WEBVTT - Andrew Green - Part 1 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:04.519 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.400 In this episode, I am joined by up and coming 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:11.000 golf course architect Andrew Green. In part one of our 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.560 two part podcasts, we discuss how Andrew got into golf, 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.400 his pet Peeves, his recent trip to Scotland, and much more. 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:21.960 Look for Part two to drop after the fourth of July. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.400 I hope everyone has a great and safe holiday, and 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.200 without further ado, here's Andrew Green. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.919 The fried egg requires a different technique. What you need 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.080 to do is actually square the face, so they'll dig 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.760 down underneath that bad lie and propel that ball right 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:41.520 out onto the green. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:44.560 Here's the thing. Playing out of a buried lion of 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.080 bunker is completely different than playing out of a night 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.559 clean lion of green side bunker. You need to be 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.600 aggressive on any shop weather it's sitting cleanly for its 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.840 Friday Egg. Well, we've all faced it to the dreaded 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.680 Frida Egg. It's not to be feared though. It's actually 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:08.319 a pretty be shot to hit. What do you do 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:10.199 in your free time? 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.759 So, and it's sometimes it's books about golf. A lot 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:20.440 of times it's historical stuff, biographies, reading a great book 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:21.800 about the Navy, seals. 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.640 Right now, you and Tiger. 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.560 Yeah, his training is a little more intense than mine. 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:31.480 Yeah, you're not doing the two to days. 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:36.119 No, no, not much time for that. Probably benefit from it. 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.840 Yeah, I think I would too. With travel, you know, 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.640 how many how many flights did you do you last year? 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:47.680 One hundred and thirty three. It's a lot of legs. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.680 When you start recognizing flight attendance, you know you're probably 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:52.200 traveling a little too much. 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:59.280 What h what's the uh? What's your pro tip for traveling? 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:01.720 You know, do you have any tricks of the trade? 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.840 Uh? TSA pre check and if you know you have 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:09.000 anything pseudo on the edge, get it out of your bag, 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:10.520 you know, don't get caught. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.360 Yeah. TSA pre check is like a complete game changer. 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.200 I think when I travel with my drone and my 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.840 mixing board and mics, people think I have like a bomb. 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.840 Yeah. So I'm doing a project in Jamaica. Sometimes I'd 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.400 have to carry like machine parts or something to help expedite. 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.600 And I know one time it was just a simple 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.080 like a hydraulic arm, and they thought, based on the 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.160 X ray, it looked like a some kind of weapon 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:39.840 and it was like the culture security, the minute it 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.320 went through the X ray machine. That wasn't fun. 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.520 So where'd you grow up? 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.520 So I grew up kind of a little north of Roanock, Virginia, 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:58.600 kind of in the mountains, you know, a little bit 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.639 out in the sticks, not in a city by any means, 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:08.080 and actually learned the game from my next door neighbor. 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.640 For the most part, my parents had golf clubs. They 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.360 didn't really play. My brother played a little bit, but 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.480 my next door neighbor, who was a dentist, played all 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.800 the time, and he would hit like one hundred and 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.000 twenty five one hundred and thirty yard shots in our backyards. 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.360 So in the evening I go out with him and 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.880 hit shots, and then he took me to play my 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.120 first full round of golf. I played with him. It 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:40.880 was pretty cool, me and me, semi private club, real simple. 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.760 You know, One thing about I was thinking about it that, 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.600 you know, if I grew up at a real high 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.680 level club, let's say, a top one hundred, and I 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.200 went to a place like where I grew up playing, 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.840 I don't think my appreciation for that kind of golf 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:01.160 would be there. But starting like at that lower level 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:04.920 and then seeing the best it's like you still have 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.000 an appreciation for the game I fell in love with. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.400 Was very simple. You know, the greens are pretty rounded, 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.920 kind of pushed up, you know, architecturally, not lighting the 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:20.040 world on fire. But I just loved playing there, and 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.200 you know, I'd have a lot of wedges probably in 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.839 my hand, but it was just so much fun. 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:32.440 And what was the first golf course that you played 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.039 that you realized like there was like a different type 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.880 of golf, Like there was like a you know that 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.800 there's more to golf than what the golf course he 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:42.479 grew up on. 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:47.279 So probably either between the Cascades, which was about forty 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.640 minutes north of where I grew up at the Homestead, 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:57.160 really cool mountain golf course Flynn, and then Harbortown played that. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.200 We used to go to hilton Head before it was 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:04.040 hilton Head way back when, and playing Harbortown is like 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:08.120 playing in a bowling alley, you know, but you could 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:12.159 see there was more to it, right than just you know, 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.279 a target, a couple bunkers. You know, there was thought 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:16.440 put into it. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:22.160 Harbortown, Tom Doak says, is one of his most influential courses. 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.400 Bill cor says the same, and it's fascinating. A lot 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.280 of people think it's kind of overrated. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.800 Now, yeah, you know, it definitely puts a premium on 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.960 shots right. And I haven't been back since some of 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:39.880 the latest work. I played it in the mid nineties. 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:44.680 I guess trees grow. Yeah, little trees become big trees. 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.920 That's my deal. You know, if you don't manage them, 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:49.000 they get out of hand. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.320 The course I grew up a meuni. I grew up 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.720 playing at it, like all these trees were tiny when 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:57.400 I was a kid, And now when I go back, 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.560 I'm like, whoa, I can't just like blast it over 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:00.600 these trees anymore. 