still in l A
Speaker 1: And there was a like a soda shop in Westwood
Speaker 1: that just had all sorts of weird sodas. They had
Speaker 1: like barf soda and cat peas soda. Yeah. I just
Speaker 1: saw at it on the dirt flavored one because that
Speaker 1: seemed like the least likely to make us throw up. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: good choice. But today we're talking about the table manners
Speaker 1: of some very interesting animals. I mean, table manners is
Speaker 1: very cultural, even with people like you know, the kinds
Speaker 1: of forks and spoons you use, if you use you know,
Speaker 1: cloth napkins, or if you're like me and you just
Speaker 1: tear up some paper towels and rubbed your face with it,
Speaker 1: it is very It's it depends on your culture. It
Speaker 1: depends on sort of where you are even within a country,
Speaker 1: and uh, your your individual upbringing. And it's a very
Speaker 1: there is no one set of table manners for humanity
Speaker 1: even Yeah, that's right. And it's like gets even more
Speaker 1: intense than that, because I would say table manners can
Speaker 1: also include things like bodily functions and their appropriateness at
Speaker 1: said table, which I think it's interesting, Yeah, exactly, and
Speaker 1: slurping for instance, Um, stuff like that. Etiquette, like in
Speaker 1: in the Western world was definitely conceived as something as
Speaker 1: like a unifier, which speaks to like how homogeneous people
Speaker 1: can sometimes be, because if you're like looking at the
Speaker 1: whole world, there's no way to have like universal table manners.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and I mean, you know, no right way really,
Speaker 1: although sometimes in the West people like to think that
Speaker 1: their way is the right way. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it is, Uh, it is. It's just highly individualized, and
Speaker 1: part of it's just going to be sort of by chance,
Speaker 1: like depending on you know, sort of your culture's history,
Speaker 1: and part of it is based on your cuisine, Like
Speaker 1: what you eat is going to determine how you eat it. Totally, yes,
Speaker 1: and we mind this is not only the case with humans,
Speaker 1: but very much the case with animals. Their individual eating
Speaker 1: style is determined to buy so many interesting factors, their diet,
Speaker 1: their evolutionary history. We'll even find out later in the
Speaker 1: show that within a single species you can have different
Speaker 1: eating habits, different manners, which I think is really fascinating
Speaker 1: because we sometimes think of animals as just these automatons
Speaker 1: that have have been pre programmed with some instincts and
Speaker 1: you lit them loose and they just do those things.
Speaker 1: But in fact, they seem to be able to learn
Speaker 1: and have cultures of their own. Yeah. I feel like
Speaker 1: this has probably been talked about on your show before,
Speaker 1: but having all these videos at our fingertips of like
Speaker 1: animals doing cute things has really changed my relationship with them,
Speaker 1: because when you see like a chicken getting excited about
Speaker 1: seeing their human and hugging their human, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: they like think about things, Yeah, something like eating habits, right,
Speaker 1: like the way that we eat. It's something so pivotal
Speaker 1: to our existence. I guess that it's so important, Like
Speaker 1: we celebrate our holidays mostly with stuff that we eat,
Speaker 1: with ways that we eat, eating traditions, and the fact
Speaker 1: that animals will have their little individual ways of eating
Speaker 1: as well. It's like, yeah, they have their own little
Speaker 1: personal worlds, their personal lives and and habits and and
Speaker 1: yeah it is. It is makes us, at least for me,
Speaker 1: it makes me sort of feel much more like they
Speaker 1: are fully realized beings. Yeah, no, me too, absolutely. So
Speaker 1: we're first going to talk about one of the loveliest
Speaker 1: animals in the animal Kingdom, very flamboyant, very fancy, the flamingo.
Speaker 1: They are so great. And this picture you're showing me
Speaker 1: of them, I thought was fake, Like I thought it
Speaker 1: was plastic. I didn't realize like how shiny flamingos are. Well,
Speaker 1: the what's interesting is they're very shiny in that picture
Speaker 1: because we're it's shot underwater, and because their feathers have
Speaker 1: these water resistant oil on it, they will when they
Speaker 1: are underwater. They have this like glistening shiny appearance because
Speaker 1: there's probably some air trapped in between their feathers and
Speaker 1: the water, and so that reflects light and makes them
Speaker 1: very shiny and luminous and even more spectacular than out
Speaker 1: above the water. Very beautiful. Yes, they are wonderfully pink.
Speaker 1: They are found all over the world. They're found in
Speaker 1: fresh brackish or salt water aquatic habitats in Africa, Asia, Europe,
Speaker 1: and the America's so they are almost a cosmopolitan bird.
Speaker 1: There are six species of flamingo uh. And you know,
Speaker 1: while it is true you may have heard that a
Speaker 1: group of flamingos is called a flamboyance, bio biologists generally
Speaker 1: don't use those like funny terms for groups of things,
Speaker 1: like they generally don't say like a murder of crows
Speaker 1: or something, or a flamboyance of flamingos. They will they'll
Speaker 1: just say flock. So I don't actually know who comes
Speaker 1: up with these goofy animal names, but I think they
Speaker 1: should probably be stopped. Stop them now before it gets
Speaker 1: two out of hand. But yeah, so flamingos have those
Speaker 1: wonderful pinky whitish feathers. They have long legs, perfect for
Speaker 1: waiting in water. They have that long s shaped neck
Speaker 1: and that big curved, downturned beak that has that much
Speaker 1: deeper lower half of the beak and sort of it's
Speaker 1: a it's a very interestingly shaped beak. It looks kind
Speaker 1: of like a scoop. Uh, And that's actually exactly what
Speaker 1: it is. Um. They will actually use that beak to
Speaker 1: scoop up water that contains their preferred diet of brine,
Speaker 1: shrimp and blue green algae. But first let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about their anatomy, because these are weird birds.
Speaker 1: Like they're very they're so beloved and ubiquitous, but if
Speaker 1: you like take a step back and you really look
Speaker 1: at them with fresh eyes, you see just such a weird,
Speaker 1: awkward looking animal. Yeah. Yeah, And I think the fact
Speaker 1: that like there uses lawn ornaments so frequently really speaks
Speaker 1: to like how odd they are. So you don't have
Speaker 1: like a lot of like pigeon decorative elements around the house.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I mean, you know, you don't really need
Speaker 1: to look too far for a pigeon, So putting up
Speaker 1: pigeons as decorations it seems a little bit like guilding
Speaker 1: the lily there, the little the pigeon lily. But yeah, so,
Speaker 1: so they are very strange looking, and those lawn ornaments
Speaker 1: they are typically it is the titular flamingo standing on
Speaker 1: one leg with the other leg kind of bent backwards
Speaker 1: and sort of just resting there. And this common misconception
Speaker 1: that flamingoes or even all birds have knees that been backwards.
Speaker 1: What you what you see there that looks like their
Speaker 1: knee is actually their ankle which is bending totally normally,
Speaker 1: just like our ankles bend. Oh I see, Oh that
Speaker 1: changes everything actually out of a balance. Yeah, so they
Speaker 1: have those ankles there. They do have knees, but you
Speaker 1: can typically not really see them. They're usually up close
Speaker 1: to their body, usually covered with feathers. And yeah, they
Speaker 1: can and do stand on one leg. They like to
Speaker 1: rest that way. The question of why they do that
Speaker 1: is still not fully understood, but the leading theory is
Speaker 1: that it conserves energy, which seems a little odd. If
Speaker 1: you do yoga or any kind of balancing, you know,
Speaker 1: it is actually pretty difficult to balance on one leg.
Speaker 1: But the way they may be able to do it
Speaker 1: is that they can lock a leg in place and
Speaker 1: just balance on this locked leg like they're sitting on
Speaker 1: a stool. And somehow they are using less muscle activity
Speaker 1: by sort of just sitting back on this one locked
Speaker 1: stool than they would be standing on two legs, which
Speaker 1: is very strange, but I suppose it works for them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: good for them. Also, flamingos can fly. We mostly see
Speaker 1: them sort of waiting sticking their heads underwater, standing around.
Speaker 1: But they are good flyers. They migrate between aquatic habitats,
Speaker 1: especially in areas where the wet and dry seasons change,
Speaker 1: and they need to migrate in order to basically follow
Speaker 1: the food source that will come with an aquatic habitat.
Speaker 1: In fact, they are such good flyers. An infamous flamingo
Speaker 1: escaped the Kansas Zoo in two thousand and five and
Speaker 1: was found in two thousand and nineteen, fourteen years later
Speaker 1: in Texas, living the free life of a pink cowboy.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, oh, I have so many questions. So
Speaker 1: was it tagged or something? Is that how they knew
Speaker 1: it was the same one they I you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it was tagged. It may have been.
