WEBVTT - Microdosing Mommies w/ Michael Pollan 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:03.920 Welcome to Go, ask Alli, a production of Shonda Land 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:08.280 Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. When I have 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.040 been with friends and that happened and I paid my pants, 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.720 I did lose the room, they did leave. I saw 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.520 her light up and I was like, I'm just going 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.400 to work. But we are here until one of our 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:21.840 last reps. I was just the one that was meant 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:23.520 to take care of mamma. It's for me to remember 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.560 every single day is that I always have a choice. 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:31.480 Everyone always has a choice. Whenever somebody says no, you can't, 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.559 or there's no rules for you, or you have to 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.520 look like this, I go. I'll show you. I'll show you. 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.160 Welcome to Go, ask Alli. I'm Alli Wentworth and this 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.720 is season three. I'm so excited. Had a great hiatus. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.800 Thank you for supporting my book, Allie's Well That Ends Well. 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:56.720 Had a great summer with that, did a lot of 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:00.920 lecture series, clammed a lot of clam ms, and hung 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:02.560 out with my two daughters. You know, I'm about to 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:06.240 become a true empty nesters. So I am holding onto 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:10.720 my daughters by their ankles, kicking and screaming um and 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.320 so happy to be back, you know, George, My husband 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:15.880 always jokes and says that go ask Galleys like my 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.160 master class, because I get to invite all these experts 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.520 and artists and thinkers and creators, and I get to 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.279 ask them all kinds of questions and learn more about 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:27.360 the things I want to know more about. And I 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.480 know you do too, And so first up this season, 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.280 you know I've been hearing more and more about psychedelics. 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.760 Stephen Wright once said, I used to have an open mind, 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.880 but my brains kept falling out, which is very aproposed 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:43.120 to today's episode. So I have a few friends that 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:47.640 have been micro dosing, and they swear by it. It's 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:53.040 basically taking very small doses of some popular psychedelic lucinogens. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.120 So I've been a little fascinated by it because I 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.920 know that it helps with PTSD and trauma. But would 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:06.480 a little nibble here and there help just the everyday stress? 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:09.160 I mean, we're living in a world right now where 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:14.639 everything is terrifying. There's so much anxiety. Maybe maybe a 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.960 little micro dosing might help it. And it occurred to 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:25.320 me that maybe micro doosing might make us better mothers, wives, friends, humans, 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.959 And there's no better guests than Michael Pollen to answer 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.720 these questions. So. Michael Pollen is a writer, teacher, and activist. 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.720 His most recent book, This Is Your Mind on Plants, 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.600 is a follow up to his highly acclaimed How to 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.560 Change Your Mind With The New Science of Psychedelics, teaches 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:49.200 us about consciousness, dying, addiction, depression, and transcendence. He's the 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.600 author of seven previous books, all of which were New 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.200 York Times bestsellers. The Omnivores Dilemma was named one of 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.680 the ten Best books of two thousand and seven both 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.760 by The New York Times and The Washington Post. Several 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.880 of his books have been adapted for television, including How 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.519 to Change Your Mind now streaming on Netflix, which you 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.040 should definitely watch. Pollen teaches writing at Harvard and at 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.560 You See Berkeley's Graduate School of Journalism. In two thousand ten, 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.200 Time magazine named Pollen one of the one hundred most 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:21.480 Influential people in the World. And stay with us afterwards 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:23.960 for a short conversation with a mom about her personal 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:31.040 experience micro dosing. Hello, Michael Pollen, Hello, good to be here. Ali. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.280 So I know you've been doing this grand book tour 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:36.760 and I want to talk to you about something and 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.520 I'm going to make it a little more specific if 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.960 you don't mind, Okay, great. My question to you is 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:50.560 does micro dosing make you a better parent? And the 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.720 reason I ask is because I don't know if it's 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.120 because of you. I don't know if it's happening in 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.480 the medical world, but I have noticed more and more 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.320 I have friends who are a mom or a dad 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.520 who are micro dosing. And when I first heard about it, 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:12.960 of course, my very waspy roots was taken aback and 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.320 I clutched my pearls and I thought, oh my god, 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.920 you're tripping on acid while you're parenting children. This is crazy. 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.640 Since I've read your book, I am a lot more 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.120 educated about it. So first of all, let's just put 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.279 a toe in the pool and let me just ask 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.520 you to explain micro dosing for those who don't know. Sure, so, 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.480 micro dosing is the practice of taking a very small 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.800 sub perceptual in other words, a dose so small you 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:45.839 don't feel any psychedelic effects of LSD or psilocybin. Psilocybin 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.520 is the chemical and magic mushrooms. People take basically a 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.480 tenth of what would be an active dose, and they 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.000 do it on some sort of schedule like one day 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.040 on two days off, one day on two days off. 