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Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Robert Evans. This is Behind the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where every week we talk about the worst

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Speaker 1: people in all of history, and today we have a

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Speaker 1: very special episode. Today we're talking about the man keeping

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Speaker 1: eight chan alive, or at least trying to fellow named

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Speaker 1: Jim Watkins Um And I should probably summarize from my

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Speaker 1: listeners who have not somehow caught this story, even though

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Speaker 1: I've covered it pretty heavily. All of twenty nineteen, a

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Speaker 1: chant was started as a radical free speech bashion on

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Speaker 1: the Internet and kind of the the the image of

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Speaker 1: a site called four chan. One of its sections, Pole

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Speaker 1: became a high of about right Nazism and gradually grew

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Speaker 1: dedicated to inspiring acts of terrorism. In March of this year,

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Speaker 1: one of the members of Pole live streamed video of

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Speaker 1: himself massacring Muslims and mosques in New Zealand. This was

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Speaker 1: the christ Church massacre. I'm sure everybody heard of that.

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Speaker 1: Since then, eight chan members carried out two more shootings

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Speaker 1: in Pawe and El Paso before the site was pulled

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Speaker 1: off the Internet, and the weeks since there's been one

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Speaker 1: more shooting in Hall, Germany, which was eight out by

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Speaker 1: another poster from Pole. The website is currently down, but

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Speaker 1: it's new owner, in the subject of today's episode, Jim Watkins,

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Speaker 1: is working tirelessly to bring it back online. But before

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Speaker 1: we get to Jim, we should probably talk about the

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Speaker 1: elephant of the room, which is the fact that my

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Speaker 1: guest today, Frederick Brennan, is the creator of eight chan

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Speaker 1: in the first place, back in two thousand thirteen. Hello Frederick, Hello,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing today? I'm doing, you know, as

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Speaker 1: good as could be, uh expected? Yeah, this is uh,

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Speaker 1: this is an entry, an odd episode. I'm sure it's

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Speaker 1: one I I didn't expect to record. Um, but you

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Speaker 1: and I have started working together a little bit over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks. We just put out an

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Speaker 1: article in Belling Cat about the state of California's failure

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Speaker 1: to bring eight chan back on, and you've you've become

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty much an activist against the site's resurrection. I

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Speaker 1: think it'd be fair to say, sure, yeah, that would

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Speaker 1: be fair. Um. So again, I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: our listeners, you've done a lot of interviews before, so

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go too crazy into detail on

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Speaker 1: on you know, your whole back story, because people can

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Speaker 1: find plenty of that if they want to. But for

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Speaker 1: the sake of making this whole episode internally consistent, could

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Speaker 1: you like kind of walk us through a little bit

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Speaker 1: of your background up to like what kind of inspired

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Speaker 1: you to create eight chan in the first place? Right, So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was an image board user for a

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Speaker 1: very long time, starting in UM when I was twelve

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Speaker 1: years old on four Chuan. So obviously that's a great

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Speaker 1: place to spend your teenage years there, there's um no

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Speaker 1: problem with that at all. So obviously, you know, it

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Speaker 1: kind of warps how you think about, you know, broader

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Speaker 1: society and yourself and all sorts of things because you

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Speaker 1: spend all your time in anonymous communication basically, UM, I

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Speaker 1: you know, had been involved in fortune for those years.

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Speaker 1: And in two thousand and ten, when four tans owner

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Speaker 1: removed the board that would later become the poll board,

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Speaker 1: it used to was originally called and for News, So

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Speaker 1: he removed that, and he also removed the R nine

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Speaker 1: k board. It just turned out that those were the

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Speaker 1: two boards that I at that time at least was

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Speaker 1: using the most. So and what was our nine kuh

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Speaker 1: robot nine thousand, I don't know where that name really

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Speaker 1: comes from. I do know that the original intent of

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Speaker 1: our nine k was that you couldn't make the same

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Speaker 1: post twice, meaning if anybody had ever posted something, it

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Speaker 1: couldn't be posted again. That was the original intention, right

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Speaker 1: it started me, I suppose, but it quickly just turned

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Speaker 1: into uh a very sad, very kind of depressing word

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Speaker 1: to be honest, because because people couldn't really repost memes,

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Speaker 1: you know, they would mostly just tell stories about their life,

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Speaker 1: and the images they would post would tend to be

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Speaker 1: because they wouldn't want to get muted by the automoderator

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Speaker 1: that will not allow you to post the same thing twice,

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Speaker 1: So they would tend to post, you know, stories about

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Speaker 1: their life, stories about things that had happened. And given

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Speaker 1: that we were all you know, image board users, teenagers

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Speaker 1: that were most likely socially awkward, you know, the stories

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Speaker 1: quickly all became depressing. Um. Wizard chan grew out of

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Speaker 1: R nine K, as did I would say a lot

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Speaker 1: of the modern cell. Now would you would you explain

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Speaker 1: what wizard chan is because this is we're getting into

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Speaker 1: some deep Internet lore um that I am most most

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Speaker 1: people aren't familiar with. So there's four chan and eight

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Speaker 1: chan the sites that I would say that most I

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Speaker 1: guess news conscious Americans would know, right, But there's all

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Speaker 1: these other smaller chance like the one you just covered

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Speaker 1: earlier today for Bellancare you know, do googla chant in

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Speaker 1: Brazilian in Brazilian Portuguese. So there's all these other chance

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Speaker 1: because especially before, they weren't that hard to set up,

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Speaker 1: you know, there weren't really that many people trying to

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Speaker 1: take them down. UM, So any any ciss admin with

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Speaker 1: a little bit of experience could set up one of

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Speaker 1: these chans. And that was how wizard chan started. I

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Speaker 1: didn't start it, as has been reported by a few.

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Speaker 1: It started I think around two thousand twelve, and the

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Speaker 1: guy who started it was UM basically kicked out for

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Speaker 1: being UM. The idea of wizard chan is that all

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Speaker 1: the posters are going to be male virgins. So the

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Speaker 1: original creator was kicked out, uh for having a homosexual relationship.

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say that came to light, so

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Speaker 1: he had to retire. UM. I took it over and

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Speaker 1: then I eventually, you know, would have a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a woman, so I had to give it up. The

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Speaker 1: next person it went to, I think they UM, I

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Speaker 1: think they committed suicide, but nobody's really sure. And now

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Speaker 1: I think it's on its fourth or fifth or it

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Speaker 1: could even be sixth. Owner I haven't really been keeping

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Speaker 1: tracks we were talking about is very different, it seems,

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Speaker 1: or at least in my understanding, from like the in

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Speaker 1: cell community, because it's not like this um conspiratorial like

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Speaker 1: I haven't gotten laid because women are evil sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: It's more like a kind of a support system like I.

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Speaker 1: I guess what you could Yeah, what you could say

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Speaker 1: is that these community grew into the modern in cell community.

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Speaker 1: For sure, are nine K wizard Chan, all of them

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Speaker 1: grew into what we see today as like the modern

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Speaker 1: in sales. I suppose, I don't you know, certainly there

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Speaker 1: were a lot of toxic users when I was wizard

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Speaker 1: Chan's admin for that short period it I didn't even

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Speaker 1: make it a year. Um Certainly there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of toxic users. There were a lot of suicides, at

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Speaker 1: least four in the time that I was admin, and

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Speaker 1: you could see the beginning of toxicity beginning to um start.

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Speaker 1: Because after there were so many suicides, I put up

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Speaker 1: a suicide hotline from multiple countries, and that started to

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Speaker 1: become very controversial, and that was one reason that I

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Speaker 1: was very disliked among the users, because they said, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's no way that Norman can ever understand us, so

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Speaker 1: us calling a suicide helpline is the worst advice you

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Speaker 1: could give. Basically, that was their whole spiel. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was a very dark time. Um, Like I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't create it, and I only lasted in its

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Speaker 1: administration for a year. The skills that I learned, you know,

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Speaker 1: definitely informed h JAM, you know, the skills with the

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Speaker 1: image board software, the administration, what to do about, you know,

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Speaker 1: certain types of attacks that were kind of in their

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Speaker 1: infancy at that time. UM. Yeah, this is getting us

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Speaker 1: a little bit off topic, but I'm really fascinated by

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Speaker 1: the general subject of kind of how the internet went

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Speaker 1: from where it was when uh I was younger, a

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Speaker 1: teenager and like where it was when you were a teenager,

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Speaker 1: to like where what we're dealing with right now. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I like, definitely you have some pieces of that puzzle.

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Speaker 1: I think everybody who was extremely on online in the

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Speaker 1: late nineties fly two thousand halfs just for the sake

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Speaker 1: of number one. Since you talked about like kind of

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Speaker 1: your background here, I'll give it a little bit of

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Speaker 1: my own. I grew up on something awful on those forums,

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Speaker 1: which kind of gave birth to four chan in a way,

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Speaker 1: because Moot, the guy who founded four chan. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think got Piste off at the moderation of something awful

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Speaker 1: for being too strict right the same story as me. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And Christopher thought that there's something awful mods are too

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Speaker 1: stricts starts four chan, and I think Christopher pools so

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Speaker 1: I started, Yeah, there's a lot of that actually later

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Speaker 1: in this story to um. It's very circular. But you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that always struck me. I got

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Speaker 1: banned from something awful when I was younger for I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's probably fifteen or sixteen, and I said

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Speaker 1: something racist. I don't even remember what it was, but

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Speaker 1: they would ban you for that and it costs you

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Speaker 1: ten dollars when you got banned. And it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things that something awful forums are still around today,

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Speaker 1: there's still not a complete toxic pile of like, uh, radicalism. Um,

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Speaker 1: it really all you need is a little bit of

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Speaker 1: of like I went back and forth on this myself

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Speaker 1: as a young man, because I had this period where

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Speaker 1: I was like a kind of very absolutist on the

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Speaker 1: free speech issue, and I'm still not super far from that,

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Speaker 1: but I have come to the conclusion that if you

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Speaker 1: want these communities to not be toxic, you have to

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Speaker 1: draw some lines, like you really do you have to say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well you can't be a Nazi. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: have that here. I definitely understand, and you can actually

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Speaker 1: see a little bit of how um, something awful kind

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Speaker 1: of informed four Chance because a lot of these rules

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Speaker 1: against being racist are actually applied to of four Chance boards.

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Speaker 1: The thing that Christopher Pool changed is that Okay, he

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Speaker 1: made it so that he created a few boards you know,

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Speaker 1: be in particular, but then later also the end and

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Speaker 1: then the pool where you could be a racist. So

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like he opened the door to that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of interesting lessons for the future and

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Speaker 1: their people take them. But we should continue with the story.

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Speaker 1: So around two thirteen, uh is when you coded a

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Speaker 1: chan you want to I mean that that's a story

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Speaker 1: that involves drugs for one thing, which I know my

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Speaker 1: audience will like and I always like to hear. So

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Speaker 1: if if you don't mind. You can give the cliffs

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Speaker 1: notes of that one. Yeah, so you know, I was

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Speaker 1: on a drug trip at the time. Um, for me,

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Speaker 1: it's like I keep repleting one small part of that

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Speaker 1: drug trip, which you know it later turned out to

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Speaker 1: define a big part of my life. But you know,

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Speaker 1: and I think back to that drug part drug trip,

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Speaker 1: I should say it was just like one small moment

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Speaker 1: in a bigger experience. But anyway, I was kind of

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Speaker 1: still really high, but like over the peak, I guess

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Speaker 1: you could say. And I was on the computer, and

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Speaker 1: I was screwing around on four Chan, which was normal

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Speaker 1: for me in you know, I had kind of at

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Speaker 1: that time forgiven Pool because he put our nine k

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Speaker 1: and uh he added a new board which was at

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Speaker 1: the time called Pool. So even though I wasn't very

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Speaker 1: happy that he didn't add the board back as news

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Speaker 1: and that it was a pink board now and not

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Speaker 1: a blue board, I know that that might be basically

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Speaker 1: it was not safer work versus safer work, right, that's

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Speaker 1: the only different right. So But anyway, you know, I

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Speaker 1: decided to just let bygones be bygones. And I was

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Speaker 1: using four channel a lot at the time, and I

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Speaker 1: just decided or I just started thinking about, you know,

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Speaker 1: my experience as being a wizard Chad's admin in the

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Speaker 1: past at that time, and all these other smaller image

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Speaker 1: board communities, and I just thought, you know, wouldn't it

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Speaker 1: be great if, like Reddit, the users of these image

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Speaker 1: boards could decide the boards and not the admin, right like,

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Speaker 1: because I felt like the main problem at that time

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Speaker 1: was the admin of four Chune was unaccountable and he

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Speaker 1: could just add and remove boards, and a board could

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Speaker 1: be requested for years by many users and he won't

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Speaker 1: add it just because he doesn't personally see the appeal

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Speaker 1: or doesn't like it. So that's kind of why I

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Speaker 1: decided to start h H. And I figured, you know,

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Speaker 1: Reddit works, and it works for Reddit, so why couldn't

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Speaker 1: it work for uh eight chan, I suppose. So it

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Speaker 1: was essentially like this desire to like hybridize Reddit in

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Speaker 1: eight chan and make a place where the users would

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Speaker 1: have even more control over the structure of the community

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Speaker 1: and what was said there and the right and and

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Speaker 1: and one really weird part of this story is that

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Speaker 1: like there's there's like, you know, eight chan, which was

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Speaker 1: very different than what we now what we know in

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Speaker 1: especially you know, yeah, yeah, where basically, yeah, basically, nothing

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Speaker 1: is really set in stone until gamer Gate. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's really no community. And a few months after I

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Speaker 1: started eight chan and nobody was using it, I just figured,

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Speaker 1: you know, this kind of failed, but it's still it's

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Speaker 1: still a cool technical demo. So I'll leave it online.