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:02.720 So that was the course I grew up playing. I 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.240 went back. I did an interview for Buffalo Golfer that 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:10.039 written thing, and they saw it and they'd gotten a 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.400 new owner, and they said, you know, would you come 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.200 take a look, And I was like, absolutely, I'd love 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.080 to go see it. I was like, my only thing 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.200 I want to do is play it. Like I don't 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.039 need a fee to come, I just I just want 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.359 to go play. So I went out and played. And 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.880 you know, there are all these white pines that in 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:29.480 the you know, late eighties nineties were obtrusive, but now 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:34.240 they were just like massive. It was mind boggling. And 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.280 that was like my number one thing to them was, listen, 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.440 we got to work on some of these trees because 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.920 there's just so many of them and they're just snuffing 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.799 the views of the mountains, the lines of play. Yeah, 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.479 it's uh are they taking them out? I haven't, I 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.120 haven't been back. I don't know how much. I know 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.800 it's on the list. I told them they could probably 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:55.080 get a pretty good deal on lumber. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.880 I feel like in in more rural areas tree removal, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.960 you could almost just take them down and put them outside, 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.320 Like I know, in cities that it's so expensive to 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.000 get them out, you know, right and like you know, 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.520 don't necessarily like some places you can sell the lumber 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.040 or some places, but some places you could just put 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:15.840 it out on the corner of the property. 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.440 And getting picked up right for sure. Well then you 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:22.600 get you know, between all different ordinances and depending where 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.000 the clubs is, it makes a big difference in what 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:29.520 you can do. But some clubs have made pretty good 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.360 money taking trees out and selling them. 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.200 That be nice if they all clubs could make money 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:38.480 taking them out. I think more people. 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:39.960 It would help balance things, wouldn't it. 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.240 Yeah, how did you get into you know, like, how 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.960 when'd you decide that you wanted to do golf architecture 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.080 and golf construction for a living. 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.360 I was probably a junior in high school and I 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:58.880 was thinking about political science, chemical engineering, and you know, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.040 I was like a lot of kids sitting in high 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.080 school class drawing golf courses, you know, on the corners 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:08.680 of your paper, and not the best golfer in the world, 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.800 but just a real appreciation for the challenge of it 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:18.800 and the problems that golf present. And I went to 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.960 talk to some folks at Virginia Tech, and I knew 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:27.400 the turf grass agronomy professor pretty well. I talked to him. 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:32.600 I went to talk to the landscape architecture department, and they, 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.000 probably to their credit, looking back on it, we're very 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.200 concerned about a narrow focus. You know, here's a junior, 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.360 senior in high school. He wants to come study golf architecture. 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:48.480 When you look across the spectrum, you know how many 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:53.560 people make a living doing that, right, So you know, 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:55.360 how are you going to allow a kid to put 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.320 all his eggs in one basket and say, you know, 0:08:57.440 --> 0:08:59.760 I'm going to be a golf architect and here I go. 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:05.200 So they actually probably discouraged me a little bit. But 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.120 I'm the kind of person that, you know, somebody tells 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:14.200 me no, it only makes me try harder. So, you know, 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.199 that's what I decided I wanted to do, and I 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.720 went to Virginia Tech. Landscape Architecture was a five year program, 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:22.760 and I decided in five years I was going to 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:29.520 get two degrees. And it was a little crazy, you know, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:34.240 eighteen hours or more a semester for five years. Last 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.319 two years, I did, you know, over twenty credits a 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:42.560 semester to get done, and really fortunate. My last summer 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:48.319 before I graduated, i'd met Chip McDonald in ninety seven 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.800 at the US Open at Congressional. He'd done the renovation 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:57.719 work and he hired me the summer before I graduated 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:03.000 and worked for him, and then before I was done 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.280 that summer, he pretty much offered me a position full time. 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.680 So I worked my last year on breaks and stuff 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.320 for him, and then once I graduated, I started. Within 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.720 a week. I was in the dirt, you know, building, 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:22.480 designing stuff. It just almost seems like it was destined 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:22.720 to be. 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.720 I mean, two degrees in five years. I struggle to 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.000 get one done. I wasn't the best student. 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:38.040 Yeah, you know it's I I like to win. You know, 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.240 I'm not an uber competitive athletic person, but I still 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:42.920 like to win. 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.840 You know. I think like when you look at like 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.640 becoming a professional golfer, like a PGA tour player, like 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:51.559 there aren't a lot of spots, and there's a lot 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.080 of people trying to do it. And with golf course 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.040 architecture especially now, there's even less spots. There's a lot 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.439 of people trying to do it. I mean, you have 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.920 to be competitive. Like, there's no way for you not 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:04.000 to be competitive, and. 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.840 If you don't have a drive, you're not making it. 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.720 I think it's really with a lot of things in life. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.480 I don't think there's many professions where if you want 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.319 to be really good and yeah, especially architecture, really, I 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:21.880 don't think you can be mediocre and really be really good, 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.520 you know, and get the kind of where you want 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:29.240 to be without being super competitive. So you work for 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:34.560 McDonald and sons for a number of years, and you 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.720 started got out on your own and started your own firm. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.520 You know, unlike it's kind of a non traditional path. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:44.960 Do you think it helped. 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:49.800 You, Oh, definitely. I just there's no more stress in 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.240 life than designing something and having to build it yourself 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.320 and having no finger to point right. So you can't 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.960 blame the contractor, you can't blame the architect, you can't 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.760 blame anybody but yourself. So it's got to be right. 