1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace and eerie Brian Coburger selfie 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: emerges where he's dressed like Ted Bundy. This as shock, 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: evidence comes forth, evidence that Xanna was not killed in 4 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: her sleep, she was literally chased down the stairs that 5 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: stabbed dead. Is that true? I'm Nancy Grace, this is 6 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. 7 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: Don't know what. 8 00:00:59,040 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 3: She's not waking. 9 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: They saw some man in their house as nice. So 10 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: much has developed over the last days in the Brian 11 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: Coburger prosecution, in the deadly slangs of four beautiful University 12 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: Idaho students, which we thought before tonight had all been 13 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: stabbed dead quasi if not totally in their sleep in 14 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: their own beds. But now a shocking theory has emerged 15 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: that Xanna, Beautiful Xana, was actually chased downstairs and then murdered. 16 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: This as an eerie a haunting selfie emerges. Oh there 17 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: you go, Brian Coberger dressed like Ted Buddy. Now why 18 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: would the white bread boy from the Poconos dress like 19 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy and take eerie selfies? You know what, before 20 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: we even get to the news, I need a drink 21 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: and a shrink. But sadly, I'm a teetotaler, So straight 22 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: out to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us Psychoalys from the 23 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: La Jurisdiction. You can see her now on Peacock. She's 24 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: the author of deal Breakers on Amazon and you can 25 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: find her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. Bethany, why why 26 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: is he all dressed like Ted Bundy for a series 27 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: of selfies? Action looks like he's the star in a 28 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 1: Slice and Dice movie. 29 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 3: What's this dexter? 30 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, Nancy? 31 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 3: This tells me that had he not been apprehended, he 32 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 3: would have gone on to kill if Ted Bundy is 33 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 3: his idol and Ted Bundy is a serial killer, killed men, 34 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 3: killed women, had a completely deviant life that this tells 35 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 3: me that this was Brian Coberger's first rodeo, this first 36 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 3: mass killing, and this was just practicing for all the 37 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 3: killings to come. This is his idol, so he's going 38 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: to form his entire offending pattern around his idol. This 39 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 3: is more evidence that Brian Coberger should never ever be 40 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 3: let loose in society. 41 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: Again, Okay, you're preaching to the chron on that dodtor. 42 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: Bethany bo was looking for something else something that I 43 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: can't regurgitate myself. I'm trying to figure out why mister 44 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: button down Oxfordshire is dressing like Ted Bundy and a selfie. 45 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: Think of Halloween. You know how all the sorority girls 46 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: dress up like hookers, right, So this says something, Bethany, 47 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: something deeper than I learned in law school. Why is 48 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: he dressing up like Ted Bundy? It means something? For 49 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: Pete's sake. 50 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 3: The first patient I ever saw as an intern, I 51 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: was twenty five years old, was a young woman who 52 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 3: looked like little bo Peep from the waist up and 53 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 3: like a hooker from the waist down. She had fishnet stockings, 54 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 3: stiletto heels. She was a church secretary, and so she 55 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: had this duality in her personality. And this is what 56 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 3: I see in Brian Coberger. In fact, we call it 57 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: a vertical split in my field, where one half of 58 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 3: the person's personality could be deviant, naughty, counter society, maybe 59 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: even homicidal, and the other part is sort of like 60 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: a do gooder, and the two sites are not integrated. 61 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 3: They could go and give a birthday cake to Grandma 62 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 3: and celebrate Grandma and then go rape the old lady 63 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: next door. So it's very scary when you see these 64 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: kinds of lack of integration with people of certain types 65 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 3: of pathology, because it tells you that deb inside could 66 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 3: be so so deep, because it's hidden even from their 67 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 3: own consciousness. 68 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes joining me an ullstar panel to make sense of 69 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: what we are learning tonight. And I want to go 70 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: straight out to another renowned guess. It's Howard Bloom, author 71 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: of When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the 72 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: Idaho student murders. He has done extensive research on this case, 73 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: talk to people we've never even heard of in his 74 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: effort to get to the truth of what happened. You 75 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: may know Coburger better than any of us, and I 76 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: want to hear what you think about why. 77 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 4: He's dressing up like Ted Bundy of all people. Well, 78 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 4: first of all, you know that's taking a leap of faith. 79 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 4: Sometimes a black puddie is just a black hoiddie. I mean, 80 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 4: there's no crime wearing a black hoiddie. So is he 81 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 4: posing as Ted Bundy or is he just some guy 82 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 4: wearing his black hoodie? 83 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: Okay, stop, just stop, please please just stop. Just a 84 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: black hoodie. You know I've got a black hoodie, and 85 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: I don't look like that at a selfie, a positioned selfie. 86 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: It's not like he's holding his phone like that. Some 87 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: of that is up on a tripod or set up somehow. 