1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, this is John O'Brien, entrepreneur and a fellow 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: builder just like you. Thanks for the help of I 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Prudential Financial. I'd like to present to 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,239 Speaker 1: you my brand new podcast. It's called Building the Good 5 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: where each week a special friend and I will unpack 6 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: and talk in detail about financial literals, building generational well 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: building that community, building the best version of you. Make 8 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: sure to listen to Building a Good Life on the 9 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, app, Apple podcast or wherever you get 10 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: your podcast. Give us ever attention. We need everything you 11 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: got fast. Waiting on Reparations would beat the Illes podcast two. 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: It in every Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for 13 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: the people because they got us in the worst way, 14 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: from the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay to Kant, from 15 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: the left enclave to what the neo Kanz say every 16 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: conversation and to break us off with some break because 17 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: we're waiting. Listen to Waiting on Reparations and I Heard 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: From Cavalry Audio comes the new true crime podcast, The 20 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: Shadow Girls. I grew up near the banks of the 21 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: Green River and in the shadow of the killer that 22 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: bears its name. Prosecutors described him as a serial killer 23 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: surve But this podcast isn't only about tracking down the killer. 24 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: It's about the victims. We stayed in the woods. He 25 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: always liked to go into words. Listen to the Shadow 26 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: Girls on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple Podcasts, 27 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Just off Madison Avenue 28 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: on East seventy third Street for lunchtime. Crowded via quadron 29 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: O fills every sidewalk table as well as the seats 30 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: in its pandemic inspired shed. It's a cheerful neighborhood joint, 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: catering to a young crowd with great coffee, sandwiches and pasta. 32 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: A sense of triumph pervades the place. Among all the 33 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: restaurants closed by COVID nineteen, Via Quadrono is more popular 34 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: than ever. Often from a townhouse next door, a stooped 35 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: figure emerges from an upper floor and makes her way 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: down the stately front steps past the millennials. She looks 37 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: smaller than she once did, as if scrunched by the 38 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: circumstances that led her here, though she still has the 39 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: white corkscrew curls that made her stand out in any 40 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: art fair or gallery. Opening and the stern, almost imperious 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: mien for which she was known. A little over a 42 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: decade ago, Ann Friedman was among the most powerful art 43 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: dealers in New York. Her fiefdom was the Knoedler Gallery, 44 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: from which she sold works by many of the best 45 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: known artists of the mid twentieth century, Mark Rothko, William Dacooning, 46 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: Barnett Newman, Clifford Still, and Jackson Pollock. Today, the Knodler 47 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: is gone. Just three blocks down Madison on the north 48 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: Side street stand the ghosts of the now infamous gallery. 49 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: Two adjoining limestone mansions in the Italian Renaissance style with 50 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: ornate stone arches topped by decorative balconies. In the galleries 51 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: own Renaissance, a royal blue Awning announced the Ndler's two 52 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: buildings in capital letters. In this season of Art Fraud, 53 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: we're examining the rise and fall of the Knodler Gallery. 54 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: It's a story about one of New York City's oldest 55 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: and most celebrated galleries dealing in world class art, and 56 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: how its doors would close forever in the face of 57 00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: insurmountable pressure, ultimately in the form of looming prison to time. 58 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: We're talking of course about paintings, fake paintings, or more plainly, forgeries. 59 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You 60 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: know they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes. 61 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: Of course, art forgeries only happen because there's money to 62 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: be made, a lot of money. Tens of millions of 63 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: dollars would change hands between a cast of characters before 64 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: it was all over. A few profited, some were cheated, 65 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: and at least one person would find themselves behind bars. 66 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: With me today is Michael Schneerson, a long time contributing 67 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 1: editor for Vanity Fair, whose feature story on the Knoedler 68 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: Gallery appeared in the magazine shortly after the scandal broke 69 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: in the spring of two thousand twelve. Michael is also 70 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: the author of Boom Mad Money. Mega Dealers and the 71 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: Rise of Contemporary Art are compelling and entertaining over view 72 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: of the dealers who helped make the contemporary art market 73 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: what it is today. The honest dealers, I hasten to add, 74 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: because generally these dealers were and are honest, driven by 75 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: a passion for their artists far more than profit. Here's 76 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: Michael Schneerson. I've written a lot of articles for Vanity Fair, 77 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: but the Notlar case sticks in my mind because at 78 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: the heart of it lies an unresolved mystery. The story, 79 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: of course, has taken some turns that even Anne Friedman 80 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: could not have predicted. You could say that about the 81 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: whole contemporary art market. I suppose who would have imagined 82 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: at the start of the century that an artist named 83 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: Jeff Coon's would make a supersized stainless steel rabbit that's 84 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: sold at auction in May two th nineteen for million dollars, 85 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: the highest price ever paid for a living artist's work. 86 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: Who could have predicted that a young Brooklyn artist named 87 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: Jean Michel Baskuillade would make his oddly haunting abstract portraits 88 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: of tribal figures and totems in a basement for drug money, 89 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: only to have them sell after his premature death for 90 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: as much as a hundred and ten million dollars. Record 91 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: Breaking sales like that have done more than juice the 92 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: art market. They've led to a gray market of private 93 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: dealings that thrive in a hot climate. It's important to 94 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: note that the art market is still the world's largest 95 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: unregulated business. Legal business anyway, you have to do what 96 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: you say you'll do when striking a deal. You have 97 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: to pay your taxes, and that's about it. I remember 98 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: going to a mega dealer's home in East Hampton one 99 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: night and commenting that the art market was the last 100 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: unregulated multibillion dollar equity market in the world. Our host said, 101 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: and let's try to keep it that way, as his 102 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:51,119 Speaker 1: guests raised their glasses and toasted. When a dealer goes 103 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: further trafficking and paintings that turn out to be fakes, 104 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: is there any pattern to explain why that happens. Usually 105 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: it starts with someone down on their luck, a dealer 106 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: or perhaps an unsuccessful artist. The fraudster may have no 107 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: intention of doing more than tweaking a painting to make 108 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: it more saleable, or fabricating just one work to pay 109 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: the bills. But what if he or she turns out 110 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: to be awfully good at it and the dealer, in 111 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: desperate straits buys it. What if the dealer then sells 112 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: it for a profit to someone unaware of the fraud, 113 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: And so a fascinating dance begins to dance about the 114 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: art that's changing hands, but even more so, a dance 115 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: about the story behind the art. At first, the froster 116 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: tells a bit of the story, just one or two 117 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: tantalizing and fabricated bits to explain how and when the 118 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: painting was done. And then as the dance goes on, 119 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: the victim let's call him the Mark, grows ever more 120 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: eager to hear more. After all, the more he hears, 121 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: the more the expanding story seems to authenticate the art 122 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: he's bought and the money he'll lose if it turns 123 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: out the story was a scam. Until the fraudster and 124 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: the mark are intertwined, each so eager to believe the 125 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: story that for both it sort of comes true. So 126 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: it would become for Ann Friedman, the noted galleryes director, 127 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: and a mysterious woman named La Rosalez, who, on her 128 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: visits to the Nodler starting in always seemed to have 129 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: another mid century masterpiece under her arm. As we embark 130 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: on this exploration, it's my opinion that Anne sold those 131 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: paintings convinced they were real, until the day Glafira brought 132 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: the whole story crashing down. I don't believe Anne knew 133 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: they were fakes and sold them as fakes. I have 134 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: to be honest with you, Alec. I disagree. I think 135 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: you couldn't be a well known, long time dealer in 136 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: top tier art and sell paintings one after another with 137 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: no clear trail of ownership unless you were acting with 138 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: criminal intent. I think and knew exactly what she was doing, 139 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: if not from the beginning, then soon enough, and that 140 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: she hoped she could fool the art world over and 141 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: over again, as indeed she did for some fourteen years. 142 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: So the first question is whether Ann Friedman knew what 143 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: she was buying when she bought these works for whopping 144 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: discounts from Gafa Rosalie and her confederates. And the next 145 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: question is should Anne's own customers to whom she retailed 146 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: these paintings, should they have been more aware of what 147 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: they were doing. There's an argument in the art world 148 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: that when you purchase an expensive work of art, it's 149 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: your obligation, as a sophisticated buyer, to do your research, 150 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: talk to experts, and so forth. Robert Store, former director 151 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: of the Yale School of Art and one of the 152 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: country's most important art critics, said at a conference not 153 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: long ago, the collectors are quote unquote stupid to spend 154 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: millions of dollars on a work of art without personally 155 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: investigating its authenticity. And I think he has a point. 