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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production

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Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Two weeks ago, the Wall Street Journal dropped a new

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Speaker 1: report detailing new allegations of sexual harassment, misogyny, and toxic

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Speaker 1: sexism from the leadership at Activision Blizzard, the company behind

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Speaker 1: games like Candy Crush, Call of Duty, and World of

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Speaker 1: Warcraft and one of the largest and most influential gaming

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Speaker 1: companies in the world. I joined my friends Samantha and

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Speaker 1: Annie at the podcast stuff Mom Never told you to

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Speaker 1: dig into what we know about how video game companies

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Speaker 1: fail women and why it matters for all of us.

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Speaker 1: And if you're a gamer, I want to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: What is your experience as a gamer? Bent like, have

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Speaker 1: you ever faced harassment while gaming? After you listen to

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Speaker 1: the episode, let us know at Hello at tangodi dot com. Hey,

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Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to Stephane

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Speaker 1: never told your production of iHeart Radio. Today we are

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Speaker 1: once again joined by our good friend and the amazing,

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Speaker 1: wonderful Bridget Todd. Thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Bridget Oh, thanks for having me. Y'all always give me

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Speaker 1: the most warm welcomes. I love the intros because they're

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Speaker 1: so happy to love you. We are so excited to

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Speaker 1: have you. Yes, so Bridget, do you have any fun

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Speaker 1: things on the horizon, any plans coming up? Yes? Well,

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Speaker 1: the most fun things I have on the horizon is

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Speaker 1: that my partner and I do this thing every holiday

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Speaker 1: season that we call weirdo Christmas, and we actually hope

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Speaker 1: I think that everybody should should try it out. We're

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Speaker 1: no Christmas is an activity that we do where after Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 1: but before Christmas, we go on our own little solo

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Speaker 1: trip just sort of, you know, half fun before the

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Speaker 1: official holiday season, and we bring costumes and lights and

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Speaker 1: just have a weird time. And it's just a fun

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Speaker 1: way to sort of if you're if you're from a

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Speaker 1: traditional family that does Christmas in a very traditional way,

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Speaker 1: can this be a fun way to counterbalance that? So

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Speaker 1: weirdo Christmas coming up? Very excited? Oh? I love it.

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Speaker 1: What kind of costumes you got? Planned? Mind? The last

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Speaker 1: time I but we did this, I wore a fur

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Speaker 1: hat and a fur vest and fur boots. It was

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Speaker 1: like a fur theme. Double down on the fur again

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Speaker 1: into yeah, I encourage people to like whatever you know,

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Speaker 1: your weirdness looks like, just because people are like weirdos

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Speaker 1: or non traditionalist doesn't mean that we can't also enjoy

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Speaker 1: like holiday cheer and festivity and so um. I used

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Speaker 1: to always feel a little alienated around Christmas time, you know,

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Speaker 1: I felt like if I wasn't doing something super traditional

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Speaker 1: around the holidays, and like you basically didn't have any

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Speaker 1: way to celebrate. And that's not true, because you can

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Speaker 1: all celebrate your Christmas. I love this. Yeah, I will

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Speaker 1: say like, as a person who does not love the

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Speaker 1: holidays in general, doing something completely off the cuff, it

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Speaker 1: sounds better, especially if you can establish it yourself, I

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Speaker 1: will say eighty And I seem to do kind of

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Speaker 1: that for New Year's where we dress up as something random,

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Speaker 1: like I have a couple of onesies that I like

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Speaker 1: to put on, and we will cheers each other through

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Speaker 1: whether it's like us pictures or text, but we're wearing

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Speaker 1: costumes usually. I don't know why, we just kind of

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Speaker 1: like we give up on going out, let's do this instead.

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Speaker 1: I think it's because New Year's is such a I've

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Speaker 1: had great New Year's, but generally I feel like the

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Speaker 1: pressure is very intense and it's always a mess, and

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Speaker 1: so I was kind of like, I want to stay in.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to read my fan fiction. And then it

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Speaker 1: became we'll wear onesies and drink champagne at midnight and

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Speaker 1: cheer it's each other. See. I love that because just

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Speaker 1: because you're not somebody who is interested in spending hundreds

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Speaker 1: of dollars to have a you know, less than stellar

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Speaker 1: night on New Year's Eve, doesn't mean that you should

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Speaker 1: get to miss out on like New Year's Eve holiday merriment.

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Speaker 1: Like that's exactly this in the spirit of weirdo Christmas,

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Speaker 1: that you should, like not wanting to do the traditional

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Speaker 1: thing that everybody does doesn't mean that you should just

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Speaker 1: be boxed out of getting to, you know, have festivity

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Speaker 1: in merriment. So I like this, we need to we

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Speaker 1: need to roll in. We'll do We're no Christmas, We're

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Speaker 1: no New Year's hopefully well this calendar going, yes there,

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Speaker 1: we want to be a Google calendar, let's go. I

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Speaker 1: love it. I think we should sell one. So I

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Speaker 1: also wanted to before we dive into this topic, which

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Speaker 1: I'm both very excited and very like anxious slash nervous

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Speaker 1: slash angry to talk about I wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm a very big gamer. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of the listeners know that always played video games, and

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Speaker 1: I've always played, in quotes traditional video games, being like

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Speaker 1: Nintendo Supernintendo PlayStation, like those kind of console video games,

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Speaker 1: and I have a lot of history and experience with that.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to ask the both of you what

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Speaker 1: your experience with gaming at large, not just console gaming is.

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Speaker 1: I've always thought that was the one of the coolest

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Speaker 1: things about you, Annie, is how into console game and

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Speaker 1: you are. I wish that I was. I aspired to be.

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Speaker 1: I don't really play much these days. When I was younger,

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Speaker 1: I really liked the world of Warcraft. Going back even further,

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Speaker 1: I was very much into like Super Nintendo when the

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Speaker 1: when the pandemic first started, we got one of those

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Speaker 1: I guess what you an emulator, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you call it, but like to be able to play

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Speaker 1: old Sega games and old Supernintendo games on our TV.

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Speaker 1: And I remember I was like, oh my gosh, how

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Speaker 1: much I loved, how much I loved and was obsessed

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Speaker 1: with those growing up. But these days not not so much.

