Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production
Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd
Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Two weeks ago, the Wall Street Journal dropped a new
Speaker 1: report detailing new allegations of sexual harassment, misogyny, and toxic
Speaker 1: sexism from the leadership at Activision Blizzard, the company behind
Speaker 1: games like Candy Crush, Call of Duty, and World of
Speaker 1: Warcraft and one of the largest and most influential gaming
Speaker 1: companies in the world. I joined my friends Samantha and
Speaker 1: Annie at the podcast stuff Mom Never told you to
Speaker 1: dig into what we know about how video game companies
Speaker 1: fail women and why it matters for all of us.
Speaker 1: And if you're a gamer, I want to hear from you.
Speaker 1: What is your experience as a gamer? Bent like, have
Speaker 1: you ever faced harassment while gaming? After you listen to
Speaker 1: the episode, let us know at Hello at tangodi dot com. Hey,
Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to Stephane
Speaker 1: never told your production of iHeart Radio. Today we are
Speaker 1: once again joined by our good friend and the amazing,
Speaker 1: wonderful Bridget Todd. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Bridget Oh, thanks for having me. Y'all always give me
Speaker 1: the most warm welcomes. I love the intros because they're
Speaker 1: so happy to love you. We are so excited to
Speaker 1: have you. Yes, so Bridget, do you have any fun
Speaker 1: things on the horizon, any plans coming up? Yes? Well,
Speaker 1: the most fun things I have on the horizon is
Speaker 1: that my partner and I do this thing every holiday
Speaker 1: season that we call weirdo Christmas, and we actually hope
Speaker 1: I think that everybody should should try it out. We're
Speaker 1: no Christmas is an activity that we do where after Thanksgiving,
Speaker 1: but before Christmas, we go on our own little solo
Speaker 1: trip just sort of, you know, half fun before the
Speaker 1: official holiday season, and we bring costumes and lights and
Speaker 1: just have a weird time. And it's just a fun
Speaker 1: way to sort of if you're if you're from a
Speaker 1: traditional family that does Christmas in a very traditional way,
Speaker 1: can this be a fun way to counterbalance that? So
Speaker 1: weirdo Christmas coming up? Very excited? Oh? I love it.
Speaker 1: What kind of costumes you got? Planned? Mind? The last
Speaker 1: time I but we did this, I wore a fur
Speaker 1: hat and a fur vest and fur boots. It was
Speaker 1: like a fur theme. Double down on the fur again
Speaker 1: into yeah, I encourage people to like whatever you know,
Speaker 1: your weirdness looks like, just because people are like weirdos
Speaker 1: or non traditionalist doesn't mean that we can't also enjoy
Speaker 1: like holiday cheer and festivity and so um. I used
Speaker 1: to always feel a little alienated around Christmas time, you know,
Speaker 1: I felt like if I wasn't doing something super traditional
Speaker 1: around the holidays, and like you basically didn't have any
Speaker 1: way to celebrate. And that's not true, because you can
Speaker 1: all celebrate your Christmas. I love this. Yeah, I will
Speaker 1: say like, as a person who does not love the
Speaker 1: holidays in general, doing something completely off the cuff, it
Speaker 1: sounds better, especially if you can establish it yourself, I
Speaker 1: will say eighty And I seem to do kind of
Speaker 1: that for New Year's where we dress up as something random,
Speaker 1: like I have a couple of onesies that I like
Speaker 1: to put on, and we will cheers each other through
Speaker 1: whether it's like us pictures or text, but we're wearing
Speaker 1: costumes usually. I don't know why, we just kind of
Speaker 1: like we give up on going out, let's do this instead.
Speaker 1: I think it's because New Year's is such a I've
Speaker 1: had great New Year's, but generally I feel like the
Speaker 1: pressure is very intense and it's always a mess, and
Speaker 1: so I was kind of like, I want to stay in.
Speaker 1: I'm going to read my fan fiction. And then it
Speaker 1: became we'll wear onesies and drink champagne at midnight and
Speaker 1: cheer it's each other. See. I love that because just
Speaker 1: because you're not somebody who is interested in spending hundreds
Speaker 1: of dollars to have a you know, less than stellar
Speaker 1: night on New Year's Eve, doesn't mean that you should
Speaker 1: get to miss out on like New Year's Eve holiday merriment.
Speaker 1: Like that's exactly this in the spirit of weirdo Christmas,
Speaker 1: that you should, like not wanting to do the traditional
Speaker 1: thing that everybody does doesn't mean that you should just
Speaker 1: be boxed out of getting to, you know, have festivity
Speaker 1: in merriment. So I like this, we need to we
Speaker 1: need to roll in. We'll do We're no Christmas, We're
Speaker 1: no New Year's hopefully well this calendar going, yes there,
Speaker 1: we want to be a Google calendar, let's go. I
Speaker 1: love it. I think we should sell one. So I
Speaker 1: also wanted to before we dive into this topic, which
Speaker 1: I'm both very excited and very like anxious slash nervous
Speaker 1: slash angry to talk about I wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a very big gamer. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of the listeners know that always played video games, and
Speaker 1: I've always played, in quotes traditional video games, being like
Speaker 1: Nintendo Supernintendo PlayStation, like those kind of console video games,
Speaker 1: and I have a lot of history and experience with that.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to ask the both of you what
Speaker 1: your experience with gaming at large, not just console gaming is.
Speaker 1: I've always thought that was the one of the coolest
Speaker 1: things about you, Annie, is how into console game and
Speaker 1: you are. I wish that I was. I aspired to be.
Speaker 1: I don't really play much these days. When I was younger,
Speaker 1: I really liked the world of Warcraft. Going back even further,
Speaker 1: I was very much into like Super Nintendo when the
Speaker 1: when the pandemic first started, we got one of those
Speaker 1: I guess what you an emulator, I don't know what
Speaker 1: you call it, but like to be able to play
Speaker 1: old Sega games and old Supernintendo games on our TV.
Speaker 1: And I remember I was like, oh my gosh, how
Speaker 1: much I loved, how much I loved and was obsessed
Speaker 1: with those growing up. But these days not not so much.