Speaker 1: But the way they figured it out was people in
Speaker 1: Texas recorded this flamingo and like sent video of it,
Speaker 1: and the Kansas Zoo basically was able to say, yep,
Speaker 1: that that was one of ours, because we lost a
Speaker 1: couple of them. And that's you know, the right that
Speaker 1: that that there looks like a flamingo. To me, that's amazing.
Speaker 1: And was it living like was it feeding itself or
Speaker 1: were people feeding it? It was feeding itself, so it
Speaker 1: had found some an aquatic habitat. I think it is
Speaker 1: either by a river or um a saltwater habitatat and
Speaker 1: it was able to, Yeah, just take care of itself
Speaker 1: for those fourteen years. That's amazing, Yeah, it is. It
Speaker 1: is amazing. So flamingos are actually surprisingly hardy. Their legs
Speaker 1: are really tough, and they can wade in very alkaline water,
Speaker 1: so very acidic water. That is not you if we
Speaker 1: tried to wade in this water, we'd not be having
Speaker 1: a good time. It would burn our skin. But for
Speaker 1: the flamingos, they are able to tolerate it, and it
Speaker 1: actually helps them keep their nests safe, so they can,
Speaker 1: like sometimes they will find it nesting grounds that are
Speaker 1: surrounded by this really spicy water and it will protect
Speaker 1: them from predators. Oh that's so cool. Yeah, so can
Speaker 1: flamingos can, like one flamingo, go from saltwater to fresh
Speaker 1: water and vice versa and have an equally good time.
Speaker 1: It really just depends on whether that aquatic habitat has
Speaker 1: enough of their food source. I think they tend to
Speaker 1: like salt or brackish water because that tends to have
Speaker 1: the most in terms of their preferred diet, which is
Speaker 1: brine shrimp and blue green algae, but they do also
Speaker 1: eat crustaceans, insect, larva, and mollusks. So if they can
Speaker 1: find food in that area that they preferred diet, it
Speaker 1: will be fine, whether it's brackish or saltwater or fresh water.
Speaker 1: I see, these guys are really cool. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: know what, so onto their table manners, they are very
Speaker 1: strange eaters. They actually eat upside down, so they have
Speaker 1: those long necks and they will dunk their heads underwater,
Speaker 1: flip their heads upside down, and they will suck in
Speaker 1: some water that will contain that blue green algae, the
Speaker 1: brine shrimp, uh, you know, any little critter that they
Speaker 1: can suck up in there. And similar to actually baling whale,
Speaker 1: they will push out the muddy water that they don't
Speaker 1: want to eat through a filter and so they can
Speaker 1: eat just the food and not the muddy water that
Speaker 1: they've sort of churned up. And so they are actually
Speaker 1: filter feeders just like baling whales. Where is their filter
Speaker 1: It is inside their beaks. So their beaks are covered
Speaker 1: with hairy bristles called lamale, which cover their tongues and
Speaker 1: mouth and they can just kind of push the that food,
Speaker 1: or they can push that water through those hairy bristles
Speaker 1: and it will filter out the delicious, delectable brine shrimp, algae,
Speaker 1: and insect larva that they actually want to be eating. Okay,
Speaker 1: so that makes it easier that it's like part of
Speaker 1: their biology to do that. But then what is there, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, respiratory system upside how do they swallow
Speaker 1: while upside down? Um, I mean they breathe normally, They
Speaker 1: will surface and breathe normally. They can you know, close
Speaker 1: off there. You know, they aren't sucking in the water.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like if you took a dunked your
Speaker 1: head in a bowl of soup room temperature soup, not
Speaker 1: hot soup, took a bunch of the soup in your mouth,
Speaker 1: and then sort of you didn't want to eat the
Speaker 1: broth for some reason, even though the broth is usually
Speaker 1: the best part, and you just pushed all of the
Speaker 1: broth through your teeth and then you had this, uh
Speaker 1: you know, all the carrots and chicken chunks and noodles
Speaker 1: and whatever, and then that's the part that you just swallow,
Speaker 1: and you can swallow it underwater, you could pull your
Speaker 1: head back up and swallow it above the water, so
Speaker 1: you are you're not breathing in the soup. And the
Speaker 1: flamingo just basically live in their very own soup that
Speaker 1: they they will eat. Yeah, and because their diet is
Speaker 1: often made up of primarily brine shrimp and blue green algae,
Speaker 1: they are this lovely shade of pink because brian shrimp
Speaker 1: and blue green algae are very rich in carotenoids and
Speaker 1: carotenoids they are responsible for producing that lovely pink coloration
Speaker 1: in um birds and in flamingos. That is, I'm jealous
Speaker 1: of birds because I think those turn us turn humans
Speaker 1: more orange. Yeah, if they turned us this lovely perlescent
Speaker 1: pink could be great. Yeah. So you've probably heard of
Speaker 1: the the tail of like if you eat enough carrots
Speaker 1: you will turn orange, and that is actually somewhat true.
Speaker 1: You would need to eat just an enormous, sickening amount
Speaker 1: of carrots for that to happen. You would need to
Speaker 1: eat just I mean, I feel like it would be
Speaker 1: a lethal amount of carrots. I'm not even sure if
Speaker 1: that's possible to die from carrot overdose, but I mean
Speaker 1: I once thought I was gonna die because I I
Speaker 1: was younger and learning how to be healthy, and I
Speaker 1: was like, all right, so today I'm gonna eat this
Speaker 1: whole bowl of carrots because that's healthy. Carrots are healthy,
Speaker 1: so eating more carrots healthiest, and so I ate just
Speaker 1: a massive amount of carrots, and then I was lying
Speaker 1: on the floor with stomach cramps because apparently if you
Speaker 1: suddenly eat a bunch of high fiber vegetables, it will
Speaker 1: hurt your stomach massively. And I thought maybe I was
Speaker 1: gonna die. God, that is so very youthful of you
Speaker 1: to be like more is better, and now I don't
Speaker 1: feel well, so clearly I'm going to die. By youthful,
Speaker 1: I mean like twenty two just for reference, Uh, so
Speaker 1: I mean that counts. I was like, I was learning,
Speaker 1: learning to cook on my own, learning to sort of
Speaker 1: graduate from boxed macaroni to actually cooking real food, and
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, more carrots, the better, and then
Speaker 1: I almost almost overdosed on carrots. Didn't turn orange though,
Speaker 1: did not turn orange because if you want, if you
Speaker 1: want to get that orange glow from carrots, you would
Speaker 1: have to eat them every massive quantities of them every
Speaker 1: day for that to ever start to basically those carrots
Speaker 1: andoids to start to affect your pigment. I wonder if
Speaker 1: you could drink it and turn orange more quick. It's
Speaker 1: a good question. Could you Could you overdose on carrot juice?
Speaker 1: I guess is the question. Yeah, it seems like it
Speaker 1: would maybe be less painful because liquids tend to Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's easier to just pass through, right right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, in any case, I recommend a very diet
Speaker 1: and to try not to turn yourself orange by overdosing
Speaker 1: with carrots, even if it is strictly speaking possible. You know, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: you know there's spray on tan which is probably less
Speaker 1: painful than eating buckets of carrots a day. This is
Speaker 1: such good advice. So that actually explains why some flamingoes
Speaker 1: that you will see will be white, especially if you
Speaker 1: go to a zoo, you may see a lot of
Speaker 1: white flamingos because they are flamingos who are not able
Speaker 1: to get enough carotenoids from their diet. And while zoos
Speaker 1: may try to give them a good diet, it is
Speaker 1: really difficult to replicate their natural diet, and this actually
Speaker 1: does impact the flamingos health, and the pink color is
Speaker 1: actually what's called an honest signal in terms of sexual selection,
Speaker 1: because female flamingos actually, in fact this is I think
Speaker 1: pretty uh in terms of these sexes. They both will
Speaker 1: judge each other based on their pinkness, so you know,
Speaker 1: some some sex equality there. They look for a partner
Speaker 1: who is very pink, because that pink coloration means that
Speaker 1: that flamingo has been eating healthily, been getting plenty of
Speaker 1: those tasty Brian shrimp and blue green algae, and it
Speaker 1: is a good sign that this potential mate is very
Speaker 1: healthy and so less pink flamingos may have less success
Speaker 1: with mating. But the babies that they have are born
Speaker 1: as sort of grayish white. They are not born pink.