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:10.680 And I think Chip, to his credit, he you know, 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.360 had a background in maintenance and as a longtime superintendent, 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:19.600 he put a lot of pressure on me to excel 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.280 and make sure things worked and make sure every line 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:30.080 that I drew had purpose. And I think that it 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:35.560 was really important that there wasn't someone to fall back 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:40.199 on or someone looking over my shoulder constantly. I feel 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.760 like I make better decisions, I see things, I can 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:48.880 react to things better because of that pressure and understanding 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:53.240 that as I went and then you can't be any 0:12:53.280 --> 0:13:00.440 more invested than as you work in that fashion. And 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.040 I really liked the idea that I I didn't learn 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:10.320 a system. You know, there wasn't a recipe. It was 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.560 you know, get on the golf course, find out what 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:19.200 the golf course needs, listen to the client, and respond 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.960 and then I really liked the idea that every course 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:29.040 is different and they all shouldn't look the same. And 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.679 because you know, I wasn't working under an umbrella of 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.000 a bigger name, I had that freedom. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.760 I imagine you get to work with a ton of 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:46.160 different architects too, and you got to pick up things 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.400 that you liked and also things you didn't like. Is 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.080 there anything you know that you learn from you know, 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:56.480 specific you know situations, like specific architects that you like 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.480 really picked up and embrace, Like is there something that 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.720 some an architect that you work for that you've picked 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.360 up and are like, this guy does this really well? 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:14.800 Yeah? I think so. I think watching the hardest thing 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.760 to do in golf, period, whether you're a superintendent, a 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.480 golf professional, general manager, wherever you are in the game 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.800 and in the industry, learning the political spectrum and learning 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.320 the dynamics and how each club is different, and even 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:36.000 even from a daily fee perspective, and so watching other 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:41.760 architects interact with committees and some we're a lot better 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:47.600 at bending minds. I guess to see it their way. 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.600 Some people it was my way or the highway, and 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:57.480 if you don't like it, go some guys were more thoughtful, 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.640 and seeing that spectrum kind of helped allow me to 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:04.840 kind of figure out the way I wanted to proceed. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.280 And I think there's a balance. And look, I think 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.720 one of the cool things about what I do is 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.960 that I'm constantly learning, you know, whether it's history stuff 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:18.240 even in the dirt, but the political thing. You know, 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.960 you're you're always learning. Okay, who do I need to 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.960 convince to see it my way? How do I teach 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.520 people what's good architecture and what isn't? You know? We 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:36.320 talked about that a little bit yesterday, and so I 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.040 think that was probably the biggest thing I picked up. 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.720 I was very cautious when I worked with other architects, 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:43.680 and I didn't work with a ton of them. I 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:45.840 saw a lot of projects being done, but as far 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.320 as hand in hand working with other guys, I didn't 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.680 spend a lot of time in the field with them. 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:58.040 But you know, you see, you see rhythms, you see 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:08.200 tendencies of those things with guys. But it you know, 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.040 some of the big work we did with McDonald, some 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:20.960 of the you know, the Bethpage Black even Congressional Oakmont 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:27.080 Marian the first time you just it's complicated, very complicated. 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.560 People want, you know, want it to be simple, but 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.600 living this life, it's there's so many different things that 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:39.240 are happening, and I guess maybe learning from some of 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.160 those other guys, maybe the best way is just to 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:46.640 plow through and and be, you know, the the dominant 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.480 personality and just kind of shove it down the road. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.640 But sometimes that's not a great way to live either. 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:56.120 You know, there's a balance. 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.320 I imagine working with committees, it's it's got to be so 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:05.760 tough because everybody is, like everybody processes information differently. Like 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.000 some people are like visual learners. Some people are like 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.520 you know, they need everything explained to them verbally. Some 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.640 people like reading and like some people like you can't 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:17.679 explain something until you get out in the field. 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:19.360 So do you when. 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:23.080 You're you know, kind of pushing new ideas? How how 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.200 do you present all all of it? Do you try 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:27.760 and do a combination of all. 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:34.000 The It's it's a struggle, I really. What I learned, 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.440 I guess at some point was that you can stand 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.600 up and tell anybody you have a great idea, but 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.680 if they fire question back at you, and your only 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:45.920 response is you know what do you do for a living, 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.439 or you know you don't know what you're talking about. 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:51.679 That's not a great way to try to get your 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.760 point across. You're much better served to say, well, this 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.800 is what I was thinking, this is why I think 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.680 it's important, you know, talk get through, don't talk down 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:09.199 tons of mileage out of that. And then you know, 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.400 if you want to see if you want to see 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:18.080 something amazing, go to a club and talk about a 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:23.840 subject to each administrator, so general manager, golf pro, superintendent, 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.000 I mean even assistant superintendent, assistant golf pro, you know, 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.040 clubhouse manager, and then go talk to the club president, 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.400 you know, members of the board, golfers you want to 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.280 find out. I mean, I've worked with clubs before and 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.800 I've heard, you know, twelve different perspectives on something very simple, 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.879 just from all those different people, and it's kind of 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.159 mind blowing. It's like, you know, you're all on the 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:52.159 same team, but the perspectives are also different. And so 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:54.800 you know, that's where I really find that if you 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.560 have good ideas, you explain them, well, you're going to 0:18:58.560 --> 0:18:59.040 get ahead. 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.840 Yeah, And if you can when you're just talking to 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.960 those different individuals, if you can curtail. 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:08.000 Your messaging just a little bit. 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.760 Yeah, so that because you can understand what they want 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.720 specifically and kind of tweak it so that they understand exactly. 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.240 I mean, it's crazy how many people you have to 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.560 get on board exactly because the vocal minority in clubs 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:24.920 is just toxic. 