Speaker 1: I'm so curious, say on what your relationship to daming
Speaker 1: has looked like. Um, I would be the boomer who
Speaker 1: did not understand and does not understand these games, to
Speaker 1: the point that I still ask both Annie and my
Speaker 1: partner like, Okay, so the point of this game is
Speaker 1: A B C D and then just sit there and
Speaker 1: look at them puzzled. I do this a lot because
Speaker 1: I still have to ask, especially when it comes to
Speaker 1: console games, a lot of questions. I never really grew
Speaker 1: into that really cared about it much growing up. I
Speaker 1: did buy a switch during the pandemic because I was like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I can play these games. So these games being Mario Party,
Speaker 1: where essentially it's just kind of a chance, and I
Speaker 1: get very mad at everyone about it because they all cheat.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure Mario Kart. Same thing. I do like
Speaker 1: to announce how many times I fall off, because again
Speaker 1: I don't quite understand the buttons. Uh. Same thing with
Speaker 1: any of those kind of things. But I do enjoy
Speaker 1: to an extent until I'm frustrated that I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't know what y'all are doing. You keep telling me
Speaker 1: to push, but this us in this that doesn't make
Speaker 1: sense my fingers don't do this. So that's how I
Speaker 1: feel about those games. But I've tried, I've got I've
Speaker 1: grown to like them more and more. But I am
Speaker 1: more of a phone game person, and I always have.
Speaker 1: I did really enjoy I guess the really first big
Speaker 1: game that I played, and I know we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about them, was Candy Crush that has
Speaker 1: since been taken off to make room for games that
Speaker 1: are the puzzle games that have a narrative in it,
Speaker 1: and and we've talked about it previously on a Monday
Speaker 1: Minty because those damn ads that we talked about that
Speaker 1: has those dramatic leaving somebody cheating on somebody murdering somebody.
Speaker 1: Apparently um had really reeled me into being like, what
Speaker 1: is this game? I need to know? And to the
Speaker 1: point that I've tried to reel Annie in on at
Speaker 1: least one we talked about Lily's Garden and uh, Bridget,
Speaker 1: if you have a chance, I need you to play
Speaker 1: this game as well. The phone not a sponsor and
Speaker 1: it was created by a woman, So the woman did
Speaker 1: this whole game, and she did all of the programming
Speaker 1: behind it, and you can kind of tell by the
Speaker 1: relationships in it. So I'm like, huh, it is definitely
Speaker 1: different than the other games where it's just like, oh,
Speaker 1: this girl looks like your typical white sorority girl who
Speaker 1: has all these stereotypes attached to her talking to a
Speaker 1: cute white boy. That's this This one is a little different.
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, and now I'm really caught
Speaker 1: up in it. So that is my gaming expertise. And
Speaker 1: Annie had to tell me that this was gaming because
Speaker 1: I was like, no, I don't. I don't what. I
Speaker 1: don't know what you're talking about. I just stay on
Speaker 1: my phone. Yes, I mean, that's so funny. Where do
Speaker 1: you think this idea that playing of you if you
Speaker 1: like quote just play on your phone, that you're not
Speaker 1: actually gaming? Like, where did that attitude come from? I
Speaker 1: think it came from Let's see if I can condense this.
Speaker 1: So in the eighties, toys were gendered, and video games
Speaker 1: were coming out at that time, and they got put
Speaker 1: into boys toys because the marketers at the time thought
Speaker 1: um that they would have more success in that category.
Speaker 1: It fit more into that category, and so it became
Speaker 1: a like boys arena, and therefore, like any girl entering
Speaker 1: into that space, and I speak from experience, was seen
Speaker 1: as sort of like an anomaly and like, why are
Speaker 1: you coming in here? This is like are you trying
Speaker 1: to trick us into thinking that you're good? Or look
Speaker 1: how cute she thinks she can do this, or like
Speaker 1: once you get older, are you trying to get a date?
Speaker 1: And so I think it became a very like boys space,
Speaker 1: and so that became serious gaming. And so when phone
Speaker 1: games came out and everybody who had a phone had
Speaker 1: more access to it, and especially women were coming in
Speaker 1: and playing, that became like, that's frivolous gaming. That is
Speaker 1: not gaming. I I being the boy who was growing
Speaker 1: up with this. Um, I am the c as gamer
Speaker 1: and this is what gaming is. I think it's another
Speaker 1: example of gate keeping around that that makes me so sad.
Speaker 1: It is very tragical. I will say, I am in
Speaker 1: level three thousand something. Look at this, this is a
Speaker 1: pro We got a pro on here. You should demand
Speaker 1: respect so that this is what I do rather than
Speaker 1: spending time with people. Well, and just to add to
Speaker 1: that before we get into this, for a long time,
Speaker 1: the kind of running commentary around this has been most
Speaker 1: gamers are men. But when you add in phone games
Speaker 1: like games in my opinion, but yes, phone games, then
Speaker 1: it does you towards women. But as in the last
Speaker 1: two years, I believe even quote serious gaming or console gaming,
Speaker 1: more women play than men. So I think we really
Speaker 1: got to reframe our thoughts around what a gamer looks like. Definitely,
Speaker 1: And I think it really speaks to sort of the
Speaker 1: dark arts of marketing. You see this all over tech,
Speaker 1: where the demographic that is being marketed to and thus
Speaker 1: sort of creating this perception of they're the main the
Speaker 1: biggest demographic like that that has done so much bad
Speaker 1: stuff in terms of making these different industries and across
Speaker 1: technology look like who is who actually makes them up?
Speaker 1: Like who is actually in them? And so even while
Speaker 1: women are are making up this lie and share of
Speaker 1: people who are gaming, marketing still would have you believe
Speaker 1: that that's not true, right, whether we the way that
Speaker 1: we are, perceptions of it is still so warped and
Speaker 1: it doesn't actually you know, align with the reality of
Speaker 1: who is actually in this demographic, right, And I think
Speaker 1: even in the games that are getting made and how
Speaker 1: women are portrayed in a lot of those games, they
Speaker 1: would very much lead you to believe that men are
Speaker 1: the intended audience and the preferred audience. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: what you brought today, bridget as infuriating as it is
Speaker 1: very important to talk about and really ongoing situation, which
Speaker 1: is what is going on with Activision Blizzard. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you grounded this and the idea
Speaker 1: that it is ongoing. This is a current conversation. Uh
Speaker 1: the first came on my radar over the summer m
Speaker 1: but it is completely ongoing and just last week, you know,
Speaker 1: new updates in it. So essentially, the gaming company, Activision Blizzard,
Speaker 1: they're under fire for allegations the company has fostered a
Speaker 1: really toxic workplace where their women's staffers are mistreated and
Speaker 1: harassed and I'm just not treated equally. And last week
Speaker 1: new reporting from the Wall Street Journal has really shed
Speaker 1: new light on these allegations. And you know, last week
Speaker 1: the staff has been mobilizing, they had to walk out.
Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, when we think about
Speaker 1: different arenas and technology, some some people who don't game
Speaker 1: might be listening with this and think like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: big deal, who cares, But particularly as more and more
Speaker 1: young people are finding themselves on online worlds and online
Speaker 1: platforms built by by, you know, gaming companies. It is
Speaker 1: really important to think through like how are these how
Speaker 1: are these games where so many young people are spending
Speaker 1: their time, how do they come to be? What kind
Speaker 1: of cultures are they coming up in? UM? And so
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why I think this this
Speaker 1: story is such a big deal. Activision Blizzard is also
Speaker 1: just a big deal as a company. There are a
Speaker 1: major gaming company. They produce Candy Crush, Call of Duty, Overwatch,
Speaker 1: in the world of Warcraft, so major games, and uh,
Speaker 1: it's probably I think it's I think it in at
Speaker 1: least it was the biggest gaming company in both the
Speaker 1: United States and Europe. So like, not only is it
Speaker 1: an important story in terms of the culture these games
Speaker 1: are being produced in, it's also a major business story
Speaker 1: because we're talking huge global companies and the climates that
Speaker 1: these big companies foster can really make a difference in
Speaker 1: the industry and like what the industry is Like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're hugely influential. They make like billions and billions
Speaker 1: of dollars, and yeah, having such a big player in
Speaker 1: that space does ripple out and impact all these other
Speaker 1: UM players in that space, and I know, like I've
Speaker 1: read some of the stories of people women who have
Speaker 1: worked at these companies and it's just terrific And to
Speaker 1: like have them be so excited because they grew up
Speaker 1: playing games or they it was really important to them
Speaker 1: and to be so excited to get this opportunity, and
Speaker 1: then it's just awful the amount of harassment, uh they faced,
Speaker 1: which have started coming out over the past few years,
Speaker 1: right yeah, so um. There was a two year investigation
Speaker 1: but concluded in July. The California Department of Fair Employment
Speaker 1: and Housing felt a lawsuit over the summer alleging sexual discrimination, harassment,
Speaker 1: and like a general kind of frat boy culture at
Speaker 1: ACT division Lizard and the investigation down that the company
Speaker 1: discriminated against female employees in both arms and conditions of employment, um,
Speaker 1: including compensation, assignment, promotion, in termination, and that company leadership
Speaker 1: consistently failed to take steps to prevent discrimination, harassment, and retaliation.
Speaker 1: And like you were saying when you get into some
Speaker 1: of the specific stories of the kinds of things that
Speaker 1: went on here, Like one of the allegations that was
Speaker 1: made was that the men at the company would often
Speaker 1: do these things called cube crawls, in which male employees
Speaker 1: would drink copious amounts of alcohol as they crawl their
Speaker 1: way through various cubicles in the office and engage in
Speaker 1: inappropriate behavior towards female employees. Like, imagine if that was
Speaker 1: just the thing that happened in your workplace, right that, Oh,
Speaker 1: just it's Thursday. Obviously the male staffers are all gonna
Speaker 1: get really drunk and crawl on their hands and knees
Speaker 1: into my office and harass me while I'm trying to work.
Speaker 1: Like some of the allegations are that have come out
Speaker 1: are just so horrifying, and it's like, I can just
Speaker 1: just like what you were saying. I can imagine being
Speaker 1: so excited to work at a company that is so
Speaker 1: influent menial in the gaming space and then get there
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, actually I have to put up
Speaker 1: with the most degrading behavior just to do my job here. Right.
Speaker 1: It sends a really clear message of whether like the
Speaker 1: company culture and who belongs and who doesn't, and like
Speaker 1: what the kind of status quo how they view you
Speaker 1: is someone who it's okay to her ask like your
Speaker 1: job is not important um or that you are kind
Speaker 1: of that outlier that you know, why are you here.
Speaker 1: Is it to get a man or to just for
Speaker 1: us to to kind of all go and harass at
Speaker 1: your job? Okay, I'm thinking like, I wonder how much
Speaker 1: it took for them to even get an interview to
Speaker 1: go through how and we've talked about how in general,
Speaker 1: women when they apply for anything, they have to be
Speaker 1: sure like they are qualify before they even attempt it,
Speaker 1: so making sure that they are able to prove that
Speaker 1: they can work there, and then going through all of
Speaker 1: a who's because they have to do so much more
Speaker 1: than men typically, and within a business like this, you
Speaker 1: have to do even more to prove that you are
Speaker 1: worthy and knowledgeable of these things, and then coming into
Speaker 1: their and being dismissed as if you were an intern.
Speaker 1: Not that intern should be treated this way either, but
Speaker 1: essentially as if you're coming to learn instead of being
Speaker 1: a professional and be like, hey, I'm here, and then
Speaker 1: watching this nonsense like I would. That makes me want
Speaker 1: to throw things. For Yes, it's curiating, and there are
Speaker 1: some of the details coming out. I'm just like, wow,
Speaker 1: somebody somewhere thought this is acceptable, like um. In one example,
Speaker 1: an Activision employee had for years just signed his email
Speaker 1: signature on all and you know in this in this
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal podcast that broke these broke these new allegations,
Speaker 1: she makes this good point. You know, so if you're
Speaker 1: a woman, you would get an email and just be like,
Speaker 1: this is normal. It is normal to get an email
Speaker 1: that has this sign off. And then to make things worse,
Speaker 1: this employee worked there for a month, right, Like, they
Speaker 1: took a month for them to fire this employee, and
Speaker 1: they had an investigation, and we're gonna be it's like,
Speaker 1: what was there even to investigate investigation? Even look like
Speaker 1: you're like right there, here's the email. Either go ahead
Speaker 1: and discipline them, or why are we waiting a month? Right? Um?
Speaker 1: And then like the saddest thing is this is pretty sad.
Speaker 1: So like, if you're someone who you know it has
Speaker 1: has a difficult time talking about suicide, I'm sorry to
Speaker 1: proport that this is something that happened. Um. The suit
Speaker 1: also points that a female Activision employee died by suicide
Speaker 1: while on a company trip with her male supervisor. The
Speaker 1: employee had been subjected to intense sexual harassment prior to
Speaker 1: her death, including having nude photos of her passed around
Speaker 1: at a company holiday party and you know, I think
Speaker 1: that just really underscores the seriousness of what was going
Speaker 1: on and the seriousness of the of the toxic culture
Speaker 1: that was happening at Activision that somebody died by suicide
Speaker 1: with in regards to it, Yeah, yeah, and and because
Speaker 1: as we said, this is ongoing, like it's not like
Speaker 1: something happened something tragic like this happened and then they
Speaker 1: fixed it. It was, oh, you know, we've known this
Speaker 1: has been going on. This is sort of the accepted culture.