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Speaker 1: I'll put it on my resume, air portfolio or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and that'll be it. You know, I was kind of

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Speaker 1: very surprised by, uh, gamer gate type thing. I didn't

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Speaker 1: I wasn't really expecting it. Yeah, And so gamer Gate,

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Speaker 1: for our listeners that don't know, was, uh, it's one

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Speaker 1: side would say it was about ethics and video game journalism.

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Speaker 1: The other side would say it was a harassment campaign

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Speaker 1: against primarily female video game journalists. Um, it was this

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Speaker 1: big social movement on the Internet that was fairly reactionary

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Speaker 1: and kind of fed into and was manipulated by guys

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Speaker 1: like Steve Bannon, guys like Milianopolis, and kind of metastasized

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Speaker 1: into large chunks of what we started calling the alt

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Speaker 1: right in two thousand sixteen. I think that that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a succinct way of describing gamer Gate, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, gamer Gate it's one of its big organizing places.

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Speaker 1: Initially was on four Chan, and when the harassment of

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Speaker 1: some of these women journalists got too serious, they were

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Speaker 1: kicked off of four Chan and migrated to eight chan.

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Speaker 1: And that's really what grew it into like started the

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Speaker 1: process of it attracting enough people to really grow into

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Speaker 1: a large site. Right. And that's exactly or almost exactly

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Speaker 1: where Jim Watkins comes into the picture, because yeah, that

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Speaker 1: is exactly where and this is where we should get

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Speaker 1: into the actual written article that I had. And I'm

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Speaker 1: before you start, it's like, I'm not trying to minimize

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Speaker 1: my own involvement. You know, my deciding to allow han

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Speaker 1: to be a place where anybody could post anything that

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Speaker 1: was legal was not smart. You know. I was very

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Speaker 1: young and naive, you could say that, but I it

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Speaker 1: wasn't smart. It was probably wrong, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: wrong to start h han when I had basically no experience,

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Speaker 1: instead of looking to what had happened in the past. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: But I really feel that the reason it's more about

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Speaker 1: Jim Watkins is because he was an older man who

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Speaker 1: had been doing this for many, many years, and he

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Speaker 1: kind of just for me, was somebody that represented it's

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Speaker 1: all okay because Jim says it's okay, or it's all

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Speaker 1: okay to do this because Jim is even taking legal liability,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So I want to there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of things I want to get into so

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Speaker 1: that will make a little more sense. Is Number one,

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Speaker 1: how how old are you when you start this site?

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Speaker 1: So you're you're you're I mean, you're a kid. I

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Speaker 1: think we can all agree nineteen year olds, they're legally adults,

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Speaker 1: but you're a kid at nineteen. Um, it's a very

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Speaker 1: that's a very young person. Uh. This site explodes in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and fourteen. It gets expensive to run, it

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Speaker 1: gets to be a gigantic time sync to keep online.

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Speaker 1: And Jim Watkins a millionaire with a business network overseas.

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Speaker 1: And we'll get into Jim in a little bit here

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Speaker 1: and explain where he comes from. But this millionaire business

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Speaker 1: owner comes in and says, I'll buy the site and

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Speaker 1: I'll keep it online, and I will give you a

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Speaker 1: job if you keep it running in our the face

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Speaker 1: of this company. That's essentially the deal, Yes, essentially, And

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Speaker 1: you know, had he not showed up, it would have

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Speaker 1: probably totally disintegrated. There's one other thing I want to ask,

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Speaker 1: because you mentioned it is sort of like this decision

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Speaker 1: to allow anything as long as it's legal on eight chan. Um,

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Speaker 1: was there a moment where you were first sort of

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Speaker 1: confronted by you know, the Nazi ship and and had

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Speaker 1: to kind of was that a debate you had with

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Speaker 1: yourself or was it kind of present enough for in

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Speaker 1: the beginning that when you decided to kind of let

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Speaker 1: the community continue, you were deciding to accept that as

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Speaker 1: part of it. You know. The weird thing is four

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Speaker 1: chan itself kind of evolved, I guess you could say

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Speaker 1: on this, and I felt that because four chune was

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Speaker 1: a much more popular site. I really felt at the

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Speaker 1: time that I couldn't disallow anything that four channel allowed

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Speaker 1: because I wouldn't be able to correct users that way.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I was right about that, but

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Speaker 1: that's how I felt. And four chune at the time,

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Speaker 1: like I said, they delete did the and board for

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Speaker 1: news and then they brought it back as politically incorrect,

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Speaker 1: And I I believe that small cues like that to

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Speaker 1: users really matter. Like they could have called it poll

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Speaker 1: for politics that would have been just as acceptable, right,

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Speaker 1: But Pool decided to call it politically incorrect. So it

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Speaker 1: seemed to me at the time like he wanted to

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Speaker 1: attract all of the real far right Nazi people to

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Speaker 1: that board, and the theory is that it would be

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Speaker 1: like a containment board, like he will contain them in

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Speaker 1: this politics board, this politically incorrect board. So you know,

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Speaker 1: it was it wasn't really a debate for me because

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Speaker 1: I would just argue it to myself and others as well,

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Speaker 1: how can you say that h n can't have a

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Speaker 1: poll board when four chun does. You know, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: shitty and it's very much all about practicality, but that

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Speaker 1: that would be how I would explain it to you

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Speaker 1: at the time. Yeah, And it's you know, I understand

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Speaker 1: there's probably gonna be people listening to this, UM who

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Speaker 1: don't think that I'm grilling you enough on the moral

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Speaker 1: questions on this, And I want to say here, that's

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Speaker 1: partly because I've been watching what you've been doing over

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Speaker 1: the last three or four months, UM, and how much

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Speaker 1: effort you've put into keeping this site offline. And it's

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Speaker 1: partly because when I was eighteen nineteen years old, I

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Speaker 1: held a lot of political beliefs and beliefs about the

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Speaker 1: nature of you know, free speech and stuff like that

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Speaker 1: that I do not currently hold. And I said things

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Speaker 1: that I regret now and that I wouldn't say now.

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Speaker 1: And I think most people have something like that. We

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Speaker 1: just didn't know how to code image boards and have

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Speaker 1: an idea to make one. Um. So it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where I think it is important for you

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Speaker 1: to like take stock of your your part and all

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Speaker 1: this and and and regret making the site. Um. But

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Speaker 1: I also think it'd be unreasonable for someone who expect

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Speaker 1: you to wear a hair, especially since you were out

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Speaker 1: of the picture by the time people started getting shot. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: far out of the picture. Yeah yeah, So um we

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Speaker 1: should we should, We should get into Jim Watkins's story

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Speaker 1: well before we get into gym story. It's actually a

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Speaker 1: time for a really awkward ad pivot, uh now, Frederick.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes when I do one of these ad pivots, I

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Speaker 1: will let my my guests suggest a random product that

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Speaker 1: they just think people should buy. Do you have any

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Speaker 1: random products you would like people to buy or you'd

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Speaker 1: like concepts were you know, concepts are products you know. Um,

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Speaker 1: I have really been enjoying recently Bluetooth speakers. There's so

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Speaker 1: much more fun than um those little headphone things that

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Speaker 1: always fall out of your ears and hurt your ears,

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Speaker 1: at least for me may because my ear canals are

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Speaker 1: not the right shape. So I have been putting them everywhere. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's becoming a bit of a problem. Oh I have

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Speaker 1: one in my Yeah, I have a few in my

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Speaker 1: a few in my m condo where I live, a

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Speaker 1: few in my car. You know. Uh, I've even been

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Speaker 1: thinking of like putting them like in the bathroom and

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Speaker 1: just playing constant. You know, I don't know. Elevator music.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, that's my product. I I feel

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Speaker 1: the same way. I love sitting outside having a campfire

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Speaker 1: with a Bluetooth speaker listening to rap music. It's a

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Speaker 1: great way to spend a Thursday night. Um, so buy

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Speaker 1: Bluetooth speakers, fill your house with them, and fill your

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Speaker 1: house with these other products that actually paid our show something.

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Speaker 1: We're back all right, So uh we've gotten through kind

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Speaker 1: of the background here. Um, and uh, the situation that

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Speaker 1: we've moved up to is like you've you've built this website.

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Speaker 1: It's big, it's increasingly influential, and it's increasingly expensive and

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Speaker 1: a gigantic pain, and he has to keep online. There's

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Speaker 1: clearly a ticking clock on how long a chan can

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Speaker 1: last if you alone continue to on it. And into

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Speaker 1: this situation steps a man named Jim now James Arthur

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Speaker 1: Watkins was born in Dayton, Washington on November twenty, nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty four. He was raised on a family farm out

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Speaker 1: in Muktio or Mukidio, Washington. People are gonna yell at

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Speaker 1: me from getting this wrong Muktio Washington. Uh so out

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Speaker 1: in the country. He's a he's a farm boy. His

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Speaker 1: mother worked for Boeing and his father worked for the

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Speaker 1: local phone company. Now, growing up in the sixties and seventies,

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Speaker 1: James didn't have a history with computers, obviously because it

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Speaker 1: was the sixties and seventies and very few people did.

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Speaker 1: Um And he joined the U. S. Army when he

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Speaker 1: was eighteen in nineteen eighty two. He was eventually provoted

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Speaker 1: to the rank of sergeant first class, and he spent

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Speaker 1: most of his time in the service working as an

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Speaker 1: attack helicopter mechanic and later as a military recruiter. So

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Speaker 1: he's he's a pretty long career in the army. Actually,

401
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Speaker 1: um Amy would give James his first experience with computers

402
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Speaker 1: late in his service. In the nineteen nineties, they sent

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Speaker 1: Jim who a tech focused school in Virginia where he

404
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Speaker 1: got a crash course in the gadgets that would later

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Speaker 1: dominate the world and his life. Now. I can't speak

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Speaker 1: to Jim's overall technical competence, but it seems clear that

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Speaker 1: he at least immediately understood how influential the Internet was

408
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Speaker 1: quickly going to come to be um recognized that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what he wanted, that's the business he wanted to

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Speaker 1: be in. I can speak to it. He's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: great with computers. He understands networking very well though, and

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Speaker 1: he understands like all of the domain registrar. He understands

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Speaker 1: basically a lot of the stuff that keeps him from

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Speaker 1: being deep platforms. Like he's really good with networking. But

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Speaker 1: he's definitely not a programmer, no, And I think he's

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Speaker 1: more a guy who underlike gains kind of a basic

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Speaker 1: technical understanding of what the Internet is at a stage

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Speaker 1: when the Internet is still pretty young, and I think

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Speaker 1: he realizes that it's going to be huge, and that

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a funck load of money and

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Speaker 1: in figuring out to use right um. And he was

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Speaker 1: one of the first people to really capitalize on a

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Speaker 1: very specific part of the Internet, pornography. UH. In the

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Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties, while he was still in the military,

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Speaker 1: he launched a website called Asian Bikini Bar, which he

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Speaker 1: would later describe as one of the largest video streaming

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Speaker 1: adult websites in the world. So that's very classy, um,

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Speaker 1: but legal. I've never heard any allegations that it involved

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Speaker 1: anything underage or anything like that. Um so oh no.

