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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: You know, every so often an article comes along that

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Speaker 1: you just can't stop thinking about. That happened to me

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Speaker 1: recently when I read Rachel Aviv's newest piece from The

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Speaker 1: New Yorker. It's called How an Ivy League School Turned

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Speaker 1: Against a Student. It tells the story of Mackenzie Fierston,

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Speaker 1: who grew up in a privileged St. Louis suburb and

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Speaker 1: ended up in foster care after allegedly being abused by

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Speaker 1: her mother, a prominent local radiologist, and her mother's boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: Mackenzie eventually won a full scholarship to the University of

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and a Rhodes scholarship to study at Oxford, and

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Speaker 1: that's when her story took yet another turn. After facing

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Speaker 1: accusations that her depiction of her past was inaccurate, Mackenzie

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Speaker 1: lost her Rhodes scholarship and is now in the midst

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Speaker 1: of a legal battle with penn Beyond the specifics of

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Speaker 1: Mackenzie's heroine story, though her experience raises a lot of

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Speaker 1: thorny issues about the politics of higher education and our

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Speaker 1: assumptions about race and class regarding abuse. I talked with

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Speaker 1: Mackenzie for two hours, and it wasn't always an easy conversation,

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Speaker 1: but I wanted to give her the space to fully

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Speaker 1: share her story. We covered some of the most painful

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Speaker 1: and traumatic moments of her past. I greatly appreciate her

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Speaker 1: willingness to speak so candidly. Also a warning before we

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Speaker 1: get started. This conversation touches on physical and sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: which may be difficult for some listeners. Wow, Mackenzie, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what heroine fascinating and I have to say confusing story

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Speaker 1: UH in the New Yorker before we get into it.

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Speaker 1: What is the reaction been. Yeah, the reaction, honestly has

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Speaker 1: been overwhelming support. I've gotten hundreds or maybe even thousands

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Speaker 1: at this point of messages of solidarity and a lot

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Speaker 1: of other survivors sharing their stories and saying that they

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Speaker 1: feel seen and heard, And that was the most important

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Speaker 1: thing for me with sharing my story. So I think

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Speaker 1: that's probably been the most special part of the outreach

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Speaker 1: and reaction. Have you heard from your mother at all

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Speaker 1: since this was published. I haven't heard from anyone in

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Speaker 1: my family of origin or anyone from UH in an

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Speaker 1: official capacity for from the Roads Trust UM or directly

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Speaker 1: from penn althought indirectly. Uh, So I've mainly just been

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Speaker 1: hearing from people, uh, with support and a lot of

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Speaker 1: love and mutual outrage at the situation. Well, let's let's

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Speaker 1: back pedal and sort of talk about this profile. It

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Speaker 1: was written by Rachel aviv Um. It's in the New Yorker.

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Speaker 1: I'd encourage everyone listening to this to read the full

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Speaker 1: article because it goes into great detail about your story.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about your personal journey, and

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Speaker 1: then we can talk about some of the bigger systemic

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Speaker 1: issues at play. You grew up in St. Louis. Tell

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Speaker 1: me a little bit, Mackenzie about your childhood. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: I grew up primarily with my biological mother in St. Louis,

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Speaker 1: as you said, for most of my life, and my

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Speaker 1: her and my bio dad separated when I was about six,

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Speaker 1: so he wasn't very present in my life. Was a

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Speaker 1: lot of difficult things that happened with him as well. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I went to a monetary school and I was younger,

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Speaker 1: and that was kind of the start of my very

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Speaker 1: close relationship with teachers, which was just a really big

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Speaker 1: saving grace for me throughout. I would say my entire

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Speaker 1: childhood and school was definitely always an outlet for me.

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Speaker 1: And then I ended up moving to school named Whitfield,

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Speaker 1: which is seven or six through twelve, and I went

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Speaker 1: there starting in seventh grade, which is a private school

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Speaker 1: in St. Louis County. And yeah, then I was living

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Speaker 1: with my bio mom. She also started dating UM, a

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Speaker 1: man who turned out to be very abusive, and things

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Speaker 1: began to also escalate with her over time. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: there were troubles with your biological father as well. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us about that. Yeah, there was a degree

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Speaker 1: of abuse with him as well. And it was interesting

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Speaker 1: because a dynamic UM that became very prevalent was being

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Speaker 1: really a meshed with my bio mom because it felt

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Speaker 1: like I needed to have one parent at least that

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Speaker 1: felt like a safe space for me UM. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, in my early years there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of closeness or kind of a feeling of the lesser

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Speaker 1: of two um evils for lack of a better better term.

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Speaker 1: And so I would say, you know, when I was younger,

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Speaker 1: we were pretty close and there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: UM care between us, and sometimes I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: missed in talking about abuses it's oftentimes just talked about

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Speaker 1: as this one sided you know, everything was terrible and

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Speaker 1: you kind of missed like the nuances of feeling, you know,

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Speaker 1: the feelings of love and care also existing in the

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Speaker 1: space of trauma and abuse and harm. It seems as

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Speaker 1: if you grew up in quite an affluent saying that

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Speaker 1: your mom is a very well respected member of the community.

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Speaker 1: Um was exceedingly charming. Uh, people treated her with deference

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Speaker 1: and respect. Can you sort of just give us a

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Speaker 1: sense of what it was like growing up Mackenzie, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was definitely. Um, you know the case I kind

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Speaker 1: of in Rachel said, you know, related the sentiment in

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Speaker 1: her story of kind of feeling people perceived us as

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Speaker 1: like the Gilmore girls, Um of kind of you know

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Speaker 1: this mom, single mom and her precocious daughter, and you know,

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Speaker 1: definitely growing up in this upper middle class home and

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Speaker 1: doing the things that are typically associated with that, like

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Speaker 1: playing sports and you know, going to private school and

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Speaker 1: being involved in a bunch of different activities and going

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Speaker 1: to school with a lot of people who were upper

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Speaker 1: middle class, were were very wealthy, um, and didn't really

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Speaker 1: have many experiences that I had at home, or I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that some of them did and I didn't know

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Speaker 1: about it. UM. So it was an odd dynamic because

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Speaker 1: one just even having a single mother in that community

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Speaker 1: was a little bit um, I don't know, odd out

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Speaker 1: of the ordinary, sometimes looked down upon. UM. And she

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Speaker 1: wasn't very involved in my school life like a lot

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Speaker 1: of the parents were there of like, you know, volunteering

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Speaker 1: for different events, they're planning different things, and so she

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Speaker 1: didn't have a strong relationship with the community. UM. But

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Speaker 1: it was also odd because you know, when she did

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Speaker 1: have interactions, she was so charming. UM. And I think

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Speaker 1: was highly regarded because of her profession and the socio

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Speaker 1: economic privilege that we had. Tell me a little bit

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Speaker 1: about her profession, what she does and um, sort of

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Speaker 1: can you give us some background about her profession. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so she is a radiologist. She did has done breast

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Speaker 1: radiology I think for most of her career. Feel free

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Speaker 1: to fact check me on that. Um. That's as as

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Speaker 1: long as I remember her doing radiology, I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: it was breast radiology. So at the time she was

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Speaker 1: uh the director of the breast center I believe at St.

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Speaker 1: Luke's Hospital, which is one of the hospitals in St. Louis.

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Speaker 1: So she had a big job. Yes, she did have

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Speaker 1: a big job. Went to alblems really start in your home.

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Speaker 1: I in retrospect, there were always problems. I just didn't

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Speaker 1: really have the tools to name them. Um. And like

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Speaker 1: I said, there were smaller things, you know, that happened,

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Speaker 1: smaller things that happened over the years that I didn't

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Speaker 1: really notice as behavior that wasn't acceptable, um, because that

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Speaker 1: was just the reality. And that was especially the case

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Speaker 1: with you know, uh my with carry my bio mom

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Speaker 1: dating her fiance for so long, and the things that

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Speaker 1: happened with him, and just feeling like it was normalized

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Speaker 1: for those to be ignored. Um. And So I guess

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can even identify a moment

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Speaker 1: of like when it began to get worse. It was

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Speaker 1: just over time I started to become more aware of

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Speaker 1: what wasn't okay and UM. But I will say in

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Speaker 1: high school is when things started to escalate more than

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Speaker 1: they had in the past. So can you describe some

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Speaker 1: of your experiences. I know, again the article goes into

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Speaker 1: great detail about some of the things that you told

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Speaker 1: Rachel had happened to you during the course of your childhood.