Speaker 1: Let's move on from this. And that's been one of
Speaker 1: the most frustrating, Like all of it's really upsetting, but
Speaker 1: that's been one of the most frustrating things is it's
Speaker 1: like all of these instances over and over and over,
Speaker 1: and it seems that they just really could care less.
Speaker 1: They're like, all right, let's just wait for this publicity
Speaker 1: to blow over. They'll be fine, and we'll continue as
Speaker 1: as we've done, and that's acceptable to them. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: is the message that I think they're putting out. I think,
Speaker 1: just just like you, when I heard about this employee
Speaker 1: who died by suicide, I thought, certainly this will be this,
Speaker 1: Like it's obvious to anyone that big chain is are necessary,
Speaker 1: a change in leadership, a change in culture. This is
Speaker 1: not the kind of thing that I think training or
Speaker 1: you know, bringing in a counselor is going to help.
Speaker 1: And then I was really surprised to see that, you know,
Speaker 1: initially the company was saying, like, these reports aren't true.
Speaker 1: It just showed it just showed me that they weren't
Speaker 1: taking it very seriously. So when these allegations first surfaced
Speaker 1: in the summer activision, CEO Bobby Cootick he denied the allegations,
Speaker 1: saying that the lawsuit allegations were inaccurate, adding that the
Speaker 1: picture that the lawsuit paints is not the Blizzard workplace
Speaker 1: of today. But the staff really say otherwise, and so
Speaker 1: a lot of them put the blame squarely on his shoulders,
Speaker 1: as like the CEO of this company, the seat, the
Speaker 1: person who is overseeing all of this like really toxic stuff.
Speaker 1: And what's really upsetting to me is that initially Bobby
Speaker 1: Kotick was denying that he had any knowledge of this
Speaker 1: kind of conduct happening, right. Uh, he was like, I
Speaker 1: have no awareness of this. I didn't know this was happening,
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until after this lawsuit came out that
Speaker 1: in October, he eventually apologized to the staff and agreed
Speaker 1: to pay eighteen million dollars in settlement with federal regulators
Speaker 1: and pledged to take steps to improve have a company
Speaker 1: treats employees. And so you might think, you know, okay,
Speaker 1: like that's the end of the story, Like they paid
Speaker 1: the money, they apologized, they pledged to do better. But
Speaker 1: this is where the story is continuing, because the Wall
Speaker 1: Street Journal reported that not only did he know about
Speaker 1: this behavior, he was an active participant himself in this behavior. Um.
Speaker 1: And so what's really funny is that in his kind
Speaker 1: of apology tour, he was like, now, Blizzard is going
Speaker 1: to have a zero tolerance policy against this kind of behavior,
Speaker 1: but that he had to specifically note that that policy
Speaker 1: was not inclusive of his own behavior. And he was like, oh,
Speaker 1: well it's zero tolerance, but like not for me. You know,
Speaker 1: It's all good. Yeah, I mean I know, like, um,
Speaker 1: players have have kind of spoken out and you know,
Speaker 1: said done like strikes where they won't play, and the
Speaker 1: workers have spoken out. But still still, uh, this guy
Speaker 1: is still around despite like a lot of allegations coming
Speaker 1: out against him. Oh yes, so some of the allegations
Speaker 1: against him, specifically, according to The Wall Street Journal, over
Speaker 1: the years, Mr Kotick himself has been accused by several
Speaker 1: women of mistreatment, both inside and outside of the workplace.
Speaker 1: In some instances, he has worked to settle those complaints
Speaker 1: quickly and quietly, so a couple of the specific allegations.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, he reportedly harassed one of
Speaker 1: his assistants, including threatening and a voicemail to have her
Speaker 1: killed with imagine if your boss was like, I'll have
Speaker 1: you killed. If I know it's shocking, Yes, yes, I
Speaker 1: mean a lot of It's one of those things that
Speaker 1: you read about this that there's almost a part of
Speaker 1: you that's like, can't be real, But in the back
Speaker 1: of your head you're like, no, unfortunately, I think it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is kind of like a big part
Speaker 1: of narcissists and that could power you see these levels
Speaker 1: like that they think they're untouchable, as well as the
Speaker 1: fact that no, just saying that it's actually a felony.
Speaker 1: That is a felony. But congratulations, you have money and
Speaker 1: I'm assuming he's white, you can move. Oh he is.
Speaker 1: It's funny because he's almost like in some of these reports,
Speaker 1: he kind of comes off as like a mega wealthy,
Speaker 1: like mega powerful super villain. Uh, you know. In two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, he allegedly told a private jet flight
Speaker 1: attendant who was suing him for sexual harassment committed by
Speaker 1: the pilot of his private jet, I'm going to destroy you.
Speaker 1: I feel like telling a flight attendant on your private jet,
Speaker 1: I'm going to destroy you is some like Mr Burns
Speaker 1: level powerful narcissist run amuck with power and money stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, And I mean I can just imagine like
Speaker 1: if he, you know, has played video games that he
Speaker 1: sees himself as like the hero of this story or
Speaker 1: like the powerful I can do anything because I have
Speaker 1: like ascended every level in this video game that is
Speaker 1: this company that I run, and I can treat people
Speaker 1: however I want. Yeah, in my mind, I'm seeing like
Speaker 1: a Harvey Weinstein of this industry because that's exactly what
Speaker 1: he would do with women that would just say no
Speaker 1: to him. And in my mind, this seems to be
Speaker 1: what he is doing with women. If he's threatening them,
Speaker 1: they're willing to go to harm them whatever they There's
Speaker 1: no telling what he has actually done that people are
Speaker 1: not speaking out about Yet that's such a good point,
Speaker 1: and I think that Harvey Weinstein comparison is apt. And
Speaker 1: I do think that the kind of things that he's
Speaker 1: being accused of, I think really illustrate a just a
Speaker 1: particular kind of view of women. That we men are
Speaker 1: around to serve you and to do whatever you want
Speaker 1: them to do, and that the idea that like a
Speaker 1: woman would say no to you, the idea that a
Speaker 1: woman who works on your private jet would sue you
Speaker 1: for the behavior of your of your pilot. You know.