430
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: But but one thing you should be aware of and

431
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 1: that all your listeners should be aware of. One thing

432
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: that Jim was very clever about very early in his

433
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: career is he realized that the Internet, one of the

434
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: main ways that you can make money with it is

435
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: by taking advantage of different jurisdictions. So you can do

436
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: something legal in one jurisdiction that's illegal in another, and

437
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: market it to the jurisdiction where it's illegal. So that's

438
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: the main way that these businesses made money. Yeah, they

439
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: were in Japanese and but hosted from the United States,

440
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: So basically they were porn websites in the United States

441
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: that didn't have to follow Japan's censors censorship laws around pornography. Yeah,

442
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: that was exactly what I was about to get into

443
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: because Japan's no no, no, no, no, You're doing great.

444
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I think it might surprise people because like

445
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: Japan's reputation in America there involves a lot of like lascivious,

446
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: nous pornography and what because that's what gets across the

447
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: Internet to US, but especially back in the nineties, they

448
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: had really strict laws. Um so yeah, exactly like you said, Jim,

449
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: sites were hosted in the US, but they were in

450
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: Japanese and the goal was allowing Japanese people to access

451
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: and share pornography without getting censored. So uh, there's actually

452
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: a fun quote from Jim's current business partner, a guy

453
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: named Tom right l am I pronouncing it right? Yes, Yeah,

454
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 1: I've met this guy multiple times. Yeah, and we'll be

455
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: talking about him a number of times in the article. Um,

456
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: but this is a quote from him talking to Splinter News.

457
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: In two thousand sixteen, they figured out a loophole in

458
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: Japanese censorship rules. Adult material in Japan has to be censored,

459
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: but Japanese people could access content that resides outside of Japan. Bingo.

460
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: The work we did in the following years was really

461
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: just marketing uncensored Japanese content to users in Japan. So

462
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: I this is a story that I think Jim and

463
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: the people around him like to tell a lot. It's

464
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: clearly something he's proud of, like figuring out this loophole

465
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: and building a business around. Yes. Yeah, they really feel

466
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: like this makes them sound very clever, and they love

467
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: they love telling it to everybody who will listen, especially

468
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: libertarian minded people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's nothing speaking as

469
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: a recovering libertarian, there's nothing libertarians like more than a

470
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: story of getting one over on a government. Um. I'm

471
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: not all the way over that, but I'm not sure

472
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: it's entirely a bad thing. Um, but in this case,

473
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: always we'll call it a neutral thing. Uh Now. Um,

474
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: Watkins ran his first porn side. Like I said, Well,

475
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: he was still employed as an army recruiter, which makes

476
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: him one of the least shady army recruiters in the

477
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: history of the service. Um he told them that was

478
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: a joke from my army friends there. Um he told

479
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: the joke the army that he was starting an online business,

480
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: although he didn't tell them that the business was a

481
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: porn site, but this doesn't seem to have created any difficulties.

482
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: The actual first thing that caused him a problem with

483
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: his business was the website's name Asian Bikini Babes, because

484
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: you know, you had to pay to be a member

485
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: of the site, and as Jim noted in two thousand

486
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: and fifteen, that did not go over well with people's wives.

487
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: So this was basically showing up on people's credit card

488
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: statements as an Asian bikini website, and people spouses were like,

489
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: what are you doing spending money on this ship? So

490
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: Jim changed his company name to something that would look

491
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: more innocuous on credit card statements. In T Technology, the

492
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: acronym stands for nothing. It's just the blandest and safest

493
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: name j could think of. Yeah, so, um man, it's good.

494
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: It's a good name for a porn website to have.

495
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: Nobody's gonna think anything now. Int Technology initially made most

496
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: of its money selling advertising on an expanding network of websites.

497
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: Jim added more and more adult sites to the network,

498
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: helping countless horny Japanese people access pornography that would have

499
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: been illegal at a certain point. INTI technology expanded into

500
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: web hosting two in nine seven, either one or two

501
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: years before Jim left the Army, depending on which interview

502
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: you read. They're not all completely consistent, so I can't

503
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: say for sure he's either ninety eight or ninety nine

504
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: that he quit, though, But in nine seven Jim Watkins

505
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: met Tom Rydell uh Now. At the time, Rydell was

506
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: an art student living in Pittsburgh. Here's how he recalled

507
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: their meeting. One day in the summer of nineteen nine seven,

508
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: my roommates ran in and told me they met the

509
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: King of porn in the park walking his poodle. Watkins

510
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: apparently headed off with these teenage boys uh and told

511
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: them he was looking for artists to make banner ads

512
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: for him. And I think Rightel's about nineteen years old

513
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: too when this happens. Wow, can you imagine that Jim

514
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: Watkins going to an art school looking for Hello, fellow kids,

515
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: would you like to make some bad our ads for me? Like? What?

516
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: I you know? I actually, I think there might be

517
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 1: some logic in the through line of him working with

518
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen year old kids who have a talent that

519
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: he needs, but they're also young enough that they don't

520
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: know what they're worth for one thing, like they're notulaically exactly.

521
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: He's a man who spent sixteen years in the military

522
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: at this point, he's certainly more capable of negotiating. And

523
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: isn't isn't being an army recruiter all about manipulating? Yes,

524
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: lying the children boys? Yeah, So I feel like there's

525
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: a repeating pattern here. Um. He definitely is one of

526
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: the people who's been most successful at building a business

527
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: from lying to teenagers. Um, he's he's great at that.

528
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: So he he gives right El and his friends some

529
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: freelance work, and then right El says, quote after that,

530
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: I started working full time, and the next summer I

531
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: drove with him and his family across country to Seattle,

532
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: where we set up an office. So right Del and Jim,

533
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: you know, expand INTI technology and and you know, start

534
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: hosting more sites in a wider variety of sites. Uh.

535
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: And in nineties eight or ninety nine, Jim quits the

536
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: army after about sixteen years. He was at that point

537
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: less than a presidential term away from a government pension. Um.

538
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: But he quits before getting the pension because he decides

539
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: it's a better call to dive head first into his

540
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: internet businesses um, and that would this would prove to

541
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: have been a pretty wise call. I suspect he made

542
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: more money in those years than he would have gotten

543
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: from his pension. Um. Yeah, Jim got in on the

544
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: ground floor of the online porn business uh, and he

545
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: made a huge amount of money uh doing that at

546
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: a time when it was still very easy. There was

547
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: this kind of sweet spot in between about nineteen ninety

548
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: seven and like two thousand one or two um, before

549
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: like the dot com bubbles started to crack um where

550
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: you could really make This is also the same time

551
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: John McAfee made his fortune. Um. There's a number of

552
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: kind of similar libertarian guys who sees this six seven

553
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: year window in the Internet and make fucking bank and

554
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: Jim is one of them. Now. In two thousand, Jim's

555
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: hosting company picked up a very significant client, to Channel.

556
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: This site had been created in nineteen nine by hero

557
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: Yuki Nishimura. It was a text only discussion board that

558
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: wound up becoming a central part of early Japanese internet culture,

559
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: and it's still very popular today. Yeah. To Channel is

560
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: mostly commonly abbreviated as two C h UH. And it

561
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: quickly grew to become one of the largest sites in

562
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: the Internet. By two thousand and eight, it was bringing

563
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: in five million page views a month. Now, if we

564
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: view gigantic, barely regulated web boards as a monarchical line,

565
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: to Channel was the progenitor of the dynasty. It inspired

566
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: the creation of an image board, which is basically the

567
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: same as a forum, but the discussion focuses around posted

568
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: images named in its honor, named to chan. I think

569
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 1: people can probably figure out where we're going from here.

570
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: In two thousand three, fifteen year old American named Christopher

571
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: Pool got tired of the moding policies and something awful

572
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: and creates four chan, which is pad and off of

573
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: to chan um So to chan made or to channel

574
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: made great money, and by two thousand eight, Nishimura was

575
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: bringing in around a million dollars a year in profits.

576
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: Uh he told Wired at the time, the only person

577
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: who gets money from two channel is me. Well, I

578
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: guess I pay for the servers and off Coast There's

579
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: servers were owned by Jim Watkins. Now, by the end,

580
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: Watkins charged a lot. You can see that in the

581
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: in the court filings. Yeah, he made a very good

582
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: amount of money off of too channel UM, and by

583
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: the early two thousands he really needed Nishimura's money because

584
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: the dot com bubble had truly popped UH and internet

585
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: porn had gone from the wild West to a very

586
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: crowded market. Int technology was still profitable, but the money

587
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: wasn't rolling in as heavily as it had years before.

588
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: This seems to have impacted Jim's decision to move to

589
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: the Philippines, which is a much cheaper place to live

590
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: UH and to operate a business UM. His main impetus

591
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: for this seems to have been the fact that he'd

592
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: vacationed there before, so in that two thousand six article

593
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: by Splinter, Jim claimed he'd moved to the Philippines in

594
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: two thousand four, but a Washington Post article from two

595
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: thousand nineteen disputes this timeline. They point to a printed

596
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: notice in the Mandila Times about Jim's pending naturalization as

597
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: a Filipino citizen. Jim was required to pay for this

598
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: as part of the naturalization process, and in the notice,

599
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: Jim says he moved to the Philippines on October two,

600
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: two thousand one. He married a Filipino woman less than

601
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: twenty days later. Now their child was born a couple

602
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: of months after that, so it's not as shady as

603
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: it sounds. I did not know. So it's interesting because,

604
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: like you hear, okay, he moved to the Philippines, he

605
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: marries a woman eighteen days later. That sounds like, okay,

606
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: he just found someone to marthy the green card. But

607
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: they had a kid like three months after that. So

608
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: clearly the relationship must have existed for I don't know

609
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: where it started. I don't know if you visited the

610
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: Philippines before, but it clearly started before he moved to

611
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: the Philippines because biology. Um, yeah, so that's that's all interesting,

612
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: and it's it's a again that's very interesting because as well,

613
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: obviously get too later. I'm opposing his petition, So you're

614
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: telling me some things I didn't know. Yeah, well, and

615
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: even this timeline is not certain. In an interview, Watkins

616
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: told The Washington Post that he first started migrating his

617
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: life over to the Philippines in two thousand one, but

618
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: he didn't really commit to moving there until two thousand four,

619
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: and he didn't finish moving there until two thousand seven. Yeah,

620
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: Like there's some things in that petition that are not true. Yeah,

621
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: he claims to be able to speak Filipino. He doesn't.

622
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: He sure does, and that's one. He definitely does not

623
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: speak Filipino at all. And you do, that's the local thing. Yes,

624
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: I do, guy, Yeah, I speak it much better than

625
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: he does. I lived here much shorter time. So that's

626
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're going to be opposing

627
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: in February. But I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. Yeah,

628
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 1: and it's interesting to me too that that Tom Raidel,

629
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,479
Speaker 1: Jim's business partner, told the Washington Post that the court

630
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: noticed Jim had paid for was incorrect. Did not say

631
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: why or give more detail. Um oh, he really told

632
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: the Post that it's incorrect. Yes, Now, in any case,

633
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: Jim moved from the US to the Philippines and the

634
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: early aughts, and by all accounts lived there quite contentedly

635
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: up to the present day. He started a pig farm,

636
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: which does not appear to be profitable, but he also

637
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: created a lot of other businesses. We don't know how

638
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: many he owns or what they all do, but the

639
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: Post has a good breakdown of his the little empire

640
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: he built, and I'm gonna quote a couple of paragraphs

641
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: from their right up. Those include smattering of Manila based

642
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: companies focused on computer services in real world property over

643
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: the years, including a now closed organic food restaurant, and

644
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, a business called Race Queen,

645
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: probably named for the scantily clad models who pose along

646
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: the tracks of Japanese car races. Located in a dilapidated

647
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 1: Manila office tower, Race Queen calls itself a software development

648
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: and outsourcing company. According to a torn sign taped to

649
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: the door. It has also been listed as an employer

650
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: on work basis for four employees of h. Jannon Watkins's

651
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: other message boards, including Brennan Philippines Immigration record show. That

652
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: would be you obviously, that would be me. Yes, and

653
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: that's true, and the reason that it's called Race Queen, Inc.