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Speaker 1: Primarily as you mentioned, in your teenage years, and they

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Speaker 1: sound pretty harrowing. Can you give us a few examples

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Speaker 1: of of what you have to endure in your own home? Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: I mean one that Rachel mentioned in the article, Um,

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Speaker 1: and I experienced sexual abuse from her partner for as

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Speaker 1: long as he was in the picture, which started when

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Speaker 1: I was in the seventh grade. UM, And it was

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Speaker 1: often on But there was a particular incident, UM, where

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Speaker 1: I woke up and he was on top of me, UM,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't end up getting away, And it was

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Speaker 1: one of the times I did call um my mom

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Speaker 1: and tell her what had happened, and I just remember

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Speaker 1: she just started laughing, UM and telling me that she

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Speaker 1: was honor that he had gotten her confused with her

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old daughter. UM. And it wasn't something we

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Speaker 1: ever spoke about again, that specific incident. And and was

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Speaker 1: it a frequent occurrence or was this sporadic? Can you

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Speaker 1: give me some kind of sense of how often this

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Speaker 1: was happening and how aware your mom was about these

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Speaker 1: various incidents. Yeah, it was pretty frequent. Um. There were

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Speaker 1: times when it was more frequent than others, And I

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Speaker 1: think there was UM, she was aware, and there were

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Speaker 1: also I'm sure cognitive dissonance of not you know, wanting

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Speaker 1: to see or hear what was going on UM. And

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Speaker 1: so eventually I gave up trying to talk about it

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Speaker 1: or to tell her about it, especially because there's obviously

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Speaker 1: so much shame that's involved. And I just for so

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Speaker 1: many years until honestly recently, UM felt so guilty and

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Speaker 1: I Raciel also mentioned the sentiment that I relate, and

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Speaker 1: it does. I think about it a lot. But I've

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Speaker 1: heard people compare, you know, like a cute assault to

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Speaker 1: the strupturing or losing of yourself, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: the long term child abuse while you're brain is still

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Speaker 1: developing and there's so much you're learning about yourself. I

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Speaker 1: felt like there wasn't a self to begin with, and

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Speaker 1: not that either is you know, better or worse, they're

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Speaker 1: just different. And I felt like there wasn't. I felt

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Speaker 1: like I was just writing as a passenger in my

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Speaker 1: own body, and like there was I was just this

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Speaker 1: hollow person that would you know, an assault would happen,

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Speaker 1: and I would go to school and like beyond student

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Speaker 1: government and go play my soccer game, and I really

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Speaker 1: was the queen of compartmentalization, and in part that was

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Speaker 1: because of all the shame and the guilt that I

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Speaker 1: had and carried for so long. That was what your

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Speaker 1: wellness director at your high school said about you, this

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Speaker 1: queen of compartmentalization and school in many ways we can see,

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Speaker 1: became a refuge for you where you could really channel

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Speaker 1: your I guess your full self and and have almost

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Speaker 1: a separate life. Yes, it definitely was a separate a

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Speaker 1: separate life in some ways. And the teachers at my school,

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Speaker 1: especially because I got to be there over a period

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Speaker 1: of six years and really got to establish deeper relationships,

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Speaker 1: and also because of my feeling like I had a

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Speaker 1: lack of relationship I think I was. It was in

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Speaker 1: part a trauma response of like I need some stable

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Speaker 1: adult to have a to have a connection with um.

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Speaker 1: And so I established very deep relationships with with my teachers,

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Speaker 1: and they gave me different parts of what parents would

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Speaker 1: give to their kids, at least what I think parents

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Speaker 1: are tip to their kids at different times over the years.

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Speaker 1: And we're all so the first people to believe me

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Speaker 1: and make me feel like I was worthy of something

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Speaker 1: more than what was happening to me, and that I

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Speaker 1: was more than just what was happening to me. More

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Speaker 1: with Mackenzie Pearston when we come back. During this period,

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Speaker 1: you were also experiencing really serious physical abuse by your mom.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that, Mackenzie, Yeah, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: definitely is hard to talk about, UM. But like I said,

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Speaker 1: it did get worse over time UM, and I think

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Speaker 1: Rachel does a good job of, you know, relaying that

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Speaker 1: sort of trajectory of when it started and how it developed, UM.

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Speaker 1: And when it started to get worse was my freshman

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Speaker 1: and the sophomore year of high school, and it became

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Speaker 1: impossible to hide UM, like showing up with bruises and

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Speaker 1: black eye and teachers, you know, are mandatory reporters and

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Speaker 1: so they had to report things like that. UM, and

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Speaker 1: in retrospect didn't for a long time, even though there

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Speaker 1: were things now, you know, having I just graduated UM,

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Speaker 1: and I studied social work and you learn a lot

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Speaker 1: about signs of child abuse or trauma at home, and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about this a lot in the last year.

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of opportunities and things that were

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Speaker 1: glaring signs very early on, as early as seventh grade,

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Speaker 1: and none of that was ever really acknowledged or reported.

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Speaker 1: And one example I came to that came to mind was,

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Speaker 1: you know, I went through everything I could find in

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Speaker 1: my computer when Rachel was writing the article, and I

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Speaker 1: found this sketch that I had written in seventh grade

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Speaker 1: for my theater class, and it was talking about horrible

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Speaker 1: emotional abuse from a mother to her daughter. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think of any other a child who looked different

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Speaker 1: or had, you know, wasn't an upper middle class white

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Speaker 1: woman um or their mom was in an upper middle

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Speaker 1: class white woman doctor would have been an immediate red flag.

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Speaker 1: To have this monologue that was so visceral and descriptive.

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Speaker 1: And I I don't think I was able to name

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Speaker 1: that honestly until really recently, because my teachers did do

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Speaker 1: so much for me and the adults did so much

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Speaker 1: for me in my life. And that is true as

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Speaker 1: well as that a lot was overlooked because of the

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Speaker 1: inherent biases that we all have. And you know, race

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Speaker 1: and class and profession tells you to look at not

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Speaker 1: upper middle class white people as the traditional person who

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Speaker 1: can do harm um. And so it's interesting to look

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Speaker 1: back and see that there were a lot of signs

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Speaker 1: for a long time UM. But at some point it

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Speaker 1: became impossible to hide. What were some of the other

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Speaker 1: physical manifestations you had that I assume started to tip

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Speaker 1: teachers off as time went on, Yeah, some of it,

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Speaker 1: I think, UM. And again these weren't things that I

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Speaker 1: was able to identify as signs until much later, and

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Speaker 1: even learning about it from more of a like academic

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Speaker 1: or professional level studying social work UM and in therapy,

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Speaker 1: which thank goodness for therapy. UM. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: it was also, you know, signs of the sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: as well as just having you know, like I hated hugs.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want anyone to get near me or touched me.

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Speaker 1: I had an ob seeing startle response. I could never sleep,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't eat, I didn't want to go home. I

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Speaker 1: always wanted to be at school as much as possible. UM.

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Speaker 1: And people started to observe that over time, and eventually

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Speaker 1: I ended up disclosing to one of my history teachers

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Speaker 1: my sophomore year a little bit. M was kind of

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Speaker 1: dipping my towel in the water of like, there's something

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Speaker 1: going on at home. I can't talk about it, but

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, getting scared and I need help, And

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Speaker 1: she connected me with like you said the wellness director

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Speaker 1: at our school, you kept a journal in high school.

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Speaker 1: And the New Yorker piece includes a number of the

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Speaker 1: passages you wrote. What prompted you to keep this journal?

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Speaker 1: And what has it been like for you going back

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Speaker 1: and rereading some of these countries. It's been really difficult

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Speaker 1: to reread some of them because obviously it wasn't I mean,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't read it since this all happened, I maybe

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Speaker 1: even since I wrote it. Um, And it was really

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Speaker 1: difficult now a number of years later to go back

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Speaker 1: and see how much my younger self was hurting and

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Speaker 1: was being hurt, and how much shame and guilt there was. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I started it because the wellness director said, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're not going to talk about it, at least

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Speaker 1: you can write about it, and they'll be some kind

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Speaker 1: of outlet to you. And it took It took me

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Speaker 1: a little bit because at first I just thought to myself,

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Speaker 1: this is dumb. Why would I do this? And I

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Speaker 1: then I was convinced someone was going to find the journal. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I don't remember exactly what happened, but something happened,

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Speaker 1: and I just felt like I was gonna implode on myself,

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Speaker 1: and like I needed to get it out in some fashion,

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Speaker 1: and I definitely didn't feel ready to get it out

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Speaker 1: in a verbal or a sense that someone else would

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Speaker 1: hear it. And so I started writing a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what I felt. You came to school with a

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Speaker 1: bloody and battered face, and that represented a huge turning

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Speaker 1: point for you, Mackenzie, and for your situation. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell us about that. I had finally decided the day

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Speaker 1: before that I was ready to, for lack of a

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Speaker 1: better term, go on the record or talk about what

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Speaker 1: had happened. And Um, two days before I had disclosed

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Speaker 1: to one of my teachers the sexual abuse that was

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Speaker 1: happening at home and so she had, you know, had

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Speaker 1: to report it. They called the police. The police came

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Speaker 1: out and took report at her house. And the next

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Speaker 1: day when I went to school, and I told the

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Speaker 1: will less director that I was ready, like I couldn't

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Speaker 1: do this anymore, um, and it was just getting worse.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, so I met with UM the Child Productive

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Speaker 1: Services at school that day and told them what had

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Speaker 1: been going on, and they said there was a special

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Speaker 1: victims detective who was going to come talk to me

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Speaker 1: the next day, but she wasn't available that day UM,

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Speaker 1: and so the plan was for me to go home,

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Speaker 1: um and and get some things and then go spend

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Speaker 1: the night at my friend's house. And it ended up

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00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 1: I found out like last minute, my friend wasn't able

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Speaker 1: to like she wasn't home or friend her parents weren't home.