Speaker 1: They will only turn pink after they start to mature
Speaker 1: and get enough of those carotenoids from their diet. I
Speaker 1: see very interesting. I feel really bad for the the
Speaker 1: flamingos kept in zoos now. I mean, one wanted to
Speaker 1: escape so badly that I went to Texas and they
Speaker 1: aren't the right color for doing it. But yeah, so,
Speaker 1: so baby flamingos are born that sort of grayish white.
Speaker 1: They get their pink color from their diet, and they
Speaker 1: are actually fed something very special as babies, regurgitated red
Speaker 1: crop milk. So uh, mammals aren't the only ones that
Speaker 1: can produce milk, they just birds have a different way
Speaker 1: of doing it. So uh, Flamingos of both sexes produce
Speaker 1: a bright red crop milk from glands that line the
Speaker 1: entire digestive tract. So unlike mammals who produce milk from
Speaker 1: their mammaries, um flamingos and other birds like pigeons will
Speaker 1: produce a protein rich substance specifically for their offspring that
Speaker 1: they can regurgitate. And this crop milk of the flamingos
Speaker 1: contains red and white blood cells, protein, and fat, all
Speaker 1: perfect for a growing chick. And as they consume more
Speaker 1: of these carotenoids, they will eventually turn pink in adulthood. Wow. Wow,
Speaker 1: So I understand that this like in and of itself,
Speaker 1: is not more disgusting than like drinking the milk of
Speaker 1: other species, but it's a brand new idea to me,
Speaker 1: and I'm really struggling, like feeling really sickened by it.
Speaker 1: That's a lot it probably I'm gonna I'm gonna guess now,
Speaker 1: I've never smelled flamingo crop milk, but based on the
Speaker 1: smell of like just the flamingos at the San Diego Zoo,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say the crop milk probably doesn't smell great.
Speaker 1: It's probably not a good smell. Yeah. I try not
Speaker 1: to think too much about milk in general, Like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't smart. I don't actually drink that
Speaker 1: much milk. I I do eat ice cream though, which
Speaker 1: is derived from milk, and I do eat cheese. Uh
Speaker 1: that slight distance from milk of with the cheese and
Speaker 1: the ice cream does help me. But when I think
Speaker 1: too hard about milk, it starts to get to me,
Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm just thinking about like man, this this
Speaker 1: came out of a cow or a goat, like right
Speaker 1: out of them, right out of their udders. Yeah you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of strange also snarly. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: it's this like this weird fatty protein subs to and
Speaker 1: it came right out right out of that, right out
Speaker 1: of that animal. So good, it's so good. What are
Speaker 1: we supposed to do? I know there's nothing we can do. Um,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe we should treat the cows good on the farms.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you know, maybe maybe we should. No, yes,
Speaker 1: if we're being honest, like I think about this all
Speaker 1: the time. I don't in and of itself have a
Speaker 1: problem with eating animals or their products. It's but it's
Speaker 1: modern farming. Yeah, I agree, I think that. You know,
Speaker 1: I think if we are to avail ourselves of animal resources,
Speaker 1: the very least we can do is to treat them
Speaker 1: really well. And we don't do that so much. So
Speaker 1: we need to need to fix that. Um because I
Speaker 1: think it's going to take a while to put a
Speaker 1: crop milk ice cre him on the market. I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, well those baby baby flamingos would love it, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: would be so good for that. Speaking of garbage food,
Speaker 1: wild cockatoos in Australia have learned to raid trash cans
Speaker 1: for food. Okay, okay, So are they like raccoons with
Speaker 1: wings exactly? Yes, So sulfur crusted cockatoos are a popular
Speaker 1: pet but they are of course actual wild animals and
Speaker 1: they can be found in Australia in large wild flocks.
Speaker 1: So sulfur crusted cockatoos they are that snowy white bird
Speaker 1: with the little crest on the top of their head
Speaker 1: that is tipped in yellow, and they have grayish black beaks,
Speaker 1: and they are highly highly social, highly intelligent. And I
Speaker 1: always whenever I talk about these like wild parrots or cockatoos,
Speaker 1: I like to inform people that they are very difficult pets.
Speaker 1: They are expert here pets. Uh it is not pet
Speaker 1: to get out a whim. They really uh they have
Speaker 1: I think like the intelligence of a one or two
Speaker 1: year old human child. So yeah, they are very intelligent
Speaker 1: and very social. So um. Often they will have a
Speaker 1: lot of behavioral issues when they are made pets because
Speaker 1: they just do not they get really bored and frustrated
Speaker 1: and they will then you know, start start biting you.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay do you think I mean, doesn't that
Speaker 1: mean that like we shouldn't keep them as pets, because
Speaker 1: apparently dogs have the intelligence of two year old humans
Speaker 1: is what one study found. But they also seem to like, yes,
Speaker 1: well it really I think, you know, this isn't going
Speaker 1: to be another sort of zoo like answer where I
Speaker 1: think that generally speaking, they aren't great pets. If you
Speaker 1: if someone is a bird expert and knows what this
Speaker 1: bird needs, uh to be happy and is willing to
Speaker 1: basically be there for this bird and give it all
Speaker 1: the attention it needs for the rest of the bird's life.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, and it is it is It
Speaker 1: would be your entire life would revolve around the birds
Speaker 1: and making them happy. Um, then maybe it could work,
Speaker 1: but it just to me it seems the amount of
Speaker 1: effort it would be, like, I mean, it would be
Speaker 1: like having a two year old for the rest of
Speaker 1: your life. So if that's your thing, you can actually
Speaker 1: manage that, you know, I don't think it should be illegal,
Speaker 1: but right, well, I mean, so what is interesting these
Speaker 1: similarity between these cockatoos and dogs is they are they're
Speaker 1: very social animals, and dogs are very social. They have
Speaker 1: had the benefit of co evolving with us for thousands
Speaker 1: and thousands of years, and so they make actually very
Speaker 1: good pets because they can get a lot of fulfillment. Uh,
Speaker 1: and they can communicate well with humans, whereas these birds
Speaker 1: have the highly social element, but they are social with
Speaker 1: their own species. So they are not domesticated animals. They
Speaker 1: are wild animals that are some times tamed, but not
Speaker 1: domesticated like a dog. And so the cockatoos found in Sydney, Australia.
Speaker 1: While they can be found in uh suburban environments and
Speaker 1: people's neighborhoods, they are still very wild animals. They're actually
Speaker 1: urban adapters. So when cities take over a natural habitat,
Speaker 1: animals have a few choices. They can move away, uh,
Speaker 1: they can try to keep doing what they're doing, or
Speaker 1: they can change their behavior and exploit the presence of
Speaker 1: humans and intelligent birds, even things like rats and raccoons
Speaker 1: will often do that. They will try to exploit the
Speaker 1: human presence because why not, humans have already taken over
Speaker 1: their area. They might as well do their best to
Speaker 1: make the best out of the situation. Yeah, why not exactly.
Speaker 1: So you know, when you see a raccoon rifling through
Speaker 1: your trash, you may be annoyed, but look, you raccoons
Speaker 1: were here first, and now we've got our garbage out there,
Speaker 1: and why not avail themselves of our garbage. It's probably
Speaker 1: not the healthiest thing for them. But you know, right, well,
Speaker 1: so as someone who lives in l A and you
Speaker 1: you still live here, so you know, um, there are
Speaker 1: coyotes everywhere in l A. And are they doing the
Speaker 1: same thing, the same adaptation thing they are. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I think that they are more sort of like they've adapted,
Speaker 1: but they're not exploiting as much as some of the
Speaker 1: other animals. So, like I would say that things like rats, raccoons, pigeons, squirrels,
Speaker 1: they are exploitters. So they are urban exploitters. They have
Speaker 1: figured out how to avail themselves of human infrastructure and waste,
Speaker 1: whereas coyotes mostly try to kind of stay on the
Speaker 1: edges of human society and then but they will uh
Speaker 1: you know, eat the the other urban exploiters like rats, pigeons, raccoons.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe not a raccoon, raccoons pretty fierce, but
Speaker 1: a baby raccoon for sure. Although well they eat they
Speaker 1: probably what you were about to say. But yeah, they
Speaker 1: do sometimes eat small dogs and pets. Yeah, yeah, they
Speaker 1: totally do. An on Aslee, I don't know if we're
Speaker 1: like watching evolution in real time, it can't possibly be
Speaker 1: having this fast, right, But since I've moved to l
Speaker 1: A like sixteen years ago, I feel like the canaties
Speaker 1: have gotten boulder Like they jump into people's yards now,
Speaker 1: they will follow if you're walking your dog on a leash,
Speaker 1: they'll still follow you even though, like dogs right next
Speaker 1: to a human, they're getting wild out here and smarter.
