1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to Prognosis. I'm Laura Carlson. It's day two hundred 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: and eighty four since coronavirus was declared a global pandemic. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: Today's main story. The first vaccines against COVID nineteen aren't 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: just a landmark in the fight against the pandemic. They're 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: also the stepping stone for an unconventional technology that could 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: one day defeat other ailments that have eluded doctors from 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: cancer to heart disease. But first, here's what happened in 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: virus news today. UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson imposed tougher 9 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: regulations across a swath of England in an effort to 10 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: rein in the mutant strain of coronavirus that has spread 11 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: across the country. South Korea and the Philippines moved to 12 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: temporarily suspend UK lights, while Japan is strengthening entry regulations 13 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: for people traveling from Britain. Air travel from Britain to 14 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: France resumed after a two day halt, although with eligibility 15 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: restrictions and a virus testing requirement. Italy uncovered the new 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen strain in an infected person with no apparent 17 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: links to the UK Canada's public health authorities approved Maderna's 18 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: coronavirus vaccine, the second to be licensed in the country 19 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: that secured more doses per person than any other. Approval 20 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: of the MODERNA shot will allow Canada to expand its 21 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: vaccination campaign beyond inoculation sites and urban centers. Canada's northern 22 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: regions have specifically requested Maderna doses due to its less 23 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: cumbersome refrigeration requirements. Fiser and partner Bio and Tech agreed 24 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: to double the supply of their covid en vaccine to 25 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: the US. The new agreement brings the total number of 26 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: doses to be delivered to the US to two hundred million, 27 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: the companies announced Wednesday. The drugmakers expect to deliver all 28 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: the doses by July. Also in the US, President Donald 29 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: Trump injected confusion into the outlook for economic relief from 30 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: the pandemic. On Tuesday night, the President demanded changes to 31 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: the bipartisan legislation approved by Congress less than twenty four 32 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: hours earlier, calling for an increase in the stimulus checks 33 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: due to go out to most Americans to two thousand 34 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: dollars from the agreed upon amount of six hundred dollars. 35 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: If the President doesn't sign the legislation by December, government 36 00:02:50,639 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: funding will lapse after midnight that day. And now for 37 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: today's main story. Both of the approved COVID nineteen vaccines, 38 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: developed by Maderna and the Fiser and Bio and Tech Partnership, 39 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: use genetic material called messenger RNA to effectively transform the 40 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: body's own cells into vaccine factories. This approach is a 41 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: first for vaccines. It relies on decades of clinical research 42 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: into whether messenger RNA technology can be used to treat 43 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: a broad range of ailments, from cancer to the seasonal flu. 44 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: I spoke to Naomi Krasky about whether the validation of 45 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: this breakthrough technology during COVID nineteen could bring about a 46 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: whole new field of medicine. The rapid development of the 47 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: FISER and the MODERNA vaccines has brought a lot of 48 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: attention to m RNA or messenger rn, a technology which 49 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: hasn't been used before in vaccines. I was hoping you 50 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: might give us just a maybe brief overview how messenger 51 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: RNA vaccines work. So these vaccines, I mean, you're right, 52 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: this is a new type of vaccine, and they used 53 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: this genetic material called messenger RNA. This is a single 54 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: stranded molecule that's complementary to one of the DNA strands 55 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: of a gene. This genetic material is essentially what it 56 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: does is transform the body's own cells into vaccine factories. 57 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: And this is something that has been looked at for 58 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: a couple of decades. It took quite a while to 59 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: figure out how to use this effectively. It has been 60 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: studied for a range of potential uses UM and you 61 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: know wound up UM being of effective for the first 62 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: time UM in clinical experiments for COVID nineteen. So maybe 63 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: you can break down what gives m RNA technology the 64 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: edge over conventional approaches to developing vaccines UM, either in 65 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: terms of COVID nineteen or with regard to other diseases. 66 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: So in terms of COVID nineteen, this was sort of 67 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: an ideal test case in some ways for m RNA vaccines. 68 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: The thing that really can make mRNA vaccines different UM. 69 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: There are one obvious thing that's different about them is 70 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: that they can be very quick to develop. And so 71 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: for you know, when COVID nineteen emerged, these companies Moderna 72 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: and BioNTech were able to look at the sequence the 73 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: genetic sequence for the virus in January and start working 74 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: on vaccines at that point, and really then with unprecedented 75 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: speed they were able to come up with good vaccine candidates, 76 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: test those candidates. I mean, in the case of bion Tech, 77 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:17,119 Speaker 1: they even did UM early human trials on a range 78 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: of different candidates. UM. Their early stage trial was sort 79 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: of a big science experiment in itself to see which 80 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: of these candidates might work the best UM and then 81 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: do massive late stage studies with tens of thousands of 82 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: people all on in a really compressed timeline. And part 83 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: of the reason that they could do that is because 84 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: the early part of coming up with a potential vaccine 85 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: is very quick with m R and A therapeutics compared 86 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: to other types of conventional vaccines. Now, you mentioned that 87 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: the use of m R and A technology had been 88 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: undergoing research for many other diseases, obviously prior to the 89 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: emergence of COVID nineteen. I was just wondering if you 90 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: might go into some of the other diseases that mRNA 91 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: technology could be applied to. One big potential use, and 92 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: actually the main use that the Fiser partner, BioNTech, had 93 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: been looking at prior to covid and is cancer. And 94 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: this is you know, a different way of using an 95 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: m RNA vaccine than in an infectious disease. In this 96 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: case kind of put simply, UM, you're trying to alert 97 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: the immune system to the different things that are in 98 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: cancer cells so that the immune system will attack the cancer. 