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Speaker 1: I'm so curious, say on what your relationship to daming

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Speaker 1: has looked like. Um, I would be the boomer who

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Speaker 1: did not understand and does not understand these games, to

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Speaker 1: the point that I still ask both Annie and my

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Speaker 1: partner like, Okay, so the point of this game is

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Speaker 1: A B C D and then just sit there and

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Speaker 1: look at them puzzled. I do this a lot because

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Speaker 1: I still have to ask, especially when it comes to

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Speaker 1: console games, a lot of questions. I never really grew

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Speaker 1: into that really cared about it much growing up. I

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Speaker 1: did buy a switch during the pandemic because I was like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I can play these games. So these games being Mario Party,

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Speaker 1: where essentially it's just kind of a chance, and I

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Speaker 1: get very mad at everyone about it because they all cheat.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure Mario Kart. Same thing. I do like

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Speaker 1: to announce how many times I fall off, because again

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Speaker 1: I don't quite understand the buttons. Uh. Same thing with

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Speaker 1: any of those kind of things. But I do enjoy

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Speaker 1: to an extent until I'm frustrated that I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what y'all are doing. You keep telling me

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Speaker 1: to push, but this us in this that doesn't make

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Speaker 1: sense my fingers don't do this. So that's how I

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Speaker 1: feel about those games. But I've tried, I've got I've

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Speaker 1: grown to like them more and more. But I am

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Speaker 1: more of a phone game person, and I always have.

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Speaker 1: I did really enjoy I guess the really first big

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Speaker 1: game that I played, and I know we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about them, was Candy Crush that has

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Speaker 1: since been taken off to make room for games that

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Speaker 1: are the puzzle games that have a narrative in it,

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Speaker 1: and and we've talked about it previously on a Monday

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Speaker 1: Minty because those damn ads that we talked about that

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Speaker 1: has those dramatic leaving somebody cheating on somebody murdering somebody.

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Speaker 1: Apparently um had really reeled me into being like, what

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Speaker 1: is this game? I need to know? And to the

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Speaker 1: point that I've tried to reel Annie in on at

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Speaker 1: least one we talked about Lily's Garden and uh, Bridget,

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Speaker 1: if you have a chance, I need you to play

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Speaker 1: this game as well. The phone not a sponsor and

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Speaker 1: it was created by a woman, So the woman did

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Speaker 1: this whole game, and she did all of the programming

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Speaker 1: behind it, and you can kind of tell by the

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Speaker 1: relationships in it. So I'm like, huh, it is definitely

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Speaker 1: different than the other games where it's just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this girl looks like your typical white sorority girl who

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Speaker 1: has all these stereotypes attached to her talking to a

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Speaker 1: cute white boy. That's this This one is a little different.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, well, and now I'm really caught

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Speaker 1: up in it. So that is my gaming expertise. And

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Speaker 1: Annie had to tell me that this was gaming because

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, I don't. I don't what. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what you're talking about. I just stay on

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Speaker 1: my phone. Yes, I mean, that's so funny. Where do

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Speaker 1: you think this idea that playing of you if you

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Speaker 1: like quote just play on your phone, that you're not

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Speaker 1: actually gaming? Like, where did that attitude come from? I

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Speaker 1: think it came from Let's see if I can condense this.

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Speaker 1: So in the eighties, toys were gendered, and video games

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Speaker 1: were coming out at that time, and they got put

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Speaker 1: into boys toys because the marketers at the time thought

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Speaker 1: um that they would have more success in that category.

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Speaker 1: It fit more into that category, and so it became

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Speaker 1: a like boys arena, and therefore, like any girl entering

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Speaker 1: into that space, and I speak from experience, was seen

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Speaker 1: as sort of like an anomaly and like, why are

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Speaker 1: you coming in here? This is like are you trying

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Speaker 1: to trick us into thinking that you're good? Or look

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Speaker 1: how cute she thinks she can do this, or like

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Speaker 1: once you get older, are you trying to get a date?

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Speaker 1: And so I think it became a very like boys space,

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Speaker 1: and so that became serious gaming. And so when phone

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Speaker 1: games came out and everybody who had a phone had

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Speaker 1: more access to it, and especially women were coming in

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Speaker 1: and playing, that became like, that's frivolous gaming. That is

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Speaker 1: not gaming. I I being the boy who was growing

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Speaker 1: up with this. Um, I am the c as gamer

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Speaker 1: and this is what gaming is. I think it's another

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Speaker 1: example of gate keeping around that that makes me so sad.

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Speaker 1: It is very tragical. I will say, I am in

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Speaker 1: level three thousand something. Look at this, this is a

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Speaker 1: pro We got a pro on here. You should demand

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Speaker 1: respect so that this is what I do rather than

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Speaker 1: spending time with people. Well, and just to add to

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Speaker 1: that before we get into this, for a long time,

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Speaker 1: the kind of running commentary around this has been most

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Speaker 1: gamers are men. But when you add in phone games

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Speaker 1: like games in my opinion, but yes, phone games, then

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Speaker 1: it does you towards women. But as in the last

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Speaker 1: two years, I believe even quote serious gaming or console gaming,

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Speaker 1: more women play than men. So I think we really

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Speaker 1: got to reframe our thoughts around what a gamer looks like. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: And I think it really speaks to sort of the

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Speaker 1: dark arts of marketing. You see this all over tech,

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Speaker 1: where the demographic that is being marketed to and thus

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Speaker 1: sort of creating this perception of they're the main the

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Speaker 1: biggest demographic like that that has done so much bad

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Speaker 1: stuff in terms of making these different industries and across

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Speaker 1: technology look like who is who actually makes them up?

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Speaker 1: Like who is actually in them? And so even while

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Speaker 1: women are are making up this lie and share of

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Speaker 1: people who are gaming, marketing still would have you believe

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Speaker 1: that that's not true, right, whether we the way that

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Speaker 1: we are, perceptions of it is still so warped and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't actually you know, align with the reality of

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Speaker 1: who is actually in this demographic, right, And I think

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Speaker 1: even in the games that are getting made and how

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Speaker 1: women are portrayed in a lot of those games, they

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Speaker 1: would very much lead you to believe that men are

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Speaker 1: the intended audience and the preferred audience. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: what you brought today, bridget as infuriating as it is

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Speaker 1: very important to talk about and really ongoing situation, which

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Speaker 1: is what is going on with Activision Blizzard. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you grounded this and the idea

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Speaker 1: that it is ongoing. This is a current conversation. Uh

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Speaker 1: the first came on my radar over the summer m

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Speaker 1: but it is completely ongoing and just last week, you know,

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Speaker 1: new updates in it. So essentially, the gaming company, Activision Blizzard,

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Speaker 1: they're under fire for allegations the company has fostered a

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Speaker 1: really toxic workplace where their women's staffers are mistreated and

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Speaker 1: harassed and I'm just not treated equally. And last week

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Speaker 1: new reporting from the Wall Street Journal has really shed

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Speaker 1: new light on these allegations. And you know, last week

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Speaker 1: the staff has been mobilizing, they had to walk out.