156 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: That's an interesting idea. So what's your responsibility, if you're 157 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: the buyer, to figure out if my artist fake. I've 158 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: got a gallery full of art in the Upper East Side. 159 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: Some of it is real, some of it is not. 160 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: You decide, Well, that's a fair point. I guess my 161 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: reluctance to think the worst event has as much to 162 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: do with how I felt about the gallery as what 163 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: I felt about her. I'm not a serious collector of 164 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: contemporary art, far from it, but I like looking at art, 165 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: and on occasion I bought a painting not for seven 166 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: or eight figures, but maybe six. In fact, I've been 167 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: the victim of an art forgery myself, but we'll get 168 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: to that later. The Noodler felt different from almost every 169 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,959 Speaker 1: other gallery in New York. There was a stateliness about 170 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: the place, a touch of class, old world manners. The 171 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: Nole didn't just sell contemporary art. It's old modern art, too, 172 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: which is to say art by artists who started before 173 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: World War Two, anyone from Brock and Picasso to Francis Bacon. 174 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: A sweeping stairway led from the showrooms to the office above, 175 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: where Anne Friedman presided. The true marvel of Knoedler was 176 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: its legacy. It was the oldest gallery in New York, 177 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: opened in eight through those one it five years, and 178 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: it never closed, not in the Civil War, not in 179 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: World War Two, through every calamity in American history since 180 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: the Antebellum era, the k Nodler had survived. But who 181 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: was Knodler and how did the venerable gallery get its 182 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: start in New York? That's after the break. Give us 183 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: the over attention. We need everything you've got fast Waiting 184 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: on Reparations. We beat the podcast in every Thursday politics 185 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: in wordplay. We fight for the people because they got 186 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: us in the worst way, from the Hill Cooper, the 187 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: Bombay to Kanye, from the left enclave to what the 188 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: neo Kanza, every conversation to break us off with some 189 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: break because we wait in the reparations. Listen to Waiting 190 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: on Reparations on I Heart Radio, app Apple Podcasts, or 191 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast us. If I could be 192 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: you and you could be me for just one hour, 193 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: if you could find a way to get inside each 194 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: other's mind, walk a mile in my shoes wacome mile 195 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: in my shoes shoes. We've all felt left out, and 196 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: for some that feeling lasts more than a moment. We 197 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us 198 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: dot org, brought to you by the AD Council. Welcome 199 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: out and my shoes. What's up, guys. I'm a Shot 200 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: Blau and I am Troy Millions and we are the 201 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: host of the Earnier Leisure podcast where we break down 202 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: business models and examine the latest trans and finance. We 203 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of the 204 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: biggest names of business, sport, and entertainment, from DJ Khaled 205 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquill O'Neil. I mean 206 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: our alumni list is expansive listening as our guests reveal 207 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: their business models, hardships and triumphs and their respective fields. 208 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: The knowledge is in death and the questions are always 209 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: delivered from your standpoint. We want to know what you 210 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: want to know. We talked to the legends of business, 211 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: sports and entertainment about how they got their start and 212 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: most importantly, how they make their money. Earnia Leisia is 213 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: a college business class mixed with pop culture. I want 214 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: to learn about the real estate game. Unclear is how 215 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: the stock market works. We got you interested in starting 216 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: the truck and company or vendor machine business. Not really 217 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: sure about how taxes or credit work. We got it 218 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: all covered. The Earnie Leisure podcast is available now. Listen 219 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: to Ernie Leisure on the Black Effect Podcast Network, I 220 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. 221 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: It was an eighteen fifty two that a young and 222 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: ambitious gallery assistant named Michael Noldler disembarked from a Transatlantic 223 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: ship in New York, scanning the busy waterfront for the 224 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: face he hoped to find. Soon enough, he spotted his man, 225 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: William Shaus Shows had come from Paris four years earlier 226 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: to start a New York branch of a company called 227 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: good Peel V. Bail a see soon to be known 228 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: as Ndler. Michael K. Nodler was a Goopeel employee in Paris. 229 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: That's Dick McIntosh. For years, Dick worked at the Noodler 230 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: Gallery as its historian. He was on the verge of 231 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: publishing the definitive history of the gallery when its gates 232 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: came crashing down. Out of Goopeel met Michael K. Nodler 233 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: in Stuttgart in the course of business and brought him 234 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: to go Peel and Company in Paris, and Michael Noodler 235 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: trained in Paris for a good ten or twelve years. 