88 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: Why is he doing not that one? Not that one? 89 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: Let me see the other one. Go, yes, that one. 90 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: You want to tell me he's just just wearing a 91 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: black hoodie. No, he's not just wearing a black hoodie. Here. 92 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: He is communicating something that one evokes Ted Bundy. That 93 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: is not innocent. He's looking all thuggish and menacing. So 94 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: it's not that he just ran out and bought a 95 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: black hoodie. I've got a black hoodie and I don't 96 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: take freaky selfies in it. There's a difference. What is 97 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: a difference? Speak Bloom again. 98 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 2: I don't find I just find that a disconcerting stare. 99 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: He's giving into the camera, he's posing, he's making faces. 100 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: There's no crime in doing that. 101 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really a large leap. 102 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: Of faith to condemn him for that. There's so much 103 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: more evidence there to look at and to proposes that 104 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: he makes in front of his own camera. It's really 105 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: doing a psychological analysis of a selfie. 106 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: When you have a whole series of self you pick 107 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: out one. 108 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: I think that's a large leap of faith, and it's speculative. 109 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: We can be speculative. Let's be speculative, but let's also 110 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: give him the benefit of the doubt of what that 111 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: selfie means. 112 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us. Okay, you use the term 113 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: vertical split, and it makes me think of other killers 114 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: such as BTK buying torture kill, Dennis Reider, who was 115 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: literally a church deacon by day and a serial killer 116 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: slash dog catcher by night, murdering people, women, even children 117 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: that in bizarre sexual ways that he would identify on 118 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: his dog catching route. Then you've got Rex Hureman, who 119 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: is an architect and a successful architect at that by day, 120 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: even bringing his daughter into the practice, and one of 121 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: the freakiest, most evil serial killers in history. Then of 122 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: course there's Ted Bundy, who is a quasi brilliant law 123 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: student but also a freakazoid killer where at the end 124 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: he's just bashing people in the head with a log. 125 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: There's no forethought, there's just mad killing. But he's not insane. 126 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: So when you say vertical split, the duality of the 127 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: psychees of these killers is something I'm trying to figure 128 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: out with Coburger. Vertical split. I've never heard that before. Bethany. 129 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 3: Well, let's think of a vertical split as on one 130 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 3: side is all the aspirational goodness their families, whom they 131 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 3: rely upon. In the case of Brian Coburger, you know, 132 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 3: teaching in a class, learning about law, you know, trying 133 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 3: to flirt with women. But he was a family guy. 134 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 3: He lived with his family for a long long time. 135 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: And then on the other side of the split all 136 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 3: the evil side. I mean, the church secretary that looked 137 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: like little bo peep from the waist up and a 138 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: hooker from the waist down was having affairs with other 139 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 3: pastors through the church computer. But she was the church 140 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: greeter on Sunday morning. So it's the lack of integration 141 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 3: I think in which these kinds of actions foment. So 142 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 3: the BTK killer, you know, he would measure people's. 143 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: Grasp joining me. Howard Bloom, author of the definitive work 144 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: on as of Now on the Idaho Sleighs when the 145 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: Night comes falling a requiem for the Ido Student murders, 146 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: and you can find him at Howard bloommest blum dot com. Howard, 147 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Howard the nay to 148 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: keep photographic evidence. 149 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: What is that when someone commits a crime like this, 150 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: it is the high point of their moment. They are 151 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 2: building up to it over a period of time and 152 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: then they finally find the will. They finally can make 153 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 2: that jump into becoming the monster that they're seeing in 154 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: their mind. And they want to commemorate this moment. They 155 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: want this moment to live on. That's why they do it. 156 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: They want to have this experience. It's like looking at 157 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 2: a scrap book. We might keep a scrap book of 158 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 2: high events in our lives. Weddings, high school graduations, college graduations. 159 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: They are their killings. 160 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: Jo Scott Morgan joining me, Professor FORENSCTS Jaiswell State University, 161 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He's the 162 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. 163 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: Jo Scott, thank you for being with us. I want 164 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: to the dichotomy of the selfies that Coburger has taken 165 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: juxapposed against compared to the crime scene, and I want 166 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: you to hear this just got before you elaborate on 167 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: the crime scene. Disturbing evidence tonight that Xana did not 168 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: die in her sleep, she was actually chased down downstairs 169 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: and murdered. Listen. 170 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 5: New information is Madison may have been the killer's intended target, 171 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 5: and the killer was surprised to find Mogan was not alone. 