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Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, when we think about

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Speaker 1: different arenas and technology, some some people who don't game

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Speaker 1: might be listening with this and think like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: big deal, who cares, But particularly as more and more

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Speaker 1: young people are finding themselves on online worlds and online

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Speaker 1: platforms built by by, you know, gaming companies. It is

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Speaker 1: really important to think through like how are these how

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Speaker 1: are these games where so many young people are spending

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Speaker 1: their time, how do they come to be? What kind

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Speaker 1: of cultures are they coming up in? UM? And so

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Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why I think this this

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Speaker 1: story is such a big deal. Activision Blizzard is also

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Speaker 1: just a big deal as a company. There are a

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Speaker 1: major gaming company. They produce Candy Crush, Call of Duty, Overwatch,

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Speaker 1: in the world of Warcraft, so major games, and uh,

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Speaker 1: it's probably I think it's I think it in at

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Speaker 1: least it was the biggest gaming company in both the

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Speaker 1: United States and Europe. So like, not only is it

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Speaker 1: an important story in terms of the culture these games

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Speaker 1: are being produced in, it's also a major business story

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Speaker 1: because we're talking huge global companies and the climates that

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Speaker 1: these big companies foster can really make a difference in

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Speaker 1: the industry and like what the industry is Like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're they're hugely influential. They make like billions and billions

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Speaker 1: of dollars, and yeah, having such a big player in

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Speaker 1: that space does ripple out and impact all these other

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Speaker 1: UM players in that space, and I know, like I've

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Speaker 1: read some of the stories of people women who have

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Speaker 1: worked at these companies and it's just terrific And to

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Speaker 1: like have them be so excited because they grew up

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Speaker 1: playing games or they it was really important to them

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Speaker 1: and to be so excited to get this opportunity, and

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Speaker 1: then it's just awful the amount of harassment, uh they faced,

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Speaker 1: which have started coming out over the past few years,

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Speaker 1: right yeah, so um. There was a two year investigation

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Speaker 1: but concluded in July. The California Department of Fair Employment

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Speaker 1: and Housing felt a lawsuit over the summer alleging sexual discrimination, harassment,

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Speaker 1: and like a general kind of frat boy culture at

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Speaker 1: ACT division Lizard and the investigation down that the company

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Speaker 1: discriminated against female employees in both arms and conditions of employment, um,

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Speaker 1: including compensation, assignment, promotion, in termination, and that company leadership

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Speaker 1: consistently failed to take steps to prevent discrimination, harassment, and retaliation.

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Speaker 1: And like you were saying when you get into some

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Speaker 1: of the specific stories of the kinds of things that

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Speaker 1: went on here, Like one of the allegations that was

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Speaker 1: made was that the men at the company would often

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Speaker 1: do these things called cube crawls, in which male employees

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Speaker 1: would drink copious amounts of alcohol as they crawl their

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Speaker 1: way through various cubicles in the office and engage in

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Speaker 1: inappropriate behavior towards female employees. Like, imagine if that was

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Speaker 1: just the thing that happened in your workplace, right that, Oh,

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Speaker 1: just it's Thursday. Obviously the male staffers are all gonna

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Speaker 1: get really drunk and crawl on their hands and knees

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Speaker 1: into my office and harass me while I'm trying to work.

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Speaker 1: Like some of the allegations are that have come out

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Speaker 1: are just so horrifying, and it's like, I can just

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Speaker 1: just like what you were saying. I can imagine being

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Speaker 1: so excited to work at a company that is so

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Speaker 1: influent menial in the gaming space and then get there

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Speaker 1: and be like, oh, actually I have to put up

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Speaker 1: with the most degrading behavior just to do my job here. Right.

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Speaker 1: It sends a really clear message of whether like the

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Speaker 1: company culture and who belongs and who doesn't, and like

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Speaker 1: what the kind of status quo how they view you

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Speaker 1: is someone who it's okay to her ask like your

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Speaker 1: job is not important um or that you are kind

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Speaker 1: of that outlier that you know, why are you here.

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Speaker 1: Is it to get a man or to just for

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Speaker 1: us to to kind of all go and harass at

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Speaker 1: your job? Okay, I'm thinking like, I wonder how much

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Speaker 1: it took for them to even get an interview to

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Speaker 1: go through how and we've talked about how in general,

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Speaker 1: women when they apply for anything, they have to be

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Speaker 1: sure like they are qualify before they even attempt it,

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Speaker 1: so making sure that they are able to prove that

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Speaker 1: they can work there, and then going through all of

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Speaker 1: a who's because they have to do so much more

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Speaker 1: than men typically, and within a business like this, you

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Speaker 1: have to do even more to prove that you are

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Speaker 1: worthy and knowledgeable of these things, and then coming into

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Speaker 1: their and being dismissed as if you were an intern.

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Speaker 1: Not that intern should be treated this way either, but

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Speaker 1: essentially as if you're coming to learn instead of being

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Speaker 1: a professional and be like, hey, I'm here, and then

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Speaker 1: watching this nonsense like I would. That makes me want

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Speaker 1: to throw things. For Yes, it's curiating, and there are

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Speaker 1: some of the details coming out. I'm just like, wow,

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Speaker 1: somebody somewhere thought this is acceptable, like um. In one example,

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Speaker 1: an Activision employee had for years just signed his email

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Speaker 1: signature on all and you know in this in this

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal podcast that broke these broke these new allegations,

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Speaker 1: she makes this good point. You know, so if you're

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Speaker 1: a woman, you would get an email and just be like,

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Speaker 1: this is normal. It is normal to get an email

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Speaker 1: that has this sign off. And then to make things worse,

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Speaker 1: this employee worked there for a month, right, Like, they

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Speaker 1: took a month for them to fire this employee, and

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Speaker 1: they had an investigation, and we're gonna be it's like,

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Speaker 1: what was there even to investigate investigation? Even look like

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Speaker 1: you're like right there, here's the email. Either go ahead

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Speaker 1: and discipline them, or why are we waiting a month? Right? Um?