Speaker 1: I think that the way that he responds to these women,
Speaker 1: it just really illustrates a very particular kind of view
Speaker 1: of women, just as they there to be in service
Speaker 1: of powerful men, regardless of what their actual role is
Speaker 1: um in the organization. And so another thing to point
Speaker 1: out is that I believe the only so like in
Speaker 1: terms of that voicemail where he told his assistant that
Speaker 1: he would have her killed, he's through a spokesperson, he
Speaker 1: said that he immediately apologized for that incident and that
Speaker 1: that he regretted it. I think the only reason that
Speaker 1: he said that is because it's on a voicemail. I
Speaker 1: think that if there was not, you know, audio of
Speaker 1: him saying it so we can't deny it. He I
Speaker 1: don't think you ever would be like, oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: definitely said that. I regretted it. I apologized. You know
Speaker 1: this that in the third I mean, the only reason
Speaker 1: you did that is because she You know, if it's
Speaker 1: a voicemail, you have proof, right right? Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: so too. And I think again, this is like my
Speaker 1: very personal experience, but I have had a lot of
Speaker 1: run ins with some real nasty gamer bros. And I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of like what you were saying,
Speaker 1: bridget of like seeing women in a certain way. I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of like really um condescending, like
Speaker 1: oh she's so cute, Oh she's so cute. She thinks
Speaker 1: she can like threaten me, or she thinks she can
Speaker 1: come into this world Like I'm only she's only here
Speaker 1: because I'm letting her be here. She ignored. If she
Speaker 1: annoys me, if she does something I don't like, then
Speaker 1: like I will threaten her with violence, like immediately get
Speaker 1: her out or find a way to silence her. Um.
Speaker 1: Because yeah, I do think a lot of it is
Speaker 1: like she only exists here because I allow her to
Speaker 1: exist here, which is very, very toxic and gross. I mean,
Speaker 1: how do you even as a gamer yourself? How do
Speaker 1: you continue to show up and put yourself out there,
Speaker 1: even if you're playing with someone who seems accommodating and
Speaker 1: nice and like maybe they're like, you know, a feminist,
Speaker 1: but to know in the back of your head if
Speaker 1: I do something that he doesn't like, he could flip
Speaker 1: on me and turn on me, and I would I
Speaker 1: would see this other side. How do you continue to
Speaker 1: show up and put yourself out there knowing this? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the what really breaks my heart
Speaker 1: about a lot of this because I stopped online gaming
Speaker 1: when I was twelve because I had already at that
Speaker 1: point received enough threats in harassment that it was not
Speaker 1: worth it for me, and it became such a scary experience.
Speaker 1: And I know that this has changed, but for a while,
Speaker 1: like the Xbox Live guidelines had a bullet point in
Speaker 1: there that was like, if you're being her ass, you
Speaker 1: can leave, essentially like not addressing the problem, but being like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know it's going to happen, so too bad. I
Speaker 1: do still. I do still play, but it's much more
Speaker 1: like I played by myself or with friends that I know,
Speaker 1: I do have. When I was in college, I went
Speaker 1: to a technical college and um I entered a Super
Speaker 1: Smash Brothers tournament and I won five hundred dollars. But
Speaker 1: every other competitor, which you can all bet they were
Speaker 1: all men, and some of them were my friends, did
Speaker 1: flip out on me and they were like, you cheated.
Speaker 1: There's no way she could not have one. That is impossible.
Speaker 1: And I was like, people were watching, man, she you
Speaker 1: just didn't think I was a threat, so you didn't
Speaker 1: come at me, and you all die, right, They all
Speaker 1: killed each other, which was my tactic, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: work anyway. But you know, we talked about the story
Speaker 1: actually just this weekend, Annie and I and just talking
Speaker 1: about how men in general in these gaming worlds really
Speaker 1: don't see women as threats, or if they are threats
Speaker 1: is because they are too sexual and or something or
Speaker 1: for their gay So for the male gays in general, uh,
Speaker 1: And I was thinking about that with like feminist frequency.
Speaker 1: They are established because they're trying to protect the women
Speaker 1: in this industry and those who are non binary or
Speaker 1: those who identifies women like they are really trying. But
Speaker 1: even to this day and when I look at when
Speaker 1: they do fundraisers or when they have like things live.
Speaker 1: The amount of harassment just for existing to help women
Speaker 1: is incredible, and the amount of just trolls coming at
Speaker 1: them today when I'm like, oh my god, have you
Speaker 1: not been listening to the fact that the growing number
Speaker 1: of women who love gaming a b who are actually
Speaker 1: here helping you, whether it's helping programming these new games
Speaker 1: that you're really into and developing these new characters that
Speaker 1: you're really into, but you don't want to acknowledge. It's
Speaker 1: such a whole level of like, why why do you
Speaker 1: hate women so much? Why does this industry continue to
Speaker 1: foster a place of hate against women because things like
Speaker 1: Twitch is still having complaints about, hey, you need to
Speaker 1: control the level of harassment that is happening, but because
Speaker 1: of you being silent, nothing is happening. Absolutely, And I
Speaker 1: think it speaks to Annie's point about this idea of like,
Speaker 1: if you don't like it, you can leave. I think
Speaker 1: that there's a misconception that women who game are sort
Speaker 1: of putting themselves in a position to be harassed, and
Speaker 1: if they don't want to be harassed, they should leave.
Speaker 1: And it leaves out this idea of like well, women
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to be harassed just to play games, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that for a lot of these women
Speaker 1: who work in activision, I think the attitude is, you know,
Speaker 1: we're working at a at a BREWI video game company,
Speaker 1: what did you expect? Like it really puts the onus
Speaker 1: on people who have been harassed and survivors to get
Speaker 1: themselves out of situations that they should not be in
Speaker 1: the first place. And I think that's exactly it's like
Speaker 1: a cultural attitude that really blames survivors and blames victims
Speaker 1: for you know, systems that they did not create that
Speaker 1: leads to them being harmed, and you know it. It
Speaker 1: is sam to your point. I do think that we
Speaker 1: all know that games are better, more inclusive, more interesting
Speaker 1: when they're built by inclusive teams, and so your products
Speaker 1: can only be more engaging if women are around to
Speaker 1: help design it. Like you were talking about how Lily's
Speaker 1: Garden is a more fun game for you because you
Speaker 1: can tell it was, you know, put put together by
Speaker 1: a woman, and it's better than the games where you
Speaker 1: can tell this is designed by a team of men
Speaker 1: who probably don't know any women, and you know, no
Speaker 1: sense of like what a woman is going to want
Speaker 1: from a game like this, right, And so we know
Speaker 1: that things are better when women are are included and
Speaker 1: valued and supported and championed. And it makes me sad
Speaker 1: that the gaming industry just can't get it together to
Speaker 1: you know, reflect that reality. You know. The biggest question
Speaker 1: to me is like, if you are a company that
Speaker 1: wants to grow and truly are looking to make money,
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you want more people? If you all, do
Speaker 1: you really want to just cater for half the population
Speaker 1: when you can have the whole population? Hello, I really
Speaker 1: think they hate women that much. Honestly, I don't think
Speaker 1: they want them in their audience. And I say that
Speaker 1: as someone who loves games, and I played plenty of
Speaker 1: games made by women who were great and really inclusive,
Speaker 1: and I played games made by men that are great
Speaker 1: and really inclusive. But I feel like the industry at
Speaker 1: a whole, especially this like console gaming level, they are
Speaker 1: so resistant to it, and they're just like I think
Speaker 1: they don't like, they don't want women in their audience
Speaker 1: because they think it will mean the value of their products.