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:58.720 You can't take it every day because you build up 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.159 tolerance to and it doesn't work anymore. Many people report 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:07.000 beneficial changes to their mood and their outlook and their 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:12.000 productivity and their creativity. Whether these changes are real or 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.159 a placebo effect is still up in the air. I 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.360 haven't seen any research that suggests that micro dosing actually 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.160 does anything, although people report that it does, and that's 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:25.440 in a way the only thing that matters. There's nothing 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:29.760 wrong with the placebo. Placebos are incredibly powerful. And when 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:31.599 you think about it, I mean, even if if I 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.560 gave you a sugar pill and I said this is 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:35.480 going to make you a better parent or a more 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.920 patient parent, let's say it probably would have some effect. 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.200 That's how powerful the placebo is. But if you combine 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:44.560 it and say this is a little bit of LSD, 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.239 that amplifies the placebo effect because there's so much magic 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.440 we attribute to that molecule, so that it may be 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.880 a very powerful placebo effect is going on until we 0:05:55.960 --> 0:06:00.320 really do the kind of controlled double blind studies where 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.039 people don't know what they're getting, uh, they get a 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.840 real placebo where they get the small dose of LSD. 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.240 We won't know that it's doing anything. If what people 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.560 report is true, Yeah, it's conceivable it would make them 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.640 better parents if they're you know, less depressed or anxious. 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:19.359 You know, that should make them better parents. But um, 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.520 it is illegal. I think it's important for people to know, 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.520 even if it's a small dose. Haven't I read recently 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.800 that it's it's sort of the lowest in terms of 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.800 the criminal chain of offenses. Well, it depends where you live. 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:38.080 There are many jurisdictions around the country, including Washington, d C. Oakland, California, 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.360 and Arbor, Denver, Colorado, and a bunch of others, and 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.560 there will be a lot more that have decriminalized psilocybin, 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.320 for example. But decriminalized doesn't make it legal. It's still 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.520 illegal at the federal level. And yes, and all it 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.279 does really it doesn't change the legal status of the drug. 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.760 It basically just tells the law enforcement this should be 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.680 your lowest priority. So it's probably hard to get busted 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.800 in those places for possession, but but certainly sale would 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.800 get you in trouble. But it has opened the door 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.360 I mean here in I live in Berkeley, you know, 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.280 one town over from Oakland, and a friend of mine 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.960 was just at a farmer's market or flea market and 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:23.600 they were selling psilocybin chocolates openly with with labels saying 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.240 what it was. So things are changing. Yeah, it feels 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.160 like it. And by the way, it's five to is 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.800 how much you use when you're micro dosing. Right, what 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.600 would be a full dose of LSD of a psychedelic 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.040 if you wanted to really trip um, it would be 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.520 about a hundred micrograms, So it's very small. Yeah, LSD 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.600 is a very what's kind of incredible about l s 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.240 D is it's such a I mean, micrograms are millions 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.720 of a gram. This is a very tiny amount of 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.520 a substance, and that wouldn't be a big dose, but 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.360 that would be a dose you'd really feel. So I'm 0:07:56.400 --> 0:08:01.840 looking back at history, particularly with with moms, and certainly 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.880 in the fifties and sixties there was valium housewife. You know, 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:12.640 women were medicating for various reasons and helper mother's little helper, 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.040 and so right now, and I could just be because 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.600 of the people I know, but I'm sort of seeing 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:23.760 a trend that micro dosing is actually helping people. And 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:25.920 I certainly look at the world as we all do 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:31.440 right now with everything that's going on politically, climate crisis, everything, 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.480 and I go, well, why are we all micro dosing? 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.000 I mean, it does everything I've read in your book 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.720 and every research I've read. It does boost morale, it 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.600 does give you more energy, it does sort of take 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.720 the edge off anxiety. It's all a plus to me. 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:50.280 Besides the fact that it's illegal. Yeah, I think that's 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.440 the biggest negative about micro dosing is that it is illegal. 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.120 There's not a lot of risk in micro dosing at 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.120 those doses. You know, you're perfectly functional, you can do 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:01.520 what you need. I think the biggest risk is and 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.760 I hear this a lot. People describe micro dozing and 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.720 then talk about feeling different and feeling a psychedelic effect. 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.960 That means they weren't micro dozing, they took too much. 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:17.200 And it's particularly difficult with psilocybin mushrooms because any two 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.960 mushrooms can differ in intensity by a factor of ten. 