Speaker 1: I think, well, you know, it's interesting you say that
Speaker 1: because even though genetic evolution tends to be slow, somewhat slow,
Speaker 1: although you know, with extreme pressures, it can definitely happen
Speaker 1: much more quickly than you would think, Like you can
Speaker 1: have UM with adequate pressure. Some genetic changes that happen
Speaker 1: over uh, you know, several generations, usually not too extreme,
Speaker 1: but some at least certainly. We can see that when
Speaker 1: we try to like put artificial selection on an animal
Speaker 1: in just like a few deck gids, you actually see
Speaker 1: like some really interesting changes in their their genetics. UM.
Speaker 1: But with coyotes you will have like, you know, fluctuations
Speaker 1: I think in both things like kyote population and coyote
Speaker 1: boldness based on the availability of food, on their proximity
Speaker 1: to urban environments. And you know, coyotes are pretty smart.
Speaker 1: They are, I think they're they I'm not sure like
Speaker 1: where I would rank them next to something like a cockatoo.
Speaker 1: Cockatoo's puzzle solving is probably better. It's always hard to
Speaker 1: sort of compare intelligence between two different species because their
Speaker 1: intelligence is just going to be very different it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily better overall, it's going to be better in some
Speaker 1: ways and worse than other ways. But coyotes um are
Speaker 1: highly intelligent. There there are social pack animals, and so
Speaker 1: they have um a lot of really complex behaviors. And
Speaker 1: so it wouldn't surprise me if over sort of you know,
Speaker 1: even over shorter periods of times, they could get bolder
Speaker 1: or more timid based on the situation and based on
Speaker 1: maybe even learning from their other coyote, their other pack
Speaker 1: or their parents, learning their behavior and sort of taking
Speaker 1: cues from that. And this is actually what is happening
Speaker 1: with the cockatoos in Sydney. So they are learning from
Speaker 1: each other how to open garbage cans. So certain sulfur
Speaker 1: crusted cockatoo flocks figured this trick out. It probably started
Speaker 1: with one or maybe a few individuals learning this and
Speaker 1: uh then it spread to other individuals in this flock.
Speaker 1: And like I said, cockatoos are very intelligent. They're great
Speaker 1: puzzle solvers, so it really doesn't take too much in
Speaker 1: terms of inspiring them to figure this out. So now
Speaker 1: you have entire flocks of these cockatoos who understand how
Speaker 1: to open these garbage camps. But I am so proud
Speaker 1: of them. I love that. I mean, I know I'm
Speaker 1: not in Australia, so I can't be annoyed by it.
Speaker 1: I think that is so great. And this article that
Speaker 1: you linked to says that um garbage cans are look
Speaker 1: the same across all of Australia. Is that like part
Speaker 1: of the puzzle solving that they're good at. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a white bin with a red thing on top.
Speaker 1: I know what that means. You know what I bet
Speaker 1: it is. I think you're probably exactly right, because you
Speaker 1: know they have learned that this is a source of
Speaker 1: amazing thrown out. I don't know what is it, veggammite
Speaker 1: what they have in Australia, and they are super into that.
Speaker 1: I actually don't know if they like vegam might maybe
Speaker 1: even a cockatoo was like, I don't know about this.
Speaker 1: I like, I eat garbage, but I'm not gonna not
Speaker 1: gonna eat vegamine. I'm sorry, I actually I don't know
Speaker 1: that much about veggammite. Maybe it's very good. I apologize
Speaker 1: to all my Australian listeners. I'm just teasing you. It's
Speaker 1: probably great and I love you guys. Yeah, that is
Speaker 1: so funny because I think does the general public no,
Speaker 1: Like Australians love podcasts more than any other nationality. We
Speaker 1: have to be so careful about as east right, And
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Australia. I talk about Australia all
Speaker 1: the time because they have some of the most amazing
Speaker 1: animals there. So yeah, I got I gotta be careful
Speaker 1: about insulting Benjamine. I'm gonna lose like of my listeners.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so so these uh, these sulfur crested cockatoos
Speaker 1: are showing some evidence that these birds can have a
Speaker 1: culture because it is certain flocks of these that have
Speaker 1: figured out this garbage opening eating technique. And so you know,
Speaker 1: you could say that these cockatoos have a culture of
Speaker 1: you know, garbage eating, which I think is just really
Speaker 1: interesting because we think of humans as having a culture.
Speaker 1: But then when we try to extend that to animals, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's it's a harder sell to
Speaker 1: be like, no, animals can have a culture. But in
Speaker 1: my opinion, this is absolutely a sign of animal culture
Speaker 1: because they're learning something like you have some innovators who
Speaker 1: learn this and then they pass it on down the generation.
Speaker 1: So you'll have young cockatoos, young naive cockatoos learning this
Speaker 1: from their flock and then doing that behavior. And I
Speaker 1: think that's a perfect description of culture. Yeah, I agree, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Another thing, I think that's really interesting, especially because you're
Speaker 1: bringing up your observations on coyotes in l a Um.
Speaker 1: The research on these cockatoos was done using citizen science,
Speaker 1: so residents of a community documenting the behavior of animals
Speaker 1: that they will see in their more suburban or even
Speaker 1: urban environment, and then they will send their findings to researchers.
Speaker 1: And if you live in l a Um or Sydney
Speaker 1: or I mean probably many many cities around the world,
Speaker 1: there are if you like Google, like citizen science and
Speaker 1: then your city, you can usually find places that you
Speaker 1: can like send photos to or send observations too. And
Speaker 1: they really really appreciate, uh you writing in because you
Speaker 1: will help with their research, with their observation. So if
Speaker 1: you see something interesting, if you take a picture of it,
Speaker 1: you can send it into I think I Naturalist is
Speaker 1: a really good one because I think that's um for
Speaker 1: a lot of different regions. You can send that in
Speaker 1: and then tag basically where you spotted this animal, and
Speaker 1: then researchers can look up these observations for their research.
Speaker 1: So yeah, if you if you feel like helping out
Speaker 1: with UH with animal behavioral research and you spot an animal,
Speaker 1: um of course, never approached the animal, never try to,
Speaker 1: you know, do your own experiment on the animal. But
Speaker 1: if you take a picture of it or make an observation,
Speaker 1: you can send it. Send it into like I Naturalists,
Speaker 1: or like google citizen science UH with your city name,
Speaker 1: and usually you'll you'll find some things there. And it's
Speaker 1: really cool. It's really amazing that we can all kind
Speaker 1: of get together and learn more about garbage rating, cockatoos
Speaker 1: or even like coyotes in Los Angeles. I just had
Speaker 1: the most fascist idea, but I believe in it. I
Speaker 1: think I feel like every time you move somewhere, you
Speaker 1: should be required to do citizen science for a year.
Speaker 1: I'm on board with this. If you want to become
Speaker 1: the dictator and and do this, I for one supported Okay, good,
Speaker 1: I found my first supporter. Yeah, because people can sometimes
Speaker 1: be so disconnected from everything around them, including the animals.
Speaker 1: And I do think like this is such a stupid example,
Speaker 1: but sometimes I'll hear like banging around in the little
Speaker 1: breezeway behind my bedroom, and you would think that that
Speaker 1: would be scary, except for I've learned by now that
Speaker 1: that is the resident raccoons who are, by the way,
Speaker 1: that most enormous raccoons I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 1: They live in my neighborhood and it's just them, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know why they're so loud, but they do
Speaker 1: it all the time, and I'm not scared of it.
Speaker 1: So like everyone who moves to a new neighborhood to
Speaker 1: have that understanding of like the other creatures around them.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we've these sort of sprawl of
Speaker 1: human society has been pretty pretty drastic, I would say,
Speaker 1: And so yeah, getting used to our animal neighbors, I mean,
Speaker 1: and not seeing them as you know, pests, because like
Speaker 1: raccoon outside is not not hurting you. You know, you
Speaker 1: don't want to pick it up and let it scratch
Speaker 1: your face up, but you know it's it's not hurting anyone.