236 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: He was totally a vassal of out of Coupel. William 237 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: Schaus was the first person sent here to open the gallery, 238 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: who arrived in eighteen forty seven to scout things out 239 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: to help us understand how the Nodler became the first 240 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: art gallery in New York and how for decades it 241 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: remained the Venerable Noteler Gallery, as if venerable was part 242 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: of its title. I've asked Noodler historian Dick McIntosh and 243 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: Francis Batty to art market experts to share some notdal 244 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: history with me at my home on the Upper East Side. 245 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: The fact that I live on East seventy third Street, 246 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: steps from Freedom and Arts is just a coincidence, though 247 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: it does mean I get more sightings of Anne than 248 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: I otherwise would, and to be candid, I've often found 249 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: myself turning a corner at almost the exact moment and 250 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: reaches the corner from the other side, or spotting that 251 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: mop of silver curls half a block away heading in 252 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: my direction. I would be less than honest if I 253 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: did admit I've taken avoidance measures darting between parked cars 254 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: or turning so abruptly that I barge into strangers. Hartley 255 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: it said, I have nothing to say to her, But 256 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: also I know that my Vanity Fair story, while it 257 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: seemed fair to me, cut her deeply. That's never my 258 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: intent with the magazine story. But sometimes the facts just 259 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: go where they will. At any there's not much to 260 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: say other than to ask questions she'd rather not answer, 261 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: and to watch her stock off and a huff dick. 262 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: I know the firm that came to be an odler 263 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: didn't start as an art gallery. What was it exactly? 264 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: When you walked into the place, what did you see? 265 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: A store? The family always called it the store, which 266 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: is an indication of its very eclectic nature. It would 267 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: be very, very pretentious to call yourself a gallery, because 268 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: it's like calling yourself a museum, and that would be, 269 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: I think at that point, very inappropriate. That's Francis Batty. 270 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: Francis has been an art dealer for nearly forty years, 271 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: first in partnership with the late legendary Richard Fagen now 272 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: with her son Alex, a tall and suave dealer in 273 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: his own right who spends every spare moment schmoozing with 274 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: tech billionaires, ready to cover their walls with art. The 275 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: point was to sell the ex has stock of the 276 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: Goo Peel Company from Paris. The technology of making reproductions 277 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: had improved to the point that many more a much 278 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: larger quantity of reproductions could be made could be manufactured. 279 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: Did reproductions usually mean engravings? Originally it meant engravings, but 280 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: by this time there were lithographs, which were the cheapest 281 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: and easiest to produce in the largest quality, and etchings 282 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: and mixed media. At the same time, though, in the 283 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: forties when the store opened, someone was painting right, even 284 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 1: in America. Thomas Cole Asher b drand the whole Hudson 285 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: River School in her school Colos let us not forget 286 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: the German American Immanuel Leitza who painted the famous Washingtons 287 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 1: crossing the Della Delaware right. In fact, Goupil made reproductions 288 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: of the painting in all sizes in Paris and sent 289 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: them to America, where they sold like hot kicks. Mark 290 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: Twain famously said that If General Washington had known the 291 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: extent of reproductions that were going to be made of 292 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: his image, he'd have thought twice about crossing the Delaware 293 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: in the first place. How did Michael Nodler get involved 294 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: when Goupil and Shows had a serious disagreement over how 295 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: profits from the New York Gallery We're going to be divided, 296 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,959 Speaker 1: Chaos quit and set up his own business, and Michael 297 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: Nodler was dispatched here to continue on in eighteen fifty two, 298 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: how would you describe the stores evolution from selling reproductions 299 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: to actual paintings for the store to become the first 300 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: real art gallery in New York gradual, and then it 301 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: kind of starts to really pick up steam in the 302 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: eight Then you have this extraordinary kind of explosion for 303 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: the next thirty years of them bringing major, major pictures, 304 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: Goya Turner, I mean, just these legendary names of incredible 305 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: quality to America. Did a few collectors become the lynchpins 306 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: of Noted success. I'm thinking Henry Clay Frick, for one, 307 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: the great steel industrialist. Frick, for many years was Noted's 308 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: biggest client. The first painting he bought was four and 309 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: immediately afterwards he began buying in real quantity, and his 310 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: close association with the noted gallery lasted for the rest 311 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: of his lifetime, in other words, until when he died. 312 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: And when he died, Charles Carstairs, the man who had 313 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: sold me on the first painting, was a pall bearer 314 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: at his funeral. Michael Nodler made the gallery grow, and 315 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: so did his sons. As it did, it began moving uptown, 316 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: up along Broadway, then over to Fifth Avenue, following the 317 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: city's own restless course. The location of the store was 318 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: important for two reasons. First, it was in Littlefarge buildings. 