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.720 So you what was just a kind of a micro dose, 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.040 little nibble of a mushroom, when you did the same 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.040 thing with another mushroom, you Mike go WHOA, I can't drive, 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:36.720 and you're usually managing your medication yourself when you're micro dozing. Correct. Yeah, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.480 people are not guided with micro dosing. I mean, this 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.320 is something you can do on your own. You don't 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.720 really need a guide. There's no experience to talk you through. 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:47.839 It's it's more like a brain vitamin. I think that's 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.360 kind of how people how people treat it. But as 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.640 I say, you know, I think the jury is open 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:57.240 on whether it's actually doing anything at a pharmacological level. Um, 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:58.959 And I think we have to do that research. I 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:03.680 think it's really important search. Yeah. I heard a story 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.040 the other day from a good friend of mine and 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:10.400 she was away on working and her husband was at 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.640 home with their kids, and he called her up and 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.679 he said, UM, is there something you want to tell 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.280 me about this chocolate bar that you have hidden in 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.920 the drawer of your desk. And my friend said, what 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.840 do you mean? And he said, well, I just ate 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:28.200 half of it and I am seeing colors. And she said, well, yes, 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.480 that is a candy bar that has mushrooms in it 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.800 for micro dosing, and you just ate half of it, 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.800 so you are in fact tripping. So she had to 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.080 call her children and put them on speaker and say, 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:44.040 listen to me very carefully. Your father is tripping. I 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.160 need you to make him a big thing of spaghetti 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.600 because he's really hungry and you can't raise your voice 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.559 or do anything that's going to make him feel disoriented 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:57.560 or anxious. And the kids were like, what this is 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.760 not This is not a family where the parents like 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.920 talk about drugs openly. So she said she had to 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.080 beg her children to kind of take care of him, 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:08.719 to manage it. Yeah, to be his guide. I mean, 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.920 you know, if you have these substances around the house, 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.600 somebody may take them, and uh, people should realize these 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.120 are powerful substances and they shouldn't be casual about it. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:21.400 And it's one of the reasons that I emphasized the 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.439 importance of working with a guide if you're going to 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.880 take a substantial dose of a psychedelic and that you 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.440 mitigate a lot of the risks. And but there are risks, 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.760 their psychological risks, and people do end up in the 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.520 emergency room because they have such a horrifying experience or 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.440 or can't get out of it. But a good guide 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.760 can help you get out of it and actually turn 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.599 that bad experience into a positive experience because whatever is 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:49.360 coming up, whatever terrifying things you're seeing or feeling, this 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.280 isn't a product of the molecule. The molecule is just 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.000 a catalyst. This is something that your brain, your mind 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.920 is producing and therefore has some meaning, and with the 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.240 help of a good guide, you can interpret it and 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.960 and actually get something valuable. I noticed the researchers and 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.520 the guides um that I've talked to, you don't use 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.040 the term bad trip. They talk about a challenging trip. 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.760 And that's because it has valuable material. It shouldn't it 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.480 shouldn't just be ignored. Let's take it a step further, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.640 because if you feel you can manage your micro dosing 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.120 as an anxious mom living in a world that seems 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.079 to be on fire, you know, it could be placebo, 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:32.320 it could be the actual mushrooms, but it seems to 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:36.400 be helping people, yes, in a larger scale. So if 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.000 we're starting to talk about m D m A and 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.280 I have I have friends that have done that as well, 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:47.319 where they're guided through a trip which is significantly more 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:52.160 of the LSD, and it has been life changing for 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:56.120 people that have experienced trauma. I watched the Netflix series 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.079 you did with isolet Waldman, and she talked about being, 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.360 you know, just chronically depressed and how much it helped her. 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.319 So for me, I think, well, why isn't this being 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.600 researched even more? I mean, we have a huge problem 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.679 with depression, huge mental health crisis, especially with this younger 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.600 generation with anxiety. So what why isn't this on the 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:22.560 front burner of medical research. Well, it's getting there. Um, 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.800 there is a lot of research going on right now. 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.360 Part of the reason that there isn't more is, first 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.720 of all, it was impossible to do the research until 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.800 about twenty years ago. The government made it very difficult. 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.800 There was such a backlash against psychedelics from the sixties. 