Speaker 1: And I think also they're so afraid of pissing off.
Speaker 1: They're very angry because This is another note I want
Speaker 1: to make. When they harass you, it's like threats to
Speaker 1: kill you are rape you. It's not like, right, hey,
Speaker 1: you suck. It's like I'm going to find your address
Speaker 1: and send it to people like right, it's scary. It
Speaker 1: jumps to this, I'm going to rape you, unharm you
Speaker 1: in a way that I know it is going to
Speaker 1: violate you and make you know that I'm a man, right,
Speaker 1: which is in a self whole level that honestly, all
Speaker 1: of this just again kind of talks about when when
Speaker 1: you were talking about this industry in general, about being
Speaker 1: a fat club or a good old boy club. And
Speaker 1: I see that continuously when you see the higher ups
Speaker 1: being just friends of theirs coming up with the same
Speaker 1: damn attitude that may have a lesser record or the
Speaker 1: lesser known record than the previous person, which is so like,
Speaker 1: then you're just fostering once again more of this nastiness
Speaker 1: that you are saying you want to prevent. Now, Oh,
Speaker 1: I completely agree, it's such it's such a vicious toxic cycle.
Speaker 1: I don't actually know if I believe that some of
Speaker 1: these places can be reformed or improved without massive structural changes,
Speaker 1: like reading the Blizzard statement where they're like, oh, we're
Speaker 1: bringing in a counselor, or we're bringing in uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we're gonna do more training. I don't think that these
Speaker 1: men need to be trained to know that signing your
Speaker 1: emails one is not professional. I don't I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's going to cut it. I
Speaker 1: don't think that like a training is going to be
Speaker 1: the thing to to, you know, help men in this
Speaker 1: company understand that crawling into your female coworkers office all
Speaker 1: drunk to harass her is not acceptable workplace behavior. And
Speaker 1: so I'm really curious if this can all be improved.
Speaker 1: But it sounds to me so toxic from the very
Speaker 1: very top, you know, the CEO, to the guys who
Speaker 1: are playing the games threatening to murder you, and the
Speaker 1: platforms being like that's okay, that is that is you know,
Speaker 1: if that that's part of gameplay. If you don't want
Speaker 1: to be involved in that, don't play the game. Like
Speaker 1: there are just so many levels to how bad it
Speaker 1: is that it can be very dismaying. And I do
Speaker 1: wonder too, like when you talk about them saying we're
Speaker 1: gonna bring in counselors, We're going to teach these tactics
Speaker 1: and we're gonn to talk about you know, workplace safety
Speaker 1: and all this. But I'm like, who are you really
Speaker 1: keeping safe? If the people that have made this place
Speaker 1: unsafe still exists there, then who are you truly keeping safest?
Speaker 1: Not the victims. The victims have to be there with them.
Speaker 1: The victims who have been threatened by these people, are
Speaker 1: harassed by these people, are continually told, you know, all
Speaker 1: of these nasty comments by these people, and all you're
Speaker 1: doing is keeping them there, those perpetrators, And you're like,
Speaker 1: but we're gonna help them and spend money on them.
Speaker 1: Who are you keeping safe? And that's that's like a
Speaker 1: common thing up and down tech that I cannot stand
Speaker 1: where even when somebody is like confirmed to be a
Speaker 1: harasser or an abuser, or you know, somebody who has
Speaker 1: abused their power, a lot of times these companies will
Speaker 1: go out of their way to praise them or give
Speaker 1: them like lucrative exit packages on the way out the door.
Speaker 1: And it makes me like, boils my blood. It enrages me. So.
Speaker 1: A former Blizzard technology chief Ben Kilgore, was fired in
Speaker 1: after an investigation into most able allegations of sexual harassment.
Speaker 1: But he was thanked quote for his many contributions over
Speaker 1: the last four and a half years in an email
Speaker 1: by his then boss. And what kind of messages that
Speaker 1: send somebody who is fired for sexual harassment? Uh not,
Speaker 1: Like clearly the company it was like, okay, these you
Speaker 1: know this happened, we have to take action to fire him.
Speaker 1: Is really necessary to praise him on the way out?
Speaker 1: And what kind of signal do you think that is
Speaker 1: sending to the people that he harassed and the people
Speaker 1: who have to work there after he leaves. Yeah, yep,
Speaker 1: I get some extra money and he did a great job.
Speaker 1: Just ignore all that other stuff. Is cool. And this
Speaker 1: was like in the face of wasn't it thirty employees
Speaker 1: saying that they had experienced some type of harassment? That's right.
Speaker 1: Female employees in their E sports department sent an email
Speaker 1: to department head saying that they had been subject to
Speaker 1: unwanted touching, to meeting comments, exclusion from important meetings, and
Speaker 1: unsolicited remarks about their appearance. And again, uh, Cochick was
Speaker 1: aware of this email because he was one of the
Speaker 1: people who got this email, and so him saying publicly
Speaker 1: like I'm not aware of any of these obligations. I've
Speaker 1: never seen anything like this in my company. Blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: It's just a lie. It's a way to save face,
Speaker 1: and it to me makes it seem as though the
Speaker 1: company is not really invested in or interested in cleaning
Speaker 1: any of this up. They're interested in making a pr
Speaker 1: problem go away and interested in, uh making shareholders feel
Speaker 1: good and feel, you know, like the company is in
Speaker 1: good hands. I don't think they actually care about the
Speaker 1: fact that they're they're people in their employee are are
Speaker 1: going through this just to do their jobs. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I totally agree, and I feel like a lot of it,
Speaker 1: to me gives the vibe of like really actually wanting
Speaker 1: to hold on to this culture and the way they've
Speaker 1: been able to treat women and believing in so far
Speaker 1: very unfortun nearly it seems that it's working, but that
Speaker 1: people will just forget it and move on. That's not
Speaker 1: to say the employees haven't been really especially lately like
Speaker 1: coming together and speaking out, which is amazing and I
Speaker 1: really appreciate it and I know how hard that is, um,
Speaker 1: But yeah, I I've felt like their whole thing is
Speaker 1: at least the higher ups are like I'd want to
Speaker 1: continue as is. Let's just way put to blow over.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be fine. Yeah, And you know, to your
Speaker 1: point about it seems like they want to keep this culture.