Speaker 1: Maybe it'll make a little bit of a rucus, but
Speaker 1: probably to them. We're making a lot of rucus with
Speaker 1: our with our exact weird metal things with wheels and
Speaker 1: our weird trees that buzzing sounds with big wires coming
Speaker 1: out of them, so you know, perspective, we're the loud ones. Also,
Speaker 1: one time, my dog and I were chased by a skunk,
Speaker 1: and I keep hearing people be like, skunks don't chase
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I didn't make this up. I need
Speaker 1: to report this to someone. We should understand that skunks
Speaker 1: are piste off enough at us now that they will
Speaker 1: chase us. Yeah. My scariest animal encounter was with a
Speaker 1: skunk standing fully upright, like not even you know, the
Speaker 1: back the handstand they do when they're about to spray you.
Speaker 1: He was just like standing on his hind legs like
Speaker 1: a person staring at me from the darkness, and for
Speaker 1: some reason it just looked it looked like a tiny sasquatch,
Speaker 1: and I and my dog and I both panicked. So I,
Speaker 1: I for one thinks, as much as I love skunks
Speaker 1: and I think they're amazing, if you if one of
Speaker 1: them is standing staring at you at nighttime, it's scary. Yeah. No, absolutely.
Speaker 1: The one that chased us was screaming to like it
Speaker 1: was a full experience terrified. Yeah, yeah, weird, weird. It
Speaker 1: wasn't the time we got sprayed. We got sprayed by
Speaker 1: a different skunk. This one just chased us. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: figure it had babies or something like that. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: like they'll sometimes try other techniques to scare you off
Speaker 1: other than spraying you, because you know, they would prefer
Speaker 1: not to have to waste their their good that good
Speaker 1: skunk juice that they've been cultivated. So like, if they can,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of scare you off without having to
Speaker 1: spray you, they will, But like they will definitely spray
Speaker 1: you if you present to them a threat, especially doggies,
Speaker 1: because doggies don't get it. They think that they're making
Speaker 1: a new friend. They think they're sniffing a new butt,
Speaker 1: and then they're going to get sprayed in the face
Speaker 1: and then it's tomato juice baths for weeks. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the worst experience I've ever had. So we have
Speaker 1: talked about birds who will go just about everywhere but
Speaker 1: trees to feed. So what exactly do you think we're
Speaker 1: gonna find in a tree today? Well, if I had
Speaker 1: to guess something that's not supposed to be in a tree,
Speaker 1: well that's all just a matter of perspective, because we're
Speaker 1: gonna find some goats right in a tree. So goats
Speaker 1: are wonderful climbers. Uh, and they can indeed climb trees
Speaker 1: and they will do it. Yeah yeah, well, so goats
Speaker 1: are incredible. I love pigmy goats because they're absolutely the cutest,
Speaker 1: so cute. We had them when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: mostly pigmy goats, but occasionally we get other kinds of goats,
Speaker 1: and I remember not caring for Nubian goats. Um, I
Speaker 1: don't think they're I mean, pygmies are probably more used
Speaker 1: to humans because they're so cute, and sometimes people keep
Speaker 1: them as like indoor pets. But Nubians are like, I
Speaker 1: don't know why I'm here. I don't know why you're here.
Speaker 1: They're seriously, they're like they're they're a serious. I mean,
Speaker 1: they are domestic goats, but they they mean business. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're not here for a good time. I mean they're
Speaker 1: there for a good time, but not for your good time.
Speaker 1: Oh shoot, I thought it was all about me again.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so uh yeah, goats in Morocco will climb
Speaker 1: trees to eat argon fruit. So uh. These goats are domesticated,
Speaker 1: but like many domesticated animals found all over the world,
Speaker 1: they often are very comfortable roaming free rather than being
Speaker 1: restricted to feeding in confinement. In fact, one might say
Speaker 1: they prefer to be able to roam around and feed
Speaker 1: in graze and engage in interesting feeding behaviors all on
Speaker 1: their own. Imagine imagine that. So, uh yeah, this will
Speaker 1: lead to really interesting behaviors, such as the goats climbing
Speaker 1: trees to feed on the argon fruits. So, and this
Speaker 1: is not just one goat hanging out in a tree.
Speaker 1: This is many goats in a single tree hanging out,
Speaker 1: which can be a really interesting site. I can't imagine
Speaker 1: seeing this in real life. I would absolutely lose my mind.
Speaker 1: This is so funny. It's also cute. It's also like
Speaker 1: slightly menacing. There's a lot going on. If I didn't
Speaker 1: know what this was and then I happened upon it,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, well, I'm about to get possessed by Satan,
Speaker 1: aren't I? Yeah? This is like what's that goat's name
Speaker 1: from the Witch? Like handsome Handsome Jack or something. No,
Speaker 1: that's from a video game. What's the goat? What's the
Speaker 1: goat from the goat? Goat from the Witch? What's his name?
Speaker 1: Black Philip? That's him. It's so cute. I can't. It's
Speaker 1: really hard for me to take that horror movie seriously
Speaker 1: because he's such a cute little goaty. I think goats
Speaker 1: are very cute, yes, but you know, goats, they have
Speaker 1: a fierce personality. Like you mentioned, not all goats want
Speaker 1: to necessarily, you know, just like hang out and cuttle
Speaker 1: and romp around indoors. They like to be outside and
Speaker 1: be wild and do their stuff, which in this case
Speaker 1: for these Moroccan goats is climbing up trees, chewing on
Speaker 1: these argon fruits and spitting out the seed. So herders
Speaker 1: because again these are typically not just like or feral goats,
Speaker 1: These are actually goats that belong to a goat herder.
Speaker 1: But they will encourage their goats to climb the trees
Speaker 1: to get more I mean it ranges the why people
Speaker 1: like these goats to climb the trees. Sometimes it's a
Speaker 1: good thing, sometimes it's a little more nefarious. So in
Speaker 1: the autumn um, the you know goats like, and in
Speaker 1: sort of the more winter months, it's a little harder
Speaker 1: for goats to get good nutrition um, so the goat
Speaker 1: herders will sometimes prune the trees to make it easier
Speaker 1: for the goats to climb up there so that they
Speaker 1: can eat the argon fruits get a little more nutrition.
Speaker 1: And they will actually sort of cultivate these trees specifically
Speaker 1: so that the goats can climb up when the fruit
Speaker 1: are ripe and ready for these goats to eat them. Okay,
Speaker 1: I love that, but reminds me of those what do
Speaker 1: you call them? Cat? Whatever's cat or catap No, It's
Speaker 1: like when people will build structures in their house for
Speaker 1: their cat climb on or cat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, cat walks,
Speaker 1: cat trees. I'm not really you know, cats, uh, cat
Speaker 1: high rises exactly. It's just sort of the same thing.
Speaker 1: And I understand that there's like a more basic reason
Speaker 1: for doing it, but like to imagine some people actually
Speaker 1: have fun like pruning these trees in a specific way.
Speaker 1: It's this is adorable so far. Yes, I mean sometimes
Speaker 1: the goat herders also gain from the goats eating the fruit.
Speaker 1: I mean, the goats are having a good time eating
Speaker 1: that fruit, and the goat herders will collect the argon
Speaker 1: seeds that they spit out, which can be pressed into
Speaker 1: a highly valuable argon oil, which is used both in
Speaker 1: cuisine and in cosmetic products. Yeah, I was thinking argon
Speaker 1: oil is probably really big business right now. It's in
Speaker 1: like it's such a selling point of so many skincare products.
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, And so you know, good chance that your
Speaker 1: argon oil was spit out by a goat. I love that. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: some maybe little bit less scrupulous herders will run a
Speaker 1: little bit of a goat in tree racket. Uh. They
Speaker 1: will encourage or manipulate the goats to stand in the
Speaker 1: trees so that tourists can take photos of them. And
Speaker 1: it's I mean, if they're just encouraging the goat to
Speaker 1: go up in the tree, or hoisting up the goat
Speaker 1: and putting it in the tree, it's probably okay. But
Speaker 1: if the goats are tied to the tree, I don't
Speaker 1: think that's a great time for the goat. Just I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: generally speaking, if the goat wants to be in the tree,
Speaker 1: the goat will go up in the tree. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: I have this thing lately about leaving animals alone, Like
Speaker 1: I always wanted to go on safari, and now I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't want to go on safari, Like they don't
Speaker 1: need us watching them all the time and coming into
Speaker 1: their habitat. So yeah, no tying goats and trees. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that like if you see goats
Speaker 1: hanging out and trees eating organs argon fruit, and you
Speaker 1: want to like take a picture of them and stuff,
Speaker 1: it's I don't think that's really hurting the goats, But yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't want to tie them up in the trees.