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:42.440 The NIH National Institute of Health, which funds most medical research, 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.040 was allergic to psychedelics for many years. They felt it 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.960 was too controversial. But just in the last year they've 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.600 given their first two grants for psychedelic research to a 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.600 to a really promising research program at Yale that's looking 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.160 at obsessive compulsive disorder. Uh. And if you saw the 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.880 Netflix series, one of the patients in that trial, Ben 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.959 in the psilocybin episode, has an amazing story of transformation 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.040 of Actually, he's like thirty years old, he's just had 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.000 his first kid. He has been hobbled by o c 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.880 D since he was ten, and it was like this 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.960 this ball and chain he was dragging around, and in 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.960 the course of one afternoon, he just he dropped the chain. 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.560 He just didn't need it anymore, and his symptoms one 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.920 by one disappeared. It was quite remarkable, incredible. So the 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.120 government is funding that research and also a program in 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.040 smoking cessation at Johns Hopkins. They've given a grant for that. 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.000 By the way, is Harvard doing any research? I know 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.520 Timothy Leary was there for a long time. Yes, they 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.680 have reignited. It's the last place I thought would do it. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.880 Mass General, which is part of Harvard, has launched a 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:55.360 psychedelic research center and they're working specifically on rumination as 0:14:55.400 --> 0:15:00.760 the common denominator of a lot of these rigid thinking disorders. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.240 I think it's a really interesting study. So the stigma 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.520 is lifting. The research is happening right now. I could 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.840 point to a dozen trials underway for everything from addiction 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.800 for alcoholism, cocaine and cigarettes, to o c D to 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:21.200 depression rumination. But right now, the thinking is that it's 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:26.120 most effective on those forms of mental illness or mental 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:31.400 distress that are characterized by brains that are too tightly wound, 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:35.520 too too rigid in their thinking. And that's all at 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.680 one end of the spectrum, and that is depression, anxiety, rumination, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.720 addiction O c D. These are all the products of 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.960 minds stuck in loops that they can't get out of, 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.720 or destructive narratives. You know, I'm unworthy of love, or 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.200 my work is ship, you know whatever. So m D 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.360 m A is a very interesting substance and very useful 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:01.160 in the therapeutic relationship. It deactivate the amygdala, which is 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.800 the fear and anxiety center in your brain, the fight 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:08.400 or flight response, and this allows people to take out 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.120 very painful memories and look at them and talk about 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:17.240 them without the accompanying charge of anxiety or fear and 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.520 for people with PTS, so you're not reliving them while 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.640 you were living them without emotion, and and that allows 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.040 you to process them in a way you can't normally, 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.080 and instead of just being tormented by these memories, you 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:30.920 can like take it out and deal with it and 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.080 talk to a therapist about it. The value of this 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:38.800 research has been demonstrated. I mean a Phase three study, 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.640 which is the last phase before approval, was released last 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.880 year and I think it was two thirds of the 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:50.160 people with PTSD no longer qualified for that diagnosis after 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.920 their treatment, so they were no they no longer had 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.480 PTSD by the normal scale the CAP score and UM. 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.120 So it will be approved for that, but I think 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.760 it will be used for other things as Well's it 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.119 is incredible. I think m D m A is an 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.280 amazing substance from my own experience, I think it's going 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.320 to be great for couples therapy because it allows two 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:15.480 people to UM to talk about the most difficult topics 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:21.240 without getting antagonistic, without getting defensive. Um, it's just kind 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.720 of remarkable the kind of conversation you can have. And UM, 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.040 I'm just scarious, Michael. What would be in a couple 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.760 therapy situation? What would be an example of something that 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:36.280 you could work on in this setting that maybe it 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:40.560 wouldn't be as effective in regular therapy. UM, it needn't 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.080 be trauma. I mean, it just could be the frictions 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.160 of everyday life. It just could be that your partner 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.040 is driving you crazy. You know something about his personality, 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.840 or his habits or his you know, behavior, or the 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:55.960 way he deals with the kids or whatever it is. 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.320 You could have that conversation without it going to def 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.960 conn and like instantly, which often happens in relationships and 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:07.600 people fall into these patterns of defensive response. It disarms 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.760 all that and you can you can talk about these 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.600 things in a very cool and helpful way and and 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.760 also feel the strong bond At the same time. It 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:22.000 has more risks than other psychedelics, physical risks and raises 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.880 your heart rate and things like that. It is an emphetamine, 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.119 but I think it's going to have great value. And 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.560 what do you think about trying micro docing m d 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.320 m A with teenagers because you know, their frontal lobe 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.960 hasn't completely developed and the brain is still growing. Is 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.400 there any research on that? No? Um, It's interesting though, 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.359 MAPS the organization that has done most of the m 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.840 d m A research. It stands for the Multidisciplinary Association 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:54.080 of Psychedelic Studies. Once they get f d A approval 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.720 for m d m A, which they will get probably 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.800 in the next two years, at the outside, they have 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.240 to one more study that the FDA has asked for. 