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Speaker 1: And then like the saddest thing is this is pretty sad.

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Speaker 1: So like, if you're someone who you know it has

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Speaker 1: has a difficult time talking about suicide, I'm sorry to

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Speaker 1: proport that this is something that happened. Um. The suit

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Speaker 1: also points that a female Activision employee died by suicide

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Speaker 1: while on a company trip with her male supervisor. The

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Speaker 1: employee had been subjected to intense sexual harassment prior to

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Speaker 1: her death, including having nude photos of her passed around

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Speaker 1: at a company holiday party and you know, I think

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Speaker 1: that just really underscores the seriousness of what was going

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Speaker 1: on and the seriousness of the of the toxic culture

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Speaker 1: that was happening at Activision that somebody died by suicide

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Speaker 1: with in regards to it, Yeah, yeah, and and because

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Speaker 1: as we said, this is ongoing, like it's not like

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Speaker 1: something happened something tragic like this happened and then they

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Speaker 1: fixed it. It was, oh, you know, we've known this

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Speaker 1: has been going on. This is sort of the accepted culture.

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Speaker 1: Let's move on from this. And that's been one of

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Speaker 1: the most frustrating, Like all of it's really upsetting, but

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Speaker 1: that's been one of the most frustrating things is it's

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Speaker 1: like all of these instances over and over and over,

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Speaker 1: and it seems that they just really could care less.

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Speaker 1: They're like, all right, let's just wait for this publicity

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Speaker 1: to blow over. They'll be fine, and we'll continue as

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Speaker 1: as we've done, and that's acceptable to them. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: is the message that I think they're putting out. I think,

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Speaker 1: just just like you, when I heard about this employee

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Speaker 1: who died by suicide, I thought, certainly this will be this,

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Speaker 1: Like it's obvious to anyone that big chain is are necessary,

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Speaker 1: a change in leadership, a change in culture. This is

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Speaker 1: not the kind of thing that I think training or

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00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 1: you know, bringing in a counselor is going to help.

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Speaker 1: And then I was really surprised to see that, you know,

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Speaker 1: initially the company was saying, like, these reports aren't true.

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Speaker 1: It just showed it just showed me that they weren't

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Speaker 1: taking it very seriously. So when these allegations first surfaced

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Speaker 1: in the summer activision, CEO Bobby Cootick he denied the allegations,

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Speaker 1: saying that the lawsuit allegations were inaccurate, adding that the

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Speaker 1: picture that the lawsuit paints is not the Blizzard workplace

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Speaker 1: of today. But the staff really say otherwise, and so

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Speaker 1: a lot of them put the blame squarely on his shoulders,

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Speaker 1: as like the CEO of this company, the seat, the

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Speaker 1: person who is overseeing all of this like really toxic stuff.

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Speaker 1: And what's really upsetting to me is that initially Bobby

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Speaker 1: Kotick was denying that he had any knowledge of this

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Speaker 1: kind of conduct happening, right. Uh, he was like, I

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Speaker 1: have no awareness of this. I didn't know this was happening,

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until after this lawsuit came out that

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Speaker 1: in October, he eventually apologized to the staff and agreed

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Speaker 1: to pay eighteen million dollars in settlement with federal regulators

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Speaker 1: and pledged to take steps to improve have a company

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Speaker 1: treats employees. And so you might think, you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: like that's the end of the story, Like they paid

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Speaker 1: the money, they apologized, they pledged to do better. But

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Speaker 1: this is where the story is continuing, because the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal reported that not only did he know about

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Speaker 1: this behavior, he was an active participant himself in this behavior. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so what's really funny is that in his kind

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Speaker 1: of apology tour, he was like, now, Blizzard is going

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Speaker 1: to have a zero tolerance policy against this kind of behavior,

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Speaker 1: but that he had to specifically note that that policy

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Speaker 1: was not inclusive of his own behavior. And he was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: well it's zero tolerance, but like not for me. You know,

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Speaker 1: It's all good. Yeah, I mean I know, like, um,

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Speaker 1: players have have kind of spoken out and you know,

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Speaker 1: said done like strikes where they won't play, and the

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00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: workers have spoken out. But still still, uh, this guy

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Speaker 1: is still around despite like a lot of allegations coming

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Speaker 1: out against him. Oh yes, so some of the allegations

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Speaker 1: against him, specifically, according to The Wall Street Journal, over

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Speaker 1: the years, Mr Kotick himself has been accused by several

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Speaker 1: women of mistreatment, both inside and outside of the workplace.

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Speaker 1: In some instances, he has worked to settle those complaints

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Speaker 1: quickly and quietly, so a couple of the specific allegations.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, he reportedly harassed one of

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Speaker 1: his assistants, including threatening and a voicemail to have her

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Speaker 1: killed with imagine if your boss was like, I'll have

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Speaker 1: you killed. If I know it's shocking, Yes, yes, I

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Speaker 1: mean a lot of It's one of those things that

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Speaker 1: you read about this that there's almost a part of

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Speaker 1: you that's like, can't be real, But in the back

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00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: of your head you're like, no, unfortunately, I think it is.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is kind of like a big part

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Speaker 1: of narcissists and that could power you see these levels

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Speaker 1: like that they think they're untouchable, as well as the

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Speaker 1: fact that no, just saying that it's actually a felony.

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Speaker 1: That is a felony. But congratulations, you have money and

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming he's white, you can move. Oh he is.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because he's almost like in some of these reports,

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Speaker 1: he kind of comes off as like a mega wealthy,

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Speaker 1: like mega powerful super villain. Uh, you know. In two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven, he allegedly told a private jet flight

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Speaker 1: attendant who was suing him for sexual harassment committed by

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Speaker 1: the pilot of his private jet, I'm going to destroy you.