319 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: The choice of the location was determined by a network 320 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: of French people in New York, one of whom was 321 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: the father of Jean LeFarge, the artist, who was a 322 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,719 Speaker 1: real estate investor, a successful real estate investor in early 323 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: New York. Secondly, due to the rise of department store 324 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: in Paris in the mid nineteenth century, which is where 325 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: they really began in the form that we know them today, 326 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: it was clear to all concern that it was a 327 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: good idea to be located near a department store, because 328 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: that's where everybody went for every last little thing. As 329 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: the Ndlers migrated, they started taking on more original art, 330 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: even oil paintings. They sold to the founders of new 331 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: American fortunes. Vanderbilt's Asters and Rockefeller's all frequented Ndler. So 332 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: did Henry Flagler of Standard Oil and sugar refiner H. O. 333 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: Have Ameyer. In the course of two days, railroad magnate 334 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: Jay Gould bought twenty two pictures. All of these grandees 335 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: had more than paintings on the walls of their brand 336 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: new mansions. They had collections. Then in the early ties, 337 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: the dashing Roland Ballet, a Knodler on his mother's side, 338 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: came from Paris in his twenties to work at the 339 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: family business. The last of the Ndler family directors, Roland 340 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: had no choice, really but to join the store when 341 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: he came of age. Roland liked to recall that his 342 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: very first memory of meeting an artist came when he 343 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: was just five. His parents brought him to the Parisian 344 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: countryside of State of Giverny to have lunch with Claude Monet. 345 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: They brought a ham that got sliced at a table 346 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: in the garden. For the rest of his life, Roland 347 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: would remember the white bearded artist eating the ham and 348 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: looking at him with kindly eyes against a backdrop of 349 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: water lilies. Roland arrived in New York in Nino at 350 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: the age of twenty two, drinking most of the way 351 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: with Pierre Matisse, the artist's son who would remain a 352 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: lifelong pal. He came bearing other friendships with some of 353 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: Paris's best contemporary artists, brac Lejee and Picasso. To his chagrin, 354 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: he found his older family members in New York underwhelmed 355 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: by the paintings he brought. Put them in the basement. 356 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: They told him when he showed them the new Cubists 357 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: that Paris had embraced, the children will take them. The 358 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: Knoedler wasn't avant garde, as its family directors reminded Roland, 359 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: it solved the art of its times, or, perhaps more accurately, 360 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: it sold the art of the times its buyers embraced, 361 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: which tended to be a decade or two behind contemporary art. 362 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,959 Speaker 1: Roland had no choice but to grit his teeth and 363 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: sell his clients what they wanted. In the aftermath of 364 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: World War Two, a new school of art arose to 365 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: show its devastation. The often brutal, sweeping brushstrokes of abstract Expressionism. 366 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: Yet Noodler kept its distance as painters like Jackson Pollock 367 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 1: and William Dacooning, Clifford Still, Barnett Newman and Mark Rothko 368 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: rose with a new generation of dealers, namely Betty Parsons, 369 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: Sidney Janie and Leo Castelli. These were the groundbreaking dealers 370 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: of the nineteen fifties. Very few people were buying contemporary art. 371 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: If Pollock hadn't had Peggy Guggenheim, he would have starved. 372 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: They were all starving in the fifties. They really were 373 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: not until sort of Andy Warhol started to make money 374 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: out of art under Roland Ballet. The k Nodler was 375 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: running out of steam. Having missed the post war era, 376 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: it went on to overlook pop art too. By the 377 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: end of the sixties, it had moved to East, then 378 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: proceeded to spend so much money renovating its newly acquired 379 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: mansion that it nearly went broke. The Knodler needed an angel, 380 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: someone far more deep pocketed than Roland Ballet. In ninet 381 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: seventy one, the Knodler found that angel in armand Hammer, 382 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: the billionaire industrialist, knowing how financially imperiled Roland Ballet's Ndler 383 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: was Hammer bought the gallery for two point five million 384 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: dollars in nineteen seventy one. For that modest sum Hammer 385 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: got Knodler's business, its artists, its reputation and history. He 386 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: also got the Italian Renaissance mansion at nineteen East seventieth Street. 387 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: Not long after that deal, Hammer would buy the adjacent 388 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: mansion at one East seventieth Street. For Hammer, the deal 389 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,959 Speaker 1: was as much about real estate as art. Hammer hired 390 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: one of his two grandsons, Michael, to run the gallery 391 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: as part of a family foundation. Incidentally, Michael's son, Army Hammer, 392 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: would become a well known Hollywood actor. Still, Michael Hammer 393 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: needed top rate dealers who could finally bring contemporary artists 394 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: to musty Old Ndler. He found them in Lawrence Reuben 395 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: and John Richardson. Reuben was a widely respected private dealer 396 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: whose artists included Richard Deepencorn, Robert Motherwell, and Robert Rauschenberg. 397 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,479 Speaker 1: Larry Ruben was very famous because he was the brother 398 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: of Bill Reuben, who I had actually worked for in 399 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: the seventies. They were arguably two of the most important 400 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: people in the entire art world. Bill Reuben was the 401 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: chief curator of the Museum of Modern Art, and that 402 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: was a time when the chief curator of the Museum 403 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: of Modern Art was more important than any director anywhere. 