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Speaker 1: That's what it was. And I also knew that was

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Speaker 1: the first place that um, Carrie would look if I

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Speaker 1: didn't come home, And so I was worried that if

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Speaker 1: I went to her house or I didn't go to

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Speaker 1: her house UM and I went somewhere else, that she

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Speaker 1: would show up and that friend would I don't know,

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Speaker 1: get into trouble or being home's way. UM. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I ended up going home and that was my bio.

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Speaker 1: Mom said she knew I had been talking um and

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Speaker 1: I don't remember, you know, all of what happened. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure, like to this day. UM. I know that Henry,

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00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 1: her fiance, had a lot of connections to the local

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00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: police department, which was also in part why I was

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00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: so scared to tell anyone, because I didn't I think

335
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: even if someone believed me, that anything would happen to

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00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: him and that was something he told me. It was like,

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00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what you say. I have trained. I

338
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: worked with X y Z police officer, and I recently

339
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: found out is something he told other women who he hurts.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like that is a recurrent theme. UM.

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Speaker 1: And he also had a gun, and he got my

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00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: bio mom a gun for her birthday. And there was

343
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: just so much fear, um, both in a physical sense,

344
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: but also in the sense of most survivors already feel

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00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 1: like we're not going to be believed. And then when

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00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: it's added in that you have your abusers have friends

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00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: at the police department. Um, it's not exactly helpful or

348
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 1: encouraging and coming forward or seek help. UM. So that's

349
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: been my theory, but you know, I don't know for sure. UM.

350
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Speaker 1: And then you went and your mom, Yeah, yes, that

351
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: was the night um, that the biggest episode of violence happened. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I drove to school the next day, which I

353
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: don't really remember. UM. The only thing I really remember

354
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Speaker 1: is waking up in my room and in the middle

355
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Speaker 1: of the night, UM, and then trying to crawl over

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Speaker 1: the door and lock lock it and UM, then her

357
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: telling me in the morning, I'm taking the keys and

358
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Speaker 1: I'm calling you and sick to school. Um. Yeah, and

359
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: then I guess I ended up driving, just getting a

360
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: spare key and driving school. Um. And then I showed

361
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: up to the this teacher who had been helping me

362
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: her room and passed out. Uh. And then was in

363
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: the hospital for a couple of weeks and then foster care.

364
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: There was an incident where a social worker was dispatched

365
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: to your moms to your house. When did that happen

366
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: and what happened? So that happened in March of my

367
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Speaker 1: sophomore year of high school, and I showed up to

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Speaker 1: school with a black eye, and of course tried to

369
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: cover it up, as I always did, but it was

370
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: pretty dark, so it showed through the cover up and

371
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: teachers began to notice pretty quickly. Uh. And in the

372
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Speaker 1: middle of the day during my Spanish class, the wellness

373
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Speaker 1: structure that you've mentioned pulled me out of Spanish class

374
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Speaker 1: and asked me what happened. And the story that Carriett

375
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: told me to tell was that I fell playing with

376
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Speaker 1: my dogs and hit my head on the table, and

377
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: so that was what I told her, And she said,

378
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,239
Speaker 1: are you sure that's where you're gonna stick with you

379
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: really need to tell the truth. And I just said yes,

380
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: And she told me she had to report it to

381
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: Child Protective Services and I just said, okay, fine, do

382
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: whatever you have to do. I was mad, um, even

383
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: though I know in retrospect understand that's what she had

384
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: to do. UM. And then I went back to class,

385
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: and I had soccer practice, and then I was also

386
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: in the musical, the school musical. So I went to

387
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: musical rehearsal and I got a call from UM or

388
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,239
Speaker 1: cameraphons to call her. A text from UM Carrie that

389
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: was just like rage of like you need to get

390
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: home right now. There's a social worker at home. She's

391
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: asking me questions like get home right now. So I

392
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: came home immediately, and I got home and they were

393
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: in the living room just gabbing like they were old friends. UM.

394
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: And this social worker was also a white woman. UM.

395
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, by the time I got there, I that

396
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: she had already related the story if I fell. I

397
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: had been playing with dogs. And I sat down in

398
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: the living room. She asked me if that was what happened.

399
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: I said yes, because what you know, I would have

400
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: said that probably anyway. But also Carrie was in the room, um,

401
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: and then she said, this is my dream case and

402
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: I wish they were all this easy, and I'm sorry

403
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: for bothering you, and she left. So that was pretty

404
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: discouraging U to have that encounter after you were discharged

405
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: from the hospital. What happened? So when I was discharged,

406
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: I went to my first foster home, and that was

407
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: with a family who had another foster child and then

408
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: two of their buyout children who were there over you.

409
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: At that point, I had just turned I was like

410
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: a month past seventeen. That must have been so strange

411
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: for you. Sure, you are a junior in high school

412
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: and suddenly you find yourself in a foster home. What

413
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: was that? Like, Mackenzie, I honestly felt so detached and

414
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: numb that it was hard to even feel anything. At

415
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: the time. I felt overwhelmed and this devastating and overwhelming

416
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: feeling of guilt because I just felt like both free

417
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: and that the truth was finally out there, but also

418
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: like I had ruined her life and his life, and

419
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: was were people going to believe me? You know? When

420
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: I went back to school, and like I mentioned, there

421
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: was still so much shame and guilt and that is

422
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: the overwhelming feeling. I remember when I when I was

423
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: feeling things and wasn't feeling detached, I would just have

424
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: these waves of anxiety and shame for what was happening.

425
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: Did you have any contact with your mom at all

426
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: when you were living in the foster home. No, I

427
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: didn't have any contact with her at all. And how

428
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: were you treated by your foster family? Yeah? They you know,

429
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: they did their best. It was there was a a

430
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: lot going on in their house, um, and so they

431
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: did their best. But I started pretty quickly feeling kind

432
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: of overwhelmed by just the chaos of their house and

433
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: just leaving for days at a time. UM. So I

434
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: would often go stay with one of my friends. Uh.

435
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: And they made me a room at their house, and um, yeah,

436
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to stay with them as much as I could.

437
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: And then other times I would just kind of rotate

438
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: between different friends houses and stay at a different friends

439
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: house each day, just so I didn't have to be there. Um.

440
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: And it was familiar, because, like you said, it's extremely

441
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: scary to just be dropped in this family you've never

442
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: met before or known and doesn't really know anything about you.

443
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: And there was at least familiarity and the friends that

444
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: I was staying with. Did everyone in the school community

445
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: know what was going on in your life and what

446
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: had happened? Yes, they definitely did, in part because the

447
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: school is pretty small. There's was only a little over

448
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: seventy people in my grade, and it was on the

449
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: news that she was arrested, and so there was an

450
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: article about it. And I also then learned when I

451
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: got back to school that she had hired a defense

452
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: attorney who was the father of someone in my grade. Uh,

453
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: and so everyone knew very quickly what had happened and

454
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: had opinions about what had happened because of that. How

455
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: were you treated by your classmates? At first? I was

456
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: treated pretty well, and there was like a pretty overwhelming

457
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: sense of support, and I felt like it was pretty widespread,

458
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: and I really didn't encounter any negativity until a few

459
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: months in because initially there were criminal charges that were

460
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: filed against her um and then they ended up being

461
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: dropped several months later, right before it was going to

462
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: go in front of a grand jury, And it felt

463
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: like in the month or so leading up to that,

464
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: there was there started to be a shift among certain people,

465
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: including one of my best friends at the time, UM,

466
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: who just started to not talk to me. Then there

467
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: was an anonymous Snapchat account that someone made that started

468
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: sending me like pretty awful messages UM and calling me

469
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: names and all of the whole gamut um. And so

470
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: that was, you know, I think in the month leading

471
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: up to that, and then certainly after the charges were dropped,

472
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: and I felt like the sentiment started to shift from

473
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: pretty unanimous support to a divided people divided over believing

474
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: me and not believing me. That must have been pretty

475
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,719
Speaker 1: traumatic on top of everything else, to have what was

476
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: once a sanctuary from your home life become this I

477
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: don't know, court of public opinion and you're still a

478
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: teenage girl. Yeah, it was that. I felt pretty devastating,

479
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: to put it lightly, because it did feel like a

480
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: sanctuary for so many years, and I felt, you know,

481
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: like I had always been class representative in student government,

482
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: and I was captain of the soccer team, and I

483
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: was so invested in the community. And then to have

484
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 1: that dissipate um and both sort of the passive aggressive

485
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: just like people stopped talking to me, and my entire

486
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: friend group over time just stopped talking to me. UM.