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Speaker 1: I feel like telling a flight attendant on your private jet,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to destroy you is some like Mr Burns

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Speaker 1: level powerful narcissist run amuck with power and money stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, And I mean I can just imagine like

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Speaker 1: if he, you know, has played video games that he

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Speaker 1: sees himself as like the hero of this story or

429
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: like the powerful I can do anything because I have

430
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: like ascended every level in this video game that is

431
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: this company that I run, and I can treat people

432
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: however I want. Yeah, in my mind, I'm seeing like

433
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: a Harvey Weinstein of this industry because that's exactly what

434
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 1: he would do with women that would just say no

435
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: to him. And in my mind, this seems to be

436
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: what he is doing with women. If he's threatening them,

437
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: they're willing to go to harm them whatever they There's

438
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: no telling what he has actually done that people are

439
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: not speaking out about Yet that's such a good point,

440
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: and I think that Harvey Weinstein comparison is apt. And

441
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: I do think that the kind of things that he's

442
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: being accused of, I think really illustrate a just a

443
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: particular kind of view of women. That we men are

444
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: around to serve you and to do whatever you want

445
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: them to do, and that the idea that like a

446
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 1: woman would say no to you, the idea that a

447
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: woman who works on your private jet would sue you

448
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: for the behavior of your of your pilot. You know.

449
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: I think that the way that he responds to these women,

450
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: it just really illustrates a very particular kind of view

451
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: of women, just as they there to be in service

452
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: of powerful men, regardless of what their actual role is

453
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: um in the organization. And so another thing to point

454
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: out is that I believe the only so like in

455
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: terms of that voicemail where he told his assistant that

456
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: he would have her killed, he's through a spokesperson, he

457
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: said that he immediately apologized for that incident and that

458
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: that he regretted it. I think the only reason that

459
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: he said that is because it's on a voicemail. I

460
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: think that if there was not, you know, audio of

461
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: him saying it so we can't deny it. He I

462
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: don't think you ever would be like, oh yeah, I

463
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: definitely said that. I regretted it. I apologized. You know

464
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: this that in the third I mean, the only reason

465
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 1: you did that is because she You know, if it's

466
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 1: a voicemail, you have proof, right right? Yeah, I think

467
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: so too. And I think again, this is like my

468
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: very personal experience, but I have had a lot of

469
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: run ins with some real nasty gamer bros. And I

470
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of like what you were saying,

471
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: bridget of like seeing women in a certain way. I

472
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of like really um condescending, like

473
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: oh she's so cute, Oh she's so cute. She thinks

474
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: she can like threaten me, or she thinks she can

475
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: come into this world Like I'm only she's only here

476
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: because I'm letting her be here. She ignored. If she

477
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: annoys me, if she does something I don't like, then

478
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: like I will threaten her with violence, like immediately get

479
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 1: her out or find a way to silence her. Um.

480
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: Because yeah, I do think a lot of it is

481
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: like she only exists here because I allow her to

482
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: exist here, which is very, very toxic and gross. I mean,

483
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: how do you even as a gamer yourself? How do

484
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: you continue to show up and put yourself out there,

485
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: even if you're playing with someone who seems accommodating and

486
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: nice and like maybe they're like, you know, a feminist,

487
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 1: but to know in the back of your head if

488
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: I do something that he doesn't like, he could flip

489
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: on me and turn on me, and I would I

490
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 1: would see this other side. How do you continue to

491
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: show up and put yourself out there knowing this? Um? Yeah,

492
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the what really breaks my heart

493
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: about a lot of this because I stopped online gaming

494
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: when I was twelve because I had already at that

495
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: point received enough threats in harassment that it was not

496
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: worth it for me, and it became such a scary experience.

497
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: And I know that this has changed, but for a while,

498
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: like the Xbox Live guidelines had a bullet point in

499
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: there that was like, if you're being her ass, you

500
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: can leave, essentially like not addressing the problem, but being like, uh,

501
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 1: you know it's going to happen, so too bad. I

502
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: do still. I do still play, but it's much more

503
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: like I played by myself or with friends that I know,

504
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,239
Speaker 1: I do have. When I was in college, I went

505
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: to a technical college and um I entered a Super

506
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: Smash Brothers tournament and I won five hundred dollars. But

507
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: every other competitor, which you can all bet they were

508
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: all men, and some of them were my friends, did

509
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: flip out on me and they were like, you cheated.

510
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: There's no way she could not have one. That is impossible.

511
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: And I was like, people were watching, man, she you

512
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: just didn't think I was a threat, so you didn't

513
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: come at me, and you all die, right, They all

514
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: killed each other, which was my tactic, but it doesn't

515
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: work anyway. But you know, we talked about the story

516
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: actually just this weekend, Annie and I and just talking

517
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: about how men in general in these gaming worlds really

518
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: don't see women as threats, or if they are threats

519
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: is because they are too sexual and or something or

520
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: for their gay So for the male gays in general, uh,

521
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: And I was thinking about that with like feminist frequency.

522
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: They are established because they're trying to protect the women

523
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: in this industry and those who are non binary or

524
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: those who identifies women like they are really trying. But

525
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: even to this day and when I look at when

526
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: they do fundraisers or when they have like things live.

527
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: The amount of harassment just for existing to help women

528
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: is incredible, and the amount of just trolls coming at

529
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: them today when I'm like, oh my god, have you

530
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: not been listening to the fact that the growing number

531
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: of women who love gaming a b who are actually

532
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: here helping you, whether it's helping programming these new games

533
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: that you're really into and developing these new characters that

534
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: you're really into, but you don't want to acknowledge. It's

535
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: such a whole level of like, why why do you

536
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: hate women so much? Why does this industry continue to

537
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: foster a place of hate against women because things like

538
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: Twitch is still having complaints about, hey, you need to

539
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: control the level of harassment that is happening, but because

540
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: of you being silent, nothing is happening. Absolutely, And I

541
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: think it speaks to Annie's point about this idea of like,

542
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: if you don't like it, you can leave. I think

543
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: that there's a misconception that women who game are sort

544
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: of putting themselves in a position to be harassed, and

545
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: if they don't want to be harassed, they should leave.