Speaker 1: That's probably not good. But I think from what I read,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's like super common. I think the
Speaker 1: most common thing is just you know, goats like to
Speaker 1: climb up there and eat the argon seeds or the fruit,
Speaker 1: at least the fruit that surrounds the seeds. And the
Speaker 1: interesting thing there was actually research done on the these
Speaker 1: goats to determine whether they poop the seeds out or
Speaker 1: they spit the seeds out, and they actually they do
Speaker 1: indeed spit the seed out more than and they don't
Speaker 1: generally actually eat the seed because argon seeds are pretty
Speaker 1: big and they're too large to comfortably pass through the
Speaker 1: goats digestive system, so they will spit them out or
Speaker 1: regurgitate them rather than poop them out. I see. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that's a comfort to some argon oil enthusiasts,
Speaker 1: I suppose, although I mean people eat that or drink
Speaker 1: that coffee from the civit what is it? The copy
Speaker 1: look coffee that is like from the digestive digested coffee
Speaker 1: cherries that civets will will eat and pass through, and
Speaker 1: so that is collected from civitt poop. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: just learned about the process of decaffeinating coffee, and I
Speaker 1: know not everyone drinks decaff but there's all kinds of
Speaker 1: horrible chemicals involved, and so I'm like, that's like the
Speaker 1: civitt poop is the least of our lords. I actually
Speaker 1: cannot recommend drinking the civitt poop coffee. I mean, first
Speaker 1: of all, it's obscenely expensive. So why Also there are
Speaker 1: they're like unfortunately because it got so popular, probably because
Speaker 1: of the weirdness of it. Uh, they're like these civit farms.
Speaker 1: So instead of just like collecting the civit poop, it's
Speaker 1: like these civits like in in this sort of farm
Speaker 1: situation where it's kind of like kind of like the CAFOs,
Speaker 1: like the concentrated animal feeding operations where they you know,
Speaker 1: put them in very small uh containers and like overfeed
Speaker 1: them so that they poop out more and that that's bad,
Speaker 1: you know. So, yeah, humans are so weird, very straight,
Speaker 1: like we cannot just be like oh this is cool,
Speaker 1: Like we just demand more and more and more and
Speaker 1: don't go how like why why do we have that
Speaker 1: as a species? I mean I could I could just
Speaker 1: say because of money, but that's probably a little bit
Speaker 1: of a cop out. Well someone should find out, Yeah,
Speaker 1: someone should get on that. Why why humans so naughty
Speaker 1: should be? That should be a study. She was such naughty,
Speaker 1: naughty rascals. Yeah, no, it's you know, I think that
Speaker 1: we can definitely how we can definitely admire animals and
Speaker 1: even you know, even have sort of these interesting interactions
Speaker 1: where like they eat the fruit, they like the fruit,
Speaker 1: we want the seeds, they spit out the seeds. That's fine,
Speaker 1: just as long as we're not jerks about it, right yeah, which,
Speaker 1: you know, it sounds like a lot of people, a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of people that manage these goats
Speaker 1: are not jerks about so I think it's potentially okay.
Speaker 1: You know, I have not looked into like whether it
Speaker 1: exploits human aber. Maybe it does and that would make
Speaker 1: me sad, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, so so far,
Speaker 1: so good in fingers crossed, fingers crossed. Otherwise we need
Speaker 1: the goats and people to form a union, you know,
Speaker 1: wouldn't be cool. Yeah, I would. If I unionized with
Speaker 1: a goat, I would feel extremely, like, very secure, because
Speaker 1: I know that goat would like have my back. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I gotta imagine that once a goat says they'll do something,
Speaker 1: they really commit to it. Yeah. Oh absolutely, I mean
Speaker 1: just very very stubborn. They could sit in a tree
Speaker 1: and be like, you can't. You can't break this strike
Speaker 1: because you'd have to come up in this tree first,
Speaker 1: which you can't. Yes, they have such good organizing tactics. Yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 1: And so what's interesting about this is these are, of
Speaker 1: course domesticated goats. These are goats that have been selectively
Speaker 1: bred to be insticated to be better of farm animals, um,
Speaker 1: to make it easier for us to collect their milk,
Speaker 1: you know, even use them for meat. So the question
Speaker 1: is like, did these argon trees like the fact that
Speaker 1: they spit out the seeds means that they are able
Speaker 1: to do some seed dispersal, which is potentially good for
Speaker 1: the argon tree. Too many goats in the trees is
Speaker 1: actually bad, like that can damage them or if the
Speaker 1: goats can get in the trees before the fruit is ripe.
Speaker 1: So the question is like, do these are these argon trees?
Speaker 1: Could they have evolved sort of with the goats in mind,
Speaker 1: because goats, the domesticated goats, are a lot younger than
Speaker 1: the trees, like the trees have been around a lot longer.
Speaker 1: So if the argon trees had any sort of evolutionary
Speaker 1: relationship with goats, it would have to be with their ancestors.
Speaker 1: And the original wild goats from which we bred domesticated
Speaker 1: goats did act actually originate in the Mediterranean basin, which
Speaker 1: includes Morocco, and so it is possible that these wild
Speaker 1: goat ancestors did actually climb these argon trees and chew
Speaker 1: up fruits and spit them out, just like the modern
Speaker 1: domesticated goats. In fact, close relatives of the wild goat,
Speaker 1: the Ibex dusk, sometimes climb trees to graze, which indicates
Speaker 1: that the tree climbing of domesticated goats maybe a wild
Speaker 1: behavior that they've retained over all of this time of domestication.
Speaker 1: That is just very cool, these modern goats doing ancient things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that for them. Yeah, I like it for
Speaker 1: them too. Good for you. Goats. Also, I don't know
Speaker 1: what breed of goats these are, but these goats the
Speaker 1: you have pictures of are so shaggy, they're very cute.
Speaker 1: I mean I think they are. They might. I mean
Speaker 1: basically there are there are a few Moroccan breeds of goats.
Speaker 1: But yeah, they're just they're just Moroccan domesticated goats. I
Speaker 1: think there may be like two or three breeds that
Speaker 1: tend to tend to be in these herds, so uh yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean they're they're all all domesticated goats,
Speaker 1: I think are derived from the same line of goats. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then they of course, it's kind of like dog
Speaker 1: breeds how like, even though they're all derived from sort
Speaker 1: of the same line of lineage of original uh, domesticated dogs,
Speaker 1: we have a huge diversity of them because of how
Speaker 1: strange we are when domesticating them. So we have the
Speaker 1: Chihuahua and then the Great Dane and they're both dogs. Um. Similarly,
Speaker 1: I think these goats, uh, you know, they they are
Speaker 1: of these just the general domesticated goat lineage, but they
Speaker 1: are specifically a few breeds of Moroccan goats. Okay, I
Speaker 1: they're nice, they are very flack. So table manners can
Speaker 1: be wild, like the flamingos who eat upside down and
Speaker 1: spit out muddy water, or goats who eat up in
Speaker 1: trees and spit out seeds because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: spitting that they do. But we have also talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about table manners and culture. So uh, we
Speaker 1: talked about those sulfur crested cockatoos that seem to have
Speaker 1: a bit of culture of learning how to open garbage
Speaker 1: cans from their flock. Uh. And humans, of course, as
Speaker 1: we talked about, have different kinds of table manners across cultures,
Speaker 1: from how you hold your utensils to what kind of
Speaker 1: utensils you use. It's all sort of there. There's a
Speaker 1: huge diversity in terms of food culture and what is
Speaker 1: considered rude in one culture may be considered polite and
Speaker 1: another like like you were mentioning earlier, Catherine about like
Speaker 1: burping and slurping. Mm hmm. Yeah. And so two of
Speaker 1: my interests are one is etiquette books and one is
Speaker 1: advice columns. And something that I've seen come up a
Speaker 1: couple of times is when Americans go to Europe and
Speaker 1: vice versa, and some people. I'm remembering in particular this
Speaker 1: letter about someone with New German colleagues and the Germans
Speaker 1: were mean to this American about the way the hands
Speaker 1: in which she was holding her knife and her fork.