172 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 5: Kaylee Gonzolves had recently moved out and only returned for 173 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 5: a visit with Mogen. The killer arrives just after four 174 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 5: am and goes directly to Madison's room first, where a 175 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 5: tanned leather sheath for a k bar knife is found 176 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 5: near Mogan's body on the bed. Coburger's DNA was found 177 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 5: on the button snap of the knife sheath. 178 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 6: One floor below Madison's room, Xena has just received her 179 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 6: door dash order and is scrolling through Instagram when she 180 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 6: hears a struggle in the room above. Running up to 181 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 6: the next floor, the killer chases Xana back down to 182 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 6: her bedroom, leaving the knife sheath behind. Catching up to Kernodle, 183 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 6: the killer stabs her to death while her boyfriend Ethan 184 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 6: remains asleep. Shocking new evidence. Before he is killed, the 185 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 6: murderer carves Chapin's lower leg with a blade. Chapin is 186 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 6: the last murder victim killed with one strike of the 187 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 6: knife hitting an artery. 188 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: Now, according to sources, Ethan's leg was not carved, it 189 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: was stabbed. I don't think we're going to know that 190 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: until we actually hear the autopsy report. But straight out 191 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Author, 192 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: podcast Star. I could go on, just Scott, this changes things. 193 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: This is a different dynamic than what we had first 194 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: been told. The fact that Xana was chased down that 195 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: changes the entire complexion. 196 00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 2: For me. 197 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: It was horrible to start with, but imagining Xana running 198 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: for her life as another layer of terror, how would 199 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: they even know that? 200 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 7: Well, I think we got to go back who told 201 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 7: us in the beginning? You know that all and I 202 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 7: mean all of the victims were apparently asleep. Do you recall, Nancy, 203 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 7: it was either the first or the second day. Afterward 204 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 7: we had this odd event that occurred which never happens, 205 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 7: and that is the coroner did an interview. Do you 206 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 7: recall that she gives an interview? 207 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 1: Yes, I remember, And that is why a cardinal rule 208 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: is never speak to the press if you are part 209 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: of a case. It doesn't matter what they say about 210 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: you or anything else, because one off hand statement they 211 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,119 Speaker 1: were killed in their sleep has now taken a snowball 212 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: that that's what happened, and it may be entirely untrue. 213 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 7: Yeah, and now retrospectively, when you throw this new data 214 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 7: in there, it's almost you know, it can be implied 215 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 7: that it's deceptive or whatever. That's why, if you're inside 216 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 7: of the investigative bubble that I refer to, you keep 217 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 7: your mouth shut, particularly for the corner. They have no 218 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 7: business saying anything about this. But the dynamic of Xanna 219 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 7: being found away from the bed is quite interesting, and 220 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 7: that that gives you an awareness, does it? Because we've 221 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 7: heard about the food delivery and this sort of thing. 222 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 7: We've heard about voices and a lot of the stuff. 223 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 7: I think going back, Xana is tied to relative to 224 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 7: her activity, you know, we can you know, you get 225 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 7: this impression about all of this all the way along, 226 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 7: and the dynamic has completely changed. You know, before we're thinking, yeah, 227 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 7: you know Ethan and Xanna were cuddled in the bed, 228 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 7: you know, and that they're asleep. Oh that's that ain't 229 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 7: what happened here, Nancy. 230 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: Well, how are they going to prove it. 231 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 7: I don't know that that they necessarily can. I think 232 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 7: one of the fascinating things for this, in particular is 233 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 7: if she had an awareness that there was somebody up 234 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 7: there and she snuck up the stairs just to kind 235 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 7: of investigate on her own. 236 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: Was she cut in. 237 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 7: Any way up there and then chased down afterwards, and 238 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 7: maybe there's some kind of deposition of her blood on 239 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 7: the carpet leading back to her bedroom, or is it 240 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 7: all concentrated in the room. Because the one thing we 241 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 7: do know about. 242 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: It, I want to throw something at him. Yeah, sure, Okay, 243 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: listen to this. I think the blood spatter is going 244 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: to be critical here because I'm hypothesizing if she were 245 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: stabbed at all on those stairs, even if she ran 246 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: back up, We're going to get Xana's blood on the stairs, 247 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: even if her body is found in the bedroom, if 248 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: she ran down and ran back. I don't know yet 249 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: because I haven't seen the blood evidence. But all they 250 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: need is a drop a drop, not a transfer, not 251 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: a smear which could come from the killer, but a 252 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: drop from her or spatter from her which showed the 253 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: event happened right there, so it wouldn't matter where her 254 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: body was found that shows that a stabbing happened on 255 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: the stairs, that she left her room. And there's one 256 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: other thing, but put this into your equation. Joining me 257 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: is crime Stories investigative reporter Dave mac Dave, isn't it 258 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: true that one of the survivors, the one that ran 259 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: from one room to the next that night they were 260 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: frantically texting back and forth. There's a guy in here, 261 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: he's wearing a black mask on his face. Didn't one 262 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: of them run past Xana and see her in the 263 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: floor and think she was passed out drunk Because all 264 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: the facts hadn't assimilated, she didn't know what had happened, 265 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: which goes to this theory refreshment I recollection, Dave. 266 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 6: Mac, That's exactly what happened, and now you've got to 267 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 6: put it in the context of the moment at you know, 268 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 6: you're talking four o'clock in the morning at a house 269 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 6: that is very active, it's heading towards the end of 270 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 6: the night early morning, and they hear something, and so 271 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 6: one of the roommates does go and look see what's 272 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 6: going on, but not putting anything. You're not thinking something 273 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 6: like this is going to happen. Your thinking is just 274 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 6: a regular night hearing weird sounds. But she sees Xana 275 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 6: and it appears to her that Xanna is just asleep. 276 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 6: That's because that's what she would normally expect to find 277 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 6: at that time of the day or early morning. So 278 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 6: nothing really clicked until later. And that's why there was 279 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 6: all the texting back and forth with the other roommate 280 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 6: and the calls to the phones, just if something's wrong, 281 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 6: something's different than normal. 282 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: And here's another thing, aside from the possibility that Xanna 283 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: was actually chased down and killed that night, the theory 284 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: that Maddie Madison Mogan may have been the intended target. 285 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: And now we are now getting which I'm about to 286 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: get to him leading up to it, information as to 287 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: how we've heard all along. The prosecutors came out in 288 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: open court and said we have no evidence that the 289 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: victims were stalked on social media. Because remember there was 290 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: a lot of talk that Kyburger had stalked the victims 291 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: in that vein. It was believed for a long period 292 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: of time that killing Gold's Solvice was the intended victim. 293 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: It wasn't that the accepted theory at the get go. 294 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: Dave Mack that somehow Kelly was the intended victim and 295 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: the others were tangential. Now we're hearing that new information 296 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: Matty Mogan may have been the killer's intended target. 297 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 6: Well, you know the first talking about targeting and who 298 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 6: was the first one that actually came from the Genthalvest family. 299 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 6: You remember in the very early parts of the investigation, 300 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 6: they were very public talking about the investigation of wanting information, 301 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 6: and they were given certain information that led them to 302 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 6: believe and led them to say that Kayley was the target. 303 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 6: In their minds, that's what they saw. Now we're hearing 304 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 6: that that may not be the case. Again, Now we 305 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 6: go back to the world of Joseph Scott Morgan, because 306 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 6: I don't know how you can determine when you've got 307 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 6: two young women in the same location, both being killed 308 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 6: with a knife, how you determine who was killed first? 309 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: Guys, Now we're learning more freaky coburger photos just emerging 310 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: could reveal how he allegedly targeted four beautiful Idaho University 311 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: students for murder. 312 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 5: Emergency. 313 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: You don't know what. 314 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: She's They saw some men in their house a say. 315 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 2: Come have to. 316 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: She's not waking up. What are hydrons? 317 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 5: Of the Emergency one one two, two Teams, Drugs. 318 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. On one of the many 319 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: many days I spent trumping around Moscow and Pullman, I 320 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: met Coburger's neighbor, one of his neighbors who described Coburger's father, 321 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: upon moving Coburger in for the start of school, coming 322 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: to him and saying words to the effect, my son 323 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: has a hard time making friends. Surprise, surprise, would you 324 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: be his friend? I believe the pool party that is 325 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 1: now under the microscope was an invite from that neighbor. 326 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: Little did I know at the time that that pool 327 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: party could be the nexus between Coburger and the murder victims. 328 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 8: Listen to me, he seemed a little awkward, kind of 329 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 8: like you might expect for a PhD student who didn't 330 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 8: know anyone at the party and was maybe trying his 331 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 8: best to kind of get out there and be social 332 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 8: and make friends. 333 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 9: Shortly after moving to Pullman, Coberger is invited to a 334 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 9: pool party in Moscow July ninth. Coburger attends the pool 335 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 9: party during the day, and his cell phone data analyzed 336 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 9: by an FBI cell phone expert indicates Coburger came back 337 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 9: to Moscow the night of July ninth, and in the days, weeks, 338 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 9: and months that followed, Coburger's phone pinged nearly a dozen 339 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 9: times to a tower that provides coverage within one hundred 340 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 9: feet of the murder house. Cell Phone records indicate Coberger 341 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 9: was within one hundred meters of eleven twenty two King 342 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 9: Road on at least twenty five three occasions. All trips 343 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 9: were after dark, and the last recorded visit just six 344 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 9: days before the murders. 