546
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: And it leaves out this idea of like well, women

547
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to be harassed just to play games, right,

548
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: And I think that for a lot of these women

549
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: who work in activision, I think the attitude is, you know,

550
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: we're working at a at a BREWI video game company,

551
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: what did you expect? Like it really puts the onus

552
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: on people who have been harassed and survivors to get

553
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: themselves out of situations that they should not be in

554
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: the first place. And I think that's exactly it's like

555
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: a cultural attitude that really blames survivors and blames victims

556
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: for you know, systems that they did not create that

557
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: leads to them being harmed, and you know it. It

558
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: is sam to your point. I do think that we

559
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: all know that games are better, more inclusive, more interesting

560
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: when they're built by inclusive teams, and so your products

561
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: can only be more engaging if women are around to

562
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: help design it. Like you were talking about how Lily's

563
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: Garden is a more fun game for you because you

564
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: can tell it was, you know, put put together by

565
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: a woman, and it's better than the games where you

566
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: can tell this is designed by a team of men

567
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: who probably don't know any women, and you know, no

568
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: sense of like what a woman is going to want

569
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: from a game like this, right, And so we know

570
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 1: that things are better when women are are included and

571
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: valued and supported and championed. And it makes me sad

572
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: that the gaming industry just can't get it together to

573
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: you know, reflect that reality. You know. The biggest question

574
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: to me is like, if you are a company that

575
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,719
Speaker 1: wants to grow and truly are looking to make money,

576
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you want more people? If you all, do

577
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: you really want to just cater for half the population

578
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: when you can have the whole population? Hello, I really

579
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: think they hate women that much. Honestly, I don't think

580
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: they want them in their audience. And I say that

581
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: as someone who loves games, and I played plenty of

582
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: games made by women who were great and really inclusive,

583
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: and I played games made by men that are great

584
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: and really inclusive. But I feel like the industry at

585
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 1: a whole, especially this like console gaming level, they are

586
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: so resistant to it, and they're just like I think

587
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: they don't like, they don't want women in their audience

588
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: because they think it will mean the value of their products.

589
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: And I think also they're so afraid of pissing off.

590
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: They're very angry because This is another note I want

591
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: to make. When they harass you, it's like threats to

592
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: kill you are rape you. It's not like, right, hey,

593
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: you suck. It's like I'm going to find your address

594
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: and send it to people like right, it's scary. It

595
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: jumps to this, I'm going to rape you, unharm you

596
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: in a way that I know it is going to

597
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: violate you and make you know that I'm a man, right,

598
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: which is in a self whole level that honestly, all

599
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: of this just again kind of talks about when when

600
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: you were talking about this industry in general, about being

601
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: a fat club or a good old boy club. And

602
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: I see that continuously when you see the higher ups

603
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: being just friends of theirs coming up with the same

604
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: damn attitude that may have a lesser record or the

605
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: lesser known record than the previous person, which is so like,

606
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: then you're just fostering once again more of this nastiness

607
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: that you are saying you want to prevent. Now, Oh,

608
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: I completely agree, it's such it's such a vicious toxic cycle.

609
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: I don't actually know if I believe that some of

610
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: these places can be reformed or improved without massive structural changes,

611
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: like reading the Blizzard statement where they're like, oh, we're

612
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 1: bringing in a counselor, or we're bringing in uh, you know,

613
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: we're gonna do more training. I don't think that these

614
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: men need to be trained to know that signing your

615
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: emails one is not professional. I don't I don't think.

616
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's going to cut it. I

617
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: don't think that like a training is going to be

618
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: the thing to to, you know, help men in this

619
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 1: company understand that crawling into your female coworkers office all

620
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: drunk to harass her is not acceptable workplace behavior. And

621
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: so I'm really curious if this can all be improved.

622
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: But it sounds to me so toxic from the very

623
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: very top, you know, the CEO, to the guys who

624
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: are playing the games threatening to murder you, and the

625
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: platforms being like that's okay, that is that is you know,

626
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: if that that's part of gameplay. If you don't want

627
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: to be involved in that, don't play the game. Like

628
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: there are just so many levels to how bad it

629
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: is that it can be very dismaying. And I do

630
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: wonder too, like when you talk about them saying we're

631
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: gonna bring in counselors, We're going to teach these tactics

632
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: and we're gonn to talk about you know, workplace safety

633
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: and all this. But I'm like, who are you really

634
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: keeping safe? If the people that have made this place

635
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: unsafe still exists there, then who are you truly keeping safest?

636
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: Not the victims. The victims have to be there with them.

637
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: The victims who have been threatened by these people, are

638
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: harassed by these people, are continually told, you know, all

639
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: of these nasty comments by these people, and all you're

640
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: doing is keeping them there, those perpetrators, And you're like,

641
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: but we're gonna help them and spend money on them.

642
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: Who are you keeping safe? And that's that's like a

643
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: common thing up and down tech that I cannot stand

644
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: where even when somebody is like confirmed to be a

645
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: harasser or an abuser, or you know, somebody who has

646
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: abused their power, a lot of times these companies will

647
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: go out of their way to praise them or give

648
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: them like lucrative exit packages on the way out the door.

649
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: And it makes me like, boils my blood. It enrages me. So.

650
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: A former Blizzard technology chief Ben Kilgore, was fired in

651
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: after an investigation into most able allegations of sexual harassment.

652
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: But he was thanked quote for his many contributions over

653
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: the last four and a half years in an email

654
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: by his then boss. And what kind of messages that

655
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: send somebody who is fired for sexual harassment? Uh not,

656
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: Like clearly the company it was like, okay, these you

657
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: know this happened, we have to take action to fire him.

658
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,959
Speaker 1: Is really necessary to praise him on the way out?

659
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: And what kind of signal do you think that is

660
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: sending to the people that he harassed and the people

661
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: who have to work there after he leaves. Yeah, yep,

662
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 1: I get some extra money and he did a great job.

663
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: Just ignore all that other stuff. Is cool. And this

664
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: was like in the face of wasn't it thirty employees

665
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: saying that they had experienced some type of harassment? That's right.

666
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: Female employees in their E sports department sent an email

667
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: to department head saying that they had been subject to

668
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: unwanted touching, to meeting comments, exclusion from important meetings, and

669
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: unsolicited remarks about their appearance. And again, uh, Cochick was

670
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: aware of this email because he was one of the

671
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: people who got this email, and so him saying publicly

672
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: like I'm not aware of any of these obligations. I've

673
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: never seen anything like this in my company. Blah blah blah.