654
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: Is also accurate. Yeah, okay, good. I'm always a fan

655
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 1: of UM. You know, you get a very professional publication

656
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: by the Post where they really do a pretty good

657
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: job in their normal articles of boiling out personal bias

658
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: and opinion and how much you can say and how

659
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: much shade you can throw just by adding the word

660
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: torn to a sentence, yes, yes, exactly. They can't just

661
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: say due to a sign. Yeah yeah, no, no, no,

662
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: and the dilapidated office build Yeah, definitely, definitely, they do

663
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: throw shade. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Yeah, it would

664
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: be hard not to be so. The naturalization court notice

665
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: said Watkins and his wife had bought several properties across

666
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: the country, including a condo in central Manilla and farms

667
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: outside the city where he said he raised pigs. Philippine

668
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: business records revealed glimpses of a peculiar assortment of businesses

669
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: and Watkins's orbit the company Emerald Pedestal, which is misspelled,

670
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: which lists ownership in Manila condo units and calls Watkins

671
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: chairman of the or. He did that on purpose, by

672
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: the way, to try to avoid certain um suits. That's

673
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: what he told me at least. Yeah, like I know

674
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: a lot of the shell companies. He told me the

675
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 1: Emerald Pedestal is named wrong on purpose. I don't remember

676
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: exactly why, but I think he thought that it would

677
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: make it harder to sue him. John McAfee and this

678
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: guy would really get along with each other. Um, I

679
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: suspect they would be good friends. So yeah, for most

680
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: of the mid aughts, H Jim's businesses hummed along without

681
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: having any discernible impact on the broader culture. He made

682
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: money for himself and his family, and he didn't get

683
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: into the spotlight in any way that I've ever found

684
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: evidence of. Things started to change in two thousand thirteen,

685
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: because that's the year that you've created eight chan, and

686
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: it's also the year that to channel had a massive

687
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: data breach that exposed thirty people's credit card data. Now,

688
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: this down its own is bad, but since much of

689
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: two channels claim to fame was its anonimit, it was

690
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: seen as a particularly huge funk up the data breach.

691
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: Interviewed with the site's ability to make money now, Tom

692
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: Raidell claims that this is why in two thousand fourteen,

693
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 1: Inti Technology took possession of too Channel. The website remains

694
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: huge and a significant source of profit to this day.

695
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: Now Two Channels creator Nishimura disputes legitimacy of Anti Technology

696
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: taking possession of his website. He says, they basically stole it,

697
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: and I think the court cases ongoing. Um, yes it

698
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: is and yeah. In an email interview with splinter News,

699
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: Nishimura claimed, of Watkins, all his businesses have failed, even

700
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: his hosting service was not good. Yeah, I have made

701
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: similar claims. You know, it's a big it's a big

702
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 1: it's a big problem when everything that you're well known

703
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: for you're alleged to have stolen or acquired via shady means.

704
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: I mean, people do get elected to high office with

705
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: that kind of a resume too, So it kind of

706
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: depends on how good you aren't spinning and two do fifteen,

707
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: Christopher Pool sold four chan to Nisha Mura. Um So,

708
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 1: I just think that's really interesting. Like Nisha Mura creates

709
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: the site that inspires the site that four chan is

710
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: based off of, and then Nishimura winds up buying four

711
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: chan like fifteen years later. It's just a fun series

712
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: of events. Now, the year before that purchase, Jim Watkins

713
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: bought eight chan from Frederick Brennan, making him I guess

714
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: the lord of fifty of the chance something like that.

715
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: Um sure, yeah, uh so he has to channel and

716
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: he has eight chan at this point. Um so, Frederick,

717
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: would you walk us through a little bit sort of

718
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: how he reached out to you and kind of what

719
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: you you know, what the deal was and what you

720
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: had to do in order to take this, because it's

721
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: why you're the Philippines now, so Chan it had basically

722
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: no uh way to make money. You know, deep platform

723
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: NG was being used against it all the way back

724
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: in uh uh not even as like hardcore as what's

725
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: going on right now. But we got kicked off of

726
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: all the payment processors very quickly. I was able to

727
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: find servers who would host us, but I could not

728
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: afford that, you know what I mean, without any money

729
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: coming in. And there was no one who would want

730
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: to advertise on h N even even before it was

731
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: known for what it's known for now. You know, people

732
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: just don't like to have their ads on sites that

733
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: hosts Nazis, I know, big shock, right, but and you know,

734
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: it's even hard to find people who want to put

735
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: their ads, like real big corporations on porn sites, so

736
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: porn and Nazis, you basically can't find anybody. So I,

737
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, knew that h HN's days were numbered, and

738
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: I made this pretty clear. I suppose on the official

739
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: h and Twitter and through other means, you know, posting

740
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: on the board, and I started to get uh offers

741
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: basically from people who wanted to acquire a Chan because

742
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: it had been in the news and it had already

743
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: this big community, you know, as far as chance go,

744
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: and there was at the time a real sense that

745
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: it could take over for four chaan like that it

746
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: could unseat four Chan as the main chance. That didn't

747
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: end up happening. But that's what some people thought, including

748
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: maybe myself in my more uh confident moments. But I

749
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 1: started looking at these offers and I really could only

750
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: narrow it down to two, and one of them was

751
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: from a company that had no experience in this at all.

752
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: And I really felt like, with enough pressure, if I

753
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: transferred the servers there, they would crack and then that

754
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: would be it, you know what I mean. So I

755
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: decided to take Jim's offer. He very much used the

756
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: fact that he owned two Channel as a way to

757
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: convince me, you know, like that he is the originator

758
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: of all the chans and he can help. And I

759
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: didn't really totally understand it when I agreed. The extent

760
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: to which here Yuki hated him and the extent to

761
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: which he most likely stole to Channel, and the agreement

762
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: is basically, he'll move you to the Philippines, he'll pay

763
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: you a salary and uh and fund everything. Right Basically,

764
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: that's correct, he did not buy h en like itself. Yea.

765
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: What he did was I transferred the data to his

766
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: servers and then he moved me to the Philippines and

767
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 1: paid me to be its admin. Basically, so he took

768
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: all of the liability by transferring the data to his

769
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: data center. And eventually in two thousand fifteen January, only

770
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: a few months later, he took over in um at

771
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: the end of September, I believe, and then in January

772
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: of the fall one year he took the domain. Also

773
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: like there was a problem with the domain registrar, like

774
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: what they're experiencing right now with two Cows, where two

775
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: Cows doesn't want to register the their domain because it

776
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: is very bad press. So Jim had his own domain registrar,

777
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: or at least that's how he explained it to me.

778
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: He's actually just a two Cows reseller. He doesn't own

779
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: his own like registry with the with the I can

780
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: but anyway that that doesn't really matter. So at the

781
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: time that was seen as very bulletproof. So Han, you know,

782
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: he basically said, look, use my domain temporarily, wink wink,

783
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: and then we'll transfer it back to your domain after UM.

784
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: After you know, you get your domain back. Well, I

785
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: got my domain back H and dot c O, but

786
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: we just kept it on the H dot net because

787
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: basically he had no incentive to transfer it back. So

788
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of a shady way that he got ownership

789
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: if you really think about it. Um. Yeah, And there's

790
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,240
Speaker 1: no contract or anything, it's just domain. Yeah. He doesn't

791
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: like contracts, and he doesn't. It strikes me the situation.

792
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: You know, I I hope you're not getting too personal here,

793
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: but you have some pretty significant healthcare needs. Um. And

794
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: part of this deal is he's putting you up in

795
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: a condo that he owns, and he's paying and also

796
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: paying for a nurse and paying for a nurse, and

797
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 1: there's no contract, which means he could take all of

798
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: this away from you and leave you homeless whenever wants. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

799
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: It's a very unsettling position to be. I can see

800
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: how you would take it and how it would sound

801
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: incredibly enticings like I get to move to just like

802
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: this wonderful foreign country and like live in a condo

803
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: and like get paid to do this for free. It

804
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: was enticing in October, November and December. And then you know,

805
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: when it came time to do go with this domain problem,

806
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: I had no leverage I could use to keep the domain.

807
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: So because he got total ownership. Yeah, that's that's in

808
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: an unsettling and like a really easily abusable position um

809
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: from his point. And I mean there were lots of

810
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: other easily abused things about my healthcare condition, like he

811
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: you know, there's a Q grifter named Neon Revolt, and

812
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: I guess he somehow got these photos of me in

813
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: a in a bar with Jim Watkins and other associates,

814
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 1: but they're not in the picture. And you know, you

815
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: can cut this if you want. But on that night,

816
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 1: it I was not really in control of what was happening.

817
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: They put me in a wheelchair that I can't even

818
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: push because it was first of all too big for me.

819
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 1: Second of all, I don't have the strength to really

820
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: push a wheelchair anyway. I have to use an electric one.

821
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: And the place that they brought me to had so

822
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 1: many like bumps in the road. Now, maybe a twenty

823
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: year old would enjoy going to a bar, you know,

824
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: for a few hours, but they kept me there for

825
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: like five six hours and took lots of photos that

826
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: I might have preferred not be taken. And you know

827
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: you can cut this, of course, but there was even

828
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 1: a part of that which you know, Neon Revolt basically published,

829
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: you know, without my side, that uh I could could

830
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: not even go to the bathroom because they wouldn't take me.

831
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: Like it quickly became distressing. Yeah, and that's just so

832
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: people have some context. The Q and on movement moved

833
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: colt whatever you want to call it, moved to eight chan. Um, sorry,

834
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: I'm really I'm really doing an out of order. Yeah, yeah,

835
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: well we we can. I mean that this all happens

836
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: in q and on moves to h chan and is

837
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: hosted there. Um. And you were, you know, not running

838
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,479
Speaker 1: the site at that point. But since in more recent months,

839
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: since you've become one of the major stumbling blocks to

840
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: h Chan getting back online Q and on people, including

841
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: this guy Nean Revolt, have targeted you very heavily, and

842
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: he's essentially doing It's the same thing as when when

843
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: there's a case where like a prominent person sexually assaults

844
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: a young woman and there's a picture of her like

845
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: laughing next to him, um at like a bar or

846
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: something that will wind up getting plaster like look that

847
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: she's smiling. She yes, that's exactly what they're doing. Exactly

848
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,280
Speaker 1: what they're doing. Yeah, you know they're saying, oh, he's smiling,

849
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: but they're not thinking that. Obviously. I was basically being

850
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: taken captive by three very drunk men, and if I

851
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: upset them, who knows what they might do to me.

852
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: So if they asked me to smile for a picture,

853
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: I'll smile, you know what I mean, But that that

854
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: shouldn't be seen as like evidence of happy and it's

855
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: or evidence of wanting to be there obviously, you know,

856
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: these days due to that, how that experience kind of

857
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: scarred me. I don't go anywhere without like an electric

858
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: chair and a phone with the sam that, you know, like,

859
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: I've taken precautions just due to how difficult that was.

860
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: You know. I don't go anywhere here without um, like

861
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: somebody who's on my payroll who can, uh like be

862
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: my advocate. Basically, Now, Frederick, this is maybe, in the

863
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: history of the show, the worst time to do an

864
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: ad pivot um that there's ever been. But it's that time.

865
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. Yes, that's no problem at all, no problem,

866
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 1: no problem, And I'm sorry if I brought up stuff

867
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: that's like, you know, not that I'm grateful to you

868
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: for sharing, like this is important context to the kind

869
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: of guy he is. Um right, that's what this is

870
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: supposed to be about, is the kind of guy he is. Yeah. Um,

871
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 1: you know what's not important context? Uh? These ads? Alright,

872
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: we're back um now, uh Frederick, Uh, let's we we

873
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: jumped ahead a little bit. I want to I want

874
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: to go back to uh two thousand sixteen. Um. Now

875
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: that's the year that the Splinter News article we've quoted

876
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: uh from a few times with Jim was published. That's

877
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: the first article that interviews him that I found. And

878
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: the reason this article was written was because two sixteen

879
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 1: was kind of the height of what I would call

880
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: eight chance success at culture jamming. The community there first

881
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: exploded as a result of gamer Gate UM, and as

882
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: I talked about a little bit earlier, the movie with

883
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: gamer Gate kind of metastasized into big chunks of the

884
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: online alt right UM and in the two thousand sixteen election,

885
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 1: they graduated from like focusing their activism on a pretty

886
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 1: niche area of interest gaming to trying to impact the

887
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: broader American political and cultural scene, and by this point,

888
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: especially on eight Chan, especially a Chance poll Board, there

889
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: was a very distinct, like heavy Nazi influence, Like so

890
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: it wasn't you know gamer Gate. There was some very

891
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: far right and uncomfortable and even some like kind of Nazish,

892
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: anti Semitic stuff that you would see running there. Um.