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:26.879 So I used to say I like to have the 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.919 squeaky wheel on a committee because I always like to 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.800 know where that person stood. And I still like that 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.680 to a certain extent. But I also have found certainly 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:37.959 that there's some people no matter what you say, what 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.359 you do, what you tell them, you know you're not 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.040 going to convince them. But I tell you one of 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:47.480 the things that's most satisfying is working or hearing from 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.720 those kinds of people and then doing the project and 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:53.560 then coming back and say, listen, I was wrong or wow, 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.120 or you know, that's pretty good. 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:03.520 So you're you're forty, and when you look at the 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:08.159 landscape of golf architects, people like think Gil Hans is 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:12.320 like a young guy. He's in his fifties. It's why 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:17.040 is the takes so long in architecture to get established, 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.159 and because I feel like you're you're just becoming like 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.840 established house the whole name, right, and you know it 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:25.000 just well. 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:26.679 I mean, the whole reason I went out on my 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:30.480 own really was that after two thousand and eight, most 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.160 guys in their thirties were kind of washed out or 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.439 you know, there wasn't a ton of work, and some 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:38.760 of those guys were making a good amount of money 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:42.760 with bigger names, and they you couldn't sustain it. And 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.280 it's so hard to break out of the shadow, you 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:47.960 know sometimes when you're working with a big, big name guy. 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:55.360 And I just saw that there was this great opportunity 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.760 that there was a wake behind the really big name 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.240 guys from the you know, the boom of the nineties 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.240 and two thousands, and you had this really cool group 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.200 of people that are doing amazing work now, like Gil 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:12.000 and Doak and those guys. But that all of a sudden, 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.959 there's kind of a gap. So I needed to get 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.640 off my butt and try to fill that gap or 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.639 get in line. I think the reason it takes so 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.359 long is no matter how much you learn in a classroom, 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:30.480 no matter how many golf courses you see, no matter 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.000 even how many projects you oversee, Like I said, you're 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.800 constantly learning, and it takes a long time to get 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:42.120 enough experience to handle the dynamics right, because it's more 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.840 than just drawing a pretty picture or having a great idea. 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:52.320 It's selling yourself. It's creating a plan that responds to 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.240 what people are looking for, you know, something people want, 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.359 and then you've got to bid the project, admit, stir it, 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.440 make it happen in the field, you know, and produce, 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.439 manage it. And doing that as a young you know, 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.000 the most frustrating thing for me was right out of school, 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:16.000 ended up managing a couple million dollars new project, and 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:18.520 I was assawed off, you know, twenty something year old 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.600 working with guys that are in their fifties and sixties 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:24.880 that had moved dirt their entire life and trying to 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:26.760 convince them to do what I wanted them to do 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:27.560 was hard. 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.040 I bet, yeah, thank you. They were probably like, what's 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:34.919 this young schmuck you know telling me how to do 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:37.520 my job I've been doing for thirty years exactly. 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:39.320 So the easiest way to do that is beat them 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.240 to work, So they get there at five or four 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:44.919 point thirty and drink coffee in their truck for an 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:47.600 hour and smoke cigarettes. You know, you better be there 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:50.760 before them, no matter. You know, you're in instant credibility 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:55.080 by not you know, not being the quote unquote pretty boy. 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:59.640 I guess you know, show up, work, work with them, 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:04.080 so you know it just it takes time. I think 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.639 there are a lot of talented people out there. I 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:11.960 think perseverance was a huge part of my life and 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.720 help me. You know, that idea of no matter what 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.080 gets thrown at you, you know you're constantly trying to 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:25.360 do better. Those things really help in life and in architecture. 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:30.000 What would what would you do differently if you could 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:35.840 go back and do say you could you could do 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:38.520 something differently in college or you could you know, right 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:40.360 out of school, you could do something differently. 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:42.719 Yeah, I think the biggest thing I would do different 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:46.840 is I would appreciate the journey a little more. You know, 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:48.800 you always want to get to the end or you 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.560 always want to get you know, like you know, five 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.199 years attack, you know, I wanted to get done. I 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.600 wanted to go make money, I wanted to go build things. 0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.840 I wanted to go design and and and you know, 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.280 travel the world and do what I wanted to do. 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:06.439 Thinking back on it, and just the other day we 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:08.399 were at a set I think with my wife at 0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:12.080 an alumni thing, and uh, they were talking about medieval 0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:15.399 times and Game of Thrones and stuff, and I was 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:18.800 so enthralled of man. I wish I would have appreciated 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:23.639 all the extra things like in school and uh, the 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:26.600 life experiences other than just what I wanted to do, 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.000 because I think the perspective, all those things teach you 0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:32.639 things about what you want to do and it's really 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:39.600 exactly yeah. So that's probably, you know, probably the biggest 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:42.800 thing is just trying to appreciate that more. But I 0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:46.040 used to lose a lot of sleep over like bunker lines, 0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:49.000 like you know, painted a bunker line and then it 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:50.960 would keep me up at night of you know, is 0:24:50.960 --> 0:24:53.400 that the right bunker line? I mean that's crazy, right, 0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:56.959 I mean they're bunkers, right, They're hazards there, you know. 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.000 But I was hanging on probably evolve over oh yeah. 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:04.520 Right, I mean the minute you leave, you know, you know, 0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:08.200 a summer kid you know, hits it with a hand 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:10.760 pro or something and it's completely changed from what you've 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:14.520 done or you know, the you know whatever. So I 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:18.719 think having kids and a wife that that we have 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:22.159 an awesome team at home gave me great perspective on 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.560 that that, you know, the important things are the important things, 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:30.440 some of those kind of smaller detail things of stressing 0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:32.399 over it's not worth stressing over. You still want to, 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:36.680 you know, excel at them, but you know, don't lose 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:39.080 sleep over it. Like I sleep really well. I mean, 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:41.160 maybe it's because I work so much and I don't 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:45.320 sleep much, but I don't stress like it's you know, 0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:52.320 it's okay. So you know, I think that stuff you 0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:53.080 learn over time. 0:25:54.960 --> 0:26:00.040 You're in the design contract school of thought with a 0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:00.879 little bit of build. 