674
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: It's just a lie. It's a way to save face,

675
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: and it to me makes it seem as though the

676
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 1: company is not really invested in or interested in cleaning

677
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: any of this up. They're interested in making a pr

678
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: problem go away and interested in, uh making shareholders feel

679
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: good and feel, you know, like the company is in

680
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: good hands. I don't think they actually care about the

681
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: fact that they're they're people in their employee are are

682
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: going through this just to do their jobs. Yeah. No,

683
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: I totally agree, and I feel like a lot of it,

684
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: to me gives the vibe of like really actually wanting

685
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 1: to hold on to this culture and the way they've

686
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: been able to treat women and believing in so far

687
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: very unfortun nearly it seems that it's working, but that

688
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: people will just forget it and move on. That's not

689
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: to say the employees haven't been really especially lately like

690
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: coming together and speaking out, which is amazing and I

691
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: really appreciate it and I know how hard that is, um,

692
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, I I've felt like their whole thing is

693
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: at least the higher ups are like I'd want to

694
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: continue as is. Let's just way put to blow over.

695
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: It's gonna be fine. Yeah, And you know, to your

696
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: point about it seems like they want to keep this culture.

697
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: You said something earlier that kind of sparks something in

698
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: my mind, which is, we know that the most extreme

699
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: violent gamer dudes out there are like pretty scary and

700
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: pretty like I guess, very into the things that they're into,

701
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: and we've seen before when that when those when folks

702
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: like that feel like something that they are entitled to

703
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: is taken away from them. You know, there are so

704
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: many different instances and pop culture. When they made a

705
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: reboot of Ghostbusters with women, like, they're taking Ghostbusters away

706
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: from me. When Star Wars cast women and people of color,

707
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this institution that is mine is being

708
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: taken away from me. Part of me wonders if they

709
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: feel like they don't want to make significant changes to

710
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:23,280
Speaker 1: this toxic, misogynistic culture precisely because they want their core

711
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 1: the people that they're thinking of as their core user base,

712
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: They want them to feel like, yeah, this toxic soup

713
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: of culture that we've created here is still yours, Like

714
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 1: like no one is coming to like wocify your video

715
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: games at Blizzard, like we will continue to foster misogyny

716
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: and extremism and violence. That's a guarantee, you know what

717
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: I mean? Right, Yeah, No, I think there is something

718
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: too that I think there is some kind of like

719
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: wink wink thing happening of like uh to their very angry,

720
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: generally white male player base. You know, we're not going

721
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: to give in to these feminists or these social justice warriors,

722
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: like you know, we'll say something out loud, we'll do

723
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: like a publicity thing, but between us, it's gonna be fine.

724
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: We're not gonna mess with anything, and we're going to

725
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: keep providing you just for you the entertainment and as

726
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: long as women are quiet and know their role and

727
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: they can come in. But otherwise they're not welcome here.

728
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 1: They have any problem with that, they can just leave.

729
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: Oh exactly exactly, any problem at all, Like, well, then leave,

730
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: It's fine, Samantha does I I have one of my

731
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: favorite games that came out recently, The Last of Us Too,

732
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: had featured a woman in the main role. Mostly women

733
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: game or dudes hated it. They hated it, and they

734
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: sent like death threats to all the voice actors, all

735
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 1: the creators. So it's not just like it's the player.

736
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: It's impacting the player, but it's also impacting like companies

737
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: and games that are trying to show these other stories,

738
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 1: and that's just another way of silencing and and keeping

739
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: it like no, it has to look this way and

740
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: very gate kept, and and if so, you will receive

741
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: a death threat. Like it's just very it's a very

742
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: toxic space in a lot of ways. It makes me

743
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: so sad that, you know, companies like Activision are so

744
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,479
Speaker 1: big that they really can, like what they do can

745
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: dictate the rest of the industry. And like you said,

746
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: it's a top down thing. And so we're talking to

747
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: voice talent, we're talking designers, we're talking women who write

748
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: about games. Were like, the the impact that it can

749
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: have when a major player cultivates this kind of toxicity

750
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: and massage, Andy, I think it really knows no bounds.

751
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: And I'm really hurting to see staffers, you know, speaking up,

752
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: folks within the company speaking up. Members Having teenth, a

753
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: group of shareholders led by Union pension group the s

754
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: o C Investment Group, called for the resignation of Activision

755
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: CEO Bobby kotick Um and the retirement of two other

756
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,959
Speaker 1: members of the board UM. And the letter was also

757
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: signed by you know, various kind of investment groups which

758
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: focus on supporting women across industries and UM the like.

759
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: Rank and file staff themselves are really speaking up, trying

760
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: to get QUO tick to resign. UM advocacy group a

761
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: b K Workers Alliance recently published a document signed by

762
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: five employees calling for Coote's removal s CEO UM. They said,

763
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: we the undersigned no longer have confidence in the leadership

764
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: of Bobby Kotick, a CEO of Activision, and they walked

765
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: out in mass to to protest this. And I know

766
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: that that is not easy. It's not easy to speak

767
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: up in a company like this where it's already been

768
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: documented that retaliation is a thing that happens. And so

769
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: kudos to these employees who were doing that, but it

770
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: seems like we're right now. Unfortunately the board is sticking

771
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: with this CEO. You know, they said that they have

772
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: confidence in him. And I think this is where things

773
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 1: get a little bit business e because at a certain point,

774
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: you know, you have these investors and shareholders in your company,

775
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: and it's like I can understand why this guy's leadership

776
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: is not inspiring confidence in your investment in this in

777
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: this company. And it's like, like, I agree with you

778
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: that they're thought they're doing some sort of wink wink

779
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: not non thing, but I think that they are. They

780
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: should be beholden to their stakeholders and the staff who

781
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: have to deal with this environment that they're cultivating. And

782
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: it's like, I guess, I wonder where when does any

783
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: kind of accountability come in, Like who are you accountable to?

784
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: And if not now when? Yeah? And I think that

785
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: was one of the most galling things for the employees

786
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: but also people who uh just been watching the situation

787
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: is that they seems so out of touch with the

788
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: statements they released after the walkout, like they clearly were

789
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: kind of like not getting the point or purposefully skirting

790
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: around the point. And then like there's a whole you know,

791
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: I'm trying to go into right now. But there was

792
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: a woman who was in charge of like the White

793
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: House communications during Bush and the Iraq War. She was

794
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: in charge of the women's gaming board there of like

795
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: making sure that their voices were heard, and she was

796
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: like she tweeted something that was called the problem with

797
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: the whistleblowing while all this was happening. Okay, so you're

798
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: not really listening to us. Cool, cool, and like we've

799
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: gone over some names already, but they were already Like

800
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: those are not the only names of men at this

801
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: company that I've done really horrible things. Yeah, so it is,

802
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: like like you said, and it is. It feels very

803
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: overwhelming and it's so frustrating. I think we recently did

804
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: an episode where there's a new survey came out, some

805
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: new research came out and showed that like, over the

806
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: past ten years, the situation has actually gotten worse, um

807
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: in terms of representation in video games. I think this

808
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: was specifically characters and storylines and stuff. But that's it.