345 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: The first lady you heard speaking from the pool Party 346 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: episode was from our friends at NBC's Dateline. That Dateline 347 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: episode has exploded in the courtroom with the judge demanding 348 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: an investigation to find out how that and other information 349 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: was leaked to Dateline. And I got to tell you 350 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: it certainly touched a nerve, which makes me think that 351 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: what's in Dateline could very well be true. Now, can 352 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: we get back to the nexus between the pool party 353 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: and the murder victims? Okay, listen to this. 354 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 5: Another leak is Coburger's cell phone browsing history in possession 355 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 5: of law enforcement shows dozens of pictures of female students 356 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 5: at Washington State and the University of Idaho. Many in 357 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 5: bathing suits, some of them friends or followers of three 358 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 5: murdered students, Madison, Kaylee, and Xana. 359 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: Okay, now we must deduce, we must extrapolate based on 360 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: what we know. Joining me as a renowned homes sign investigator, 361 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, director Cold Case Foundation, and the star of 362 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: YouTube channel the interview room where I found him. Okay, Chris, 363 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: go with me on this and jump in. So he 364 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: gets invited to the pool party, I think the same 365 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: pool party the neighbor invited him to so he could 366 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: make friends. All right, He's at the pool party that night, 367 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: July nine, begins his trips to where the murders occurred, 368 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: the King Road murder scene. That night, his phone is 369 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: pinged and there are over twenty subsequent visits to the 370 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: murder scene leading up to the murder significance. They start 371 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: the night of the pool party, right, he didn't know them. 372 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: Then we find photos in his cell phone of women 373 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: girls students in swimsuits. Were those girls at the pool party? 374 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: Because now we learned last step that on social the 375 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: girls in the swimsuits were social media friends online with 376 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: the victims. So all along we're like, how did he 377 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: find these victims. How did he target them? Does it 378 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: all go back to the innocent pool party. He's at 379 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: the pool party, he sees women, he takes pictures of 380 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: the women in their swimsuits, he looks them up online, 381 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: he finds their online friends and targets them. That's just 382 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: a coincidence. There is no coincidence in criminal law. McDonough right. 383 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 10: No, it's like the hunter who is trying to figure 384 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 10: out where the deer hang out. He's a statistic sexual predator, 385 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 10: and it starts with finding your victimology. It starts with 386 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 10: finding girls if that's going to be his victimology, and 387 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 10: then it's going to talk in his head. And I'm 388 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 10: talking about fantasy that he's going to tie it to 389 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 10: his model. And who's his model? Well, right now the 390 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 10: evidence is showing that it could be Ted Bundy. And 391 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 10: if that's the case, who was Ted Bundy stalking? He 392 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 10: was stalking sorority girls. And now the very first murder. 393 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 10: If Brian Kolberger's your guy, he picks a house with 394 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 10: five girls and is the pool party connected, Well, we 395 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 10: don't know yet, but we know he was organized. And 396 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 10: we go back to the sheath for a moment. If 397 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 10: Xanna is the gal that walked up and disturbed him. 398 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 10: That's probably the time he dropped the sheet and that's 399 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 10: when it went disorganized and he probably, if in fact, 400 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 10: he chased her, that was the time, and that probably 401 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 10: explains how the sheath got there in the first place. 402 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: So is it past possibility. No, it's a probability. 403 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 10: And it's also a probability that when he was taking 404 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 10: that secondary selfie that we're going to find a lot 405 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 10: of information on that digital footprint of his phone. And 406 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 10: it won't surprise me. The type of porn that we 407 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 10: find on that phone is going to be very sadistic. 408 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 10: I guarantee you. 409 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: Oh, you're leading me to my next topic. The sadistic 410 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: type of porn found on his cell phone, like I'm 411 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: having sex with women while they're asleep, passed out, drugged. Well, okay, 412 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: not having sex, that's right, But hold on before I 413 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: put the cart before the horse. To Joshua Ritter joining 414 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: me a veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney, former prosecutor, and 415 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: the host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, and you can 416 00:26:54,520 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: find him at Josh Ritter e Sqesquire dot com. Josh 417 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Josh, take off your 418 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: defense hat. I'm taking off my prosecution hat. I'm trying 419 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: to understand what's happening. No wonder the judge blew a gasket. 