Speaker 1: You said something earlier that kind of sparks something in
Speaker 1: my mind, which is, we know that the most extreme
Speaker 1: violent gamer dudes out there are like pretty scary and
Speaker 1: pretty like I guess, very into the things that they're into,
Speaker 1: and we've seen before when that when those when folks
Speaker 1: like that feel like something that they are entitled to
Speaker 1: is taken away from them. You know, there are so
Speaker 1: many different instances and pop culture. When they made a
Speaker 1: reboot of Ghostbusters with women, like, they're taking Ghostbusters away
Speaker 1: from me. When Star Wars cast women and people of color,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this institution that is mine is being
Speaker 1: taken away from me. Part of me wonders if they
Speaker 1: feel like they don't want to make significant changes to
Speaker 1: this toxic, misogynistic culture precisely because they want their core
Speaker 1: the people that they're thinking of as their core user base,
Speaker 1: They want them to feel like, yeah, this toxic soup
Speaker 1: of culture that we've created here is still yours, Like
Speaker 1: like no one is coming to like wocify your video
Speaker 1: games at Blizzard, like we will continue to foster misogyny
Speaker 1: and extremism and violence. That's a guarantee, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Right, Yeah, No, I think there is something
Speaker 1: too that I think there is some kind of like
Speaker 1: wink wink thing happening of like uh to their very angry,
Speaker 1: generally white male player base. You know, we're not going
Speaker 1: to give in to these feminists or these social justice warriors,
Speaker 1: like you know, we'll say something out loud, we'll do
Speaker 1: like a publicity thing, but between us, it's gonna be fine.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna mess with anything, and we're going to
Speaker 1: keep providing you just for you the entertainment and as
Speaker 1: long as women are quiet and know their role and
Speaker 1: they can come in. But otherwise they're not welcome here.
Speaker 1: They have any problem with that, they can just leave.
Speaker 1: Oh exactly exactly, any problem at all, Like, well, then leave,
Speaker 1: It's fine, Samantha does I I have one of my
Speaker 1: favorite games that came out recently, The Last of Us Too,
Speaker 1: had featured a woman in the main role. Mostly women
Speaker 1: game or dudes hated it. They hated it, and they
Speaker 1: sent like death threats to all the voice actors, all
Speaker 1: the creators. So it's not just like it's the player.
Speaker 1: It's impacting the player, but it's also impacting like companies
Speaker 1: and games that are trying to show these other stories,
Speaker 1: and that's just another way of silencing and and keeping
Speaker 1: it like no, it has to look this way and
Speaker 1: very gate kept, and and if so, you will receive
Speaker 1: a death threat. Like it's just very it's a very
Speaker 1: toxic space in a lot of ways. It makes me
Speaker 1: so sad that, you know, companies like Activision are so
Speaker 1: big that they really can, like what they do can
Speaker 1: dictate the rest of the industry. And like you said,
Speaker 1: it's a top down thing. And so we're talking to
Speaker 1: voice talent, we're talking designers, we're talking women who write
Speaker 1: about games. Were like, the the impact that it can
Speaker 1: have when a major player cultivates this kind of toxicity
Speaker 1: and massage, Andy, I think it really knows no bounds.
Speaker 1: And I'm really hurting to see staffers, you know, speaking up,
Speaker 1: folks within the company speaking up. Members Having teenth, a
Speaker 1: group of shareholders led by Union pension group the s
Speaker 1: o C Investment Group, called for the resignation of Activision
Speaker 1: CEO Bobby kotick Um and the retirement of two other
Speaker 1: members of the board UM. And the letter was also
Speaker 1: signed by you know, various kind of investment groups which
Speaker 1: focus on supporting women across industries and UM the like.
Speaker 1: Rank and file staff themselves are really speaking up, trying
Speaker 1: to get QUO tick to resign. UM advocacy group a
Speaker 1: b K Workers Alliance recently published a document signed by
Speaker 1: five employees calling for Coote's removal s CEO UM. They said,
Speaker 1: we the undersigned no longer have confidence in the leadership
Speaker 1: of Bobby Kotick, a CEO of Activision, and they walked
Speaker 1: out in mass to to protest this. And I know
Speaker 1: that that is not easy. It's not easy to speak
Speaker 1: up in a company like this where it's already been
Speaker 1: documented that retaliation is a thing that happens. And so
Speaker 1: kudos to these employees who were doing that, but it
Speaker 1: seems like we're right now. Unfortunately the board is sticking
Speaker 1: with this CEO. You know, they said that they have
Speaker 1: confidence in him. And I think this is where things
Speaker 1: get a little bit business e because at a certain point,
Speaker 1: you know, you have these investors and shareholders in your company,
Speaker 1: and it's like I can understand why this guy's leadership
Speaker 1: is not inspiring confidence in your investment in this in
Speaker 1: this company. And it's like, like, I agree with you
Speaker 1: that they're thought they're doing some sort of wink wink
Speaker 1: not non thing, but I think that they are. They
Speaker 1: should be beholden to their stakeholders and the staff who
Speaker 1: have to deal with this environment that they're cultivating. And
Speaker 1: it's like, I guess, I wonder where when does any
Speaker 1: kind of accountability come in, Like who are you accountable to?