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:04.480 Yeah. So look, I did design build for fourteen years, 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:08.360 and I think there's a good value in it. What 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:12.399 I struggled to find was that, you know, I like 0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:15.199 to operate equipment. I'm not the world's greatest shaper. I 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:18.280 can run equipment good enough to get my idea crossed, 0:26:18.720 --> 0:26:21.120 you know. So if a guy's struggling trying to get 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:23.920 my vision, I'll ask kindly, you know, let me get 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:25.600 on there and show you what I'm kind of thinking, 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:27.920 and then you can clean up my mess kind of thing. 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:35.000 So I think there's there's an awesome connection and doing that. 0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:37.760 But what I really struggle with is that if you're 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:41.080 going to be a world class builder, then you need 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:44.159 to be a world world class builder. And if you're 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:45.919 going to be a world class architect, then you need 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:49.879 to be a world class architect. And I wouldn't trade 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:53.439 my time doing design build for anything, but I think 0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:59.040 the creative freedom and the time that I might dedicate 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:01.080 to some other piece of the design build I can 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:06.679 now dedicate to you know, being a better architect is 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:09.120 kind of where I settled in my head. And maybe 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:10.200 I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:14.320 I mean it's a hard thing. I mean it's like 0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:18.920 what we just talked about, like managing, and like I 0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:22.600 even see it, like I ran this by myself for 0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:25.120 so long, and now I have some people that help 0:27:25.240 --> 0:27:28.720 write stuff. I have some people, I have an intern, 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:31.560 and like now like all of a sudden, like I 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:34.800 have to manage also, like and I have to read 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:37.080 other people's stuff and I have to give feedback and 0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:39.920 I can't. Like it's not just all like what I do. 0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:43.560 And I think that it's takes different skills and it 0:27:43.600 --> 0:27:47.520 requires different skills and you can't be all wrapped up 0:27:47.560 --> 0:27:49.840 in one aspect of it exactly. 0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:53.920 Yeah, So you know, I've really got to be good 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:59.520 with my time now and I couldn't imagine running that 0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:02.520 extra opponent myself, at least at this point. 0:28:03.760 --> 0:28:08.399 What's your pet peeve when you go to a golf course, 0:28:08.480 --> 0:28:10.040 like like. 0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:12.440 Like in existing or when I'm working myself. 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:15.800 Say, we just went down the street to golf course, Like, 0:28:15.880 --> 0:28:20.200 what's one thing that that you just immediately catches your eye. 0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:22.560 And oh, you're going to love this, right? The trees, 0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:25.919 you know for sure, I know you're big on that, 0:28:26.040 --> 0:28:33.600 but uh, it's just there's such an emotional attachment two 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:38.640 trees and they're beautiful, but they got to be in 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:43.200 the right spot. And I think, uh, you know, golfers, 0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:46.880 especially in the States obviously, right, you know, they they 0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:48.840 feel like it's we talked a little bit about this. 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:51.040 You know, it's the way it's always been. Well no, 0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:54.840 you know every year the tree is changing. You know, 0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:58.040 it's not the way it's always been. And you see 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:04.000 the trees from rarely the way so exactly right. So 0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:09.680 you know that's that's kind of a pet peeve. It 0:29:09.800 --> 0:29:14.080 drives me nuts when I see properties or places where 0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:21.080 people want to be like somebody else and golf and 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:24.520 I guess I've said this a lot. I guess Golf's 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:29.400 the only game solely, you know, defined by the ground 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:33.400 that is played on. And for me, what makes it 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:36.840 so cool is that every golf course is different. There 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:39.560 are no two golf courses the same, not even close. 0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:44.440 So why why do you want to take all the 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:47.040 things from your neighbor or the last place you went 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:49.400 to travel to play and put it on your property. 0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:53.880 Now you might find concepts or themes that it works, 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:57.600 but why don't Why don't you embrace what makes you special? 0:29:58.120 --> 0:30:01.760 You know? And so sometimes you see people really trying 0:30:01.840 --> 0:30:05.600 to force their golf course to be something that isn't 0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:07.720 and that that's painful. 0:30:08.440 --> 0:30:11.880 I feel like that's especially the case with like following 0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:15.840 the big name club in a city. So if you're 0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:18.520 in Chicago, if the way it used to be, if 0:30:18.560 --> 0:30:20.040 Medina does something. 0:30:19.840 --> 0:30:22.760 You got it right. You got to get in line right. Yeah. 0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:26.240 I did a talk for superintendents a couple of years ago. 0:30:26.280 --> 0:30:28.200 It is like the top ten things you can learn 0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.120 from the top ten, And it wasn't about how to 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:34.440 be like the top ten. It was well, if everybody, 0:30:34.520 --> 0:30:36.640 you know, they watch the Masters and the next week 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:39.800 they're after you to do X, Y and Z or 0:30:40.000 --> 0:30:43.120 whatever tournament, Well, why don't you turn that around on 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:45.120 them and say, well, these are the things we can do, 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:48.880 Like at Augusta, you know what, forty four bunkers or 0:30:48.880 --> 0:30:51.960 something now and twenty two originally, then let's look at 0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:54.240 making our bunkers more efficient. That's a great thing you 0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:59.560 can say from Augusta. You know, clubhouses, some of the clubhouses, 0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:03.760 good clubs are pretty simple. You know, they're not these 0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:08.360 monstrosities that cost a fortune to run and you know, 0:31:09.200 --> 0:31:12.600 have all these moving pieces. They're pretty simple. Use that, 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:13.680 don't don't you know. 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:17.080 It's like the clubhouse I saw in Palm Strings. They're 0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:20.120 spending like eighty million dollars on a clubhouse out there. 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:23.400 It's like, what eighty million dollars on a clubhouse? Like 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:25.560 do you think people are going? Is it a hotel 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:27.000 or people living in there? 0:31:27.200 --> 0:31:29.880 So one of the first courses over the first course 0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:33.280 I helped design and build as King Carter in eastern Virginia, 0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:36.840 you know in I'm kind of middle of nowhere, northern Neck, 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:40.360 really cool spot, like really relaxed. But one of the 0:31:40.760 --> 0:31:45.200 owners was convinced that he could build this little golf 0:31:45.240 --> 0:31:48.680 shop and instead of getting a trailer, he built this 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:50.640 like golf shop that's about the size of this room, 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:54.440 you know, like fifteen by twenty or something. And it 0:31:54.480 --> 0:31:58.080 was like incredibly simple, but it was spectacular. It was 0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:01.880 all he needed to operate. You know. He wasn't wasting money. 0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:04.120 People were there for golf, you know, and he had 0:32:04.160 --> 0:32:06.520 a grill that he cooked hot dogs on and you know, 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:08.960 place to get a beer or whatever, and you know, 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:11.040 what else do you really need if you're really there 0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:11.560 for golf. 