420 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: And I don't blame the judge. That was a serious 421 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: leak to Dateline. It's not Dateline's fault. They're doing what 422 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: they do, right. Somebody leaked. Yeah, I mean we're talking 423 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: about cell phone porn, about raping women in their sleep 424 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: and when they're drugged. Found on his phone and these 425 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: women were attacked he thought, and they were going to 426 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: be asleep, right, But the nexus here, there is no 427 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 1: coincidence in criminal law, not that I've ever seen. I've 428 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: seen coincidences in life, but in crime. So he's at 429 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: a pool party that daddy arranged for him. Basically, he 430 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: goes to the pool party. He sees women in swimsuits. 431 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: Photos are taken of sorority girls, students in swimsuits online, 432 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: they're friends. Are these victims? The night of the party, 433 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: he's caught on his hell near the King wrote address, 434 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: and that starts the twenty three times he starts visiting there. 435 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: That's not a coincidence. 436 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 11: Yes, no, and no, And what you're outlining too and 437 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 11: pointing out I think he's going to be something that 438 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 11: the prosecution is going to need to make abundantly clear 439 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 11: to the Jersey because one big question I think everyone 440 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 11: has is what was the connection between this man? If 441 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 11: this is the suspect, if this is the person the 442 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 11: police believe is responsible for these grizzly murders, what's his 443 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 11: connection to these victims? Are you telling us that we're 444 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 11: to believe that this is a completely random crime and 445 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 11: we were not even talking about students that go to 446 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 11: the same college, that you could say that, hey, he 447 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 11: watched these. 448 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: And this was a big hole in the state's case 449 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: for many people. Of course, motive is not required for 450 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: the state to show that, but the jury wants it. 451 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: This could be feeling the whole How did he pick 452 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: these people? It's just what you're saying, Josh. 453 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 11: No, absolutely, because they're going to have to give the 454 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 11: jurors something. I don't think you can walk into this 455 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 11: trial with the idea that, hey, random people didn't live 456 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 11: near him, didn't go to class with him, he didn't 457 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 11: see them on a daily basis. We have no connection 458 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 11: between the suspect and these victims. But yeah, we want 459 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 11: you to believe that he's the one that committed the 460 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 11: crime here. Listen. I know there's other evidence at play, 461 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 11: and exactly what you said motive does not need to 462 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 11: be proved, but you got to somehow make a connection here, 463 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 11: because the randomness of this is the thing that's going 464 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 11: to be most troubling to people. The biggest question mark 465 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 11: in people's heads is why in the world would he 466 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 11: picked these three girls and one gentleman in a house 467 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 11: that he doesn't live near. If he doesn't have a 468 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 11: connection to them, doesn't go to class with them, doesn't 469 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 11: work with them, it just starts to create questions, and 470 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 11: as you know, questions can lead to doubt and then 471 00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 11: you start to have problems. 472 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: I know Coburger was rehashing what happened at that pool party, 473 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: because thanks for our friends over at NBC Dateline, we 474 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: actually hear from a woman that he contacted after the 475 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: pool party in a very awkward text exchange. Listen. 476 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 6: One of Coberger's WSU classmates met Coberger at a pool 477 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 6: party and had a few awkward exchanges with him. Holly 478 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 6: tells Coberger about a hiking group and the two exchange 479 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 6: numbers so Coburger can get involved. Holly receives one text 480 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 6: from Coberger, once again asking about the hiking group. Holly 481 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 6: now grateful she never responded. 482 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 8: It was almost overly formal. I really enjoy that activity, 483 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 8: so you know, can you follow up with me about 484 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 8: about that? 485 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: From our friends Addie Day Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 486 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 6: Brian Cooberger's Internet search history allegedly includes Ted Bundy as 487 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 6: well as non consensual sex pornography. In the weeks before 488 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 6: the murders, Coburger searched porn using keywords forced, passed out, drugged, 489 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 6: and sleeping. Coberger's Bundy search might have related to his 490 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 6: job as a teacher's assistant, or maybe he was looking 491 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 6: for his mother's op ed about Bundy. Coberger's phone history reveals, 492 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 6: days before his arrest, he searches for Britney Spears song criminal. 493 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: Okay, that doesn't really make any sense. So he's looking 494 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: up porn, doctor Bethany, non consensual sex, right, pornography, He's 495 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: looking up rape porn. Okay, that's what that's called. He's 496 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: looking up Ted Bundy. I mean, I've looked Ted Bundy 497 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: up maybe what a million times, so, and he's a criminologist, 498 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: so I'm okay with Ted Bundy search, but non consensual 499 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: rape porn looking up porn where the woman where the 500 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: rape is quote forced, where the woman is passed out, drugs, 501 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: drugged or sleeping. No, help me out, Bethany. And then 502 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: remember the factors and Ethan are attacked in their sleep. 