Speaker 1: And if not now when? Yeah? And I think that
Speaker 1: was one of the most galling things for the employees
Speaker 1: but also people who uh just been watching the situation
Speaker 1: is that they seems so out of touch with the
Speaker 1: statements they released after the walkout, like they clearly were
Speaker 1: kind of like not getting the point or purposefully skirting
Speaker 1: around the point. And then like there's a whole you know,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to go into right now. But there was
Speaker 1: a woman who was in charge of like the White
Speaker 1: House communications during Bush and the Iraq War. She was
Speaker 1: in charge of the women's gaming board there of like
Speaker 1: making sure that their voices were heard, and she was
Speaker 1: like she tweeted something that was called the problem with
Speaker 1: the whistleblowing while all this was happening. Okay, so you're
Speaker 1: not really listening to us. Cool, cool, and like we've
Speaker 1: gone over some names already, but they were already Like
Speaker 1: those are not the only names of men at this
Speaker 1: company that I've done really horrible things. Yeah, so it is,
Speaker 1: like like you said, and it is. It feels very
Speaker 1: overwhelming and it's so frustrating. I think we recently did
Speaker 1: an episode where there's a new survey came out, some
Speaker 1: new research came out and showed that like, over the
Speaker 1: past ten years, the situation has actually gotten worse, um
Speaker 1: in terms of representation in video games. I think this
Speaker 1: was specifically characters and storylines and stuff. But that's it.
Speaker 1: Just it does feel like a lot and it feels
Speaker 1: like we are making a lot of progress, and I'm
Speaker 1: happy to see people speaking up about it. God we're
Speaker 1: talking about it. But yeah, it's with so much work
Speaker 1: to be done, absolutely, and I think, you know, it's
Speaker 1: sad that it doesn't seem like a lot us improving.
Speaker 1: This month, the Anti Defamation League released a new study
Speaker 1: that shows that of young gamers experienced abuse or harassment
Speaker 1: while playing games, five out of six adults ages eighteen
Speaker 1: to forty five experienced harassment and online multiplayer games, representing
Speaker 1: eighty million adult gamers. Three out of five young people
Speaker 1: that age thirteen to seventeen experienced harassment and online multiplayer games,
Speaker 1: and seventy one of adult online multiplayer gamers experienced severe abuse,
Speaker 1: including physical threats, stalking, and sustained harassment. So precisely the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that you were talking about dealing with
Speaker 1: when you were playing in these kinds of games, and
Speaker 1: again not surprising, the largest increases in identity based harassment
Speaker 1: occurred among adult respondents identified as women, black or African
Speaker 1: American and Asian American. And so it's just bad. It
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like a like a safe environment. And I
Speaker 1: think given that so many young people are having formative
Speaker 1: experiences in these environments, these companies owe it to them
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to foster safety and actual
Speaker 1: community in the gameplay experience, but also in the in
Speaker 1: the companies, in the boardrooms where these games get made.
Speaker 1: Like it all at all to me is kind of
Speaker 1: one big bucket. And I really think like the industry
Speaker 1: has got to make some very very big changes if
Speaker 1: anything is going to get better. Yeah, and I would
Speaker 1: like to add on here because I think sometimes this
Speaker 1: gets lost in this discussion. But you know, you hear
Speaker 1: in the media all the time like video games are
Speaker 1: bad for your braid or might cause violence, especially just
Speaker 1: a lot of says that show, um they can help
Speaker 1: with things like PTSD, they can they have positive impacts.
Speaker 1: And I know listeners have written in and said, you know,
Speaker 1: for one reason or the other, I have social anxiety
Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be, and I really found
Speaker 1: this online community and it was so important for me,
Speaker 1: and this gaming was so important for me and in
Speaker 1: helping with whatever it is. And so like, all of
Speaker 1: this is bad and we should fix it. But I
Speaker 1: also does have like real as I feel like we
Speaker 1: always make this point, and I think it's always important
Speaker 1: to make, but there's real world impacts of these things
Speaker 1: on your health and on your the communities you can form,
Speaker 1: and even how you feel about yourself. Um So I
Speaker 1: do think, yeah, this is really really important conversation, right,
Speaker 1: And I just want to add this because I was
Speaker 1: looking it up. I wanted to see as you were
Speaker 1: talking about the board of supporting uh CO check and
Speaker 1: I'm like, so, how many women are on the board.
Speaker 1: There's two one just recently, so not surprising, But then
Speaker 1: on top of that a new article saying that their
Speaker 1: solution instead of having him resign is to do a
Speaker 1: new committee, uh does a workplace responsibility committee and they're
Speaker 1: going to watch over the workplace and then talk to
Speaker 1: the directors who co take us a part of He's
Speaker 1: a director on those board. So we're like, wait, they're
Speaker 1: not even looking at Why are they looking so far
Speaker 1: right when this the problem is right in front of
Speaker 1: them and this is their solution. Fantastic way to not
Speaker 1: read the room, guys, Way will not read the room.
Speaker 1: It's the other title for this episode. Third, It's like,
Speaker 1: I honestly think like parting ways with their CEO is
Speaker 1: like the least they can do spending more money and
Speaker 1: more time and more investment in like creating these kind
Speaker 1: of bs toothless committees to do nothing. I think it's
Speaker 1: just it just shows how how they're not meaningfully interested
Speaker 1: in like actual change. It's just like like a band aid.
Speaker 1: And I've even a good band aid at that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's literally like, hey, they have told you what the
Speaker 1: problem is, this is the problem. Why are you doing
Speaker 1: non work to be like, oh we we don't know
Speaker 1: what the problem is. We're gonna we're gonna put another
Speaker 1: committee when they're like, no, it's clear there's a petition.
Speaker 1: They've told you what could help just resolve what? Yeah,
Speaker 1: don't y'all read the Wall Street Journal, because there's a
Speaker 1: whole thing in here about what what's going on, Like
Speaker 1: safer money is by paper. I mean, this is the obvious.
Speaker 1: When you were talking to Annie of like, oh, no, okay,
Speaker 1: we're just gonna pretend like we don't want to understand
Speaker 1: it is sweeping under the rug. Then on, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I have so many thoughts on this. Oh my, um,
Speaker 1: but we should wrap it up for now. Thank you
Speaker 1: as always, Ridget for coming Where could the good listeners
Speaker 1: find you? Thank you for having me. This is always
Speaker 1: such a treat. If you're interested in more discussions on
Speaker 1: the Internet technology and how women and people who identify
Speaker 1: as women show up no spaces, you can check out
Speaker 1: my podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet. We
Speaker 1: just did a really interesting couple episodes all up out
Speaker 1: the Astro a world tragedy in Houston, so some truly
Speaker 1: uh wild conspiracy theories coming out of there. So we
Speaker 1: have a really interesting episode with our researcher debunking them,
Speaker 1: so please check it out and you can follow me
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Bridget Murray or on Instagram at Bridget
Speaker 1: Murray in d C. Yes, and definitely do that if
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