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:15.280 It reminds me of the Dunes Club, And uh, it 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:18.000 was like Mike Kaiser's first thing. It is first it's 0:32:18.040 --> 0:32:20.480 like a private club. It's got probably like one hundred 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:24.000 and fifty members, but the pro shop is a closet 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:27.920 like literally just like it's like you walk in and 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:30.240 but then the you know, the clubhouse might be a 0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:32.960 thousand square feet. They have a grill. They grill something 0:32:33.000 --> 0:32:36.880 different every day. Yeah. That that to me is what 0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:40.320 it's about. Like it especially you're you save so much 0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:44.040 money and that and it's like to be honest. In 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:48.360 today's landscape, like with the way the game is, I 0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:50.760 think parents spend a lot more time with their kids 0:32:51.320 --> 0:32:53.680 than ever before. Like then when I was a kid. 0:32:53.680 --> 0:32:55.120 I feel like when I was a kid, I just 0:32:55.160 --> 0:32:57.680 like i'd like go figure out what I was doing 0:32:57.720 --> 0:32:59.920 every day. Now like parents are with him, Like there's 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:03.800 way more travel sports. It's like people don't hang out 0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:07.040 at the club all day anymore. You know that that 0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:12.880 with the you know, next generation of golfers, like our 0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:17.800 generation is something that doesn't happen as much. Like you know, 0:33:18.000 --> 0:33:20.640 more people are living in urban areas, like we a 0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:23.760 my old apartment or my old apartment, we had a pool, 0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:27.600 Like why would my wife ever drive forty minutes to 0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:29.480 go to a pool when we have a pool on 0:33:29.560 --> 0:33:32.320 our rooftop that like overlooks like Michigan. 0:33:32.400 --> 0:33:34.360 You know, Well, that's why I'm struggling with some of 0:33:34.400 --> 0:33:38.960 these fitness centers that clubs are doing. I mean it's great, right, 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:42.640 It's it's a member members can see maybe value by 0:33:42.680 --> 0:33:47.120 having that. But you know, are they better serve or 0:33:47.720 --> 0:33:49.800 you know, are you better serve going to Gold's gym 0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:52.240 or you know, to your club. Yeah, I'm trying to 0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:52.800 figure that out. 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:55.800 The dues end up probably being about the same, Like 0:33:57.240 --> 0:33:59.600 I don't I always think people get in trouble when 0:33:59.600 --> 0:34:00.760 they do something. 0:34:00.360 --> 0:34:02.800 That they aren't, you know, totally agree. 0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:07.080 Like if you you're a golf course architect, you know, 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:09.319 if all of a sudden you decided, well, I'm as 0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:13.560 start an offshoot business being a turf consultant too, Like 0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:15.360 you're not going to do both of them at a 0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:16.400 world class level. 0:34:16.480 --> 0:34:16.680 Yeah. 0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:21.920 So, And like a country club, like you're a country club, 0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:26.759 you do tennis, like golf, well like not necessarily, you're 0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:31.080 not as good as a gym, absolutely unless like you're 0:34:31.120 --> 0:34:36.279 a living facility like a community, you have a standalone gym, right. 0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:40.360 The one of the cool things. You know, took a 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:42.080 trip to Scotland a couple of weeks ago. I was 0:34:42.160 --> 0:34:46.960 going to ask you, and those clubhouses are spectacular. Number one, 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:49.560 those clubs are really good because they're in a community. 0:34:49.719 --> 0:34:53.120 They're like in town, right, so that that really helps. 0:34:53.680 --> 0:35:01.839 But their clubhouses are so they're so versatile, but they're 0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:04.360 so simple. You know. It's like all of them like 0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:06.239 to kind of face the eighteenth green or out onto 0:35:06.239 --> 0:35:08.759 the golf course pretty much. And I don't I don't 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:10.680 know enough. They might have all been designed by the 0:35:10.719 --> 0:35:12.880 same guys, and you know, I just I don't know 0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:15.759 enough about that part of it, but you know, they 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:18.600 had a couple rooms. The best ones seem to have 0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:22.400 maybe three rooms with like dividers or doors that they 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:24.759 could combine to do a big event, and otherwise they 0:35:24.760 --> 0:35:29.719 were three separate spaces but just incredibly efficient. It was 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:31.920 just it was like, you know, why do we need 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:35.080 you know, why do we need the space for a 0:35:35.120 --> 0:35:38.919 three hundred people? You know, I know that weddings are huge. 0:35:38.960 --> 0:35:40.759 I mean, some clubs make a ton of money doing 0:35:40.800 --> 0:35:43.720 that stuff and it helps drive the rest of the train. 0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:46.919 But you know, there's also things like use a tent 0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:49.680 to host big events and then take the tent down. 0:35:50.600 --> 0:35:50.799 You know. 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:54.320 It's I think a lot of clubs end up getting 0:35:54.320 --> 0:35:57.319 in trouble now with like the especially when they get old. 0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:00.280 You get big club clubs as they get old. 0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:03.719 You know, probably the number one challenge in golf right 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:12.680 now is how do clubs sustain themselves knowing that they 0:36:12.719 --> 0:36:19.040 have to reinvest. Yeah, and for single operators, especially once 0:36:19.080 --> 0:36:21.200 you get twenty thirty years old, and there are a 0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:23.799 lot of golf courses that are twenty or thirty years old. 0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:28.040 It's a big number just to get not even to 0:36:28.080 --> 0:36:30.560 make huge improvements, but just to get up to date. 0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:38.680 I worry about all the clubs built in the big boom. 0:36:38.320 --> 0:36:40.520 Yeah, like the seventies, eighties. 0:36:40.200 --> 0:36:42.560 Now, yes, I mean, what are you going to do 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:44.640 when it's a million and a half dollars for an 0:36:44.640 --> 0:36:48.239 irrigation system and that's not really something you can live 0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:51.640 without and it's something you bury, you know, you dig 0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:53.200 a hole, put it in the ground, you bury it, 0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:54.920 but you have to have it. 0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:58.839 What would you do with those like your quintessential dark 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:02.840 ages course? What would you do? Like what I mean, like, 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:05.399 I know it's like a blanket, but like what kind 0:37:05.440 --> 0:37:08.760 of things can you do with you know, the small corridors, 0:37:09.840 --> 0:37:15.120 lots of water? Yeah, I mean some some imaginative. You know, 0:37:15.239 --> 0:37:18.279 moving dirt is very difficult in those spaces, so you 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:21.160 got to be very efficient with how you think about that. 0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:25.040 You know, it's totally different than building a landscape and 0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:27.120 putting your golf course onto that. If you're doing that, 0:37:27.360 --> 0:37:30.000 or taking a really good piece of ground and making 0:37:30.040 --> 0:37:33.160 it happen. You know, when you're playing between two sets 0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:37.560 of houses, you know, what can you really do? I 0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:41.240 think it's trying to make those courses as strategic as possible, 0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:43.839 as interesting as possible. Make you think as much as 0:37:43.880 --> 0:37:47.600 you can is great, but at the same time it's 0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:51.000 going to have to fit within pretty much what was there. 0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:55.680 It's a heck of a challenge. It is, there's no doubt. 0:37:56.000 --> 0:37:59.480 But you know, how do you how do you reinvest 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:06.560 in your self and get better but not completely mess 0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:09.640 yourself up where you know that you're not going to 0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:12.920 be able to sustain yourself then because. 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:15.960 He can't invest too much and then not be able 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:16.680 to you. 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:19.000 Know, and there are a lot of clubs that are 0:38:19.000 --> 0:38:22.959 in the black barely or just a little in the red. 0:38:23.400 --> 0:38:26.719 Now you put this massive either debt service or whatever, 0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:30.960 now you know you're on an even bigger uphill climb. 