404 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 1: And the fact that his brother actually ran Knodler was 405 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: a let's say, a subject of both admiration and envy 406 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: and some sort of I would say snarkiness, because people 407 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: would say, well, Bill Rubens having a big Frank Stella 408 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: show at the Museum of Modern Art, which would of 409 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: course make Frank Stella's incredibly valuable. And at the same 410 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,479 Speaker 1: time Stella was represented by his brother who was running 411 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: the Nodler Gallery. So there was some more than whispering 412 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: about conflict of interest, but um, it was evaded by 413 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: Bill Reuben very effectively. We'll be back in a minute. 414 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: What grows in the forest trees? Sure, no, what else 415 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: grows in the forest, Our imagination, our sense of wonder, 416 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect 417 00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: from this and connect with this, we recon necked with 418 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find 419 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: a forest near you and start exploring. I Discover the 420 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: Forest dot Org brought to you by the United States 421 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: Forest Service and the ad Council. After thirty years, it's 422 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: time to return to the halls of West Beverly High 423 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: and hang out at the peach pit. On the podcast 424 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: nine O two one OMG joined Jenny Garth and Tori 425 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills 426 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: nine O two one oh. From the very beginning, we 427 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: get to tell the fans all of the behind the 428 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what happened 429 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: on camera, obviously, but we can tell them all the 430 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the juicy 431 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: details of every episode that you've been wondering about for decades. 432 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: As nine O two one oh, super fan and radio 433 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 1: host Sissany sits in with Jenny and Tory, two reminisce, 434 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: reflect and relive each moment, from Brandon and Kelly's first 435 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have an amazing memory. 436 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 1: You remember everything about the entire ten years that we 437 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: film that show, and you remember absolutely nothing of the 438 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: ten years that we film that show. Listen to nine 439 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: O two one OMG on the I Heart Radio app, 440 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Conquer your 441 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: New Year's resolution to be more productive with the Before 442 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: Breakfast podcast. In each bite sized daily episode, time management 443 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: and productivity expert Laura Vanderkam teaches you how to make 444 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: the most of your time, both at work and at home. 445 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: These are the practical suggestions you need to get more 446 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: done with your day. Just as lifting weights keeps our 447 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: body strong as we age, learning new skills is the 448 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen to Before Breakfast wherever 449 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Larry brought with him a number 450 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: of artists who really almost overnight returned the note alert 451 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: to some sort of eminence. I mean, I'm thinking of 452 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: obviously Stella, as you mentioned, Deven Corn, Richard deven Corn 453 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: another huge coup, and was in Robert Rauschenberg there for 454 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: at least part of the town. Yes, I think Rauschenberg 455 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 1: was there, and mother, well, you know, abstract expressionism was 456 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: Bill and Larry's kind of sweet spot. And so you know, 457 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: those artists were artists that were celebrated the Museum of 458 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: Modern Art and celebrated and I'm sure ensured Ndler's financial 459 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: viability and success at that time, along with Larry Reuben 460 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: Michael Hammer's other heavy gun was John Richardson, an english 461 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: born critic, curator, Picasso biographer and men about town. He 462 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: told naughty stories about wealthy people and made them clamor 463 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: for more. Along with handling artists he brought to Knoedler himself. 464 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: Richardson was induced to take on Salvador Dolly, or as 465 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: he came to put it, to join the Dolly team. 466 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: Dolly had been with k Noodler since the nineteen pennies, 467 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: when Roland Ballet had brought him in. Roland's wife Felice, 468 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: tells the story of how he brought Dolly to Roland 469 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: was a very good friend of Christian Dior since they 470 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: were young, and Christian Dior was had a little gallery 471 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: in Paris, and he and Rollan had lunch one day 472 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: and Dior said to him, you know, I'm representing a 473 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: Spanish artist. I'm having a show of his right now. 474 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: Would you come to the gallery after lunch? And Rolland 475 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: said sure, I'd love to. And he went to the 476 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: gallery and looked at the paintings and it was this 477 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: young Spanish artist named Salvador Dolly. And of course nod 478 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: La Gallery was a big deal gallery and Christian Dior 479 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: just had this little thing and he said to Roland, 480 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: do you really like him? He said, yes, I like 481 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: his work very much. And Dior said, would you be 482 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: interested in taking him on for Ndler and Rolland said, 483 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: I really would. I'd like to meet him and I'd 484 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: like to to see more of his work. And that's 485 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: what happened, and his role on always tells the story. 486 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: I took Dolly to Knodler and Christian Deal went onto 487 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: the dress business. Dolly's health was fragile now, but the 488 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: old surrealist remained immensely popular and sold out bi annual 489 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: shows at Nodler with a little help from the staff. 