809
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: Just it does feel like a lot and it feels

810
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 1: like we are making a lot of progress, and I'm

811
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: happy to see people speaking up about it. God we're

812
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: talking about it. But yeah, it's with so much work

813
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: to be done, absolutely, and I think, you know, it's

814
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 1: sad that it doesn't seem like a lot us improving.

815
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: This month, the Anti Defamation League released a new study

816
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: that shows that of young gamers experienced abuse or harassment

817
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: while playing games, five out of six adults ages eighteen

818
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: to forty five experienced harassment and online multiplayer games, representing

819
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: eighty million adult gamers. Three out of five young people

820
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: that age thirteen to seventeen experienced harassment and online multiplayer games,

821
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: and seventy one of adult online multiplayer gamers experienced severe abuse,

822
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: including physical threats, stalking, and sustained harassment. So precisely the

823
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: kind of thing that you were talking about dealing with

824
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: when you were playing in these kinds of games, and

825
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: again not surprising, the largest increases in identity based harassment

826
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: occurred among adult respondents identified as women, black or African

827
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: American and Asian American. And so it's just bad. It

828
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like a like a safe environment. And I

829
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: think given that so many young people are having formative

830
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,439
Speaker 1: experiences in these environments, these companies owe it to them

831
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to foster safety and actual

832
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: community in the gameplay experience, but also in the in

833
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: the companies, in the boardrooms where these games get made.

834
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: Like it all at all to me is kind of

835
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: one big bucket. And I really think like the industry

836
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: has got to make some very very big changes if

837
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: anything is going to get better. Yeah, and I would

838
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: like to add on here because I think sometimes this

839
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: gets lost in this discussion. But you know, you hear

840
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 1: in the media all the time like video games are

841
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: bad for your braid or might cause violence, especially just

842
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: a lot of says that show, um they can help

843
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 1: with things like PTSD, they can they have positive impacts.

844
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: And I know listeners have written in and said, you know,

845
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: for one reason or the other, I have social anxiety

846
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be, and I really found

847
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: this online community and it was so important for me,

848
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: and this gaming was so important for me and in

849
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: helping with whatever it is. And so like, all of

850
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: this is bad and we should fix it. But I

851
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: also does have like real as I feel like we

852
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: always make this point, and I think it's always important

853
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: to make, but there's real world impacts of these things

854
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: on your health and on your the communities you can form,

855
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: and even how you feel about yourself. Um So I

856
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: do think, yeah, this is really really important conversation, right,

857
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: And I just want to add this because I was

858
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: looking it up. I wanted to see as you were

859
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: talking about the board of supporting uh CO check and

860
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, so, how many women are on the board.

861
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: There's two one just recently, so not surprising, But then

862
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: on top of that a new article saying that their

863
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: solution instead of having him resign is to do a

864
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: new committee, uh does a workplace responsibility committee and they're

865
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: going to watch over the workplace and then talk to

866
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: the directors who co take us a part of He's

867
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,439
Speaker 1: a director on those board. So we're like, wait, they're

868
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: not even looking at Why are they looking so far

869
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: right when this the problem is right in front of

870
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: them and this is their solution. Fantastic way to not

871
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: read the room, guys, Way will not read the room.

872
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: It's the other title for this episode. Third, It's like,

873
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: I honestly think like parting ways with their CEO is

874
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: like the least they can do spending more money and

875
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: more time and more investment in like creating these kind

876
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: of bs toothless committees to do nothing. I think it's

877
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: just it just shows how how they're not meaningfully interested

878
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: in like actual change. It's just like like a band aid.

879
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: And I've even a good band aid at that. You know,

880
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: it's literally like, hey, they have told you what the

881
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: problem is, this is the problem. Why are you doing

882
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: non work to be like, oh we we don't know

883
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: what the problem is. We're gonna we're gonna put another

884
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: committee when they're like, no, it's clear there's a petition.

885
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: They've told you what could help just resolve what? Yeah,

886
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: don't y'all read the Wall Street Journal, because there's a

887
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: whole thing in here about what what's going on, Like

888
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: safer money is by paper. I mean, this is the obvious.

889
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: When you were talking to Annie of like, oh, no, okay,

890
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: we're just gonna pretend like we don't want to understand

891
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: it is sweeping under the rug. Then on, yes, yes,

892
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 1: I have so many thoughts on this. Oh my, um,

893
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: but we should wrap it up for now. Thank you

894
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: as always, Ridget for coming Where could the good listeners

895
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: find you? Thank you for having me. This is always

896
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: such a treat. If you're interested in more discussions on

897
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: the Internet technology and how women and people who identify

898
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: as women show up no spaces, you can check out

899
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: my podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet. We

900
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: just did a really interesting couple episodes all up out

901
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: the Astro a world tragedy in Houston, so some truly

902
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: uh wild conspiracy theories coming out of there. So we

903
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: have a really interesting episode with our researcher debunking them,

904
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: so please check it out and you can follow me

905
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Bridget Murray or on Instagram at Bridget

906
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: Murray in d C. Yes, and definitely do that if

907
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: you haven't already. Listeners and bridget happy Weirdo Christmas man,

908
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 1: I'm little happy weirdo Christmas to one at all. Yes, Yes,

909
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 1: thank you for introducing us to this holiday, and thank

910
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: you listeners for listening. If you would like to contact us,

911
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: you can or email Steffandi your Mom Stuff at I

912
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: hurt media dot com. You can find us on Instagram

913
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: and Stuff I've Never Told You are on Twitter at

914
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always, sure a super producer, Christina,

915
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: thank you, Thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Ever

916
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: Told The production by her Radio for more podcast on

917
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio I Heard you, app Apple Podcast or

918
00:50:51,520 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows the mo