0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:34.920 And so we talked a little bit about, you know, 0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:40.719 golfer IQ and having golfers understand more than what they're 0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:43.799 looking at or what they're used to, and then how 0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:46.759 do they how can they learn from some of those 0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:52.719 things that they see outside and then make good decisions 0:38:52.840 --> 0:38:57.560 because you see clubs make a popular decision, but maybe 0:38:57.600 --> 0:38:59.000 not a good decision, do you know what I mean? 0:38:59.120 --> 0:39:03.480 Like popular meaning everybody's doing it, but this might not 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:06.080 be the thing we need to do. But it's like 0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:07.120 the trendy thing to do. 0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:14.680 It's tough, it's too It's like making decisions within the 0:39:14.680 --> 0:39:18.400 context of a bigger plan because like, God, I was 0:39:18.440 --> 0:39:22.759 at this place recently, and I've I've been there a ton, 0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:25.240 like when I was younger, and it's a cool little place, 0:39:25.320 --> 0:39:27.600 but it's not. It will never be a world beater 0:39:27.680 --> 0:39:30.880 golf course. And it's got a single owner now, Like 0:39:30.920 --> 0:39:33.279 it's got a situation where it could be really good. 0:39:33.280 --> 0:39:36.719 The guy is spending money, but he's doing it with 0:39:36.920 --> 0:39:39.799 like no plan, and like you think about, like, oh, 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:42.960 you just did this big drainage project on the side 0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:46.920 of a green and you know, you install this car path, 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:49.600 but like did you really think about like how you 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:52.799 could you know, have done all that and build the 0:39:52.920 --> 0:39:55.759 tea at the same time right there that could make 0:39:55.800 --> 0:39:58.759 the next hole way better and move the path somewhere else. 0:39:58.800 --> 0:40:01.319 So it's not like in the line of sight, like 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:04.399 and it's like if you just had a little bit 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:06.759 of foresight, you wouldn't have spent any more money and 0:40:06.800 --> 0:40:08.600 you would have gotten so much more done. 0:40:08.719 --> 0:40:12.399 Absolutely, it's back to kind of that pet peeve thing. 0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:15.280 A pet peeve of looking at past work is how 0:40:16.480 --> 0:40:20.200 something was done and it just a little different execution 0:40:20.200 --> 0:40:22.960 would have made it so much better without costing another penny. Yea, 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:27.880 Your car paths are famous for everybody wants new car 0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:29.800 pass because they don't like the bumps or the brakes 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:33.200 or whatever, and they'll pave over an existing path that's 0:40:33.239 --> 0:40:35.880 in a horrible spot, maybe to save a penny or something. 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:39.680 They'll build a dam that won't allow something to drain 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:42.560 because of that, it'll be flashed to the players. So 0:40:42.600 --> 0:40:45.160 you're staring at it. You have golf balls bouncing. 0:40:45.360 --> 0:40:45.560 You know. 0:40:45.920 --> 0:40:48.400 How about the car path where trees have been removed, 0:40:48.800 --> 0:40:51.319 but the car pass still does the s curve where 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:56.560 the trees. Gosh, that's tough. I hate that. But yeah, 0:40:56.600 --> 0:41:01.000 I mean, why can't you make make good quality decisions, 0:41:01.040 --> 0:41:02.719 do all the work in the area, check it off 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:04.520 the list, and move on to the next thing. You know, 0:41:04.840 --> 0:41:08.000 That's what I really and look phased work is really hard. 0:41:08.080 --> 0:41:10.319 It might be the hardest thing to do because no 0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:12.799 matter what, when you come back even a year later 0:41:12.840 --> 0:41:14.920 and you're trying to replicate what you did the year previous, 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:19.480 it's like starting all over. But you gotta do what 0:41:19.560 --> 0:41:22.799 you can do, and you can't sit still, it's like 0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:25.600 the white pines. Those are never going to get better. 0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:29.040 You might as well get them down. You know, if 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:31.840 a tree is failing, it's not going to get better. 0:41:32.320 --> 0:41:34.280 It stinks that. You know, it might be the stately 0:41:34.360 --> 0:41:37.640 tree that you know has been at the club for forever, right. 0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:41.440 Yeah, for the last forty years, yeah, right of two, 0:41:41.760 --> 0:41:43.480 it's one hundred plus year history. 0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:46.880 But if the thing isn't leafing out, and you know, 0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:49.160 you gotta take it down, I'm sorry. 0:41:49.360 --> 0:41:52.080 And then there's like a really nice oak tree that 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:54.920 four of them surround. That's what drives men's It's like 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:58.400 the best tree on the property is just covered in 0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:00.799 trees around it. It's like, just let that guy do 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:02.920 all the work that all these other trees are doing. 0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:03.920 Yeah, let him breathe. 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:08.200 Yeah, it's so let's talk about good golf. H O. 0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:11.000 You were just over in Scotland. Was that your first time? 0:42:11.080 --> 0:42:13.319 It was? Yeah, I can't believe it took me so long. 0:42:14.080 --> 0:42:17.200 What you know, what were your thoughts? Where'd you go? 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:21.399 So played more golf than we should have. A couple 0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:26.839 buddies played nine times in six days. It was I'd 0:42:26.880 --> 0:42:30.799 played four times total in twenty sixteen. And seventeen of 0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:32.719 like golf other than you know, playing with my kids 0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:36.479 or something. So my golf game actually is worse after 0:42:36.520 --> 0:42:40.680 playing more because I used to kind of Bruce Letzkit. 0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:45.960 But it was a ton of fun. We started on 0:42:46.000 --> 0:42:48.000 the west coast, went all the way north and then 0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:50.319 came back to kind of the east coast, so it 0:42:50.360 --> 0:42:52.880 was it was a little stupid. Actually. The guy that 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.440 helped me put the trip together is like, you're you're insane, 0:42:56.000 --> 0:42:57.200 and I was like, yeah, but I want to see 0:42:57.200 --> 0:42:59.239 as much. I don't know when I'm going to come back. Well, 0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:00.960 the crazy thing is after I got back, it's like 0:43:00.960 --> 0:43:02.960 I want to go next year. It's like I really 0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:05.320 should have I don't know, I should have thought it 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:07.800 through it better. But a couple of things that struck 0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:13.439 me the simplicity of the game. I wish more people 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:15.359 could experience it because I think it would give them 0:43:15.400 --> 0:43:18.880 better perspective on what's important. 0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:19.680 Raise their golf. 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:26.560 For IQ golfer IQ absolutely, just the brilliance of using 0:43:26.600 --> 0:43:37.040 the ground, the differing problems. The community or golf is 0:43:37.200 --> 0:43:40.279 a community lifestyle over there. It's like everybody's a member 0:43:40.280 --> 0:43:42.480 of the club. It doesn't cost that much money to 0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:45.399 be a member. They love the game, they love their 0:43:45.440 --> 0:43:49.160 course the best, the most fun I had from an 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:52.439 experience standpoint at Taine, which is just a little south 0:43:52.440 --> 0:43:58.000 of Dornic, and then at North Barrack, the caddies were 0:43:58.360 --> 0:44:01.480 complete like locals, like members. You know, they were like 0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:05.640 called off the bench to come caddy, and their perspective 0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:08.440 on their course, like the pride they had and the 0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:12.080 stories of their club championship, and man, that was so cool. 0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:15.080 It was great. It was more than just you know, 0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:17.920 give me a yardage and telling me you know what line? 0:44:18.480 --> 0:44:22.160 You know was that experience that was great. The level 0:44:22.160 --> 0:44:28.120 of maintenance is different. But I've struggled ever since I 0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:32.520 got back to understand how how can we do better here? 0:44:34.440 --> 0:44:36.480 Part of it is golfer iq that what people see 0:44:36.480 --> 0:44:38.239 on TV is what they think golf should be. So 0:44:38.280 --> 0:44:40.600 everything's lush and green and look, we're doing a better 0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:45.600 job of down and brown and you know, firm and fast. 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:49.560 We're doing better. But golfers still think the best golf 0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:51.960 courses are green to a certain extent, right. 0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:57.080 I mean at Trinity Forrest, like CBS was saturating the 0:44:57.120 --> 0:45:00.800 golf course right because they you know, that it's crazy 0:45:00.800 --> 0:45:04.080 because like the brown golf courses like are almost proven 0:45:04.120 --> 0:45:06.600 to not show well on TV and people like lose 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:09.480 interest because they don't have the perspective. But it all, 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:14.440 I mean, the thing about it is like, it's not 0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:17.240 the course's fault. It's the golfer iq problem. 