Speaker 1: And I'm left handed, so I can never remember which
Speaker 1: one is correct in America. But it's so interesting that
Speaker 1: it can be that minute, like which which hand is
Speaker 1: holding the fork? Like ultimately who cares. But at the
Speaker 1: other hand, people can make a big deal out of
Speaker 1: it and like shame you for it, which is not
Speaker 1: the intention of etiquette. Yeah, and I mean here in Italy,
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to learn all of the different rules
Speaker 1: of a kid. I'm sure I break them constantly. And
Speaker 1: it really depends to on your region. I live in
Speaker 1: Northern Italy and southern Italy. There you have a whole
Speaker 1: different set of etiquette and rules. And I'm, you know,
Speaker 1: because I haven't lived in southern Italy, I don't know
Speaker 1: too much about it. But one of my friends was
Speaker 1: telling me about this is that like you, if you
Speaker 1: eat everything off your plate in certain and certain locations
Speaker 1: in southern Italy, it is a sign that you want
Speaker 1: more food, so you are basically you have to leave
Speaker 1: if you're done eating, you have to leave a little
Speaker 1: bit on your plate, because basically what that's saying is
Speaker 1: that you have you simply cannot eat more food, but
Speaker 1: it was delicious and you'd like to eat more, but
Speaker 1: you are so full you can't even finish the last
Speaker 1: few scraps on your plate. But if you clean your
Speaker 1: plate off, it means that you have such a good
Speaker 1: appetite that you could eat more, and so they'll serve
Speaker 1: you more, and you know expect that you want more.
Speaker 1: So that stuff is so hard. There's a Russian staurant
Speaker 1: here in l A that I like, but the owner,
Speaker 1: if you don't clean your whole plate will be absolutely
Speaker 1: crust full. And it's just it's like, I don't even
Speaker 1: know if it's cultured by culture. It might be house
Speaker 1: by house, like whether you're supposed to finish all your
Speaker 1: food or that one is so tough, and like, we
Speaker 1: wouldn't need all these arcane etiquette rules if we were
Speaker 1: allowed in every society to just be like, I'm not
Speaker 1: very hungry right now, but sometimes you aren't supposed to
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, yeah, I mean it is. It's so
Speaker 1: it's very tricky. Well, just as humans have different rules
Speaker 1: of etiquette based on your country, the specific location in
Speaker 1: your country, your culture, even your own family. It's just
Speaker 1: so so many different types of etiquette. This is the
Speaker 1: case for our cousins, the chimpanzee. Uh So, chimpanzees are
Speaker 1: our evolutionary cousins that you know you may not want
Speaker 1: to invite to dinner, But we are a laden and
Speaker 1: they are very complex eaters with a very diet there omnivores.
Speaker 1: They are also highly intelligent, highly social, and they are
Speaker 1: capable of using tools. And so researchers wondered if all
Speaker 1: chimpanzees have the same eating habits, used the same tools, essentially,
Speaker 1: whether they use the same utensils, whether they have the
Speaker 1: same manners, or if they could differ based on their population.
Speaker 1: So they presented two different chimpanzees from different populations with
Speaker 1: a food puzzle, so thin holes filled with honey. Basically,
Speaker 1: they drilled these thin holes in like I think a
Speaker 1: piece of wood or or or some other solid block,
Speaker 1: and then filled it with honey, which chimpanzees love. Who
Speaker 1: doesn't love honey? I love honey. Um. And so one
Speaker 1: group of chimps is like one population of chimps tended
Speaker 1: to use their fingers or roll up leaves to get
Speaker 1: at the honey, whereas the other separate chimp population tended
Speaker 1: to use sticks instead. And so they found that this
Speaker 1: actually correlated to their habits, like when they're just generally
Speaker 1: eating anything. So in one population they tend to use
Speaker 1: their fingers or they use rolled up leaves as their
Speaker 1: tools to get like termites out of a mound, whereas
Speaker 1: the other population would tend to use sticks as their utensil.
Speaker 1: And so these two different separate groups would have different
Speaker 1: ways of solving this puzzle based on the etiquette basically
Speaker 1: of their their own population. That is so cool. That
Speaker 1: is so interesting to hear about. And I guess like
Speaker 1: I shouldn't be so like blown away by it because
Speaker 1: we know that humans use different utensils. But this is
Speaker 1: really cool. I like knowing that. Yeah, it is cool.
Speaker 1: I mean it's I think it is good too. It's
Speaker 1: humbling to remember that we aren't We are special as
Speaker 1: a species, but we're not as special maybe as we
Speaker 1: think in terms of uh like that every aspect of
Speaker 1: human culture is not completely unique, right right? Yes? And
Speaker 1: what's so what's interesting with the chimpanzees is that they
Speaker 1: probably excel on two fronts, both on individual problem solving
Speaker 1: and social learning. So if you have a naive chimp
Speaker 1: chimpoo has not had the opportunity to learn from other chimpanzees,
Speaker 1: they will figure out tool use on their own. Um,
Speaker 1: but they are also very good at learning and they're
Speaker 1: highly social, so they will copy behaviors. So these chimpanzees
Speaker 1: will copy these behaviors, not because it is the only
Speaker 1: way for them to learn how to use a tool,
Speaker 1: because they can learn on their own, but it is
Speaker 1: because they are really optimized for being highly social. So
Speaker 1: even though they are capable of learning how to figure
Speaker 1: out tools on their own, they tend to go with
Speaker 1: what the other chimpanzees in their own group are doing,
Speaker 1: so they will they prefer basically to learn maybe from
Speaker 1: their mother or from their peers. Then they would do
Speaker 1: just like trying to haphazardly learn on their own, which
Speaker 1: is exactly what we did exactly. Yeah, Like, we can
Speaker 1: figure out problems on our own, but it is so
Speaker 1: much easier and so much better to learn from each other. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if one of our ancestors already figured it out, let's
Speaker 1: go with that. Well, not to be a pedant but uh,
Speaker 1: the they aren't actually our ancestors, they are our cousins,
Speaker 1: so we Oh no, I meant as humans, So I was,
Speaker 1: I was really patronizing for no reason. It's okay, I
Speaker 1: do that all the time. It happens podcasters. Actually, did
Speaker 1: you see me, like push my glasses up and like
Speaker 1: go actually actually Katherine, Yes, so yes, we yes, our
Speaker 1: human ancestors we we like to learn from. And you know,
Speaker 1: I imagine like if if chimpanzees and humans had to
Speaker 1: eat dinner together, that we would maybe disagree on how
Speaker 1: to hold our you know, various implements, but you know,
Speaker 1: we'd we'd we'd all be trying. Yeah, And like if
Speaker 1: that happened, if humans could get over themselves enough to
Speaker 1: be like this is different, we're not better, then that
Speaker 1: would be illuminating as well, because it's not like about
Speaker 1: us having to teach them how to do something. It's
Speaker 1: like they actually have their own way doing it. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I love that, And I would though also love if
Speaker 1: like chimpanzee got really offended that you were using a
Speaker 1: fork and not rolled up leaf, smack the fork out
Speaker 1: of your hand and be like that is not how
Speaker 1: we do things around yet yes, I love that I
Speaker 1: could see it happening. I don't. I don't know if
Speaker 1: this is just correlation, but I feel like I've heard
Speaker 1: multiple stories over my life about chimpanzees ripping humans faces.
Speaker 1: All it does happen and to me another thing, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that indicates that they have like strongly
Speaker 1: held opinions. Yeah. Yeah. Chimpanzees are not the chilliest of
Speaker 1: the great apes. They are. They're strung pretty, they're wound
Speaker 1: pretty tight, like they're they're high strung, high maintenance. Uh,
Speaker 1: if you want a chiller ape, bonobos are much chiller.
Speaker 1: They they're much cooler. I mean, they have much chiller
Speaker 1: culture of their own. Chimpanzee is a little more um,
Speaker 1: you know, a little more face rippy. I'm going to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: more face. But also the bonobos are like I try
Speaker 1: to be sex pause sat but they're like a little
Speaker 1: more free than I feel like I would be comfortable with.
Speaker 1: Like I don't need to see people masturbating and doing
Speaker 1: it constantly. They're very sixties seventies sexual revolution. They are.
Speaker 1: It is a constant swinger party. You go visit the bonobos,
Speaker 1: they've got a glass bowl with all the keys in it,
Speaker 1: rolled up leaves in it, and they're like, hey, leave
Speaker 1: your rolled up leaves in the glass bowl because you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: there needs to be chimps and bonobos cannot be the
Speaker 1: representatives because they've both got issues, major issues. Yeah, somewhere
Speaker 1: between the bonobos and the chimps. Maybe that's what we
Speaker 1: are though, Oh makes you think that probably makes doesn't
Speaker 1: make any sense evolutionarily. But you know, hey, it sounds good.