893
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: But two, that's sixteen. A Chance poll Board is like

894
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: a fully Nazi gathering place online, and they start trying

895
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: to meme Donald Trump into office, but also more to

896
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: the point, trying to meme UM, trying to push some

897
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 1: of their fringe beliefs kind of closer to the American

898
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: mainstream by creating memes and then seating them into the

899
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: rest of the Internet to try to make them go

900
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: via role and their great success during this period. Their

901
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: biggest success was getting candidate Donald Trump to retweet an

902
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: image mac or they made of Hillary Clinton with a

903
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: star of David next to her head that includes the

904
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: words most corrupt candidate ever. Um. That's like the probably

905
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 1: the biggest hit that they had during that year. Um.

906
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: But there were a lot of other memes that they

907
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,240
Speaker 1: succeeded in, like getting other prominent political and cultural figures

908
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: to retweet um. And this you know, drew attention down

909
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 1: on a chan and a number of journalists, including myself um,

910
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: wrote their first articles about the site in that period

911
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: of time. UM, and we all got harassed for doing it.

912
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 1: I think the board's most responsible were Pole and baff

913
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: ament Um, which was a board kind of dedicated directly

914
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: to like doxing people. So this is what sort of

915
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: first draws mainstream Ish media attention. You know, it's not

916
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: the Washington Post yet, but Splinter is covering it and stuff. Um,

917
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 1: and they talk to John Watkins, Jim Watkins, jesus. Now,

918
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: all this drew a lot of press attention, as I said,

919
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: And the author of that Splinter news article, Ethan Chiel,

920
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: had was pretty heavily harassed when he first started writing

921
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: about the site. So when he talked to Jim Watkins,

922
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: and this is the again, the earliest interview with Jim,

923
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: he asked Jim about all the death threats and whatnot

924
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: that originated on eight chan, and Watkins responded, as long

925
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: as they're not making imminent threats of harm against someone,

926
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,399
Speaker 1: their speech has protected political speech, no different than Trump

927
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: or Clinton or Mr Smith or anyone else. Now, Jim

928
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 1: also addressed allegations that because of the racism on his site.

929
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: He might be racist himself, he said, I obviously am

930
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,479
Speaker 1: not a white supremacist. I go for days without seeing

931
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: another white face. I put up with racial problems similar

932
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: to that of colored people in the nineteen sixties, the

933
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 1: black people of the nineteen seventies, the African Americans of

934
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, the people of color of the nineteen nineties.

935
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: I am not sure what the politically correct term in

936
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 1: the twenty first century is. I have lived here in

937
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: this same place longer than anywhere else in my adult life.

938
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: I love my home. As I always used to talk

939
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: collect this, Yeah, he compares himself to the civil rights Yes,

940
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: you know, he would talk like this also in private.

941
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: He would tell me that it is that white people

942
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 1: in the Philippines have no rights, and it's worse to

943
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: be a white person in the Philippines than to be

944
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: black in the US. Like he would say that constantly.

945
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: So the fact that he said this to the press

946
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: is just you know, uh he he. I guess he

947
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 1: just has no filter. That's why he doesn't like to

948
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: talk to the president more. It's astonishing, It's it's really astonishing. Um.

949
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: And this this won't be the last time he does

950
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: something like this, but it's quite a take. Like now,

951
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: Watkins describes himself as overall a very boring person. He

952
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: claimed that he had bought eight chan because he wanted

953
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: to protect it. He said he'd seen all these other

954
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: sites at a big potential and then they go away. Now.

955
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: When Ethan from Splinter asked him about the issues he'd

956
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,760
Speaker 1: had since buying the website in two thousand and fourteen,

957
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: like what his biggest issue was, he answer was very clear.

958
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: Social justice warriors quote they called them s JW's. They

959
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: told me by email. They try to embarrass you into

960
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: turning off the channel. It's like, oh, there's a horrible

961
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: post here, will great report the post and will delete it.

962
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: Then they send it to I CAN and the FBI

963
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 1: and all these people, and it's like, come on, so

964
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: Jim Watkins, Yeah, um. Now, he claimed that people complaining

965
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: about death threats and violent racism on h chan, we're

966
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: creating those posts themselves on the forum. Yep. The people

967
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: like Ron always say that they always it's always about them.

968
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: It's always a conspiracy theory. When I got my death

969
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: threats that were posted on h chan after my second

970
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 1: article on them, Well, I was after my first article,

971
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: but after it was in a documentary on them. Um.

972
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: When I got those death threats, everyone on eight Chan,

973
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: when they saw me commenting on them, commented that I

974
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: must have created the death threats and posted them on there.

975
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: It's just, you know, it's a convenient thing to do.

976
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 1: They especially always say that about women. Oh, she just

977
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: just looking for attention. They it's a common line that

978
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: they take. And the fact that Jim Watkins, the admin

979
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: is taking it, you know, doesn't surprise me. Yeah. It

980
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: might help set the tone a little bit though, although

981
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, hard to say who's learning from who there. Uh,

982
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: they're learning from each other, that's the Yeah, that's probably yeah,

983
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: self reinforcing cycle. Yeah. Now when that article was published, Uh,

984
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 1: you and Jim were still working together. Um. And in fact,

985
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: up until that point when people had questions about h

986
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: H and you've generally been like the media point man

987
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: to answering that. Um. And I'm kind of curious as

988
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 1: to win sort of those defenses. You started to believe

989
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: in them less, if that makes sense as a question. Sure,

990
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: so right, you're absolutely right. After two thousand and sixteen,

991
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: I was still in Jim's company. I was working at

992
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: two Channel, which is how I know now what an

993
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: important part of it it is for his business money wise,

994
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: like it's where all his money comes from even today.

995
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: So that's that. That's kind of how I know that

996
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: because he put me basically, when I wanted to quit

997
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: from h Jenney put me onto Channel. But yes, I

998
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: was still one of the only ones that would talk

999
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: to media because I just felt like I didn't have

1000
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: anything really to hide at the time. You know. Uh.

1001
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: I would usually ask them while I was still at

1002
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: the company, like should I answer this request? What should

1003
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: I say? And you know, they would kind of help,

1004
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: like sculpt you know, my answers. But I did really

1005
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: start to believe a lot of the I guess you

1006
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 1: can say rationalizations less you know. One of the rationalizations

1007
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: I had was that it's all just the American Constitution

1008
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 1: and the founding fathers knew that we all have to

1009
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: discuss things and the best ideas will fall out and

1010
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: the answer to wrong speed which is more speech, and

1011
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of rationalization view of looking at

1012
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: the world. Well, it became hard for me to say

1013
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: that to reporters because I knew as a chance admin

1014
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,919
Speaker 1: that I had never seen a single good idea fall

1015
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: out of a chance discourse like that just doesn't happen.

1016
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: Everybody's talking, everybody's making their own you know, political statement,

1017
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: but there's no resolution. Nobody's ever you know, the Nazis

1018
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: never said, oh, you know what, we're convinced socialism is

1019
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: the answer. We're closing our board. That doesn't happen, you know,

1020
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: Because so that was the first time I really started

1021
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: to doubt. But you know, as long as nobody was

1022
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: really getting hurt, you know, it was kind of hard

1023
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: for me to just go back on everything I've ever said, right,

1024
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: But of course after I saw how little they did

1025
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: after Christchurch and then after Poway, you know, it just

1026
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: started to build on me that I had to say

1027
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 1: something as somebody who is basically an authority on a

1028
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: chan and you know, yeah, I just couldn't allow Jim

1029
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: Watkins to get away with it, like to get away

1030
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: with doing nothing while terrorists used his website, so especially

1031
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: you know, after he did nothing after the first two attacks,

1032
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, now, um, when the years from

1033
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 1: about six nineteen, it's kind of when h chan really

1034
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: reached a significant size. Around one point seven million visitors

1035
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: a month. I'm guessing that would be its height, but

1036
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: you would know better than I would, right, that would

1037
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 1: certainly be a yeah. And the site was hard to monetize.

1038
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: Jim tried a number of tactics. He had a sun

1039
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: Craft of cryptocurrency, which you just could buy and then

1040
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: pay to elevate their threads on the site um and

1041
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: traditionally vaguely anti Semitic fashion. He called it the King

1042
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: of the Shekel program, which, if you don't know why

1043
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 1: using the word shekel is vaguely anti semitic, hang out

1044
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: with some Nazis on the internet for a day. You'll

1045
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: hear the word a thousand times along with yeah, oh boy,

1046
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: yeah um now. Jim also launched books dot Audio, a

1047
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: book narration company that used Jim and a number of

1048
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: his friends and family members as narrators. In two dozen seventeen,

1049
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: he launched the I haven't had the heart to listen

1050
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: to any of the books he narrates, because he does

1051
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: a number of them. I can't imagine he's good at it.

1052
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: Just listening to his voice is not yeah, it's it

1053
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: seems like an odd business for him to be in.

1054
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: In two seventeen, he launched The gold Water, a bad

1055
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: news website with the slogan band biased and Honest. Jim

1056
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: Watkins showed up in some of the videos under the

1057
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: pseudonym Jim Cherney. Uh. And here's the welcome message he

1058
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 1: hosted when he launched the site, Welcome to the Goldwater,

1059
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: where we provide an informative view on today's alternative news headlines.

1060
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: If you like a video, share it with your friends,

1061
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 1: Stay up to date by subscribing to our channel, and

1062
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: visit the Goldwater dot com for in depth articles. His

1063
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: voice is very um uh. It's an interesting tactic, like

1064
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 1: he's introducing this new side of his kind of like

1065
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 1: you would a classic sort of media company. Like he's

1066
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: not trying to be like hip or or or use

1067
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: internet lingo or like like aim it at the kind

1068
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: of people who use eight chan. But he's clearly he

1069
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 1: wants The Goldwater to be like a news site that

1070
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: they use. And it's just it's odd to me that

1071
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 1: he would think that, Like, yeah, and that's mentioned The

1072
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 1: Goldwater was full of fake news. Yeah, yeah, including an

1073
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 1: article that said the planet New Bireu would destroy the

1074
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 1: Earth in two thousand seventeen. Now did it did it not. No,

1075
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: as far as I know. You know, I'm still on

1076
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: the planet Earth and I didn't hear about the planet

1077
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: ne Bireu destroying it two years ago. We're gonna have

1078
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: our fact checkers look into that, um before before we

1079
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: go to press. Please get the New York Times fact

1080
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: check on this. I really need now. Um. Yeah, so

1081
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,439
Speaker 1: Jim wanted it to be like the news gathering place

1082
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: for eight chan users, which is part of why I

1083
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 1: think his presentation is so odd. Um. Now, the websites

1084
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: chief journalist at coup was getting two of its reporters

1085
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: press credentials for the two thousand eighteen Singapore summit between

1086
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: President Trump and Kim Jong un, which is evidence of

1087
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: how easy it is to get press credentials sometimes. Um.

1088
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: They spent most of the trip failing to get their

1089
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 1: camera to function properly because they're not not not good

1090
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: at it now. Yes, and they also wasted a lot

1091
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: of money doing a bungee jong. I don't know if

1092
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: you saw that, Oh my god, what, Yes, one of

1093
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: the main things they did on Yeah, you can see

1094
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 1: Tom Ridell doing a bungee jump. I don't know if

1095
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 1: he deleted it, but they do a bungee jump off

1096
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 1: of building in the city, just as part of their

1097
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 1: coverage You're just for ships. Um. They posted it right

1098
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: around that time, and it was on the trip, but

1099
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: that was the only really actually cool thing that came

1100
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: out of it. So um. Throughout this period two do

1101
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: seventeen eighteen, Jim posted regular videos in his eighth Chan

1102
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: blog where he would do yoga He's way into yoga,

1103
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: read selections from books, and brag about his collection of

1104
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: expensive pens. He also really likes expensive pens. Now, for

1105
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: the next couple of years, eh chan continued to radicalize itself,

1106
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: and Paul went from mostly ironic Nazi posting and far

1107
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 1: right ship posting to un ironic neo Nazi. Extermination is rhetoric.