487
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: I felt pretty awful, and it also makes you know

488
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: there's that I didn't know the word gaslight at the time,

489
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: but having that happen made me feel even more crazy

490
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 1: and more like, what's wrong with me? What did I

491
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: do wrong? I shouldn't have told anyone. I should have

492
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: just stayed there. And maybe I'm the crazy one. Maybe

493
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: I did. You know, you just do back flips in

494
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: your mind because you want anything other than what's the

495
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: truth to be true. And at the same time, I

496
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: also knew that there was no going back, and I

497
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: never wanted to go back to my home of origin

498
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: or anyone that I lived with. We'll be back in

499
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: a moment with more of my conversation with Mackenzie. Firston,

500
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: I was struck by a quote from one of your teachers.

501
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: This is what the teacher said, when you've grown up

502
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: with privilege and everything around you is pretty and pristine

503
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: and predictable, your tolerance for anything outside that world isn't

504
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: very high. People didn't want to deal with it anymore, Pete,

505
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 1: who had once supported her, You, mcken see, we're finding

506
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: excuses to turn their backs or walk away. And you

507
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: elaborate on that and what that teacher meant, I don't

508
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: think anyone wants to believe that a parent can do

509
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: that to their child, or anyone can do that to

510
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: their child, And when it's someone in your community, that

511
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: can be kind of a rocking reality for some people.

512
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: And you have to make a choice of either you're

513
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: going to acknowledge that and process that and understand how

514
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: these identities and privileges intersect and how race and class

515
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: and profession governs the justice system and who's belief or

516
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: you can create more cognitive distance and just say that

517
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: person's lying. They would never do that. This other person,

518
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: we know that they're nice, and that is the reaction

519
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: so many will get because we have this idea of

520
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: someone who causes harm is like the guy who leaps

521
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: out from behind the bushes late at night, or they

522
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: look a certain way because they're a person of color,

523
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: their low income, or whatever stereotypes media and the culture

524
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: has created about people who cause harm, which are obviously

525
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: not an accurate reflection of reality. Abuse and violence can

526
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: happen across all income levels and races and professions, and

527
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: we've seen that happen at time and time again over

528
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: the last few years with the Larry Nassars and Jeffrey

529
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: Epstein's and Woody Allen's and all of these people who

530
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: are you know, represent these like incredibly powerful elite identities,

531
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: and that's why they were able to cover up their

532
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: abuse for so long and render their survivors for their

533
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: invisible because they were the antithesis of what people imagine

534
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: or assume is someone who can abuse. While you were

535
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: in foster care in your junior and senior years, were

536
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: there some teachers who continued to support and embrace you,

537
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: for example, your wellness teacher or the teacher who made

538
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: that comment about people turning their backs? Did you feel

539
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,479
Speaker 1: supported by some members of your school community. I did,

540
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: and honestly, I felt incredibly supported by the teachers there.

541
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: I didn't really even when the community sentiment started to

542
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: turn like the families and the kids, yes, that was

543
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: who I felt more like the sentiment of disbelief and

544
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: shame was coming from. Whereas the teachers, I felt, We're

545
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: pretty consistent supporters and believers in me. I think where

546
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: your story becomes somewhat controversial is when you go to college.

547
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: You apply two pen and got a full ride at

548
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania and the president at the time,

549
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: Amy Gutman, defined her tenure in large part by her

550
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: efforts to aggressively address inequality. So what were your impressions,

551
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: Mackenzie of the school's efforts in this regard. Yeah, it

552
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: was interesting to a lot of us in the it's

553
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: pronounced Figley f g l I, which is the umbrella

554
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: term for first generation and or low income students. And

555
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: it was really hard to go there and show up

556
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: and have no little to no resources because it is

557
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: a fairly diverse community, Like people don't all have the

558
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: same stories. And my friend and Nia Moore had a

559
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: wonderful quote in the in the story about how different,

560
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: you know, Figley doesn't fit into one shaper size. But

561
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: something that was a pretty unanimous sentiment was feeling very

562
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: unsupported by the administration because we didn't we didn't feel

563
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,479
Speaker 1: like we're being supported enough, and we had to fight

564
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: for so much. Like when I got there, the all

565
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: the dining halls closed on holidays and we had at

566
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: least the first year students had to leave our dorms

567
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: over winter break. And for students who don't have, you know,

568
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: a safer study relationship with home, that's really hard and

569
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: it's a source of panic. And yeah, there were a

570
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: lot of things we had to fight for over the year,

571
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: and that is the keyword fight. It wasn't something that

572
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: we were hurt on the first time. And there was

573
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people who did a lot of organizing

574
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: and work to advocate students who organized and worked to

575
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: advocate for us. Let's talk about sort of the application

576
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: process before we you get into PEN. What was your

577
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: understanding mackenzie of what it meant to be first generation

578
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: low income something that you wrote on your application to

579
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania. Yeah, so just to clarify, I

580
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: actually had never heard that acronym or knew what it was.

581
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: So it wasn't my undergrad application but my grad application

582
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: that UM there was like a box of the controversial

583
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: box that I checked UM. Which it is confusing because

584
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: I applied to grad school my first semester of sophomore year, UM,

585
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: But the one when I was in high school applying

586
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: to college, I didn't even know what that term was. UM.

587
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: It wasn't something I had become aware of until I

588
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 1: think the months leading up to coming to PEN. UM.

589
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: But I was the coding system hadn't labeled me as

590
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 1: thickly um, which when you were applying as an undergraduate, right, yes,

591
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: And I applied through a program called Queste, which pairs

592
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: students who are in more vulnerable positions UM, like being

593
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: low income or first generation or having a different relationship

594
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: with home, um with like higher performing schools. So that

595
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: also is kind of was an added level of support.

596
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your college admissions essay, because you talked

597
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: a lot about your home life. M hm. You know,

598
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: I think there have been accusations, as you well know,

599
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: that that was embellished or exaggerated. Can you talk about

600
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: that and looking back on it, do you feel it

601
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: might have been in any way, shape or form. So yeah,

602
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: I guess just as context. Yeah, it was a poem

603
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: I wrote, UM, which was very cheesy about the healing

604
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: power of gratitude UM, which I feel like it is

605
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: almost cringe when I say now, because I'm like, oh

606
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: my gosh, seventeen year old genzi um. But so yeah,

607
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 1: the first two paragraphs are talking about when I, you know,

608
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: found myself in the hospital and looked at myself in

609
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: the mirror and just felt like I couldn't recognize myself um,

610
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: and then about the same teacher I referenced had told

611
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: me to make a gratitude list, and I was like,

612
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: what the funk are you talking? Why would I make

613
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: a gratitude list. I'm in the hospital and I in

614
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: my life fell over. Uh, And I decided, I guess

615
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 1: I have nothing to lose, and so I started making

616
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: a gratitude list while I was in the hospital, and

617
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: I made them every day for years, and it really

618
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: was such a healing thing for me, um, because it

619
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: also so often refocused me on the people who supported

620
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: me and not feeling alone. UM. So that was what

621
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: the yes I was and I have obviously read it

622
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: a zillion times in the last year and a half, um,

623
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: and it's yeah, it's accurate with medical records. And one

624
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: of the questions that carries the defense attorney asked me was, well,

625
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: could you really not recognize yourself, like when you looked

626
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: in the mirror? And yes, I could tell that it

627
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: was me, Like, I, you know, there was a mirror

628
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: and I was looking at it, um, but I you know,

629
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: there are bruises all over my face I had, there

630
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: was blood in my hair, and so it didn't feel

631
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: like me. And I think that was that was one

632
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: of the things that Penn's scrutinized um or I said

633
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: there was blood in my hair, and they said there

634
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: wasn't that much blood in my hair. So it was

635
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: really like down to these nitpicky things, um, which yeah,

636
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: we're not only true, but also you know, when you're

637
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: writing an experience of like your trauma, I think I

638
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: can say, like, I didn't recognize myself because I didn't,

639
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, like my myself as a human or like

640
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: as a person in that moment um. Yeah. I don't

641
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: know if that answers your question, but yeah, now it does.