503 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 3: What yes, remember the max factor air He had that 504 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 3: same deviant arousal pattern. He took all these videos of 505 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 3: himself with women passed out in his bed and he 506 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 3: was making these creepy movements over them. So, Nancy, when 507 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 3: somebody comes into my office who's had a brush with 508 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 3: the law, that there's an intersection between that and sex 509 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 3: and assault or they have a deviant arousal pattern, I 510 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 3: always ask them what type of pornography do you look at? 511 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 3: And then who are you in the scenario or the 512 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 3: vignette you're watching? Are you the passive person? Are you 513 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: the active person? Are you the person who's watching? And 514 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 3: it gives me a great deal of insight into the 515 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 3: deviant arousal pattern. In this case, he needs his victims 516 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 3: unaware of what he's doing. He wants to rape them 517 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 3: when they don't know he's there, and I'm getting he 518 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 3: wants to rape them. So is this the kind of 519 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 3: person who could really graduate in his offending pattern to 520 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 3: even more serious crimes like necrophilia, you know, abuse of 521 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 3: a corps, something where the sex assault victim does not 522 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 3: know that he's committing the crime, so he has complete 523 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 3: power and control over them. 524 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: Okay, you know, uh, Ridder, you better put your defense 525 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: hat back on. There's really not coming back from a 526 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: guy suspected of murdering four people, three girls that live 527 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: in the home in their sleep while hours before he 528 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: is looking up rape porn where the victims are passed out, 529 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: drugged and or sleeping. Good luck with that, Ridder. 530 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 11: Well, I mean what I will say is the porn, 531 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 11: though disturbing, What does that have to do with the 532 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 11: crime scene other other than you're saying that the targets 533 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 11: of the crime are females. There is there. 534 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: Allegations of sexual assault past. 535 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 11: That he made them unconscious. I mean the fact that 536 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 11: a crime scene happens to have four females or three 537 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 11: females part of me again and one male that are 538 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 11: believed to be sleeping and maybe we're finding out not now, 539 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 11: is somehow we're going to we're going to tether in 540 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 11: nexus between that and the idea that he was looking 541 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 11: up disturbing porn. I just don't listen. The disturbing porn 542 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 11: bothers me. The crime scene bothers me. I just don't 543 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 11: see the connection between the two. If the prosecution is 544 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 11: going to try to, you know, thread that needle, I 545 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 11: think they're going to have a tough time convincing jurors 546 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 11: of the same thing. 547 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: Bethony Marshall helped me out because Ritter is dancing all 548 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: around the fact that this guy was obviously sexually frustrated. 549 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: He keeps trying to connect with women he can't. He 550 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: had a horrible record back home. Remember he got kicked 551 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: out of a bar for asking women where they lived 552 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: and telling one woman one woman had a date with 553 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: him and he told her she had great breeders' hips. 554 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: I mean, he obviously has a problem connecting with women, 555 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: and you know that must have frustrated him. No end 556 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: taking pictures of girls in their swimsuits, free key. But 557 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: the connection between looking up just before the murders rape 558 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: porn where the women are drug passed out or asleep 559 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: and quote forced his search, not my words, his and 560 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: these girls being targeted what he thought was going to 561 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: be in their sleep, in their sleep. Girls that he 562 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: had connected to I believe online. Whether he had any 563 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: conversation with them online, I don't know, but friends of 564 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: girls at the pool party. He's a criminologist. He knows 565 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: better than to attack anyone he just met at a 566 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: pool party. It would be too obvious. Get it, There 567 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: is there's a connection here. 568 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 3: I get it. One possible victim led to another, maybe 569 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 3: like somebody who's trolling the streets for a certain type 570 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 3: and they see a sex worker who's out there, and 571 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 3: so they're not going to target that victim. They're going 572 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 3: to be friend that victim and learn who that's victim, 573 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 3: and learn who that victim's friends are. Right, they're going 574 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,919 Speaker 3: to go down the rabbit hole of people who are 575 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 3: more and more obscure and unidentifiable, bit nanty. When offenders offend, 576 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 3: they look at the type of porn that's going to 577 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 3: prime them for the offense. Pedophiles will look at pictures 578 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 3: of children on the line, Rapists will look at assault. 579 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 3: Men who want to commit murder homicide will look at 580 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 3: maybe college students or maybe Ted Bundy. So looking at 581 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 3: the pornography that the offender is using to arouse themselves 582 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 3: ahead of time. That is so vital and so important. 