99 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: It's it's using the mr ANDA vaccine as a therapeutic 100 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: instead of as a vaccine defense against infectious disease. If 101 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, this is something that 102 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: has been looked at for two decades UM and it's 103 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: really a potential coming to fruition um in the next 104 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: couple of years as well if it works, and whether 105 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: it works is still still unclear. Just because this type 106 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: of vaccine works for the coronavirus doesn't necessarily mean that 107 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: it will work against a tumor. And beyond cancer, what 108 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: are some of the other applications UM besides the coronavirus 109 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: as far as treating diseases. So one that really obvious 110 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: application would be any other type of vaccine or infectious disease. 111 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: One potential use and this is something that's already been 112 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: looked at UM is for seasonal flu and actually I 113 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: want to say it was two years ago. UM. A 114 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: year and a half ago, Visor and BioNTech made a 115 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: deal together to work on MR ANDNA vaccines for seasonal flu. 116 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: It's easy to understand how mRNA vaccines might work well 117 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: for right because the flu virus virus has changed a 118 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: little bit every year, and this is why flu vaccines 119 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: need to be kind of tweaked every year, and they'll 120 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: put out a new flu vaccine every year, and there 121 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: is UM. You know, this takes time to do, and 122 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: so you have MR and A vaccines and you can 123 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: compress this time period of coming up with a vaccine candidate. 124 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: It decreases the amount of guessworth that you might have 125 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: to do. And so potentially UM they might be able 126 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: to make flu vaccines that will be more effective than 127 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: flu vaccines that we've had up to now. And that's 128 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: not UM, that's not unsubstantial. So Messenger RNA might also 129 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: help produce vaccines against viruses that have eluded conventional vaccine approaches. UM. 130 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: One program that Moderna is doing UM is a vaccine 131 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: against a virus that can cause birth defects when it's 132 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: passed from pregnant mother to UM to an unborn child, 133 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: and scientists have been trying to come up with a 134 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: vaccine against this virus for half a century, and it's 135 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: possible that the m R and A technology will will 136 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: you know, make this possible for the first time. We 137 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: could see a late stage patient trial starting next year 138 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: with this approach. Now that we have seen the use 139 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: and application of m R and A technology when it 140 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: comes to the COVID nineteen vaccine with Fiser and Maderna 141 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: and the approval thereof, has the development essentially of an 142 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: m R and A technology based COVID nineteen vaccine affected 143 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: the timeline of other treatments that are based on the 144 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: same technology. It's funny and that you should ask that 145 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: because it's sort of a two prompt answer. Um Like, 146 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: On one hand, I think that seeing this technology be 147 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: proved in such a public setting has definite, nearly increased 148 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: interest in it, and so you know, increased interest leads 149 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: to increased investment um, increased willingness um for funders to 150 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: back this kind of thing um, so that could push 151 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: timelines forward. On the other hand, you know, the pandemic 152 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: itself has also in some cases made it harder to 153 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: do clinical trials and made it more complicated to do 154 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: clinical trials. UM. So you know that that could have 155 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: a bit of the opposite effect UM in cancer. UM 156 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: we could see initial efficacy data from patient studies as 157 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: soon as the end of next year or early in 158 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: bion Tech has told me, so we could begin to 159 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: see a little bit of UM, a little bit of 160 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: a sense pretty soon of of whether this has a 161 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: broader utility. Looking ahead, what are some other potential application 162 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: sans for m R and A technology. So some of 163 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: these potential future uses I'm just gonna say, sound a 164 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: little bit like science fiction for now, and they these 165 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: are things that that maybe could work UM far into 166 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: the future. UM, this is not something that's going to 167 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: come next year or the year after next, or even 168 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: you know, just a few years into the future. Right. 169 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: But that having been said, bion Tech is doing early 170 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: research into whether m R and A could be used 171 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: to reprogram cells for regenerative medicine, and it's it's also 172 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: possible in the future that scientists might be able to 173 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: design targeted nanoparticles that can accumulate in certain types of 174 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: tissues such as bone marrow. Drew Wiseman, who's an immunologist, 175 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: at the University of Pennsylvania and who was one of 176 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: the early people to really to really look at this technology, 177 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: told us um And this might allow treatments for genetic 178 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: diseases such as sickle cell anemia and with maybe even 179 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: as a single ivy injection of a targeted therapy. Again, 180 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: this is these are potential uses that could be far 181 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: in the future, but just gives a little bit of 182 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: a sense of the potential of this approach if it 183 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: does indeed work in other disease areas. That was not 184 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: only Kraski and that's it for our show today. For 185 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: coverage of the outbreak from bureaus around the world, visit 186 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, slash coronavirus and if you like the show, 187 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: please leave us a review and a rating on Apple 188 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: Podcasts or Spotify. It's the best way to help more 189 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: listeners find our global reporting. And there's a quick note 190 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: for our listeners. The show will be taking a brief 191 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: break this Friday, December. The Prognosis Daily edition is produced 192 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: by to for fourhead Jordan gas Bouret, Magnus Henrickson, and 193 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: me Laura Carlson. Today's main story was reported by Naomi Kresky, 194 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: original music by Leo sidrin Our editors are Rick Shine 195 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: and Francesca Levi. Francesco Levi is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. 196 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.