642
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess so much of the controversy Mackenzie

643
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: focuses on this first generation low income assignation. When you

644
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: were put in that category or even check that category

645
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: for your graduate school application, what were you thinking in

646
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: terms of that characterizing your own experience. Yeah. So, because

647
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: I had been quoted as a Figley student right off

648
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: the bat, I was invited to a pre freshman program

649
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: which takes like Figley students or vulnerable students um and

650
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 1: brings them to campus about a month and a half early,

651
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: just because I think the university had some idea that

652
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: often students don't always have anywhere to go or don't

653
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 1: know what to do over the summer, and I wasn't

654
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: able to do that because I had a full time

655
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: job already that summer. But as soon as I got

656
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: to pen I started being invited to Figley events, uh,

657
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: and just was so welcomed by the community. And it

658
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: did feel like the first place where I felt like

659
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: these are my people, like they understand what it's like

660
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: to not necessarily have a home life or to be

661
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: on full aid, which was a little bit like there

662
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: was shame attached to that because there were so few

663
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: of us. It wasn't something he went around, you know,

664
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: saying like I'm a Figli student, UM, and and you know,

665
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: I'm working all the time and I have multiple jobs

666
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: and I can't do all the same extra extracurriculars you

667
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: can do because I'm working. UM. And they got that,

668
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: and they were experiencing things like that, and we all

669
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 1: had different experiences, but we had this shared experience at

670
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: Penn um of being in this like really elite space,

671
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 1: which some of you know understood from my previous background

672
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: and like knowledge of that, and also feeling like extremely

673
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: out of place as well. UM. So yeah, when I

674
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: applied to my grad school program. UM. I was nineteen

675
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 1: and UM. I started working on it after the summer

676
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: of my freshman year, after my freshman year UM, and

677
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: then submitted it first semester sophomore year UM. And the

678
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: essay part, which doesn't seem to be there's been no

679
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: controversy over that, UM, which because it was just a

680
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: question about why do you want to do social work?

681
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 1: And I wrote about why I wanted to do social

682
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: work UM and what I wanted to study and whatever.

683
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: But the controversial boxes is there's two demographic questions, and

684
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: one of them says like are you from a low

685
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: income family? And the other one says like are you

686
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: the first generation your family to attend college? UM. And

687
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: I had been meeting with the associate director of admissions

688
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: regularly and had asked her, like, how should I check

689
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: these boxes? You know, like I don't really know what

690
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 1: how to do this? And she said, you should check

691
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: both the boxes. They're not used for admission, but they're

692
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: used to for financial aid, and you should select what's

693
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: going to give you the most financially UM. And that

694
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: was consistent with when I asked her again and December

695
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: she said the same thing. UM. So I kind of

696
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 1: felt like, great, okay, this is why I'm supposed to

697
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,959
Speaker 1: do it was to check both the boxes. Um. And

698
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: what really got me hung up, I think also was

699
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: not just thinking like oh, this person told me to

700
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: do it, but it was also the word family, and

701
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't have one of those, Like

702
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: why would I ever reference them? Like why would I

703
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: think about them? They don't have anything to do with

704
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: me or who I am, um. And so I think

705
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: there was an added level of like genuine anger and

706
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: a need to like separate myself from them and not

707
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: acknowledge them in any way. UM. So I just checked

708
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: yes to both boxes and that was it and I

709
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: moved on. Um. There wasn't like a place to add

710
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: more information. So in retrospect, I'm like, I wish there

711
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: had been like a do you want to elaborate more box?

712
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: But there is yes or no, and like, at the time,

713
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: yes to both of those felt like the right answer. UM,

714
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: And eventually the pen like agreed, yes, you're definitely a

715
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: low income student, UM, Like thank you. UM. But it

716
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: was the first generation part in that box that there

717
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: has been controversy about. You must have been very conflicted

718
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: with the particularly with the first generation part. I'm assuming

719
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: the low income was true because you had no support

720
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: from your family to go to college, correct, Correct, And

721
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: no one could have paid your admission to the University

722
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania or any other school. Right. But the first

723
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 1: generation part is sort of the thorny part, right. And

724
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: I think I'm just curious if you felt conflicted about that,

725
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: or if you ever expressed to some of the other

726
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: students like, oh, like, you know, they put me in

727
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: this category, but I'm really not a first generation to

728
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: go to college. Yeah. I mean it's interesting because I

729
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: have never identified myself as a first generation student because

730
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:34,240
Speaker 1: it is complicated. And even though I fit into Penn's category,

731
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: like they have pretty extensive and expansive category of first

732
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: generation and I did fit their definition, it was something

733
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I identified with the experiences of

734
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: first generation in some ways. I felt like when I

735
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: got to college, like all these people were calling their

736
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: parents to like read over an email they're sending to

737
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: a professor or like help them with stuff, and I

738
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, what do I do? Um?

739
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: But like, you know, going into college, I did have

740
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: that understanding of what it means to navigate higher education. UM.

741
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: So that was why I never claimed like the first

742
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: generation part of thickly UM. It's an umbrella terms. You

743
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: don't say like I'm Lee or I'm like big UM,

744
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: so you just reference yourself as bigly. But besides like

745
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: that the box UM and at the time, like I

746
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: just felt like if I have to put myself in

747
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 1: a yes or no box, like that is what felt

748
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: truer UM at the moment, But it wasn't ever an

749
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: identity that I like claimed UM or like talked about

750
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: myself as having UM and my friends like didn't know

751
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: about my background and like my my who my bio

752
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: family was UM and some of what had happened to me,

753
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: and I was very private about it in terms of

754
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: like the abuse and a lot of that my friends

755
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: like literally learned about when the article came out UM,

756
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: which I gave them a warning. I was like, you know,

757
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: it's going to talk a lot about some of my

758
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: experiences of abuse UM. But they knew, you know, and

759
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: a lot of us like shared our different stories because

760
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: some of what is qualified as like low income for

761
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: first generation or like people's parents who were doctors in

762
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: another country, but then they came to this country and

763
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: their degrees aren't you know, Like everyone had these different experiences,

764
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: so within the big league community, it was pretty common

765
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: to share them, um and even just support one another

766
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: in terms of like navigating and trying to understand the

767
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: shared experience. You were obviously and are incredibly impressive student academically,

768
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 1: and in the summer of you decided to apply for

769
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: a Rhodes scholarship, and that November you were named as

770
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: one of thirty two scholar elects. Yes, what did that

771
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: mean to you? What was that like to be in

772
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: that small group of people. It definitely it felt like

773
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: a shock a little bit, um because all of these

774
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,760
Speaker 1: people who you know, also were named Road scholars were

775
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: amazing and just I could run a country, I mean, um,

776
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people have a little

777
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: bit of impostor syndrome even just being compared to all

778
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: of these incredibly brilliant and just incredible organizers and social

779
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,439
Speaker 1: justice UM oriented people. And so I felt a little

780
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: bit like anxious of almost like, oh my god, am

781
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: I really supposed to be here? But I also felt,

782
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: going back to my underground essay, extremely grateful um that

783
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to go and study what I

784
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: wanted to study, which was the Foster care to prison pipeline.

785
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: You got the Rhodes scholarship, and shortly after that there

786
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: was an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Yes, this is

787
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: why this story has layer upon layers. It's sort of

788
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: like and then and then. But this article started with

789
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: this sentence, Mackenzie Fearston grew up poor. Yes, you never

790
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: told the reporter that you grew up for why do

791
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: you think she came to that conclusion? So she did

792
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 1: actually talk to rachel Or sending emails my understanding, and um,

793
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: it was because I described myself as bigly and also

794
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: because Penn and their announcement described me as bigly. So

795
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: it seems like that was an assumption of if you're figly,

796
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: then you had to have grown up like that your

797
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 1: entire life. So did you talked to this reporter about

798
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: any circumstances surrounding your childhood and this very unusual, uh

799
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: series of events that led you to be completely cut

800
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 1: off from your mother from any kind of financial aid, etcetera, etcetera.

801
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: So the initial interview that we had was like about

802
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: twenty minutes. Um, and mostly was centered around what I

803
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 1: wanted to study. I said that I went into foster

804
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: care and mid high school. UM. And she asked me why,

805
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: and I just said, you know, it was really intribuse,

806
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: but I don't want to go into it and it

807
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: doesn't really feel relevant to what I want to study,

808
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: which is what you asked me about. UM. And that

809
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 1: was really the extent of anything we talked about related

810
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: to my background. And uh, it was the next day

811
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: when the article came out, UM, was when we had

812
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: a more extensive conversation and really went through the whole

813
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: life history with this reporter. Yes, with this reporter. Did

814
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: she ever follow up or correct the article it having

815
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 1: gotten more information from you? Because if I were reporting

816
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: that story, I would say this, this requires more exposition.

817
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. No. So the only time, at least

818
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: immediately that I heard from her was she just said,

819
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to give you a heads up.

820
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: There was no email. I unfortunately get these a lot,

821
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: so I'm not really planning to do anything about it. UM.

822
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,320
Speaker 1: And when she called me to tell me that was

823
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: when we had a longer conversation about birth to the

824
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: present UM and related the whole nuances, and yeah, to

825
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: this day, there has never been a correction on the article,

826
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: so it's still out there on the interwebs. Um, even

827
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: with obviously all this information, I can't tell you why

828
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: that is. She did correct the headline which I asked

829
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: her to correct, which said I grew up in foster care. Um,

830
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: and she did correct that, but there has never been

831
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: a correction on the group board part. Did you ever

832
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: claim in either your application or any kind of forms

833
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: or essays two pen that you quote unquote grew up

834
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: in foster care? Mackenzie No, I actually was pretty clear,

835
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: and I didn't remember when I first was that came out.