490 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: In an interview for Vanity Fair, Richardson described Dolly's poignant situation. 491 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: It was fascinating because he couldn't draw anymore. Richardson recalled 492 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: of Dolly his hands were too weak for him to 493 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: do the work. All he could do was sign his name. 494 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: His eyes had gone. To put Dolly in a good mood, 495 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: the staff would bring female models down to the basement, 496 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: have them undress, and tell them to roll around naked 497 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: on law pieces of rolling paper smeared with blue paint. 498 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: For one show, Dolly had the idea to do holograms 499 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: of his own work, but he hadn't made them yet. 500 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: Richardson explained, in order to do them, we had to 501 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: find some original dollies. So Roland and I went down 502 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: to the basement and we found a bunch of old 503 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: nineteen century sculpture of no great distinction. We got someone 504 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: to paint antlers on a loaf of bread and other 505 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: surrealist cliches, and this crap sold. Dolly's only contribution was 506 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: a huge signature, because that's all he could do anymore. 507 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: It was, in its way a kind of art world fraud, 508 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: except that the clay lumps and the blue painted paper 509 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: and the holograms were at least touched and blessed by 510 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: the artist, and buyers, foolish as they might be, more 511 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,239 Speaker 1: or less new what they were buying. Coincidentally, it was 512 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: at a Salvador Dolly opening at the n Odler Gallery 513 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight where Philly Say first laid eyes 514 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: on Roland Dallet. As she recalls, it was love at 515 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:12,399 Speaker 1: first sight. It was a Dolly opening. I was representing 516 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: Dolly at the time in the United States, and I 517 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: went with his manager and his wife and we went 518 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: to the gallery and as I walked in, I saw 519 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: this man at the end of the gallery and I 520 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: just thought to myself, my god, that's the man of 521 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: my life. I was married at the time you were married. Yes, 522 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: he was married with I don't know how many mistresses, 523 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: and there were thirty eight years between you. Yes, he 524 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: was so delightfully charming. This is European elegance like doesn't 525 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: exist anymore, didn't even really exist then. It was five 526 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: years later, in nineteen seventy three, when Philie Say was 527 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: arriving at Michael Hammer's gallery to meet a client for lunch. 528 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: When would bring the two back together this time for good. 529 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: I went to the gallery and we were up on 530 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: the second floor and the elevator opened and then off 531 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: the elevator came roll on and I was like, oh 532 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: my god, and I said, I've been in Paris for 533 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,479 Speaker 1: three months. If I can't pull this off today, there's 534 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 1: something definitely wrong with me. At the end of lunch, 535 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: we got up and rolland came over to me and 536 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: he said, you know, I really enjoyed having lunch with you. 537 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: I find you charming, but I would like it if 538 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: we could have lunch just the two of us, would 539 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: you do that? And I said, just tell me when. 540 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: And we had lunch the next day and really practically 541 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: didn't separate from that moment on. With the sale of 542 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: Knodler to armand Hammer, Roland Ballet began organizing his exit. 543 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: He married Philie Say, she at twenty eight, he at 544 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: sixty six, and the two moved to Paris. They lived 545 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: like the newly weds. They were oblivious to their nearly 546 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,240 Speaker 1: four decade age difference until armand Hammer disrupted their idol. 547 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: Hammer owed a third and final payment to Ballet to 548 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: complete his purchase of the Knoedler Gallery and simply refused 549 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: to make it. Roland was appalled. He never thought armand 550 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: Hammer would be so awful and such a crook, Pelisse 551 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: recalled later a judge had to intervene. We were in 552 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: Paris and we got this call from his lawyer that 553 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: Almand Hamma was going to be in New York in 554 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: two days and he wanted to settle it, and Roland, 555 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: if he really wanted to do, they should come to 556 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: New York. So we dropped everything and flew to New York. 557 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: Roland went to court and Hammah was there and the 558 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: thing was. He said, yes, you know all settlements. And 559 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: Roland said, I I have to go back to France 560 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: and I have things to do, and if you want 561 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: to settle it, I want a bank check for it 562 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: by the end of the day. Today Hammer gave the check. 563 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: By the end of the day, the bank check, and 564 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: we went back to Paris. Six of the art business. 