1108
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: I can't pick a point for you when that hit

1109
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: critical mass, but we all know what happened in March

1110
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, the christ Rich massacre. Now by this

1111
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 1: point you've been away from eight chan for a couple

1112
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: of years, and you've been out of anti technology for

1113
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 1: what a year or so? Um, a few months, okay,

1114
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 1: a few months you recently quit. Yes, the christ of

1115
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 1: shooting happened in March, and I had only like totally disassociated,

1116
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: and I think November two, Okay, so, yeah, you've been

1117
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 1: out for three or four months and the christ Church

1118
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 1: shooting happens. Do you remember when you heard about it

1119
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:40,919
Speaker 1: for the first time? Uh? Um, I'm pretty sure that. Yeah,

1120
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm I don't really remember. I kind of remember, like

1121
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: I read something about it on my phone and then

1122
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: my wife told me that I'm messenger somebody had sent

1123
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: her the video. It was really going around. Um, But

1124
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: I the h Chan connection didn't really become clear to

1125
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 1: me until I started reading like more articles about it. Okay,

1126
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 1: I wound up kind of getting onto that. I mean, obviously,

1127
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: I wrote an article about it a couple of hours

1128
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: after it happened, so I was I was pretty aware

1129
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 1: of that, um, kind of right away, and it was

1130
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 1: one of those things watching the rest of the world

1131
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: react to it. There were a number of reactions. I'm

1132
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 1: glad that I think most of the media, I think, hopefully,

1133
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,919
Speaker 1: in part due to the article I wrote, avoided kind

1134
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: of falling into some of the traps that the guy

1135
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 1: had put in his manifesto and avoided some of the

1136
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: more kind of sensational ship that that might have otherwise

1137
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: surrounded it. There were some bad reactions, obviously, like the

1138
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 1: Daily Mail posted the entire unedited manifesto on their website.

1139
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: That was a poor choice. But in terms of tone

1140
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: deaf responses to a massacre, I think the video Jim

1141
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: Watkins published three days after this footing has to take

1142
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: the cake. Have you seen this, Frederick? I have, yes.

1143
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: I actually recently republished it. He deleted it didn't. Um, yeah,

1144
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: it's on YouTube still, so we've both seen this, Frederick.

1145
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna play the first minute of it for our

1146
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: listeners so they can get an idea of the kind

1147
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: of tactics. Jim Watkins is taking condolences to the victims

1148
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: of the New Zealand shootings. So many pious folks lost

1149
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: because of psychotic rage. It is a sad thing that

1150
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 1: the mentally infirmed can have access to guns. It is

1151
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 1: just impossible to tell who will snap until they do.

1152
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 1: Going postal is such a sad thing in America. Back

1153
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: mark Richard Hilburn went postal. This otherwise normal man became

1154
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,479
Speaker 1: so angry that he shot two of his fellow post

1155
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 1: office employees, his mother, and even his dog. After that,

1156
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 1: the post Office took at should put environmental analysts on

1157
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: the scene to help make the workplace a better place,

1158
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 1: so that folks would not become so frustrated with rage

1159
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: that they would commit acts of mayhem and murder. At

1160
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: no time after this terrible tragedy did the United States

1161
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 1: Postal Service consider censoring the mail in order to stop

1162
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 1: announcements of terrorists or violent threats. People have been free

1163
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:31,960
Speaker 1: to say such things always. However, threats of imminent violence

1164
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 1: are not protected speech. They are criminal in nature. There

1165
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 1: is a certain dualism to this, whereas you're free to

1166
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 1: utter reprehensible and violent speech, yet you are responsible for

1167
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: the consequences of what you say. And now we're back, okay,

1168
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: so um, yeah, it's pretty remarkable. The goal of blaming

1169
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: illegal aliens for a christ Church shooting because of illegally

1170
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 1: immigrated Australian and New Zealand is pretty fucking remarkable. Absolutely,

1171
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. You know, there is no way to be

1172
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: more pro Trump than that statement. Yeah, Like, it's so

1173
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 1: pro Trump that maybe even Donald Trump would be afraid

1174
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:21,720
Speaker 1: to say it. Yeah, that's going. Like even his response

1175
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: to the shooting was better than Jim's. Yes, yes, now,

1176
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,520
Speaker 1: Watkins was pretty consistent with most of his press responses

1177
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,680
Speaker 1: in the wake of the massacre, he talked about how

1178
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 1: he deplored violence. He insisted h chan removed all illegal content,

1179
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,680
Speaker 1: and he made commitments vague commitments about getting better at

1180
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 1: policing the site for literal crimes. But while he said

1181
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 1: all this, he also adopted the slogan embrace infamy and

1182
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:48,920
Speaker 1: and blasted on the landing page of ah chan Um.

1183
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 1: So he it's it's clear he um. There seems to

1184
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: be an aspect of this that he might have enjoyed

1185
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: um now when the Washington certainly did. Yeah, him insight

1186
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:05,720
Speaker 1: into that. I just knowing him and knowing you know

1187
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:10,799
Speaker 1: that one of the main reasons he continued to operate

1188
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 1: a chans attention because as we've discussed, there's no money reason.

1189
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any significant money, you know. The only

1190
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 1: other reason would be that, like I guess Q and

1191
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 1: on is really true and there really is a military

1192
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: you know, uh operative posting on eight Chans. So that's

1193
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: why Jim is doing it. He's a patriot. But in

1194
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 1: all seriousness, there's no reason to run h chan um

1195
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 1: like monetary patriotic whatever. It's just it's just a drain

1196
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 1: on every one who has ever come into contact with it,

1197
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 1: even its users. It's a drain on them. Certainly it's

1198
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 1: a drain on me. It's definitely drained Jim's resources. But

1199
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,680
Speaker 1: he seems to like the attention he gets from it

1200
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 1: more than like he's paying more than should be expected. Yeah,

1201
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 1: he's paying for the attention basis exactly exactly, like it

1202
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 1: is costing him money to operate this site. And right,

1203
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:16,759
Speaker 1: because if you think about it, it costed a hundred

1204
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:20,720
Speaker 1: thousand pasos, which is like two grand, three grand to

1205
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: publish that naturalization petition and that's all out the window now,

1206
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: you know. It's like, and that's not the only way

1207
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 1: that money has been wasted. Think of all the he

1208
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:34,680
Speaker 1: claimed on the Goldwater that he spent fifty six thou

1209
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 1: dollars from the time of the shooting to the time

1210
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: of UM two September just trying to get eight gen

1211
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 1: back online. Geez. Yeah, So this is it's he's clearly

1212
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 1: getting something out of it that's worth at least fifty

1213
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 1: six dollars. And yeah, there's a quote he gave about

1214
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 1: that the Washington Post when they got to interview and

1215
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 1: asked him about Embrace infamy. Putting that on h chan. Um,

1216
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 1: and this is what he said in response. The newspapers say,

1217
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,800
Speaker 1: we're infamous, so we have embraced infamy. It's cute and

1218
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: it's appropriate. Weird to talk about Definitely weird to talk

1219
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 1: about your site being cute when people are asking you

1220
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: about all the massacres. Yeah, exactly, Like is it really

1221
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:25,800
Speaker 1: cute for the victims of the shootings to see that

1222
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 1: Jim is embracing the infamy that the deaths of their

1223
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: loved ones brought him. I don't think that's cute. Yeah,

1224
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: I think I assume you know. I'm not an old

1225
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:39,520
Speaker 1: man yet, but I am. I am starting to experience

1226
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: what it's like when you watch popular culture and stuff

1227
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 1: pass you by and you don't understand things anymore and

1228
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 1: you feel less relevant. Uh. And I'm sure that's even

1229
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 1: more of an issue when you're fifty sixty years old.

1230
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 1: I think most people combat that in healthier ways than

1231
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: paying to operate a chan like, Yeah, that might be yeah,

1232
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 1: a bad late life crisis there. Um, certainly, and um,

1233
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: it's definitely not cute at all. No, No, I wouldn't

1234
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 1: say so. So. Unfortunately, for a whole lot of people,

1235
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,400
Speaker 1: the massacres continued. The Pawe Synagogue shooting happened two months

1236
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 1: after christ Church, the Ol Passo shooting occurred shortly after that,

1237
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 1: and by the late summer twenty nineteen, more than seventy

1238
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: people were dead as a result of shootings that started

1239
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 1: out as eight chan posts. The site was finally dropped

1240
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: by most of its supporting companies like cloud Flare, who

1241
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 1: provided DIDs protection UH in the wake of the El

1242
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:37,639
Speaker 1: Paso shooting, and Jim was called before Congress to speak

1243
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 1: about his wayward I don't know steps on um he

1244
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 1: did more or less. He did most of his interviews

1245
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 1: with mainstream news sources during this period, and he tried

1246
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:49,000
Speaker 1: to tell the line that he was just standing up

1247
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 1: for free speech and that allowing hate speech was part

1248
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 1: of that. But as the Post reported, eight chan did

1249
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:57,799
Speaker 1: a lot more than just passively allow hate speech. Quote.

1250
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:00,479
Speaker 1: While Watkins has contended there was well he could do

1251
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 1: to rein in the anonymous user base, h chan often

1252
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 1: has appeared to encourage this hateful chatter on its site.

1253
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:09,479
Speaker 1: Its official rules, for instance, included special formatting codes. Three

1254
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 1: parentheses were used in anti Semitic messages to point to

1255
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 1: someone's presumed Jewish background to call them in parentheses out

1256
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 1: as the rules stated, while a single less than symbol

1257
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 1: was used to turn text pink, highlighting what the message

1258
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:26,240
Speaker 1: board called faggot posting. Um. And on a related note,

1259
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 1: here's something Jim said in his prepared statement to Congress.

1260
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 1: By the way, his son Ronald added both of those

1261
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 1: those were not part of h chan originally. So yeah,

1262
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:40,760
Speaker 1: those were Ronald's additions. Um. And, keeping the existence of

1263
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 1: faggot posting in mind, I want to read something Jim

1264
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 1: said in his prepared statement to Congress. Our company has

1265
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: built and maintained a digital form that is the place

1266
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 1: where opposing viewpoints and those of minorities such as the

1267
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 1: l g B t Q may express themselves free from

1268
01:13:54,600 --> 01:14:00,240
Speaker 1: the fear of their life. Oh man, uh, he really

1269
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 1: knows how to lay it on thick. He sure does.

1270
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,560
Speaker 1: He's he's he sure does now. His interview with the

1271
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 1: Post came after his four hour testimony in front of Congress.

1272
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: He told them that the ultimate fate of eight Chan

1273
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 1: was the biggest test for freedom of speech since maybe

1274
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:17,920
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine. And I had really recommend reading that

1275
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 1: post interview in full if you're interested in this because

1276
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 1: it's got a lot of great moments, particularly this paragraph.

1277
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 1: He appeared to grow upset minutes into the call, responding

1278
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 1: to one question by saying funk off, which he later

1279
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 1: claimed he had intended for his Uber driver. After being

1280
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: asked whether an eight chan advertising program this year called

1281
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 1: King of the Shuckle was anti Semitic, Watkins hung up

1282
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:40,320
Speaker 1: through his longtime business partner Tom Right. L. Watkins declined

1283
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 1: to answer later calls, so that's that's how the interview ended.

1284
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 1: He then mailed a postcard to Drew Harwell, who wrote

1285
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:55,240
Speaker 1: the article that said funk off on it. That is

1286
01:14:55,680 --> 01:15:02,519
Speaker 1: such a boomer like ship post. Fucking scard, Yes on

1287
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 1: a literal post, okay. Jim. Now, in the immediate wake

1288
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: of eight chinsty platforming, which happened after the El Paso shooting,

1289
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 1: he posted a video wherein he promised sorry for the inconvenience.