836
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: I was like, did I say something that was misleading?

837
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: And then I obviously went back and read through all

838
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: my stuff and on my undergrad application, I actually say

839
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: in multiple places that I went into foster care beginning

840
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 1: of my junior year, and one of them I even

841
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: gave the exact date. UM, so I was very clear

842
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: about that. Stay with us for more of my conversation

843
00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: with Mackenzie Fierston. Right after this, when the article came

844
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: out in the Philadelphia Inquirer saying you grew up poor,

845
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: the reporter got an anonymous email questioning that. But then

846
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: the floodgates opened and many people were accusing you of

847
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: lying about your situation and trying to gain the system. Essentially,

848
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: what was that like for you to watch all these

849
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: people or to hear or see them questioning your credibility

850
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: and your life experience? So it was interesting because initially

851
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: it was one anonymous email, and then I later found

852
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: out about two, and so I I really didn't feel

853
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 1: discredited or disbelieved on a wide scale. UM. And when

854
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: I eventually saw the emails, it felt pretty clear to

855
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: me that they were from my bio family. UM, but

856
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 1: it was really you know. A week later, after the

857
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: article came out and after I was named a Rhodes Scholar,

858
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 1: I got an email from the director of the called

859
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: CURF but it's the Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships,

860
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: saying that she and the deputy provost now interim Provost,

861
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 1: Beth Winkelstein, wanted to meet with me via zoom And

862
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 1: I said, you know, what is this about? UM? They

863
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: just said it doesn't matter, we need to meet with you.

864
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: And I said again, like, is this about the anonymous emails?

865
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: I'm already aware I've worked with Penn Police and the

866
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: Women's Center, Civic House, like all these different communities who

867
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: were very aware of the situation and they are happy

868
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: to fill you in on it. And they said, no,

869
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: we need to talk to you, and I said, okay,

870
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: but I'm bringing someone with me who was at the

871
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 1: time the senior associate director of Civic House, because I

872
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 1: just felt a little bit on edge about what this

873
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: was going to be. Uh So I showed up to this.

874
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: It was a zoom call, and it just felt like

875
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: an immediate interrogation. UM. It started off with Beth Wingelstein

876
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: saying to the support person that I brought, I know

877
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: you're here to support Mackenzie, but you cannot speak. If

878
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: you speak, I'll disconnect you from the zoom call. Mackenzie,

879
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: you're the only one who has loved to answer. You

880
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 1: need to answer my questions exactly, and if you don't, like,

881
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to cut you off and go back to

882
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 1: the question. And so it just immediately I was like

883
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: having flashbacks to deposition depositions UM and like cross examinations

884
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: I was having. And she started asking me questions about

885
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 1: my application, some of the same things that we just

886
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: talked about. And then pretty abruptly switched to questions about

887
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: my abuse, and they were very specific, so it became

888
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: pretty clear to me that they had either reviewed medical

889
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: records or spoken to my bio mom, which I later

890
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: have found out that is what happened. Um. And so

891
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: it's just kind of this like drill of questions. What

892
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 1: happened that you went to foster care, and what were injuries?

893
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: Why were you in the hospital that long? How long

894
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: was the abuse going on? Was their abuse with your

895
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: mom's partner? Like, it was just this rapid fire of

896
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 1: questions and by the end, I'm like hyperventilating and crying,

897
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 1: maybe harder than I've ever cried in my life, and

898
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: like literally couldn't speak at the end. And then she

899
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, great, We're done, and that that was it. Um.

900
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: She did at the very end offered to connect me

901
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: to support UM and I was like, I think, I'm okay,

902
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to schedule next to therapy session. Thank you

903
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: though for giving me content for that session. UM. So

904
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: that was the first I guess, um downwards turn of

905
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: events after you were questioned by the Deputy provost and

906
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: the very emotional experience you have the school ultimately sent

907
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: a letter to the Roads Trust stating that you failed

908
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 1: to quote acknowledge your upper middle class upbringing, and that

909
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: you provided this description of a life of abuse that

910
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 1: the judicial process concluded could not be substantiated. The Roads

911
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: Trust launched its own investigation, and you eventually withdrew from

912
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: the program. Why do you think this letter said a

913
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: description of a life of abuse could not be substantiated.

914
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 1: There's a few reasons I think that was the case.

915
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: One of them is because unfortunately, that's what a lot

916
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: of people rely on, is this could only happen if

917
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: there was a conviction, when we know in reality, I

918
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: can't remember the exact numbers, but I think it's about

919
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: like percent of people report one percent go to trial,

920
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 1: and like point one percent um get convictions. So it's

921
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 1: extremely hard in cases of abuse and assault for their

922
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: effort to be conviction, let alone when it's a white

923
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 1: like a pretty white woman who's a doctor. It was

924
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 1: I mean, looking back, it has felt like David and Goliath,

925
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: um and so. But it was at the same time

926
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 1: still pretty shocking to me to read that they had

927
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: put that in print. And then I came to learn

928
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 1: that the general counsel Wendy White had been in consistent

929
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: contact with my bio family. Um. They had. She invited

930
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 1: them to write multiple emails to her to help write

931
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 1: that letter. Also spoken to my bio mom's defense attorney,

932
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 1: which wasn't surprising because a lot of the questions that

933
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: I was asked in this interrogation were almost exactly what

934
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: I was asked in the cross examination of a trial

935
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: that happened in March of nineteen. So I think both

936
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 1: of those things probably influenced them. You know, they started

937
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: immediately not with asking me, but literally within forty eight

938
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: hours of this anonymous email, Wendy White was on the

939
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 1: phone with with Carrie, which still shocks me. Um And

940
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 1: I didn't learn about that until a couple of months ago.

941
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: But if you start not with asking like a survivor

942
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: what their experience wise, and you just immediately go to

943
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: the abuser and say like, oh, did you abuse that person,

944
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 1: they're probably going to say now. Um And So I

945
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 1: think they went into writing that letter with a lot

946
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: of disbelief and the same accusations that were thrown out

947
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:56,439
Speaker 1: by my bio family. How do you think your mom

948
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: characterized you, McKenzie? I mean did she say you were

949
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 1: a difficult girl, that you were troubled? How did she

950
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 1: turned the tables and place the blame on you to

951
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: the point that pen would write a letter like that.

952
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 1: My understanding is she repeated the narrative she said when

953
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 1: I went into foster care, which is that I was

954
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: a troubled kid. I was severely mentally ill. I made

955
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: everything up. I hadn't heard this one, but there was

956
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 1: an uh. One of my bio ants wrote in this

957
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 1: email to Wendy White that I had planted my own

958
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 1: blood and used the movie Gone Girl to stage this

959
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: mass abuse, which I don't know if I've ever seen,

960
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: and I googled it and the movie came out after

961
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: I went into foster care. Um, so there was a

962
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 1: lot of the same kind of gaslighting behavior and accusation.

963
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: And when I went into foster care that we're repeated.

964
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: I was wondering, if you felt you were seeing these

965
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: biases play out over and over again, that you're accomplished,

966
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: pretty successful. Dr Mom could not have in a million

967
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 1: years been capable of hurting her only child. Yes, absolutely,

968
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 1: And that's really the reason I want to tell my

969
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: story is because I do think it's emblematic of these

970
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 1: societal notions of who can be abusive and who can

971
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 1: cause harm. And we know, at least cognitively as a

972
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 1: culture that that isn't true again because we've had me too.

973
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: We've had all of these moments of like reckoning with

974
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:55,919
Speaker 1: oh my god, white successful, like academically educated people can

975
01:06:56,120 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: also cause harm, like mind blowing, and we've had to

976
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 1: reckon with this. And still there are people and unfortunately

977
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people who don't see that, and especially

978
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 1: almost everyone who's been involved with this have also been white,

979
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: highly educated professionals um and I don't think that's a

980
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: coincidence that these people are the ones who are having

981
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 1: a hard time believing that this can happen by someone

982
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: who looks like them. By the way, I want to

983
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 1: read something that one of your peers, Anamore, who helped

984
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: found pen First, which was an organization supporting low income

985
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: first generation PEN students. She wrote on on Your Behalf

986
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: to the Roads Trust and I wanted to read this

987
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 1: because I think it will help listeners understand some of

988
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: the forces that have been at work in your whole story.

989
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 1: She wrote, when I founded pen First, it was for

990
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: students just like McKenzie and her membership and leadership at

991
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: the club was welcomed with open arms. Bagily kids can

992
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: go to private school and or college preparatory school, just

993
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 1: as mackenzie did. We are not all inner city children

994
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 1: who live in filthy ghettos and attend crumbling, rat infested

995
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 1: public schools as the wider media made portray us to be.