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:07.080 They have been asked to test it on adolescence. That's 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:10.720 kind of FDA requirement because if it has some benefit 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:12.800 for young people, you want to know it. Yet they 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.880 may need a different dose, so they will be studying 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.639 it in adolescence. And I mean there are many adolescents 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:24.040 who suffer trauma um in terms of psilocybin treatment and 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.760 young people. You know, I say in my book How 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:29.720 to Change Your Mind, there's kind of a throwaway line 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.159 that I think psychedelics are wasted on the young, and 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:35.399 that they have particular value as you get older. And 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.960 the reason for that is as you get older, you 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.280 are locked into ways of looking at the world, looking 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.359 at yourself. You you do have these narratives of who 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.560 you are that are kind of limiting, and you're a 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.399 creature of habit increasingly, and habit kind of dules us 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.560 to the world into reality because we see things in 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:58.080 a conventionalized way, even if it's our own personal conventions. 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.640 And psychedelic melt all that and allow you to form 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:04.880 new habits and get out of old habits and get 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.360 a perspective on them. And I think that's all really valuable, 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:10.960 but especially valuable as we get older. One of the 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.480 things that happens on the classic psychedelics on a macro 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:19.800 dose is something called ego dissolution or mystical experience. This 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:25.119 is an experience where your sense of self completely dissolves, 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.520 and when that happens, it can be terrifying or wonderful, 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.720 depending on the context you're in. I mean, if you're 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.040 in a safe place with the guide you trust, it's 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.320 a wonderful experience because when the walls of the ego 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.720 come down, you merge with whatever else is out there, 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.440 and it could be the divine. If you're a religiously 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:47.000 inclined person, it could be nature, it could be For me, 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.639 it was a piece of music that I completely merged with. 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:54.119 It was this remarkable experience of of um, you know, 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:57.320 there was no subject object duality. It wasn't me listening 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.080 to it. It was like I was it. So I 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:03.280 wonder about ego dissolution to someone who hasn't fully formed 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.800 their ego yet, and is that a good time to 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:12.080 experiment with that kind of radical self transcendence. I don't know. Um, 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.000 you know, I know lots of people who had good 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.399 psychedelic experiences in their youth. Young people sometimes they're a 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:20.879 little careless about when and where they take it. You know, 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.439 they don't pay enough attention to set and setting. I 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:28.240 wonder about addiction to not there's no real addictive element 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:33.080 to this. No, there's no addiction risk. Two very interesting 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:35.760 things about classic psychedelics again I'm not talking about m 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:39.359 D M a UM, is that they're not habit forming. 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:43.359 The classic experiment to prove addictiveness where you have a 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:45.320 rat in a cage and they have two levers, and 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.439 one lever administers heroin or or cocaine to their bloodstream, 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.479 and the other lever, you know, sugar water. Uh, and 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.199 the rats will pick the lever with the drug over 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.919 and over again until they're addicted or dead. It's just irresistible. 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.120 If you put LSD in that set up, they'll try 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.320 it once and then never again. There. They don't like 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.040 to trip. I mean, it's too weird. It's like, you know, 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:10.840 it's it doesn't it doesn't have it doesn't give the 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:12.960 kind of reward and animal wants. I mean, we don't 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:16.360 know how animals trip, obviously, but they do and they 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:19.480 don't like it. UM. So it's not habit forming by 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.920 any kind of standard, And and that intuitively sounds right 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:27.159 after a big psychedelic experience which is all consuming for 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:30.000 a day, your first thought is not when can I 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:32.560 do this again? It's like, do I ever have to 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:36.080 do this again? Because it's it's really hard work. It's 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.119 really hard work. Even if there are moments of incredible euphoria, 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:42.080 you feel like you've run a marathon or something. Afterwards, 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:47.359 there's a lot more to come after this short break 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.919 and we're back. Just walk me through it for my 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.399 own curiosity. If I were if I met with a 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.359 guide I felt safe with, I would probably go to 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.199 their place. Usually sometimes they'll come to your place. It's 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:14.280 I think it's better to go to a place where, 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:17.000 like your neighbors are not gonna, you know, knock on 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.439