1290
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 1: Common sense will prevailed. Jim started to make bold and

1291
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,560
Speaker 1: bizarre claims next, like that his son Ron Watkins was

1292
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 1: building a protective network to defend eight chan from cyber

1293
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,639
Speaker 1: attacks and replace cloud Flare. This network, he said, would

1294
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:29,840
Speaker 1: be composed of vigilante hackers. As a press time it

1295
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: does not seem to exist. Yeah, that is his weirdest

1296
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 1: grift that he's doing right now is trying to convince

1297
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 1: them that he's somehow building a cloud Flare on like

1298
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 1: a shoestring budget. Cloud Flare's network is worth like millions

1299
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 1: of dollars literally, Like, the infrastructure that is cloud Flare

1300
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:56,519
Speaker 1: is millions and millions of dollars. You cannot just replace

1301
01:15:56,640 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 1: that with vigilante hackers and some you know, smart software, yes,

1302
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 1: some kids laptops like part of Like, there's a reason

1303
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 1: cloud Flare is basically irreplaceable for eight chan and it's

1304
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 1: because it costs, yeah, millions of dollars to build something

1305
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 1: that can protect websites that effectively. Yeah, it takes more

1306
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 1: equipment than a bunch of dudes laptops exactly. Yeah. Now,

1307
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:26,280
Speaker 1: Watkins hired Benjamin Barr to prepare him for his talk

1308
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:29,479
Speaker 1: to Congress. Barr was formerly the lead architect of undercover

1309
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 1: operations at Project Veritas James O'Keefe's operation. I just always

1310
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 1: like it when different subjects of different episodes behind the

1311
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:41,599
Speaker 1: bastards in our mangle. It's always exciting. Yeah you didn't

1312
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 1: know that. Yeah, sorry, you're teaching me something, and he

1313
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 1: just keeps scanting more and more girls. Yeah. Now, Jim's

1314
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:53,640
Speaker 1: most ambitious plan in the wake of a chanty platforming

1315
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 1: was to launch a communications satellite into space, which you

1316
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:00,120
Speaker 1: believe would be able to beam eight Chan around the planet. Now,

1317
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:02,639
Speaker 1: this seems to have been Ron Watkins, his son's idea,

1318
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 1: and Ron said, quote not an expert on space law,

1319
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:08,600
Speaker 1: but seems like such a setup would have absolutely no

1320
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 1: jurisdiction and be uncensorable. I remember when that was going around,

1321
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 1: and I thought he might have even just been saying

1322
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 1: it to troll the media, but his father might have

1323
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 1: believed it. Yeah, it's kind of impossible to say, yeah,

1324
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 1: because there was a recent live stream where Jim kind

1325
01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 1: of has a little moment where he starts to say,

1326
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, unless Ron's been lying to me, and it

1327
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 1: seems like he's worried about Ron lying to him like

1328
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:43,800
Speaker 1: quite a lot. So I'm sure this space plan was

1329
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 1: part of that. Now as of right now, ah Chan

1330
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 1: is offline. The earlier this year, really just like a

1331
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, they started trying to rebrand as

1332
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: eight Kun and relaunch, and they probably get up for

1333
01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:00,640
Speaker 1: a hot minute, like a day or so spread out

1334
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:03,120
Speaker 1: between a couple of days of going back up and down.

1335
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:08,920
Speaker 1: It's currently unavailable, um and is at this point still

1336
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,640
Speaker 1: be platformed. No way to know if that's going to

1337
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:16,280
Speaker 1: continue to be uh the case, but right now I

1338
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:18,840
Speaker 1: hope it is. Yeah, I hope it is too. Um.

1339
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure Jim will try if he can afford to

1340
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:24,560
Speaker 1: and find a way to bring it back up. But

1341
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:27,680
Speaker 1: the latest news that just came out a day or

1342
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:30,920
Speaker 1: two before this episode was recorded is that you and

1343
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:32,600
Speaker 1: Jim are going to have you a little bit of

1344
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 1: a legal throwdown. Yes, it does seem like it. Yeah,

1345
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 1: so's he's not suing you? What is the because it's

1346
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:42,120
Speaker 1: happening in the Philippines and it's this, Yeah, I'm not sure.

1347
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:45,120
Speaker 1: The legal system here is different than in the United

1348
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:50,760
Speaker 1: States obviously, so I was actually confused when I got

1349
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:54,800
Speaker 1: the subpoena also because usually in the United States you

1350
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:58,080
Speaker 1: don't get served unless you're sued, you know what I mean. So,

1351
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:01,719
Speaker 1: and it was marked as you know, so I wasn't

1352
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: like even sure what I was looking at. A lot

1353
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:06,640
Speaker 1: of you know, a lot of the Q grifters who

1354
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:10,240
Speaker 1: are like, oh, this is so great, He's getting sued criminally. Uh,

1355
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, even Ron Watkins posted, like retweeted a few

1356
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 1: guys that were talking about how I was that we're

1357
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:22,880
Speaker 1: basically tweeting about how like the state had convicted me

1358
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:26,040
Speaker 1: in the Philippines or had indicted me. Well, it turns

1359
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:30,439
Speaker 1: out that all that happened was that Jim Watkins wrote

1360
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 1: a letter to the um. Basically, he wrote a complaint

1361
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:40,200
Speaker 1: to the city prosecutor. And it's just a request from

1362
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 1: the city prosecutor to prosecute me. It's something anyone can

1363
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:48,200
Speaker 1: do basically, like I could write a letter requesting the

1364
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 1: prosecutor indict Jim on on a crime. So obviously I'm

1365
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:57,680
Speaker 1: taking it seriously. But it's not. It's not as if

1366
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:02,799
Speaker 1: the Filipino authority have decided to like throw me in prison.

1367
01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: That's not what happened here. Yeah, Jim Watkins role. And

1368
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:12,400
Speaker 1: the crazy thing about this is it is a libel allegation.

1369
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:17,640
Speaker 1: The king of anonymous libel is threatening me with a

1370
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:21,679
Speaker 1: libel lawsuit. And not only that, he's using a criminal

1371
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:27,880
Speaker 1: libel statue to try to intimidate me basically, and he's

1372
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:30,840
Speaker 1: threatening me with twelve years in jail, as is his son.

1373
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 1: You know, for cybercrime, criminal libel. That's what is in

1374
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:41,800
Speaker 1: the complaint. Obviously, I've wayered up. Um, we are going

1375
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: to write you a response to the prosecutor. Uh hopefully

1376
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:49,720
Speaker 1: it won't even get past you know, like hopefully the

1377
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 1: prosecutor will just look at our response, look at Jim's

1378
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:57,120
Speaker 1: like very feeble complaint. Like half of the complaint is

1379
01:20:57,200 --> 01:20:59,600
Speaker 1: just Jim is upset that I said he might be

1380
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:03,560
Speaker 1: going denial, and he disputes that he's going snial. So

1381
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 1: uh yeah. But because it's like not even a criminal

1382
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 1: case yet, I can't depose anyone, you know, like if

1383
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 1: it would be an actual case, all it is is

1384
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:20,160
Speaker 1: the city prosecutor is going to decide whether or not

1385
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 1: to indict me. And you know, my attorney says we

1386
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: have a very good chance of it not getting that far,

1387
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 1: like the city prosecutor most likely will throw it out. Well,

1388
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:33,720
Speaker 1: and that's where we are right now. And that's all

1389
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 1: I know about Jim Watkins. Um, now, Frederick, is there

1390
01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 1: anything else you want to you want to say about

1391
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:44,720
Speaker 1: the man or or or talk about him, any other

1392
01:21:44,960 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 1: particular anecdotes you think are useful for for people understanding

1393
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:50,880
Speaker 1: the guy. I know, I know, obviously you knew him

1394
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 1: for years. So yeah, what what I would say about

1395
01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:58,560
Speaker 1: what I would say to that in terms of just

1396
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:04,479
Speaker 1: particular anecdotes, is Jim, if he's claiming he's not a racist,

1397
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:08,639
Speaker 1: I would I would very much wonder about that, because

1398
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:11,679
Speaker 1: I have two anecdotes, but I'll just give you one.

1399
01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:18,439
Speaker 1: One time here in the Philippines, Jim Watkins had opened

1400
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:21,240
Speaker 1: up a new business and opened up a new office

1401
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:24,560
Speaker 1: for it, and he was planning on transferring most of

1402
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,720
Speaker 1: his local software developers. He has a little team of

1403
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:31,800
Speaker 1: Filipino developers to that office. So he was building up

1404
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: this office. He installed like four air conditioners, and he

1405
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 1: was just in the office seeing how the work was going.

1406
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 1: You know, it was freshly painted, the chandeliers were installed, Yes,

1407
01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:50,560
Speaker 1: he did install chandeliers. Um. And he noticed that he

1408
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:54,559
Speaker 1: only had three air conditioner remotes, but he was expecting four.

1409
01:22:55,240 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 1: So he went around the room and he's getting himself

1410
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:04,280
Speaker 1: more and more agitated. Where's the air con remote? Why

1411
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 1: can't I find it? And he's like, you know, opening

1412
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 1: every drawer and um like that. And then when he

1413
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 1: you know, can't find it, he addresses the room and

1414
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of local Filipinos there. I'm there, Tom

1415
01:23:22,439 --> 01:23:24,880
Speaker 1: Raydel is there. There's a bunch of witnesses to this.

1416
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:31,880
Speaker 1: And he, in this uh speech he gives, says, I

1417
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:35,840
Speaker 1: understand why the Spanish used to cut off the arms

1418
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 1: of Filipinos. I wouldn't do it myself, but I understand

1419
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:44,360
Speaker 1: it because you guys just don't follow directions. And I

1420
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 1: understand why the Spanish used to cut off your arms

1421
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:50,680
Speaker 1: to teach you a lesson. And he just went on

1422
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 1: and on and he's ranting and raving about how he

1423
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 1: is basically wants to be a conquistador. You know, I

1424
01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:01,360
Speaker 1: don't know how any other way to put yeah. I mean,

1425
01:24:03,120 --> 01:24:08,799
Speaker 1: my wife was a witness to that. And after that event,

1426
01:24:09,080 --> 01:24:12,240
Speaker 1: many people ask me why he stays here if he

1427
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:15,360
Speaker 1: hates the Philippines so much. I had to answer that

1428
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:18,360
Speaker 1: question from a lot of his employees because it was

1429
01:24:18,439 --> 01:24:21,479
Speaker 1: so confusing, and it hurt morale in the office a lot,

1430
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:25,760
Speaker 1: because people started to think, do do I think that way?

1431
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:30,080
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, like, yeah, definitely. It's no

1432
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:34,519
Speaker 1: way to have a good morale among office workers if

1433
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:38,760
Speaker 1: everybody is wondering whether or not the boss thinks that

1434
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:41,679
Speaker 1: they're racially inferior. I mean, what else am I supposed

1435
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:45,600
Speaker 1: to say? Um? Another another thing I would say is

1436
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:50,320
Speaker 1: if you're just giving me time to say whatever right now?

1437
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 1: In terms of the d platforming battle that I've been

1438
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:56,599
Speaker 1: working on for months now, you know, trying to keep

1439
01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 1: han offline because I believe that Jim Watkins is an

1440
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:06,799
Speaker 1: especially bad image board admin. I believe that your Yuki

1441
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:09,800
Speaker 1: at four chan does a much better job with a

1442
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 1: much better community, and that it's possible to have a

1443
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:16,519
Speaker 1: site like four chan or like h chan that doesn't

1444
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 1: inspire the violence that h N has, and that Jim

1445
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:23,519
Speaker 1: failed in his duty after christ Church to change things

1446
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:28,800
Speaker 1: to stop for the violence. That's basically my argument. And

1447
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:33,000
Speaker 1: you know, go ahead, yeah, I I what do you think?

1448
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:37,320
Speaker 1: What do you think could have been changed about ah chan? Like,

1449
01:25:37,439 --> 01:25:39,360
Speaker 1: do you think once the christ Church master Year happened

1450
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:42,000
Speaker 1: there was anything that could have been changed like that

1451
01:25:42,120 --> 01:25:45,000
Speaker 1: would have actually made a chan itself less toxic or

1452
01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:47,080
Speaker 1: was it kind of passed a point of no return

1453
01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:53,040
Speaker 1: at that state? Well, definitely the toxicity level would be

1454
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:56,160
Speaker 1: something that I don't necessarily know if it could have

1455
01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 1: been changed. And I'm not saying that h Chan is

1456
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 1: a its site, or that it should be online, not

1457
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 1: at all. But I am saying that there are things

1458
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:06,840
Speaker 1: that Jim could have done to make it so that

1459
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:10,400
Speaker 1: terrorists would not want to use his website, and he

1460
01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 1: didn't do any of those things after christ Church Um.