996
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 1: What did you think of that letter? And Nia is

997
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 1: one of the most brilliant people that I know, and

998
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: obviously so eloquent and powerful in everything she says, uh,

999
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 1: And I thought she did an incredible job of capturing

1000
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 1: again the connection between my personal story and why I'm

1001
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 1: sharing it. And that's because like these systems and institutions

1002
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: uphold these beliefs of who can cause harm and who

1003
01:08:55,200 --> 01:09:00,599
Speaker 1: can do bad things, and that's why we are where

1004
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 1: we are, you know, with still fighting tooth and nail

1005
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 1: to be believed. Um. And the level of silencing that

1006
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 1: survivors like face uh, and the reasons that some people

1007
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 1: face that more than others. I think she captured that beautifully, UM,

1008
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 1: with that sentiment and the assumptions people make about others,

1009
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,640
Speaker 1: and there are experiences, absolutely, and I think that's so

1010
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: much of what the hallwork of the story is like,

1011
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 1: it is the assumption people make is even though the

1012
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 1: average time in foster cares about eleven months, people make

1013
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: the assumption that, just like Annia said that foster kids

1014
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:50,719
Speaker 1: are from quote inner city, rat infested public schools, who

1015
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: have been in foster care their whole life and their

1016
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 1: parents were addicts. You know, they make all these assumptions.

1017
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm certainly not under any illusion that

1018
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 1: I am like the average foster kid. Like obviously that's

1019
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 1: not true, but it's also not what people associate as

1020
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 1: Like the typical foster kid doesn't exist either, because those

1021
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 1: are rooted in biases and racism and classism, um. And

1022
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:16,640
Speaker 1: I think that's hard for people to unpack because we

1023
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:20,280
Speaker 1: have to acknowledge that exists within all of us, myself included.

1024
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: We all have biases, we all exist in the world

1025
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:28,200
Speaker 1: um that enforces those biases. But I think it's really

1026
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 1: hard for people to sit with that and understand our

1027
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 1: partner it and also understand that we have to do

1028
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:38,600
Speaker 1: something every day to dismantle it, and that silence just

1029
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:43,680
Speaker 1: upholds the status quo. You withdrew from the Rhodes Scholarship

1030
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 1: program that I'm wondering, do you think you could have

1031
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:50,759
Speaker 1: made your case and as a result, educated more people

1032
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: if you had stayed and thought a system that you

1033
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:04,679
Speaker 1: believe mischaracterized your situation and mistreated you. So I guess

1034
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: a couple of things come to mind. UM. One, I

1035
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:11,519
Speaker 1: did initially fight. You know, PEN tried very hard to

1036
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 1: get me to not fight. UM. They threatened both of

1037
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:19,759
Speaker 1: my degrees. They tried to throw an n DA at me, um,

1038
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: if you know, saying that if I didn't sign it

1039
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 1: and withdraw from the Roads scholarship, then they would make

1040
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:28,719
Speaker 1: sure my undergrad degree was revoked. UM. Or at least

1041
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,759
Speaker 1: that was my understanding. All this happened over the phone,

1042
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 1: So there's different perspectives on what it said, UM, But

1043
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,639
Speaker 1: there was a lot. There was a great effort, and

1044
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:42,599
Speaker 1: this was by PEN at the time not the Road

1045
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 1: stressed to not have me submit my initial defense. UM.

1046
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 1: And then I did, Like you said, I submitted tens

1047
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:55,639
Speaker 1: over a hundred pages of medical documents, police records, letters,

1048
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 1: like you said, about thirty of them from detectives and

1049
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: states attorneys and elementary, middle and high school teachers and friends,

1050
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 1: all corroborating my abuse and um my figly status. And

1051
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:12,680
Speaker 1: then they came back with their initial report UM, and

1052
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 1: they recommended that it be rescinded. So then I had

1053
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 1: another chance to kind of rebut some of what they

1054
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 1: had found, and I wanted to do that because there

1055
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 1: were one just some pretty basic errors like my name, UM,

1056
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,759
Speaker 1: and like my place of birth and that I didn't

1057
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 1: have a sibling, and just like pretty easily refutable UM

1058
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: claims that they made. And that was when counts the

1059
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 1: General Counsel came back UM and again kind of made

1060
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: these threats and intimidation of she needs to withdraw and

1061
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,519
Speaker 1: sign an agreement with us and signed a claims agreement

1062
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 1: that she's not going to sue us or we're gonna

1063
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 1: never give her her MSW. We're going to start proceedings

1064
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 1: to revoke her undergrad degree UM because like you said,

1065
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,479
Speaker 1: I wrote about the instance of abuse, which they think

1066
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 1: qualifies as like false information on my application since it

1067
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 1: wasn't upheld um in the court of law. And this

1068
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 1: time there was the added threat of they would report

1069
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: me to the federal government for wire fraud if again

1070
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 1: I didn't withdraw from the roads and sign this NBA

1071
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,800
Speaker 1: with them. Uh So federal prison is no jokes. I

1072
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 1: was a little scared um by that, even though I

1073
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 1: later came to find out that was a tool for

1074
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,599
Speaker 1: intimidation and there was absolutely no case um for that.

1075
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 1: But I ended up with drawing and but still fighting Penn,

1076
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 1: and obviously to this day, I'm still fighting pen Um.

1077
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,679
Speaker 1: You know, I filed a lawsuit against them. They also

1078
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: are trying to make me write a letter of apology um,

1079
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 1: which I will not be doing obviously, because the only

1080
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 1: people who deserve an apology are me and all survivors.

1081
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: And I feel like that is a pathway I'm using

1082
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:14,719
Speaker 1: to try to fight for, you know, accountability and change,

1083
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:19,120
Speaker 1: and also telling my entire story to the internet for

1084
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,799
Speaker 1: the rest of my life feels like a pretty radical

1085
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:26,759
Speaker 1: way to share my story. And I guess the other reason,

1086
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 1: and I think this is really important that I now

1087
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 1: am not wondering if it would have been any different

1088
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 1: if I use that last level of the appeal is

1089
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,519
Speaker 1: because I learned that I'm the third rhodeswoman who this

1090
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: has happened to, who has lost their scholarship because of

1091
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,840
Speaker 1: anonymous letters, and at least one of them is a survivor,

1092
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:51,600
Speaker 1: and it seems to me that there's a pretty sexist

1093
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:58,519
Speaker 1: trend among the roads trust of making people or making

1094
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 1: certain decisions to view certain women's applications based on anonymous claims.

1095
01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:10,480
Speaker 1: And I actually did recently retain a British law firm

1096
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 1: to investigate potential options because I do think that's another

1097
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 1: opportunity to you know, fight and look for accountability and

1098
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 1: change change the system that you feel abuse to really

1099
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 1: all over again. Yeah, because this is what it looks like,

1100
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:32,599
Speaker 1: in my opinion, when people with power abuse and shame

1101
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:36,880
Speaker 1: and belittle and disbelieve survivors. And this is what it

1102
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 1: looks like when abusers power and privilege in bolden disbelief

1103
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:47,759
Speaker 1: and perpetuate the you know, systemic abuse again that's rooted

1104
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 1: within our society, um. And it's really important that we

1105
01:15:52,479 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 1: at least in my opinion, that we expand the conversation

1106
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: around me too to not just you know, the sharing

1107
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 1: of story, which is so important. And I really do

1108
01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 1: believe that when we share, we heal, and that every

1109
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 1: survivor who wants to have their story told should be

1110
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 1: heard and healed. And we also need to think about

1111
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 1: why do so many of us have these stories like

1112
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:18,519
Speaker 1: It's not just coincidence. It's because there are systems and

1113
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 1: institutions which keep us quiet and allow the violence to

1114
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:28,360
Speaker 1: keep happening. When we come back the next chapter in

1115
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:39,599
Speaker 1: mackenzie story, what's ahead for you? You changed your name

1116
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 1: from Fierston. I did, yes, that was actually before all

1117
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: of this, um So I changed it in December of

1118
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:55,559
Speaker 1: nineteen UM and that is also representative. I think of

1119
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 1: a lot of the core of the story of wanting

1120
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:03,519
Speaker 1: to separate myself from my family of origin and embrace

1121
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 1: sort of my own identity as the person I want

1122
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:14,040
Speaker 1: to be and feel like I've fought to find and heal,

1123
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:18,639
Speaker 1: which I guess is um this is not exactly your question,

1124
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:22,839
Speaker 1: but I feel like I've kind of learned that healing

1125
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: is an act of reaching inwards, and for me that

1126
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 1: was like finding the person that was always there and

1127
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,880
Speaker 1: realizing it wasn't me who was broken, or it wasn't

1128
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,640
Speaker 1: that I didn't know who I was. It was feeling

1129
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 1: like I needed to bring back or find like more

1130
01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:46,840
Speaker 1: of who I was and like the actual Mackenzie that

1131
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:51,120
Speaker 1: had been erased over years of abuse. And that was

1132
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:54,720
Speaker 1: part of what changing my name to something that I

1133
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:58,200
Speaker 1: felt like represented that finding of myself and like really