583 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 3: Hopefully a forensic psychologists will be on the stand to 584 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 3: testify to this. 585 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: And we can't ignore that he's looking up Ted Bundy 586 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: and girls being attacked in their sleep and Ted Bundy's 587 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: my most infamous crime is attacking the sleeping sorority girls 588 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 1: at the ki Omega House in their sleep. Well speaking 589 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: a foreign language, here is anybody getting this? He's looking 590 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: up Bundy. He's looking up porn, rape porn, Where the 591 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: girls are, the victims are asleep, drug passed out, And 592 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 1: that's what Bundy did. And we can't ignore Joe Scott 593 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: Morgan that he's looking up Ted Bundy and girls being 594 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: attacked in their sleep, and Ted Bundy's my most infamous 595 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: crime attacking the sleeping sorority girls at the kai Omega 596 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: House in their sleep. Well, I speaking a foreign language, 597 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: here is anybody getting this? He's looking up Bundy, He's 598 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: looking up porn, rape porn, Where the girls are, the 599 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: victims are asleep, drug passed out, And that's what Bundy did. 600 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 7: Yeah, he did. However, going back to the photo Nancy, 601 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 7: the hoodie photo that we mentioned off the top. One 602 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 7: of the names that came to mind with me was 603 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 7: Ted Kazinsky with Unibomber. You know, Zinsky. Kazinsky had a 604 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 7: PhD in mathematics as well as a master's degree, and 605 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 7: was very bright, socially awkward those sorts of things, and 606 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 7: probably and I think if you read through his you know, 607 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 7: his statements that he made he saw himself as above 608 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 7: everybody else, that everybody else were these kind of groundlings 609 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 7: that were out there that were not worthy of his time. 610 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 7: It seems to me that there's kind of a pattern 611 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 7: with this and the destructive nature of what union Bobber did. 612 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 7: You know, kind of it came out of the blue. 613 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 7: You think about this attack at night where people are asleep. 614 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 7: This is out of the blue. This guy thinks he's 615 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 7: going to escape and not be caught. It's the height 616 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 7: of arrogance. So you know, I think that yeah, Bundy, Yeah, 617 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 7: he was a law student, a failed law student. I 618 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 7: don't think that Coburger intellectually would see himself at that level. 619 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 7: Would he would raise it the bar higher? Probably more 620 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 7: like the Unibomber to Howard Bloom. 621 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 1: The coincidences are startling that he is searching Bundy, and 622 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: then he starts searching rape porn where the victims are 623 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 1: passed out, asleep or drugged. And then these girls, much 624 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: like the Ted Bundy victims, are sorority girls living in 625 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: a house. He believes they are all going to be 626 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: asleep when he enters. 627 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 2: Is it just a con or is it something that 628 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 2: a jewelry will decide to send a man to the 629 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 2: firing squad? Now going even to the pool party pictures. 630 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 2: When I was interviewing people at the who attended the 631 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 2: pool party, and I was trying to get a sense 632 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 2: of who was there, one of the first things they 633 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,919 Speaker 2: did was show me pictures of women in bathing suits 634 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 2: that they had on their phone, and I said, these 635 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 2: are the women who were there. 636 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 11: You should check them out. 637 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 2: They too had pictures of women at the pool party 638 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 2: on their phone. 639 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: Can I speak to bloom Bloom? Did they also then 640 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: go that night to friends of the women at the 641 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: pool party, I start stalking their home in the dark 642 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: of night. Did they also look up rape porn where 643 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: the victims were in bed to sleep? You know, before the. 644 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 2: Actually everything you're saying, you're building a case against them, 645 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 2: it might turn out to be true. 646 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 4: But I'm also saying you questions because you're situation is 647 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 4: using to business and everybody at the pool party did 648 00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 4: the same thing. 649 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: Well they did it. 650 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 2: I'm suggesting that a good defense attorney will raise all 651 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 2: these questions to a jury, and a jury will then 652 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 2: have to decide based on these questions, is this enough 653 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 2: to send a man in front of the firing squad? 654 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: No, that is not the law. The law is the 655 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: jury will determine if it's enough to convict him. This 656 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: will be a bifer kated trial, and once there is 657 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: a conviction, then they will decide the sentence will be. 658 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: Not to consider the death penalty, they have to consider 659 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: it guilt or innocence first. And I hardly think these 660 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: photos are going to send them to the firing squad. 661 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,959 Speaker 1: It's going to be as DNA man on the nine 662 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: under the victim's body. 663 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 2: That's the interesting question, is the DNA and what the 664 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 2: defense is going to say, how did the DNA get there? 665 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 2: And that's what they're going to try to argue. But 666 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 2: all these other issues of the photos I think are 667 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 2: immaterial and irrelevant to the trial. And that's why I 668 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 2: think the charges. 669 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, tell that to the victims' families, and now we 670 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peery, el Paso 671 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Colorado, shot and killed in the line of duty. 672 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: A US Army vet. He is behind grieving wife Megan, 673 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: and two beautiful children sent us to life without their father. 674 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: American hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peery. Nancy Gray signing off 675 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: goodbye friend.