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:19.760 Yes, And it's not the superintendent's fault by any means. 0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:24.520 And I think golf course superintendents are the most innovative, 0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:26.520 creative guys that I work with. 0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:27.200 Love. 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:30.080 I love how much you can learn. Go spend a 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:33.479 day with a superintendent and just at any club, even 0:45:33.600 --> 0:45:35.480 the lowest level, all the way to the top, and 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:41.799 you'll learn something. The guys are they're awesome, and they 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:46.239 are doing the best to meet their clients' expectations with 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:51.239 the resources they're given. And I get really frustrated when 0:45:51.239 --> 0:45:55.960 clubs start to want to compare maintenance budgets. It's not 0:45:56.160 --> 0:45:59.520 about what your maintenance budget is versus the guy next 0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:03.880 to you. It's what you're trying to present as a club. Okay, 0:46:04.000 --> 0:46:09.040 what level you're trying to present, what level of experience 0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:12.560 the clients, either whether it's daily feed or club members, 0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:17.160 what they expect, and then how that relates to the 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:23.160 quality of golf, and then you're directing the superintendent to say, listen, 0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:25.359 these are kind of the things we're hoping to do. 0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:28.160 Help us do that. Those guys are going to find 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:30.520 a way to do it okay, and they're going to 0:46:30.560 --> 0:46:32.640 give you the best advice of how to get there. 0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:41.640 But I think from a golfer IQ perspective, clients, you know, 0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:44.160 whether it's daily fee golfers that are demanding things to 0:46:44.800 --> 0:46:48.200 get in the door or club members, they're constantly pushing 0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:54.799 their maintenance staffs to do things that you know, they 0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:58.120 can be tough. Whether it's from a resource standpoint, labor 0:46:58.400 --> 0:47:02.000 is huge. Laboring golf might be the number one issue 0:47:02.280 --> 0:47:08.480 to work on, you know, throughout the United States. But 0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:13.120 everything that a member demands or a daily fee golfer 0:47:13.560 --> 0:47:19.279 expects takes effort time. And then depending on where your 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:22.640 golf course sits, so where it is in the country, 0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:26.719 what kind of soil it has, what its water quality is, 0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:30.880 how many trees, how much internal drainage, how good the 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:34.200 golf course was built the first time, all totally relate 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:36.160 to what it takes to maintain it to the level 0:47:36.280 --> 0:47:37.280 that people expect. 0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:39.799 I told you a little bit about this yesterday. I 0:47:39.800 --> 0:47:43.759 wrote about it in the latest Bang for the Buck 0:47:44.040 --> 0:47:47.080 for your buck by side at Michigan, I played this place, 0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:51.640 Champion Hill, and it was built by the owner, which 0:47:51.719 --> 0:47:54.000 usually you think, oh God, this is going to be 0:47:54.000 --> 0:47:58.080 a disaster, and this guy like it was sandy. It's 0:47:58.120 --> 0:48:01.400 an unbelievable piece of ground and he just he didn't 0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:05.360 do anything really dumb, like nothing was you know. The 0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:07.640 greens are in good just made at work. It could 0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:11.880 be routed better. The bunkers are are like hand like 0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:14.479 they look like they're hand dug, like I've hand dug 0:48:14.480 --> 0:48:17.279 a bunker with Jason Way, friend of the Pod but 0:48:17.719 --> 0:48:20.680 before and like they look like the bunker I dug. 0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:24.920 But they're in good spots. And one of the things 0:48:24.920 --> 0:48:28.239 that I thought at walking like it was they had 0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:33.080 gravel paths and single cut everywhere. Love it and like 0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:39.439 that to me is like so smart, Like I don't 0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:42.520 know why more munis don't have single cut. 0:48:43.000 --> 0:48:46.640 Well it's again everybody thinks they want to be what 0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:49.799 they see or what they think they know. Golfer I Q. Yeah, 0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:53.480 so you know back to the UK stuff Scotland, you 0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:56.560 know down a brown thin lies I mean, it was 0:48:56.640 --> 0:48:59.719 awesome golf experienced. Ball runs are along the ground, and 0:48:59.760 --> 0:49:02.920 I'm sure their maintenance inputs aren't nearly what we do 0:49:03.000 --> 0:49:05.920 even at a maybe even a municipal level, you know 0:49:05.960 --> 0:49:11.040 here in the States. And it's just, you know, we've 0:49:11.040 --> 0:49:14.560 got to work to educate golfers on what is good 0:49:14.600 --> 0:49:18.080 golf right. How do you know golf can be anything. 0:49:18.120 --> 0:49:22.279 I played a sand greens course in Salem, Virginia a 0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:26.879 little bit as a kid. I mean, it's it's golf, right. 0:49:26.960 --> 0:49:28.840 It's not the most complicated thing in the world, but 0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:36.920 it's golf. But it's you know, there's decision decisions that 0:49:36.960 --> 0:49:40.239 are being made in perspectives that we could all do 0:49:40.280 --> 0:49:42.680 a better job on and I think it would help 0:49:42.719 --> 0:49:47.080 the game throughout and the municipal courses. You know, it 0:49:47.400 --> 0:49:51.440 really depends. Let me back up. I think any great 0:49:51.520 --> 0:49:56.759 golf experience, great golf course, even if it's not at 0:49:56.760 --> 0:50:00.839 the highest level, has someone that has a incredible sense 0:50:00.840 --> 0:50:04.360 of ownership. So like here at Inverness s p. Germaine, 0:50:04.960 --> 0:50:07.160 was the driving force of getting this club off the ground. 0:50:08.160 --> 0:50:13.000 Tremendous impact. But you get like in the modern day, 0:50:13.040 --> 0:50:16.120 you get a lot of places where they're either people 0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:21.719 involved that it's a job there's not a sense of ownership, 0:50:22.680 --> 0:50:29.200 or there's a lot of chiefs but not a good voice. 0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:32.480 I think all of these places, especially maybe municipals, would 0:50:32.480 --> 0:50:36.160 benefit from a good voice, you know, somebody that has 0:50:36.200 --> 0:50:43.240 a vision, understands and can help get aligned and it's. 0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:48.040 Empowered and not like I think like is allowed and 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:51.239 given like that, like yes, you know somebody that might 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:53.640 keep them in check on like hey, like we can't 0:50:53.680 --> 0:50:56.560 afford this right now. But somebody that when they say, hey, 0:50:56.600 --> 0:50:59.480 we should do this, they don't. The immediate response isn't no. 0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:03.239 And I think if you look at I love looking 0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:05.200 at old aerols and you guys, you guys have done 0:51:05.200 --> 0:51:06.959 a great job with your sliders and things of looking 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:09.440 back and forth. But you can really see clubs of 0:51:09.520 --> 0:51:14.279 any level that it's like chasing a squirrel. You know, 0:51:14.360 --> 0:51:16.600 they start after a one direction, then the squirrel runs 0:51:16.600 --> 0:51:18.360 over to the next tree, and then they're chasing that, 0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:22.719 and then you know it's not even somewhat linear. I 0:51:22.840 --> 0:51:26.239 use a I've used it before, like a family circus, 0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:28.880 you know, Billy goes on the adventure. I mean some 0:51:28.880 --> 0:51:31.440 clubs are like that, right, they're like all over the 0:51:31.480 --> 0:51:34.839 place where it would be so much better if if 0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:37.279 they just kind of picked a direction and went. Even 0:51:37.360 --> 0:51:39.800 if there's mistakes along the way, you know they're headed 0:51:39.840 --> 0:51:41.120 in a good direction. 0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:46.200 There's very few places that have just like been content 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:50.600 with doing nothing well, and some of the best spots 0:51:51.239 --> 0:51:53.000 end up being the ones that were broke for a 0:51:53.040 --> 0:51:55.080 really long time because they didn't have any money to 0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:55.600 do anything. 0:51:55.880 --> 0:52:02.839 Yeah, Film in Philadelphia had struggled for a while trying 0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:07.560 to figure out how to keep going, and they're kind 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:11.480 of still working through some of the management stuff. But 0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:15.799 that golf course, there was some debate whether it was 0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:19.600 Flynn or who designed it the north especially there, and 0:52:19.640 --> 0:52:22.279 we kind of uncovered it was Willie Park Junior. But 0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:25.719 because they didn't do a lot along the way, it's 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:30.879 so well preserved. You're exactly right. It's it's pretty amazing 0:52:31.120 --> 0:52:32.560 when there broke well. 0:52:32.760 --> 0:52:37.000 Yeah, yeah, you've been listening to the fried Egg podcast. 0:52:37.440 --> 0:52:39.000 We do the digging for you.