Speaker 1: It sounds you know, yeah, it sounds sounds cool. Truthy
Speaker 1: ish uh. Well, before we go, we have to play
Speaker 1: a little game and it is called Guests Who Squawking
Speaker 1: the Mystery Animal Sound Game. Every week I play a
Speaker 1: mystery animal sound in you the listener, and you the guests,
Speaker 1: try to guess his squawking. And this can be any
Speaker 1: animal in the entire world, so birds, uh, insects, mammals,
Speaker 1: cetaceans which are whales, fish? Did I mention birds? It
Speaker 1: can be anything. So with an open mind and open
Speaker 1: ear holes, I will play a sound and you will
Speaker 1: try to guess who is making that sound. So last
Speaker 1: week's Mystery animals sound hint was if you hear this
Speaker 1: coming from the walls you are in a heap of trouble.
Speaker 1: Is the the hint that you gave earlier related to
Speaker 1: this song. So the hint for this sound is, if
Speaker 1: you hear this coming from the walls, you're in a
Speaker 1: heap of trouble. Is it a termite? You are correct? Oh,
Speaker 1: that's exciting. Yes, yes, this is the sound of an
Speaker 1: agitated termite. And you do not want to hear this
Speaker 1: coming from your walls. You don't. Congratulations to Ari L,
Speaker 1: Natalie In and Joey P who correctly guessed termites, and
Speaker 1: I have to issue ama culpa, an apology and oopsy whoopsie.
Speaker 1: Last week, I don't think actually announced the winners to
Speaker 1: the guests who squawking game and you guys who guessed
Speaker 1: the hercules beetle that was my bad, That was my goofer.
Speaker 1: So the winners of that issue that that round of
Speaker 1: guests who squawk was Remy H and Joey P. Good
Speaker 1: job you guys. Sorry I forgotten to do that last time.
Speaker 1: Please forgive me. Speaking of table manners, these little guys
Speaker 1: would eat your whole table and the rest of your home.
Speaker 1: These are termites. If you hear this, it's a very
Speaker 1: bad sign because you may have a termite infestation. So
Speaker 1: before we hate on termites for destroying your home, let's
Speaker 1: learn a little bit about them and appreciate them. So
Speaker 1: termites are you social? So they live in a colony
Speaker 1: structure similar to bees or ants, where you have a
Speaker 1: reproductive cast system. So the queen reproduces uh, and the
Speaker 1: other termites worked together for the colony. So termites will
Speaker 1: communicate with the colony using pheromones or sometimes using headbanging,
Speaker 1: just like any good metal fan. So the soldier term mites,
Speaker 1: when they detect a breach in the tunnel of the colony,
Speaker 1: will start banging their heads against the walls, which causes
Speaker 1: that clicking sound and alerts workers to come repair the breach.
Speaker 1: So why do termites eat your house? Uh? So basically,
Speaker 1: termites originally would eat decaying wood in forests. Uh. And
Speaker 1: so they are actually really good for the forest because
Speaker 1: they help with the process of decay. They're able to
Speaker 1: digest wood with the help of gut microbes. So baby
Speaker 1: termites actually are not born being able to eat wood.
Speaker 1: They have to be fed regurgitive, which is you know,
Speaker 1: fancy word for throw up, which contains this gut microbiome.
Speaker 1: And so otherwise they would not be able to feed
Speaker 1: on the very tough to digest wood cellulose. So originally
Speaker 1: they didn't really want to eat your home. Hey, Like,
Speaker 1: they don't know the difference between a decaying tree in
Speaker 1: a forest and your bunch of dead trees turned made
Speaker 1: into a big old hollow cube. So they're gonna eat
Speaker 1: it if they have the opportunity to do so. I
Speaker 1: love that context. I had no idea that, I mean,
Speaker 1: this is like such a humanoid like point of view,
Speaker 1: but I was like, they're in the woods too. I
Speaker 1: think they only bothered us. They yes, they like as
Speaker 1: soon as we started building wooden houses, that's when they
Speaker 1: popped on the scene. Now, yeah, yeah, they Actually they
Speaker 1: are very good for the forest environment because they break
Speaker 1: down that dead plant material and uh they can they
Speaker 1: convert what is inedible for a lot of animals into
Speaker 1: actual edible things, like I just mentioned those chimpanzees. They
Speaker 1: love to eat termites because they are delicious little protein
Speaker 1: filled snacks. So they are great for great for their
Speaker 1: little biomas. Not so good if they get into your house.
Speaker 1: And you know, I am, of course a big advocate
Speaker 1: of not being annoyed by animals. Living near your home
Speaker 1: or but in this case, uh, they are something to
Speaker 1: be concerned with because the structural integrity of your house
Speaker 1: is pretty important for you to be able to live
Speaker 1: in there without it all falling down on top of you. So, uh,
Speaker 1: this is a situation that is not tenable to coexist
Speaker 1: peacefully with termites in your walls. Unfortunately, another sign of
Speaker 1: termites is actually frast So frost are these little wood
Speaker 1: pellets you might see in a pile, and these are
Speaker 1: actually little wood filled termite turds. So if you see
Speaker 1: what looks like a pile of tiny wood pellets that
Speaker 1: keep reappearing even after you sweep it, that is another sign.
Speaker 1: So yeah, if you hear that noise or you uh
Speaker 1: see those little piles of frasts, you should probably call
Speaker 1: pest control because you got a situation that would be
Speaker 1: so upsetting to find that. I got a lot like
Speaker 1: our apartment has these beautiful wood beams, and I'm always
Speaker 1: just squinting at them looking for any signs of trouble.
Speaker 1: You know, you can't do that. You can't spend your
Speaker 1: time in Italy squinting at the ceiling. You gotta do
Speaker 1: something else, all right. Well, uh, that's your opinion, but
Speaker 1: you uh this week's mystery animal sound The hint is
Speaker 1: is this an okay, get go or maybe a blank
Speaker 1: blank m I love the little last one, like air
Speaker 1: being let out of a sad balloon. So you got
Speaker 1: any guesses, Katherine? Unfortunately I feel like I don't know
Speaker 1: enough about jungle animals to to even guess like some
Speaker 1: sort of frog. Well, I mean, look, any guests I
Speaker 1: think is a good one, because if I tried to
Speaker 1: play this game, I don't think I would do as
Speaker 1: well as my listeners do. To be honest with you, yeah,
Speaker 1: but unfortunately, I'm not going to tell you whether you're
Speaker 1: right or wrong, because you will have to wait all
Speaker 1: the way until next Wednesday for the answer. And I
Speaker 1: certainly won't just tell you after we turn off a recording.
Speaker 1: I would never do that. I am a fair and
Speaker 1: just podcast host. Uh. So yes, your maybe you out
Speaker 1: there think you know who is squawking? You can send
Speaker 1: me an email at Creature feature pot at gmail dot com. Uh. Catherine,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today on this
Speaker 1: culinary journey from vomiting flamingos to goats and trees. Where
Speaker 1: can the people find you? Oh, let's see. Um, well,
Speaker 1: my podcast is called smart Mouth and that's two words
Speaker 1: smart in mouth um. And I'm on all the social
Speaker 1: media like Instagram at smart Mouth Podcast. Um. I have
Speaker 1: a newsletter smart Mouth dot sub stack dot com, and
Speaker 1: then on Twitter just at Katherine Spires And you can
Speaker 1: find the podcast on the internet at Creature feature Pot
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Creature feet Pot on Twitter. That's feet
Speaker 1: That is very different. Ah. Yeah, and hey, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for listening. I really appreciate each never want
Speaker 1: to you listen nerves out there. It feels it's such
Speaker 1: a privilege to be here all nestled inside your ears. Uh.
Speaker 1: And hey, but if you're enjoying the show and you
Speaker 1: have the time, uh and the inclination, if you left
Speaker 1: a review for me or rating, I would greatly appreciate that.
Speaker 1: It means so much to me, both in terms of
Speaker 1: just making me feel good. I read the reviews to
Speaker 1: make me happy. Uh, it also feeds the algorithm, which
Speaker 1: I must always obey. So yeah, if you are enjoying
Speaker 1: the show and you want to help out, if you'll
Speaker 1: leave a rating kind of review that is just so good,
Speaker 1: so excellent. Hey, thanks to the space classics where there's
Speaker 1: super awesome song excel Alumina Preach Your features a production
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts like the one
Speaker 1: you just heard, visit the I heart Radio app Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or Hey guess what? Where have you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows? Look? Hey, honestly, between you and me, I
Speaker 1: don't care where you listen to your podcast US. It
Speaker 1: could be anything, anyway, any shape, any for him. See
Speaker 1: you next Wednesday, m