1134
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:03,160
Speaker 1: embracing that meant to me. While you withdrew from being

1135
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 1: a Rhodes scholar, you were still able to enroll in

1136
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:12,880
Speaker 1: the sociology PhD program. And so tell me where you

1137
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:20,639
Speaker 1: are in terms of your educational and personal journey now. Yeah, So, I,

1138
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 1: like you said, I'm in my first year of my

1139
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 1: PhD at Oxford. I'm going into my third trimester. Uh,

1140
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 1: and it's been great. I mean, I've this is what

1141
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 1: I set out to do, to study the relationship between

1142
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: incarceration and foster care. So I've been developing my proposal

1143
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:44,200
Speaker 1: and I'm getting ready to defend it um in our

1144
01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:47,639
Speaker 1: oral exam coming up and then hopefully start my field

1145
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:53,520
Speaker 1: work fingers crossed um once again ethics approval. And personally,

1146
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:59,479
Speaker 1: it's so complicated because I have felt tremendous liberation and

1147
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:02,880
Speaker 1: power in the story being released, which I didn't know

1148
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:06,799
Speaker 1: if I would feel. But there is so much shame

1149
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 1: in the silence, and I feel like silence just breathes shame,

1150
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:14,679
Speaker 1: and so I feel like deciding to tell the story

1151
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 1: was and still is extremely healing, even though it's opening

1152
01:19:19,479 --> 01:19:23,719
Speaker 1: me up to more disbelief and shaming. It also feels

1153
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:27,120
Speaker 1: like but it's out there, like it's not a secret anymore.

1154
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:31,760
Speaker 1: And that has been so powerful for me. And you know,

1155
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:35,240
Speaker 1: life is going to keep going. I'm still fighting with

1156
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:39,599
Speaker 1: pen UM. I'm still fighting fighting to make change within

1157
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:43,120
Speaker 1: pen and more broadly and within the Roads trust. And

1158
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:45,599
Speaker 1: that's going to be hard, and they're gonna be days

1159
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 1: where I feel the shame and I feel tired and

1160
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 1: exhausted and think to myself like, oh my God, did

1161
01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:57,559
Speaker 1: I make you know? Should I keep going with all

1162
01:19:57,600 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 1: of this? And I feel like it's importan and to

1163
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 1: acknowledge that because I feel like sometimes people get a

1164
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 1: chance to share their voice and they're like, everything is

1165
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 1: great now, you know, I had a happy ending, And

1166
01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: I feel like it's important to relay and realistic expectation

1167
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 1: of like what it means to come forward with your

1168
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:22,720
Speaker 1: story and what the healing process looks like. Um, it

1169
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:25,679
Speaker 1: is hard, and so they're good days and bad days,

1170
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 1: and I hope they will keep being more good ones

1171
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 1: and that we will find justice. What would you say,

1172
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:39,880
Speaker 1: Mackenzie to the people at PEN and to the administration

1173
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:48,200
Speaker 1: at large about their handling up this situation so much?

1174
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:52,400
Speaker 1: I want to say, uh, and this goes really not

1175
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:55,759
Speaker 1: just to pen but to all institutions. And that's something

1176
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:58,719
Speaker 1: I also want to emphasize and not to be lost

1177
01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:01,679
Speaker 1: is it's not as if this is just like one

1178
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:06,680
Speaker 1: bad university or one bad sad story. It's it happens everywhere.

1179
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:09,880
Speaker 1: And I hope that it doesn't get you know, exceptionalized,

1180
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:12,639
Speaker 1: because it's not an exception, it's the rule, like this

1181
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 1: is what happens, um And I feel like what I

1182
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:22,320
Speaker 1: want to say is that survivors deserve to be heard

1183
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 1: and believed and seen and to be treated with respect

1184
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 1: and compassion and not shamed. And at the least maybe

1185
01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 1: abusers shouldn't be the first point of contact, and legal

1186
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 1: precedent shouldn't be the only precedent for truth. And most

1187
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:44,519
Speaker 1: importantly to me, the truth really is something that cannot

1188
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:48,160
Speaker 1: be changed, and I'm not going to let anyone tell

1189
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:52,879
Speaker 1: me that it's different or try to manipulate it anymore.

1190
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 1: Hopefully people will really understand all of these kind of

1191
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:03,519
Speaker 1: twists and weren't in your story, Mackenzie. But what would

1192
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:08,439
Speaker 1: you say to people who hear this story and somehow

1193
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 1: still cling to the notion that you manipulated the truth

1194
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:19,400
Speaker 1: or took advantage of a loophole or quote unquote gain

1195
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 1: the system. Honestly, I don't really have anything to say

1196
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:27,640
Speaker 1: to them, and I don't even want to give them

1197
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 1: any power because at this point there's not much I

1198
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:37,240
Speaker 1: can do to convince them otherwise. And more honestly, what

1199
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 1: comes to mind, which this isn't exactly related, but it's

1200
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 1: something I would want to tell my younger self because this,

1201
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 1: this disbelief and like people who are set on disbelieving me,

1202
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:53,120
Speaker 1: has occurred since day one. I'm sure if you read

1203
01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:55,679
Speaker 1: the New York article, you saw, like the initial article

1204
01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 1: that came out saying that Carrie had been arrested, had

1205
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:03,320
Speaker 1: just it was almost unanimous comments that I was spoiled, brat,

1206
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:07,480
Speaker 1: that I needed all up um, among many worst sentiments.

1207
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:10,280
Speaker 1: And I wish I could go back and tell my

1208
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:14,479
Speaker 1: younger self not to listen to those voices, and that

1209
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:17,400
Speaker 1: it's it's worth it to keep fighting for the truth

1210
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 1: because it doesn't change. And even though there's times when

1211
01:23:20,360 --> 01:23:23,599
Speaker 1: you're gonna feel crazy, and there's times when those people

1212
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:26,400
Speaker 1: make you feel like you're crazy or you're wrong or

1213
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:32,559
Speaker 1: something you know happened for fact didn't happen. You have

1214
01:23:32,680 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 1: to ground yourself and the truth um and find and

1215
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:40,760
Speaker 1: surround yourself with people who are going to help you

1216
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:45,640
Speaker 1: do that. So I read Yes Janelle Miller's book No

1217
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:49,600
Speaker 1: My Name, and she had this sentiment that it was

1218
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 1: something along the lines of know your truth, hold on

1219
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:55,800
Speaker 1: to your truth, it will carry you where you need

1220
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:58,840
Speaker 1: to go. And I wish I had read that seven

1221
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:02,719
Speaker 1: years ago when I was a teenager in this all began,

1222
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:06,200
Speaker 1: because I feel like it is exactly what I needed

1223
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 1: to hear. Thank you so much again to Mackenzie Feerston

1224
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:17,760
Speaker 1: for sharing her story with me. We also reached out

1225
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:22,040
Speaker 1: to the University of Pennsylvania for a statement. Here is

1226
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:26,679
Speaker 1: that response. The New Yorker article did not accurately reflect

1227
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 1: the university's thorough, careful and sensitive investigation into the very

1228
01:24:31,320 --> 01:24:35,519
Speaker 1: serious questions which were raised by prior judicial rulings and

1229
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 1: the findings of the Roads Trust, another reputable institution that

1230
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:43,519
Speaker 1: conducted its own extensive review of the facts. It is

1231
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:46,680
Speaker 1: our mission to do everything possible to support all our

1232
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 1: students and to ensure that under resource students have access

1233
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 1: to Penn's world class educational opportunities. We have always recognized

1234
01:24:57,080 --> 01:25:01,840
Speaker 1: that this particular situation involves a painful family experience, and

1235
01:25:01,920 --> 01:25:05,759
Speaker 1: we have consistently approached it with empathy and a thoughtful

1236
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:09,479
Speaker 1: consideration of all of the facts available to us. As

1237
01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 1: an institution, we cannot overlook the importance of integrity in

1238
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 1: our university community or ignore clear violations of our principles

1239
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:22,080
Speaker 1: and ethical code, because we have a responsibility to ensure

1240
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:26,320
Speaker 1: that all members of our community, most especially other young people,

1241
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:32,400
Speaker 1: have fair and honest access to opportunities. That, again, is

1242
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:43,200
Speaker 1: the response from the University of Pennsylvania. Next Question with

1243
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:46,880
Speaker 1: Katie Kurik is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.

1244
01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 1: The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. The

1245
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 1: supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and

1246
01:25:56,479 --> 01:26:01,160
Speaker 1: Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrek Clements.

1247
01:26:01,160 --> 01:26:04,120
Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up

1248
01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:06,880
Speaker 1: for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie

1249
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:09,559
Speaker 1: Correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie

1250
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:13,240
Speaker 1: Correct on Instagram and all my social media channels. For

1251
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:16,519
Speaker 1: more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart

1252
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:20,120
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

1253
01:26:20,160 --> 01:26:20,920
Speaker 1: favorite shows.