1461
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:17,160
Speaker 1: For example, he could have closed the poll board momentarily.

1462
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:20,920
Speaker 1: Four chan has a history of closing boards that bring

1463
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 1: big problems to the site and that threat and its

1464
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:27,040
Speaker 1: long term you know existence. So he could have closed

1465
01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:31,360
Speaker 1: the poll board for even a week, just as like

1466
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 1: a form of mass punishment, you know, against the community

1467
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:38,720
Speaker 1: for inspiring that kind of attack. He could have made

1468
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 1: it clear that incitements to violence are not allowed. He

1469
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 1: could have told his because he had Filipino employees that

1470
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 1: were moderating a Chan, he could have told them that

1471
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 1: they need to start deleting anybody that says they want

1472
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:57,240
Speaker 1: to kill or shoot or go on a spree, or

1473
01:26:57,360 --> 01:26:59,920
Speaker 1: that they think that one should happen, you know, any

1474
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 1: thing that's overtly violent. I don't know that Chan ever

1475
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:08,719
Speaker 1: could have been like a healthy site where normal people

1476
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:12,320
Speaker 1: go to express their you know, feelings. I don't know

1477
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:18,360
Speaker 1: that that's possible, but he's certainly, certainly four Chan shows

1478
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:22,680
Speaker 1: that you can have a community that's very far right

1479
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 1: without terrorist attacks. Constantly, there's a lot of unhealthiness in

1480
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:29,519
Speaker 1: various parts of four channel, but there's a reason it

1481
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:34,479
Speaker 1: didn't spawn what we're dealing basically, Yeah, because the four

1482
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:38,560
Speaker 1: chun administrators and moderators take a very hard line on this,

1483
01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 1: and the few attacks that have happened on Fortune, you know,

1484
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 1: there have has either been mass punishment or they've done

1485
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 1: a very good job at scrubbing the manifesto or anything

1486
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:53,680
Speaker 1: like that. You know, mostly what happens on Fortune is

1487
01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:58,840
Speaker 1: just like boyfriend will kill his girlfriend and post a

1488
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:03,400
Speaker 1: picture of the body. That's disgusting, but it's not you know, people,

1489
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:05,920
Speaker 1: and you know, it's also the kind of thing when

1490
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:08,760
Speaker 1: it's a community of literally millions of people, some of

1491
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:11,800
Speaker 1: them will be murderers. It's like that happens on Reddit too,

1492
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 1: And it's like yeah, yeah, four chan is ten times

1493
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:19,840
Speaker 1: the size of h Chan, even at a chance peak,

1494
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:23,640
Speaker 1: So that means there is ten times the crazies, and

1495
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:26,720
Speaker 1: yet they kept them under control. Yeah. It's it's very

1496
01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:30,760
Speaker 1: clear um that it doesn't really take a lot to

1497
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:33,760
Speaker 1: stop things, Like obviously it takes a lot to stop

1498
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:37,200
Speaker 1: a community from being toxic. But there's there's a line

1499
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:42,360
Speaker 1: between toxic and creates an international terrorist movement. And yes,

1500
01:28:42,439 --> 01:28:47,519
Speaker 1: exactly work to stop the international terrorist movement, right, um,

1501
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 1: And just as an image board admin for years, I

1502
01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:54,120
Speaker 1: know that there were many things they could have done

1503
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:56,640
Speaker 1: that they didn't do, and they admit as much in

1504
01:28:56,680 --> 01:28:59,840
Speaker 1: their congressional testimony. So yeah, they do. They do. They

1505
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:03,639
Speaker 1: talk about how they're like they're taking more steps and stuff,

1506
01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:06,000
Speaker 1: which like after the third shooting, like maybe there's no

1507
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:11,360
Speaker 1: more steps to take guy. Um. Yeah, and did you

1508
01:29:11,479 --> 01:29:14,840
Speaker 1: hear that before h And went down or eight in

1509
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:18,880
Speaker 1: the final time, it was being hosted by a Russian criminal. Yeah,

1510
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:22,519
Speaker 1: a Russian criminal two hours north of North Korea. Yes,

1511
01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:27,439
Speaker 1: maybe they'll make it to North Korea next time. Maybe maybe,

1512
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:33,640
Speaker 1: who knows? Yeah, Um, it's it's pretty wild. Um. I

1513
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:38,120
Speaker 1: I wonder kind of closing this out, Frederick, do you

1514
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:40,880
Speaker 1: think you'd ever create another online community? Would you ever

1515
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:44,160
Speaker 1: want to deal with that again? You know, I don't

1516
01:29:44,200 --> 01:29:49,640
Speaker 1: think so. I recognize from my experience with h And

1517
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:53,160
Speaker 1: that it's tough to run an online community. It's a

1518
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:56,080
Speaker 1: lot harder than anyone would think. There are so many

1519
01:29:56,240 --> 01:30:00,760
Speaker 1: crazies out there that can turn things bad, and I

1520
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:03,960
Speaker 1: just don't really have an interest in doing that anymore.

1521
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 1: I would like as much as possible to live a

1522
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:12,519
Speaker 1: quiet life without a JAN. You know, I don't understand

1523
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:16,639
Speaker 1: why jam is still trying to put it Jan back online,

1524
01:30:17,240 --> 01:30:19,720
Speaker 1: and I'm going to keep pressuring, you know, whoever he

1525
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: works with, just by telling them the truth about him

1526
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:26,920
Speaker 1: and his company and what happened on h JAN and

1527
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 1: why you shouldn't allow it to come back. One of

1528
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:31,160
Speaker 1: the things that I think is interesting and we don't

1529
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:33,360
Speaker 1: have to include this, Frederick if it's a little bit

1530
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:40,760
Speaker 1: too personal, but um, you uh found religion, and it

1531
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 1: seems like more than kind of at least based from

1532
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:48,160
Speaker 1: the other interviews I've read, the thing about your faith

1533
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 1: that was really kind of transformative to your life was

1534
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 1: less the anything written in the book and more the

1535
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 1: community of human beings that you found and interact with

1536
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 1: a daily basis. Now would that be accurate? Sure? Yeah.

1537
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:04,400
Speaker 1: I mean obviously that things in the book are very valuable,

1538
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:09,720
Speaker 1: but having a community is as valuable. Sure was this?

1539
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:11,920
Speaker 1: Was there not a time in your life before this

1540
01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:14,599
Speaker 1: where you had a community of people in real life

1541
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:17,160
Speaker 1: that you, you were spending time around like you are now.

1542
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 1: Unfortunately no, only my co workers. You know, people like that,

1543
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 1: and obviously they are not a good influence on anyone. Yeah,

1544
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:32,680
Speaker 1: I think that's I I as someone who spent a

1545
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:36,320
Speaker 1: lot of time growing up on internet communities as well, UM,

1546
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 1: you know, I see value in them. I'm not going

1547
01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:41,919
Speaker 1: to say like there's nothing good about online communities. Wonderful

1548
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:45,840
Speaker 1: things have been spawned by online communities are no doubt,

1549
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:50,519
Speaker 1: but I do think, um, there's no there. I think

1550
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:53,280
Speaker 1: when I when I look at the people who fell

1551
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 1: too far down the rabbit hole and wound up in

1552
01:31:56,160 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 1: very dark places, Um, I do think how how would

1553
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:02,160
Speaker 1: it have been different? And if they had found a

1554
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:05,400
Speaker 1: group of people in real life who weren't toxic and

1555
01:32:05,479 --> 01:32:09,439
Speaker 1: we're supportive that they could like, I think that would

1556
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:12,320
Speaker 1: I think that pulls almost anybody out of that kind

1557
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:16,479
Speaker 1: of spiral. I really do. Um. Yeah, do you mind

1558
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:20,080
Speaker 1: before we close if I just um say how people

1559
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:24,639
Speaker 1: can help with our d platform and efforts sort of? Absolutely? Okay, good,

1560
01:32:25,080 --> 01:32:28,720
Speaker 1: So right now two Cows is the main one that

1561
01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:32,639
Speaker 1: I'm trying to deal with. They put a coon dot

1562
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 1: net into client hold. Basically it means that they're not

1563
01:32:37,520 --> 01:32:40,559
Speaker 1: allowing the d n s to resolve, but they haven't

1564
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:44,400
Speaker 1: released a statement as to why, and Anti Technology is

1565
01:32:44,439 --> 01:32:47,280
Speaker 1: still a reseller of Two Cows as far as I know,

1566
01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 1: So I would really like a statement from Two Cows

1567
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:55,080
Speaker 1: just why why did they decide to do this, And

1568
01:32:55,240 --> 01:32:58,599
Speaker 1: I hope it's for the right reasons, And I hope

1569
01:32:59,320 --> 01:33:04,040
Speaker 1: that they will also not allow Anti Technology to be

1570
01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:08,280
Speaker 1: a Two Cows reseller. That they will because basically Anti

1571
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:13,760
Speaker 1: Technology broke there, broke their agreement because they blocked a

1572
01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:17,680
Speaker 1: dot net Jim moved e c h dot net over

1573
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:21,200
Speaker 1: to rob monsters epic, and then they registered eight coon

1574
01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:24,520
Speaker 1: dot net on Two Cows again via their Anti Technology

1575
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:28,040
Speaker 1: reseller account, So that should be a no go. And

1576
01:33:29,040 --> 01:33:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, I would just encourage people to tell Two

1577
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:35,519
Speaker 1: Cows that we are all very curious why they put

1578
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:38,679
Speaker 1: it in client hold, and we would like a statement

1579
01:33:38,840 --> 01:33:43,840
Speaker 1: just that basically they should number one not give the

1580
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:47,840
Speaker 1: domain to Jim Watkins. They should not give him the

1581
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:50,559
Speaker 1: domain so that he can keep running or at least

1582
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:54,600
Speaker 1: trying to run his h Chan replacement. H Chan is

1583
01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:57,560
Speaker 1: not what the world needs right now. It spawned a

1584
01:33:57,640 --> 01:34:01,160
Speaker 1: multiple terrorist attacks as this episode and we talked about

1585
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 1: so Yeah, basically I would encourage people to email two

1586
01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:10,639
Speaker 1: Cows and just tell them, you know, don't give Jim

1587
01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:15,479
Speaker 1: back his a coon dot net domain. Uh, and don't

1588
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:18,240
Speaker 1: let him be an anti technology reseller. Why do you

1589
01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 1: want to work with these people? And yeah, you know,

1590
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:23,080
Speaker 1: if you want to look up Two Cows, you can

1591
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:25,280
Speaker 1: find obviously their website if you google their name, but

1592
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:28,080
Speaker 1: you can also find them on Twitter at at two Cows. Um,

1593
01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure, uh if you if you have feelings to

1594
01:34:32,320 --> 01:34:35,200
Speaker 1: share with them, Um, I think that would be helpful.

1595
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:38,280
Speaker 1: And of course my Twitter, I'm always keeping track of

1596
01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:42,479
Speaker 1: the latest developments. Who's hosting h so that's at h

1597
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:46,360
Speaker 1: W Underscore b e A T Underscore t h A

1598
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 1: T h W beat that and uh, I am on

1599
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 1: Twitter at I right? Okay, you can find this website

1600
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:56,519
Speaker 1: or the website for this podcast Behind the Bastards dot com.

1601
01:34:56,600 --> 01:34:58,160
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram and at

1602
01:34:58,200 --> 01:35:01,840
Speaker 1: Bastards pod and you and buy shirts if you're naked

1603
01:35:02,120 --> 01:35:05,280
Speaker 1: in need to be covered very quickly at t public

1604
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:08,920
Speaker 1: Behind the Pastords. Uh, Frederick, anything else before we roll

1605
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:12,280
Speaker 1: out into the sunset? No, thank you? Very much for

1606
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:16,920
Speaker 1: having me on, Thanks for being on, man H