565 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: Roland Ballet resigned as Noodler's director and settled in to 566 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: enjoy what would prove to be twenty five more years 567 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: of conjugal bliss with his young and adoring wife. He 568 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 1: owned one of the two buildings on East seventy Street, 569 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: number twenty one, which would eventually pass to Philly Say 570 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: and be sold by her in two thousand eleven for 571 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,439 Speaker 1: fifteen and a half million dollars, but he rarely came 572 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: to the gallery anymore. So he almost certainly failed to 573 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: notice a nine year old salesperson who joined Nodler in 574 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: December nine. Her name was Ann Friedman, and her impact 575 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: on the gallery would be both profound and tragic. Over 576 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: many of its fifty plus years, the Knoler had been 577 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: a living, breathing presence, a character in the story of 578 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: twenty century art. Its fortunes had risen and sometimes dipped, 579 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: but its reputation remained intact, and the employees who chose 580 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: to work there for modest salaries were personally devoted to it. 581 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,959 Speaker 1: They would find in Ann Freedman a very different kind 582 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: of gallerists, one much more focused on money that art. 583 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: Over a fourteen year period, Ann Friedman oversaw the selling 584 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: of more than sixty disputed paintings, reaping eighty million dollars 585 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: for the gallery, A trio of forgers and Freedman herself 586 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: to the shock and scorn of the entire contemporary art market. 587 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: She even managed to open a new gallery, Friedman Arts, 588 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: on the third floor of a town house on East 589 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: seventy third Street, next door to the chic Via Quadrono restaurant. 590 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: She goes up and down those stairs every day, a 591 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: free woman, but a shunned presence in this neighborhood of 592 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 1: world renowned dealers. We're coming back from Frank Stella's studio 593 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: and you got a call and now he's boiling. He 594 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,720 Speaker 1: wants to kill her. That's next time on art fraud. 595 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: Come with me and you be, you know, world of 596 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: pure imagination Taco and you see into your imagination Art. 597 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: Fraud is brought to you by I Heart Radio and 598 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: Cavalry Audio. Our executive producers are Matt del Piano, Keegan Rosenberger, 599 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: myself and Michael s Ayerson. We're produced by Brandon Morgan 600 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: and Zach McNeice. Zack also edited and mixed this episode. 601 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: Lindsay Hoffman is our managing producer. Our writer is Michael Schneerson. 602 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: If you want to view Parahize, simply look around and 603 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: not ething you want want to change the world, There's nothing. 604 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: What's up, guys? I'm a Shop Bloud and I am 605 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: Troy Millions and we are the host of the Ernia 606 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: Leisure podcast when we break down business models and examine 607 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: the latest trans and finance. We hold court and have 608 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: exclusive interviews with some of the biggest names of business, 609 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: sporting and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick 610 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: Ross and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean. Our alumni list is expansive. 611 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,320 Speaker 1: Listen in as our guests reveal their business models, hardships 612 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: and triumphs and their respective fields. The knowledge is in 613 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: death and the questions are always delivered from your standpoint. 614 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: We want to know what you want to know. We 615 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: talked to the legends of business, sports, and entertainment about 616 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: how they got their start and most importantly, how they 617 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: make their money. Earn Your Leisia is a college business 618 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: class mixed with pop culture. I want to learn about 619 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 1: the real estate game, unclears, how the stock market works. 620 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,720 Speaker 1: We got you interested in starting a truck and company 621 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: or vendor machine business. Not really sure about how taxes 622 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: or credit work. We got it all covered. The Earnier 623 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 1: Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earn Your Leisure 624 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: on the Black Effect podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app, 625 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. This is 626 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay, the host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, the 627 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,839 Speaker 1: bad feminist podcast of Your Dreams. Each week, I talked 628 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,800 Speaker 1: to an interesting person about feminine is, some race, writing 629 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: in books, and art, food, have culture, and yes, politics, 630 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: we can't escape politics. Listen to the Luminary original podcast, 631 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: The Rock Sand Gay Agenda every Tuesday on the I 632 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 633 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: On the latest season of the Next Question with Katie 634 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: Correct podcast, Katie dives into Well Katie Here exclusive podcast 635 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,399 Speaker 1: only conversations between Katie and the people who made her 636 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 1: memoir Going There possible. Katie is a pack rad and 637 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: she has basically her own archive of sorts in her basements. Plus, 638 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: Katie explores some of the big news stories she's covered 639 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,919 Speaker 1: over the decades and the people behind them, like Anita Hill, 640 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: I thought I could just get back to my life, 641 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: and that was impossible. It was not going to be 642 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 1: the same. There's plenty of Katie's signature curiosity and no 643 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: holds barred interviews, along with some of her own and 644 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,240 Speaker 1: revealing answers. We spent a lot of time together around 645 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: a dining room table here and in the city, and 646 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: you know, it was a very intense experience. All episodes 647 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,240 Speaker 1: of Next Question with Katie Curic are available now. Listen 648 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 649 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.